John MacDonald: Less ministers and govt. departments? Yes please!

I love the way David Seymour is describing the size of cabinet and the number of government departments. 

He says the whole lot are "a big, complicated bureaucratic beast". And he is spot on. 

Here are the numbers that say it all: we have 82 portfolios, 28 ministers, and 41 separate government departments and agencies. If that doesn’t sound like a complicated beast, I don’t what does. 

So no argument from me. 

No argument also from Oliver Hartwich, who is Executive Director at the NZ Initiative think tank. He says part of the problem is that we have created all of these different outfits that, pretty much, look after similar things. 

Now Oliver Hartwich thinks we could get away with having as few as 15 cabinet ministers instead of the 28 we have at the moment. But he reckons maybe 20 is more realistic. 

Although, he also told Mike Hosking that he heard Ruth Richardson say recently that she thinks we should have no more than 12 cabinet ministers. 

Now, granted, I've never been a cabinet minister so I don’t have any inside expert knowledge, but I'm going to give it a go anyway. And I reckon we could go really hardcore and have a prime minister with two deputy prime ministers reporting to them. 

Those two deputies would have all the other ministers reporting to them. And I would streamline the total number of ministers, generally within the areas of law and order, finance, defence and security, health and social services, education, and the arts. 

That’s just a rough example of my streamlined cabinet. 

But Seymour's not just having a go at the number of cabinet ministers, he’s also got the number of government departments and agencies in his line of sight, and I know a thing or two about them. 

Because in previous lives I've worked at a few, and they are monsters. 

David Seymour is describing them as "bureaucratic beasts". I’d describe government departments and agencies as “beastly spaghetti junctions”. 

And that’s just what it’s like inside these departments, let alone what happens between them. Because, despite politicians talking about these departments being “all of government”, they’re not. 

That’s this theoretical idea that all government departments get on swimmingly, and talk to each other about everything, and they're all best mates, and because of that us taxpayers get the best bang for our buck. 

But it’s not like that at all. They work in silos. They compete with each other for funding. They don’t talk to each other. 

One great thing the government has done to try and sort out this shambles is in the area of weather forecasting. 

NIWA and MetService aren’t government departments exactly, but they are state-owned enterprises, and Simeon Brown announced a few weeks back that they’re going to be merged. 

Which makes perfect sense. And that’s what we need to see more of. 

Examples: do we need a Ministry of Education and an Education Review Office? I don’t think so. Do we need a Ministry of Justice and a Department of Corrections? Possibly not. Do we need a Department of Conservation and a Ministry for the Environment? 

See what I mean? 

So I'm right with David Seymour, and I think we would all be winners with less cabinet ministers and less government departments and agencies. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Canterbury Mornings podcast with John McDonald
from Newstalk ZB.

Speaker 2 (00:13):
I love the way David Seymour is describing the size
of cabinet and the number of government departments. Love it.
He says the whole lot are quote a big, complicated
bureaucratic beast, and he is spot on. Here are the
numbers that say it all. We have eighty two portfolios,
twenty eight ministers and forty one separate government departments and agencies.

(00:38):
That doesn't sound like a complicated beast. I don't know
what does. So no argument from me. No argument either
from Oliver Hartwich, who was executive director of the New
Zealand Initiative think tank. He says, part of the problem
is that we have created all of these different outfits
that pretty much look after similar things. Have listened to

(00:58):
this example he gave Mike earlier.

Speaker 3 (01:03):
In New Zealand. Of course we spread all sorts of
things for the sake of actually creating some portfolios, keeping
some politicians happy, making sure the coalition partner is happy.
But the result of that is something that doesn't make sense.
For example, we have a Minister of Housing, but we
also have a Minister of Building and Construction. These are
two different people, as if these two issues wouldn't have

(01:25):
anything to do with each other. Or if you're serving
in the Armed forces, your ministers Suris Collins as a
defense minister. Once you retire from the Armed Forces, your
minister is Chris pank because that's veterans Affairs. And so
we split all these different things into micro portfolios to
the point it doesn't make any.

Speaker 2 (01:41):
Sense, makes no sense. All well, I don't think so.
Oliver Heart which he thinks we could get away with
having as few as fifteen cabinet ministers instead of the
twenty eight we have at the moment, but he reckons
maybe twenty is more realistic, although he also told Mike
that he heard Ruth Richardson say recently she thinks we
should have no more than twelve cabinet ministers. Now, granted,

(02:06):
I've never been a cabinet mister, so I don't have
any inside expert knowledge. But tell you what, I'm going
to give it a go anyway, and I reckon, I
reckon we could go really hardcore and have a prime
minister with two deputy prime ministers reporting to the PM,
and those two deputies would have all the other ministers

(02:27):
reporting to them, and I would streamline the total number
of ministers, generally within the areas of law and order, finance,
defense and security, health and social services, education in the arts.
So that's just a rough example of my streamlined cabinet.
Certainly wouldn't be of the same or to the extent
that it is now with those numbers. But Seymour, he's

(02:50):
not just having to go at the number of cabinet ministers.
He's also got the number of government departments and agencies
in his line of sight. And I do know a
thing or two about them, because in previous lives I've
worked at a few, and they are monsters. David Seymour,
he's describing them as quote bureaucratic beasts. But I would
describe government departments and agencies, how would I describe them?

(03:12):
Here you go beastly spaghetti junctions. And that's just what
it's like inside these departments, let alone what happens between them.
Because despite politicians talking about these departments being quote all
of government, they're not. This is the theoretical idea that
all government departments get on swimmingly and they all talk

(03:33):
to each other about everything. And they're all best mates.
Because of that, US taxpayers get the best bang for
our buck. It's not like that, not like that at all.
They work in silos, they compete with each other for funding.
They don't talk to each other. I mean, one great
thing the government has done to try and sort out

(03:53):
the shambles is in the area of weather forecasting, Kneewer
and met Service. They aren't government departments exactly, but they
are state owned enterprises. And Simmy and Brown he has
announced to announced a few weeks back, but they're going
to be merged, which makes perfect sense. And that is
what we need to see more of, much more of examples.

(04:16):
Do we need a Ministry of Education and an Education
Review Office? I don't think so. Do we need a
Ministry of Justice and a Department of Corrections? Possibly not.
Do we need a Department of Conservation and a Ministry
for the environment? See what I mean? I could go on.
So I'm right with David Seymour and I reckon we

(04:39):
would all be winners with less cabinet ministers and less
government departments and agencies.

Speaker 1 (04:46):
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