Jaqui Maguire: clinical psychologist on AI potentially being used to fill mental health backlog

Amid an ongoing shortage in professional therapists, Kiwis are increasingly turning to artificial intelligence for help with their mental health issues.

Minister Matt Doocey has claimed up to 20 percent of New Zealand's unmet mental health needs could be solved using chatbot services like ChatGPT.

Clinical psychologist Jaqui Maguire says the technology is helpful in some cases - but it's unlikely it can completely fill the gap.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Ever do for clan?

Speaker 2 (00:01):
Would AI be the key to solving our mental health backlog?
Mental Health Minister Matt Doocy has claimed that up to
twenty percent of New Zealand's unmet needs could be solved.
This is mental health needs could be solved using chatbots
like chat GBT. Jackie maguire is a clinical psychologist.

Speaker 1 (00:15):
Hey Jackie, Hi, Heather?

Speaker 2 (00:18):
Is he on to something here?

Speaker 1 (00:20):
I think therapy AI is really helpful for life stuff.
If you want to make a decision, if you're wanting
to plan a conversation, if you are switched on with
critical analysis skills that you can go naturally helpful. You
know you're grounding or you're prompting me. I'm going to
use that and I'm going to think about that. I mean,

(00:40):
that's really helpful in terms of an AI tool. Is
it going to solve our mental health crisis? In terms
of we've got huge weightlists and people aren'nable to get
you know, meaningful support. I don't think it's going to
fill that gap.

Speaker 2 (00:55):
What about what about just triaging? So I was just
thinking about so, for example, had my second baby about
five months ago, so obviously would be experiencing what a
lot of mums will experience postpartum which is a little
bit of anxiety, maybe a bit of the blues or
whatever whatever. So I go along to it and I say, hey,
I'm having some anxiety babies five months old, and it

(01:15):
says yet completely normal. Try doing this. Would that not
be helpful for just triaging some people out who actually
don't need any more assistance than just knowing what's going on?

Speaker 1 (01:27):
So yes, I think being able to have anyone validate you,
including a chatbot, actually has shown when your name it
your tainment, So some form of validation is helpful. Being
able to be provided with in terms of strategies is useful,
But that also requires that the person that is being
validated and receiving their information is in a headspace to

(01:48):
use that wisely. Yes, Like if you logged on and
you were so distressed or experiencing such great post aatal
depression that you were psychotic, then you need a person
in front of you as here you not chatbot, right,
And I guess there's no way hard because you don't
know who's on the other part of the computer.

Speaker 2 (02:05):
Screen, so there's no way of knowing whether like can
we not triage it and go chat GPT has screened
you at the start, WHOA, you need some help or no,
you're okay, off you go. We can't do that.

Speaker 1 (02:17):
I think it would be useful if there was a
clinician to see you through that process.

Speaker 2 (02:21):
Yeah, but there is not right, not curently.

Speaker 1 (02:26):
In terms of you know, we would hope that people
in crisis are being seen, but we know from those
that are experiencing moderate to severe mental illness or who
are in great distress, many people aren't getting the support
that they need. And so, you know, it's a useful tool.
I just don't want it to be spoken about in
terms of it's our hell Mary.

Speaker 2 (02:46):
Yeah, is there also the risk that it affirms your neuroses?

Speaker 1 (02:52):
You know, it's interesting because I've used a free therapy
tool when I was having to plan a difficult conversation
with somebody, and yes, like I'm a clinical psych sitting
on the end of the computer and I can go,
and that's really useful. I wouldn't have thought of that
question and I can go. No, I wouldn't take that
on board, but like from that perspective here that it
was really helpful, saved me affession from going to see

(03:14):
someone in supervise and you know in soundboard that like,
I think it can be an excellent soundboarding. You know,
life challenge a tool. I think it can be really
helpful used in that forum. I just think we have
to go human beings a complex if you are experiencing
mental illness, if your life has got multiple things going on,
if you're in a state of distress. We know that

(03:36):
one of the primary factors of success in therapy is
a therapeutic alliance, which means an individual other person can
see you as a human being, can understand the complexities
of your life, can build a relationship with you and
AI Whilst it might feel like they're building a relationship
with you, their relationship is based on data, you know,

(03:58):
patterns and data, not based on you.

Speaker 2 (04:01):
Yeah, Jackie, thank you. I appreciate you talking us through.
It's fascinating stuff. A Jackie Maguire, clinical psychologist.

Speaker 1 (04:07):
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