Helen Clarke: Former Prime Minister on the US reviewing AUKUS

Helen Clark says the future of the AUKUS security pact remains very uncertain. 

The Pentagon's reviewing the agreement between Australia, the UK, and the US to ensure it meets Donald Trump's America First agenda. 

It's still unclear what that might mean for New Zealand's potential involvement. 

But Clark —the former Prime Minister and UNDP Head— told Ryan Bridge there's a chance Trump could scrap the pact altogether. 

She says the leaders of all three countries have changed since the agreement was signed, and the US has become increasingly unpredictable. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
US says it's reviewing the orchest security pack between itself,
the UK and Australia, all because it wants to make
sure the pact aligns with Trump's quote America First Agenda.
What does that mean for US, Helen Clark. Of course
we are positioning on pillar two. Helen Clark, former Prime Minister,
is with us this morning. Good morning, Good morning, Ryan,
Good to have you with me. Do you think this
is actually he will Trump, that is, will review this

(00:22):
and change anything.

Speaker 2 (00:25):
Well he might, Ryan. You see, President Trump has ditched
a lot of what President Biden did and he will
be looking at the Orcas arrangement with Australia and the
United Kingdom as a Biden initiative. So that makes it
very vulnerable. Also to note that the Australian Prime Minister
and the British Prime Minister who formulated this deal are

(00:48):
both long gone as well, Scott Morrison Australia and Boris Johnson.
So it's a new scene all round, and the United
States at the moment is quite unpredictable. Take for example, Australia,
like New Zealand, UK and a couple of others have
put these sanctions on the extremist ministers in the Israeli government,

(01:12):
and the US has come out and criticize that. So
it may be sort of formulating a line which says, well,
we don't want to do business with you anymore Australia
in the UK on this because we don't like what
you've done on that. So it's very unpredictable.

Speaker 1 (01:28):
Does this mean that you might end up actually agreeing
with one of Trump's positions?

Speaker 2 (01:34):
Well, I've never thought that Aucus was a sensible thing
for New Zealand to have anything to do with, because
I have a view we need to keep a much
more carefully balanced foreign policy. We have not been quote
an ally of the United States in decades since the
breach over nuclear weapons, and I don't see the advantage

(01:54):
of trying to get that status back. We've made our
own luck in the world, and quite successfully. This pillar
two would just be really dragging you back into an
orbit that you don't want to be in.

Speaker 1 (02:05):
Should the President change, which will happen at some stage,
your view on whether we should be an ally of
America or not wouldn't change.

Speaker 2 (02:13):
No, not at all. Look, we need to be a
friend of America, even in its troubled state. At the moment,
it has been a great democracy. I hope it continues
to be a great democracy. We've got a lot in common,
we do good business for the Americans, we share a
lot of values. Or have the moment that's a bit

(02:33):
unprotectable as well. But I would not want to see
us back in the position when New Zealand is expected
to spend a whole lot more money on defense, expected
to follow the US into whatever its strategic adventures. And
I'm old enough to remember the Vietnam War in New
Zealand going into that for not good reason at all,
and limping out the other end with Kiwis who died

(02:55):
on the battlefield for no good reason. I don't want
to see us ever in that position.

Speaker 1 (03:00):
Hell In Clark form a Prime Minister, appreciate your time
this morning. It is sixteen after five year on news
talk said be speaking of spending more on defense. The
US is pushing for, particularly for Australia and for the
UK to up there defense spending, and both of them
are but they want you to get to three percent
of GDP. You know, we just got to two. I
said this the other day, and that NATO's asking for
five from its members. Thank god we're not a NATO.

(03:22):
I mean, imagine how much we would have to be spending.
But the UK's agreed to go to two point five
by twenty twenty eight, the US wants it to go
to three. Australia says it will lift to not to
the three and a half percent of the US wants.
So basically, the UK and Australia not doing what the
US wants on spending. How does that factor into orcus
You can imagine what Trump's going to do with this.

(03:45):
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