December 3, 2025 • 40 mins
Bobby Bones and Matt Cassel talk about their recent travels with Matt spending the weekend in California for UCLA/USC. Bobby shares some of his travel stories and tales of sitting in first class. What are the rules of interacting with celebs while traveling?
NY Times Author Ken Belson talks about his book 'Every Day is Sunday'. Ken discusses the impact of Roger Goodell on the NFL and his relationship with team owners. Matt asks about Jerry Jones and Robert Kraft being the biggest owners in the league. Bobby asks about the charm of Jerry Jones and his interactions with the media and fans. How did the NFL change from being football people to having business people buying teams and driving growth.
Ken looks at the ups and downs of the NFL and Roger Goodell's growth over the least decade. What are the next steps and plans for the league and the players? Look for Week 13 recap and a look ahead to Week 14 coming up in the second half coming up tomorrow!
Lots to Say with Bobby Bones and Matt Cassel is part of the NFL Podcast Network
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Lots to Say with Bobby Bones and Matt Castle is
a production of the NFL and iHeart podcasts.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
We Got Lots just say, we got lots to say?
Speaker 3 (00:20):
What is better here?
Speaker 4 (00:21):
And we hope you say because we got lost.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Just said, yeah, we got lots just say. Here's Bobby that.
Speaker 5 (00:33):
Hey, welcome to another episode of Lots to Say. Hey,
what a family picture of you guys at USC. How
cool is that is it?
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Because it was your.
Speaker 5 (00:41):
Alma water, your wife's alma water, and you were working,
so he took ahole family.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Yeah, well they went.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
We went out there for Thanksgiving break family where it
was out there. And then obviously my wife is alumnus
as well, and so we brought all the kids and
my extended family, my brothers, my sister, all my nieces
and nephews, they all came as well.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
So I brought the kids down.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
And the funny part was we were doing the pregame
show and normally what we do is we look for
a big alumni to come bang the drum. It's like
the last segment before we go and push it to
the actual game. And we couldn't find anybody out on
the field, like no heavy hitters, so then the field
producer Wilkie comes up and goes, cas, we're just gonna
(01:23):
We're gonna use your family.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
I was like, oh, was that idea? Yeah, So they
were on NBC.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
And the funniest part was my oldest son, who's only
twelve years old. He's sitting there and he's got a
stoic personality and they go to bang the drum and
You're like, all my other kids are smiling stuff, and
he's stone cold, and the He's just stone cold, no
facial expression. And Wilkie's like, I think your oldest son
was upset. I was like, no, that's just him, dude.
He's he's gonna be here all the time. But it
(01:49):
was it was awesome experience for the kids. And to
have them there on the sideline and and be back
at the my alma mater for the last game of
the year was a good way to wrap it up.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
It was a great picture. It was a lot of fun.
I know, I'm not comic guy, I'm not heart guy.
Speaker 5 (02:04):
I wish I liked pictures on Instagram, because in my heart,
I do like a lot of pictures. I wish I
just got credit for liking pictures instead of liking them
with my thumb. Can I just scroll and I'm like, oh,
that's good, that's good. But I actually was so compelled
to write great picture on that.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Did you write it? Yeah? Oh thank you. I didn't
even read it.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
Yeah, I don't read my comments. Okay, I'm not liking
there comments probably two none. Look, I just don't click
on the picture to read through the comments. It's a
great picture. Oh well, I appreciate that.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Yeah. It was fun. It was fun. It was good
to see the family.
Speaker 3 (02:40):
But it was a crazy week because on Thanksgiving I
had to fly back to the East Coast because I
was in studio. Friday, got on the plane from JFK
at six o'clock in the morning to fly back out
to the West Coast for the USC UCLA game. Then
I got on a flight Sunday morning at six point
thirty to fly back to Nashville. A lot of travel.
So you went California, New York, New York, California, and
(03:04):
then right back to Nashville.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
That's long. Yeah. Did they at least put you in
a lay down seat? Did you have those ideas?
Speaker 6 (03:09):
And I was so thankful for that because that's basically
a flight to Europe.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
It's a game changer. I mean it was a game changer.
You could actually lay down and like nap a little bit.
I don't sleep while on planes. Can you pass down
on planes if I take the right pills? Yeah, Well
I need some of those pills then because I didn't
have them.
Speaker 5 (03:24):
Well I don't take them anymore. I had some issues.
I think I've told you this before. I got like
jumped at work, got pistol whipped, another event, and had
my house broken into.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
So I was struggling a little bit with sleep, obviously,
and so I tried that would do it to you?
Oh those are three hardcore?
Speaker 5 (03:42):
Yeah, it was tough, and so I tried a lot
of different things because I don't like to take I
don't want to say medicine. I don't like to take
medication because I have fear of addiction because all my
family's been addicted and they're mostly all dead from it.
And so I wasn't sleeping at all after those instances,
like for months and months, and I was going to
my doctor who were trying all the natural remedies and
(04:03):
tai chi and anything that possibly would work, holistic, non holistic.
I was doing everything except taking sleeping pills. And so
I started taking sleeping pills because I was getting no
sleep and I was getting sick all the time because
I was getting no sleep.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
And finally I was like, I'm taking sleeping pills.
Speaker 5 (04:22):
A doctor was like, you got to do it, and
so it was our last option, and so I took them.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
Do you ever take a sleeping pills? They're crazy? They're
crazy if you go to sleep, dude.
Speaker 3 (04:32):
The trippiness behind that, and you're like in this other
zone and world.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
It's like the Twilight Zone.
Speaker 5 (04:38):
It was so wild to me because I've never had
a drink of alcohol, and so I don't know what
it's like to be drunk.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
I'd like to be drunk a lot. I'd like to
I'd like to do drugs.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
Well, if you ever want to talk about it, I've
been there before, my reference and reference, So where do
you want to go right now?
Speaker 5 (04:53):
I would take these pills and then I would be like,
you know what, I don't need to go to sleep
quite yet.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
I need to do some more work. That's the worst
thing you could possibly do.
Speaker 5 (05:01):
And there I would black out and I would wake
up and see that I had facetimed people.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
And don't remember it isn't that wild. Once I drove, No,
you did not.
Speaker 5 (05:14):
I don't remember it, but I drove, and I drove
off with the gas pump in my car.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
You're like Wolf of Wall Street. You know that scenery
is going.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
I was like, dude, I got home safely, and then
the next morning they do the recap and it's like,
full on not not a good situation.
Speaker 5 (05:29):
It was so unsafe for me, and so I was like,
I gotta stop taking them.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
But I would take them on long flights.
Speaker 5 (05:36):
I'd never been anywhere like overseas or even on a
vacation until I got older. So I started to go
places by myself and I would get the lay down seat.
I started to make money and I was single, so
I was like, I'm buying the freaking lay down seat.
You're gonna this is all coming to a point about
the lay down seats. And so I went to Ireland
by myself, went to Hawaii by myself.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
I want by yourself? Yeah, And mostly because I would go.
Speaker 5 (05:55):
I went to Ireland to finish my second book because
it was the closest far away place that would get
me off the time zone. So I wouldn't get into
my cycle of working because even though I'm like, I'm
gonna check out for a few days from like the
radio show on a podcast, it was still three o'clock.
Here at three o'clock, everybody around me and they were
still reaching out to get stuff done.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Right.
Speaker 5 (06:13):
If I go to Ireland seven hours eight hours ahead,
I'm working and people are like six in the morning,
but it's three pm.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
It's just the cycle.
Speaker 5 (06:21):
So I went to Ireland, same thing with Hawaii, and
I just thought I'm there working. And I took a
sleeping pill on the flight back, and I don't remember
a lot of the flight, and it scared me because
I thought, what did I say?
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Who today? This is the moment? And I thought what if?
Speaker 5 (06:39):
Because I could have easily been one of those dudes
that gets arrested for like laying in the aisle for
something and not knowing I.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
Was so out of control. Yeah, I wouldn't have known it.
And that was so scary to me. It wasn't the
gas pump in the car. It wasn't it was the
judge would have understood. I don't think he would have.
Speaker 5 (06:56):
You've taken a sleeping pill before, judge, So that's why
I stopped taking them. But if I take the right pills,
you're out. I can sleep like crazy. One of the
funniest stories about traveling internationally. It's not my story, and
I'm gonna paraphrase it a bit only because and I'm
gonna name drop. But I like name dropping because I
think it's more fun for listeners. Yeah, so people, oh
(07:18):
name drop?
Speaker 1 (07:19):
No.
Speaker 5 (07:19):
No, When I listen to somebody talking about stuff, I
want to hear name drops because it's it's interesting. I
was at dinner with Lionel Richie once and it was
me and Lionel and Luke and this is we were
in Syney.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
Luke Bryan, I don't know why did you just said? Luke,
said Lionel Richie. Of course, we're doing American Idols. Okay.
Speaker 5 (07:36):
We were in Savannah, Georgia before we started to shoot
the on location in city parts of the show where
you go in the auditions.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
What happened? Oh yeah, I love those auditions.
Speaker 5 (07:47):
And so it was the night before and we're having
dinner and Lionel Richie has been so famous for so
long he's forgotten what it's like to be normal, for sure,
because he's been famous for forty fifty years, like internationally
multi millionaire, famous.
Speaker 6 (08:02):
And he has never taken a step backwards. Yeah, we's
been at the top of his game. And I say again,
he is the greatest. The only negative thing I would
ever say about Lionel Richie, because he was the absolute nicest, sweetest,
most humble, giving generous guy ever, is that he was
a little late.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
He's kind of a little late. Hey, it's it's you're
on his time, bab Listen. It was kind of on
his time.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
You want this superstar, it's when I want to show
up after my nap.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
And of all the things, that's the only thing.
Speaker 5 (08:28):
Because he was the greatest guy, and we would sit
at dinner and he would tell great stories. We tell
stories about Rita Franklin, like voicemails from her before she died,
and he kept on his phone. He's just generous, right
generous with the stories. And he was talking about he
was like, we're flying to Europe and we couldn't get
a jet, a private jet to take us.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
That's really tough. So we flew commercial first class.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
And he called that rat class. He didn't but I've
never actually heard that. That's funny. Rat class so he
called that rat class. You haven't heard that before, Well
he must not, you know, fly commercial. I mean I've
never had I got five kids. I mean, I have
to sit in the back of playing with seven.
Speaker 5 (09:07):
Seats west if we're going to California, can no chance.
If we're going to California, that is all I will
fly because on the plane's not working.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
It'scause I'm not paying that bill. Yeah, exactly, that bill's brutal,
the bill.
Speaker 5 (09:19):
I'm not plying private to California from here. I'll use
a company plane at times. Yeah, but I'm not. No,
I'm still southwest at the time. Okay, southwest thirty percent,
now southwest twenty percent Southwest.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
Let's be honest, you're just throughout like a larger percentage,
maybe ten percent. You're they have Delta, they have Delta
flights that go out there first class.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
You're for sure taking that if it's there. But I'm
telling you Vegas they don't. They don't have. There's not
a lot. Yeah, if I had a natural so it's.
Speaker 5 (09:49):
Southwest of Vegas every time, and to if I'm flying
into California, I'm gonna fly into I think it uhould
be called Bob hope, but yeah, it's down in Orange County. Yeah,
or the other one. So the one Southwest flies into
that that's non John John Wayne that one. Yeah, yeah,
I like that with much smaller the best Southwest.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
I don't think there is hope, is there? Maybe not anymore?
John Burbank's it. That's yeah, Burbank's tiny, tiny Burbanks what
it is because.
Speaker 5 (10:17):
They fly Southwest flies in it's a plus anyway, I
know how it was so uh. Line was like I
flew first class and I woke up and I just
wanted like a sorbet and he goes, I woke up
in the middle of the night and I was like,
excuse me, can I get like a sorbet with a
a little bit of almond milk and some caramel nuggets?
(10:40):
And she's like, Sarah'm sorry this first class, but we can't.
We can't make whatever you want.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
We might be able to get your warm cookie. And
he was like, I was in shock. They couldn't make
a sorbet with nuggets.
Speaker 5 (10:52):
And I thought it was so funny because even he
knew he was a bit out of touch, but but
that's he was, like I was in a bed.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
He also people kept walking by when he was in
his bed, taking pictures of him. I thought that.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
That would be uh yeah, you can't do that. Come on,
you should know better if somebody's sleeping.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
I agree.
Speaker 5 (11:09):
Who's the coolest person you've ever seen? In first class?
Coolest person I've ever seen? You're a Google away, Your
money's a Google away.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
Yeah, I don't know. Don't act like rat classes. You're
common No, But I don't know. It's funny how he's
inserting himself as a common man here, Kevin. I think, Oh.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
My wife said. Somebody was in front of me the
other day. My wife said, hold on, this is a
funny story. She texts me, I'll tell you the name
right now. Hold on, everybody. So this is the part
of the story. So I didn't know that I was
doing the us UCLA game until that week. I had
already booked the flights for my family back home on Sunday,
so the company booked me. I said, can you get
(11:53):
me on that same flight? Well, they booked me first class.
The rest of my family was in business class behind me.
So I get on the plane. I get on the
plane and I'm sitting there and then my family starts
on and everybody's sitting down in like the first class
at this point, and I'm sitting here and I feel terrible,
and they're like, okay, dad, and I'm literally turning these people.
(12:15):
I was like, I am not the worst father you've
ever seen. To be honest with you, I didn't know
I was even going to be on this flight. My
company booked me. I would rather sit with my family,
and they're like, okay, guy, Like, my wife goes back
my five kids. So then my wife texts me and says,
let's see who was sitting in front of me. It
might take me a second. Guys, I know you're a
(12:37):
big question as you like Kevin. Can you the members vodcast?
Speaker 1 (12:41):
Andre three thousand? Yes? Andre? What three thousand? Okay?
Speaker 2 (12:46):
Oh what is it?
Speaker 1 (12:47):
Narls Barkley.
Speaker 5 (12:47):
No, No, that's see low Green?
Speaker 1 (12:51):
No, no, no, no, no, se low Green is one
of Narls Barklay. Okay.
Speaker 5 (12:54):
So you're so you picked another group, but not no
but a member. No, So you got Andre three thousand, Andre,
can you name the other one?
Speaker 1 (13:07):
No? Can you name me the one? For some reason,
I want to go like it. No, I'm not even
gonna a big boy.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
Oh my god, that's exactly what I was gonna say,
but I didn't want to say it's so wrong. I
swear to you that I said, big boy, and I
was like, but I really don't know if.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
This is right.
Speaker 3 (13:28):
Finish away, finish your story. My wife text me and says,
you know, Leanne Rymes is sitting.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Oh that's cool. So there you go, Leanne Rhymes. There's
one that I can remember that your wife could remember.
I tried, yeah, your wife texted, I saw.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
A black hat in front of me and I wasn't
gonna tap people on. Are any of you guys relevant
and verre important?
Speaker 1 (13:45):
Anybody you're famous?
Speaker 2 (13:47):
Talking about you guys when we.
Speaker 7 (13:48):
Are on our podcast on Tuesday, I was on a flight,
my wife and I were going to Europe, and one
hundred three thousand that's cool.
Speaker 5 (14:00):
Was sitting like a to the right of us because
those seats it's like to to two and so he
was over to the right of us.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
And you can absolutely tell it's him.
Speaker 5 (14:11):
The only difference is he's a little grayer and he
walks around because he doesn't really rap anymore. He just
plays the flute. He puts out flut out. Really, he's
a flout.
Speaker 3 (14:18):
Tist wow, and so say it again a flout test.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (14:24):
I didn't want to bother him, but you had to
get a picture of him. I didn't know the only
thing that I did. I have two stories like this,
Is there anybody that you'd go up to?
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (14:35):
There are people, yes.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (14:36):
It just depends a lot of it too, is like
their body language are dynamic? Are they by themselves? Are
they sleepy? Like I'm paying attention because on a much, much,
much smaller level, I'm grateful when people do that to me.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (14:47):
And she also wasn't with his kids. It wasn't eating.
There are certain rules that I have about going up
to people. But I see him and I told my
wife that's on twenty thousand, and my wife is twelve
years younger than I am. And she's like, is he
a wrestler? Because we talked the giant. We told me
Andrew the giant I was teaching. And I was like, no, no, no,
He's part of outcast.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
And she was like, which she still doesn't know what
out cast?
Speaker 5 (15:09):
Well, there are versions of outcast, like I was a
fan of outcast, like bombs over bag Dad, like the early.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
Yes and even the newer stuff.
Speaker 5 (15:16):
Once it was real popular, and I was like, shake it,
shake shake, shake it, shake it like a Paula Roi.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
She goes, oh, that's him. I was like, yeah, that's it.
She was like, oh cool. Then she doesn't care. She
gets no crap about celebrities.
Speaker 5 (15:28):
And so we're getting off into the airport and occasionally
someone will go up and be like, hey, can I
get a picture. I don't think he was annoyed, but
he definitely wasn't over the top about just like.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Hey, love it, let's give me, give me more.
Speaker 5 (15:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
I know.
Speaker 5 (15:43):
Also, it's like we've been flying for twelve hours. He's tired,
and so he was standing by the baggage gate. His
body language was kind of open to me, and I say, hey,
big fan, be listening to music for like twenty years.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
He said thanks, man walked on. I got my interaction
that I was it. He didn't like bust out.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
Hey dude in the Country Hall of Fame for Youngest
radio radio Hosts of all time.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
And like, nobody cares. I sent back my Dancing with
the Stars thing, but none of that. Nobody cares, Like
there's common thread there, there's not.
Speaker 5 (16:12):
Because he I believe they might be I did have
a hip hop deal for a Captain Caucasian.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
What if you'd have been like, I'm the biggest Captain
Caucasian fan ever.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
Yeah, how coolose it you want to collab now that
we got a little bit older, He'll play flute on
my next track.
Speaker 5 (16:27):
The only other one was I was in a restaurant
in California and was having dinner with a friend and
I was walking to the bathroom and I look over
and like, oh, I know that person sitting at the table.
They did not have food in front of them yet.
And I was like, on the way back, I'm going
to say something. I'll go to the bathroom wash my
hands just in case he wanted to shake hands and washed.
Man to sent down. And I walked by and it
(16:48):
was David Spade. I said, Hey, David Spade, super funny,
big fan.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
Man. He goes, thanks, Man, kept walking right. Have my interaction.
Speaker 5 (16:55):
I was talking about that because I think there are
general rules where it's if you see somebody that's famous
or known, if they're with their kids, do not approach,
if they have food in front of them, do not
approach any other time they know who they are. They
also have the right to say no, the record for sure,
but if no kids and no food, you can go
up and say, hey, I'm a fan. I've also found
(17:16):
the most celebrities, if they're not with their family or eating,
they like people to say they're a.
Speaker 3 (17:22):
Fan, right because you're doing your job well, yeah, and
you're appreciated.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
And so I was talking about that on the show
and he messaged me on Instagram and I was like, hey, man,
I really appreciate you not stopping me. And I'm like,
you're walking by, you know.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
The one of these memorable moments for me, I was
the year that I took over for Brady.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
We got done with season.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
I was back in LA where I'm from, and we
went out to this nice steak restaurant and normally.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
Hey Brady, what do you mean, bro?
Speaker 3 (17:47):
You just through lookout there, Tom Brady, drop a name,
But I'm saying the year, So the year I played
for the Patriots, I'm done with season, get back to LA.
We're out at a steak restaurant and normally people would
just cut like a Patriot fan every now and then,
but I'm going to the bathroom here, hey, And I
was like, I look over and it's Mark Woolburg and
(18:10):
he's a huge Patriots fan.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
Boston guy.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
Yeah, Boston guy. And of all people, I never thought
I was going to see this guy. But he he
invites me over, he shakes my hand, tells me, you know,
great season this, and I'm a big Patriot fan. And
I was like, that was the coolest interaction ever. Normally
it's something like, hey, well you sign something or do that, this,
that and the other. But for me, that was like, Wow,
that's rad. This guy's a mega superstar megas superstar. Markey.
(18:37):
Did I jammed that back in the day. Hell yeah.
I mean so that was a cool interaction right there.
But that was a few and far between where you
get like a mega superstar fan that's a sports fan.
And that's the only reason he talked to me. Otherwise
you wouldn't even know anything about it. But it just
just so happened that I aligned with that.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
That's also like Boston loving their athletes. Oh that city's wild.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
Yeah, Like they're such fanatical, passionate sports fan.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
If you're winning the pedestal, you guys like crazy.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
And it was incredible to be in Boston at the
time that I was too, because the Celtics won a championship.
The Boston Red Sox won a championship. The city was
on fire.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
See, I think I'd want to be the only team winning. Yeah, selfishly,
that was yeah. I think they had right. They'd won
three Super Bowls the year before I got there.
Speaker 3 (19:22):
They just accomplished their third Super Bowl, so we were
in the heyday.
Speaker 5 (19:26):
Ken Belson is coming up next. This guy is veteran
New York Times reporter. He's got a book called Every
Day of Sunday. It's basically Jerry Jones, Robert Kraft, and
Roger Goodell and how they've made the NFL so big.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
I'm excited about this interview. We will do that next.
We're gonna bring on Ken Belson.
Speaker 5 (19:57):
Now we're gonna talk about every Day of Sunday and
I'm gonna read the what do you call this th
Because I wrote books and it it was like the title, Hey, Ken,
what do you call the thing? I'm about to read
how Jerry Jones, Robert Craft, Roger Goodell turned the NFL
into a cultural and economic juggernaut.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
What's the official titles? What is that called a subheader?
Speaker 2 (20:16):
Yeah? Sub subtitle or a subhead?
Speaker 5 (20:19):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Anyway, the book's called every Day a Sunday,
and if you were to do the whole thing, it
would take you like an hour. But that's awesome, because
I mean these are as far as like sports culture,
you really get no bigger than these three.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
I want to ask first about Roger Goodell.
Speaker 5 (20:33):
I met Roger Goodell once and he had the absolute
strongest handshake of any man that I have ever shaken
hands with. Have you ever shaken Roger Goodell's hand?
Speaker 2 (20:44):
Yeah?
Speaker 8 (20:44):
Not only have I done that, but he like like
did a chest pump thing that he wants that. It
felt like I was back in the high school football
locker room thing. And this is the weird thing is
it was in federal court. I was covering the Sunday
ticket trial, which is in LA in twenty twenty four,
and he the reason that I went that particular day
(21:06):
was that Roger was on the stand, which is very
unusual to see a commissioner in a federal trial on
the court on the in the jury, on the on
the stand. And so he had he had finished the
morning session, and he knew I was there because I
had said a lot to him at the beginning, and
when he walked out. You know, he walked through the aisle,
the middle aisle, and you know, the reporters and the
(21:27):
lawyers were all standing up to stretch because it was
a lunch break, and he went past me and he
like took his fist and he like pounded my chest
like hey bro, and it was it was kind of
startling strong man. But yeah, so he's a strong guy,
very big, relatively big.
Speaker 5 (21:44):
You had talked about mister Goodell and kind of compared
him to like a whip, a Senate majority leader, like uh,
and I because what we know of him is the face.
We know he's making decisions, but we don't really get
to see how that sausage is made. Like what do
you think his superpower is?
Speaker 8 (22:03):
Yeah, so that's that's a great operation. I'm glad you
brought it up because I think the average fan looks
at him and says, Okay, he's the guy I boo
on draft day. He's the guy responsible for my team's
favorite running back for being suspended or whatever it is
he takes. That's part of his job, which is to
police the league itself, the players, But in reality, the
(22:26):
people who hire him are the owners, the NFL unlike
most of the other leagues, or are compared to the
other leagues, is much more owner driven. Everything has to
go to vote twenty four minimum of twenty four. So
I mean, Roger has his own ideas and his own
vision for the league, but he doesn't necessarily drive the bus.
He's kind of really good at synthesizing what the owners
(22:50):
want and what their visions are. And frankly, you know,
there's some prettiest student owners on the media front. What
do they do about gambling International? I'm sure AI will
come up a year or two. So these owners are
smart from their own businesses, and Er sort of channels them.
And so that's why I compared him to a Senate whip,
because he's always looking for how do I get to
(23:11):
twenty four votes? And you know, on rare occasions he
puts himself out there, one being like the Tush push
a couple of a year ago, and it actually failed.
That was a rare instance where Roger was kind of
was in front on that issue. But most of the
time he's just channeling what the owners want and what
he thinks, you know, will be better for the league
(23:33):
and frankly, to make them more money.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
I think is the bottom line.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
In the book, you talk about the powerbrokers being Jerry
Jones Robert Kraft, two guys. Actually I was part of
both of their organizations and two very different personalities.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
But how in this.
Speaker 3 (23:48):
Market that you're talking about, in the marketplace in the NFL,
how do they compliment each other and how do they
also compete against each other?
Speaker 8 (23:55):
Yeah, great question. Obviously they compete on the field. They
totally compliment each other in the ways I didn't fully
appreciate when I started doing the reporting. Jerry is like
this bubbling idea guy. He's like the mad scientist. He's
constantly looking at ways where can we promote the NFL.
(24:17):
He is the absolute firms believer in the power of
the shield and has from the time he took over.
It's one of the reasons he bought the Cowboys, and
so he's constantly coming up ideas. But he is not
necessarily the closer, and sometimes he can just wear people
out with his ideas. There's a great quote from Robert
(24:37):
about Jerry. He could charm a dog off a meat truck.
You know, he's just he works the phones. He still
has a flip phone, I think, and He's constantly just selling.
It's not about the money, It's about the deal and
the chase.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
And so.
Speaker 8 (24:54):
Where is Robert, I think is a little more in
the shadows, in the sense that he is more the closer,
the guy who tries to get to a win win
for say the networks in the league or a sponsor
in the league. And I think that is Robert's skill.
He's a bit more diplomatic. He's not necessarily the ideas guy,
but he's the guy that can get it over the
finish line.
Speaker 5 (25:13):
I'm curious your perception and experience with Jerry Jones. Both
Matt and I have a different relationship with him, but
both were so good in that Matt has told the
story here where Jerry Jones is like we want you.
We're going to send the plane to get your family,
like glowing reviews. I emailed the random Dallas Cowboy website
once because I didn't know how to get hold of Jerry.
(25:34):
Next thing you know, I'm in the chopper with Jerry
and his family. It's literally five of us. It's him,
his son, me and my wife and like my friends
and Jerry's taken us in the chopper where Landing's walking
us around. He's like, these people don't want to see
me there, And like I was so used to use
the word charms.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
I was so charmed.
Speaker 5 (25:51):
Like is that generally what he does to people is
make them love him because both of us had such
a wonderful relationship.
Speaker 8 (25:58):
Yeah, Jerry is a natural. It's just in his blood.
You could tell a part of his story. I was
not the first reported he tells it all the time.
Was when he was a kid and growing up in
Little Rock, North Little Rock, his dad had a grocery
store and to bring in customers, they basically put little
Jerry up there in cowboy outfits to kind of charm
(26:19):
the moms coming in to do grocery shopping. So he's
been kind of a showman from a very young age,
and he understood the connection between being a good showman
and making money literally helping his dad sell groceries by
by presenting entertainment, cute entertainment. And it's just in his
bloody he has that kind of twinkle. I'll tell you
(26:40):
one other story. I've been up in a helicopter too,
and with him and he doesn't know how to use
the headset and he was yeah, exactly you got to
hit the button the talk and whatever. It was a
total fiasco, totally. I couldn't hear a word he's saying.
It was so noisy. And so we take we're in
we're going around the Star in Frisco, and the photographer
(27:03):
loved it.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Right, we're getting in these aerial photos. We get back
love Field and.
Speaker 8 (27:07):
He he has that kind of charm and he's like, yeah,
I think we should talk some more because I had
like nothing in my notebook And we sat in the
hangar at a table for another hour and a half.
Like I'm sure he was booked and had to go somewhere,
but Jerry was going to finish that and I had come,
you know, down in Dallas to do that interview. So like,
(27:28):
that's the guy who's committed a lot of other people.
First all, they wouldn't have taken me up in a helicopter,
and number two wouldn't have spent twice as much time
with me just to make sure I had what I needed.
Speaker 3 (27:38):
Do you think this the NFL would have the same
success without a Jerry Jones, without Robert Kraft or Roger Goodell,
Like how much of an impact have they had that
maybe otherwise the NFL wouldn't have the same success.
Speaker 8 (27:52):
Yeah, I think about that a lot. You know, the
what ifs. You know, Jerry and Robert this is in
the Jerry came in eighty nine and Robert in ninety four.
At that time, paid record amounts for their team teams,
and I mean it's hard to believe Jerry paid one
hundred and fifteen million for the Cowboys. They were like
twelve billion now, but that was big money when it
(28:14):
went to nine figures, when it passed one hundred million.
Now you're kind of talking about a slimmer group of
people able to get into the NFL. And they were
part of a wave in the nineties of like wealthy
business people, smart business people were coming in, not just
football people and not people just interested in dabbling. And
so you had Wayne Heisinger in Miami, he owned Blockbuster
(28:37):
and a bunch of other things. Jeffrey Lourie from the
Loew's hotel chain. So you have like bigger money people
coming in. So they were not alone, and I think
that changed the thinking in the league from hey, football
is played. You know, you go to mass then you
come to the stadium, then you play at one o'clock
and you go home. And then you got people like
(28:58):
Jerry and Robert who went into debt to buy their
teams and they really needed new ideas to make back
their money, so that really fueled it. I think Jerry
and Robert were probably the best equipped. I think Heisinger
had lots of other businesses and he was partly distracted
Jeffrey Lorie just you know, doesn't want to necessarily lead
from the front. But Jerry and Robert definitely were part
(29:21):
of that wave. But they were very much more willing
to put in the extra hours on behalf of the league,
not just their teams. So I'd say that's why it
would have been a very different league. I don't think
they would have grown as quickly. They would have grown,
but not nearly as quickly.
Speaker 5 (29:35):
The book definitely covers economic growth and just growth in
general of the sport, because in our life we have
seen an NFL boom. Any chance, this is just your
opinion here, did the NFL at times grow too fast
they couldn't keep up.
Speaker 8 (29:49):
It's a great question, and frankly you're the first person
to ask it that way. So yeah, there's a question
of like how much is too much the NFL and
Paul Tagibow's period is really where it most took hold.
But there was you know, there's NFL Properties, which is
the for profit arm of the NFL. The NFL league
(30:12):
itself is just you know, governs the sport. And those
were the wild West days in the eighties and the
early nineties where they were signing deals all over the place,
different sponsorships. You know, you didn't have necessarily exclusivity, so
you didn't have like Nike as the official parel company.
So you have like six companies, and at that point
(30:34):
it gets kind of chaotic because everybody's kind of grabbing
it the same. There's you can you can saturate the
market if it's not done carefully, and so yes, there
was in some ways it was a hungry period and
there was money to be made, but it was it
was the sales team was kind of running the show
and without the same kind of game plan. I think
(30:54):
when Paul Tagubu comes in in nineteen eighty nine, one
of the first things he does, or a year or
two into it, he settles the labor problem. Players get
free agency.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
That was like a.
Speaker 8 (31:05):
Big, big deal obviously, and then there's revenue sharing. But
then he hires a guy named Neil Austrian who is
in the early part of the book. And Neil is
a very experienced business person, not a sports guy. He
worked at Warner Brothers, he worked in IBM, lots of
corporate experience, and he basically said, you run the business.
And at that point the NFL said, okay, let's rationalize this.
(31:27):
So you had Sunday ticket came in in ninety four,
and then the league starts signing exclusivity, the exclusive deals.
So instead of having five apparel makers, they say, let's
just go with Reebok. Instead of having a bunch of
different soda companies, let's just do coke. And so you
could charge a premium for that exclusivity. And so I
think that kind of streamlined the business, and that those
(31:50):
wild West days of you know, sales guys just signing
deals left and right kind of dissolved a little bit
and the NFL.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
Became a little more efficient.
Speaker 9 (31:59):
I guess it was a better way of looking at it.
Speaker 1 (32:15):
In the foreseeable future.
Speaker 3 (32:16):
Do you see anything that could hinder the growth of
the NFL? I mean, the one thing that I can
only think of as a collective bargaining agreement that they
can't come to.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
The table on both sides.
Speaker 3 (32:26):
Because I was part of the lockout in twenty eleven,
I believe it was, and it was back and forth,
and that's the only thing that I could see in
the foreseeable future that would slow down the growth.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
But I would love to hear your opinion on that, sure.
Speaker 8 (32:39):
I mean, obviously, labor is huge in the union right now,
doesn't just have an interim leader. So there's issues on
the player side as well, and that's always out there,
although I think there's still several years away, another half
decade ago on the current deal, but there's a lot
of stuff out there. Just think of let's talk really
broadly about the demographics of America. There's just essentially a
(33:01):
slowing birth rate, which means fewer kids, which means fewer
young athlete, which potentially means fewer young football players, and
potentially fewer NFL fans. And that is what's driving part
of what's driving the NFL to play overseas to find
new fans. I mean, you know, ninety three out of
the top one hundred broadcasts a few years ago were
(33:21):
NFL games, Like how much more can you saturate American
audiences with football? And they're not even at the eighteenth
game yet. So that's one is just the demographics of America.
And by the way, you know, baseball and other sports
deal with this too. And then you get gambling, which
we haven't discussed yet, and that is already changing the
contours the relationship with the fans. It's really fracturing, frankly,
(33:46):
the way people watch sports in general, but particularly the NFL.
Now you're literally betting on your phone in real time,
and so the whole viewing experience is completely distorted. Instead
of waiting until the end of the game to find
the score, you're betting on plays in the middle of
the game. And I just think that like this, it
has fracked sure the sports viewing experience, and I think
(34:08):
the league's plural are going to have a challenge. There's
a great book called Dopamine Nation, and this is just
part of a larger trend of you know, fantasy football
being one but smartphones, you know, and when I started
playing fantasy football twenty five years ago, I had to
go to a desktop computer and refresh eighteen times to
get my score. You know, these days, it's on my
(34:30):
phone automatically. So yeah, it's not just an NFL problem,
but it is an acute problem.
Speaker 3 (34:37):
Yeah, I want to go back to Roger Goodell for
a second, and he's had to navigate through a lot,
and I'm talking about concussions. I'm talking about social injustice
and what would you say was his biggest accomplishment while
he has been a leader of the NFL.
Speaker 8 (34:56):
So, you know, credit where it's due, the whole concussion protocol,
just as an example, taking a player out of a game,
having spotters and neurologists on the sidelines, players themselves self diagnosing,
you know, the blue tent.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
All these things didn't exist, you know, until.
Speaker 8 (35:13):
What ten years ago, and now you know there's an
actual formal protocol. You of course still have examples like
to and players who seem to get back, you know,
before they're ready, but just as many players now sit
out and maybe more, and so you know, that's something
that he probably deserves some credit for and pushing the
(35:34):
league to try and address these pretty big and really
frankly fundamental problems. There's a lot of marketing and messaging around,
say for helmets and youth football and flag football and
some of them are good.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Some.
Speaker 8 (35:50):
I mean, helmets are nice, but they're not going to
prevent a concussion. But I would say the concussion protocol
stuff has been a big game changer.
Speaker 5 (36:00):
We are an NFL podcast. They pay us, we work
for the NFL, and we also know who the boss is.
Now we have never had a guest that we've booked
and they've said no. But they can say no because
they are inevitably our boss. This book, I feel like
it is so comprehensive that there is a lot of
great stuff. There's also some honesty hear that maybe makes
(36:24):
versions of the NFL go man. I wish we'd done
a better job at this point. Why would the NFL
let us have you on? Since this is not a
complete I love the NFL book.
Speaker 8 (36:33):
I don't know whether they've intervened or they actually look
over your booking schedule.
Speaker 1 (36:37):
They do, know, they do. Why do they love you?
Speaker 2 (36:40):
They do?
Speaker 1 (36:40):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (36:41):
I don't know if they love me, but I think
they I have to say, the NFL.
Speaker 8 (36:46):
I think they know who I am, and you know,
I'd like to think the book is deeply reported. I've
spoken to at least a dozen owners for the book.
Union people, Network people, I think thoroughly researched the book,
and so from that perspective, you know, I think they
can appreciate the effort that went into it. It's not
(37:09):
a gotcha book in that sense. In one review of
the book, somebody said there are no heroes. I'd like
to think that's probably true. And I didn't write it
as a polemic. I wrote it as like a reported history,
if you want to call it that, or contemporary history.
So I think it's fair in that sense. And yeah,
there's stuff I'm sure they would like not to be
(37:29):
in the book, but that also gives it authenticity. I
hope it's not a cheerleading book. You know, there's a
fine line between giving Jerry Jones and Robert Craft and
Roger Goodell credit for making a lot of money. It's
a business book. On the other hand, you know, like
it's up to the reader to decide whether that's greed.
And maybe that's too much, right, but I'm not trying
(37:50):
to tilt the scales in that sense.
Speaker 5 (37:53):
Final question, Ken, being the reporter you are that are
reported on so many things, different types of things. I
have a couple of friends that also do a job
similar to yours. And they just talk about how they
text and text and text, and so many texts are
just not returned. Is that a big part of your career,
just texting and being left on read all the time.
Speaker 2 (38:14):
Yeah, it's part of the job. I will say.
Speaker 8 (38:17):
You know, I've been asked a lot like how long
did it take you to write the book? And the
short answer is I started it in twenty twenty two
and got the contract in twenty three to start writing.
But the real answer is twenty thirteen when I started
covering the league full time, because the book didn't happen
without relationships I had already had with Pick the Owner,
(38:39):
Art Rooney, Shod Cohn, Arthur Blank, Robert Kraft, so forth.
So like you know, when I got the book, I
already knew that for nine or ten years. And they
do pick up your calls, or at least they take
you seriously. And I'll be honest, like they're busy people, right,
I get it. So just getting time in Arthur Blank's
(39:00):
schedule took like three months, you know, or two months.
Speaker 2 (39:03):
I don't know.
Speaker 8 (39:04):
Shod con I ended up speaking to him for four
hours on a Saturday before a day before a game.
But you know, that took months to sort out. They're
just busy people, So I get it, and I'm asking
them for a favor. I think the owners who sat
with me obviously we're interested in talking about, for instance,
the twenty eleven lockout TV deals, whatever. But you know,
(39:28):
you're just juggling a lot. Then you know the network
people all these things. Very few people'll just call you
right back, So I get that that's just part of the.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
Job, Ken Belson. Every day is Sunday.
Speaker 5 (39:41):
Jerry Jones, Robert Kraft, and Roger Goodell turned the NFL
into a cultural and economic juggernaut. I know the book's
been out since October. I hope you sell a billion copies.
I'm it's so thorough. You can order the book on Amazon,
but you can order anything on Amazon. You can't order
pickle jar. You can order this book. You can order
whatever you want, but this book is there.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
Ken.
Speaker 5 (40:00):
We really appreciate the time spending with us today, and
congratulations in the book.
Speaker 2 (40:04):
Thank you, great conversation, appreciate it.
Speaker 5 (40:06):
Thanks, okay, thanks to Ken Belson. I didn't even get
to my Arkansas hiring a new coach.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
Guy.
Speaker 3 (40:18):
Yeah, I said, what we're gonna do? Uh, we're gonna
wrap this and so let's be part one.
Speaker 5 (40:23):
We'll have part two coming up in a little bit
because we got to get to our topics too.
Speaker 1 (40:26):
So, uh, this is lots to say.
Speaker 5 (40:28):
I'm Bobby Bones, that's Matt Castle, that's kick Off Kevin,
and we got Morgan over the running cameras today because Brandon,
because Brandon's like onation or something. That's that's true. Okay,
this is part one. Part two will be up soon.
We've had lots to say.
Speaker 4 (40:42):
Goodbye everybody, lots to say with Bobby Bones and Matt
Castle is a production of the NFL and iHeart Podcasts.
Speaker 1 (40:54):
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts.
Lots to Say with Bobby Bones and Matt Castle is
a production of the NFL and iHeart podcasts.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
We Got Lots just say, we got lots to say?
Speaker 3 (00:20):
What is better here?
Speaker 4 (00:21):
And we hope you say because we got lost.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Just said, yeah, we got lots just say. Here's Bobby that.
Speaker 5 (00:33):
Hey, welcome to another episode of Lots to Say. Hey,
what a family picture of you guys at USC. How
cool is that is it?
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Because it was your.
Speaker 5 (00:41):
Alma water, your wife's alma water, and you were working,
so he took ahole family.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Yeah, well they went.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
We went out there for Thanksgiving break family where it
was out there. And then obviously my wife is alumnus
as well, and so we brought all the kids and
my extended family, my brothers, my sister, all my nieces
and nephews, they all came as well.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
So I brought the kids down.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
And the funny part was we were doing the pregame
show and normally what we do is we look for
a big alumni to come bang the drum. It's like
the last segment before we go and push it to
the actual game. And we couldn't find anybody out on
the field, like no heavy hitters, so then the field
producer Wilkie comes up and goes, cas, we're just gonna
(01:23):
We're gonna use your family.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
I was like, oh, was that idea? Yeah, So they
were on NBC.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
And the funniest part was my oldest son, who's only
twelve years old. He's sitting there and he's got a
stoic personality and they go to bang the drum and
You're like, all my other kids are smiling stuff, and
he's stone cold, and the He's just stone cold, no
facial expression. And Wilkie's like, I think your oldest son
was upset. I was like, no, that's just him, dude.
He's he's gonna be here all the time. But it
(01:49):
was it was awesome experience for the kids. And to
have them there on the sideline and and be back
at the my alma mater for the last game of
the year was a good way to wrap it up.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
It was a great picture. It was a lot of fun.
I know, I'm not comic guy, I'm not heart guy.
Speaker 5 (02:04):
I wish I liked pictures on Instagram, because in my heart,
I do like a lot of pictures. I wish I
just got credit for liking pictures instead of liking them
with my thumb. Can I just scroll and I'm like, oh,
that's good, that's good. But I actually was so compelled
to write great picture on that.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Did you write it? Yeah? Oh thank you. I didn't
even read it.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
Yeah, I don't read my comments. Okay, I'm not liking
there comments probably two none. Look, I just don't click
on the picture to read through the comments. It's a
great picture. Oh well, I appreciate that.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Yeah. It was fun. It was fun. It was good
to see the family.
Speaker 3 (02:40):
But it was a crazy week because on Thanksgiving I
had to fly back to the East Coast because I
was in studio. Friday, got on the plane from JFK
at six o'clock in the morning to fly back out
to the West Coast for the USC UCLA game. Then
I got on a flight Sunday morning at six point
thirty to fly back to Nashville. A lot of travel.
So you went California, New York, New York, California, and
(03:04):
then right back to Nashville.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
That's long. Yeah. Did they at least put you in
a lay down seat? Did you have those ideas?
Speaker 6 (03:09):
And I was so thankful for that because that's basically
a flight to Europe.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
It's a game changer. I mean it was a game changer.
You could actually lay down and like nap a little bit.
I don't sleep while on planes. Can you pass down
on planes if I take the right pills? Yeah, Well
I need some of those pills then because I didn't
have them.
Speaker 5 (03:24):
Well I don't take them anymore. I had some issues.
I think I've told you this before. I got like
jumped at work, got pistol whipped, another event, and had
my house broken into.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
So I was struggling a little bit with sleep, obviously,
and so I tried that would do it to you?
Oh those are three hardcore?
Speaker 5 (03:42):
Yeah, it was tough, and so I tried a lot
of different things because I don't like to take I
don't want to say medicine. I don't like to take
medication because I have fear of addiction because all my
family's been addicted and they're mostly all dead from it.
And so I wasn't sleeping at all after those instances,
like for months and months, and I was going to
my doctor who were trying all the natural remedies and
(04:03):
tai chi and anything that possibly would work, holistic, non holistic.
I was doing everything except taking sleeping pills. And so
I started taking sleeping pills because I was getting no
sleep and I was getting sick all the time because
I was getting no sleep.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
And finally I was like, I'm taking sleeping pills.
Speaker 5 (04:22):
A doctor was like, you got to do it, and
so it was our last option, and so I took them.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
Do you ever take a sleeping pills? They're crazy? They're
crazy if you go to sleep, dude.
Speaker 3 (04:32):
The trippiness behind that, and you're like in this other
zone and world.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
It's like the Twilight Zone.
Speaker 5 (04:38):
It was so wild to me because I've never had
a drink of alcohol, and so I don't know what
it's like to be drunk.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
I'd like to be drunk a lot. I'd like to
I'd like to do drugs.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
Well, if you ever want to talk about it, I've
been there before, my reference and reference, So where do
you want to go right now?
Speaker 5 (04:53):
I would take these pills and then I would be like,
you know what, I don't need to go to sleep
quite yet.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
I need to do some more work. That's the worst
thing you could possibly do.
Speaker 5 (05:01):
And there I would black out and I would wake
up and see that I had facetimed people.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
And don't remember it isn't that wild. Once I drove, No,
you did not.
Speaker 5 (05:14):
I don't remember it, but I drove, and I drove
off with the gas pump in my car.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
You're like Wolf of Wall Street. You know that scenery
is going.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
I was like, dude, I got home safely, and then
the next morning they do the recap and it's like,
full on not not a good situation.
Speaker 5 (05:29):
It was so unsafe for me, and so I was like,
I gotta stop taking them.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
But I would take them on long flights.
Speaker 5 (05:36):
I'd never been anywhere like overseas or even on a
vacation until I got older. So I started to go
places by myself and I would get the lay down seat.
I started to make money and I was single, so
I was like, I'm buying the freaking lay down seat.
You're gonna this is all coming to a point about
the lay down seats. And so I went to Ireland
by myself, went to Hawaii by myself.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
I want by yourself? Yeah, And mostly because I would go.
Speaker 5 (05:55):
I went to Ireland to finish my second book because
it was the closest far away place that would get
me off the time zone. So I wouldn't get into
my cycle of working because even though I'm like, I'm
gonna check out for a few days from like the
radio show on a podcast, it was still three o'clock.
Here at three o'clock, everybody around me and they were
still reaching out to get stuff done.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Right.
Speaker 5 (06:13):
If I go to Ireland seven hours eight hours ahead,
I'm working and people are like six in the morning,
but it's three pm.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
It's just the cycle.
Speaker 5 (06:21):
So I went to Ireland, same thing with Hawaii, and
I just thought I'm there working. And I took a
sleeping pill on the flight back, and I don't remember
a lot of the flight, and it scared me because
I thought, what did I say?
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Who today? This is the moment? And I thought what if?
Speaker 5 (06:39):
Because I could have easily been one of those dudes
that gets arrested for like laying in the aisle for
something and not knowing I.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
Was so out of control. Yeah, I wouldn't have known it.
And that was so scary to me. It wasn't the
gas pump in the car. It wasn't it was the
judge would have understood. I don't think he would have.
Speaker 5 (06:56):
You've taken a sleeping pill before, judge, So that's why
I stopped taking them. But if I take the right pills,
you're out. I can sleep like crazy. One of the
funniest stories about traveling internationally. It's not my story, and
I'm gonna paraphrase it a bit only because and I'm
gonna name drop. But I like name dropping because I
think it's more fun for listeners. Yeah, so people, oh
(07:18):
name drop?
Speaker 1 (07:19):
No.
Speaker 5 (07:19):
No, When I listen to somebody talking about stuff, I
want to hear name drops because it's it's interesting. I
was at dinner with Lionel Richie once and it was
me and Lionel and Luke and this is we were
in Syney.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
Luke Bryan, I don't know why did you just said? Luke,
said Lionel Richie. Of course, we're doing American Idols. Okay.
Speaker 5 (07:36):
We were in Savannah, Georgia before we started to shoot
the on location in city parts of the show where
you go in the auditions.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
What happened? Oh yeah, I love those auditions.
Speaker 5 (07:47):
And so it was the night before and we're having
dinner and Lionel Richie has been so famous for so
long he's forgotten what it's like to be normal, for sure,
because he's been famous for forty fifty years, like internationally
multi millionaire, famous.
Speaker 6 (08:02):
And he has never taken a step backwards. Yeah, we's
been at the top of his game. And I say again,
he is the greatest. The only negative thing I would
ever say about Lionel Richie, because he was the absolute nicest, sweetest,
most humble, giving generous guy ever, is that he was
a little late.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
He's kind of a little late. Hey, it's it's you're
on his time, bab Listen. It was kind of on
his time.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
You want this superstar, it's when I want to show
up after my nap.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
And of all the things, that's the only thing.
Speaker 5 (08:28):
Because he was the greatest guy, and we would sit
at dinner and he would tell great stories. We tell
stories about Rita Franklin, like voicemails from her before she died,
and he kept on his phone. He's just generous, right
generous with the stories. And he was talking about he
was like, we're flying to Europe and we couldn't get
a jet, a private jet to take us.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
That's really tough. So we flew commercial first class.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
And he called that rat class. He didn't but I've
never actually heard that. That's funny. Rat class so he
called that rat class. You haven't heard that before, Well
he must not, you know, fly commercial. I mean I've
never had I got five kids. I mean, I have
to sit in the back of playing with seven.
Speaker 5 (09:07):
Seats west if we're going to California, can no chance.
If we're going to California, that is all I will
fly because on the plane's not working.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
It'scause I'm not paying that bill. Yeah, exactly, that bill's brutal,
the bill.
Speaker 5 (09:19):
I'm not plying private to California from here. I'll use
a company plane at times. Yeah, but I'm not. No,
I'm still southwest at the time. Okay, southwest thirty percent,
now southwest twenty percent Southwest.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
Let's be honest, you're just throughout like a larger percentage,
maybe ten percent. You're they have Delta, they have Delta
flights that go out there first class.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
You're for sure taking that if it's there. But I'm
telling you Vegas they don't. They don't have. There's not
a lot. Yeah, if I had a natural so it's.
Speaker 5 (09:49):
Southwest of Vegas every time, and to if I'm flying
into California, I'm gonna fly into I think it uhould
be called Bob hope, but yeah, it's down in Orange County. Yeah,
or the other one. So the one Southwest flies into
that that's non John John Wayne that one. Yeah, yeah,
I like that with much smaller the best Southwest.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
I don't think there is hope, is there? Maybe not anymore?
John Burbank's it. That's yeah, Burbank's tiny, tiny Burbanks what
it is because.
Speaker 5 (10:17):
They fly Southwest flies in it's a plus anyway, I
know how it was so uh. Line was like I
flew first class and I woke up and I just
wanted like a sorbet and he goes, I woke up
in the middle of the night and I was like,
excuse me, can I get like a sorbet with a
a little bit of almond milk and some caramel nuggets?
(10:40):
And she's like, Sarah'm sorry this first class, but we can't.
We can't make whatever you want.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
We might be able to get your warm cookie. And
he was like, I was in shock. They couldn't make
a sorbet with nuggets.
Speaker 5 (10:52):
And I thought it was so funny because even he
knew he was a bit out of touch, but but
that's he was, like I was in a bed.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
He also people kept walking by when he was in
his bed, taking pictures of him. I thought that.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
That would be uh yeah, you can't do that. Come on,
you should know better if somebody's sleeping.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
I agree.
Speaker 5 (11:09):
Who's the coolest person you've ever seen? In first class?
Coolest person I've ever seen? You're a Google away, Your
money's a Google away.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
Yeah, I don't know. Don't act like rat classes. You're
common No, But I don't know. It's funny how he's
inserting himself as a common man here, Kevin. I think, Oh.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
My wife said. Somebody was in front of me the
other day. My wife said, hold on, this is a
funny story. She texts me, I'll tell you the name
right now. Hold on, everybody. So this is the part
of the story. So I didn't know that I was
doing the us UCLA game until that week. I had
already booked the flights for my family back home on Sunday,
so the company booked me. I said, can you get
(11:53):
me on that same flight? Well, they booked me first class.
The rest of my family was in business class behind me.
So I get on the plane. I get on the
plane and I'm sitting there and then my family starts
on and everybody's sitting down in like the first class
at this point, and I'm sitting here and I feel terrible,
and they're like, okay, dad, and I'm literally turning these people.
(12:15):
I was like, I am not the worst father you've
ever seen. To be honest with you, I didn't know
I was even going to be on this flight. My
company booked me. I would rather sit with my family,
and they're like, okay, guy, Like, my wife goes back
my five kids. So then my wife texts me and says,
let's see who was sitting in front of me. It
might take me a second. Guys, I know you're a
(12:37):
big question as you like Kevin. Can you the members vodcast?
Speaker 1 (12:41):
Andre three thousand? Yes? Andre? What three thousand? Okay?
Speaker 2 (12:46):
Oh what is it?
Speaker 1 (12:47):
Narls Barkley.
Speaker 5 (12:47):
No, No, that's see low Green?
Speaker 1 (12:51):
No, no, no, no, no, se low Green is one
of Narls Barklay. Okay.
Speaker 5 (12:54):
So you're so you picked another group, but not no
but a member. No, So you got Andre three thousand, Andre,
can you name the other one?
Speaker 1 (13:07):
No? Can you name me the one? For some reason,
I want to go like it. No, I'm not even
gonna a big boy.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
Oh my god, that's exactly what I was gonna say,
but I didn't want to say it's so wrong. I
swear to you that I said, big boy, and I
was like, but I really don't know if.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
This is right.
Speaker 3 (13:28):
Finish away, finish your story. My wife text me and says,
you know, Leanne Rymes is sitting.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Oh that's cool. So there you go, Leanne Rhymes. There's
one that I can remember that your wife could remember.
I tried, yeah, your wife texted, I saw.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
A black hat in front of me and I wasn't
gonna tap people on. Are any of you guys relevant
and verre important?
Speaker 1 (13:45):
Anybody you're famous?
Speaker 2 (13:47):
Talking about you guys when we.
Speaker 7 (13:48):
Are on our podcast on Tuesday, I was on a flight,
my wife and I were going to Europe, and one
hundred three thousand that's cool.
Speaker 5 (14:00):
Was sitting like a to the right of us because
those seats it's like to to two and so he
was over to the right of us.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
And you can absolutely tell it's him.
Speaker 5 (14:11):
The only difference is he's a little grayer and he
walks around because he doesn't really rap anymore. He just
plays the flute. He puts out flut out. Really, he's
a flout.
Speaker 3 (14:18):
Tist wow, and so say it again a flout test.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (14:24):
I didn't want to bother him, but you had to
get a picture of him. I didn't know the only
thing that I did. I have two stories like this,
Is there anybody that you'd go up to?
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (14:35):
There are people, yes.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (14:36):
It just depends a lot of it too, is like
their body language are dynamic? Are they by themselves? Are
they sleepy? Like I'm paying attention because on a much, much,
much smaller level, I'm grateful when people do that to me.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (14:47):
And she also wasn't with his kids. It wasn't eating.
There are certain rules that I have about going up
to people. But I see him and I told my
wife that's on twenty thousand, and my wife is twelve
years younger than I am. And she's like, is he
a wrestler? Because we talked the giant. We told me
Andrew the giant I was teaching. And I was like, no, no, no,
He's part of outcast.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
And she was like, which she still doesn't know what
out cast?
Speaker 5 (15:09):
Well, there are versions of outcast, like I was a
fan of outcast, like bombs over bag Dad, like the early.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
Yes and even the newer stuff.
Speaker 5 (15:16):
Once it was real popular, and I was like, shake it,
shake shake, shake it, shake it like a Paula Roi.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
She goes, oh, that's him. I was like, yeah, that's it.
She was like, oh cool. Then she doesn't care. She
gets no crap about celebrities.
Speaker 5 (15:28):
And so we're getting off into the airport and occasionally
someone will go up and be like, hey, can I
get a picture. I don't think he was annoyed, but
he definitely wasn't over the top about just like.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Hey, love it, let's give me, give me more.
Speaker 5 (15:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
I know.
Speaker 5 (15:43):
Also, it's like we've been flying for twelve hours. He's tired,
and so he was standing by the baggage gate. His
body language was kind of open to me, and I say, hey,
big fan, be listening to music for like twenty years.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
He said thanks, man walked on. I got my interaction
that I was it. He didn't like bust out.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
Hey dude in the Country Hall of Fame for Youngest
radio radio Hosts of all time.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
And like, nobody cares. I sent back my Dancing with
the Stars thing, but none of that. Nobody cares, Like
there's common thread there, there's not.
Speaker 5 (16:12):
Because he I believe they might be I did have
a hip hop deal for a Captain Caucasian.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
What if you'd have been like, I'm the biggest Captain
Caucasian fan ever.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
Yeah, how coolose it you want to collab now that
we got a little bit older, He'll play flute on
my next track.
Speaker 5 (16:27):
The only other one was I was in a restaurant
in California and was having dinner with a friend and
I was walking to the bathroom and I look over
and like, oh, I know that person sitting at the table.
They did not have food in front of them yet.
And I was like, on the way back, I'm going
to say something. I'll go to the bathroom wash my
hands just in case he wanted to shake hands and washed.
Man to sent down. And I walked by and it
(16:48):
was David Spade. I said, Hey, David Spade, super funny,
big fan.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
Man. He goes, thanks, Man, kept walking right. Have my interaction.
Speaker 5 (16:55):
I was talking about that because I think there are
general rules where it's if you see somebody that's famous
or known, if they're with their kids, do not approach,
if they have food in front of them, do not
approach any other time they know who they are. They
also have the right to say no, the record for sure,
but if no kids and no food, you can go
up and say, hey, I'm a fan. I've also found
(17:16):
the most celebrities, if they're not with their family or eating,
they like people to say they're a.
Speaker 3 (17:22):
Fan, right because you're doing your job well, yeah, and
you're appreciated.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
And so I was talking about that on the show
and he messaged me on Instagram and I was like, hey, man,
I really appreciate you not stopping me. And I'm like,
you're walking by, you know.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
The one of these memorable moments for me, I was
the year that I took over for Brady.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
We got done with season.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
I was back in LA where I'm from, and we
went out to this nice steak restaurant and normally.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
Hey Brady, what do you mean, bro?
Speaker 3 (17:47):
You just through lookout there, Tom Brady, drop a name,
But I'm saying the year, So the year I played
for the Patriots, I'm done with season, get back to LA.
We're out at a steak restaurant and normally people would
just cut like a Patriot fan every now and then,
but I'm going to the bathroom here, hey, And I
was like, I look over and it's Mark Woolburg and
(18:10):
he's a huge Patriots fan.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
Boston guy.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
Yeah, Boston guy. And of all people, I never thought
I was going to see this guy. But he he
invites me over, he shakes my hand, tells me, you know,
great season this, and I'm a big Patriot fan. And
I was like, that was the coolest interaction ever. Normally
it's something like, hey, well you sign something or do that, this,
that and the other. But for me, that was like, Wow,
that's rad. This guy's a mega superstar megas superstar. Markey.
(18:37):
Did I jammed that back in the day. Hell yeah.
I mean so that was a cool interaction right there.
But that was a few and far between where you
get like a mega superstar fan that's a sports fan.
And that's the only reason he talked to me. Otherwise
you wouldn't even know anything about it. But it just
just so happened that I aligned with that.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
That's also like Boston loving their athletes. Oh that city's wild.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
Yeah, Like they're such fanatical, passionate sports fan.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
If you're winning the pedestal, you guys like crazy.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
And it was incredible to be in Boston at the
time that I was too, because the Celtics won a championship.
The Boston Red Sox won a championship. The city was
on fire.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
See, I think I'd want to be the only team winning. Yeah, selfishly,
that was yeah. I think they had right. They'd won
three Super Bowls the year before I got there.
Speaker 3 (19:22):
They just accomplished their third Super Bowl, so we were
in the heyday.
Speaker 5 (19:26):
Ken Belson is coming up next. This guy is veteran
New York Times reporter. He's got a book called Every
Day of Sunday. It's basically Jerry Jones, Robert Kraft, and
Roger Goodell and how they've made the NFL so big.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
I'm excited about this interview. We will do that next.
We're gonna bring on Ken Belson.
Speaker 5 (19:57):
Now we're gonna talk about every Day of Sunday and
I'm gonna read the what do you call this th
Because I wrote books and it it was like the title, Hey, Ken,
what do you call the thing? I'm about to read
how Jerry Jones, Robert Craft, Roger Goodell turned the NFL
into a cultural and economic juggernaut.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
What's the official titles? What is that called a subheader?
Speaker 2 (20:16):
Yeah? Sub subtitle or a subhead?
Speaker 5 (20:19):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Anyway, the book's called every Day a Sunday,
and if you were to do the whole thing, it
would take you like an hour. But that's awesome, because
I mean these are as far as like sports culture,
you really get no bigger than these three.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
I want to ask first about Roger Goodell.
Speaker 5 (20:33):
I met Roger Goodell once and he had the absolute
strongest handshake of any man that I have ever shaken
hands with. Have you ever shaken Roger Goodell's hand?
Speaker 2 (20:44):
Yeah?
Speaker 8 (20:44):
Not only have I done that, but he like like
did a chest pump thing that he wants that. It
felt like I was back in the high school football
locker room thing. And this is the weird thing is
it was in federal court. I was covering the Sunday
ticket trial, which is in LA in twenty twenty four,
and he the reason that I went that particular day
(21:06):
was that Roger was on the stand, which is very
unusual to see a commissioner in a federal trial on
the court on the in the jury, on the on
the stand. And so he had he had finished the
morning session, and he knew I was there because I
had said a lot to him at the beginning, and
when he walked out. You know, he walked through the aisle,
the middle aisle, and you know, the reporters and the
(21:27):
lawyers were all standing up to stretch because it was
a lunch break, and he went past me and he
like took his fist and he like pounded my chest
like hey bro, and it was it was kind of
startling strong man. But yeah, so he's a strong guy,
very big, relatively big.
Speaker 5 (21:44):
You had talked about mister Goodell and kind of compared
him to like a whip, a Senate majority leader, like uh,
and I because what we know of him is the face.
We know he's making decisions, but we don't really get
to see how that sausage is made. Like what do
you think his superpower is?
Speaker 8 (22:03):
Yeah, so that's that's a great operation. I'm glad you
brought it up because I think the average fan looks
at him and says, Okay, he's the guy I boo
on draft day. He's the guy responsible for my team's
favorite running back for being suspended or whatever it is
he takes. That's part of his job, which is to
police the league itself, the players, But in reality, the
(22:26):
people who hire him are the owners, the NFL unlike
most of the other leagues, or are compared to the
other leagues, is much more owner driven. Everything has to
go to vote twenty four minimum of twenty four. So
I mean, Roger has his own ideas and his own
vision for the league, but he doesn't necessarily drive the bus.
He's kind of really good at synthesizing what the owners
(22:50):
want and what their visions are. And frankly, you know,
there's some prettiest student owners on the media front. What
do they do about gambling International? I'm sure AI will
come up a year or two. So these owners are
smart from their own businesses, and Er sort of channels them.
And so that's why I compared him to a Senate whip,
because he's always looking for how do I get to
(23:11):
twenty four votes? And you know, on rare occasions he
puts himself out there, one being like the Tush push
a couple of a year ago, and it actually failed.
That was a rare instance where Roger was kind of
was in front on that issue. But most of the
time he's just channeling what the owners want and what
he thinks, you know, will be better for the league
(23:33):
and frankly, to make them more money.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
I think is the bottom line.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
In the book, you talk about the powerbrokers being Jerry
Jones Robert Kraft, two guys. Actually I was part of
both of their organizations and two very different personalities.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
But how in this.
Speaker 3 (23:48):
Market that you're talking about, in the marketplace in the NFL,
how do they compliment each other and how do they
also compete against each other?
Speaker 8 (23:55):
Yeah, great question. Obviously they compete on the field. They
totally compliment each other in the ways I didn't fully
appreciate when I started doing the reporting. Jerry is like
this bubbling idea guy. He's like the mad scientist. He's
constantly looking at ways where can we promote the NFL.
(24:17):
He is the absolute firms believer in the power of
the shield and has from the time he took over.
It's one of the reasons he bought the Cowboys, and
so he's constantly coming up ideas. But he is not
necessarily the closer, and sometimes he can just wear people
out with his ideas. There's a great quote from Robert
(24:37):
about Jerry. He could charm a dog off a meat truck.
You know, he's just he works the phones. He still
has a flip phone, I think, and He's constantly just selling.
It's not about the money, It's about the deal and
the chase.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
And so.
Speaker 8 (24:54):
Where is Robert, I think is a little more in
the shadows, in the sense that he is more the closer,
the guy who tries to get to a win win
for say the networks in the league or a sponsor
in the league. And I think that is Robert's skill.
He's a bit more diplomatic. He's not necessarily the ideas guy,
but he's the guy that can get it over the
finish line.
Speaker 5 (25:13):
I'm curious your perception and experience with Jerry Jones. Both
Matt and I have a different relationship with him, but
both were so good in that Matt has told the
story here where Jerry Jones is like we want you.
We're going to send the plane to get your family,
like glowing reviews. I emailed the random Dallas Cowboy website
once because I didn't know how to get hold of Jerry.
(25:34):
Next thing you know, I'm in the chopper with Jerry
and his family. It's literally five of us. It's him,
his son, me and my wife and like my friends
and Jerry's taken us in the chopper where Landing's walking
us around. He's like, these people don't want to see
me there, And like I was so used to use
the word charms.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
I was so charmed.
Speaker 5 (25:51):
Like is that generally what he does to people is
make them love him because both of us had such
a wonderful relationship.
Speaker 8 (25:58):
Yeah, Jerry is a natural. It's just in his blood.
You could tell a part of his story. I was
not the first reported he tells it all the time.
Was when he was a kid and growing up in
Little Rock, North Little Rock, his dad had a grocery
store and to bring in customers, they basically put little
Jerry up there in cowboy outfits to kind of charm
(26:19):
the moms coming in to do grocery shopping. So he's
been kind of a showman from a very young age,
and he understood the connection between being a good showman
and making money literally helping his dad sell groceries by
by presenting entertainment, cute entertainment. And it's just in his
bloody he has that kind of twinkle. I'll tell you
(26:40):
one other story. I've been up in a helicopter too,
and with him and he doesn't know how to use
the headset and he was yeah, exactly you got to
hit the button the talk and whatever. It was a
total fiasco, totally. I couldn't hear a word he's saying.
It was so noisy. And so we take we're in
we're going around the Star in Frisco, and the photographer
(27:03):
loved it.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Right, we're getting in these aerial photos. We get back
love Field and.
Speaker 8 (27:07):
He he has that kind of charm and he's like, yeah,
I think we should talk some more because I had
like nothing in my notebook And we sat in the
hangar at a table for another hour and a half.
Like I'm sure he was booked and had to go somewhere,
but Jerry was going to finish that and I had come,
you know, down in Dallas to do that interview. So like,
(27:28):
that's the guy who's committed a lot of other people.
First all, they wouldn't have taken me up in a helicopter,
and number two wouldn't have spent twice as much time
with me just to make sure I had what I needed.
Speaker 3 (27:38):
Do you think this the NFL would have the same
success without a Jerry Jones, without Robert Kraft or Roger Goodell,
Like how much of an impact have they had that
maybe otherwise the NFL wouldn't have the same success.
Speaker 8 (27:52):
Yeah, I think about that a lot. You know, the
what ifs. You know, Jerry and Robert this is in
the Jerry came in eighty nine and Robert in ninety four.
At that time, paid record amounts for their team teams,
and I mean it's hard to believe Jerry paid one
hundred and fifteen million for the Cowboys. They were like
twelve billion now, but that was big money when it
(28:14):
went to nine figures, when it passed one hundred million.
Now you're kind of talking about a slimmer group of
people able to get into the NFL. And they were
part of a wave in the nineties of like wealthy
business people, smart business people were coming in, not just
football people and not people just interested in dabbling. And
so you had Wayne Heisinger in Miami, he owned Blockbuster
(28:37):
and a bunch of other things. Jeffrey Lourie from the
Loew's hotel chain. So you have like bigger money people
coming in. So they were not alone, and I think
that changed the thinking in the league from hey, football
is played. You know, you go to mass then you
come to the stadium, then you play at one o'clock
and you go home. And then you got people like
(28:58):
Jerry and Robert who went into debt to buy their
teams and they really needed new ideas to make back
their money, so that really fueled it. I think Jerry
and Robert were probably the best equipped. I think Heisinger
had lots of other businesses and he was partly distracted
Jeffrey Lorie just you know, doesn't want to necessarily lead
from the front. But Jerry and Robert definitely were part
(29:21):
of that wave. But they were very much more willing
to put in the extra hours on behalf of the league,
not just their teams. So I'd say that's why it
would have been a very different league. I don't think
they would have grown as quickly. They would have grown,
but not nearly as quickly.
Speaker 5 (29:35):
The book definitely covers economic growth and just growth in
general of the sport, because in our life we have
seen an NFL boom. Any chance, this is just your
opinion here, did the NFL at times grow too fast
they couldn't keep up.
Speaker 8 (29:49):
It's a great question, and frankly you're the first person
to ask it that way. So yeah, there's a question
of like how much is too much the NFL and
Paul Tagibow's period is really where it most took hold.
But there was you know, there's NFL Properties, which is
the for profit arm of the NFL. The NFL league
(30:12):
itself is just you know, governs the sport. And those
were the wild West days in the eighties and the
early nineties where they were signing deals all over the place,
different sponsorships. You know, you didn't have necessarily exclusivity, so
you didn't have like Nike as the official parel company.
So you have like six companies, and at that point
(30:34):
it gets kind of chaotic because everybody's kind of grabbing
it the same. There's you can you can saturate the
market if it's not done carefully, and so yes, there
was in some ways it was a hungry period and
there was money to be made, but it was it
was the sales team was kind of running the show
and without the same kind of game plan. I think
(30:54):
when Paul Tagubu comes in in nineteen eighty nine, one
of the first things he does, or a year or
two into it, he settles the labor problem. Players get
free agency.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
That was like a.
Speaker 8 (31:05):
Big, big deal obviously, and then there's revenue sharing. But
then he hires a guy named Neil Austrian who is
in the early part of the book. And Neil is
a very experienced business person, not a sports guy. He
worked at Warner Brothers, he worked in IBM, lots of
corporate experience, and he basically said, you run the business.
And at that point the NFL said, okay, let's rationalize this.
(31:27):
So you had Sunday ticket came in in ninety four,
and then the league starts signing exclusivity, the exclusive deals.
So instead of having five apparel makers, they say, let's
just go with Reebok. Instead of having a bunch of
different soda companies, let's just do coke. And so you
could charge a premium for that exclusivity. And so I
think that kind of streamlined the business, and that those
(31:50):
wild West days of you know, sales guys just signing
deals left and right kind of dissolved a little bit
and the NFL.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
Became a little more efficient.
Speaker 9 (31:59):
I guess it was a better way of looking at it.
Speaker 1 (32:15):
In the foreseeable future.
Speaker 3 (32:16):
Do you see anything that could hinder the growth of
the NFL? I mean, the one thing that I can
only think of as a collective bargaining agreement that they
can't come to.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
The table on both sides.
Speaker 3 (32:26):
Because I was part of the lockout in twenty eleven,
I believe it was, and it was back and forth,
and that's the only thing that I could see in
the foreseeable future that would slow down the growth.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
But I would love to hear your opinion on that, sure.
Speaker 8 (32:39):
I mean, obviously, labor is huge in the union right now,
doesn't just have an interim leader. So there's issues on
the player side as well, and that's always out there,
although I think there's still several years away, another half
decade ago on the current deal, but there's a lot
of stuff out there. Just think of let's talk really
broadly about the demographics of America. There's just essentially a
(33:01):
slowing birth rate, which means fewer kids, which means fewer
young athlete, which potentially means fewer young football players, and
potentially fewer NFL fans. And that is what's driving part
of what's driving the NFL to play overseas to find
new fans. I mean, you know, ninety three out of
the top one hundred broadcasts a few years ago were
(33:21):
NFL games, Like how much more can you saturate American
audiences with football? And they're not even at the eighteenth
game yet. So that's one is just the demographics of America.
And by the way, you know, baseball and other sports
deal with this too. And then you get gambling, which
we haven't discussed yet, and that is already changing the
contours the relationship with the fans. It's really fracturing, frankly,
(33:46):
the way people watch sports in general, but particularly the NFL.
Now you're literally betting on your phone in real time,
and so the whole viewing experience is completely distorted. Instead
of waiting until the end of the game to find
the score, you're betting on plays in the middle of
the game. And I just think that like this, it
has fracked sure the sports viewing experience, and I think
(34:08):
the league's plural are going to have a challenge. There's
a great book called Dopamine Nation, and this is just
part of a larger trend of you know, fantasy football
being one but smartphones, you know, and when I started
playing fantasy football twenty five years ago, I had to
go to a desktop computer and refresh eighteen times to
get my score. You know, these days, it's on my
(34:30):
phone automatically. So yeah, it's not just an NFL problem,
but it is an acute problem.
Speaker 3 (34:37):
Yeah, I want to go back to Roger Goodell for
a second, and he's had to navigate through a lot,
and I'm talking about concussions. I'm talking about social injustice
and what would you say was his biggest accomplishment while
he has been a leader of the NFL.
Speaker 8 (34:56):
So, you know, credit where it's due, the whole concussion protocol,
just as an example, taking a player out of a game,
having spotters and neurologists on the sidelines, players themselves self diagnosing,
you know, the blue tent.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
All these things didn't exist, you know, until.
Speaker 8 (35:13):
What ten years ago, and now you know there's an
actual formal protocol. You of course still have examples like
to and players who seem to get back, you know,
before they're ready, but just as many players now sit
out and maybe more, and so you know, that's something
that he probably deserves some credit for and pushing the
(35:34):
league to try and address these pretty big and really
frankly fundamental problems. There's a lot of marketing and messaging around,
say for helmets and youth football and flag football and
some of them are good.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Some.
Speaker 8 (35:50):
I mean, helmets are nice, but they're not going to
prevent a concussion. But I would say the concussion protocol
stuff has been a big game changer.
Speaker 5 (36:00):
We are an NFL podcast. They pay us, we work
for the NFL, and we also know who the boss is.
Now we have never had a guest that we've booked
and they've said no. But they can say no because
they are inevitably our boss. This book, I feel like
it is so comprehensive that there is a lot of
great stuff. There's also some honesty hear that maybe makes
(36:24):
versions of the NFL go man. I wish we'd done
a better job at this point. Why would the NFL
let us have you on? Since this is not a
complete I love the NFL book.
Speaker 8 (36:33):
I don't know whether they've intervened or they actually look
over your booking schedule.
Speaker 1 (36:37):
They do, know, they do. Why do they love you?
Speaker 2 (36:40):
They do?
Speaker 1 (36:40):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (36:41):
I don't know if they love me, but I think
they I have to say, the NFL.
Speaker 8 (36:46):
I think they know who I am, and you know,
I'd like to think the book is deeply reported. I've
spoken to at least a dozen owners for the book.
Union people, Network people, I think thoroughly researched the book,
and so from that perspective, you know, I think they
can appreciate the effort that went into it. It's not
(37:09):
a gotcha book in that sense. In one review of
the book, somebody said there are no heroes. I'd like
to think that's probably true. And I didn't write it
as a polemic. I wrote it as like a reported history,
if you want to call it that, or contemporary history.
So I think it's fair in that sense. And yeah,
there's stuff I'm sure they would like not to be
(37:29):
in the book, but that also gives it authenticity. I
hope it's not a cheerleading book. You know, there's a
fine line between giving Jerry Jones and Robert Craft and
Roger Goodell credit for making a lot of money. It's
a business book. On the other hand, you know, like
it's up to the reader to decide whether that's greed.
And maybe that's too much, right, but I'm not trying
(37:50):
to tilt the scales in that sense.
Speaker 5 (37:53):
Final question, Ken, being the reporter you are that are
reported on so many things, different types of things. I
have a couple of friends that also do a job
similar to yours. And they just talk about how they
text and text and text, and so many texts are
just not returned. Is that a big part of your career,
just texting and being left on read all the time.
Speaker 2 (38:14):
Yeah, it's part of the job. I will say.
Speaker 8 (38:17):
You know, I've been asked a lot like how long
did it take you to write the book? And the
short answer is I started it in twenty twenty two
and got the contract in twenty three to start writing.
But the real answer is twenty thirteen when I started
covering the league full time, because the book didn't happen
without relationships I had already had with Pick the Owner,
(38:39):
Art Rooney, Shod Cohn, Arthur Blank, Robert Kraft, so forth.
So like you know, when I got the book, I
already knew that for nine or ten years. And they
do pick up your calls, or at least they take
you seriously. And I'll be honest, like they're busy people, right,
I get it. So just getting time in Arthur Blank's
(39:00):
schedule took like three months, you know, or two months.
Speaker 2 (39:03):
I don't know.
Speaker 8 (39:04):
Shod con I ended up speaking to him for four
hours on a Saturday before a day before a game.
But you know, that took months to sort out. They're
just busy people, So I get it, and I'm asking
them for a favor. I think the owners who sat
with me obviously we're interested in talking about, for instance,
the twenty eleven lockout TV deals, whatever. But you know,
(39:28):
you're just juggling a lot. Then you know the network
people all these things. Very few people'll just call you
right back, So I get that that's just part of the.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
Job, Ken Belson. Every day is Sunday.
Speaker 5 (39:41):
Jerry Jones, Robert Kraft, and Roger Goodell turned the NFL
into a cultural and economic juggernaut. I know the book's
been out since October. I hope you sell a billion copies.
I'm it's so thorough. You can order the book on Amazon,
but you can order anything on Amazon. You can't order
pickle jar. You can order this book. You can order
whatever you want, but this book is there.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
Ken.
Speaker 5 (40:00):
We really appreciate the time spending with us today, and
congratulations in the book.
Speaker 2 (40:04):
Thank you, great conversation, appreciate it.
Speaker 5 (40:06):
Thanks, okay, thanks to Ken Belson. I didn't even get
to my Arkansas hiring a new coach.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
Guy.
Speaker 3 (40:18):
Yeah, I said, what we're gonna do? Uh, we're gonna
wrap this and so let's be part one.
Speaker 5 (40:23):
We'll have part two coming up in a little bit
because we got to get to our topics too.
Speaker 1 (40:26):
So, uh, this is lots to say.
Speaker 5 (40:28):
I'm Bobby Bones, that's Matt Castle, that's kick Off Kevin,
and we got Morgan over the running cameras today because Brandon,
because Brandon's like onation or something. That's that's true. Okay,
this is part one. Part two will be up soon.
We've had lots to say.
Speaker 4 (40:42):
Goodbye everybody, lots to say with Bobby Bones and Matt
Castle is a production of the NFL and iHeart Podcasts.
Speaker 1 (40:54):
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hosts And Creators
Bobby Bones
Amy Brown
Lunchbox
Eddie Garcia
Morgan Huelsman
Raymundo
Mike D
Abby Anderson
Scuba Steve
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