November 17, 2025 • 9 mins
Tonight on The Huddle, Thomas Scrimgeour from the Maxim Institute and Child Fund CEO Josie Pagani joined in on a discussion about the following issues of the day - and more!
Schools across the country are mobilising and publicly committing to upholding the Treaty, despite the Government's plan to remove the obligations from boards. Luxon has said the schools shouldn't focus on politics - does he have a point?
New polls show the Government's falling out of favour with voters and Kiwis are split on the capital gains tax. What can the Government do to improve?
Uber drivers have won the battle against Uber in the Supreme Court. The court has ruled that Uber drivers are employees. Is this the right move?
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Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The huddle with New Zealand Southeby's International Realty and then
you can trust locally and globally.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Joining me this evening Josie beganning, CEO at Child Fund,
Josie Good evening, Hello, good.
Speaker 3 (00:10):
To see you.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
And Thomas Scrimmer's here from the Maximums to Thomas Good
Evening today. Ryan thoughts on that, Josie.
Speaker 4 (00:17):
Well, I don't think it's really changing much. It's just
removing it as a mandatory obligation for school board of
trustees to reflect their honoring of the treaty and so
they can still do it as these schools are. So
I don't know that it's that big an issue. I
do think for the government there's a two things. There's
a feeling that they're picking cultural fights they probably don't
(00:41):
need to have yes agreed, and it's partly that you know,
it gets votes, that's right. But I think I'm thinking
of Jim Boulder, actually, the late Jim Bolder.
Speaker 5 (00:49):
He's saying to me just a few.
Speaker 4 (00:50):
Weeks before he died, you know, why are they cutting
you know, Terio Mary, why do they have to do that?
This is a National Party former prime minister who brought
in the treaty settlement process. So I do think New
Zealanders don't want a culture war.
Speaker 5 (01:04):
On the left or the right. No, I agree, So
I think they should just let it go.
Speaker 4 (01:07):
But the other thing is, you know, there isn't teachers
need to I think probably stop being quite so militant
as they are. I'm picking a fight with the government
every single every time, and they're just going to turn.
Speaker 5 (01:18):
People off all that.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Thomas. Let's talk about the capital gains tax. So we
have this poll today and it said basically we're a
bobbyach right or even Stevens. Thirty nine percent I think
agree with it. This is Labour's plan. Thirty nine percent
oppose it. But it wasn't a disaster like it should
be a disaster for labor. They should go, oh capital
gains text. Labour's texting, Oh we're running away, but people
aren't running away.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
Yeah for sure. I mean if I was a Labor
political strategist, I'd be feeling really good about that result.
Like you say, sort of fairly mixed bag in terms
of public opinion, which for a new tax is a
pretty good thing and I think also pretty smart on
their part to launch it so far out I think
it's hard to sustain animosity to any policy over such
(02:00):
a long period of time, so the new Zitald public
will probably get used to it. And the other thing
Labor did was exclude the family home, which I think
from at a policy level doesn't make sense, but politically
it really does because it kind of dilutes some of
the animosity.
Speaker 5 (02:15):
The only really.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
Mistake they made, I think, is not accounting for inflation,
and the reason that they don't want to is that
they want more revenue from it. But it means you
could still sell your house for a loss and be
taxed on your loss, which is probably not ideal.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Its certainly not Josie, what's your take on Because we've
had poles out, we've had the epsoce thing today, and
when I go to parties, my friends, my lefty friends say, oh,
this is great.
Speaker 5 (02:39):
Do you have some lefty friends, right?
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Most of my friends are big, giant lefties, big lovies,
and they say, all, this is great because the other
side's getting screwed at the moment, you know, and they
love it. But then my friends on the right they say,
please please tell us this is not going the way
we think the poles tell us, it's going what do
you think.
Speaker 5 (02:57):
Well, the polls are sort of over the place, aren't they.
Speaker 4 (03:01):
I mean that latest poll, well, I mean that government
rating was about three point nine out of ten.
Speaker 5 (03:07):
That's really low.
Speaker 4 (03:08):
I mean if I got a rating like that as
a CEO of a charity, I'd be out in my ear.
Speaker 5 (03:13):
Having said that, I think one of the IPSIS polls was, oh.
Speaker 4 (03:16):
This is the worst worst ranking for a government since
twenty seventeen, which actually isn't that bad. I remember twenty seventy,
and I do think I think labor have to be careful.
So government, the government's got a problem. I don't think
people understand what national is for, what the coalition government
is for. It's growth, but they don't see that cascading
(03:37):
into their own incomes, or their own job opportunities, or
cost of living, all of that stuff. So they're just
not seeing it. And that's a problem for the government
ring And the problem for labor is the this is
good for them. That CGT polling is really good for them,
because I would have expected it to be much worse.
If you ask people, do you like attacks like CGT,
(03:58):
of course you're going to say no. Tells me that
there's actually quite a lot.
Speaker 5 (04:01):
Of support out there.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
Something shipped out.
Speaker 4 (04:03):
But Labor has to be careful Ryan that they don't
do a Peter Dutton in Australia where he was leading
in the polls for two years because it was an
anti government vote really in the polls, and then suddenly,
you know, the coalition in Australia and the Liberal Party
lost dramatically in Albanesi and Labor will voted back in.
Speaker 5 (04:23):
So Labour have to be careful they.
Speaker 4 (04:24):
Don't read this as one hundred percent vote for them.
It's also a vote against the government.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Don't take it for granted. Josie B. Beganni, Thomas Scrimser
on The Huddle.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
The Huddle with New Zealand Southeby's International Realty the only
truly global.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Brand twelve to six. Josie Begani and Thomas Scrimser on
The Huddle Tonight Thomas the Uber case. So the Supreme
Court has sort of upheld the appeals fallen over this
is whether an Uber employee or an Uber driver is
an employee or a contractor. They are going to be
these four at least considered employees and that will mean
(05:04):
well probably have big implications for the workers, although the
government's trying to legislate in this area.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
Your thoughts, Yeah, well, I think there's two issues here really.
I mean the first is whether the judges of the
Supreme Court have correctly interpreted the law as it stands,
and I don't really have a view either way on that.
But I think at the more fundamental level, is an
uber driver and employee, I just can't really see how
they are. I mean, they choose what jobs they take,
(05:31):
they are under a no obligation to keep accepting jobs,
they can knock off when they want, they can work
for a competitor. All of these things are really classical.
What is an independent contractor? If Uber drivers are employees
not contractors, I actually don't know what an independent contractor
even is. So I think it's probably fair enough that
the government is looking to legislate in this case to
(05:52):
bring clarity, because clearly the courts have seen that under
the law as they read it, they are employees. But
I just don't see how that's a sustainable interpretation. They
quite clearly are contractors in my view.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Yeah, it doesn't fit my definitely what I think of
when I think of an employee. Josie, So I think
there's a difference.
Speaker 4 (06:10):
Wait, I think there's a difference between a self employed person.
So I've been self employed before. When I'm self employed, yep,
I set my own hours, I pay for my own holidays.
If I'm sick, I don't work and I don't get paid.
But I can negotiate my rate and I can negotiate
my conditions. I think the difference with things like Uber
(06:30):
drivers is they can't negotiate their their rates, their price takers, no,
so that they are in many ways like employees.
Speaker 5 (06:38):
They have to work, you know, they have to.
Speaker 4 (06:40):
Work to a certain rate, They have to work according
to the conditions that Uber said.
Speaker 5 (06:43):
Okay, so that's a.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Bit different, Josie. When I signed because I've worked as
a contractor, is self employed a contractor and an employee.
When I'm a contractor, these guys, the bosses here, make
me sign all these things that say I won't go
and work for anyone else, you know, like I'm exclusive
to them, whereas these Uber drivers can run around with
Ded and Bolton whoever the hell else they like.
Speaker 4 (07:06):
So I think I'm and you're right, this legislation coming
up on this, but I think It's about not so
much saying a contractor is an employee, but that a
contractor has the rights of workers, certain rights that certain
workers that most workers have anyway, So you could negotiate
something like the ability to get legal advice before you
sign a contract or them, you know, could make that mandatory.
(07:27):
It could be things like some minimum standards around you
won't work fifteen hours ago. Yeah, rather than so, I
do think it needs it does need addressing. It's not
as simple as to say one is a contractor one's employee.
It's more complicated.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Thomas Kindala residents and Wellington are really upset about the
planes flying over their houses, and they used to fly
over Newtown and candala's much nice and dalaalah darling is
how they say it in Wellington. Got any sympathy for.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
Them, Oh, I sympathize and so far as I think
it's probably not that nice to have a plane flying
over your head at all hours of the day, and
they previously didn't. But I don't know what their redress
they want to have is that the move was because
of safety reasons. This is a better flight path. Previously
different residents had to deal with planes. They live in
(08:15):
the broad vicinity of an airport and planes need to land.
To complain about this is to say I think other
people should experience this thing. I don't like. I don't
want to experience it myself. I mean, I live in
west Auckland. I have a police helicopter over my house
every other night of the week.
Speaker 5 (08:32):
US stop committing so much crime, and then it's not so.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
Much me is my dearly beloved neighbors who seem to
be attracting the attention of the police helicopter. But what
is the redress here that it gets moved to other residents.
If we have an airport in a city, the planes
have to land. I just don't see what they're asking for.
Speaker 5 (08:50):
Yeah, that's absolutely right.
Speaker 4 (08:51):
If you have an airport in a city, you're going
to have planes flying over the city. And I'm sick
of people with nice lives and lovely houses and great
I have a nice life in a lovely house, but
constantly complaining and wanted to say that they want the
poor people to feel and hear the noise and not
live in a house and not have intensification, and for
goodness sake, tough enough. But I have actually got a
solution to this that they should put the airport. I'm
(09:14):
very happy for the airport to move to KRPTI where
I live, and then they can you know, move it
there and then they won't have any plance.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
It'll be why like anized problem. Josie, thank you. Jose
Bigani from Child Funder and Thomas Scrimger from the Maxim
Institute on the Huddle tonight.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
For more from Hither Duplessy, Allen Drive, listen live to
news talks it'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio
The huddle with New Zealand Southeby's International Realty and then
you can trust locally and globally.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Joining me this evening Josie beganning, CEO at Child Fund,
Josie Good evening, Hello, good.
Speaker 3 (00:10):
To see you.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
And Thomas Scrimmer's here from the Maximums to Thomas Good
Evening today. Ryan thoughts on that, Josie.
Speaker 4 (00:17):
Well, I don't think it's really changing much. It's just
removing it as a mandatory obligation for school board of
trustees to reflect their honoring of the treaty and so
they can still do it as these schools are. So
I don't know that it's that big an issue. I
do think for the government there's a two things. There's
a feeling that they're picking cultural fights they probably don't
(00:41):
need to have yes agreed, and it's partly that you know,
it gets votes, that's right. But I think I'm thinking
of Jim Boulder, actually, the late Jim Bolder.
Speaker 5 (00:49):
He's saying to me just a few.
Speaker 4 (00:50):
Weeks before he died, you know, why are they cutting
you know, Terio Mary, why do they have to do that?
This is a National Party former prime minister who brought
in the treaty settlement process. So I do think New
Zealanders don't want a culture war.
Speaker 5 (01:04):
On the left or the right. No, I agree, So
I think they should just let it go.
Speaker 4 (01:07):
But the other thing is, you know, there isn't teachers
need to I think probably stop being quite so militant
as they are. I'm picking a fight with the government
every single every time, and they're just going to turn.
Speaker 5 (01:18):
People off all that.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Thomas. Let's talk about the capital gains tax. So we
have this poll today and it said basically we're a
bobbyach right or even Stevens. Thirty nine percent I think
agree with it. This is Labour's plan. Thirty nine percent
oppose it. But it wasn't a disaster like it should
be a disaster for labor. They should go, oh capital
gains text. Labour's texting, Oh we're running away, but people
aren't running away.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
Yeah for sure. I mean if I was a Labor
political strategist, I'd be feeling really good about that result.
Like you say, sort of fairly mixed bag in terms
of public opinion, which for a new tax is a
pretty good thing and I think also pretty smart on
their part to launch it so far out I think
it's hard to sustain animosity to any policy over such
(02:00):
a long period of time, so the new Zitald public
will probably get used to it. And the other thing
Labor did was exclude the family home, which I think
from at a policy level doesn't make sense, but politically
it really does because it kind of dilutes some of
the animosity.
Speaker 5 (02:15):
The only really.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
Mistake they made, I think, is not accounting for inflation,
and the reason that they don't want to is that
they want more revenue from it. But it means you
could still sell your house for a loss and be
taxed on your loss, which is probably not ideal.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Its certainly not Josie, what's your take on Because we've
had poles out, we've had the epsoce thing today, and
when I go to parties, my friends, my lefty friends say, oh,
this is great.
Speaker 5 (02:39):
Do you have some lefty friends, right?
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Most of my friends are big, giant lefties, big lovies,
and they say, all, this is great because the other
side's getting screwed at the moment, you know, and they
love it. But then my friends on the right they say,
please please tell us this is not going the way
we think the poles tell us, it's going what do
you think.
Speaker 5 (02:57):
Well, the polls are sort of over the place, aren't they.
Speaker 4 (03:01):
I mean that latest poll, well, I mean that government
rating was about three point nine out of ten.
Speaker 5 (03:07):
That's really low.
Speaker 4 (03:08):
I mean if I got a rating like that as
a CEO of a charity, I'd be out in my ear.
Speaker 5 (03:13):
Having said that, I think one of the IPSIS polls was, oh.
Speaker 4 (03:16):
This is the worst worst ranking for a government since
twenty seventeen, which actually isn't that bad. I remember twenty seventy,
and I do think I think labor have to be careful.
So government, the government's got a problem. I don't think
people understand what national is for, what the coalition government
is for. It's growth, but they don't see that cascading
(03:37):
into their own incomes, or their own job opportunities, or
cost of living, all of that stuff. So they're just
not seeing it. And that's a problem for the government
ring And the problem for labor is the this is
good for them. That CGT polling is really good for them,
because I would have expected it to be much worse.
If you ask people, do you like attacks like CGT,
(03:58):
of course you're going to say no. Tells me that
there's actually quite a lot.
Speaker 5 (04:01):
Of support out there.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
Something shipped out.
Speaker 4 (04:03):
But Labor has to be careful Ryan that they don't
do a Peter Dutton in Australia where he was leading
in the polls for two years because it was an
anti government vote really in the polls, and then suddenly,
you know, the coalition in Australia and the Liberal Party
lost dramatically in Albanesi and Labor will voted back in.
Speaker 5 (04:23):
So Labour have to be careful they.
Speaker 4 (04:24):
Don't read this as one hundred percent vote for them.
It's also a vote against the government.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Don't take it for granted. Josie B. Beganni, Thomas Scrimser
on The Huddle.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
The Huddle with New Zealand Southeby's International Realty the only
truly global.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Brand twelve to six. Josie Begani and Thomas Scrimser on
The Huddle Tonight Thomas the Uber case. So the Supreme
Court has sort of upheld the appeals fallen over this
is whether an Uber employee or an Uber driver is
an employee or a contractor. They are going to be
these four at least considered employees and that will mean
(05:04):
well probably have big implications for the workers, although the
government's trying to legislate in this area.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
Your thoughts, Yeah, well, I think there's two issues here really.
I mean the first is whether the judges of the
Supreme Court have correctly interpreted the law as it stands,
and I don't really have a view either way on that.
But I think at the more fundamental level, is an
uber driver and employee, I just can't really see how
they are. I mean, they choose what jobs they take,
(05:31):
they are under a no obligation to keep accepting jobs,
they can knock off when they want, they can work
for a competitor. All of these things are really classical.
What is an independent contractor? If Uber drivers are employees
not contractors, I actually don't know what an independent contractor
even is. So I think it's probably fair enough that
the government is looking to legislate in this case to
(05:52):
bring clarity, because clearly the courts have seen that under
the law as they read it, they are employees. But
I just don't see how that's a sustainable interpretation. They
quite clearly are contractors in my view.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Yeah, it doesn't fit my definitely what I think of
when I think of an employee. Josie, So I think
there's a difference.
Speaker 4 (06:10):
Wait, I think there's a difference between a self employed person.
So I've been self employed before. When I'm self employed, yep,
I set my own hours, I pay for my own holidays.
If I'm sick, I don't work and I don't get paid.
But I can negotiate my rate and I can negotiate
my conditions. I think the difference with things like Uber
(06:30):
drivers is they can't negotiate their their rates, their price takers, no,
so that they are in many ways like employees.
Speaker 5 (06:38):
They have to work, you know, they have to.
Speaker 4 (06:40):
Work to a certain rate, They have to work according
to the conditions that Uber said.
Speaker 5 (06:43):
Okay, so that's a.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Bit different, Josie. When I signed because I've worked as
a contractor, is self employed a contractor and an employee.
When I'm a contractor, these guys, the bosses here, make
me sign all these things that say I won't go
and work for anyone else, you know, like I'm exclusive
to them, whereas these Uber drivers can run around with
Ded and Bolton whoever the hell else they like.
Speaker 4 (07:06):
So I think I'm and you're right, this legislation coming
up on this, but I think It's about not so
much saying a contractor is an employee, but that a
contractor has the rights of workers, certain rights that certain
workers that most workers have anyway, So you could negotiate
something like the ability to get legal advice before you
sign a contract or them, you know, could make that mandatory.
(07:27):
It could be things like some minimum standards around you
won't work fifteen hours ago. Yeah, rather than so, I
do think it needs it does need addressing. It's not
as simple as to say one is a contractor one's employee.
It's more complicated.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Thomas Kindala residents and Wellington are really upset about the
planes flying over their houses, and they used to fly
over Newtown and candala's much nice and dalaalah darling is
how they say it in Wellington. Got any sympathy for.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
Them, Oh, I sympathize and so far as I think
it's probably not that nice to have a plane flying
over your head at all hours of the day, and
they previously didn't. But I don't know what their redress
they want to have is that the move was because
of safety reasons. This is a better flight path. Previously
different residents had to deal with planes. They live in
(08:15):
the broad vicinity of an airport and planes need to land.
To complain about this is to say I think other
people should experience this thing. I don't like. I don't
want to experience it myself. I mean, I live in
west Auckland. I have a police helicopter over my house
every other night of the week.
Speaker 5 (08:32):
US stop committing so much crime, and then it's not so.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
Much me is my dearly beloved neighbors who seem to
be attracting the attention of the police helicopter. But what
is the redress here that it gets moved to other residents.
If we have an airport in a city, the planes
have to land. I just don't see what they're asking for.
Speaker 5 (08:50):
Yeah, that's absolutely right.
Speaker 4 (08:51):
If you have an airport in a city, you're going
to have planes flying over the city. And I'm sick
of people with nice lives and lovely houses and great
I have a nice life in a lovely house, but
constantly complaining and wanted to say that they want the
poor people to feel and hear the noise and not
live in a house and not have intensification, and for
goodness sake, tough enough. But I have actually got a
solution to this that they should put the airport. I'm
(09:14):
very happy for the airport to move to KRPTI where
I live, and then they can you know, move it
there and then they won't have any plance.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
It'll be why like anized problem. Josie, thank you. Jose
Bigani from Child Funder and Thomas Scrimger from the Maxim
Institute on the Huddle tonight.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
For more from Hither Duplessy, Allen Drive, listen live to
news talks it'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio
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