June 16, 2025 • 11 mins
The Finance Minister made it clear she was unimpressed with the way the RBNZ handled public communication around Adrian Orr’s departure.
Reserve Bank board chair Neil Quigley recently revealed he 'regretted' the time it took to release information around Orr's surprise resignation.
Nicola Willis says the central bank could have provided some clarifying statements more promptly than they did.
"As soon as they'd worked through what they could say with the former governor, there was obviously significant public interest in that information. And it would have been in everybody's best interests for them to share that at an earlier junction."
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
As usual, Nicola willis our finance ministers with us. Hey Nikola,
(00:04):
Hi Heather, Now, Nicola, have you spoken to Neil about
his FIBs?
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Well? As I said last week, I did speak to
Neil last week to share my view that while of
course they were initially limited the Reserve Bank and what
they could say about the terms of Adrian Or's exit agreement,
once they had worked through that, they could have provided
some clarifying statements more promptly than they did.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
How promptly.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Well, I think as soon as they'd worked through what
they could say with the former governor, then there was
obviously significant public interest in that information. Yeah, and it
would have been in everyone's best interests for them to
share that in an earlier junction.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
How long did it take them to work through this
with Adrian.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Or, Well, that's a question for Professor Quigley rather than
for me.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
What was it like on the day, within a week,
within a month, within three months?
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Do you know? I don't know the answer to that question,
but my point is simply there were always going to
be Official Information Act requests public interest in this matter.
So as soon as they had worked through what they
could say, I think it would have been in everyone's
interest for them to come out with that.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
I mean, fair enough on all of that stuff. But
he didn't have to go out there in fib did he?
And he did, and have you spoken to him about that?
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Well, his view is that the statements that he made
on day one were necessarily limited, both because the funding agreement.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
They weren't limited agreed they would just outright FIBs.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Well, as I say, and i'd point you to his statement.
He has explained that he believes that both the terms
of the exit agreement and the working through the finalization
of the five year funding Great Agreement limited what he
could say.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Okay, well, what do you think as the finance minister?
Do you think that he was completely honest?
Speaker 2 (01:51):
What I think is exactly what I've just said to you,
which is, as soon as they had worked through the
details of what could not I know that in the
public them.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
To share that Nichola. That doesn't excuse him getting up
on the day and basically telling porkies, does it.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Well, I've been in a difficult position on this here,
which is that my view has been the employment agreement
was between the governor and his board, and so I
have at all stages sought to remove myself from those
employment discussions and how they were communicated publicly, and in
doing that, I have relied on the board to take
(02:30):
responsibility for both those things.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
That the reason are you trying to avoid right now
casting judgment on what Neil quickly said and the porkies
that he told.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Well, I have already cast judgment. I was pretty blunt
last week. I said, I think they should have pulled
their socks up on this one.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
You were talking about. Does I mean that's a completely
different thing, Nicola getting in one hundred days is different
to this guy who's the Reserve Bank governor getting up
and not telling us the truth.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
No, I think if you look at my statements carefully,
my point that I'm mate was that this information could
have been conveyed sooner. Heather, and you and I both
know it doesn't require an Official Information Act request for
public bodies to make themselves publicly accountable, and I think
this information being in the public domain earlier would have
been helpful to everyone involved.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Now, have you spoken to Neil Quickly about his term
as the chair?
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Well, as you know, he's already on a two year
term rather than a longer term, and that I have
previously spoken to him about that and the fact that
we are obviously in a period of transition at the
Reserve Bank, as a search for a new governor is
underway and we have also been replacing people on the
Reserve Bank board. So I've made it clear to him
(03:47):
that I view his role as supporting those transitions as
they take place.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
As in staying there for two years to see it
through or getting out of the way.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Well, ultimately that will be up to Neil quickly, because
my view is that what's required for the Reserve Bank
as an institution is that we have smooth transitions.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
Do you want to see him out of there before
two years are up?
Speaker 2 (04:07):
I have confidence in him doing the role as it
currently stands.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
And what I am interested in is the Reserve Bank
remaining a sound, respected institution and that it manages its
transitions at a senior leadership role level well, and that
the Reserve Bank has the people in place to do that.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Okay, let me ask you this, Given that he has
indicated that he's more than happy to stand up in
front of the country and just concoct stories, do you
trust him when he talks to.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
You, well, I trust that he found himself in a
challenging situation where he felt bound by the terms of
an exit agreement by privacy law, and that he was
then weighing that against his need to be publicly open.
And as I've said, I think I've been pretty blunt.
(04:57):
At the minute, he knew that what else he could
communicate would have been better if that had been communicated sooner.
This was all foreseeable so far as I can see,
and it frustrates me that we're in this situation.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
That was not a yes. By the way, so we'll
just note that what happened to you guys cutting back
the public servants and we're owned two thousand down.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Well, we're doing a great job. We've reversed the trend,
which was an exploding growth. And what we've done is
we've put the emphasis away from the back office roles,
the policy analysts, the admin roles, and what you are
continuing to see that there are people being hired for
is things like customer service roles. And that's what you'd
expect because we're a government that is focused on delivering
(05:42):
very good services.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
To how many frontline how many frontline staff have you hired.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Frontline staff. I can't give you a number right now,
but nurses alone seventeen hundred more, several more teachers, hundreds more.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
Correctly account how many of the We don't count the
teachers in the public servant numbers, do we?
Speaker 2 (06:01):
So that depends on whether you're using the broader public
service definition or the narrower one. The narrow that the
narrow one in terms of the core public service numbers, No,
they are not.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Can you understand why this is profoundly disappointing to people?
Because because we all understand, I mean, you'd have to
be an idiot not to see that the country is
in a really tough place. We're spending far too much money.
We're blowing out our budgets every single year, and this
is an obvious way for you guys to pair the
spending back. There are way too many public servants as
a reportion of our population, and you guys don't do it.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
But we are doing it. So there's been an eleven
percent reduction, and clerical and admind roles eight percent reduction,
and policy jobs, some increase in contact into workers, some
increase in inspectors, and any two down, well that's overall.
But still I think in eleven percent reduction and clerical
and admin rolls eight percent reduction policy jobs, that's progress.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
Do you know where you've taken us back to the
last time we had this many public servants March twenty
twenty three.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Well, he peaked in December twenty twenty three, and since
then the only way has been down. And so we
are making good progress. And I tell you what, either
every single job reduction we have made has been hollowed
at and screened at by our political opponents, who would
have it believed that the only way to grow employment
(07:26):
in this country is to hire more public servants in Wellington.
We haven't taken that view, and we've been pretty staunch
and continuing to make progress.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
How much more are the wool carpets costing us than
the nylon carpets?
Speaker 2 (07:37):
Well, I've heard your cynicism, so I've gone and double
checked on this. So actually, the purchase price for the
woolen carpet, I'm advised, is no more than the purchase
price for nylon under the old contract. What happened here.
I don't have the dollars, But what you care about
is are we paying a premium over nylon. Answer, No, no,
(07:57):
what happened.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
I know what the nylon cost, the cost forty three
dollars eighteen per square meter, and clearly the wall is
more expensive.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
No, what I've been advised is that the contract for
kying Aura is no more expensive than nylon was under
the old contract. What the terms are that they got
depends on how of course people showed up, because when
people get a big commercial tender like this, you'll find
that they shaften their price that they're offering. That's exactly
what happened here. Well, this is your chance, and I
(08:27):
think will came with their absolute shaffer steel. They shaftened
their pencil. That's good news for the industry, the one.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
To create eighteen per square meter for the wall.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
As I said, I do not have that number. But
what I have is a cart iron assurance. It is
no more than the purchase price for a nylon under their.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
It's not true at all. You know that what it'll be.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
You getting forty three from here this googled it. Yes,
but commercials, Yeah, but that's different from the commercial supply agreement.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
That crying or that is the crying of order deal.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Yeah, okay, in which case, as I've said to you,
what I've been assured is that it is no more
than you know what they're doing.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
They'll be taking into account they've waited it differently, right,
So price is only one waiting when it comes to
a tender. Right, so they're waiting other things like is
it good for the country?
Speaker 2 (09:15):
No? No, no, that is the straight purchase price comparison. Okay,
So how can even start counting all of the other
if it's one crank about?
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Well, if it's the same price, why are you the
second person I've asked and you guys can't tell me.
You can't tell me the price. The guy okay, can't
tell me the.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Price because we don't in my case, because I don't
get given those operational contract details, which are also commercially sensitive.
Is it no, there's no red here? Can I just
tell you your cynicism is misplaced. All got a chance
to sharpen their offer. They came up with an offer
that met on price and delivers a product. That is
(09:54):
what I'll tell you.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
What what can you go? Would you mind? I know
you're busy, but can your people, just as ask KO
will bring worth what the prices and come back to
us next.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
I'm just starting to feel for you and your colleagues
and your family who clearly are going to have to
have plastic carpet. Yeah, plastic acoustic panels. Plastic well as
a beautiful product. When given the chance to compete on price,
it can it delivers massive benefits. I don't know what
you've got against sheep farmers, but personally I think they're great.
(10:23):
And the fact that they've turned up with a really
competitive price it is good news for everyone. And there's
only one person who's upset about it, and it's here
the would appear that you're more of an optimist than this, Heathery,
and this is actually a one one for everyone, So
let's not rain on the parade.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Have you turned up with a cold and everything? Are
you working through a sickness?
Speaker 2 (10:42):
Yeah, Look, I'm sorry for my voice. Callers will not
be appreciating it this evening. Well, it turns out the
ministerial title doesn't make you immune to the viruses that
go around the world.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
We all appreciate a hard worker, so thank you for
turning up. Nichola Willis, the Finance Minister. For more from
Heather Duplicity Ellen Drive Listen Live and Talks. It'd be
from four pm weekdays, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
As usual, Nicola willis our finance ministers with us. Hey Nikola,
(00:04):
Hi Heather, Now, Nicola, have you spoken to Neil about
his FIBs?
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Well? As I said last week, I did speak to
Neil last week to share my view that while of
course they were initially limited the Reserve Bank and what
they could say about the terms of Adrian Or's exit agreement,
once they had worked through that, they could have provided
some clarifying statements more promptly than they did.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
How promptly.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Well, I think as soon as they'd worked through what
they could say with the former governor, then there was
obviously significant public interest in that information. Yeah, and it
would have been in everyone's best interests for them to
share that in an earlier junction.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
How long did it take them to work through this
with Adrian.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Or, Well, that's a question for Professor Quigley rather than
for me.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
What was it like on the day, within a week,
within a month, within three months?
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Do you know? I don't know the answer to that question,
but my point is simply there were always going to
be Official Information Act requests public interest in this matter.
So as soon as they had worked through what they
could say, I think it would have been in everyone's
interest for them to come out with that.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
I mean, fair enough on all of that stuff. But
he didn't have to go out there in fib did he?
And he did, and have you spoken to him about that?
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Well, his view is that the statements that he made
on day one were necessarily limited, both because the funding agreement.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
They weren't limited agreed they would just outright FIBs.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Well, as I say, and i'd point you to his statement.
He has explained that he believes that both the terms
of the exit agreement and the working through the finalization
of the five year funding Great Agreement limited what he
could say.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Okay, well, what do you think as the finance minister?
Do you think that he was completely honest?
Speaker 2 (01:51):
What I think is exactly what I've just said to you,
which is, as soon as they had worked through the
details of what could not I know that in the
public them.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
To share that Nichola. That doesn't excuse him getting up
on the day and basically telling porkies, does it.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Well, I've been in a difficult position on this here,
which is that my view has been the employment agreement
was between the governor and his board, and so I
have at all stages sought to remove myself from those
employment discussions and how they were communicated publicly, and in
doing that, I have relied on the board to take
(02:30):
responsibility for both those things.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
That the reason are you trying to avoid right now
casting judgment on what Neil quickly said and the porkies
that he told.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Well, I have already cast judgment. I was pretty blunt
last week. I said, I think they should have pulled
their socks up on this one.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
You were talking about. Does I mean that's a completely
different thing, Nicola getting in one hundred days is different
to this guy who's the Reserve Bank governor getting up
and not telling us the truth.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
No, I think if you look at my statements carefully,
my point that I'm mate was that this information could
have been conveyed sooner. Heather, and you and I both
know it doesn't require an Official Information Act request for
public bodies to make themselves publicly accountable, and I think
this information being in the public domain earlier would have
been helpful to everyone involved.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Now, have you spoken to Neil Quickly about his term
as the chair?
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Well, as you know, he's already on a two year
term rather than a longer term, and that I have
previously spoken to him about that and the fact that
we are obviously in a period of transition at the
Reserve Bank, as a search for a new governor is
underway and we have also been replacing people on the
Reserve Bank board. So I've made it clear to him
(03:47):
that I view his role as supporting those transitions as
they take place.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
As in staying there for two years to see it
through or getting out of the way.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Well, ultimately that will be up to Neil quickly, because
my view is that what's required for the Reserve Bank
as an institution is that we have smooth transitions.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
Do you want to see him out of there before
two years are up?
Speaker 2 (04:07):
I have confidence in him doing the role as it
currently stands.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
And what I am interested in is the Reserve Bank
remaining a sound, respected institution and that it manages its
transitions at a senior leadership role level well, and that
the Reserve Bank has the people in place to do that.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Okay, let me ask you this, Given that he has
indicated that he's more than happy to stand up in
front of the country and just concoct stories, do you
trust him when he talks to.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
You, well, I trust that he found himself in a
challenging situation where he felt bound by the terms of
an exit agreement by privacy law, and that he was
then weighing that against his need to be publicly open.
And as I've said, I think I've been pretty blunt.
(04:57):
At the minute, he knew that what else he could
communicate would have been better if that had been communicated sooner.
This was all foreseeable so far as I can see,
and it frustrates me that we're in this situation.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
That was not a yes. By the way, so we'll
just note that what happened to you guys cutting back
the public servants and we're owned two thousand down.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Well, we're doing a great job. We've reversed the trend,
which was an exploding growth. And what we've done is
we've put the emphasis away from the back office roles,
the policy analysts, the admin roles, and what you are
continuing to see that there are people being hired for
is things like customer service roles. And that's what you'd
expect because we're a government that is focused on delivering
(05:42):
very good services.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
To how many frontline how many frontline staff have you hired.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Frontline staff. I can't give you a number right now,
but nurses alone seventeen hundred more, several more teachers, hundreds more.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
Correctly account how many of the We don't count the
teachers in the public servant numbers, do we?
Speaker 2 (06:01):
So that depends on whether you're using the broader public
service definition or the narrower one. The narrow that the
narrow one in terms of the core public service numbers, No,
they are not.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Can you understand why this is profoundly disappointing to people?
Because because we all understand, I mean, you'd have to
be an idiot not to see that the country is
in a really tough place. We're spending far too much money.
We're blowing out our budgets every single year, and this
is an obvious way for you guys to pair the
spending back. There are way too many public servants as
a reportion of our population, and you guys don't do it.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
But we are doing it. So there's been an eleven
percent reduction, and clerical and admind roles eight percent reduction,
and policy jobs, some increase in contact into workers, some
increase in inspectors, and any two down, well that's overall.
But still I think in eleven percent reduction and clerical
and admin rolls eight percent reduction policy jobs, that's progress.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
Do you know where you've taken us back to the
last time we had this many public servants March twenty
twenty three.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Well, he peaked in December twenty twenty three, and since
then the only way has been down. And so we
are making good progress. And I tell you what, either
every single job reduction we have made has been hollowed
at and screened at by our political opponents, who would
have it believed that the only way to grow employment
(07:26):
in this country is to hire more public servants in Wellington.
We haven't taken that view, and we've been pretty staunch
and continuing to make progress.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
How much more are the wool carpets costing us than
the nylon carpets?
Speaker 2 (07:37):
Well, I've heard your cynicism, so I've gone and double
checked on this. So actually, the purchase price for the
woolen carpet, I'm advised, is no more than the purchase
price for nylon under the old contract. What happened here.
I don't have the dollars, But what you care about
is are we paying a premium over nylon. Answer, No, no,
(07:57):
what happened.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
I know what the nylon cost, the cost forty three
dollars eighteen per square meter, and clearly the wall is
more expensive.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
No, what I've been advised is that the contract for
kying Aura is no more expensive than nylon was under
the old contract. What the terms are that they got
depends on how of course people showed up, because when
people get a big commercial tender like this, you'll find
that they shaften their price that they're offering. That's exactly
what happened here. Well, this is your chance, and I
(08:27):
think will came with their absolute shaffer steel. They shaftened
their pencil. That's good news for the industry, the one.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
To create eighteen per square meter for the wall.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
As I said, I do not have that number. But
what I have is a cart iron assurance. It is
no more than the purchase price for a nylon under their.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
It's not true at all. You know that what it'll be.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
You getting forty three from here this googled it. Yes,
but commercials, Yeah, but that's different from the commercial supply agreement.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
That crying or that is the crying of order deal.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Yeah, okay, in which case, as I've said to you,
what I've been assured is that it is no more
than you know what they're doing.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
They'll be taking into account they've waited it differently, right,
So price is only one waiting when it comes to
a tender. Right, so they're waiting other things like is
it good for the country?
Speaker 2 (09:15):
No? No, no, that is the straight purchase price comparison. Okay,
So how can even start counting all of the other
if it's one crank about?
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Well, if it's the same price, why are you the
second person I've asked and you guys can't tell me.
You can't tell me the price. The guy okay, can't
tell me the.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Price because we don't in my case, because I don't
get given those operational contract details, which are also commercially sensitive.
Is it no, there's no red here? Can I just
tell you your cynicism is misplaced. All got a chance
to sharpen their offer. They came up with an offer
that met on price and delivers a product. That is
(09:54):
what I'll tell you.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
What what can you go? Would you mind? I know
you're busy, but can your people, just as ask KO
will bring worth what the prices and come back to
us next.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
I'm just starting to feel for you and your colleagues
and your family who clearly are going to have to
have plastic carpet. Yeah, plastic acoustic panels. Plastic well as
a beautiful product. When given the chance to compete on price,
it can it delivers massive benefits. I don't know what
you've got against sheep farmers, but personally I think they're great.
(10:23):
And the fact that they've turned up with a really
competitive price it is good news for everyone. And there's
only one person who's upset about it, and it's here
the would appear that you're more of an optimist than this, Heathery,
and this is actually a one one for everyone, So
let's not rain on the parade.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Have you turned up with a cold and everything? Are
you working through a sickness?
Speaker 2 (10:42):
Yeah, Look, I'm sorry for my voice. Callers will not
be appreciating it this evening. Well, it turns out the
ministerial title doesn't make you immune to the viruses that
go around the world.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
We all appreciate a hard worker, so thank you for
turning up. Nichola Willis, the Finance Minister. For more from
Heather Duplicity Ellen Drive Listen Live and Talks. It'd be
from four pm weekdays, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
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