September 25, 2024 • 9 mins
Chris Hipkins is doubling down on the idea of a shake-up to the tax system.
ANZ boss Antonia Watson says the "time has arrived" for a capital gains tax.
Both Christopher Luxon and Finance Minister Nicola Willis rejected the call, joking that the boss of a big Australian bank just wants to take more money off Kiwis.
The Labour leader told Ryan Bridge New Zealand's tax system's loaded against working people because we're not taxing other forms of income.
He says salary and wage earners end up paying a disproportionate share of tax.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Chris Hipkins is in Liverpool for the UK Labor Party conference.
It comes as the party back in New Zealand looks
at a wealth tax or a capital gains tax, or
potentially both, this while their British counts parts are being
absolutely hammered in the polls at the moment over a
series of what you could call gaffs and also spending scandals.
(00:21):
Chris is with us this morning, Chris, what have you
learned over there? He's stars down in the poles, he's
cutting winter energy payments. Things aren't looking good for him.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Oh and there's interesting challenges here that are similar to
New Zealand, and there's challenges that are different. I guess so,
I mean the similarities. Cost of living crisis is clearly
still a big issue here, as it is still a
big issue in New Zealand, issues around tackling climate change
and sustainability, and the kind of the bigger question of
how do you grow an economy that on a per
capita basis has been stagnant? You know, these are similar
(00:51):
issues and similar challenges that we face in New Zealand.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Did you bond over your mutual drop in the polls?
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Look at early days with them, so they have the
luxury of a five year term, so he doesn't have
to go back to the polls for another five years.
So I think at this point, you know, they're just
focused on doing the early things they need to do
in government.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
You have to go back to the polls in twenty
twenty six. Will you be the leader?
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Absolutely?
Speaker 1 (01:15):
You want to be.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
You want the job absolutely, And you know, coming away
here and looking at you know, some talking to people
about ideas about how we can actually move New Zealand forward,
it's actually left me even more energized. I think there
are some big challenges in New Zealand. They're going to
require some fresh thinking and some new ideas. I'm taking
the time to make sure we generate those new ideas
that are twenty twenty six election is not going to
(01:38):
be a rerun of the twenty twenty three election, and
you know, we've got to be focused on the future.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
Let's talk about a couple of his ideas and see
whether you're into them or not. Where you can quick
fire these. He wants long term sickness beneficiaries to start
looking for work. Good idea, bad idea.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Oh look, I don't want to get into discussing UK politics.
So if you want to ask me about things in
the New Zealand context and New Zealand policy.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
All right about in New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
In New Zealand, I don't want to provide a commentary.
I don't want to provide it.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
No fair enough in New Zealand. In New Zealand, would
you be on board with long term sickness beneficiaries having
to look for work?
Speaker 2 (02:12):
No? I think I've got a system in place at
the moment that sets out clear expectations around long terms.
There's beneficiaries and then I'm quite comfortable with that.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
They have a limit there. And again this is a
New Zealand question. Would we limit a child benefit allowance
to two kids max?
Speaker 2 (02:28):
No? And I wouldn't support that.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Would you reduce the window energy payment to help pay
the bills, the government's bills?
Speaker 2 (02:34):
No. I mean there's a different issue over here in
the sense that it was a universal entitlement over here,
whereas it's not a New Zealand.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Let's talk about the elephant in the room, the capital
gains tax, the wealth tax. A lot of news in
New Zealand about that. Antonia, the head of the A
and Z Bank has said that she thinks we need
some sort of capital gains tax. Can you just clarify
for people, would that cover the family home? If if
your family who's saved up your mortgage free, you've got
(03:03):
a rental property, would you ever be hit by either
of these?
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Well, I wouldn't be happy with taxing a family home
and gains on a family home. And the other questions
really are hypothetical because you know, we haven't committed to
a particular form of capital gains taxation. But I think
what we've got to acknowledge is at the moment, the
New Zealand tax system is loaded against working people. Working
people end up paying more tax because we're not kept
taxing other forms of income. And as our other comparable
(03:31):
countries do. There's capital gain stax here and the UK
is capital gain stacks in Australia and so many other
countries that there isn't in New Zealand. And what does
that mean. It means that salary and wager and is
the people who work hard every day for a living
end up paying a disproportionate share of the tax because
we're not taxing other forms of income.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
So this is not about solving the housing crisis for
you a capital gains tax. It's about fairness, it's both
of it.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
It's about both things. I think we have the.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
Tax Working Group. The Tax Working Group has said that
it wouldn't solve the housing crisis, it wouldn't help to
bring prices down.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Well, I think you've got to look at that. There's
a range of things that have led to people into
New Zealanders putting money into the property market instead of
other forms of productive investment. Taxation is only one of
the things that you've got to look at there. You've
got to look at a range of other things as well.
I doerly don't think taxing income from capital capital gains
on property, for example, would hurt the housing crisis. I
(04:27):
think it's likely to be helpful, but it's not going
to be a solution. There's no one thing that's going
to solve the housing crisis in New Zealand. It's going
to require a range of different things.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
In the UK, they've got a capital gains tax, they've
got an inheritance tax. Look at the state of their NHS.
Isn't your bigger problem convincing keyways that if you do
do a tax we will actually get some benefit from it.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
Oh, we've got to make sure that New Zealanders see
the benefit of any changes that we would make to
the tax system. They've got to see what's in it
for them.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Stats n Z put out the General Social Survey yesterday.
This is for twenty twenty three, So this is when
you guys were in office twenty twenty one to twenty
twenty three. Trust and the health system down, education down,
Parliament down, police down, courts down, people's sense of belonging down.
Do you take some responsibility for those numbers, of course,
(05:19):
but we've.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Got to recognize that those numbers were on record highs
just three years ago during the COVID nineteen pandemic. We
saw record levels of trust and confidence in government, and
now they're coming back down to more like the levels
that they were before the pandemic.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
So you're saying that this is actually a good thing
or a normal thing.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
No, not at all. I'd love to see those numbers
stay higher. I think we've actually got to work really
hard to make sure that our democratic institutions are ones
that inspire confidence and trust from the New Zealand public.
I think they are taking a bit of a knock
in recent years. I think we do need to take
that seriously as politicians. We need to make sure that
we're making the changes to the way our democratic system
(06:00):
operates so that we're increasing public trust and confidence.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Is anyone doing the numbers against you and the Labor.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Party to be No, absolutely not, absolutely not that I'm
absolutely confident that I have the full support of the
Labor team.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
Hey, the nuclear free moment, obviously it's been well for
five six years now since just Cindra Durn's proclamation. We've
now had in the last twenty four hours Todd Energy
come out and join the likes of method X and
OG and Windstone and they are making cuts at Todd Energy,
which is hugely concerning. Do you concede that what you
did with the offshore oil and Gas band has had
(06:38):
an impact on investment here and it is costing jobs,
good regional union jobs.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
No, absolutely not to totally reject that rhyme and the
facts actually say otherwise. I mean that's been from the
oil and gas industry for the reality here as we
haven't had a significant oil and gas bye in New
Zealand it's two thousands and what the Oil and Guests
Band has only been in place for the last years,
so if there was a ready supply of oil and
gas there, they would have found it by now.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
Well, we don't know that, do we. I mean, I
mean you don't know what you don't know, and the
fact is if you ban it, you'll never know.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Well, there's still a lot of offshore oil and gas
exploration permits that are active now. They could be out
there exploring now, even because we didn't cancel any of
the permits that were in place when the band was
put in place. They chose not to do that.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
So you're saying that when method X, when these companies
put out press releases and they've sent me statements partly
blaming your ban on offshore oil and gas exploration for
a dampening and investment, they're making it up.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
It's it's always easier to blame that. It's always easier
to blame the government when companies have to make some
difficult decisions. But the reality is New Zealand's future should
be focused on renewable energy. It's cheaper, it's going to
be better for New Zealand business because of New Zealand
businesses paying lower power prices. They're going to be more competitive.
Fossil fuels are more expensive than renewable fuels. The thing
(08:01):
that houses our electricity prices to go up is not
the cost of renewable and it it's the cost of
fossil fuels.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Just finally, you might have seen I mean, I'm sure
you've been keeping abreast of politics here, but Chris Luxon
has had a oh he's had a few I don't
want to say tanties, but he's had a few run
ins with the media. What do you make of his
performance this week?
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Oh? You know, I mean, I think Christopher Luxelm said
that he's setting all these targets so that the public
can hold him accountable for the government's performance. And now
that the targets are actually showing that the government's performance
is getting worse, he say, we'll forget about the targets.
Stop questioning me on them. I mean, he's contradicting himself.
I mean, if he wants to set targets and say
hold me accountable for the targets, he's got to be
prepared to be questioned on them.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
How long did you get in a meeting with Starma?
Speaker 2 (08:46):
It was a relatively brief meeting. We were meeting for
you know, it was a meeting between meetings for both
of us, so we've got to about ten minutes. I
suppose had a good sit down with Angela rain As,
the Deputy Prime Minister over here for about half an hour,
and I've meeting with plenty of other laboring peas as well.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
That was Chris Hopkins, the Labor leader over in Liverpool
for the UK Party conference. There. For more from News
Talk st B, listen live on air or online, and
keep our shows with you wherever you go with our
podcasts on iHeartRadio
Chris Hipkins is in Liverpool for the UK Labor Party conference.
It comes as the party back in New Zealand looks
at a wealth tax or a capital gains tax, or
potentially both, this while their British counts parts are being
absolutely hammered in the polls at the moment over a
series of what you could call gaffs and also spending scandals.
(00:21):
Chris is with us this morning, Chris, what have you
learned over there? He's stars down in the poles, he's
cutting winter energy payments. Things aren't looking good for him.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Oh and there's interesting challenges here that are similar to
New Zealand, and there's challenges that are different. I guess so,
I mean the similarities. Cost of living crisis is clearly
still a big issue here, as it is still a
big issue in New Zealand, issues around tackling climate change
and sustainability, and the kind of the bigger question of
how do you grow an economy that on a per
capita basis has been stagnant? You know, these are similar
(00:51):
issues and similar challenges that we face in New Zealand.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Did you bond over your mutual drop in the polls?
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Look at early days with them, so they have the
luxury of a five year term, so he doesn't have
to go back to the polls for another five years.
So I think at this point, you know, they're just
focused on doing the early things they need to do
in government.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
You have to go back to the polls in twenty
twenty six. Will you be the leader?
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Absolutely?
Speaker 1 (01:15):
You want to be.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
You want the job absolutely, And you know, coming away
here and looking at you know, some talking to people
about ideas about how we can actually move New Zealand forward,
it's actually left me even more energized. I think there
are some big challenges in New Zealand. They're going to
require some fresh thinking and some new ideas. I'm taking
the time to make sure we generate those new ideas
that are twenty twenty six election is not going to
(01:38):
be a rerun of the twenty twenty three election, and
you know, we've got to be focused on the future.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
Let's talk about a couple of his ideas and see
whether you're into them or not. Where you can quick
fire these. He wants long term sickness beneficiaries to start
looking for work. Good idea, bad idea.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Oh look, I don't want to get into discussing UK politics.
So if you want to ask me about things in
the New Zealand context and New Zealand policy.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
All right about in New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
In New Zealand, I don't want to provide a commentary.
I don't want to provide it.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
No fair enough in New Zealand. In New Zealand, would
you be on board with long term sickness beneficiaries having
to look for work?
Speaker 2 (02:12):
No? I think I've got a system in place at
the moment that sets out clear expectations around long terms.
There's beneficiaries and then I'm quite comfortable with that.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
They have a limit there. And again this is a
New Zealand question. Would we limit a child benefit allowance
to two kids max?
Speaker 2 (02:28):
No? And I wouldn't support that.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Would you reduce the window energy payment to help pay
the bills, the government's bills?
Speaker 2 (02:34):
No. I mean there's a different issue over here in
the sense that it was a universal entitlement over here,
whereas it's not a New Zealand.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Let's talk about the elephant in the room, the capital
gains tax, the wealth tax. A lot of news in
New Zealand about that. Antonia, the head of the A
and Z Bank has said that she thinks we need
some sort of capital gains tax. Can you just clarify
for people, would that cover the family home? If if
your family who's saved up your mortgage free, you've got
(03:03):
a rental property, would you ever be hit by either
of these?
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Well, I wouldn't be happy with taxing a family home
and gains on a family home. And the other questions
really are hypothetical because you know, we haven't committed to
a particular form of capital gains taxation. But I think
what we've got to acknowledge is at the moment, the
New Zealand tax system is loaded against working people. Working
people end up paying more tax because we're not kept
taxing other forms of income. And as our other comparable
(03:31):
countries do. There's capital gain stax here and the UK
is capital gain stacks in Australia and so many other
countries that there isn't in New Zealand. And what does
that mean. It means that salary and wager and is
the people who work hard every day for a living
end up paying a disproportionate share of the tax because
we're not taxing other forms of income.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
So this is not about solving the housing crisis for
you a capital gains tax. It's about fairness, it's both
of it.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
It's about both things. I think we have the.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
Tax Working Group. The Tax Working Group has said that
it wouldn't solve the housing crisis, it wouldn't help to
bring prices down.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Well, I think you've got to look at that. There's
a range of things that have led to people into
New Zealanders putting money into the property market instead of
other forms of productive investment. Taxation is only one of
the things that you've got to look at there. You've
got to look at a range of other things as well.
I doerly don't think taxing income from capital capital gains
on property, for example, would hurt the housing crisis. I
(04:27):
think it's likely to be helpful, but it's not going
to be a solution. There's no one thing that's going
to solve the housing crisis in New Zealand. It's going
to require a range of different things.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
In the UK, they've got a capital gains tax, they've
got an inheritance tax. Look at the state of their NHS.
Isn't your bigger problem convincing keyways that if you do
do a tax we will actually get some benefit from it.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
Oh, we've got to make sure that New Zealanders see
the benefit of any changes that we would make to
the tax system. They've got to see what's in it
for them.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Stats n Z put out the General Social Survey yesterday.
This is for twenty twenty three, So this is when
you guys were in office twenty twenty one to twenty
twenty three. Trust and the health system down, education down,
Parliament down, police down, courts down, people's sense of belonging down.
Do you take some responsibility for those numbers, of course,
(05:19):
but we've.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Got to recognize that those numbers were on record highs
just three years ago during the COVID nineteen pandemic. We
saw record levels of trust and confidence in government, and
now they're coming back down to more like the levels
that they were before the pandemic.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
So you're saying that this is actually a good thing
or a normal thing.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
No, not at all. I'd love to see those numbers
stay higher. I think we've actually got to work really
hard to make sure that our democratic institutions are ones
that inspire confidence and trust from the New Zealand public.
I think they are taking a bit of a knock
in recent years. I think we do need to take
that seriously as politicians. We need to make sure that
we're making the changes to the way our democratic system
(06:00):
operates so that we're increasing public trust and confidence.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Is anyone doing the numbers against you and the Labor.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Party to be No, absolutely not, absolutely not that I'm
absolutely confident that I have the full support of the
Labor team.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
Hey, the nuclear free moment, obviously it's been well for
five six years now since just Cindra Durn's proclamation. We've
now had in the last twenty four hours Todd Energy
come out and join the likes of method X and
OG and Windstone and they are making cuts at Todd Energy,
which is hugely concerning. Do you concede that what you
did with the offshore oil and Gas band has had
(06:38):
an impact on investment here and it is costing jobs,
good regional union jobs.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
No, absolutely not to totally reject that rhyme and the
facts actually say otherwise. I mean that's been from the
oil and gas industry for the reality here as we
haven't had a significant oil and gas bye in New
Zealand it's two thousands and what the Oil and Guests
Band has only been in place for the last years,
so if there was a ready supply of oil and
gas there, they would have found it by now.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
Well, we don't know that, do we. I mean, I
mean you don't know what you don't know, and the
fact is if you ban it, you'll never know.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Well, there's still a lot of offshore oil and gas
exploration permits that are active now. They could be out
there exploring now, even because we didn't cancel any of
the permits that were in place when the band was
put in place. They chose not to do that.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
So you're saying that when method X, when these companies
put out press releases and they've sent me statements partly
blaming your ban on offshore oil and gas exploration for
a dampening and investment, they're making it up.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
It's it's always easier to blame that. It's always easier
to blame the government when companies have to make some
difficult decisions. But the reality is New Zealand's future should
be focused on renewable energy. It's cheaper, it's going to
be better for New Zealand business because of New Zealand
businesses paying lower power prices. They're going to be more competitive.
Fossil fuels are more expensive than renewable fuels. The thing
(08:01):
that houses our electricity prices to go up is not
the cost of renewable and it it's the cost of
fossil fuels.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Just finally, you might have seen I mean, I'm sure
you've been keeping abreast of politics here, but Chris Luxon
has had a oh he's had a few I don't
want to say tanties, but he's had a few run
ins with the media. What do you make of his
performance this week?
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Oh? You know, I mean, I think Christopher Luxelm said
that he's setting all these targets so that the public
can hold him accountable for the government's performance. And now
that the targets are actually showing that the government's performance
is getting worse, he say, we'll forget about the targets.
Stop questioning me on them. I mean, he's contradicting himself.
I mean, if he wants to set targets and say
hold me accountable for the targets, he's got to be
prepared to be questioned on them.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
How long did you get in a meeting with Starma?
Speaker 2 (08:46):
It was a relatively brief meeting. We were meeting for
you know, it was a meeting between meetings for both
of us, so we've got to about ten minutes. I
suppose had a good sit down with Angela rain As,
the Deputy Prime Minister over here for about half an hour,
and I've meeting with plenty of other laboring peas as well.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
That was Chris Hopkins, the Labor leader over in Liverpool
for the UK Party conference. There. For more from News
Talk st B, listen live on air or online, and
keep our shows with you wherever you go with our
podcasts on iHeartRadio
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