John MacDonald: How important is it that Tom Phillips' enablers are found?

I’ve really surprised myself. Because, even though I think it’s totally shameful that people have been helping Tom Phillips keep his kids in hiding for nearly four years, I’m torn when it comes to how important it is that these people face consequences for their actions. 

To the point where I’ve realised that it’s not as important to me as I thought it would be to me. 

Locals in the area are already poo-pooing the chances of the police tracking them down. Especially if they’re going to rely on people dobbing them in or people giving themselves in. 

Local farmer and former Waitomo mayor Mark Ammon is one of them. He says it’s unlikely. 

He says: "If it was me, I'd be just keeping quiet and hoping whatever leads the police get, didn't lead to me.” 

He reckons the vast majority of locals back the police, but he doesn’t think anyone will pipe-up because everyone knows everyone and, even though they support the police, they won’t want to narc. 

He does say though that it may also depend on the three children’s willingness to share information. 

Which brings me to psychologist Kirsty Ross, who is saying some really interesting things which I think are relevant to the likelihood of them spilling all the beans. In the short-to-medium term, anyway. 

She’s saying today that they will have been told a story that justified their father’s decisions and actions, saying “they’ve been in an echo chamber for four years”.  

“They will have been a really tight unit. This was such an impressionable age when they were taken and four years is such a long period of time to have one person as their sole protector, provider, teacher. That influence cannot be underestimated.”  

It can’t be underestimated. And what I would add to that is, can it be undone? Can that influence over four years be eroded to the point where the kids are happy to give away details of who has been helping their father? And who’s to say they even know?  

Which is why the likes of Children’s Commissioner Dr Claire Achmad are saying today that these kids are going to have to be treated with the proverbial kid gloves. Which is not going to involve much drilling for information, is it? 

But back to how I’m feeling about the police setting out to find the people who have supported their father while they've been in hiding. And why I’m torn about it, even though I think these people are despicable for what they’ve done.  

Here are the reasons in my head as to why the police should go after them. If they provided the firearm used to shoot the officer the other morning, then they have blood on their hands. And by enabling Phillips to keep his kids hidden for so long, this person or these people have been complicit in denying the kids of all the things kids shouldn’t be denied – time with both their parents, an education, freedom. I could go on.  

But here are the things I’m thinking about that make me wonder whether it’s worth the police even trying.  

First and foremost, the kids are back safe. That’s been the number one priority, and it’s been achieved.  

Secondly, from what we’re hearing, the locals are very unlikely to narc on their neighbours and the people who have been involved are very unlikely to come forward.   

And, finally, I think because of what that psychologist is saying about them being in an echo chamber for nearly four years, it’s unlikely that the kids will spill too many beans.  

It’s for those reasons, that finding these supporters is not as important to me as I thought it would be. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Canterbury Morning's Podcast with John McDonald
from News Talks AB.

Speaker 2 (00:13):
I have really surprised myself this morning. Maybe I'm going
to surprise you as well, but I can at least
say that I have surprised myself because even though I
think it's totally shameful that people have been helping Tom
Phillips keep his kids in hiding for nearly four years,

(00:34):
despite that, I am still torn as to whether the
police should bother trying to find out who these people are,
track them down and make them face the consequences, punish them.

Speaker 1 (00:52):
What it is.

Speaker 2 (00:53):
I'm actually torn when it comes to how important it
is that these people face consequences for their actions, to
the point that I have realized and this is where
I've surprised myself, to the point where I have realized
that it's not as important to me as I thought
it was, or it's not as important to me as
I thought it was going to be. I'll tell you

(01:15):
why in the second. I'm also keen to find out
how important it is to you. But let's start with
Police Commissioner Richard Chambers, who was saying today that that
is exactly what they plan to do were they're going
to try anyway as a sidemar, it's interesting that he's
saying that it is his personal view, not the police's view,

(01:37):
that Phillips had help over the last few years to
stay hidden. But look, I don't think anyone would argue
with the commissioner, whether it's official or unofficial. Others have
been involved in all this, of course they have. The
thing is locals in the area already pooperring. The chances
of the police tracking these people down, especially if they're
going to rely on people daubing them in or people

(02:01):
giving themselves in, giving themselves up. Local farmer and for
why Tormal mayor Mark Ammon is one of them, and
he says it's very unlikely. He says, if it was me,
I'll just be heaping quiet and hoping whatever leads the
police get didn't lead to me. And he reckons and

(02:23):
this is the tension he reckons at. Most locals they
in the area back the police, but he doesn't think
anyone will pipe up because everyone knows everyone. You can
imagine today that even though they support the police, they
won't want to be knacs. This guy does say though,
that it may also depend on the three kids themselves
and how willing they are to tell the cops, which

(02:44):
is where I'm going to bring in psychologist Kirsty Ross,
who was saying some really interesting things today about the kids,
which I think is relevant to the likelihood of them
spilling all the beans and the short to medium term. Anyway,
she's saying today that they would have been told a
story by their father that defies his decisions and actions.

(03:10):
She says, quote, they've been in an echo chamber for
four years. Just think about that. They've been in an
echo chamber for four years. She's saying today, they would
have been a really slight unit. This was such an
impressionable age when they were taken in four years of
such a long period of time to have one person
as their sole protector, provider, and teacher. And she says

(03:32):
that influence this is a quote that influence cannot be underestimated.
End of quote. It can't be underestimated. And what it
would add to that is can it be undone? Can
that influence over four years or nearly four years, can
that be eroded to the point where the kids are
happy to give away details of who's been helping their
father and who is to say they even know, which

(03:59):
is why the likes of the Children's Commissioner, doctor Clair
Akhmad are saying today that these kids are going to
have to be treated with the proverbial kid gloves. And
that's putting it mildly, isn't it. And when you treat
them with kid gloves, that's not going to involve drilling
them for information, which brings me back to how I'm
feeling about the police setting out to find the people
who have supported are these kids father while they've been

(04:23):
and hiding and why I'm torn about it. Even though
I think these people are despicable for what they've done,
here are the reasons. Here are the reasons in my
head as to why the police should go after them.
One if they provided the firearm used to shoot that
officer the other morning, who've got blood on their hands?
And two by enabling Phillips to keep his kids hidden
for so long. I mean, this person, or these people,

(04:45):
however many there are, they have been complicit in denying
the kids of all the things kids shouldn't be denied,
time with both their parents and education, freedom. I mean,
I could go on, but and here are the things
I'm thinking about that make me wonder whether it's worth
the cops even trying. First and foremost, the kids are

(05:07):
back and the safe. If I have heard from the police, Minister,
police Commission, the people in the street, everybody. Number one priority,
get the kids back safe. That's been achieved. Number Two,
from what we're hearing today, the locals are very unlikely
to knark on their neighbors and the people have been
involved are very unlikely to come forward. And three, I
think the kids, because of what that psychologist are saying

(05:29):
about them being in an echo chamber for nearly four years,
I think the chance of them spilling the beans is
very low, as well as them probably having no idea
at all about the true identity of the people who
have been helping their father. So where I've landed is
that for me, I think it's going to be a
futile exercise and because of that, finding these supporters is

(05:52):
not as important to me as I thought it was
going to be.

Speaker 1 (05:56):
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