December 15, 2025 • 6 mins
The Government's confident a planned mega-ministry, MCERT, will support RMA and Local Government reforms.
It expects the Ministry of Cities, Environment, Regions and Transport to be up and running by next July.
It replaces the Ministries of Environment, Transport, Housing and Urban Development.
Infrastructure Minister Chris Bishop says New Zealand's great challenges involve all those agencies.
"At the moment, it's all disconnected between three of four different agencies that we're merging together into one."
LISTEN ABOVE
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
We've got a new MB. We're getting a new MB,
I should say, a new superministry M sert. They're calling
this one very fancy ministry for Cities, Environment, Regions and Transport.
It rolls several portfolios into one, replacing the ministries for
the Environment, Housing and Transport. Unsurprisingly, Chris Bishop is the
Minister for Housing, Transport, Infrastructure and RMA Reform and joins me. Now, Minister,
(00:22):
good afternoon, Good afternoon. Do you lose some job titles
if you're the minister of this big superministry.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
No, the portfolios are separate, and that's ultimately over to
the Prime Minister. But it's I think it'd be fair
to say that my experience in those portfolios has helped,
you know, convince me that bringing these agencies together into
into one agency is the right thing to do.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
So one agency, but will still have lots of ministers.
Is that not a bit dumb? Well, it will.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
It will have a range of ministers depending on who
holds the portfolios. Obviously I happen to have most of
them at the moment, but that that won't necessarily always
be the case. But if you think about the great
challenges we've got as a country from housing, through our
infrastructure deficit, through to reacting to climate change for example.
All of these functions are actually they fit together right,
So you can't do housing without planning reform, which we're
(01:13):
doing through the Resource Management Act. Now that's driven out
of MF at the moment, but it's intimately connected to housing.
And likewise, it's intimately connected to the role of local
government as well, because it's ultimately cities and regions that
implement spatial plans and then the district plans, and at
the moment it's all disconnected between three or four different
agencies that we're merging together into one. And you also
can't do it without transport for example as well. And
(01:34):
you know, most countries don't do it like this. Most
countries have a version of what we're creating, which you
know inserts a it's a working title. We weighed up with,
as we call it, meth. We decided against that Ministry
of Environment, Transport and Housing. But given our law and
order credentials are tough on crime rhetorical, we decided that
would be a very good idea.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
At least you could have gone at least you could
have gone P for short, I mean, this is still
there's still a lot in here. To me, it just
doesn't make sense. Like everything, I understand everything that you're saying,
But then why not just have one minister looking after it?
Or isn't part of the problem we have in this
country that we have too many portfolios. We've got about
eighty Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Well, at the moment, I am the minister looking after it,
and you know, and it works. I think, well, you know,
I mean the others for others to judge as to
how we're going. But I think we're making a real
progress on all of the issues that I'm in charge of.
And ultimately that's a question for the prominent stuff.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
So in terms of cost savings, are we going to
get any and how many jobs might go?
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Yes, we are. The driver is not so much about
cost savings, although clearly there will be some on the
way through. I mean, if you just take a simple example,
all of these ministries have their own payrolls. For example,
they have a range of back off of stuff, and
so you'd expect there to be some efficiencies exactly how
many you know how much and how many we don't
know yet. That'll be for the first six months of
(02:55):
next year and frankly all of twenty twenty six as
the new ministry has stood up. But you know that
we will clearly expect some efficiencies on.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
The way through. Okay, you've given the example of the
curl missed opportunity because we didn't have the housing joined
in when we were putting this thing together. It's going
to open next year. So let's look at, say a
second harbor crossing. How will this what changes? What is different?
If we put a second harbor crossing through under the
m seert then it would have been previously.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
So I would expect integrated advice around the environmental impacts
of that, alongside the transport implications obviously, and if there's
any housing related components to it as well, then we'd
be able to take an integrated look at how all
of those things play out in practice. The City rail
Link is a really instructive example. I mean, we decided
to do the city rail Link, but we didn't think
(03:45):
about innovative funding and financing options around it. We didn't
think about the housing component of it. Only only now
are we up zoning around the City rail Link stations,
for example in Auckland. And you know, you can think
about it will started to be built in twenty fifteen,
twenty sixteen, ten years later, we've only just got onto
that level crossings is another one related to city railing,
so that the real benefits of city railing come from
(04:08):
increasing the number of trains and the frequency of those trains.
But to do that you need to make sure that
the level crossings that exist on the Auckland rail network
are done away with progressively. Only now are we getting
on with that level get so.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
All of this will be taken care of by this
mega ministry. What about the council? Where does Wayne Brown
get his say or does he not get to say?
What happens there?
Speaker 2 (04:30):
It means that Wayne Brown and other councils around the
country can deal with one government agency when it comes
to all of these issues. That is actually a massive
benefit of it. So if I'm a In fact, I
was talking to someone from Napier City Council the other
night actually at an infrastructure dinner, and she was saying, look,
it's a complete nightmare.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
At the moment.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
If we want to go and talk to the government
around around planning, around housing, around our transport connections, we're
going to talk to like four different agencies now you know,
is that possible?
Speaker 1 (04:55):
Of course it is?
Speaker 2 (04:56):
Is it efficient?
Speaker 1 (04:56):
No?
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Would they prefer to deal with one agency?
Speaker 1 (04:59):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Absolutely?
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Way What one final question. You've made a big thing
about this, you know, you kind of state to your
political career on it in a way. But the housing
shortage that we have how many a textas has just said,
can you tell Biship we don't have a housing deficit
in this country for God's sakes, that we've got them
coming out our ears. We can't sell them quick enough.
How many are we short?
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Well? I don't want to put a number on it,
but I just put this to you. We have one
of the most expensive housing markets in the developed world,
and I think we will We will have housing back
and back into balance with supply and demand when housing's affordable,
and it's clearly not.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
At the moment hanging on. So how many are we short? Well,
it depends on where you are.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
If you're in Auckland or Wellington, the whole country, you're
any number of many, many thousands, many number of thousands
of home short because we haven't built enough over the
last thirty years and the RMA is a big reason
for that.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
So we're not quite sure how many we're short. What
should the price be? You said they need to come
down a lot. How much is a lot?
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Well, I've talked in the past around having a house
price to come ratio of around three to five to one.
That's not the case at the moment. In Auckland it's
you know, around seven or eight to one. In Queenstown
it's like eleven or twelve or maybe even thirteen to
one in terms of house price to income ratio. So
now we're I'm not proposing that we have a massive
(06:17):
house price crash that would be that would be very
bad for the economy. But we need to make housing
more affordable over time and it's a long term goal
of this government to make housing more affordable. It's one
of the single best things we can do to solve
many of the social problems before in New Zealand.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
All right, Minister, appreciate your time this afternoon. Thank you.
That is the Minister for Housing, Transport, Infrastructure and RMA Reform,
Chris Bishop. For more from Heather Duplassy Allen Drive, listen
live to news talks it'd be from four pm weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
We've got a new MB. We're getting a new MB,
I should say, a new superministry M sert. They're calling
this one very fancy ministry for Cities, Environment, Regions and Transport.
It rolls several portfolios into one, replacing the ministries for
the Environment, Housing and Transport. Unsurprisingly, Chris Bishop is the
Minister for Housing, Transport, Infrastructure and RMA Reform and joins me. Now, Minister,
(00:22):
good afternoon, Good afternoon. Do you lose some job titles
if you're the minister of this big superministry.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
No, the portfolios are separate, and that's ultimately over to
the Prime Minister. But it's I think it'd be fair
to say that my experience in those portfolios has helped,
you know, convince me that bringing these agencies together into
into one agency is the right thing to do.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
So one agency, but will still have lots of ministers.
Is that not a bit dumb? Well, it will.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
It will have a range of ministers depending on who
holds the portfolios. Obviously I happen to have most of
them at the moment, but that that won't necessarily always
be the case. But if you think about the great
challenges we've got as a country from housing, through our
infrastructure deficit, through to reacting to climate change for example.
All of these functions are actually they fit together right,
So you can't do housing without planning reform, which we're
(01:13):
doing through the Resource Management Act. Now that's driven out
of MF at the moment, but it's intimately connected to housing.
And likewise, it's intimately connected to the role of local
government as well, because it's ultimately cities and regions that
implement spatial plans and then the district plans, and at
the moment it's all disconnected between three or four different
agencies that we're merging together into one. And you also
can't do it without transport for example as well. And
(01:34):
you know, most countries don't do it like this. Most
countries have a version of what we're creating, which you
know inserts a it's a working title. We weighed up with,
as we call it, meth. We decided against that Ministry
of Environment, Transport and Housing. But given our law and
order credentials are tough on crime rhetorical, we decided that
would be a very good idea.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
At least you could have gone at least you could
have gone P for short, I mean, this is still
there's still a lot in here. To me, it just
doesn't make sense. Like everything, I understand everything that you're saying,
But then why not just have one minister looking after it?
Or isn't part of the problem we have in this
country that we have too many portfolios. We've got about
eighty Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Well, at the moment, I am the minister looking after it,
and you know, and it works. I think, well, you know,
I mean the others for others to judge as to
how we're going. But I think we're making a real
progress on all of the issues that I'm in charge of.
And ultimately that's a question for the prominent stuff.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
So in terms of cost savings, are we going to
get any and how many jobs might go?
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Yes, we are. The driver is not so much about
cost savings, although clearly there will be some on the
way through. I mean, if you just take a simple example,
all of these ministries have their own payrolls. For example,
they have a range of back off of stuff, and
so you'd expect there to be some efficiencies exactly how
many you know how much and how many we don't
know yet. That'll be for the first six months of
(02:55):
next year and frankly all of twenty twenty six as
the new ministry has stood up. But you know that
we will clearly expect some efficiencies on.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
The way through. Okay, you've given the example of the
curl missed opportunity because we didn't have the housing joined
in when we were putting this thing together. It's going
to open next year. So let's look at, say a
second harbor crossing. How will this what changes? What is different?
If we put a second harbor crossing through under the
m seert then it would have been previously.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
So I would expect integrated advice around the environmental impacts
of that, alongside the transport implications obviously, and if there's
any housing related components to it as well, then we'd
be able to take an integrated look at how all
of those things play out in practice. The City rail
Link is a really instructive example. I mean, we decided
to do the city rail Link, but we didn't think
(03:45):
about innovative funding and financing options around it. We didn't
think about the housing component of it. Only only now
are we up zoning around the City rail Link stations,
for example in Auckland. And you know, you can think
about it will started to be built in twenty fifteen,
twenty sixteen, ten years later, we've only just got onto
that level crossings is another one related to city railing,
so that the real benefits of city railing come from
(04:08):
increasing the number of trains and the frequency of those trains.
But to do that you need to make sure that
the level crossings that exist on the Auckland rail network
are done away with progressively. Only now are we getting
on with that level get so.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
All of this will be taken care of by this
mega ministry. What about the council? Where does Wayne Brown
get his say or does he not get to say?
What happens there?
Speaker 2 (04:30):
It means that Wayne Brown and other councils around the
country can deal with one government agency when it comes
to all of these issues. That is actually a massive
benefit of it. So if I'm a In fact, I
was talking to someone from Napier City Council the other
night actually at an infrastructure dinner, and she was saying, look,
it's a complete nightmare.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
At the moment.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
If we want to go and talk to the government
around around planning, around housing, around our transport connections, we're
going to talk to like four different agencies now you know,
is that possible?
Speaker 1 (04:55):
Of course it is?
Speaker 2 (04:56):
Is it efficient?
Speaker 1 (04:56):
No?
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Would they prefer to deal with one agency?
Speaker 1 (04:59):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Absolutely?
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Way What one final question. You've made a big thing
about this, you know, you kind of state to your
political career on it in a way. But the housing
shortage that we have how many a textas has just said,
can you tell Biship we don't have a housing deficit
in this country for God's sakes, that we've got them
coming out our ears. We can't sell them quick enough.
How many are we short?
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Well? I don't want to put a number on it,
but I just put this to you. We have one
of the most expensive housing markets in the developed world,
and I think we will We will have housing back
and back into balance with supply and demand when housing's affordable,
and it's clearly not.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
At the moment hanging on. So how many are we short? Well,
it depends on where you are.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
If you're in Auckland or Wellington, the whole country, you're
any number of many, many thousands, many number of thousands
of home short because we haven't built enough over the
last thirty years and the RMA is a big reason
for that.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
So we're not quite sure how many we're short. What
should the price be? You said they need to come
down a lot. How much is a lot?
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Well, I've talked in the past around having a house
price to come ratio of around three to five to one.
That's not the case at the moment. In Auckland it's
you know, around seven or eight to one. In Queenstown
it's like eleven or twelve or maybe even thirteen to
one in terms of house price to income ratio. So
now we're I'm not proposing that we have a massive
(06:17):
house price crash that would be that would be very
bad for the economy. But we need to make housing
more affordable over time and it's a long term goal
of this government to make housing more affordable. It's one
of the single best things we can do to solve
many of the social problems before in New Zealand.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
All right, Minister, appreciate your time this afternoon. Thank you.
That is the Minister for Housing, Transport, Infrastructure and RMA Reform,
Chris Bishop. For more from Heather Duplassy Allen Drive, listen
live to news talks it'd be from four pm weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Betrayal: Weekly
Betrayal Weekly is back for a brand new season. Every Thursday, Betrayal Weekly shares first-hand accounts of broken trust, shocking deceptions, and the trail of destruction they leave behind. Hosted by Andrea Gunning, this weekly ongoing series digs into real-life stories of betrayal and the aftermath. From stories of double lives to dark discoveries, these are cautionary tales and accounts of resilience against all odds. From the producers of the critically acclaimed Betrayal series, Betrayal Weekly drops new episodes every Thursday. Please join our Substack for additional exclusive content, curated book recommendations and community discussions. Sign up FREE by clicking this link Beyond Betrayal Substack. Join our community dedicated to truth, resilience and healing. Your voice matters! Be a part of our Betrayal journey on Substack. And make sure to check out Seasons 1-4 of Betrayal, along with Betrayal Weekly Season 1.