Paul Spoonley: Massey University Sociologist on the UN issuing a warning over declining fertility rates

According to new data from the United Nations, fertility rates are on the decline and families are getting smaller.

The cost of living, job insecurity and housing costs are among the main factors preventing families from having as many kids as they would have wanted, new reports claim.

Massey University sociologist Paul Spoonley says women are also getting more educated and have more of a role in the workforce - and that's another factor.

"Women are having children much later in life - and so as we see that first child, the age of the woman for the first child is creeping up."

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
The un is warning that the whole world is facing
a fertility crisis as is. According to a new report.
It says that the cost of living, job in security,
and housing costs are preventing people from having as many
kids as they actually want to now. Paul Spoonley is
a massive university sociologist.

Speaker 2 (00:15):
High Paul Hi Heather Paul.

Speaker 1 (00:17):
I don't believe it's money. I believe I believe it
is a lack of time. What do you think.

Speaker 2 (00:23):
I think it's a number of things. So traditionally it's
been the level of women's education, so as that's gone
up to babies, it's been the fact that more women
are in the paid workforce. I think it's fertility. So
fertility in the sense of being able to conceive children,
because women are having children much later in life, and

(00:45):
so as we see that first child, the age of
the women for the first child is creeping up, and
I think it is money.

Speaker 1 (00:54):
Do you think it is money?

Speaker 2 (00:56):
I do you know know the cost of having children.
I've just looked at some on the cost of having
a child in New Zealand, and you do need to
make a decision about whether you can afford a child
or a house or whether you can afford to have
a child and see your career disrupted. And I think
that's particularly for millennials and generations zaid women in New Zealand,

(01:19):
they're beginning to make those calculations.

Speaker 1 (01:22):
But Paul, you yourself point to the fact that Hungary
said if you have four children and more you get
income tax breaks, like no income tax needs to be paid.
It didn't change the fertility rate. Sweden, which is far
more generous than we are when it comes to childcare
provisions and maternity and paternity leave, has the same fertility
rate as we do. So is it really about.

Speaker 2 (01:40):
Money, Well, that's one of it is one of the factors.
It is one of the factors. So if you it's
come through as a major factor in the last ten years,
the cost of living, the cost of housing, the fact
that you're not getting enough salary to cover.

Speaker 1 (02:00):
Yes, okay, but can I put something to you? Is
this just what people say when you say to them,
why have you only got two children and not seven hundred?
They say, oh, it's cost But is that what is
what people say different to the reality, Like if you
actually then made it more affordable for them to have children,
would they actually.

Speaker 2 (02:17):
No, they wouldn't. So what demographers agreed on, Heather is
that pronatal policies by governments you've mentioned sweating hungry actually
don't make any difference to the decision about having children.
So governments are really scratching the heads at this point
thinking how can we stop fertility decline?

Speaker 1 (02:37):
Why do we want to we stop at Paul, Why
don't we just accept that this is how it is?

Speaker 2 (02:41):
Yes, yes, I agree with that, Heather. The thing is
that what the UN report is which we're talking about here,
which has identified the cost of having children as being
a factor, and a major international survey, they've said there
are two options. One of those is that we work
longer so we're healthier. Why can't we continue to work

(03:02):
after the age of sixty five, which many people in
New Zealand are doing. And the second is we just
need to use integration to top up the shortages will
occur in the workforce.

Speaker 1 (03:13):
Paul, it is always wonderful to speak to you. Thank
you so much for your time. That's Paul Spoonley, Massy
University sociologist.

Speaker 2 (03:19):
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Speaker 1 (03:23):
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