Dellwyn Stuart: Mind the Gap co-founder on the gender pay gap at the lowest it's ever been

Belief an improving gender pay gap is due to a weaker labour market.

Stats NZ's revealed the difference in pay between women and men fell to 5.2% in the June quarter - its lowest point to date

A year ago, it was 8.2%.

Mind the Gap co-founder Dellwyn Stuart told Ryan Bridge the number will likely go back up as the economy improves and more part-time jobs become available again for women.

She says they're still carrying majority of the parenting load and tend to opt for part-time roles more, which are often the ones cut first.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
The difference between the salaries of men and women is
the lowest it's ever been. Stats indeed says the gender
pay gap fell from eight percent last year to just
five point two percent this year. Delwin Stewart is Mine
The Gap co founder with me on the line this morning, Darlwin,
good morning, good morning. Why is this do you think, Well.

Speaker 2 (00:20):
On the surface, that's a historical drop. It's the biggest
drop we've ever seen since it started to be recorded.
But we need to be cautious as that may just
reflect job losses amongst low paid women rather than true gains.

Speaker 1 (00:36):
So because of the state of the economy, that's what's
causing the drop.

Speaker 2 (00:41):
Yeah, and a week labor market women, especially those in
lower paid jobs, can be dispropertionately hurt, so as they're
leaving the market, that distorts the number. We've seen that
happen historically at other times of recession or tough times
where unemployment has spiked and it gives an artificial improvement

(01:03):
in your number. But unless you look under the hood
and you understand what's really going on and all the factors,
then you can be mislead by a headline number.

Speaker 1 (01:12):
Do you think the number will go back up as
things improve.

Speaker 2 (01:18):
It's a danger that it will. Yes. Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (01:20):
Is this because women do more part time work?

Speaker 2 (01:23):
Yes, women do tend to opt because they're still carrying
the majority of the load of parenting, they tend to
opt for part time work more. And it's often those
roles that are cut. We saw that really strongly during COVID,
that are all of those part time roles. It's divanished.

Speaker 1 (01:42):
If the gap improves when things are tough, does it
not prove that it's not sexism that's actually causing it.
It's the type of work. You know, part timers don't
progress as much, don't get paid as much.

Speaker 2 (01:54):
Yeah. So there's been numerous studies that have looked at
this about what actually is affecting contributing to the pay gap,
and consistently they show that only about twenty percent of
the gap is about the type of work you do,
the education that you've had, the sector that you choose

(02:14):
part time full time. The rest of the eighty percent
is unattributable to those things, so we don't know. Well,
that's where we say that's the kind of things can
come into play, like sexism basically and racism, because this
gap is only giving you the average musient. It's not

(02:35):
telling you what the gap is for Marian Pacific women,
and traditionally it's significantly larger for Mariian Pacific women.

Speaker 1 (02:42):
Darwin, has anyone compared part time men to part time
women to see how big that gap is?

Speaker 2 (02:49):
I haven't. I'm not aware of of that.

Speaker 1 (02:52):
Wouldn't they give us a pretty good sense of whether
that is what exactly the problem is.

Speaker 2 (03:00):
I mean, we all like to think that there is
one problem and it will solve everything, the silver billet theory,
but actually there's not one solution here. There's some really
good changes that have been happening in the last five years.
The Mind the Gap campaign really changed. It was understanding
of the issue. The government will recently has created a

(03:20):
free pay gap tool that's freely availe that it helps
people to address this and understand it in their business.
There are good things happening. It's just the danger of
looking at one number and thinking there's one solution isn't
going to solve our problems.

Speaker 1 (03:36):
I would appreciate your time this morning. Thanks for being
with me. Dylan Stewart. Mind the Gat co founded for
more from earlier edition with Ryan Bridge listen live to
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