John MacDonald: Finger-wagging won't get more kids going to school

I can’t find an exact figure but from what I have seen online, I’m pretty confident in saying that there are hundreds of millions of dollars in unpaid fines in New Zealand, and that figure is about to rise even further.  

Because the Government is dreaming if it thinks people fined for not sending their kids to school are going to suddenly start sending their kids to school, and that they're even going to bother paying the fines.  

They won’t. They’ll just ignore them. They won’t pay up.  

Because if they don’t feel bad about not sending their kids to school, they won’t feel bad about getting a fine. And they won’t feel bad about not paying it either.  

A fortnight ago, Associate Education Minister David Seymour announced that the Government is going to spend $140 million over the next four years with one aim: getting more kids to turn up at school regularly.  

And I said at the time that we’ll wait and see, but it seemed that he had stopped banging the drum about fining parents whose kids don’t go to school. And I said, we’ll see, because leopard and their spots, and all that.  

And it turns out I was right to be doubtful, because the leopard hasn’t changed its spots and today, he’s telling these parents that the Government is out to get them.  

But it won't make one bit of difference.  

And I've said before that I think starting school later is an idea worth considering because I want us to get creative when it comes to truancy. There’s no evidence to show that fining parents works. In fact, there’s evidence to show that it doesn’t work.  

In the United States, for example, Texas, Pennsylvania, and California went through periods where parents could be heavily fined if their kids were repeatedly absent. 

Parents were fined $500 for every absence. Some states even used ankle bracelets for kids who were repeat truants. It didn't work because it created mistrust in the system and in authorities and the truancy rates got even worse.  

So what might work, if fining parents isn’t going to work?  

Well this is where Sweden comes into the conversation.  

I’m not a fan of any sort of financial penalty because, as far as I’m concerned, anything that takes money away from families isn’t good because that affects the kids themselves. 

But if you want a financial penalty approach, in Sweden if a parent is on a benefit of any sort, their payments get cut if they don’t send their kids to school.  

Apparently it’s had a positive impact. And I think the reason it works way better than fining parents is that it takes money away without these parents having any choice.  

Whereas if they get a fine, it’s still their choice whether they pay it or not.  

Plus, here in New Zealand, I think there’s a culture where some people just don’t give a damn about fines – that’s why so many just don't get paid.  

Which is why I think that the Government’s plan to fine parents who don’t send their kids to school won't make one bit of difference.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Canterbury Morning's podcast with John McDonald
from News Talks AB.

Speaker 2 (00:13):
I can't find an exact figure, but from what I've
been able to find online, do you know, I'm pretty
confident in saying that there are hundreds of millions of
dollars in unpaid fines in New Zealand and that figure
is about to rise even further. Why is that Because

(00:33):
the government's dreaming if it thinks a people find for
not sending their kids to school are going to suddenly
start sending the kids to school and b the government's
dreaming if it thinks these people are even going to
bother paying the fines, they won't. They'll just ignore them.
They won't pay up because if they don't feel bad

(00:54):
about not sending their kids to school, they're not going
to feel bad about getting a fine, are they. They
certainly won't feel bad about not paying the fine or
finds either. So, like I say, all will achieve is
the big secret spreadsheet in Wellington with the amount of
unpaid fines just having more numbers added to it. That's all.

(01:14):
It's going to happen like the old telephone sign, except
in this case it's money. Owed not received by the way,
I say that it's a secret spreadsheet because from what
I have been able to find or not find, it
was six hundred million dollars the last time any numbers
were released. This is in relation to unpaid fines. But

(01:35):
that was back in twenty twelve, so there's hundreds of
millions of odors. Is going to get even worse. So
think back to a fortnight ago Associate Education Minister David Seymour.
He announced that the government's going to spend one hundred
and forty million over the next four years, with one
aim getting more kids turn up at school regularly. And

(01:55):
I said, at the time, I said, sounding good, but
we'll wait and see, because at the time it seemed
that he'd stopped banging the dry I'm about finding parents
whose kids don't go to school, And I said, we
will see because leopard and their spots and all of that. Well,
turns out I was right to be doubtful because the
leopard hasn't changed its spots and today he's telling his

(02:18):
parents that the government is out to get them. Now,
one thing I will give David Seymour is that he
was saying this morning that schools and the police have
been saying to him that they need another tool, that
we need some sort of stick, and Seymour says, we've listened,
We're delivering, delivering, but dreaming as well, thinking that this

(02:41):
will all make one bit of difference. And the last
time we talked about this, I said I thought that
starting school later was an idea worth considering, and didn't
get a lot of support, although some very intelligent people
did agree with me. And the reason I wanted to
get creative when it comes to truancy is that there
are plenty of examples around the world of what works
and what doesn't, which is why I've been touting the

(03:02):
laterst starting times argument, because there's evidence showed that that
has worked, just like there's no evidence to show that
finding parents works. In fact, there's evidence to show that
it doesn't work. In the United States, for example, Texas, Pennsylvania,
and California, they went through periods where parents could be
heavily find if their kids were repeatedly absent, five hundred

(03:24):
dollars for every absence. Some states even used ankle bracelets
for kids who were repeat to truants. It didn't work,
didn't work. David Seymour because it created mistrust and the
truancy rates got even worse. So what might work then
if fining parents isn't going to work, Well, this is
where Sweden comes into the conversation. Now I'm not a

(03:48):
fan of any sort of financial penalty because as far
as I'm concerned, anything that takes money away from families
isn't good because that affects the kids themselves, doesn't it.
But if you're going to insist on a financial penalty approach,
and you want to know about one that's worked. The
approach they taken Sweden, where if a parent is on

(04:09):
a benefit of any sort, their payments get cut if
they don't send the kids to school, And apparently it's
had a positive impact. And I think the reason it's
probably worked is that finding parents gives people a choice
as to whether they're going to pay or not. You
can't the benefit though the money's gone, they've got no choice.

(04:30):
But here in New Zealand, I reckon that there's a
culture where some people, probably more than some, quite a
few people just don't give a damn about fines. That's
why so many of them just don't get paid, which
is why I think the government's planned to find parents
who don't see the kids to school. It won't make
one bit of difference. And it's why I said right
at the start that all it's going to do is

(04:50):
increase the amount of unpaid fines. That's all it's going
to do.

Speaker 1 (04:54):
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