August 4, 2025 • 7 mins
The Government's proposing to entirely phase out NCEA within five years - saying New Zealand needs a schooling system that sets students up for success.
It wants to scrap NCEA over the next five years, in favour of a literacy and numeracy test in year 11 - and certificates the next two years.
Education Minister Erica Stanford says it's worth creating something New Zealand can stand behind, rather than leaning on systems like the Cambridge Exams.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, good afternoon. So n CEA is scrapped. Instead, we're
going back to marks out of ten grades from ade
and students being required to take five subjects and pass
four of them if they want to get the achievement.
Erica Stanford is the Education ministand in studio with us. Erica, Hello, Hey,
great to be here. Okay, tell me what's brought this
on for you?
Speaker 2 (00:17):
I always knew as a parent, inherently there was something
not quite right about nca and then that data was
born out as the minister, I could see that too
many young people were scraping together random credits, not getting
deep subject learning. We just weren't setting our kids up
for success, and we need to be. We've got to
be aspirational for them. So we always knew that this
would we would need to do something relatively dressed up.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
So what is it that is wrong with the NCAA
that led us to that point.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
There's a couple of things. One, there is no national
curriculum that we teach to. We teach to what's in
the standards, So essentially the qualification drives what's taught. That's
totally backwards. Nobody else does that. And then we don't
require a certain amount of learning in each subject are So.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Basically what you're saying is, if you do maths, you
don't need to actually know all of these things. We
don't need.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
You could pick one or two bits of the maths
and one or two bits of the English, and one
bit of geography and a unit standard filling in a form,
put it all together, and that's your qualification. There's no
deep learning in one subject area.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Which means it's not consistent across the country, and we
can't be sure you've learned everything you need to learn
that's exactly right. So which five subjects are these kids
going to pick from or pick.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
We're working on the subjects at the moment, so that's
a separate path of work that we're doing. So we're
going through the subject areas where we're rewriting them all
the way up to year thirteen and just taking a
look at which ones that may be we don't need
anymore because not enough students are doing them, ones that
we can combine. But we're taking a look at that.
We're talking to the different sectors.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
So you remember, back in the old days pre NCA,
you had to take you sort of had like your
class A subjects, you had to take some of those
and then you could buffer them up with some kind
of other ones that were less important. Are we still
going to do the same.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Kind of thing we are saying in year eleven, in
your foundational year you do that certificate, you will need
to take English and maths. Most schools do that already,
but not all, So we are saying, actually all schools
need to do that. Those are key foundational areas of learning,
and then when you go into year twelve there'll be
your normal range of subjects that you can choose from. Again,
that's a workstream we're doing at the moment. It's very
separate to the actual curriculum and how we assess. How
(02:18):
we assess, and the curriculum is being set, and we'll
have subject areas that will come and go over time,
but the one thing that will remain constant is how
we assess.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Ok, and how prescriptive are you going to be about
what the kids are learning.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
We will have a curriculum that goes all the way
up to year twelve, year thirteen, sorry, and it will
lay out what must be taught each year, but within
that there is flexibility, so for an English for example.
We're not saying you must teach this book and this
text and this solid and this. We're saying, you know, look,
you have to teach a Shakespeare a teacher could choose
us on it a play. You have to teach a
nineteenth century text. You have to teach English a New
(02:52):
Zealand writer. They'll be able to pack and choose the
texts that they use, but the actual knowledge and skill
they build up will be prescribed in the curriculum. So
it's consistent.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
You want to get this out by twenty twenty seven.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
We will have the draft curriculum out by the by
term four for up to year ten, and then early
next year it will be the full curriculum all the
way up to year thirteen. But we're carefully phasing this in.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
I mean, that's fast, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
We have been working at pace. Yeah, we've been looking
at the best curriculum from overseas. We've been writing with
local experts here as well and creating what I know
will be a world leading curriculum. And that's what we're
aiming for.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
How's the teacher load? Have you heard back from them?
This is all too much.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Look, having a world leading curriculum and excellent qualifications and
teaching to those is a core part of the business
of the education sector. But I know very well that
they are. There is a very heavy workload, so there
are a number of things we're doing to try and
lighten that. I've already said to NZQA want everything externally
marked by twenty twenty eight. I didn't say that this morning,
(03:53):
but in saying it, reactively today to take that workload
off so all the internals teachers won't have to mark,
so no more self Well, that's where we're trying to
get to. There'll be somewhere it's hard to get away from,
like a performance, music performance or a science experiment.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Well, that's going to ease the workload considerably because I
would imagine that puts a huge amount of pressure on them.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Absolutely will, and that'll be a game changer for them.
But also we are staging this over time, rolling it
out very carefully because I want parents to feel confident
that who are you. I've got Year eight students who
will be the first cohort through that. We are very
carefully thinking about how we roll this out, how we
give teachers plenty of time to learn the new curriculum
and new qualification system, which is why it doesn't come
(04:30):
until twenty twenty eight. It sounds like a long way away.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
Yep, it was really not.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
But it's really not. Really it gives us time to
do that implementation.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
What do you say, I mean, I had a parent
text through before and say, Erica, what do you say
to kids who are doing NCEEA right now and are
going to think, jeez, this is an utterly worthless thing.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Well, I've said quite a lot today. It's certainly not worthless.
And students who are going through NCEA should feel very
proud of their achievements. My daughter is just finishing it.
My son is going to be doing it. He's the
last cohort. He's in year nine this year, so he
will be one of those students and he should feel
very proud of what he achieved. So hopefully if he
gets it, sure he will easy, He'll be fine. But look,
(05:08):
it is still a good qualification. Many students still go
into top universities around the world, but we need it
needs to be better, and it needs to be more consistent,
and we can aim to be more ambitious for our kids,
and that's what we're trying to do.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
Did you did you at any point think why don't
we just go with Cambridge or or IB.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Well, we want something that's New Zealand that we can
stand behind. And by the way we are looking.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Why do we That's like what I mean, that's silly
right to do our own thing because.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
We can be we can be the best. Because if
you go to Cambridge, there are things that aren't perfect
about that, but I be there is my kids could
choose to do IB. They're not a number of reasons.
We want to take what's the best bits of everything
from around the world. And believe me, we are looking
all around the world at what works and what is
best and what is doing well and bringing it here
(05:54):
and creating what will be the best curriculum I believe
in the world. And if you look at our primary
English and Mass curriculum already people are saying that it
is world leading. I'm very proud of that and that's
what we want all the way out.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Eric, I haven't got a lot of time, but you
listened to the show, so you'll know that I've been
calling you the MVP for the longest time. Right, I'm
not blowing smoke, and I mean it. But why is
it that you are able to get this much done
in eighteen months and other guys in their portfolios are
baughing around.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Well, I think everyone's working really hard. I mean, look
at the word you're shaving so much Brown and Nikola Willis.
The secrets to all of our success is that we
spend time in opposition thinking about this. I had my
six point plan ready to go. We hit the ground running.
We'd had a property thing that fell in there. It's
my seventh part of my plan. I wasn't expecting, but
I knew exactly what we needed to do. I did
all the research in our position around structured literacy, structure,
(06:40):
mass explicit teaching, the reading wars, and what was wrong
with our qualification. I knew exactly what we needed to do.
We've been moving with clarity and pace for the last
eighteen months and there is more to come. Next year,
we'll be doing twice yearly assessments so parents will know
how their children are going.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
Erica, thank you for coming in. I really appreciate your time.
That's Erica stand for the Education Minister. For more from
Heather Duplessy Allen Drive, listen live to news Talks a
b from four pm weekdays, or follow the podcast on
iHeartRadio
Hey, good afternoon. So n CEA is scrapped. Instead, we're
going back to marks out of ten grades from ade
and students being required to take five subjects and pass
four of them if they want to get the achievement.
Erica Stanford is the Education ministand in studio with us. Erica, Hello, Hey,
great to be here. Okay, tell me what's brought this
on for you?
Speaker 2 (00:17):
I always knew as a parent, inherently there was something
not quite right about nca and then that data was
born out as the minister, I could see that too
many young people were scraping together random credits, not getting
deep subject learning. We just weren't setting our kids up
for success, and we need to be. We've got to
be aspirational for them. So we always knew that this
would we would need to do something relatively dressed up.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
So what is it that is wrong with the NCAA
that led us to that point.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
There's a couple of things. One, there is no national
curriculum that we teach to. We teach to what's in
the standards, So essentially the qualification drives what's taught. That's
totally backwards. Nobody else does that. And then we don't
require a certain amount of learning in each subject are So.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Basically what you're saying is, if you do maths, you
don't need to actually know all of these things. We
don't need.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
You could pick one or two bits of the maths
and one or two bits of the English, and one
bit of geography and a unit standard filling in a form,
put it all together, and that's your qualification. There's no
deep learning in one subject area.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Which means it's not consistent across the country, and we
can't be sure you've learned everything you need to learn
that's exactly right. So which five subjects are these kids
going to pick from or pick.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
We're working on the subjects at the moment, so that's
a separate path of work that we're doing. So we're
going through the subject areas where we're rewriting them all
the way up to year thirteen and just taking a
look at which ones that may be we don't need
anymore because not enough students are doing them, ones that
we can combine. But we're taking a look at that.
We're talking to the different sectors.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
So you remember, back in the old days pre NCA,
you had to take you sort of had like your
class A subjects, you had to take some of those
and then you could buffer them up with some kind
of other ones that were less important. Are we still
going to do the same.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Kind of thing we are saying in year eleven, in
your foundational year you do that certificate, you will need
to take English and maths. Most schools do that already,
but not all, So we are saying, actually all schools
need to do that. Those are key foundational areas of learning,
and then when you go into year twelve there'll be
your normal range of subjects that you can choose from. Again,
that's a workstream we're doing at the moment. It's very
separate to the actual curriculum and how we assess. How
(02:18):
we assess, and the curriculum is being set, and we'll
have subject areas that will come and go over time,
but the one thing that will remain constant is how
we assess.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Ok, and how prescriptive are you going to be about
what the kids are learning.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
We will have a curriculum that goes all the way
up to year twelve, year thirteen, sorry, and it will
lay out what must be taught each year, but within
that there is flexibility, so for an English for example.
We're not saying you must teach this book and this
text and this solid and this. We're saying, you know, look,
you have to teach a Shakespeare a teacher could choose
us on it a play. You have to teach a
nineteenth century text. You have to teach English a New
(02:52):
Zealand writer. They'll be able to pack and choose the
texts that they use, but the actual knowledge and skill
they build up will be prescribed in the curriculum. So
it's consistent.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
You want to get this out by twenty twenty seven.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
We will have the draft curriculum out by the by
term four for up to year ten, and then early
next year it will be the full curriculum all the
way up to year thirteen. But we're carefully phasing this in.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
I mean, that's fast, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
We have been working at pace. Yeah, we've been looking
at the best curriculum from overseas. We've been writing with
local experts here as well and creating what I know
will be a world leading curriculum. And that's what we're
aiming for.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
How's the teacher load? Have you heard back from them?
This is all too much.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Look, having a world leading curriculum and excellent qualifications and
teaching to those is a core part of the business
of the education sector. But I know very well that
they are. There is a very heavy workload, so there
are a number of things we're doing to try and
lighten that. I've already said to NZQA want everything externally
marked by twenty twenty eight. I didn't say that this morning,
(03:53):
but in saying it, reactively today to take that workload
off so all the internals teachers won't have to mark,
so no more self Well, that's where we're trying to
get to. There'll be somewhere it's hard to get away from,
like a performance, music performance or a science experiment.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Well, that's going to ease the workload considerably because I
would imagine that puts a huge amount of pressure on them.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Absolutely will, and that'll be a game changer for them.
But also we are staging this over time, rolling it
out very carefully because I want parents to feel confident
that who are you. I've got Year eight students who
will be the first cohort through that. We are very
carefully thinking about how we roll this out, how we
give teachers plenty of time to learn the new curriculum
and new qualification system, which is why it doesn't come
(04:30):
until twenty twenty eight. It sounds like a long way away.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
Yep, it was really not.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
But it's really not. Really it gives us time to
do that implementation.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
What do you say, I mean, I had a parent
text through before and say, Erica, what do you say
to kids who are doing NCEEA right now and are
going to think, jeez, this is an utterly worthless thing.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Well, I've said quite a lot today. It's certainly not worthless.
And students who are going through NCEA should feel very
proud of their achievements. My daughter is just finishing it.
My son is going to be doing it. He's the
last cohort. He's in year nine this year, so he
will be one of those students and he should feel
very proud of what he achieved. So hopefully if he
gets it, sure he will easy, He'll be fine. But look,
(05:08):
it is still a good qualification. Many students still go
into top universities around the world, but we need it
needs to be better, and it needs to be more consistent,
and we can aim to be more ambitious for our kids,
and that's what we're trying to do.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
Did you did you at any point think why don't
we just go with Cambridge or or IB.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Well, we want something that's New Zealand that we can
stand behind. And by the way we are looking.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Why do we That's like what I mean, that's silly
right to do our own thing because.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
We can be we can be the best. Because if
you go to Cambridge, there are things that aren't perfect
about that, but I be there is my kids could
choose to do IB. They're not a number of reasons.
We want to take what's the best bits of everything
from around the world. And believe me, we are looking
all around the world at what works and what is
best and what is doing well and bringing it here
(05:54):
and creating what will be the best curriculum I believe
in the world. And if you look at our primary
English and Mass curriculum already people are saying that it
is world leading. I'm very proud of that and that's
what we want all the way out.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Eric, I haven't got a lot of time, but you
listened to the show, so you'll know that I've been
calling you the MVP for the longest time. Right, I'm
not blowing smoke, and I mean it. But why is
it that you are able to get this much done
in eighteen months and other guys in their portfolios are
baughing around.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Well, I think everyone's working really hard. I mean, look
at the word you're shaving so much Brown and Nikola Willis.
The secrets to all of our success is that we
spend time in opposition thinking about this. I had my
six point plan ready to go. We hit the ground running.
We'd had a property thing that fell in there. It's
my seventh part of my plan. I wasn't expecting, but
I knew exactly what we needed to do. I did
all the research in our position around structured literacy, structure,
(06:40):
mass explicit teaching, the reading wars, and what was wrong
with our qualification. I knew exactly what we needed to do.
We've been moving with clarity and pace for the last
eighteen months and there is more to come. Next year,
we'll be doing twice yearly assessments so parents will know
how their children are going.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
Erica, thank you for coming in. I really appreciate your time.
That's Erica stand for the Education Minister. For more from
Heather Duplessy Allen Drive, listen live to news Talks a
b from four pm weekdays, or follow the podcast on
iHeartRadio
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