November 24, 2025 • 9 mins
There's growing speculation that National is looking to oust Chris Luxon as leader ahead of the election, but Finance Minister Nicola Willis is disputing these rumours.
Reports have claimed National is looking to replace Luxon with Chris Bishop, but this is mostly speculation.
Nicola Willis says the party has a Prime Minister who's delivering significant reforms - and making good on the promises National campaigned on.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
With us. Now is Nikola Willis the Finance Minister. High
Nikola Hi Ever, now is it true that you've asked
the public service bosses to find savings ahead of the budget.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Again, I've been telling the public service bosses and ministers
to find savings every day since we came into government.
My message has been consistent, which is you should always
be looking for efficiencies, ways of doing things better and
more effectively, finding dollars that are tied up in the
back office that could be put into the frontline for KIWIS.
(00:30):
That's been a perpetual mission OAR government.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
So no renewed push ahead of the budget.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Well, we're always pushing for it. And of course part
of the budget is that we want to fund additional
services for KIWIS, whether that's more funding for schools, more
funding for hospitals, and so we're always saying to public servants,
the more you find us in savings, the more we
can put into those things. So you have the tigest
part of the budget.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Of how much you want them to find.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Well, when I go into the budget, I've always got
two tallies. On one side, I've got the tally of
all of the things I want to do and that
I want to fund that. I think that I would
be in our aspiration. And then on the other tally,
I've got what are the dollars I can put towards
that without blowing out the debt and the spending, And
so how much we do depends on how much we save,
(01:15):
and how much we save depends on how much we do.
So it's an iterative process.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Okay, So why is David Seymour not involved this year
for the first time?
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Oh, he is involved. That that article missed the fact
that he is one of the budget ministers. Well, he
is a budget minister, and have him on the show.
He'll confirm for you that we've already had budget in.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
That he is not involved in the cost savings.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
What he means is he doesn't have a specific delegation
to go off and do an independent savings exercise, which
was something we specifically did in last year's budget. He
doesn't have that, But I tell you, across his portfolios
and across his ministers and the act Party's portfolios, I
have no doubt they'll be doing that.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Why doesn't he have a specific job this time?
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Because we're running the process from the center. He supports
me in that process. I call him my fiscal friend
because he.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
So Have you asked him not to help this time?
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Well, no, it's just the last time I asked him
to lead a specific exercise, and this year I haven't
repeated this.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
Is it true that he found three billion dollars worth
of savings last time, but then all the minister's vetoed
it and it ended up as only being one hundred
and fifteen million.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
I wouldn't characterize it that way.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
No, well I would, And is it true?
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Well, I wouldn't characterize it that way. How would you
characterizals that were put Well, some of the proposals that
were put for directly contradicted commitments from various political parties
or were things that would undermine initiatives that we had elsewhere.
So I don't think we're actionable.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Yeah, think that.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Yeah, I don't want to. I don't want to get
into a tit for tat, as I say, we're working
together to deliver a good Is he doing.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
A lot of testing at the moment, Nikola?
Speaker 2 (02:58):
It feels like no, No, I don't think he is.
But I think journalists like you like to invite people
like me to say things that can be taken out
of context and characterized that way. We're working together on
the budget, we have shared objectives.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Now, what is going on with Simon Watts? Is he
or is he not? Because he has said both ways
and I am so confused. Now is he not going
to buy offshore carbon credits?
Speaker 2 (03:21):
He's not going to do it, So why is he.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Setting up the mechanism to do it.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
Well, as you know, good old James Shaw signed us
up to this NDC commitment so that it goes above
and beyond our domestic emission reduction targets, and we've got
a commitment there. So he's exploring, well, what are the
ways that we could meet that commitment? But the reality
is we're not going to be buying overseas carbon credits.
(03:49):
That won't be how we do it. We're not telling
the billions of dollars off.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Okay, So are you telling me that when he tells
newsroom that he is prepared to pull the trigger on
buying those credits and he has mechanisms and deals in
place that would allow him to do that, he's just
playing pretend.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Well, the mechanisms that he's talking about are things like
the fact that New Zealand has a lot of technology
that is heading towards being commercialized that could be valuable
for New Zealand domestically but also internationally. He's talking about
the fact that, of course we do work with our
Pacific partners, in particular on cl climate adaptation projects and
(04:25):
other assistants with them and their emissions. So there are
things that we contribute internationally already and are likely to
contribute in future. And I think he's just looking at
what are all the ways that we can consider our gresth.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
No, no, no, no, no, hold no. He is very clear in
this that he is talking about buying from other countries'
carbon credits, right, So if we're not going to do it,
then why is he preparing those deals?
Speaker 2 (04:51):
Well, look, you'll have to talk to him about that.
But when it's send all money, does.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Your finance minister or why is he doing this?
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Well, you've heard what I've got to say on it,
don't you. We will not be sending billions of dollars
offshore to buy cap.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
So then why is a minister wasting his time doing this?
Is he playing pretend?
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Well, I think he's making sure that he has a
set of options available for the Cabinet and for us
to deliberate on. But it's not just me saying we're
not sending billions of dollars off shore. The Prime Minister, you.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
Know, you know how this looks. I mean basically what
it is is if you there will be people who
want you to buy those credits, who are going to
be like, yay, the government's doing it. And what it
does is for people like me who don't want you
to send twenty four billion dollars off shore, it freaks
us out because it looks like you're doing it.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
Well, look, I think you as I said, he's looking
at a number of mechanisms, some of which might be
technology transfer in others, and he's looking at what the
option Isn't.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
This part of the problem with your government at the
moment is that you guys are playing both sides instead
of just being really clear about what you're actually doing.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
How much clearer can I be and can the Prime
Minister be that we are not sending billions?
Speaker 1 (05:55):
Yeah, that's you're but can you see the problem for
the rest of us. You'll say saying that while your
minister strikes up deals that allows you to potentially.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Do it well, I think it's you have to Simon
Watts to get well. I think Simon Watts is the
right person to characterize his comments and give you a
detailed response on that. I'm not going to get inside
his mind and start giving you answers. He will have
something to say on that, so I think talk to
him about it.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
We'll get him on. Now. Is Winston getting ready to
play you guys off against each other? You guys against No.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
That's not my sense at all. I actually, when I
look at what he's doing, he's looking at a weak
Labor Party who are putting forward silly policies like additional tax,
have a pretty weak team, and he's thinking about all
of the votes he can steal from them.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Okay, and do you think that in the end, your
National colleagues will choose Chris Luxon over Chris Bishop.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
What makes you so sure?
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Well, we've got a Prime minister who is delivering significant reform,
has excellent ministers, delivering the policies that National campaigned on,
and working towards the vision that our members believe in,
that our candidates believe in, that our MP's believe in,
and our MP's value his leadership and want to win
(07:25):
the next election.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
Has somebody sat down with Bish and gone, mate, what's
going on here?
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Well? Look, I think Christopher Bishop is an extremely important
part of the National Party team. He is our campaign manager.
He is the person driving what I think will be
the most significant economic reform of this government, which is
replacing the Resource Management Act. He will vary shortly announce
an overhaul of regional government that streamline.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
Has anyone sat down with him and going what's up?
Speaker 2 (08:00):
When I sit down with Chris Bishop all the time,
I talked to him all the time. I don't have
secret to anyone who new Lands that he's on here.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
With all the rumors about you you launching a coup, well, I.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Think we all agree that you guys in the media,
I don't like to put you all under the same brand.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
Welcome back.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
The truth is you have been having this debate with
yourselves four years now, every few months the same thing.
Let's have a little discussion about whether or not all
as well in the National Party camp. Let's let's read
what connect it together?
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Your Prime minister is like the most unpopular prime minister
in modern history. That's why do you know what matters?
Speaker 2 (08:37):
What matters is leadership, strength, conviction, clarity and popularity. That's
nice to have, but it's not a censure. I tell
you who had lots of popularity. Her name was just
Cinda Rdurn and what she delivered for the country was
an absolute mess. So I look for a bit more
than popularity in my prod.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Mister Nicola, thanks for your time. Appreciated. Nichola Willis the
Finance Minister. For more from Heather Dup and Drive, listen
live to news talks. It'd be from four pm weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
With us. Now is Nikola Willis the Finance Minister. High
Nikola Hi Ever, now is it true that you've asked
the public service bosses to find savings ahead of the budget.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Again, I've been telling the public service bosses and ministers
to find savings every day since we came into government.
My message has been consistent, which is you should always
be looking for efficiencies, ways of doing things better and
more effectively, finding dollars that are tied up in the
back office that could be put into the frontline for KIWIS.
(00:30):
That's been a perpetual mission OAR government.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
So no renewed push ahead of the budget.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Well, we're always pushing for it. And of course part
of the budget is that we want to fund additional
services for KIWIS, whether that's more funding for schools, more
funding for hospitals, and so we're always saying to public servants,
the more you find us in savings, the more we
can put into those things. So you have the tigest
part of the budget.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Of how much you want them to find.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Well, when I go into the budget, I've always got
two tallies. On one side, I've got the tally of
all of the things I want to do and that
I want to fund that. I think that I would
be in our aspiration. And then on the other tally,
I've got what are the dollars I can put towards
that without blowing out the debt and the spending, And
so how much we do depends on how much we save,
(01:15):
and how much we save depends on how much we do.
So it's an iterative process.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Okay, So why is David Seymour not involved this year
for the first time?
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Oh, he is involved. That that article missed the fact
that he is one of the budget ministers. Well, he
is a budget minister, and have him on the show.
He'll confirm for you that we've already had budget in.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
That he is not involved in the cost savings.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
What he means is he doesn't have a specific delegation
to go off and do an independent savings exercise, which
was something we specifically did in last year's budget. He
doesn't have that, But I tell you, across his portfolios
and across his ministers and the act Party's portfolios, I
have no doubt they'll be doing that.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Why doesn't he have a specific job this time?
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Because we're running the process from the center. He supports
me in that process. I call him my fiscal friend
because he.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
So Have you asked him not to help this time?
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Well, no, it's just the last time I asked him
to lead a specific exercise, and this year I haven't
repeated this.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
Is it true that he found three billion dollars worth
of savings last time, but then all the minister's vetoed
it and it ended up as only being one hundred
and fifteen million.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
I wouldn't characterize it that way.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
No, well I would, And is it true?
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Well, I wouldn't characterize it that way. How would you
characterizals that were put Well, some of the proposals that
were put for directly contradicted commitments from various political parties
or were things that would undermine initiatives that we had elsewhere.
So I don't think we're actionable.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Yeah, think that.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Yeah, I don't want to. I don't want to get
into a tit for tat, as I say, we're working
together to deliver a good Is he doing.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
A lot of testing at the moment, Nikola?
Speaker 2 (02:58):
It feels like no, No, I don't think he is.
But I think journalists like you like to invite people
like me to say things that can be taken out
of context and characterized that way. We're working together on
the budget, we have shared objectives.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Now, what is going on with Simon Watts? Is he
or is he not? Because he has said both ways
and I am so confused. Now is he not going
to buy offshore carbon credits?
Speaker 2 (03:21):
He's not going to do it, So why is he.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Setting up the mechanism to do it.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
Well, as you know, good old James Shaw signed us
up to this NDC commitment so that it goes above
and beyond our domestic emission reduction targets, and we've got
a commitment there. So he's exploring, well, what are the
ways that we could meet that commitment? But the reality
is we're not going to be buying overseas carbon credits.
(03:49):
That won't be how we do it. We're not telling
the billions of dollars off.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Okay, So are you telling me that when he tells
newsroom that he is prepared to pull the trigger on
buying those credits and he has mechanisms and deals in
place that would allow him to do that, he's just
playing pretend.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Well, the mechanisms that he's talking about are things like
the fact that New Zealand has a lot of technology
that is heading towards being commercialized that could be valuable
for New Zealand domestically but also internationally. He's talking about
the fact that, of course we do work with our
Pacific partners, in particular on cl climate adaptation projects and
(04:25):
other assistants with them and their emissions. So there are
things that we contribute internationally already and are likely to
contribute in future. And I think he's just looking at
what are all the ways that we can consider our gresth.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
No, no, no, no, no, hold no. He is very clear in
this that he is talking about buying from other countries'
carbon credits, right, So if we're not going to do it,
then why is he preparing those deals?
Speaker 2 (04:51):
Well, look, you'll have to talk to him about that.
But when it's send all money, does.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Your finance minister or why is he doing this?
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Well, you've heard what I've got to say on it,
don't you. We will not be sending billions of dollars
offshore to buy cap.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
So then why is a minister wasting his time doing this?
Is he playing pretend?
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Well, I think he's making sure that he has a
set of options available for the Cabinet and for us
to deliberate on. But it's not just me saying we're
not sending billions of dollars off shore. The Prime Minister, you.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
Know, you know how this looks. I mean basically what
it is is if you there will be people who
want you to buy those credits, who are going to
be like, yay, the government's doing it. And what it
does is for people like me who don't want you
to send twenty four billion dollars off shore, it freaks
us out because it looks like you're doing it.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
Well, look, I think you as I said, he's looking
at a number of mechanisms, some of which might be
technology transfer in others, and he's looking at what the
option Isn't.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
This part of the problem with your government at the
moment is that you guys are playing both sides instead
of just being really clear about what you're actually doing.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
How much clearer can I be and can the Prime
Minister be that we are not sending billions?
Speaker 1 (05:55):
Yeah, that's you're but can you see the problem for
the rest of us. You'll say saying that while your
minister strikes up deals that allows you to potentially.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Do it well, I think it's you have to Simon
Watts to get well. I think Simon Watts is the
right person to characterize his comments and give you a
detailed response on that. I'm not going to get inside
his mind and start giving you answers. He will have
something to say on that, so I think talk to
him about it.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
We'll get him on. Now. Is Winston getting ready to
play you guys off against each other? You guys against No.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
That's not my sense at all. I actually, when I
look at what he's doing, he's looking at a weak
Labor Party who are putting forward silly policies like additional tax,
have a pretty weak team, and he's thinking about all
of the votes he can steal from them.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Okay, and do you think that in the end, your
National colleagues will choose Chris Luxon over Chris Bishop.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
What makes you so sure?
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Well, we've got a Prime minister who is delivering significant reform,
has excellent ministers, delivering the policies that National campaigned on,
and working towards the vision that our members believe in,
that our candidates believe in, that our MP's believe in,
and our MP's value his leadership and want to win
(07:25):
the next election.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
Has somebody sat down with Bish and gone, mate, what's
going on here?
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Well? Look, I think Christopher Bishop is an extremely important
part of the National Party team. He is our campaign manager.
He is the person driving what I think will be
the most significant economic reform of this government, which is
replacing the Resource Management Act. He will vary shortly announce
an overhaul of regional government that streamline.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
Has anyone sat down with him and going what's up?
Speaker 2 (08:00):
When I sit down with Chris Bishop all the time,
I talked to him all the time. I don't have
secret to anyone who new Lands that he's on here.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
With all the rumors about you you launching a coup, well, I.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Think we all agree that you guys in the media,
I don't like to put you all under the same brand.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
Welcome back.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
The truth is you have been having this debate with
yourselves four years now, every few months the same thing.
Let's have a little discussion about whether or not all
as well in the National Party camp. Let's let's read
what connect it together?
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Your Prime minister is like the most unpopular prime minister
in modern history. That's why do you know what matters?
Speaker 2 (08:37):
What matters is leadership, strength, conviction, clarity and popularity. That's
nice to have, but it's not a censure. I tell
you who had lots of popularity. Her name was just
Cinda Rdurn and what she delivered for the country was
an absolute mess. So I look for a bit more
than popularity in my prod.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Mister Nicola, thanks for your time. Appreciated. Nichola Willis the
Finance Minister. For more from Heather Dup and Drive, listen
live to news talks. It'd be from four pm weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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