Today on Politics Friday, John MacDonald was joined by National’s Vanessa Weenink and Labour’s Tracey McLellan for a chat about the latest political happenings.
The agenda today had a bit of a health skew, as they discussed whether it might be time for a user-pays approach to health and if single-patient hospital rooms are the way of the future.
And, who do they think will be the President of the United States this time next week – and who’s Tracey’s scarecrows American connection?
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Canterbury Mornings podcast with John McDonald
from News Talk ZB.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
The Politics Friday, Labour's Tracy McLellan Morney, Tracy good Morning,
and National's Vanessa Wedning Morning, Vanessa, good morning. All Right,
this idea or the assertion today from Mike Grimshaw, Associate
professor at the University of Canterbury that there are too
many illiterate students there and they've got to get a
bit more elite and flush some of these people out.
What's your reaction, Vanessa, Well.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Hear what he's saying and listening to some of the comments.
There's many that I agreed with this morning. And the
government recognizes that there's been a drop in outcomes for
students and that's why we're bringing in things like structured
literacy and primary schools.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
So that picks up on the point that he's making
that he's boiling the finger at primary schools. Are you
Are you critical of primary schools.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
I'm not critical of the teachers. I think everyone's working
really hard. I think we've had some some different ways
of approaching things that haven't really worked and we see
that in the outcomes. I think there's another person and
who had a really good point this morning talking about
parents and their need to participate in as well, because
it's not just about schools, it's about reading to your
children and that makes a huge difference.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Tracy mccleol. And this goes back, doesn't it, to this
obsession that Helen Clark fueled back in the nineties. Anyone
who wants to go to university should be able to
go to university.
Speaker 4 (01:25):
Well, I don't know if it was an obsession, but
it is.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
As what she seemed like that at the time.
Speaker 4 (01:29):
But education shouldn't be I don't think education should be elitism,
So I disagree with that. But you're right in so
far as you need to have certain standards to be
able to do well. Otherwise you end up finishing university
with a huge student loan and no real qualification or
no real means by which to you to have made
that a worthwhile process. I think that people learn differently, though,
(01:51):
and it was probably part of that era of recognizing
that people learn differently, and it's not just a cookie cutter,
you know, past this standard or achieve this particular way
of learning. And I do think we have to be inclusive.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
I was picked up by someone who called up last
hour who has a background and recruitment, and they were
picking me up on my assertion that part of the
problem was employers and employers expecting people to have degrees
to work for them who don't necessarily need a degree
to work for them. Which side of that are you on, Vanessa?
Speaker 3 (02:22):
I totally agree it is a shortcut to figuring out
can somebody learn? But when you're recruiting people, you need
a really wide understanding of what they can do, and
it's good to see people who have had a lot
of experience in different areas. I don't think that a
degree is all it's cracked up to be for everybody.
I think that it matters for some things. But I
(02:44):
think the over professionalization of many things in this country
and all around the world is actually doing us a
massive disservice.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
So I can I just tap into maybe what you
might consider to be the unkind assersions about the Labor Party,
For example, Tracy that when it comes to the politicians,
it is full of overqualified and under experienced people. Is
that part of the problem too, that politics is full
of people with qualifications but not much else to offer.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
No.
Speaker 4 (03:11):
I think there's a wide riot. I mean, most people
that have got qualifications also have life experience, don't they.
Not everybody followed the pathway of being a school leaver,
going to university, getting you know, a degree, or you know,
in lieu of having life experience. I know, I didn't
go to university university until I was in my late
twenties and had plenty of life experience.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
What drove you to do that in your late twenties, Oh,
I just had to.
Speaker 4 (03:36):
I was actually working for telecom at the day and
they packed up and left in the cargo. So I
had to figure out what to do. And I went
into a careers counseling service and they said, take this test.
You should be doing something more. So I looked at
university and only you know, my original intention was to
do something for you know, a couple of years or
three years, and ended up being just loving research. So
(03:59):
stayed and stayed.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
So did you come across a few of literate students?
Speaker 4 (04:04):
Well, I did, said that off air, John, thank you
for them.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
I just thought i'd ask you the question, that's all.
Speaker 4 (04:11):
If there was a period of time where I was
in charge of first year students and there was many
people who presented with very varying levels of literacy. But
what I enjoyed about teaching was watching people just flourish
in that environment and taking what they taking the basics
of what they brought to the university with them and
growing and people. Sometimes the people that you didn't expect
(04:34):
would would do really well ended up doing really really well.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
So this is not a new problem that Mike Groomsaw
was talking about today.
Speaker 4 (04:41):
No, I think it's confidence. It's all sorts of things.
And as Vanessa said, you know, people are time poor
these days, and we're not reading to our kids as
much as you know what you and I probably got
read to or read to our own children.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Is there, I'll be your point the finger here. Is
it really excuse saying you don't have time to read
your kids? I don't said that.
Speaker 4 (05:03):
No, I don't. I don't know if it's just time poor,
But I think it's about expectations. And if it didn't,
if you didn't, if you weren't afforded the opportunity to
realize what a gift that was, then it's really hard
when there's pressures coming at you from all different directions
to prioritize that for your own children. And it is
a shame and it is something that I think, you know,
as a society, we should be encouraging people to have
(05:25):
that confidence that it does make a difference.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
There's nothing like reading a story in nodding off what
are you're doing?
Speaker 3 (05:30):
It makes a huge different difference to children's learning to
have their parents read to them. That's why some doctors
give a little gift of books when they do the
six Weeks Tech.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Right, Mike King, he had the phone screaming yesterday up
and down the country. Let's look at this, Tracy Mcleanan,
What what is labor trying to achieve? Say, calling for
the government funding for gun boot Friday to be paused.
Speaker 4 (05:59):
Well, I think Mike King's comments were outrageous to start with,
and it does beg the question is this organized the
organization you want to chuck twenty four million dollars at
when there's plenty of other NGOs who do really good
work with evidence based sound safe practices who have had
their funding cut or they weren't able to contest this money.
(06:23):
So I think there's always been some questions about gunboot Friday.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Are you saying it's not a sound or it does.
Let me check this. Are you saying that Mike King's
organization does not operate in a sound way? Is that
what you're saying.
Speaker 4 (06:36):
I'm saying that when Mike King goes out and makes
ridiculous comments, you've got to ask yourself how far does
the rot go in that organization?
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Rot?
Speaker 4 (06:44):
Yes, what he said yesterday was outrageous rot. Though, Look,
whenever you have a procurement process where no one else
is able to apply for those funds, where it's part
of a coalition agreement, where the legitimacy of the process
raises concerns from all different quarters, I think that organization
(07:05):
needs to be in tip top, tip top operating space
before Mike King can go out and get away with
making comments like that.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
How fair is it to blame or to say that
there is rot within his organization when actually it was
a government that maybe operated in a bit of a
dodgy handing out the money. Yeah, how can you cut
tarnish them both with the same brand.
Speaker 4 (07:27):
I don't think I'm tarnishing them both?
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Well, talk about rott.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
No, I think there's always.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
Been concerns about gun boot Friday, and we know that
there's been several resignations from the board just recently. Todd
Muller XMP. He's up and left is not the only
one when things like that happen, it does.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
What's the background to his departure?
Speaker 4 (07:46):
Well, I only read what I read in the media.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Well there for you don't know what we talking about.
Speaker 4 (07:50):
Well, I know that he's left.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Well when you have to say that, well, I just think.
Speaker 4 (07:54):
That gunboot Friday has a checkered past, and Mike King
going around talking rubbish like that yesterday doesn't help their cause.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
And it's a rotten organization.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
No, I didn't say that.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
We'll see it's got rotten it.
Speaker 4 (08:04):
Well, lots of things can have, you know, some dubious practices,
and I think this organization is one that needs to
stand up to a really high level of scrutiny given
the government essentially just handed it money without going through
a proper process.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
Vanessa wennick Oll, I think there's a bit of rotten
the Labor Party. There's but you know, the comments that
he made, I just don't agree with them. I've got
a lot of respect for what gun bout Friday does.
I think that it's fantastic that more kids can get
counseling when they need it, and I think that's really important.
The rest of it, you know, I don't have a
(08:42):
good understanding of the workings of that organization, so I
couldn't make a comment on that. But look, absolutely alcohol
is a depressant. It makes mental health worse. People self
medicating with alcohol is an absolute part of the problem,
and it's part of diagnoses that people have. Mike King
(09:05):
admit that he is an alcoholic and a drug addict
and has self medicated worth alcohol himself. I wonder if
really what he was saying was, look, this is part
of the problem, rather than actually, you know, getting a snippet.
I didn't hear the full context of what he said,
but yeah, clearly alcohol is not a cure. It is
(09:27):
part of the harm.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Given those twenty four million dollars involved with public money,
do you think there should be some sort of as
part of the arrangement might be after the fact, now,
some sort of gagging clause on Mike.
Speaker 3 (09:38):
King, And I don't know that that would work.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
Actually, So it's fine for the money to say flowing
and Mike King is that what he wants. So as
far as the government's concerned.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
Well, I think that we distance ourselves completely from what
he sees and totally disagree with his statements.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
So do you see that any merit? And what Trace
is talking about, what Labour's talking about saying let's put
a pause and have a look at this outfit.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
Well, I think that's just pure politicking.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
Can I just invite you to elaborate on your reference
to dodgy practices within Mike King's organization? What did you
mean there?
Speaker 4 (10:13):
Oh, look, dodgy practice is probably a bit harsh. I
just think that.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
All Well, why'd you say it? What did you mean?
Speaker 4 (10:22):
Because I don't think that. I think there's been some
gray areas about some of their practices for quite a
long period of time. I mean, most people that I
know that work in those fields would have concerns about
the level of leadership, the level of qualification of people
in clinical leadership roles, and about the models that they
(10:42):
are operating under. I don't think it's best practice.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
All right, let's look at the Dunedan Hospital. Sam Neil
has joined the Frainer actor sam Neil saying what the
government's looking at doing with Dunedan Hospital careless, heartless and ruthless.
Can I just clarify, Tracy, did Labor have any involvement
in getting Sam Neil to speak out on this?
Speaker 4 (11:04):
Certainly not as far as I'm aware. Off I don't
know Sam Neil. I know he's a passionate local and
I'm sure that he doesn't need any invitation to give
his opinion on things that are happening in his area.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
Vanessa, are you any less embarrassed about this than you were?
I think last time we spoke with your medical background,
any any less embarrassed and more embarrassed Now that the
likes of Sam Neil is speaking out about Dunedin Hospital.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
It's clear that passionate locals are going to be saying
a lot about it, and a lot of them have.
And it's understandable that people are upset about this because
this issue around Dunedin has been a hospital has been
going around for more than twenty years. You know, I
was a graduate out of Otago and it was something
that has been discussed when I was at med school.
So look, this is not something that is a new
(11:52):
issue for Dunedin.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
So with your medical head on and let's you will
know people who work at Dunedin Hospital, I imagine, yes, yeah,
do you think it's fair for them and for the
public in Otago and South for example, because it's a
regional hospital. Do you think it's fair for them. This
is with your medical hat on for them to say, look,
just just get on with it and build it and
(12:14):
pay for it. We just need it now.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
Look, we've got to actually look at the whole system,
not just one spot. We've got to prioritize across the
whole country. And frankly, we're not able to get that
job done within that within the budget that was allocated.
We need to relook at it. It's looking like it
would cost more like three billion dollars and it's not
(12:37):
actually something that can be achieved. I think it's right
that we review things and we will build a hospital
in Dunedin. We've increased the budget allocation up an extra
two hundred and ninety million and it is our intention
to get that done. It's just that it may take
a little bit longer and be phased.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
So your intention to get what done.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
To build hospital in Dunedin, to.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Build a hospital of the scale, and it.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
May not be to the same scale.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
I think it's actually that was promised pre election.
Speaker 3 (13:04):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
It may you're not going to meet them.
Speaker 3 (13:07):
Well, it's not going to be able to build to
be built within the amount of money.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
So if it was was that a hollow promise pre election?
Speaker 3 (13:15):
I think it was that we didn't have all of
the information and that actually a lot of the financial
truth of things has only come out since we've been elected.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
And we've found National now regret making that promise.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
Well, I tell you what, we regret the huge amount
of economic mess that was left by previous government.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
But a different way. Should National have made that promise.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
I think when you have information that is thin, you
make one decision. But when you get all of the
information that actually previously they had back in twenty twenty one,
but didn't have the guts to make the decision, it's yeah,
it's it's hard. It's hard when you have to make
these calls.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
If you weren't a politician today and you were still
a doctor, would you be saying the same thing I
think I would be. Would you say yes, I would?
Speaker 3 (13:58):
I would, I absolutely would, Because I think we need
to really evaluate the way that we spend money. We
have to ask ourselves are we getting value for many
other things? Or are we just making stuff up a.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
Couple of health things to take off. The government rejected
advice not long after got into government, or I think
it might have been earlier this year, suggesting from Health
New Zealand that the more user pays be applied in
the hospital system, but the government pushed back on that,
saying that there was a promise to or a commitment
(14:31):
to provide free hospital care. Vanessa, do you think we
will get to the point where we do have to
have more user pays in the public hospital system.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
No, I don't think we will. I think we will
need to look at the way that we spend money
within the health system, and I think we need to
make some tough decisions. But I don't think that it
works very well. And we tried that in the nineties
and it was a unmitigated design.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
You don't think it would be for example, it would
help the likes of emergency departments or you know, after ours,
where people turn up if they knew there was going
to be a fee at the hospital, or they might
think twice.
Speaker 3 (15:06):
I think that we know that it doesn't work particularly well,
and what happens is people avoid care when they should
have it, and it's not.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
A good idea, Tracy, you an agreement absolute.
Speaker 4 (15:16):
One hundred percent. And it's not the people you're assuming
that sometimes it's time waste is turning up to Edie,
But it's the conscientious people that actually do need to
be seen, that think twice about a fee and don't
want to be a burden, and they don't end up
going where and they don't get the treatment that they need,
which costs more down the tracks.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
Right, this is something we're going to get people's view
on shortly on one hundred and eighty ten eighty, but
let's get your reaction to this. Healthy. Experts at the
University of Targo are saying today that New Zealand needs
to stop forcing hospital patients to share rooms and that
there are strong clinical, ethical and legal arguments to make
single bedrooms a basic standard, and they're all new and
(15:52):
refurbished hospitals. Vanessa, Now you've both got an interest in health, Vanessa,
as a doctor, what's your position on that?
Speaker 3 (16:01):
Well, in some ways I really agree, and it makes
it easier to isolate people if they in the same room.
For infectious disease and control, for example, that's a really
strong driver for having single rooms. There's ways of lying,
laying out the format of the places. It can look
quite space effective and still protect people but allow people
(16:25):
to be cared for. And I think it is a
worthy consideration at lead in hospital. Well if it works
and fits in Yes.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
Trace mccleannan, your labour's health infrastructure smokes person, What do
you think about that single rooms versus shared rooms and hospitals.
Speaker 4 (16:40):
Well, I think the idea of having a single room
I think most people would think that that was a
really good ideas.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
Do you think shared rooms are old hat now?
Speaker 4 (16:49):
Well, I think yeah, I do think they're old hat,
but there's something terribly vulnerable about being in hospital and
yet having to share that experience with a complete stranger,
and as well as the infection control and the other
kind of clinical medical kind of considerations there is you
want people feeling as up to it as possible to
(17:09):
get better and I think a little bit of privacy,
which can be achieved not necessarily in four walled single
rooms but with good design, can help that process. And
I think it's just about modernizing our health system.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Do you think the shared hospital rooms are failing people?
Speaker 4 (17:23):
No, I don't think they're failing people. I think there
are just a part of an era where efficiencies and
how people work was probably the main consideration. And I
think we can have the best of both worlds.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
All right, this time next week, in theory, we will
know who the next president of the United States is
going to be. We're going to news talks. It'd be
set of underpeends sort of teacher Jess that we could
put on the wager here. Maybe, no, maybe we can
make some over the weekend. I'll get my Oh, hold on, Jess,
it's got some intel. Oh, I tell you what Jess
(17:55):
has got. Jess has got a relative who was recently
returned from America with some Donald Trump chocolate. So what
we'll do? Is it orange on the inside? Is it
sort of a Jeffer can't kind of influence going on?
Speaker 1 (18:07):
There?
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Are you offering, Jess? Are you saying, Jess, we'll put
that up as a prize, is that we're going to do?
Possibly all right, Okay, she's connected to it, but possibly
all right for the possible prize, possible of some orange chocolate,
of some orange Donald Trump chocolate. Vanessa Winnick, who's your
pick to win?
Speaker 3 (18:26):
When I'm feeling optimistic, Kamala Harris when I'm feeling cynical,
Donald Trump.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
If you want to get the chocolate here, you're chosen.
Come on, Kamala Tamla, all right, Tracey McClellan. Who was
going to win? Not who you want to win? Who's
going to win?
Speaker 4 (18:39):
I think Harris is going to win, So I can't
I can't offer an alternative for the chocolate.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
I'm afraid are we sharing?
Speaker 4 (18:46):
I can't say the words out loud.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
I just can't.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
I can't say what.
Speaker 4 (18:49):
I can't say that Trump would win out loud.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
But do you think he's going to?
Speaker 3 (18:52):
You're concerned?
Speaker 2 (18:53):
So that's just just accomplishation. It's chocolate. Who's going Who
is going to win?
Speaker 4 (18:57):
I think I think Harris, we'll do it, but I'm
concerned about how close it could be.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Okay, all right, well, I think, well you'll have to
share the chocolate. If Jess decides over the week she's
going to give it up. What a what a competition
that is.
Speaker 4 (19:09):
I've got a Donald Trump scarecrow that I purchased it
the Governor's Babe fated a couple of weeks ago. It's fantastic.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
It doesn't does it work well?
Speaker 4 (19:17):
It seems to but he's he's in the front, front
garden of my son's house at the moment, and he'll
he'll go in and watch election night and then depending
on the outcome, you'll either be at the front.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
Think people might miss interpret that.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
I saw it and I thought it was Chris Hopkins.
Speaker 4 (19:32):
That's clearly Donald Trump.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Make the garden grave again.
Speaker 4 (19:35):
It was a bit awkward heavy to carry him to
the car.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
Nice to see you both. Good luck and good luck
in the competition. A lot riding up, Vanessa wenning ha
NICT weekend You to Tracey Mclearman that last weekend.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
Thank you very much for more from Catergory Mornings with
John McDonald. Listen live to News Talk Said be christ
Church from nine am weekdays, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Canterbury Mornings podcast with John McDonald
from News Talk ZB.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
The Politics Friday, Labour's Tracy McLellan Morney, Tracy good Morning,
and National's Vanessa Wedning Morning, Vanessa, good morning. All Right,
this idea or the assertion today from Mike Grimshaw, Associate
professor at the University of Canterbury that there are too
many illiterate students there and they've got to get a
bit more elite and flush some of these people out.
What's your reaction, Vanessa, Well.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Hear what he's saying and listening to some of the comments.
There's many that I agreed with this morning. And the
government recognizes that there's been a drop in outcomes for
students and that's why we're bringing in things like structured
literacy and primary schools.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
So that picks up on the point that he's making
that he's boiling the finger at primary schools. Are you
Are you critical of primary schools.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
I'm not critical of the teachers. I think everyone's working
really hard. I think we've had some some different ways
of approaching things that haven't really worked and we see
that in the outcomes. I think there's another person and
who had a really good point this morning talking about
parents and their need to participate in as well, because
it's not just about schools, it's about reading to your
children and that makes a huge difference.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Tracy mccleol. And this goes back, doesn't it, to this
obsession that Helen Clark fueled back in the nineties. Anyone
who wants to go to university should be able to
go to university.
Speaker 4 (01:25):
Well, I don't know if it was an obsession, but
it is.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
As what she seemed like that at the time.
Speaker 4 (01:29):
But education shouldn't be I don't think education should be elitism,
So I disagree with that. But you're right in so
far as you need to have certain standards to be
able to do well. Otherwise you end up finishing university
with a huge student loan and no real qualification or
no real means by which to you to have made
that a worthwhile process. I think that people learn differently, though,
(01:51):
and it was probably part of that era of recognizing
that people learn differently, and it's not just a cookie cutter,
you know, past this standard or achieve this particular way
of learning. And I do think we have to be inclusive.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
I was picked up by someone who called up last
hour who has a background and recruitment, and they were
picking me up on my assertion that part of the
problem was employers and employers expecting people to have degrees
to work for them who don't necessarily need a degree
to work for them. Which side of that are you on, Vanessa?
Speaker 3 (02:22):
I totally agree it is a shortcut to figuring out
can somebody learn? But when you're recruiting people, you need
a really wide understanding of what they can do, and
it's good to see people who have had a lot
of experience in different areas. I don't think that a
degree is all it's cracked up to be for everybody.
I think that it matters for some things. But I
(02:44):
think the over professionalization of many things in this country
and all around the world is actually doing us a
massive disservice.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
So I can I just tap into maybe what you
might consider to be the unkind assersions about the Labor Party,
For example, Tracy that when it comes to the politicians,
it is full of overqualified and under experienced people. Is
that part of the problem too, that politics is full
of people with qualifications but not much else to offer.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
No.
Speaker 4 (03:11):
I think there's a wide riot. I mean, most people
that have got qualifications also have life experience, don't they.
Not everybody followed the pathway of being a school leaver,
going to university, getting you know, a degree, or you know,
in lieu of having life experience. I know, I didn't
go to university university until I was in my late
twenties and had plenty of life experience.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
What drove you to do that in your late twenties, Oh,
I just had to.
Speaker 4 (03:36):
I was actually working for telecom at the day and
they packed up and left in the cargo. So I
had to figure out what to do. And I went
into a careers counseling service and they said, take this test.
You should be doing something more. So I looked at
university and only you know, my original intention was to
do something for you know, a couple of years or
three years, and ended up being just loving research. So
(03:59):
stayed and stayed.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
So did you come across a few of literate students?
Speaker 4 (04:04):
Well, I did, said that off air, John, thank you
for them.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
I just thought i'd ask you the question, that's all.
Speaker 4 (04:11):
If there was a period of time where I was
in charge of first year students and there was many
people who presented with very varying levels of literacy. But
what I enjoyed about teaching was watching people just flourish
in that environment and taking what they taking the basics
of what they brought to the university with them and
growing and people. Sometimes the people that you didn't expect
(04:34):
would would do really well ended up doing really really well.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
So this is not a new problem that Mike Groomsaw
was talking about today.
Speaker 4 (04:41):
No, I think it's confidence. It's all sorts of things.
And as Vanessa said, you know, people are time poor
these days, and we're not reading to our kids as
much as you know what you and I probably got
read to or read to our own children.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Is there, I'll be your point the finger here. Is
it really excuse saying you don't have time to read
your kids? I don't said that.
Speaker 4 (05:03):
No, I don't. I don't know if it's just time poor,
But I think it's about expectations. And if it didn't,
if you didn't, if you weren't afforded the opportunity to
realize what a gift that was, then it's really hard
when there's pressures coming at you from all different directions
to prioritize that for your own children. And it is
a shame and it is something that I think, you know,
as a society, we should be encouraging people to have
(05:25):
that confidence that it does make a difference.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
There's nothing like reading a story in nodding off what
are you're doing?
Speaker 3 (05:30):
It makes a huge different difference to children's learning to
have their parents read to them. That's why some doctors
give a little gift of books when they do the
six Weeks Tech.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Right, Mike King, he had the phone screaming yesterday up
and down the country. Let's look at this, Tracy Mcleanan,
What what is labor trying to achieve? Say, calling for
the government funding for gun boot Friday to be paused.
Speaker 4 (05:59):
Well, I think Mike King's comments were outrageous to start with,
and it does beg the question is this organized the
organization you want to chuck twenty four million dollars at
when there's plenty of other NGOs who do really good
work with evidence based sound safe practices who have had
their funding cut or they weren't able to contest this money.
(06:23):
So I think there's always been some questions about gunboot Friday.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Are you saying it's not a sound or it does.
Let me check this. Are you saying that Mike King's
organization does not operate in a sound way? Is that
what you're saying.
Speaker 4 (06:36):
I'm saying that when Mike King goes out and makes
ridiculous comments, you've got to ask yourself how far does
the rot go in that organization?
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Rot?
Speaker 4 (06:44):
Yes, what he said yesterday was outrageous rot. Though, Look,
whenever you have a procurement process where no one else
is able to apply for those funds, where it's part
of a coalition agreement, where the legitimacy of the process
raises concerns from all different quarters, I think that organization
(07:05):
needs to be in tip top, tip top operating space
before Mike King can go out and get away with
making comments like that.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
How fair is it to blame or to say that
there is rot within his organization when actually it was
a government that maybe operated in a bit of a
dodgy handing out the money. Yeah, how can you cut
tarnish them both with the same brand.
Speaker 4 (07:27):
I don't think I'm tarnishing them both?
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Well, talk about rott.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
No, I think there's always.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
Been concerns about gun boot Friday, and we know that
there's been several resignations from the board just recently. Todd
Muller XMP. He's up and left is not the only
one when things like that happen, it does.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
What's the background to his departure?
Speaker 4 (07:46):
Well, I only read what I read in the media.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Well there for you don't know what we talking about.
Speaker 4 (07:50):
Well, I know that he's left.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Well when you have to say that, well, I just think.
Speaker 4 (07:54):
That gunboot Friday has a checkered past, and Mike King
going around talking rubbish like that yesterday doesn't help their cause.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
And it's a rotten organization.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
No, I didn't say that.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
We'll see it's got rotten it.
Speaker 4 (08:04):
Well, lots of things can have, you know, some dubious practices,
and I think this organization is one that needs to
stand up to a really high level of scrutiny given
the government essentially just handed it money without going through
a proper process.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
Vanessa wennick Oll, I think there's a bit of rotten
the Labor Party. There's but you know, the comments that
he made, I just don't agree with them. I've got
a lot of respect for what gun bout Friday does.
I think that it's fantastic that more kids can get
counseling when they need it, and I think that's really important.
The rest of it, you know, I don't have a
(08:42):
good understanding of the workings of that organization, so I
couldn't make a comment on that. But look, absolutely alcohol
is a depressant. It makes mental health worse. People self
medicating with alcohol is an absolute part of the problem,
and it's part of diagnoses that people have. Mike King
(09:05):
admit that he is an alcoholic and a drug addict
and has self medicated worth alcohol himself. I wonder if
really what he was saying was, look, this is part
of the problem, rather than actually, you know, getting a snippet.
I didn't hear the full context of what he said,
but yeah, clearly alcohol is not a cure. It is
(09:27):
part of the harm.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Given those twenty four million dollars involved with public money,
do you think there should be some sort of as
part of the arrangement might be after the fact, now,
some sort of gagging clause on Mike.
Speaker 3 (09:38):
King, And I don't know that that would work.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
Actually, So it's fine for the money to say flowing
and Mike King is that what he wants. So as
far as the government's concerned.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
Well, I think that we distance ourselves completely from what
he sees and totally disagree with his statements.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
So do you see that any merit? And what Trace
is talking about, what Labour's talking about saying let's put
a pause and have a look at this outfit.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
Well, I think that's just pure politicking.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
Can I just invite you to elaborate on your reference
to dodgy practices within Mike King's organization? What did you
mean there?
Speaker 4 (10:13):
Oh, look, dodgy practice is probably a bit harsh. I
just think that.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
All Well, why'd you say it? What did you mean?
Speaker 4 (10:22):
Because I don't think that. I think there's been some
gray areas about some of their practices for quite a
long period of time. I mean, most people that I
know that work in those fields would have concerns about
the level of leadership, the level of qualification of people
in clinical leadership roles, and about the models that they
(10:42):
are operating under. I don't think it's best practice.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
All right, let's look at the Dunedan Hospital. Sam Neil
has joined the Frainer actor sam Neil saying what the
government's looking at doing with Dunedan Hospital careless, heartless and ruthless.
Can I just clarify, Tracy, did Labor have any involvement
in getting Sam Neil to speak out on this?
Speaker 4 (11:04):
Certainly not as far as I'm aware. Off I don't
know Sam Neil. I know he's a passionate local and
I'm sure that he doesn't need any invitation to give
his opinion on things that are happening in his area.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
Vanessa, are you any less embarrassed about this than you were?
I think last time we spoke with your medical background,
any any less embarrassed and more embarrassed Now that the
likes of Sam Neil is speaking out about Dunedin Hospital.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
It's clear that passionate locals are going to be saying
a lot about it, and a lot of them have.
And it's understandable that people are upset about this because
this issue around Dunedin has been a hospital has been
going around for more than twenty years. You know, I
was a graduate out of Otago and it was something
that has been discussed when I was at med school.
So look, this is not something that is a new
(11:52):
issue for Dunedin.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
So with your medical head on and let's you will
know people who work at Dunedin Hospital, I imagine, yes, yeah,
do you think it's fair for them and for the
public in Otago and South for example, because it's a
regional hospital. Do you think it's fair for them. This
is with your medical hat on for them to say, look,
just just get on with it and build it and
(12:14):
pay for it. We just need it now.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
Look, we've got to actually look at the whole system,
not just one spot. We've got to prioritize across the
whole country. And frankly, we're not able to get that
job done within that within the budget that was allocated.
We need to relook at it. It's looking like it
would cost more like three billion dollars and it's not
(12:37):
actually something that can be achieved. I think it's right
that we review things and we will build a hospital
in Dunedin. We've increased the budget allocation up an extra
two hundred and ninety million and it is our intention
to get that done. It's just that it may take
a little bit longer and be phased.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
So your intention to get what done.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
To build hospital in Dunedin, to.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Build a hospital of the scale, and it.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
May not be to the same scale.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
I think it's actually that was promised pre election.
Speaker 3 (13:04):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
It may you're not going to meet them.
Speaker 3 (13:07):
Well, it's not going to be able to build to
be built within the amount of money.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
So if it was was that a hollow promise pre election?
Speaker 3 (13:15):
I think it was that we didn't have all of
the information and that actually a lot of the financial
truth of things has only come out since we've been elected.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
And we've found National now regret making that promise.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
Well, I tell you what, we regret the huge amount
of economic mess that was left by previous government.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
But a different way. Should National have made that promise.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
I think when you have information that is thin, you
make one decision. But when you get all of the
information that actually previously they had back in twenty twenty one,
but didn't have the guts to make the decision, it's yeah,
it's it's hard. It's hard when you have to make
these calls.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
If you weren't a politician today and you were still
a doctor, would you be saying the same thing I
think I would be. Would you say yes, I would?
Speaker 3 (13:58):
I would, I absolutely would, Because I think we need
to really evaluate the way that we spend money. We
have to ask ourselves are we getting value for many
other things? Or are we just making stuff up a.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
Couple of health things to take off. The government rejected
advice not long after got into government, or I think
it might have been earlier this year, suggesting from Health
New Zealand that the more user pays be applied in
the hospital system, but the government pushed back on that,
saying that there was a promise to or a commitment
(14:31):
to provide free hospital care. Vanessa, do you think we
will get to the point where we do have to
have more user pays in the public hospital system.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
No, I don't think we will. I think we will
need to look at the way that we spend money
within the health system, and I think we need to
make some tough decisions. But I don't think that it
works very well. And we tried that in the nineties
and it was a unmitigated design.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
You don't think it would be for example, it would
help the likes of emergency departments or you know, after ours,
where people turn up if they knew there was going
to be a fee at the hospital, or they might
think twice.
Speaker 3 (15:06):
I think that we know that it doesn't work particularly well,
and what happens is people avoid care when they should
have it, and it's not.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
A good idea, Tracy, you an agreement absolute.
Speaker 4 (15:16):
One hundred percent. And it's not the people you're assuming
that sometimes it's time waste is turning up to Edie,
But it's the conscientious people that actually do need to
be seen, that think twice about a fee and don't
want to be a burden, and they don't end up
going where and they don't get the treatment that they need,
which costs more down the tracks.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
Right, this is something we're going to get people's view
on shortly on one hundred and eighty ten eighty, but
let's get your reaction to this. Healthy. Experts at the
University of Targo are saying today that New Zealand needs
to stop forcing hospital patients to share rooms and that
there are strong clinical, ethical and legal arguments to make
single bedrooms a basic standard, and they're all new and
(15:52):
refurbished hospitals. Vanessa, Now you've both got an interest in health, Vanessa,
as a doctor, what's your position on that?
Speaker 3 (16:01):
Well, in some ways I really agree, and it makes
it easier to isolate people if they in the same room.
For infectious disease and control, for example, that's a really
strong driver for having single rooms. There's ways of lying,
laying out the format of the places. It can look
quite space effective and still protect people but allow people
(16:25):
to be cared for. And I think it is a
worthy consideration at lead in hospital. Well if it works
and fits in Yes.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
Trace mccleannan, your labour's health infrastructure smokes person, What do
you think about that single rooms versus shared rooms and hospitals.
Speaker 4 (16:40):
Well, I think the idea of having a single room
I think most people would think that that was a
really good ideas.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
Do you think shared rooms are old hat now?
Speaker 4 (16:49):
Well, I think yeah, I do think they're old hat,
but there's something terribly vulnerable about being in hospital and
yet having to share that experience with a complete stranger,
and as well as the infection control and the other
kind of clinical medical kind of considerations there is you
want people feeling as up to it as possible to
(17:09):
get better and I think a little bit of privacy,
which can be achieved not necessarily in four walled single
rooms but with good design, can help that process. And
I think it's just about modernizing our health system.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Do you think the shared hospital rooms are failing people?
Speaker 4 (17:23):
No, I don't think they're failing people. I think there
are just a part of an era where efficiencies and
how people work was probably the main consideration. And I
think we can have the best of both worlds.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
All right, this time next week, in theory, we will
know who the next president of the United States is
going to be. We're going to news talks. It'd be
set of underpeends sort of teacher Jess that we could
put on the wager here. Maybe, no, maybe we can
make some over the weekend. I'll get my Oh, hold on, Jess,
it's got some intel. Oh, I tell you what Jess
(17:55):
has got. Jess has got a relative who was recently
returned from America with some Donald Trump chocolate. So what
we'll do? Is it orange on the inside? Is it
sort of a Jeffer can't kind of influence going on?
Speaker 1 (18:07):
There?
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Are you offering, Jess? Are you saying, Jess, we'll put
that up as a prize, is that we're going to do?
Possibly all right, Okay, she's connected to it, but possibly
all right for the possible prize, possible of some orange chocolate,
of some orange Donald Trump chocolate. Vanessa Winnick, who's your
pick to win?
Speaker 3 (18:26):
When I'm feeling optimistic, Kamala Harris when I'm feeling cynical,
Donald Trump.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
If you want to get the chocolate here, you're chosen.
Come on, Kamala Tamla, all right, Tracey McClellan. Who was
going to win? Not who you want to win? Who's
going to win?
Speaker 4 (18:39):
I think Harris is going to win, So I can't
I can't offer an alternative for the chocolate.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
I'm afraid are we sharing?
Speaker 4 (18:46):
I can't say the words out loud.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
I just can't.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
I can't say what.
Speaker 4 (18:49):
I can't say that Trump would win out loud.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
But do you think he's going to?
Speaker 3 (18:52):
You're concerned?
Speaker 2 (18:53):
So that's just just accomplishation. It's chocolate. Who's going Who
is going to win?
Speaker 4 (18:57):
I think I think Harris, we'll do it, but I'm
concerned about how close it could be.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Okay, all right, well, I think, well you'll have to
share the chocolate. If Jess decides over the week she's
going to give it up. What a what a competition
that is.
Speaker 4 (19:09):
I've got a Donald Trump scarecrow that I purchased it
the Governor's Babe fated a couple of weeks ago. It's fantastic.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
It doesn't does it work well?
Speaker 4 (19:17):
It seems to but he's he's in the front, front
garden of my son's house at the moment, and he'll
he'll go in and watch election night and then depending
on the outcome, you'll either be at the front.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
Think people might miss interpret that.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
I saw it and I thought it was Chris Hopkins.
Speaker 4 (19:32):
That's clearly Donald Trump.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Make the garden grave again.
Speaker 4 (19:35):
It was a bit awkward heavy to carry him to
the car.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
Nice to see you both. Good luck and good luck
in the competition. A lot riding up, Vanessa wenning ha
NICT weekend You to Tracey Mclearman that last weekend.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
Thank you very much for more from Catergory Mornings with
John McDonald. Listen live to News Talk Said be christ
Church from nine am weekdays, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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