December 12, 2024 • 14 mins
A regular weekly contributor to the show up until last year, Gerry Brownlee is finishing his first full year as Speaker of the House.
Brownlee joined John MacDonald to reflect on his year amid the continuing drama in Parliament.
He says has been a very democratic year in the chamber.
When elected to the position this time last year, Brownlee said it was his job to protect MPs rights to speak freely.
He says he feels he's done this job well, ensuring debate in the house was well facilitated.
Brownlee says he's been particularly liberal in allowing MPs to express themselves –particularly in a parliament where there is a balanced opposition and Government.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Canterbury Mornings podcast with John McDonald
from News Talk ZB Jerry Brown.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
The morning, Good morning, Now the bells aren't.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
I've almost forgotten and you are.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
It's not a very nice thing to say just before Christmas.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
It's just well, I haven't had an limitation all here.
It's been very lonely.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Well it's been it's been almost as lonely here. You know,
when you when you were elected Speaker last December, I
was reading you said it was your job to protect
MP's rights to speak freely and to go about their
business around the country unimpeded. How do you think you've
delivered on.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
That pretty well? You have to tell me somewhere where
I've failed. I think I've been particularly I only use
the word lenient, but liberal in allowing MPs to express themselves,
particularly in a parliament where at the moment you've got
(01:05):
pretty much balanced opposition and a government which we haven't
had for a while, with three parties in the coalition,
three in the opposition, with all of them having intent
one way or the other. And so that does create
situations where people will periodically be saying things that other
(01:29):
parts of the party of the Parliament might not be
particularly appreciative of. But if you're on the floor of
the Parliament and you are not making personal reflections, speaking
entirely about policy, then you've got a right to say
those things.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
So Julia and Genta, when she ran up to Matt Doercy,
that was fine.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
Well, no, because the standing orders and the rules of
the House make it very clear that you do not
interrupt the debate. A debate was in play at the time.
She left her seat and advanced across the floor of
the House to make a fairy interesting you might say,
(02:06):
loud a series of gestures and commentary to Matt Deacy.
Now that matter was referred to the Privileges Committee, and
the Privileges Committee made its ruling. Julian Chens in fact
twice said to well, it's not only appeared to the
Privileges Committee, but also apologize to the House twice for
(02:26):
that disruption.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
What about the harker though, because that was prior to
the debate, wasn't.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
It the harker? No, No, it wasn't. The harker is
in this case not in question, especially that the harker
was performed once immediately when Hannah, I think he might
be clark stood to cast a vote, and rather than
do so, chose to pick up the copy of the
(02:55):
bill and rip it up and begin the opening of
a harker. Now, disruption of a vote in the House
is a serious impediment to the House conducting its business.
It's completely unacceptable. And further to that, if there was
to be a harker from the gallery, then it would
(03:18):
have been a normal practice for the Speaker to have
been notified that that was about to happen. Further, there
were four members who left their seats, stood on the
floor of the Parliament while it was in session, and
three of us members advancing on another party with the
full sort of life of the harker taking place. Those
(03:40):
things are very disorderly, very disruptive, and I think cut
across the bounds of an individual's right for free speech
by impeding the right of the House to speak freely.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
You also said last year when you were elected Speaker
that during your time as mp' there'd been seven speakers
and at some point many of them had come under attack.
Even said you were guilty of giving speakers a hard
time in the past. How have you coped with the
flak you've got this year.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
Well, I don't think it's been too bad, and I
think you have to recognize that you're no more elected
in that House than anyone else. You have simply chosen
by the House to sit in a seat that is
essentially to adjudicate the proceedings of Parliament. I hope I've
done okay. In recent days, it's been a bit of
a kafuffle over a decision that I made to bring
(04:31):
down a new Speaker's ruling when it came to the
intersection between what is the government bill and what is
a private bill. And you know that there's been sit
a lot made of the fact that I overruled the
Clerk of the House and I overruled the Deputy Speaker.
Neither of those things are correct because until there was
(04:53):
a new ruling, then the clerk and the deputy had
to work on the rulings that existed. They both did that,
and then I brought down a new ruling.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Okay, I don't want to get too bowed down that Jarry, because.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
That's the problem. No one wants to get bolgd down.
So they listened to the thirty second sound bite that
says that I've overruled the system and done something I shouldn't.
That is absolutely wrong.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
So when Labor said this week that it didn't have
confidence in you, and when ACT did the same back
in August, what does that do to your confidence any
your ability to do the job.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
Nothing. You've just got to carry on doing the job
the way you say it should be done. And you know,
if they want to follow through with those things, they
put a noted emotion on the order paper, it's not
picked up by the House within a certain period of time,
they need to restate it if they want to, and
so on that it's, you know, one of those It
(05:46):
looks it's a Parliament should be a place where people
express what they're thinking at the time, and I don't
have a problem with that.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
So Jerry, when you speak, your Parliament's referee, but you're
also Parliament's landlord. Which of those two is more challenging.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
The landlord part can be challenging because we've got a
building program going on. We've also got one hundred and
twenty three MPs crammed into three buildings. I think it
is where we once said go in house, but it's
now out because of its earthquake status. So yeah, that
(06:27):
that can cause a few difficulties at times, but the
main job, of course is to protect the legislative process,
to make sure that Parliament functions properly and that people
are able to within standing orders participate appropriately in the House.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
So Chrystopher Axon is still in your boss, isn't he?
Speaker 3 (06:47):
Well, I'm a member of the National Caucus. So don't
attend the caucus meetings.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
Oh you don't, You don't, No.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
No, definitely not. That would be that would be taking
part of their positions. The only one only meetings that
I would attend would be where it might be a
day session away from Parliament. But that's very very rare.
I've I don't think i've been. I went to one
at the beginning of the year, but I haven't been since.
And I think that's separation is pretty important because I
(07:17):
can't sit in that year with preconceived views. I've certainly
I'm not going to change, you know, pretty much a
whole of my adult with political view. But the way
the way you hear an argument is a different matter.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Does it get a bit lonely?
Speaker 3 (07:34):
Yes, well I can too, but that's got its advantages
as well.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
What do you mean by that, well, I mean you.
Speaker 3 (07:43):
Spend a lot of time with people who work in
the Clerk's office, people who work in the Parliamentary Council,
people who work in the administration of the whole of
the Parliamentary service, and you get an entirely different perspective
that certainly in all the years that I've been there,
I didn't have because I've never been exposed to how
(08:06):
or the met chanism of how the democracy works. I've
found that very interesting.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
So you don't go to the caucus meetings. What about
if you're having lunch and a nationally INMP comes and
sits with you to have lunch, do you talk about
policy stuff or is all that stuff off the radar?
Speaker 3 (08:21):
Well, if you're talking about in a public place and
you wouldn't be talking policy.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Anyway, no, no, But at Parliament your restaurants.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
Right, that's right, Yeah, that's right, which is surrounded by
where you're surrounded by all parties and people who work
at other parties. So it tends not to be a
political conversation in there. Beyond when you think something will happen,
how long do you think something will take? All that
type of thing.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
It must be like someone. It must be policy, must
be like someone. You know, they're at work and they're
one of the team, and then they get a promotion
to being one of the managers. It's only the whole
relationship between colleagues changes.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
No, not not on a personal level. But you remember
that if one of those people transgresses somehow in the house,
then it's my job to pull up. So you know,
everyone knows those roles, everyone understands the bounds as to
how that works. And look, you know obviously spent a
long period of time in parliament. You meet up with
(09:17):
friends on both sides of the house, not close personal friends,
but people that you are friendly with because you've worked
with them in so many other different roles.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
So do you reckon that maybe early in the piece
you might have been harder on national MP's just to
show that you were you were you know equal.
Speaker 3 (09:36):
Look, I remember that early in the piece there were
there were only a couple of the current ministry who
had been in that role before. So ministers themselves were
finding out what the bounds of of of their contribution
could be. And it's simply pulling them up on those
(09:56):
things is quite appropriate.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Let's just finish off on parliamentary standards, because they've been
in the news this year with Karen Chure saying she
felt unsafe and under attack and David seymore unhappy about them,
wouldn't take off the blooming lapel badge, and then we've
got the you know, we've talked about the hiker ahead
of the during the treaty Principals debate during in parliament.
From a speaker's perspective, is more difficult to control today
(10:19):
than it might have been in the past.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
I think it's that the people who contribute to the
part to the parliament make the differences to how the
parliament feels. Every parliament has a slightly different feel to it.
In my experience, this one is there's a kind of
a It's different because you've got a very strong Maori
Party that are in contest with the Labor Party on
(10:44):
a lot of things, a Green Party that is both
you know, what's environmentally as well as socially inclined and
has quite a commitment to the tekung of Mardi. So
that that leads you with a set of arrangements in
(11:08):
Parliament that don't recognize some of those things. So that
creates a difficulty at times, but it's up to the
Parliament itself to work it through when it comes through
things like current Shore, I think anybody who looked at
some of the exceptionally aggressive questioning that was directed her
way quite reasonable questioning and so much as it's permissible,
(11:29):
but unreasonable in some of what it was infering, I think, yes,
she has a had a hard time. She's, in my opinion,
a courageous minister who's doing a job. Not every minister
will gain the factory, few ministers will gain the approval
of opposition parties. All I've got to do is make
sure that there is the interaction inside the House appropriate
(11:53):
and that outside the house members don't feel like they
are personally or physically threatened. And that's quite a challenge
moving forward. That's something that in my experience is quite
new and we're doing quite got to work on that
at the moment. It's seeing that you know that in
the age the keyboard warrior, there's a whole lot of
(12:14):
potential threats that you might have dissipated in the past,
because come on, someone couldn't be bothered by writing a letter,
but you know, thirty seconds on a keyboard and there,
It is right out in front of you. So you
have to take all that very seriously.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
How concerned are you for the security of MPs.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
I think ever since we thought were just going sure
James James, James James saw who I do consider at
fact in the street. I think there's been a heightened
awareness of the potential dangers for MPs. And there are
(12:51):
some at the moment who are taking pretty strong public positions,
and that does, you know, heighten the level of reaction
from across the the I suppose you say that the
population where there are people who are prepared to go
out and make threats. It's all very well sort of
being unhappy with a policy and expressing it to those
(13:15):
who want to listen, but to actually take that step
further and say if you do this, then I'm going
to do this. That that is something slightly on the increase,
and we do have to monitor that. And we're not
only monitor We're going to have to do something about that.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
You know, where the bells going to get them all
into the house?
Speaker 3 (13:33):
Yep?
Speaker 2 (13:33):
As speaker, do you press the button to make that
happen or you've got someone to do it for you.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
No, I don't do that. I think it's all in
some automated system.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Oh that's too modern. What are you doing? What are
you doing for summer?
Speaker 3 (13:47):
Well, be home in christ for a good stretch, which
will be good. Sometimes it's good just to stop where
you are and draw breath, and then I think, no secret.
I have spend quite a bit of time over that
sonar period inside the Flora sounds, which would be good.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Run. Yet, Well, i'll tell you what. It's been a
long year without you, Jerry.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
Oh well, that's the way life is. You know. At
least you've resurrected me at the death.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
Maybe next Christmas we'd have another fireside chat.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
Okay, it would be very good.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
Thanks, very nice to hear.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Thank you for more from Caterbory Mornings with John McDonald.
Listen live to news talks at be Christ Church from
nine am weekdays, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Canterbury Mornings podcast with John McDonald
from News Talk ZB Jerry Brown.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
The morning, Good morning, Now the bells aren't.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
I've almost forgotten and you are.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
It's not a very nice thing to say just before Christmas.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
It's just well, I haven't had an limitation all here.
It's been very lonely.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Well it's been it's been almost as lonely here. You know,
when you when you were elected Speaker last December, I
was reading you said it was your job to protect
MP's rights to speak freely and to go about their
business around the country unimpeded. How do you think you've
delivered on.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
That pretty well? You have to tell me somewhere where
I've failed. I think I've been particularly I only use
the word lenient, but liberal in allowing MPs to express themselves,
particularly in a parliament where at the moment you've got
(01:05):
pretty much balanced opposition and a government which we haven't
had for a while, with three parties in the coalition,
three in the opposition, with all of them having intent
one way or the other. And so that does create
situations where people will periodically be saying things that other
(01:29):
parts of the party of the Parliament might not be
particularly appreciative of. But if you're on the floor of
the Parliament and you are not making personal reflections, speaking
entirely about policy, then you've got a right to say
those things.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
So Julia and Genta, when she ran up to Matt Doercy,
that was fine.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
Well, no, because the standing orders and the rules of
the House make it very clear that you do not
interrupt the debate. A debate was in play at the time.
She left her seat and advanced across the floor of
the House to make a fairy interesting you might say,
(02:06):
loud a series of gestures and commentary to Matt Deacy.
Now that matter was referred to the Privileges Committee, and
the Privileges Committee made its ruling. Julian Chens in fact
twice said to well, it's not only appeared to the
Privileges Committee, but also apologize to the House twice for
(02:26):
that disruption.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
What about the harker though, because that was prior to
the debate, wasn't.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
It the harker? No, No, it wasn't. The harker is
in this case not in question, especially that the harker
was performed once immediately when Hannah, I think he might
be clark stood to cast a vote, and rather than
do so, chose to pick up the copy of the
(02:55):
bill and rip it up and begin the opening of
a harker. Now, disruption of a vote in the House
is a serious impediment to the House conducting its business.
It's completely unacceptable. And further to that, if there was
to be a harker from the gallery, then it would
(03:18):
have been a normal practice for the Speaker to have
been notified that that was about to happen. Further, there
were four members who left their seats, stood on the
floor of the Parliament while it was in session, and
three of us members advancing on another party with the
full sort of life of the harker taking place. Those
(03:40):
things are very disorderly, very disruptive, and I think cut
across the bounds of an individual's right for free speech
by impeding the right of the House to speak freely.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
You also said last year when you were elected Speaker
that during your time as mp' there'd been seven speakers
and at some point many of them had come under attack.
Even said you were guilty of giving speakers a hard
time in the past. How have you coped with the
flak you've got this year.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
Well, I don't think it's been too bad, and I
think you have to recognize that you're no more elected
in that House than anyone else. You have simply chosen
by the House to sit in a seat that is
essentially to adjudicate the proceedings of Parliament. I hope I've
done okay. In recent days, it's been a bit of
a kafuffle over a decision that I made to bring
(04:31):
down a new Speaker's ruling when it came to the
intersection between what is the government bill and what is
a private bill. And you know that there's been sit
a lot made of the fact that I overruled the
Clerk of the House and I overruled the Deputy Speaker.
Neither of those things are correct because until there was
(04:53):
a new ruling, then the clerk and the deputy had
to work on the rulings that existed. They both did that,
and then I brought down a new ruling.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Okay, I don't want to get too bowed down that Jarry, because.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
That's the problem. No one wants to get bolgd down.
So they listened to the thirty second sound bite that
says that I've overruled the system and done something I shouldn't.
That is absolutely wrong.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
So when Labor said this week that it didn't have
confidence in you, and when ACT did the same back
in August, what does that do to your confidence any
your ability to do the job.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
Nothing. You've just got to carry on doing the job
the way you say it should be done. And you know,
if they want to follow through with those things, they
put a noted emotion on the order paper, it's not
picked up by the House within a certain period of time,
they need to restate it if they want to, and
so on that it's, you know, one of those It
(05:46):
looks it's a Parliament should be a place where people
express what they're thinking at the time, and I don't
have a problem with that.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
So Jerry, when you speak, your Parliament's referee, but you're
also Parliament's landlord. Which of those two is more challenging.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
The landlord part can be challenging because we've got a
building program going on. We've also got one hundred and
twenty three MPs crammed into three buildings. I think it
is where we once said go in house, but it's
now out because of its earthquake status. So yeah, that
(06:27):
that can cause a few difficulties at times, but the
main job, of course is to protect the legislative process,
to make sure that Parliament functions properly and that people
are able to within standing orders participate appropriately in the House.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
So Chrystopher Axon is still in your boss, isn't he?
Speaker 3 (06:47):
Well, I'm a member of the National Caucus. So don't
attend the caucus meetings.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
Oh you don't, You don't, No.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
No, definitely not. That would be that would be taking
part of their positions. The only one only meetings that
I would attend would be where it might be a
day session away from Parliament. But that's very very rare.
I've I don't think i've been. I went to one
at the beginning of the year, but I haven't been since.
And I think that's separation is pretty important because I
(07:17):
can't sit in that year with preconceived views. I've certainly
I'm not going to change, you know, pretty much a
whole of my adult with political view. But the way
the way you hear an argument is a different matter.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Does it get a bit lonely?
Speaker 3 (07:34):
Yes, well I can too, but that's got its advantages
as well.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
What do you mean by that, well, I mean you.
Speaker 3 (07:43):
Spend a lot of time with people who work in
the Clerk's office, people who work in the Parliamentary Council,
people who work in the administration of the whole of
the Parliamentary service, and you get an entirely different perspective
that certainly in all the years that I've been there,
I didn't have because I've never been exposed to how
(08:06):
or the met chanism of how the democracy works. I've
found that very interesting.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
So you don't go to the caucus meetings. What about
if you're having lunch and a nationally INMP comes and
sits with you to have lunch, do you talk about
policy stuff or is all that stuff off the radar?
Speaker 3 (08:21):
Well, if you're talking about in a public place and
you wouldn't be talking policy.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Anyway, no, no, But at Parliament your restaurants.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
Right, that's right, Yeah, that's right, which is surrounded by
where you're surrounded by all parties and people who work
at other parties. So it tends not to be a
political conversation in there. Beyond when you think something will happen,
how long do you think something will take? All that
type of thing.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
It must be like someone. It must be policy, must
be like someone. You know, they're at work and they're
one of the team, and then they get a promotion
to being one of the managers. It's only the whole
relationship between colleagues changes.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
No, not not on a personal level. But you remember
that if one of those people transgresses somehow in the house,
then it's my job to pull up. So you know,
everyone knows those roles, everyone understands the bounds as to
how that works. And look, you know obviously spent a
long period of time in parliament. You meet up with
(09:17):
friends on both sides of the house, not close personal friends,
but people that you are friendly with because you've worked
with them in so many other different roles.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
So do you reckon that maybe early in the piece
you might have been harder on national MP's just to
show that you were you were you know equal.
Speaker 3 (09:36):
Look, I remember that early in the piece there were
there were only a couple of the current ministry who
had been in that role before. So ministers themselves were
finding out what the bounds of of of their contribution
could be. And it's simply pulling them up on those
(09:56):
things is quite appropriate.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Let's just finish off on parliamentary standards, because they've been
in the news this year with Karen Chure saying she
felt unsafe and under attack and David seymore unhappy about them,
wouldn't take off the blooming lapel badge, and then we've
got the you know, we've talked about the hiker ahead
of the during the treaty Principals debate during in parliament.
From a speaker's perspective, is more difficult to control today
(10:19):
than it might have been in the past.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
I think it's that the people who contribute to the
part to the parliament make the differences to how the
parliament feels. Every parliament has a slightly different feel to it.
In my experience, this one is there's a kind of
a It's different because you've got a very strong Maori
Party that are in contest with the Labor Party on
(10:44):
a lot of things, a Green Party that is both
you know, what's environmentally as well as socially inclined and
has quite a commitment to the tekung of Mardi. So
that that leads you with a set of arrangements in
(11:08):
Parliament that don't recognize some of those things. So that
creates a difficulty at times, but it's up to the
Parliament itself to work it through when it comes through
things like current Shore, I think anybody who looked at
some of the exceptionally aggressive questioning that was directed her
way quite reasonable questioning and so much as it's permissible,
(11:29):
but unreasonable in some of what it was infering, I think, yes,
she has a had a hard time. She's, in my opinion,
a courageous minister who's doing a job. Not every minister
will gain the factory, few ministers will gain the approval
of opposition parties. All I've got to do is make
sure that there is the interaction inside the House appropriate
(11:53):
and that outside the house members don't feel like they
are personally or physically threatened. And that's quite a challenge
moving forward. That's something that in my experience is quite
new and we're doing quite got to work on that
at the moment. It's seeing that you know that in
the age the keyboard warrior, there's a whole lot of
(12:14):
potential threats that you might have dissipated in the past,
because come on, someone couldn't be bothered by writing a letter,
but you know, thirty seconds on a keyboard and there,
It is right out in front of you. So you
have to take all that very seriously.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
How concerned are you for the security of MPs.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
I think ever since we thought were just going sure
James James, James James saw who I do consider at
fact in the street. I think there's been a heightened
awareness of the potential dangers for MPs. And there are
(12:51):
some at the moment who are taking pretty strong public positions,
and that does, you know, heighten the level of reaction
from across the the I suppose you say that the
population where there are people who are prepared to go
out and make threats. It's all very well sort of
being unhappy with a policy and expressing it to those
(13:15):
who want to listen, but to actually take that step
further and say if you do this, then I'm going
to do this. That that is something slightly on the increase,
and we do have to monitor that. And we're not
only monitor We're going to have to do something about that.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
You know, where the bells going to get them all
into the house?
Speaker 3 (13:33):
Yep?
Speaker 2 (13:33):
As speaker, do you press the button to make that
happen or you've got someone to do it for you.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
No, I don't do that. I think it's all in
some automated system.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Oh that's too modern. What are you doing? What are
you doing for summer?
Speaker 3 (13:47):
Well, be home in christ for a good stretch, which
will be good. Sometimes it's good just to stop where
you are and draw breath, and then I think, no secret.
I have spend quite a bit of time over that
sonar period inside the Flora sounds, which would be good.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Run. Yet, Well, i'll tell you what. It's been a
long year without you, Jerry.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
Oh well, that's the way life is. You know. At
least you've resurrected me at the death.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
Maybe next Christmas we'd have another fireside chat.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
Okay, it would be very good.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
Thanks, very nice to hear.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Thank you for more from Caterbory Mornings with John McDonald.
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