June 14, 2024 • 7 mins
Over half of New Zealand workers are experiencing severe burnout – worse than Covid numbers.
In April, Massey Business School Survey found that the highest levels of burnout are among clerical workers, education professionals, office managers and health professionals.
Umbrella Wellbeing Clinical Psychologist Dougal Sutherland told Jack Tame “You can get into a situation where co-workers try out-do each other, which could affect employee relations.”
Sutherland’s advice for employees is “Focus on the aspects of situation that you can control – like preparing your CV.”
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
You're listening to the Saturday Morning with Jack Team podcast
from News Talks a B. And job in.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Security is facing a lot of people at the moment.
I think unemployment New Zealads at about four point three percent.
They're expecting to get about five point three percent. So
it's going to be a really tricky twelve months or so.
And we wanted to talk to Google Sutherland, a psychologist
from Umbrella Well Being, about the different ways in which
it impacts upon both employees and employers. And this doogle,
(00:35):
sadly is very very topical.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
Gurda, Yes it is. It's you know, I was thinking
that a year, two years ago, we're in this great
job market for you know, lots of jobs and plenty
of opportunity, and now that's almost done a complete one
AC and there's lots of people that are worried about
their job, worried about what happened, what might happen for
them or for their colleagues. So it's, yeah, it's a
(01:02):
completely different ballgame at the monment.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
And you reckon that job and security can be can
be kind kind of relatively easily divided into two big kinds, right.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
Yeah, if we ever sort of put too much faith
in dividing things into into sort of broad areas. But yeah,
one is about losing your job, you know, completely becoming
mate redundant, and the other is about losing bits of
the job that you really like. And that might be
you know, you might be facing some cutback in hours,
(01:33):
or it could be that you're changing and working conditions,
like you know, everybody has to work from the office now,
not at home. Yeah, it might even be that you know,
you're worried about losing good friends and colleagues that you
work with. And so I think both of those can
can you know, manifest in two ways. One you can
(01:53):
sort of spend a lot of time worrying about that,
and we often call that we often think of that
as that time that you spent at work when you
were really should be on your working at your job,
but your mind is distracted and elsewhere we call that presentism.
And then the other thing is, of course emotions. There's
(02:15):
lots of emotions that go on with that. And we
notice a lot of people overlook the role of or
the fact that they might feel a lot of grief
around losing their job or losing aspects of their jobs.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, so people aren't necessarily aware that
that we feel in grass I mean, anger is kind
of understandable, right, and anxiety about about the future, But
grief is a significant one as well, and it can
have like a really significant impact on relationships among staff, right.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
Yeah, I think it can. It's you know, either you're
kind of all competing for the same jobs, like if
they say, well, we're going to reduce our staff and
from ten to sex, well you're all competing. Or survive
the guilts another one where you have have ranaged to
retain your position, but your friends and colleagues haven't, right,
(03:06):
And you can also get into the situation where people
want to, you know, if they're feeling insecure. The best
thing I can do is be the best sort of
worker I can be at work and really shine compared
to other people, which there is nothing wrong and necessarily inherently,
but it might put you off side with your coworkers.
It's seeing to be sort of sucking up and being
the teacher's pet and trying to do everything. Don't worry
(03:29):
about how I'll work for extra but for no money.
You don't have to pay me for that, which which
an employer might like, but other employees might You might
get on the wrong side.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
That no love that at all. So what can you
do about.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
Well, you know, ideally you would just reduce uncertainty as
much as possible, but we don't live in la la land.
It's there's lots of uncertainty at the moment that people
just can't control. I think for employees two key things
is one, focus on the aspects of the situation that
you can control, and that might be that might be small,
(04:07):
and it might even be things like preparing your CV
for you know, you may have been a job for
ten years or so it haven't actually had to refresh
your CV, but at least you can console that. And
when people have a sense of control, it can reduce
that feeling of worry that they have. And also the
(04:27):
other thing I would say to employees is as much
as possible, we notice when your attention has got shifted
to that the black hole of the problem. I'm going
to lose my job. I'm going to lose this and
move it to focusing on what could happen after that,
because you probably can't do much about that uncontrollable black hole.
But there are things you might be able to do
(04:49):
about the future, and it can just give you a
little more sense of hopefulness if you're focusing on the
future a bit more.
Speaker 4 (04:57):
What about employers, Well, employers again we realize that sometimes
you know, managers and ces, they might want to reduce uncertainty,
but it's not always possible because you're answering to higher powers.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
I think two things. One is trying to give people
as much certainty and informations as you can. Sometimes when
organizations are going through change, they tend to sort of
drop down on communications because, oh, well, there's nothing new
to tell people, and therefore what's the point. Actually the
(05:38):
information that you can convey in that situation is there's
still no news, that's still the same because I'm sure
you've had it too. That in that void of information,
that's where rumors and all sorts of speculation can start
to growly and that's not particularly helpful. So communicating even
when you haven't got anything much to communicate about, and
(05:58):
focus on trying to maintain relationships and trying to make
the workplace as comfortable and as supportive as you possibly care.
We saw a bit of those actually with organizations around
COVID I think that when they did things like they said, hey, look, well,
actually sorry not covid to so much christ to its earthquakes. Yeah,
quite a lot of leniency in workplaces saying hey, look,
(06:19):
we realize it's really difficult, you know, to get hold
of your insurance company, so take some time during the
day to do that if you need to. And that
sort of flexible approach can help. Just it's a bit
more human and recognizes that, actually, you've got humans that
are worried and need to do things in their life,
and we need to make some allowances for that. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Do you find that people like I'm just trying, I'm
trying to put myself in, you know, the shoes of
people who are facing uncertainty with their jobs at the moment.
Is it must be really easy to catastrophize, like I
think I would. I think I would really freak out
and be like, oh my gosh, you know where am
I going to you know, like pay for the mortgage
(07:00):
next week kind of thing, and like look at stuff
in a really kind of short time frame, and maybe
it can be hard to get perspective. Is that something.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
You you say, Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah, absolutely, And
I'd be in that boat as well. I would be
one of those people that's, oh my god, we'll be
living in a shoe box out the back box somewhere. Yeah,
if I lose my job, Yeah it is. I think
often sharing those thoughts and worries with somebody else who's
a little bit more removed, whether that's a senior colleague
(07:30):
or you might or just just a good friend who's
that slight but removed, can make a different take the Yeah,
it can help take this thing out of it, and
they can help be a little more realistic because they're
not quite as emotionally tied up in it as you are.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
Yeah, that's good advice. Hey, thank you, Dogle, I really
appreciate it. That is Dogle, Southerland. He is a psychologist
with Umbrella Wellbeing.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
For more from Saturday Morning with Jack Tame, listen live
to news talks 'd be from nine am Saturday, or
follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Saturday Morning with Jack Team podcast
from News Talks a B. And job in.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Security is facing a lot of people at the moment.
I think unemployment New Zealads at about four point three percent.
They're expecting to get about five point three percent. So
it's going to be a really tricky twelve months or so.
And we wanted to talk to Google Sutherland, a psychologist
from Umbrella Well Being, about the different ways in which
it impacts upon both employees and employers. And this doogle,
(00:35):
sadly is very very topical.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
Gurda, Yes it is. It's you know, I was thinking
that a year, two years ago, we're in this great
job market for you know, lots of jobs and plenty
of opportunity, and now that's almost done a complete one
AC and there's lots of people that are worried about
their job, worried about what happened, what might happen for
them or for their colleagues. So it's, yeah, it's a
(01:02):
completely different ballgame at the monment.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
And you reckon that job and security can be can
be kind kind of relatively easily divided into two big kinds, right.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
Yeah, if we ever sort of put too much faith
in dividing things into into sort of broad areas. But yeah,
one is about losing your job, you know, completely becoming
mate redundant, and the other is about losing bits of
the job that you really like. And that might be
you know, you might be facing some cutback in hours,
(01:33):
or it could be that you're changing and working conditions,
like you know, everybody has to work from the office now,
not at home. Yeah, it might even be that you know,
you're worried about losing good friends and colleagues that you
work with. And so I think both of those can
can you know, manifest in two ways. One you can
(01:53):
sort of spend a lot of time worrying about that,
and we often call that we often think of that
as that time that you spent at work when you
were really should be on your working at your job,
but your mind is distracted and elsewhere we call that presentism.
And then the other thing is, of course emotions. There's
(02:15):
lots of emotions that go on with that. And we
notice a lot of people overlook the role of or
the fact that they might feel a lot of grief
around losing their job or losing aspects of their jobs.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, so people aren't necessarily aware that
that we feel in grass I mean, anger is kind
of understandable, right, and anxiety about about the future, But
grief is a significant one as well, and it can
have like a really significant impact on relationships among staff, right.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
Yeah, I think it can. It's you know, either you're
kind of all competing for the same jobs, like if
they say, well, we're going to reduce our staff and
from ten to sex, well you're all competing. Or survive
the guilts another one where you have have ranaged to
retain your position, but your friends and colleagues haven't, right,
(03:06):
And you can also get into the situation where people
want to, you know, if they're feeling insecure. The best
thing I can do is be the best sort of
worker I can be at work and really shine compared
to other people, which there is nothing wrong and necessarily inherently,
but it might put you off side with your coworkers.
It's seeing to be sort of sucking up and being
the teacher's pet and trying to do everything. Don't worry
(03:29):
about how I'll work for extra but for no money.
You don't have to pay me for that, which which
an employer might like, but other employees might You might
get on the wrong side.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
That no love that at all. So what can you
do about.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
Well, you know, ideally you would just reduce uncertainty as
much as possible, but we don't live in la la land.
It's there's lots of uncertainty at the moment that people
just can't control. I think for employees two key things
is one, focus on the aspects of the situation that
you can control, and that might be that might be small,
(04:07):
and it might even be things like preparing your CV
for you know, you may have been a job for
ten years or so it haven't actually had to refresh
your CV, but at least you can console that. And
when people have a sense of control, it can reduce
that feeling of worry that they have. And also the
(04:27):
other thing I would say to employees is as much
as possible, we notice when your attention has got shifted
to that the black hole of the problem. I'm going
to lose my job. I'm going to lose this and
move it to focusing on what could happen after that,
because you probably can't do much about that uncontrollable black hole.
But there are things you might be able to do
(04:49):
about the future, and it can just give you a
little more sense of hopefulness if you're focusing on the
future a bit more.
Speaker 4 (04:57):
What about employers, Well, employers again we realize that sometimes
you know, managers and ces, they might want to reduce uncertainty,
but it's not always possible because you're answering to higher powers.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
I think two things. One is trying to give people
as much certainty and informations as you can. Sometimes when
organizations are going through change, they tend to sort of
drop down on communications because, oh, well, there's nothing new
to tell people, and therefore what's the point. Actually the
(05:38):
information that you can convey in that situation is there's
still no news, that's still the same because I'm sure
you've had it too. That in that void of information,
that's where rumors and all sorts of speculation can start
to growly and that's not particularly helpful. So communicating even
when you haven't got anything much to communicate about, and
(05:58):
focus on trying to maintain relationships and trying to make
the workplace as comfortable and as supportive as you possibly care.
We saw a bit of those actually with organizations around
COVID I think that when they did things like they said, hey, look, well,
actually sorry not covid to so much christ to its earthquakes. Yeah,
quite a lot of leniency in workplaces saying hey, look,
(06:19):
we realize it's really difficult, you know, to get hold
of your insurance company, so take some time during the
day to do that if you need to. And that
sort of flexible approach can help. Just it's a bit
more human and recognizes that, actually, you've got humans that
are worried and need to do things in their life,
and we need to make some allowances for that. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Do you find that people like I'm just trying, I'm
trying to put myself in, you know, the shoes of
people who are facing uncertainty with their jobs at the moment.
Is it must be really easy to catastrophize, like I
think I would. I think I would really freak out
and be like, oh my gosh, you know where am
I going to you know, like pay for the mortgage
(07:00):
next week kind of thing, and like look at stuff
in a really kind of short time frame, and maybe
it can be hard to get perspective. Is that something.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
You you say, Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah, absolutely, And
I'd be in that boat as well. I would be
one of those people that's, oh my god, we'll be
living in a shoe box out the back box somewhere. Yeah,
if I lose my job, Yeah it is. I think
often sharing those thoughts and worries with somebody else who's
a little bit more removed, whether that's a senior colleague
(07:30):
or you might or just just a good friend who's
that slight but removed, can make a different take the Yeah,
it can help take this thing out of it, and
they can help be a little more realistic because they're
not quite as emotionally tied up in it as you are.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
Yeah, that's good advice. Hey, thank you, Dogle, I really
appreciate it. That is Dogle, Southerland. He is a psychologist
with Umbrella Wellbeing.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
For more from Saturday Morning with Jack Tame, listen live
to news talks 'd be from nine am Saturday, or
follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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