John MacDonald: Boot camps must not add to our abuse shame

The plan to give “use of force” powers to the people running the Government’s new boot camps for young criminals is getting a bit of attention today. Or military academies as the Prime Minister was calling them this morning.

The Children’s Minister has got this idea that, if you’re involved in running a boot camp, you should have the same powers as the police and you should be allowed to use force.

The Prime Minister, though, doesn't seem to be so keen.

He’s going to stand up next week and issue a formal apology for the abuse that happened to kids in care in New Zealand over the years and he knows that giving “use of force” powers to the boot camp people could see history repeat itself.

Which raises the philosophical discussion about what these camps or academies are all about.

Or what they’re going to be about once the appropriate legislation has been passed that enables them to be set up and run as the Government wants them to run.

Because, as you’ll know, there’s a boot camp trial up and running and the Prime Minister’s been there and seems to have been impressed by what he saw.

He was talking this morning about kids helping out with landscaping and concreting work, and being busy learning about job interviews and writing CVs.

But remember that, because the relevant legislation hasn’t been passed yet, no one can be sent there or forced to go there yet. At the moment, it’s just kids who have volunteered who are doing the programme.

So, if they’ve put their hand up to be sent there, chances are they’re going to be the kids who will impress the Prime Minister because, if they want to be there, they obviously want to do something different with their lives. So, of course, they’re going to be motivated to help with stuff and want to find out what it takes to get a job.

It’s going to be a completely different story when you get kids being sent there by the courts.

And it’s at that point that the Children’s Minister wants people there who, effectively, will have the same powers as the Police and who will be able to use force to keep these kids under control.  

But I can see why the Prime Minister’s a bit antsy about that. Because the last thing he wants to do is to give the green light for something that could lead to more abuse.

But if you can’t use force at a boot camp, then how does that make it any different to the facilities we already have for young criminals?

These are the youth justice facilities that Oranga Tamariki currently runs. OT is also running the boot camps. But if the boot camps aren’t any different than what we have at the moment —in terms of discipline— then why would you bother with them?

I don’t know if the Prime Minister has been to a youth justice facility, but I have. These are the places our worst young criminals currently go to and the one I went to was pretty much like a prison. A god awful, depressing place.

But they don't work. Yes, they keep these kids locked up, but I seem to recall that the re-offending rate is about 75%. That’s what makes them so depressing. Because for a lot of these kids, they do their time in youth justice and then graduate to adult prisons.

Which is why the Government wants the boot camps.

The question is: how tough should these places be? And what powers should the people running them have?

For example: I’ve got no problem with force being used if someone is endangering themselves or endangering others.

But should they be allowed to use force if one of these kids is refusing to get out of bed?

Because, while I think “use of force” probably sounds exactly like the thing you’d expect at a boot camp for bad kids, I think it could be another abuse in care disaster waiting to happen.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Canterbury Morning's Podcast with John McDonald
from Newstalk ZB.

Speaker 2 (00:12):
The plan to give use of force powers to the
people running the government's new boot camps for young criminals,
it's getting a bit of attention today, or should I
say military academies as the Prime Minister was calling them
this morning. I'll probably flip flop a boot camp military academy,
same thing as far as I'm concerned now at the
moment in relation to these use of force powers. At

(00:37):
the moment, only the police have them, and they pretty
much let police use force to detain someone or to
stop them from doing something. But you see, the Children's
Minister's got this idea that if you're a non police
person involved in running a boot camp, you should have
the same powers and you should be allowed to use force.

(00:59):
If you heard the Prime Minister, though I'm with Mike
this morning, it seems that he's not in favor of that,
and I'm with him to an extent. This was after
Mike pointed out to Crystal Luxeon that he's going to
stand up next week an issue this formal apology for
the abuse that happened to kids in care in New
Zealand over the years, but at the same time, giving

(01:20):
use for force powers to the boot camp people could
see history repeat itself and the same thing happened all
over again. That's why Mike custom whether the idea of
force being used to control these kids at the boot
camps or the military academies, whether it's comfortably with him.
And here's what Christoph Luxeon.

Speaker 3 (01:40):
Said, No, I want to make sure that there is
multiple approaches around oversight and protection of those young people.
And so that's where I'd be coming down in that
conversation when we get to have that conversation.

Speaker 2 (01:51):
Yeah, but multiple oversight of the ability to use force
or multiple oversight of the ability not to be able
to use force.

Speaker 3 (02:00):
Not to use force. I think, I think I appreciate
these are really difficult kids and individuals, but the street
here is shocking. And what I really want to see
as a culture shift and change to focus on the care, rehabilitation,
the layers of protection and oversight and child safeguarding.

Speaker 2 (02:17):
Is that when you thought about when you heard about
boot camps, because this rais is, doesn't it. The philosophical
discussion about what these camps or these academies are all about.
Or what they're going to be about once the appropriate
legislation has been passed that enables them to be set
up and to be run as the government wants them
to be run. Because, as you know, at the moment
there's a boot camp trial. It's up and running, and

(02:38):
the Prime Minister has been there and he seems to
have been impressed by what he saw going on what
he was saying to Mike this morning, and I was
talking about kids helping up with landscaping and concreting work
and kids being busy learning about job in the views
and writing CVS. But that's all very well, but remember this,
because the relevant legislation hasn't been passed yet, no one

(03:00):
can be sent there or forced to go there yet.
At the moment, it's just kids who are volunteered who
are doing program. So if they've put the hand up
to be sent there, chances are they're going to be
the kids who will impress the Prime Minister because if
they want to be there, they obviously want to do
something different with their lives, so of course they're going
to be motivated to help with stuff and you know,

(03:20):
be useful and find out what it takes to get
a job all of that stuff. It's going to be
a completely different story though, when you get kids being
sent there by the courts. And it's at that point
that the Children's Minister wants people there who effectively will
have the same powers as the police and who will
be able to use force to keep these kids under control.

(03:41):
But I can see why the Prime Minister's a bit
ancy about that because the last thing he wants to do,
ah is to give the green light for something that
could lead to more abuse, which is where the concern
about the Children's Minister's plan comes from. And this is
why it's such a philosophical good discussion because think about
it this way. If you can't use force at a

(04:01):
boot camp, then how does it make it any different
to the facilities already have for young criminals. These are
the youth justice facilities at Udonga Tamadiki currently runs. OT
is also running the boot camps. But if the boot
camps aren't any different than what we have at the
moment in terms of discipline, why would you bother with

(04:23):
them now? I don't know if the Prime minist has
been to a youth justice facility. I have, and these
are the places where our worst young criminals go to
at the moment, and the one I went to was
pretty much like a prison. It was a god awful,
god awful depressing place. But they don't work. Yep, they
keep the kids locked up. But I seem to recall

(04:43):
that the re offending rate is something like seventy five percent.
That's what makes them so depressing because for a lot
of these kids, they do their time in youth justice.
Then let us graduate to the adult prisons. And this
is why the government wants the boot camps. The question is, though,
and this is what I want your take on. How
tough should these places be and what powers should the

(05:06):
people running them have? Now, for example, I've got no
problem with force being used if someone is endangering themselves
or endangering others, no problem with that. But shouldn't they
be allowed to use force if one of these kids
is just refusing to get out of bed in the morning,
for example, Well, I said absolutely not. Why would you say, yeah, yeah,

(05:27):
do whatever you want to get them out of bed.
Because while I think that you know, use of force
probably sounds exactly like the thing you'd expect at a
boot camp for bad kids, I reckon it could be
another abuse and care disaster Waiting to Happen.

Speaker 1 (05:45):
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