October 8, 2025 • 11 mins
The Government says it has no intention of decriminalising drug use, despite a confronting new report.
The Drug Foundation paper suggest the Misuse of Drugs Act has compounded harm - and needs overhauling.
But Mental Health Minister Matt Doocey says change isn't on the agenda this term.
NZ Drug Foundation executive director Sarah Helm joined the Afternoons team to explain further.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
So a landmark report from the New Zealand Drug Foundation
delivers a stark verdict new Zealand's current drug lords our
laws rather are driving a surge and overdose debts and
continue to penalize users rather than offer support. The Foundation
is calling for a complete overhaul, urging the decriminalization of
all drug use and shift the focus to health and recovery.
Joining us on the line now is the executive director
(00:23):
of the New Zealand Drug Foundation, Sarah Holm. Sarah, very
good afternoon to you, Thank you very much for your time.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Gooday, good a.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
What does decriminalization mean and how would it work if
it ever happened in New Zealand? Can you describe how
it actually functionally works.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Yeah, Look, decriminalizations just removing the penalties for drug use
or possession essentially, so it doesn't mean you're legalizing and
making drugs available, but it removes those penalties for use.
And at the moment, we know that that's getting in
the way of people seeking help and one of the
things that's contributing to our very rapidly growing rugg issues.
(01:01):
And there's been heaps of evidence, so we've taken this
very seriously and looked across the board. There's two decades
of experience from Portugal, there's two twenty two countries that
have decriminalized drug use, even more that have decriminalized cannabis use,
et cetera. So we've got a lot of evidence to
draw from at this point and what does well.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
It's interesting because the text machines are lighting up with
people saying Vancouver, Vancouver, Vancouver, So what's the experience in Canada. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Look, one of the things that we looked at was
are some of the pitfalls where they've gone a bit further.
So one of the problems that's happened in parts of
the world is they've gone a bit further and gone
for legalization in a commercial model, and some of those
commercial models have resulted it appears in more harm. So
(01:54):
we're very much coming against that in this report. The
other thing that's been clear is in places where they
have done decriminalizations, that's the lower thing, if you like,
just removing those penalties. If they haven't invested in health
approaches like treatment, you know, aduction, treatment, prevention, harm reduction,
then that they haven't seen the kinds of improvements either.
(02:18):
So we're recommending that the things be done in tandem.
We've got a couple of reports suggesting how that kind
of investment could be put put to put to good use.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
So in decriminalization, the police are still heavily, you know,
working to punish, fined and punish and put through the
court system people that are manufacturing and supplying.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Yeah, yes, yeah, So.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
Would you would you support tougher sate sentencing and in
that kind of in that kind of area of drugs in.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
New Zeale, We didn't find evidence of that per se.
We did look at what other measures could be in place.
So here's the thing. If we don't do anything at
the moment, not only have things been progressively getting worse
from addiction to overdose fatalities, to the drug supply ballooning
out of control and new psychoactive substances all the time
in the last year, that has gotten way more worse,
(03:12):
if you like. And so if we do nothing, I
can guarantee you that our problems are exponentially going to
grow because we don't just have what's been happening over
the past fifty years. We now have an AI fuelled
drug supply chain. So we're going to experience much more problems.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
By an AI fueled drug supply chain.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Well, it is. The drug supply is developing incredibly rapidly.
And for example, just myself, as an anonymous user on
a social media platform, I have had the dark media,
a dark web, sorry, arrive in my inbox offering to
sell me things that I have no interest in buying.
(03:58):
So we are seeing quite a transition happened, I think
under supply chain, and that is going to ramp up
overcoming years. So we need to get more sophisticated in
our approach. We basically have a piece of law that
was written when culor ty they had just been invented,
and we now have a sophisticated AI. We are dealing
(04:19):
with very complex problems with a piece of law that
was at the time trying to grapple with what looks
at you from in hindsight to be barely any problems
at all.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
But surely if something pops up on someone's social media
and says here's some drugs, then you just don't click
on that, right.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
Well, no, things are changing quite rapidly, I think, yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
But just on that, I mean, I note you mentioned Portugal,
and that's often held up as a as an example
of decriminalization and investment into health and harm reduction. But
in Portugal it is the the numbers of overdose tests
has plateaued and is starting to increase again with these
new synthetic drugs that are entering the market, very difficult
(05:08):
to control and the danger their SRAH is when these
new synthetic drugs are coming to the market, if there
is a decriminalization aspect, very much easier to get hold
of and arguably harder to control.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
Actually that generally that isn't the case. So decriminalization doesn't
encourage drug use, and we've seen that across the board. However,
what you're pointing to is that it doesn't fix everything,
and so that's why we looked at what other measures
could work, and we're suggesting that some more flexibility be
included in the legislation so that as new measures come
(05:43):
to light as being efficacious, that are able to be
enacted much more easily. At the moment, our law is
very in responsive. In fact, it prevents us from doing
some things that we know right now could make a difference,
and so we also want to introduce some more flexibility
because we need to do more than decriminalization. You're quite right,
(06:05):
it's not a panacea. What it will do is take
some of the edge off, reduce those more acute harms
that are occurring, but it won't fix some of those
supply issues. So we did look around and see what
was there in cannabis. There's some really good evidence around,
you know, a very non commercial, very very restricted supply thing.
(06:25):
We let people in Act Australia there are to have
a couple of plants, or there's these nonprofit clubs where
adults who are in a registered club can share some
cannabis between each other. That seems to do the least harm.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
Isn't that kind of a problem. Isn't that kind of
the problem? Srah that there's a blanket approach where people
are looking at drugs as if drugs, all illegal drugs
are the exact same thing. So cannabis is very different
from heroin, which is very different from meth. So why
why why does it drug need a different approach? Is
(07:03):
decriminalization might work for cannabis but might not work for mes.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Oh well, the decriminalization uses one thing. Regulation is a
whole other thing. But I completely agree with you, a
different approach needs to be deployed for each substance. For
the actual use side of things, you're dealing with people
unless they're committing other crime which you can penalize them for,
anyway that you're dealing with something that's just hurting them,
(07:28):
and it basically just becomes this incredible amount of stigma,
shame and inability to come forward and ask what helps you.
You're asking for those problems to grow. Whereas on the
other side of things, You're quite right, we need to
develop a more sophisticated approach that applies a substance by
substance basis rather than any blanket approaches, which is why
(07:49):
we haven't recommended anything further other than a law that's
able to adapt in flex with new problems. You know,
this is not about endor saying drug use this is
the thing. So the thought has been always that if
you decriminalize, you're somehow endorsing that you're it's about liberalization.
(08:10):
For us, it's the opposite here. We want to see regulation,
safety and control in place.
Speaker 3 (08:16):
Yeah, so now things are changing really fast. You mentioned
AI before, but the whole when people talk about the
horror show that they're seeing in Vancouver and San Francisco,
and you know, a bunch of people that have been
over there recently are texting in and saying, you know,
it is terrible, just the amount of people the fentifold.
(08:37):
What about that for New Zealand because you know, we're
fighting the drugs that we're fighting now, but surely you
know the fentanyl crisis is coming to New Zealand very soon.
So exactly, yeah, So what are you seeing in thinking
from your perspective on the on the fentanyl crisis and
how to deal with that, because once again, that's a
totally different situation. Again, it's a sometimes prescription drug that
(09:00):
as being heavily abused.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
It's horrific, and we really want to avoid that here.
I think we all want to avoid becoming like those
parts of North America that are facing this, which is
exactly why we've put out this report because does it
not feel like we're already heading there. And one of
the things that we have noted this past year is
that for the first time, nitizines, which are actually more
(09:25):
potent than fentanyl, have been reported as having officially having
resulted in overdose fatalities here. So we really need to
act and we can't just think that doing the same
thing is going to work, and what has happened in
North America hasn't been because of those things. That predates
any of those changes. But what I would say is
(09:47):
that we really want to avoid any commercial models of
supply now.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
Just finally, would it be worse for people to be
on meth or fentanyl because often there becomes a drug
of choice that sweeps a nation. Is meth or fentanyl worse?
Speaker 2 (10:09):
I hate to put it quite like that, but I
would say sentinel results in the HEA give a lot
more fatalities. And the thing, here's the thing. When I
was over in Canada myself a year and a half ago,
I met with one of the heads of the police
force in British Columbia and I asked them, what would
you do if you could go back in time? Is
(10:30):
you know, kind of New Zealanders at this point And
they said to me, well, to be honest, we wish
we could have a safe supply of heroin, which was
their drug a choice at the time, because it would
have prevented people going onto fentanyl in the first place.
So we need to think more creatively and look for solutions.
We also need a law that allows us to adapt
(10:51):
because what might seem completely unpalatable and unrealistic right now.
In ten years time, we may need to deploy. We're
not suggesting that by any stretch, but what we are
saying was we do need a flexible law.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
Sarah, thank you very much for joining us. It's a
bold idea and appreciate your time very much. That is
Sarah Holme, executive director of the New Zealand Drug Foundation.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
For more from Heather Duplessy Allen Drive, listen live to
news talks. It'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio.
So a landmark report from the New Zealand Drug Foundation
delivers a stark verdict new Zealand's current drug lords our
laws rather are driving a surge and overdose debts and
continue to penalize users rather than offer support. The Foundation
is calling for a complete overhaul, urging the decriminalization of
all drug use and shift the focus to health and recovery.
Joining us on the line now is the executive director
(00:23):
of the New Zealand Drug Foundation, Sarah Holm. Sarah, very
good afternoon to you, Thank you very much for your time.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Gooday, good a.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
What does decriminalization mean and how would it work if
it ever happened in New Zealand? Can you describe how
it actually functionally works.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Yeah, Look, decriminalizations just removing the penalties for drug use
or possession essentially, so it doesn't mean you're legalizing and
making drugs available, but it removes those penalties for use.
And at the moment, we know that that's getting in
the way of people seeking help and one of the
things that's contributing to our very rapidly growing rugg issues.
(01:01):
And there's been heaps of evidence, so we've taken this
very seriously and looked across the board. There's two decades
of experience from Portugal, there's two twenty two countries that
have decriminalized drug use, even more that have decriminalized cannabis use,
et cetera. So we've got a lot of evidence to
draw from at this point and what does well.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
It's interesting because the text machines are lighting up with
people saying Vancouver, Vancouver, Vancouver, So what's the experience in Canada. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Look, one of the things that we looked at was
are some of the pitfalls where they've gone a bit further.
So one of the problems that's happened in parts of
the world is they've gone a bit further and gone
for legalization in a commercial model, and some of those
commercial models have resulted it appears in more harm. So
(01:54):
we're very much coming against that in this report. The
other thing that's been clear is in places where they
have done decriminalizations, that's the lower thing, if you like,
just removing those penalties. If they haven't invested in health
approaches like treatment, you know, aduction, treatment, prevention, harm reduction,
then that they haven't seen the kinds of improvements either.
(02:18):
So we're recommending that the things be done in tandem.
We've got a couple of reports suggesting how that kind
of investment could be put put to put to good use.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
So in decriminalization, the police are still heavily, you know,
working to punish, fined and punish and put through the
court system people that are manufacturing and supplying.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Yeah, yes, yeah, So.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
Would you would you support tougher sate sentencing and in
that kind of in that kind of area of drugs in.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
New Zeale, We didn't find evidence of that per se.
We did look at what other measures could be in place.
So here's the thing. If we don't do anything at
the moment, not only have things been progressively getting worse
from addiction to overdose fatalities, to the drug supply ballooning
out of control and new psychoactive substances all the time
in the last year, that has gotten way more worse,
(03:12):
if you like. And so if we do nothing, I
can guarantee you that our problems are exponentially going to
grow because we don't just have what's been happening over
the past fifty years. We now have an AI fuelled
drug supply chain. So we're going to experience much more problems.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
By an AI fueled drug supply chain.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Well, it is. The drug supply is developing incredibly rapidly.
And for example, just myself, as an anonymous user on
a social media platform, I have had the dark media,
a dark web, sorry, arrive in my inbox offering to
sell me things that I have no interest in buying.
(03:58):
So we are seeing quite a transition happened, I think
under supply chain, and that is going to ramp up
overcoming years. So we need to get more sophisticated in
our approach. We basically have a piece of law that
was written when culor ty they had just been invented,
and we now have a sophisticated AI. We are dealing
(04:19):
with very complex problems with a piece of law that
was at the time trying to grapple with what looks
at you from in hindsight to be barely any problems
at all.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
But surely if something pops up on someone's social media
and says here's some drugs, then you just don't click
on that, right.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
Well, no, things are changing quite rapidly, I think, yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
But just on that, I mean, I note you mentioned Portugal,
and that's often held up as a as an example
of decriminalization and investment into health and harm reduction. But
in Portugal it is the the numbers of overdose tests
has plateaued and is starting to increase again with these
new synthetic drugs that are entering the market, very difficult
(05:08):
to control and the danger their SRAH is when these
new synthetic drugs are coming to the market, if there
is a decriminalization aspect, very much easier to get hold
of and arguably harder to control.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
Actually that generally that isn't the case. So decriminalization doesn't
encourage drug use, and we've seen that across the board. However,
what you're pointing to is that it doesn't fix everything,
and so that's why we looked at what other measures
could work, and we're suggesting that some more flexibility be
included in the legislation so that as new measures come
(05:43):
to light as being efficacious, that are able to be
enacted much more easily. At the moment, our law is
very in responsive. In fact, it prevents us from doing
some things that we know right now could make a difference,
and so we also want to introduce some more flexibility
because we need to do more than decriminalization. You're quite right,
(06:05):
it's not a panacea. What it will do is take
some of the edge off, reduce those more acute harms
that are occurring, but it won't fix some of those
supply issues. So we did look around and see what
was there in cannabis. There's some really good evidence around,
you know, a very non commercial, very very restricted supply thing.
(06:25):
We let people in Act Australia there are to have
a couple of plants, or there's these nonprofit clubs where
adults who are in a registered club can share some
cannabis between each other. That seems to do the least harm.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
Isn't that kind of a problem. Isn't that kind of
the problem? Srah that there's a blanket approach where people
are looking at drugs as if drugs, all illegal drugs
are the exact same thing. So cannabis is very different
from heroin, which is very different from meth. So why
why why does it drug need a different approach? Is
(07:03):
decriminalization might work for cannabis but might not work for mes.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Oh well, the decriminalization uses one thing. Regulation is a
whole other thing. But I completely agree with you, a
different approach needs to be deployed for each substance. For
the actual use side of things, you're dealing with people
unless they're committing other crime which you can penalize them for,
anyway that you're dealing with something that's just hurting them,
(07:28):
and it basically just becomes this incredible amount of stigma,
shame and inability to come forward and ask what helps you.
You're asking for those problems to grow. Whereas on the
other side of things, You're quite right, we need to
develop a more sophisticated approach that applies a substance by
substance basis rather than any blanket approaches, which is why
(07:49):
we haven't recommended anything further other than a law that's
able to adapt in flex with new problems. You know,
this is not about endor saying drug use this is
the thing. So the thought has been always that if
you decriminalize, you're somehow endorsing that you're it's about liberalization.
(08:10):
For us, it's the opposite here. We want to see regulation,
safety and control in place.
Speaker 3 (08:16):
Yeah, so now things are changing really fast. You mentioned
AI before, but the whole when people talk about the
horror show that they're seeing in Vancouver and San Francisco,
and you know, a bunch of people that have been
over there recently are texting in and saying, you know,
it is terrible, just the amount of people the fentifold.
(08:37):
What about that for New Zealand because you know, we're
fighting the drugs that we're fighting now, but surely you
know the fentanyl crisis is coming to New Zealand very soon.
So exactly, yeah, So what are you seeing in thinking
from your perspective on the on the fentanyl crisis and
how to deal with that, because once again, that's a
totally different situation. Again, it's a sometimes prescription drug that
(09:00):
as being heavily abused.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
It's horrific, and we really want to avoid that here.
I think we all want to avoid becoming like those
parts of North America that are facing this, which is
exactly why we've put out this report because does it
not feel like we're already heading there. And one of
the things that we have noted this past year is
that for the first time, nitizines, which are actually more
(09:25):
potent than fentanyl, have been reported as having officially having
resulted in overdose fatalities here. So we really need to
act and we can't just think that doing the same
thing is going to work, and what has happened in
North America hasn't been because of those things. That predates
any of those changes. But what I would say is
(09:47):
that we really want to avoid any commercial models of
supply now.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
Just finally, would it be worse for people to be
on meth or fentanyl because often there becomes a drug
of choice that sweeps a nation. Is meth or fentanyl worse?
Speaker 2 (10:09):
I hate to put it quite like that, but I
would say sentinel results in the HEA give a lot
more fatalities. And the thing, here's the thing. When I
was over in Canada myself a year and a half ago,
I met with one of the heads of the police
force in British Columbia and I asked them, what would
you do if you could go back in time? Is
(10:30):
you know, kind of New Zealanders at this point And
they said to me, well, to be honest, we wish
we could have a safe supply of heroin, which was
their drug a choice at the time, because it would
have prevented people going onto fentanyl in the first place.
So we need to think more creatively and look for solutions.
We also need a law that allows us to adapt
(10:51):
because what might seem completely unpalatable and unrealistic right now.
In ten years time, we may need to deploy. We're
not suggesting that by any stretch, but what we are
saying was we do need a flexible law.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
Sarah, thank you very much for joining us. It's a
bold idea and appreciate your time very much. That is
Sarah Holme, executive director of the New Zealand Drug Foundation.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
For more from Heather Duplessy Allen Drive, listen live to
news talks. It'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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