Helmut Modlik: Ngati Toa CEO talks his upcoming Treaty of Waitangi debate with David Seymour

The chief executive of Ngati Toa agrees a robust debate is needed on the Treaty of Waitangi. 

Helmut Modlik will debate ACT leader David Seymour tonight, two months after Modlik called him out. 

A draft of Seymour's Treaty Principles Bill will be ready for public release and discussion next month, but National says it will support the bill no further than the first reading only. 

Modlik told Ryan Bridge the country needs a national conversation about the treaty, which is why he agreed to debate Seymour. 

He says the country was only getting curated sound bite versions of one position. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Big debate coming tonight on the Treaty Principles Build. This
is David Seymour's topic, Djuur and he will be taking
on the Nazi Tower chief executive Helmet Modlick. They'll go
head to head in a public debate. It will take
place at eight pm this evening. It's been live streamed
on all sorts of different platforms and Helmet Modlick is
with us this morning.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Helmet. Some say we shouldn't be.

Speaker 1 (00:22):
Debating the treaty. That is a very strong line coming
from the lights of the party, Maori. Does this mean
you disagree we do need the debate.

Speaker 3 (00:29):
I agree entirely that we should have a debate, which
is why I've made myself available to participate in it.
What I was discomforted by was the lack of substantive
information and thought exchange. We were only getting curated SoundBite
versions of one position. And so yeah, I'm looking forward

(00:49):
to the debate, welcome it.

Speaker 1 (00:51):
What do you make of Taparty Maori's approach to this,
which has been to throw words like genocide and white
supremacist out there.

Speaker 2 (00:59):
What's your take on their stance?

Speaker 3 (01:03):
Well, I can't speak for the party, Maori of course.
But what I do know is that the historical record
of the harm that has occurred in the Maori community
as a consequence of breaches of they to await tonguey
are hard to overstate, and in fact that my memory
shoves me right. I believe the word genocide was originally
used by the white Tonguy tribunal connection with the harm

(01:24):
that resulted to the Taranaki people as a consequence of breaches.
So I understand the feeling, I understand the language, I
understand the passion, and there's no avoid at this point
in our history, though, I think the time for us
is here as for us to exchange ideas about to
go forward.

Speaker 1 (01:44):
Okay, this sounds promising. This sounds like you're going to
have a robust discussion. Do you you've seen that, You've
seen that the principles that the government has put forward,
David Siemas put forward.

Speaker 2 (01:57):
You know the government has the power to govern.

Speaker 1 (01:59):
Respecting the Ewi and hapoo and being equal before the law.

Speaker 2 (02:03):
Is there anything wrong with those?

Speaker 3 (02:07):
Yeah? Well, okay, you don't want me to give one
of the game plans for tonight, bud, but just really quickly,
the government has the right to govern, sees who and
how did they get their right? Well, that's a rather
fundamental question that will examine tonight. Secondly, the rights that
accrue to the hapoo of In fact, the bill says
that they are as outlined in the treaty, but constrained

(02:29):
by whatever the government of the day actually concedes that
they may be. So there's a lot of logical flaws,
even on the question of equality before the law. I'll
look forward to pointing out tonight how equality before the
law is a fiction today, yesterday, and probably tomorrow. So
there's a lot of logical faus which I look forward
to servicing. And yeah, well that's it.

Speaker 1 (02:51):
How the big one here then, you mentioned it to
start with that the governor has the right to govern?

Speaker 2 (02:56):
You say, says who, When did that happen?

Speaker 1 (02:59):
It's the fundamental question is whether Maori seated sovereignty, whether
the crown, whether the government is sovereign in New Zealand.

Speaker 2 (03:07):
They have the right to make laws. You don't think
they do.

Speaker 3 (03:11):
You have hit the nail on the head, Ryan, and
I look.

Speaker 1 (03:13):
Forward to where does that leave us?

Speaker 3 (03:17):
It leaves us right where we are, Ryan, right where
we are. So the real issue isn't about the technicalities.
The real issue has always is the substance of our
civil society. Do we actually believe in things like truth
and justice and freedoms and equality before the earth? We do? Then, call,

(03:37):
let's look with crystal clear eyes and what if that
got us to where we're at. We're in a great place.
This is an awesome place with an awesome group of
people and democracy call, So let's not ignore that, but
let's be truthful about what got us here and how
to go forward in the way that Kiwis actually wants.
That's it both, all right?

Speaker 2 (03:57):
Hey, hey, it sounds like it's going to be a
good debate. Look forward to watching it. Helmet, thanks so
much for your time. For more from News Talk sed B,
listen

Speaker 3 (04:04):
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