Dann Gallucci from Murder City Devils/Modest Mouse

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi there. I'm Zach Raff and I'm Donald Phason. We're
real life best friends, but we met playing fake life
best friends Turk and j D on the sitcom Scrubs.
Twenty years later, we've decided to rewatch the series, one
episode at a time and put our memories into a
podcast you can listen to at home. We're gonna get
all our special guest friends like Sarah Chalk, John c McGinley,

(00:21):
Neil Flynn, Judy Reyes, show creator Bill Lawrence, editors, writers,
and even prop masters would tell us about what inspired
the series and how we became a family. You can
listen to the podcast Fake Doctors, Real Friends with Zack
and Donald on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast,
and wherever you get your podcasts. This is the jabber

(00:44):
Jaw podcast Network. Hello everybody, how are you doing? I'm
Ray Harkins. This is a hundred words of Lass the podcast.
Thank you for downloading this and putting it into your ears.
I've been noticing recently the downloads have been climbing. A
lot of you. You are are are consuming this thing,

(01:06):
and I really appreciate that. This month is special for
a lot of different reasons. One, it's March Happy St.
Patrick's Day. No, that's not why it's special. What is
special is the fact that we were doing a themed month.
I always like it when I can do these sort
of you know, these these package months where we have,
you know, one consistent theme. Whether it's like I think

(01:27):
I did one on record labels in the past, I
did one kind of or I collected a bunch of
people from San Diego and spoke to them. This one
is all about Seattle. And before you start coming in
on me where it's like, oh, you missed all these
people from Seattle, you should spoken to this person. Just
spoken this person. Two things I'll have you do. One,
dive back in the archives because there's a lot of

(01:48):
people who I've spoken to from Seattle, like John Pettybone
as an example. Go dive back in the archives because
you will find a great interview I did with him. Um,
So just layoff for one, just do you know, don't
don't yell at me. Um. And two and some of
the obvious people were it's just like, hey, why don't
you talk with uh, you know, with with Ben Gibbert
from Death Cafer Cutie. Um, I just didn't have the
time to try and track him down. Okay, So so

(02:11):
just be happy with what you got, which frankly is awesome.
And today's guest is Dan Glucci, who is the guitar
player uh and he's just done a bunch of great
stuff with so many bands, Area fifty one, Death Wish Kids,
Emergency Devils, Modest Mouse. He also played Uh wait, who

(02:32):
else do you play with? Cold War Kids? Yeah? Yeah,
he played some played played with that band, recorded their records,
uh for I want to say like at least two
of their foldings he did. But he is also a
very important figure within the podcast realm as well, because
he did this great, great show with his current significant
other and some other people called The Dream, which is

(02:55):
a great podcast you should check out. If you haven't
heard of it, you can find it anywhere good podcasts
are downloaded. But um yeah, hold on Una Memento, Port
of War. A few things that are on the top
of my head. First of all, More Noise Records dot com.
It is a great website. It's actually got uh emailed

(03:16):
to me by the proprietor. He wants to get the
word out. And I checked it out and it's like
cool man, it's you know, primarily focuses on like grind, power, violence,
that sort of stuff, So you should check out the
website more Noise Records dot com. Okay, and then the
second thing that is on the top of my head
is the fact that we had a great d I
y space unfortunately have to shutter called a Riff Mountains

(03:39):
in Fullerton, California, here in the Orange County area. And um, yeah,
it's always sad when these things happen. And Alex, who
is the person pushing it forward, did some great, great
work there and I just always, you know, my my
heart goes out because a lot of people pour you know,
their their time, their effort, blood, sweat, and tears into it.

(04:02):
And then you know, for for a myriad of different reasons, Uh,
it can't do shows anymore. So pour one out. I'm
I'm pouring a metaphysical forty out because I don't drink forties.
But then also you know, you can't really see me
doing that. So but anyways, Riff Mountain, Alex, thank you
very much for doing all the all that you did
to contribute to this beautiful scene here in southern California. Uh.

(04:26):
And also Rockabilly dot com use the code PC job
or job that will get you ten percent off your order.
It is a It's basically the only place that you
should buy merch. Okay, they have half a million items.
It's all officially licensed, high quality, fast shipping, great customer service.
There is nothing that you can't get at that Merge store.
It is so so cool. So shout out to Frankie.

(04:49):
Thank you for your continual support of this show. Appreciate that.
Use that code, buy all your band merch for the year,
give it to your friends throughout the year, and you're
you're you're just gonna be everybody's favorite. Okay, just go
ahead and do that. And uh yeah, like I said,
Dan is the guest. It was a great chat. We
actually recorded this at his studio, so you know, it
may sound a little bit different than the podcast that

(05:11):
you are maybe used to hearing on this this specific channel,
so to speak, like this is a television channel. But
Dan was so welcoming and I appreciated it so much.
So here's that discussion and I'll talk to you after
the episode is over. M Well, I think Commerdencity Devil's

(06:36):
actually played with bain Um specifically. Oh yeah, I wouldn't
be surprised. Um, I think we did a tour with them,
and I can't remember what other band, but there's a
point at which, um, we started veering and could feel
ourselves veering into this weird scene that we didn't want
anything to do with. And it was like like Nashville

(06:56):
Pussy and like bands like that, where we're like totally
whoa whoa right right, Like yeah, yeah exactly, like this
is not us, This is not what we want to
be associated. This is bad news, all right now, this
is not a politics or anything. Yeah, And um, so
we were like, okay, only all ages shows, and um,
we're going back to playing with hardcore bands and that's it,

(07:18):
right so and thankfully hardcore bands we're still willing to
play with us. But yeah, yeah, it's uh that that
actually segways perfectly into the the the initial the initial question,
which it's it's a bigger question, but I'm sure it's
one that you've you've reflected on in some weird way
where like I mean, living in southern California, Orange County,

(07:39):
like I saw Honestly, I was trying to think as
I was driving up here. I was like, I probably
saw you guys. No, shortage of maybe like seventeen eighteen times,
like I've seen like from every spot, from like I
mentioned over email, PCH Club where you know, you guys
definitely singed my arm hairs. Yeah, sorry about that. No,
it's okay, I just wasn't. I wasn't expecting to that
that time. Those shows were aggressive at the PCH there were,

(08:00):
and especially to where it's like, I mean, there was
so many hazards about that place in general. Oh I
can't even imagine. Yeah, I just that one. Yeah, but
the but then, I you know, I still you know,
straightedge hardcore kid by definition and application, but the um
there was something that you know, very few bands in

(08:21):
my opinion, were able to achieve, and it was that
sort of like unifying factor like honestly they're a band
like a Veil, and honestly, Emergency Devil's really kind of
fit that mold in my opinion as well, where it
was like, okay, at an A Veil show, you'd see
obviously like hardcore kids, punk kids, like you know, dirty
homeless kids like cruss punks, whatever. Emergency Devil's always kind

(08:42):
of hit that mark to me as well, where it
was like you would attract so many different people from
so many different walks of life, and like, you know, uh,
I don't know if you guys like recognize that as
you were obviously like mentioning that you would play with
hardcore bands and rock bands and all this other stuff,
but there was always this weird undercurrent of like, oh yeah,
like everybody can show up in Mercenity Devil Show and

(09:04):
like have fun. Yeah, I mean I think that's I
think when we noticed it is at that time because
when we started out, um, like like John Petty Bone,
he was always a fan of any band that we
had done. So like we were in bands called Death
which kids in area and um he I remember in

(09:26):
like high school, John would barely talk to me because
he you know, he was in the coolest band totally
and even if you weren't straight edge, which I I wasn't,
but I always hung around strage kids. Um. I had
a friend that moved to Tucson in in junior high, so,
um I ended up going down there and I would
hang out with all these straight edge kids with with

(09:48):
him and in Tucson, so I'd come back and I
knew a bunch of straight edge kids because of this
weird connection and whatever, and um, I always thought, you know,
John was the one of the coolest kids in the
scene or whatever, and um, it wasn't long. I mean
like a year or two after high school. He started

(10:08):
listening to the bands that we were in and for
some reason he liked them. And because he liked them,
it felt kind of like it was okay for everyone
to like them, and like all of Undertow liked us
so like we and we'd be in different little side
projects together and stuff, even though we were like the
furthest thing from Straight Edge, which was the start of
this this connection to to hardcore, not just from growing

(10:31):
up and like listening to d C hardcore and knowing
strange kids and that kind of stuff, but actually, um,
hanging out with them and being like friends and being
in bands together and stuff like that. So um, we
always felt like as a band we were really lucky
because when we did get to that point where we
found ourselves on tours with these bands that we just

(10:52):
shared nothing in common with, especially politically. I think that's
where it hit us the hardest, because you go back
to someone's house after a show and you're you're going
to sleep and people are up having a few beers
or whatever, and all of a sudden people say things
that are just you know, we are we are like
radical progressive, like we are. We came from, right, girl,

(11:14):
We came from like, you know, a world where you know,
you just you can't like the idea of being homophobic
or racist or or or like not feminists, like any
of those things like is like repulsive totally. And then
all of a sudden you're in a room with these
people and you're like, oh, I thought your whole stick

(11:34):
was like an act, but it's not. And first of all,
gross act thinks, but that's weird, and and second of all,
fuck you. We have to get the funk out of here.
We put ourselves in this position, and when we were
we finally realized that we and we were just like,
can't do it anymore. Um. I think we just felt

(11:55):
really lucky that the hardcore scene uh was still there
embraced us and it didn't like ostracized this for going
too far in that direction or something. Yeah. Yeah, no,
that's a really good point because I think that I mean,
you know, even the split seven InChI did with you
know Botch, which is like, you know, many people point
to that as like this this really uh, this this

(12:17):
interesting inflection point where you had these two bands who
you know, ostensibly sound nothing like each other, but well
not ostensibly that you don't sound anything like each other,
and but the unifying factor of like, oh, yeah, we're
from the same scene, like you've been cut from the
same cloth. And I think that's ah, Like I said,
I think that that is the unifying factor of the
fact that around the country, you know, it wasn't just

(12:37):
in Seattle that, like you said, the hardcore scene embraced you.
You were able to pick that up, you know, kind
of across the country from what I noticed, and the
fact that it's like, oh yeah, like this is who
you're You're you're the base of kids who are coming
to these shows as you're getting more and more popular,
and you are attracting people who you know, go to
just a couple of concerts a year or whatever. But
you had that that that bedrock that was there. Well.

(12:58):
And it was nice too because around that same time, um,
we met at the drive in and that started a
relationship with and and the in the Obviously those two
bands didn't sound anything alike either, but we were we
always wanted to We didn't care to play with bands
that sounded like us. For the most part, we didn't
like bands that sounded like so um we you know.

(13:21):
And also we we always tried to kind of sound
like this garage e whatever you want to call it,
punk band, um, but we were so not we weren't
very good at it, so we ended up kind of
creating our own thing kind of. Um. And uh, anyways,
once we met at the drive in and just started

(13:42):
touring with them more and more. Um, they were really
similar to where hardcore kids would go see them, and um,
all kinds of different people would go see them, and
so the tours, as odd as they were, kind of
made total sense, you know, totally. It's the kinship of like, well,
we don't fit in anywhere. We fit in a little
bit everywhere, as opposed to like, oh yeah, we are
just this this linear band that you're going to you know,

(14:04):
fingerpoint and wear hooded sweathirts and stage. I've it's like
we'll attract some of those kids, but then some of
those kids, Yeah, but that's well that's the thing too.
And I mean the reason why we became friends without
the driving was the first show that we played with them.
I remember the night before we played a show in
um Albuquerque and there was a fight at the show

(14:25):
and there was this kid who had gotten one of
the kids that had gotten in this fight, and I
remember thinking, like, what is what's happening here? Anyways? Um,
the next day I went out to get like a
coffee or something to eat or whatever, right before the
band's taking off, and um, I see his kid walking
down the street and he's like, are you going to
help pass the next I'm like yeah, and he's like,

(14:45):
you gotta check out out the drive into the best
band in the world or whatever, like okay, and we
were playing with them, so um so yeah. And then
we went back like at that night with with them
to like that one of their houses, and like it
was just immediately like oh oh yeah, like we're we
are really from the same types of scenes and we
are interested in the same thing. So it was it

(15:06):
was really nice and that actually, the touring with them,
I think kind of prolonged the life of the band
because we had like close friends instead of touring with
with people who we didn't really know. Yeah, totally, you
just like tour mates, like you felt you felt like
there was this this true kinship of like actual humans.
Yeah yeah, which is awesome. UM kind of reflecting on

(15:27):
you know, or putting the focus on you as a person.
You were. Were you born and raised in Seattle Okay,
because like, yeah, Tucson kind of played a part in there,
Like you were saying, yeah, well so I was. Um.
I was actually born and raised until junior high in Portland.
In Portland, and UM, I have like a big where
it's smaller now, but big Italian family that lives there.

(15:50):
And um we moved to the suburbs of Seattle, my family,
UM when I was in junior high and then I
left my I grat I almost dropped out of high
school after my junior year, but my mom convinced me
to go to an alternative school. And what it allowed
me to do is I was living on my own
and paying my own rent, and I was working thirty

(16:13):
five hours a week and getting all my ARCAD credit,
which is what I was really missing. For some reason,
I didn't take typing or something, which I would go
back for when I was thirty, but I was able
to graduate early. So I left when I was seventeen
and Spencer from Mercy Devils and I um moved into
an apartment together as soon as we could. He had

(16:34):
already dropped out of school, So god, I got it.
The So it's I mean, from my casual observation of
you as a person, obviously on stage and and you know,
just consuming interviews and stuff like that, you're you know,
you're a pretty soft spoken guy, like you're not. Um,
you don't strike me as a sort of person who
is just like, uh, you know, really I guess confrontational.

(16:56):
A lot of people would assume like Murgencity Devils is
just like, oh yeah, dude, like you know, a bunch
of like you know, raging maniacs, and it's like, well,
I'm some nights, sure, but you know, none of us
are raging, all right, And so that that's You've always
struck me as that. But like the I guess the
turmoil that you're experiencing like in school, was it basically
just like you know, I don't fit in anywhere here
and I just need to get out. Yes, okay, yeah,

(17:17):
I mean basically what happened is, I uh, I had
some problems at home, you know, and um, not to
sound too ominous, that was pretty similar problems that I
think a lot of kids have, but mine were not
super fun and my parents ended up splitting up, which
which for me at the time was actually probably a

(17:38):
good thing. How old are you? And so I was
able to kind of gain a little independence that I
didn't have before. And so I think one of the
things was I didn't fit in. I didn't And this
was at a time where there was like three punk
kids in my high school and three you know, the
one down the street and three over here, and that

(17:58):
made the group of it's you know, it wasn't like
a big group because at a high school. I'm sure
you're right, Yeah, because especially to where it's just like
if you are of a certain age, it's like the
that you know, the the pre Internet era where it's
like you were you're you're just kind of hanging out
with people who sort of tangentially liked aggressive music truly yeah, yeah,

(18:19):
like you're super into Metallica, Like okay, like I can
get down with that totally. Yeah. And then you meet
like I remember I met this guy Derek Lenneman who's
still a good friend of mine, and he was in
a band and um screen printed his own shirts and
um was super into DC hardcore, which is what I
was starting to get super into. So you know, obviously

(18:41):
for Gazi and stuff like that was those bands were big,
but like all the weird like rain like the sound
of Trains kind of stuff. And then also, um, you know,
yeah that kind of exactly totally seven State of the
Union all of that stuff. So like when we actually
when I had really met him, that's where I started

(19:02):
to see an identity kind of for me, like that, oh,
this is the this is the kind of punk that
makes sense to me, Like this the mohawk punk stuff
and whatever like that's that doesn't it didn't speak to you,
doesn't feel like musically it could be cool, but I
don't identify with it. Yeah, but like I'll totally put
a stocking cap on and like a gas station jacket

(19:23):
and like some dickies that I tapered and whatever and
listened to like DC hardcore. And then and then at
the same time, we were going down to Olympi because
Seattle was like not a great place for for punk music,
um so, but Olympia had this thriving, insane amazing I
can't believe I was there at the time seen you know,

(19:45):
and so we had all these opportunities to see like
bands like Ummunke Deio Ferries that like queercore bands and
feminist bands and like bands that were we could actually
the politics aligned with what we were looking for, you know. So, um,
I apologize, I have a cold, and no, you're fine

(20:06):
getting over cold. I'm not. Um but anyways, yeah, that's
when I started to kind of feel like an identity
for me. And then it was just like, get me
out of this suburb, like I grew up half my
life in this in this small but inside the city,
like in the middle of the city. Um. But and
that made sense to me. And then we went there

(20:28):
and I was like, no, this sucks. So I just
had to get to see how as quick as possible,
right right right? And so you're you're do you have
brothers and sisters? I have one sister, okay, and so
you are the older, the older of the two. No,
she's four and a half years older or sorry, three
and a half years older, okay. And so um, I
guess you're I mean, like you're mentioning your exposure to
you know, DC hardcore and sort of independent music was

(20:49):
happening through your friend prior to that was like, how
did how did you start to like grasp onto that stuff? Um?
So for me or there was like this this really
easy to map out path or Um. First it was
through a tape club, one of the Columbia tape clubs. Yeah,
so I got the Ramones mania and then when I
got that, I started to like read the liner notes

(21:11):
because I was always like a nerdy liner note kid,
even when I was really young, and in fact, I
have a seven year old and I'm always like, why
doesn't you want to read the line? You know that's
what I heard. But anyway, so I that was like
the first thing and then I got and then I
remember I went to the mall and um, there's a

(21:31):
record store called Selfine Square and I got um their
first Ramons record. And then um, I was into hip
hop in eighth grade and there was this kid who
was like the only black kid at my school, super nice. Um.
I don't remember his last name. His name was John
and he had to connect in Seattle because we couldn't
get good hip hop records on the East Side, which

(21:53):
is the suburb of Seattle. Um. So his uh like
cousin I think lived in Seattle and there was a
record store that actually had hip hop record so you
give him. I would give him money. He gave it
to his cousin and then I get back like a
busin maar key tape or something. That's amazing. So and anyway,
so I was listening to that and that got me
into reggae and so, um, you know, started with like

(22:14):
kind of Bob Marley Peter Tosh stuff. But I remember
I had a Bob Marley sticker and um and a
remote sticker on my notebook in uh, ninth grade. And
this girl who was like an older cool, like straight
edge punk girl. Um, she was dating the singer of
Galleon's Lap, which was that's a big deal. Deal, that's
a big deal. So um. Anyways, she was like, look,

(22:36):
if you like she was kind of like, oh god, um, like,
if you like the Ramans and Bob Marley, then you
should listen to Bad Brains and um. And that was it.
That's how I got into Bad Brains was my entrance
to the whole everything. And it still is my favorite.
You know, yeah, I well one of you know of course, right, yeah,

(22:56):
like the that was your jumping off point. It's like, yeah,
ever everyone know it, and I always I always love
those stories just because it's usually some really really inconsequential
thing for the other person, Like right, it's just you
would never remember that totally. Yeah you could. Yeah, you
can sit her down right now. I be like, do
you remember when you did that to me? No, not
at all, Like it's just passing in the hall road, right,

(23:17):
except then the on the receiving end, you're just like, oh, yeah,
my life was irrevocably changed because of this one record. Yes, absolutely,
Like I got the Roar Sessions or whatever, um, and
that was it. And I got that at the movies, um,
the seven inch like and so because it wasn't on
that record, right right, you're like, I gotta get a

(23:37):
little more. Yeah, so like anyway, so and then from
that it was like, Okay, that got me into better reggae,
It got me into um, better punk and or like
you know punk that that I gravitated towards eventually, like
stuff that I liked. It pushed me down the road. Um,
but yeah, bad Brains was my my interests well, and
it's and I just like that because it's such a

(23:59):
distillation of the you know, both of your diverging tastes
where it was just like oh yeah, like here's like
the perfect and malcolmiction like oh wow, like it you know,
and I mean still in this day it's not like
very many bands exist, but in both of those worlds
right right, So it's it's just perfect that it kind
of hit you on that that very note. The and

(24:19):
so as you started to you know, kind of find
your identity and obviously be like, you know, school is
not for me, like was there? I mean, and music
had consumed you at that point and you started how
do you because I'm not sure at the timeline in
regards to you know, Death Wish kids in Area fifty one,
like had you already started playing in high school with
that sort of stuff? Or I was in So I
was in high school. My friend Derek who I mentioned, Yes,

(24:40):
he had a friend named Chris Eckley who was in
a band called Ricky Ticky Tavvy okay, and they were
they would play with like Undertow and like bands like that,
like they were a part of that scene. And their
bass player Quip, and so I started playing bass with them.
I don't know how you just picked them on to
play guitar like on a very rudimentary level, and I

(25:02):
probably kind of lied, but like them. Yeah. Anyway, so
I started playing bass with them and that was my
first band, and then UM Andrea Zolo, who was in
UM Death which kids and every fifty one and then
went on to be in Pretty Girls Make Graves UM.
She joined that band when our singer quit and then
we changed our name and our big claim to fame

(25:24):
was that we were on a Yo Yo compilation, UM,
one of the Olympia comps, which was a big deal.
I mean we're on with like bands like Link and
Back and like, you know all that. It was totally
like we snuck we snuck in here. This is not right, um.
But that was kind of like the first time that
we had ever recorded anything that we you know, and Um.

(25:47):
After that that band broke up, and Andrea and Spencer
and I were just like, like, we want to be
in it. This is an over an actual punk band,
like like a just in your face, fucked up punk band,
you know. And so that's when those bands started right right,
and so it was it pretty much kind of from
the moment that you started to play ship, like you

(26:10):
immediately were like, okay, this is all I can focus on. Yeah, probably, yeah, yeah,
And I was really lucky, but just because there were
so many people around that we're actually doing it, and
like it wasn't the kind of thing that where you
And this is one of the reasons why I wanted
to leave the suburban area, because like there you talked

(26:30):
about doing it, but the kids that actually moved out,
we're like, no, we gotta We're execute here for a reason,
you know, So like where's the nearest punk house because
we're moving in there as quickly as possible, and then
like um, and then yeah, and then like we just
have to make bands. And then also Isaac from Modest
Mouse showed up around that exact time, and he was

(26:51):
just making this totally bizarre music on an unplugged electric
guitar with like a helmet on and into like essentially
performance are Yeah, it was, and it was annoying. It
was a really annoying performance. He got. I mean, he
basically got kicked out of a house for just being
annoying people like you can get out of your dude,
which was great for him because he left that house,

(27:14):
went back to is Akua, which is where the band
is from, and hold up in his parents shed. They
live in like a trailer on this beautiful like plot
of land out by the mountains, and then they built
this really nice shed that he lived in. Um and uh.
He wrote all of the early Modest Mouse songs that
were like I remember when he hadn't seen him in

(27:36):
like months, and he played me this tape he had
made and I was like, oh my god, like you
just changed into a person that makes music, like not
not just like goofy, like just but like these beautiful
songs in lyrics that no one else could really write.
And I was like, it was incredible. Anyways, he showed
up around that time and we became friends, and he

(27:57):
he was into all that, like he had gone to
d C and like stayed a positive force and all
this stuff. So amazing. Yeah, it was that's how we
became friends. I mean when he told me he stayed there,
I was like, are you kidding me, Like you're rat
here's this guy? Well, and I think it's when you
when you trace it back to like basically you know,
most of the bands, I don't care what genre, as
long as it existed sort of in the independent space. Yes,

(28:19):
you can almost always trace it back to like either
punk or hardcore or like maybe metal. You know, those
are all the common roots where it's just like oh yeah,
of course I like seven seconds, or of course I
like this that led me to this thing that I
am doing now. And I think that's where you can
always kind of tell to like if it was saying like,
say you meet a band later and that band in

(28:40):
your band seemed kind of different, you can always kind
of feel it if they didn't come from like a
punk absolutely round, like there's just something like, oh, we're
just there's something missing here from in the way that
we're interacting and no judgment, but like just different, it's different,
absolutely yeah, yeah, yeah. If you're cut from the same cloth,

(29:01):
you can immediately just be like oh yeah. Within within
ten minutes, you're already figuring out like oh yeah, like
we're obviously gon be friends forever. Fine, I'll see you
in a couple of years and they'll be like fine,
yeah yeah. And I you know, Isaac was like that.
So at the same time he you know, when he
started um really really doing monest Moles as a as
an actual band, I had joined that band as well,
So I was like in Death Wish Kids and Modest

(29:22):
Mouse at the same time, and um, and that was
weird but also really fun and it didn't matter, yeah,
didn't yeah, because everything was was you know, pseudo serious,
where I was like, oh, yeah, we're serious about the
music and playing shows and stuff like that. But it's like,
you know what, I guess this, this isn't what I'm
gonna be doing in ten years or whatever. Well there's
no I mean, that is what you're gonna be doing.

(29:43):
That is what you're gonna be doing. But you're like, yeah,
there's no like you know, commercial, like it's gonna breakthrough
or yeah, And we didn't think that we would be
doing it in ten years for sure. And also that
was and I'm always really kind kind of like probably
self conscious about this, but I remember kids hanging or
like people hanging that we're like, you know but like punks,

(30:04):
you know, like fucking moss icon, like you know, butt
patches and like just like whatever. And it was like
they'd be at parties with a bunch of nineteen year
old kids and I'd be like, m I don't want
to be that that. I won't be glad, I won't
be I will go to like I will go to
a house party, stand in the back, not really hang out,

(30:25):
but I want to see this band, so I'm gonna
and that's the only place they're playing. Like then I'll
kind of go and then I'll get out of there.
So I'm kind of like hang out and party with
the kids. Yeah, like that's insane and that's weird and
I don't want to do that. But I was remember
being really conscious of that. So yeah, at that point,
the idea of like growing old and like being a
part of like the music scene didn't seem feasible to me, Like,

(30:49):
you know, like I would still believe in the same
things I believed him, but the idea of just hanging
around as what seemed like very old. Hey, part of
the interruption, But I have a super fun podcast want
to tell you about. A friend of mine is working
on it, and uh, you know, not everything needs to
be senator around, uh, you know, like the punk and
hardcore scene. This podcast is not centered around that, but

(31:09):
it is something that you will probably enjoy. James Kennedy.
He is a DJ music producer and if you are
a reality TV head, vander Pump Rules, I've watched a
few episodes. It's fun but he has a podcast called
It's Not About the Podcast with James Kennedy, and basically
he does this super super fun idea where you know,
he has some guests on I'm gonna name some names

(31:32):
that frankly I don't know who they are, but that
does not mean anything because this is not my world
that I travel in. But he's had people like you know,
the Blame, Heartthrob, Black Elvis and legendary house DJ DJ Irene.
But what he does with his guests is that sometimes
he you know, makes music live and they kind of
collaborate on stuff. I've listened to a few episodes and
I'm like, hey, man, for someone who has no talent

(31:53):
within this particular genre of music, I look at this
and I'm like, it's really cool. And then plus he
has you know, really in depth interviews not too dissimilar
to what we do here. Um. He also has some
freestyle battles, which I've heard one or two of those,
and those are really really funny, because again, that's a
talent to that I don't have, uh not very many
of my friends do, so it's interesting to kind of
watch that play out in real time. And then he

(32:15):
also he loves space, and he likes to have space
trivia to test guest knowledge of space and aliens. It's
super fun that that's the whole point of this podcast.
It's fun, but do not miss a single episode. Subscribe
to It's not about the podcast on Stitcher, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Himalaya,
which is a new podcast player, or basically anywhere you
listen to podcasts. All right, it's not about the podcast.

(32:36):
Super fun, check it out. You know. It also struck
me too that you know as the because you know,
I'm not gonna go like chronological order in regards to
all the bands you played in and be like, oh yeah,
tell me about you know, all the records that you did.
So I'm gonna kind of jump around here. But you know,
as the um, you know, as the business started to
become more of a focus with you know, modest mouse,

(32:56):
emergency devils like all these things like you know, getting
signed a you know subpod, been putting out a lot
of records. Um, you strike me as a person that
I didn't really care about that Like you were were
you ever? I mean, you were involved in business decisions
as most bands are. Whether everybody kind of collectively talks
about it, But did you care for that side of
the business at all? No, No, I hated it. Okay,
I'm still I'm still bad about it. I mean we're

(33:19):
sitting here in in a business that I own with
my partner, um, and I'm still I still would rather
just do the creative the work. Yeah. Um so yeah, No,
I was terrible about that, always terrible about it. I mean,
I think towards the latter part of Modest Mouse, when
I realized I was leaving, Um, I really that's when

(33:42):
I started learning a little bit more about it because
I had to figure out how to separate myself financially
from the band, and there was there were some complications
that to deal with with that, and um, I learned
a lot in that time period. Was the first time
I have my own lawyer and had you know, um
really dug into that at all. Um I'm still yeah,

(34:04):
is it is? It? Is it one of those things
where it's just because the because you know that there
are people where it's like everybody kind of plays a
role in the band, and like you know, usually it
kind of weirdly defaults to like the lead singer being
the one that books the shows or whatever. And then
like handling the merch money and stuff like that. Um,
not for us. Yeah, so who I mean who for
Meurgency Devils? Who is who is getting a business person

(34:25):
that's d like not even close? Like well, also Cody
is now that person because he and Jared are in
a band called Big Business that tours relentlessly and they
do everything themselves and it's just like you know, so
they he by default kind of learned how to exist
as a band that yeah, and so he's actually really

(34:45):
good at it now too. But Derek from day one
has been like, I will tour manage this band if
you don't. I mean we always had Ourfred Gabe who
would tour with us and stuff. Um. But you know, Derek,
you got it right away, the business side and everything
about it right away, right yeah. And just like yeah,
as long as we have that, like we're we're cool.

(35:05):
Like you can you can ask us questions and we'll
say like, oh that's a cool show to pleasure, right,
but everything else we trust you. Yeah exactly. Um. It
was good. I mean it's great. It's great to have
someone that's like savvy about that in the band. Um,
because again, there were at least three of us at
all times that that weren't that worked, right. Um. And
so you know, as you were kind of picking through

(35:28):
the the idea of like, Okay, well, you know, I'm
gonna get my you know, high school degree and do
all this sort of stuff, did you was there any
other vision you had in regards to like, oh, like
here's what I'm gonna do as like a career, Like
here's what you know, I really like math or whatever,
you know, like there I was thinking about going to
South Sound south Sound Community College because I didn't have

(35:48):
the grades to get into Evergreen and those were the
two schools that were in Olympia, and so if I
was going to move somewhere, it would have been Olympia
out of high school. Um and uh I was so
I thought about that, That's about as far as I got.
And so instead what I did is I had worked
in restaurants as as a high school kid. So UM,

(36:09):
I just continued doing that and eventually became a bartender.
And that's one of the ways that a lot of
bands in Seattle. UM kind of that kind of survived
around the same scene or a group of people. Uh,
A lot of bands survived by working at a place
called the Cha Cha Lounge. UM. When it opened, the
owner hired basically all the kids that had worked at

(36:32):
his restaurant UM, and they were all punk kids or
or you know, yeah, you know, they were basically all
punk its. So UM, we and he let us kind
of go. He did. He would always say like I
don't want to hear I don't want to get a
phone call about who needs to cover what shift? Like
this is on you, you guys figure it out. Everyone
needs I need to bartenders every night. You're you're responsible

(36:55):
for dealing with all of this. And he left, He
basically laughed. I mean he would check in and make
sure things were right, of course, but we took the
responsibility to make sure that that place, which was really
busy UM was always staff properly, was always like running
properly UM. And I think I don't want to speak
for all the bartenders that worked there, but I would
say that there's a certain amount of pride around it

(37:17):
that I would say, So yeah, people cared a lot
about making sure because they also knew that, you know,
like Sam Jane from Love Is Laughter and link Um
worked there, and so he was always going on tour
been breadwell from band of Horse's work there. He was
always he was bad. It was bad, and he was
dying around waiting for shifts even though he was way
down the line, and um, it was annoyed a crap

(37:40):
at it, and you're like, dude, he didn't put at
the time. He's so charming and it's like obnoxious because
he's like super handsome and charming, and then he would
just sit around charming whatever bartender out of their shift
basically and like, um, but whatever. Anyways, there are a
lot of bands and and so we we allowed each
other the space to go on tour by covering and
everything else. Yeah, that's InCred because I mean that uh,

(38:01):
I mean it sounds like like a communal space in
this in the way that's like, oh yeah, you know,
we're putting on shows together and it's like, oh yeah,
you gotta bring the p a, you gotta make sure
that this thing is covered, and like, that's just amazing
that you were given that latitude. It's totally amazing, and
I think that's one of the reasons why we took
pride in it. And we loved our We love the owner.
I mean, he was great to us in a million ways,
and um, we wanted the business to do well, and

(38:23):
we wanted you know, we wanted to run properly, and
we didn't want it to go away, right, Yeah, when
you feel like you trip into something that is uh
exciting and vibrant and you're like, yeah, we don't want
this to go away. So like we had to protect
this whatever way we can exactly. I mean it was
also the way that I survived well murder murders, I
can't I can never see our name. Um, while that

(38:43):
band went on tour because we weren't making we only
made money to sustain the band barely. I mean we
would we were basically, yeah, sustaining the band, I think
is right. It's not like he would come home. It's
not like he would come home being like all right, cool,
we can you know, we can pop it, you know,
a piece and be like yeah, maybe here's like a
couple hundred bucks, but like, clearly you're gonna land and

(39:06):
go right back into your shifts. It was only our
last two tours where we made any money, and it
was on the last tour that we did where we
had kind of announced that we were breaking up. Um,
we made I think we made each like three grand
or something and really doing the whole time interesting and
that was a big deal, Like it was such that
was like, you know, I mean, it was literally like

(39:27):
getting like a trust fund or something. Right, You're like,
I do not know what to do with three thousand
dollars that I made from this band. Just yeah, exactly,
That's exactly how we felt, or at least how I felt,
I want, you know, but like, yeah, I very much
felt that way. That's interesting, I mean because most, you know,
many people would would look at the trajectory of the
band and see the sort of logical steps of the
you know, because I mean, In Name and Blood was

(39:47):
definitely a record that you know, quote unquote broke through
and not to the extent of w It's like, obviously
you can play radio and stuff like that, but you
guys could play you know, eight cap venues and like
do reasonably well in most places. Maybe I'm just I'm
so myopic because I'm thinking about what I witnessed in
southern California, Like, you guys always killed it down here.
L A was a good city for us to play.
It always was so um and it's not I mean,

(40:09):
for the most part we were playing three D you know,
and like and that was great, you know, I mean
to us, it didn't like the idea of selling out
a three hundred. Captaine was like, yeah, so like you know,
we were we were doing great. And then yeah, occasionally
in bigger cities we could play slightly bigger places. We
played the Middle East on our last tours, the first
time we ever played the Middle East. Things like that.

(40:33):
So but that was also that was that tour that
we made. So and did you you know, as you
were kind of experiencing these um you know, the the
the connective tissue of like, okay, you know we're gonna
put a seven inch, We're to put out a full
angth like as you start to have these little mile markers,
um when for you did it kind of become like,
oh wow, like this is much bigger than obviously I

(40:55):
ever anticipated this thing being. I mean, it doesn't have
to be that crystalline moment of like you're walking out
of stage and be like, oh wow, we've made it,
because that doesn't mean anything, but where it just it
kind of switched off to you where it was like, wow,
this band is pretty important to some people. Yeah, you know,
I mean, I I think I kind of. I don't

(41:15):
know how much I fully realized that in Murderer City Devils,
like I never, I don't know. I always thought it
was like um flukey or something like. I didn't, I never,
I never feeling also I did. I definitely didn't realize
the the way people some people felt about that band

(41:38):
until we got back together. So that was when I
actually noticed that there was some people out there who
still cared, which was weird enough, and cared a lot um.
But with Modest Mouse, I definitely there was h there
were moments of like, oh my god, what's happening. This
is the weirdest thing because they were already a big

(41:59):
band when I read joined After we Sea Devil's broke up,
so I rejoined Monest Mouse and UM, they had already
become a big band totally by big that was like
one thousand to two thousand theaters, UM making a weird
amount of money because they had the best record deals
ever on up and UM selling like, you know, two
hundred thousand copies of their records. They were big. Yeah, absolutely,

(42:23):
But when UM Good News came out, that was a
different thing. And I think, you know it was just
pushed into this. I mean, yeah, it's like what once
you break into the you know, mainstream radio world where
it's like, you know, your songs are played in malls
across the country, where it's just like yeah, whoa uh okay,
Like I don't know, I don't know how to like

(42:45):
absorb that coming from what your experiences. I remember, So
we used to um uh. We used to end almost
always are monest mouse tours in the Midwest or or
on the East coast. For some reason, we would like
never end on the West coast, and so we would
um that my guitar tech and I would drive the

(43:06):
equipment truck back. Um for a little money, we can
make a little yeah, you know, so we'd like race
home in our equipment truck. So um. I remember one
night driving like across how do you even know, like
Wyoming or something somewhere just somewhere in the middle of nowhere,

(43:27):
and we're like trying to get a station in on
the radio, and like through this scratchy little station we
heard float on come on and it was like, oh
my god, what the hell is this is insane? And
so yeah, and there were a few moments like that.
You know, um, but that's to me, that's when I
was like, oh my god, like, this is a different

(43:48):
type of thing than what I've ever done before, right, So,
and I presume because of that, you were also thrust
into completely weird and awkward press situations, like you know,
just like Okay, yeah, you're gonna play the back of
this restaurant because like, you know, these are the radio
lenders or whatever. Do you have any of that stick
out to you that are just like and not even
so much like, oh it's stupid I did this, but

(44:10):
more so from the perspective of, like, yo, this is
so weird that yeah, you know what, modest males didn't
do that as much as a lot of bands would.
And I think part of it was because Isaac was
just like, I'm not gonna do this, not doing it, Like,
he was pretty hardline about what he would and would
not do, and it kind of had a well, I

(44:31):
mean an animosity towards press. Absolutely that was definitely a
thing that exists for sure, and so I think that like, um,
you know, he tried to avoid that stuff. We're getting
our pictures taken like NonStop, which drove drove me not
I hate I literally hate having my picture taken so much.
So the idea of that was like starting to actually

(44:53):
like I gotta stop this. Yeah, but yeah we didn't.
Thankful you didn't have to do a lot of that.
Next wind I was in, we were always doing stuff
like yeah right, and it was like not even you know,
it's kind of like to half sell a single, you know,
like just like some transactional relationships, just constantly and like UM,

(45:14):
which was fine, and it actually it built up a
lot of goodwill with radio stations so that when we
came out with UM, a song like on our the
second record I did with them UM, which did well
on alternative radio, the radio station, we're like, we've been
reading for you guys. And part of that is because
like Nathan and UM, Matt the bass player would always

(45:35):
show up to every one of the like acoustic jam
things totally would always play every weird show for every
weird any opportunity. Yeah, and you know, I mean I
look back on it and it's like, okay, yeah, I
mean we all knew what we were doing and it
wasn't super fun, but at that point, yeah, it actually
did help us. It's weird normally those things, Yeah, very helpful. Yeah,

(45:56):
but it's like there is that notion of like, oh, yes,
like we're all part we're all playing this game together.
But when you do, you know, out of the whatever
twenty opportunities that you pursue, like two of them end
up being like, oh, you actually wanted us to be
here and do this, you know, like as opposed to
like this is part of your job. And so those
are the ones that you start to see, like you
said that, well they're rooting for you and yeah, yeah,
Um the what was it? What has been your relationship

(46:20):
with with touring? Because clearly you've done it on every
level imaginable, from you know, playing in front of you know,
negative four people to you know, playing in front of
thousands of people. Um, and those are two completely different experiences.
Did you always I guess like being on the road.
Did you like that experience? Okay? Um, so it's always
very uh I mean I kind of look at it

(46:41):
like when I was a kid, when prior to being
like a prior to Mercy Devil's breaking up, or even
a couple of years into that band, really, um I
did I just wanted to be on It was the
only thing I ever wanted to do. I was so
exciting that I got to do it. Um and and
I just was thrilled. Then that started to kind of

(47:04):
I started to feel the grind because we toured a
lot constantly and so um, you you know, so three
or four years in, it's you start kind of like
the grind of it starts to wear you down a
little bit. But it's fine, You're still young and you're going. Um.
It was for me when Modest Mouse went from vans
to buses was when I just no longer wanted to

(47:26):
tour at all. Like I just didn't. I hated busses.
I've always hated busses. Um. I was talking about this
with someone the other night. Actually, like there was a
point in my life where I love to drive. So
I would just drive and I'd stare out a window
for eight hours a day and um, and it was
really freeing and I didn't do anything. I listened to music,

(47:50):
you know, and I talked to a friend in the
front seat, and I just watched America pass me by.
And then as soon as that was taken away, and
it is just like I went to sleep outside of
a club and I woke up outside of a club
and I just don't That's not what I wanted. Like
what I wanted was to like experience the feeling of

(48:13):
freedom that you get from just going forward totally seeing
what's around you. And and so that that marked a
very distinct point for me where it was like a
page had been flipped, right, I don't I hate this.
And then obviously when my daughter was born, that was
that was difficult to tour. Um, it became difficult to tour.

(48:34):
But where it really became difficult to tour was when
she turned around three and my wife and I, UM
my wife at the time, and I separated and then
divorced UM and I realized, you know that I kind
of knew, but I realized, like I have to build
a home for my child now, you know, like I'm

(48:55):
I'm moving out in like I'm always you know, like
I've had I've always had split cut sitee with with
and we have a great relationship her mom and I, UM,
but but yeah, I realized, like the most important thing
in the entire world is the home that I create
for my daughter and I and the relationship that we have,

(49:16):
which has now changed because of our you know, our
family kind of breaking up of course. So um, that
was I just couldn't focus really on yeah a lot
the transient lifestyle. So I toured for a couple of
months after that, but not not much longer, and um,
and then it was like, oh my god, what am
I going into? Yeah, exactly. Well it's funny too, because

(49:37):
it's like that, you know, most people could look at
your your your trajectory and playing in bands and then
you know, recording bands and like all of to me obviously,
because I know the players that are involved, it's like,
oh yeah, all all your moves make sense, you know.
But like, you know, I'm sure a kid like being like, oh, dude,
how do you get into like, you know, producing and
like playing in bands like you're looking for advice. I'm

(49:59):
sure you're just like, dude, like, don't even remotely look
at my roadmap because it doesn't make any sense. It doesn't,
it doesn't. I mean, So, I like I was always like,
so you know how I was saying, like Derek was
the one that was like the business savvy one in
that band, and and you know there's always that personality
type like you were saying, um, and I think there's
always like the studio nerd and the point you know,

(50:22):
and you might have a few, but there's one that's
like a real studio nerds and that was me and
I was so I was the one that was more
involved was setting up the recordings and finding the figuring
all that. Everyone was involved, but it was I, you're
extremely pas I was extremely passionate about it. Um. And
so I was already And I had some friends that
were producers, a guy named Phil X from Seattle, and

(50:43):
like just people who are really good at what they did,
and producers and engineers, I should say, because that's the
world that I came up in as producers who knew
how to engineer totally yeah people. Yeah, it's not just
like the the weird old school music industry role of
just like oh yeah, here's an engine near he knows
that a press buttons and I'm the producer and it's like, well,

(51:04):
you can't do both. And there are a lot of people,
I think, either because they don't want to engineer anymore
or whatever. Um, I get it and whatever makes a
great record. But that's the world that I came up in,
was the hybrid. And it's the same now, you know,
it's totally. It's um in a world where everyone is
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(51:26):
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(51:47):
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(52:07):
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(52:28):
Apple Podcasts and wherever you get your podcasts. I we
we produce podcasts, so we we do the everything yea
from a like engineer, and we all know how to
you know, to run a session in that sort of
thing and it put and so that's that's the world
that we all came from here. And then that was

(52:50):
the world that I also came from with music. So
I left monest Mouse when I was thirty one or something,
and um, I was like, okay, well they bee I
should start Maybe I should uh own a restaurant because
because that was your experience. Yeah, And so I hooked
up with this guy and um our thirty um uh

(53:12):
table or not like thirty cap Southern Italian cafe turned
into like a bunch of money from doctors who were
putting in like millions of dollars into this giant Italian
restaurant that I was going to be the general manager of.
And it was like huh no, like I can't do that.
I don't know how to do that. So that just
it's just like exploded like much quick than you. The

(53:33):
person I was with was really good at securing capital,
so that happened in a way that freaked me out,
like and so I was like, no, okay, not doing that.
And UM, finally I was like, you know what, I'm
gonna go to audio school. It's what I wanted to do.
And I found the school I wanted to go to
and I moved there. It was an outside of Phoenix,
and um, I lived there for a year and I

(53:53):
did that and came back to Seattle. UM. But when
I came back, it was like two thousand uh seven
and studio work was drying. Music industry changed a little bit,
it did, It had changed quite a bit, and it
hadn't just changed in that year, but obviously those couple
of years between two thousand and six and two thousand

(54:14):
eight were a big deal. Um and uh, basically I'm
competing with like Phil Who's Who's it? Like a world
famous record producer and it's one of my favorite producers.
And I can't you know, there's no way, so I
that's I started working at a UM a HIV aids
UM clinic for a while and then UM, my friend

(54:38):
Gabe brought me on tour to do sound and was like, look,
you're not doing anything, and I was like I never
really thought about live sound, but I guess I'll do
it because I need a job. Yeah, and so I
my first job was doing monitors for m I, which
was amazing. Yeah, it was really getting thrown into the fire,
you know, like learned everything. So that was incredible. Um

(55:02):
and then and then I started doing UM. Then I
started doing front of house for cold Board Kids, and
that's how I met them and that and then I
moved here and their guitar player quit and they needed
a producer for their record, so they asked me to
do both and right right, yeah, yeah, and then you yeah,
you're able to piece it together from that perspective. Um,
the you know, the the idea of you know, kind

(55:25):
of what you were talking about, where the the podcast
world and the you know d I Y you know,
punk and hardcore sing like it's it's like I said,
it's so it could every day it impresses me where
it's just like oh wow, the connective tissues or that,
because podcasts are the same thing where it's just like, yeah,
did you start up in your garage and like just
plug in my kid like figure it out and then
like eventually, like if the idea is cool, enough like

(55:46):
people will start to come to it. Absolutely, And so
how did you, I guess, kind of get attracted to that,
to this world that you know you essensibly existed now, Well,
so I always loved podcasts, um, from pretty early on.
And I you know, but in the radio. You know,
I left public radio and podcasts and they helped me

(56:08):
get through so many tours and many long drives right
right absolutely, So, um, like you, I wanted to do
an interview based show, which I never ended up doing,
but I this, I had this dream of doing a show,
um and uh, it was like my pipe dream kind of.
So I was when I left Colbork kids, I was
doing like independent producing and production, which basically means you

(56:29):
just do or sorry in co writing, which basically means
you sit in a room with someone that's like mildly famous,
struggling try and like gets or something rough soul crushing,
and it's in there like a million people in l
A doing it right now as we speak. And it
was I just I knew this is not happening, so

(56:50):
I was gonna have to do something else. Um. And
right at that moment um this my friend sent me
a and or a uh the notice for The bulls Eye,
which is a public radio program produced in l A
by a company called Maximum Fund. We're looking for a producer.

(57:12):
And the first thing that I noticed. She knew that
I was just super into radio and podcasts and stuff,
but this was still like a dream. I did not
think that someone would let me into this world at all. So, um,
the first thing I noticed is that there was nothing
prohibitive about it about the job ad you know, like
I didn't. There's no college requirement, there's no there's no

(57:33):
blockers for you. Yeah, like, oh yeah, that's fine. Hand. Yeah,
so I can at least try, like I can't. Well,
like if if if if I walked in there, like well,
you know, we asked you to have like a degree
and you don't have one. M'd be like, yeah, that's
a bummer. I should probably leave. But like the but
I went in, I met Colin who you know, and um,
he didn't want to hire me, but the host Jesse

(57:53):
did so he overruled Colin and they hired me, which
I'll never let call him forget. But so uh, I
got thrown into an absolute like boot camp for podcast production. Um.
From the moment I walked in the door. It was Okay,

(58:14):
you're the only producer of what is like a fresh
air for young people type show. That's like the idea
they want that. So you're gonna be booking the show,
which is a full time job. Totally bring up, bring
us guests, make sure. Yeah, so then you're so once
you book the guests, you're gonna get it. You're gonna
schedule them, you're gonna get him in, You're gonna record them,

(58:34):
you're gonna prep the host. You're going to although Jesse
does most of his own prep, but but you do
some of that. Then you're going to cut both of
the interviews down. You're going to write the script, you're
going to record the video, cut the video, assemble the show,
mixed the show, upload the show, and uh and score
the show and um, all of that every week. So

(58:57):
you have your show to get out every single week,
and then you have these ongoing things like booking and
that's so that was a lot and what I realized,
so cut, you know, just cutting down to uh hour
long interviews is every week, and oh and also producing
a c segment that was like as creative as you

(59:18):
want to make it. So, um, just those sort of
like this was a job where, believe me, I've seen
many podcasts where there would be seven producers doing this
show and they there wouldn't need to be, but there
would be there. Oh my god, to be insane, to
be insane, and everyone would be rushing around trying to
show everyone that they're actually working on something, and nothing
would be getting done. It would be crazy. But what

(59:39):
I got was a real just hit the ground running,
like you're you're gonna have to figure this out, Like
you just have to, Like you don't like MPR needs
their show and they need a fifty nine seconds on
the dot and they need you to do all that.
Like you're going to have to figure it out. And
Colin was so rad because he would help me when

(01:00:01):
he saw that I was like really freaked out and struggling,
like I just have no idea what to do here. Um,
But for the most part, he just let me sweat
it out and um and and I learned a lot
in a short amount of time. That's amazing. Yeah, and
so that yeah, you got you got thrown into that
and then liked, did you kind of did you see
the parallels between It's like, oh yeah, like this is yeah,
for sure, for sure. And when I really saw them,

(01:00:22):
UM was when so I had met my partner Jane,
who's were in business and we're also like, you know, uh,
romantically involved or so. Um. We we met at a
Max fun uh benefit or some donor dinner or something, um,
and it was totally like the last seat um available,

(01:00:45):
And I walk in late and we sit next to
each other and start talking about our kids and radio
and stuff. And she had worked at this American Life
for ten years um and was just and she is
to this day who I think is the most absolute,
most creative and talented person in this industry. UM. So
I feel very lucky to work with her. UM. So
we would hang out. We started dating, and so we're

(01:01:06):
hanging out like you know, just like on summer evenings
on my back porch or whatever, and we kind of
we're thinking about what we felt like the world of podcasting,
at least in l a kind of needed. And we
may or may not have been right, but we kind
of settled on we should make stuff. That's what we
like to do. We like to make things, So how

(01:01:27):
are we going to do that? So we found we
look for a space and we found it, we put
it together. You know, we didn't frame the studios out,
but everything else we did do and um, you know,
it felt a lot like starting a band, where you
know that thing of like we're makers, like we we
do things like we want to do so if we

(01:01:49):
want to be in a band, that we're going to
figure out exactly all the steps you have to take, right,
So then that's kind of how That's where I definitely
saw the parallels and then, um, there are there are more.
Obviously I definitely felt it then where I was like, yes,
like we're just going to do this. Yeah, we're not
asking permission. Nope, not at all. There's no such a

(01:02:09):
good way to say it, like we're not we're not
asking permission, Like we're just going to do it. There's
no Yeah, there's no gate keepers like you know, like yes,
of course there's s gatekeepers were it's just like, oh yeah,
Like the popularity to show exists on like seven million
different factors. But the fact that you can appeal to
you know, three hundred people, You're just like that's great.
If I'm playing a three person show, that's unbelievable totally,
you know, And I think the thing we had to.

(01:02:31):
We had to learn a lot and we're learning a
lot and what you know, a lot of where it is.
Jane's far more business savvy than I am, Um, but
I think we're both learning a lot in that regard.
And Um, that was the side of it, that where
we realized, like, Okay, we have a lot to learn here,
and that's going to take up more of our time
than we originally thought because you were a four person

(01:02:53):
operation here. So when we're doing a show like The Dream,
you know, we're all hustling, we're working nice weekends. Yeah,
so you know what the big lesson I think for
us is like, oh my god, we're gonna be in
meetings like, you know, four hours a day and that's
going to really cut into our ability to actually make

(01:03:15):
these shows. And so that's why we're gonna have to
work nights and weekends and that kind of thing. And
you know that's so that's been that's been a eye
opening experience totally. Well it's it's not like it when
anybody starts to their creative pursuit, no matter what it
is that they're like to do. You know what, I
can't wait to be I can't wait to be like
a boss. It's like no, no one, no one. Especially

(01:03:37):
when you come from the world that we do, it's like,
oh yeah, like I can't wait to rule over people.
But there is there is there's something about, like if
you're touring and you have like a small crew and
you need to get like there's something about working with
a relatively small group of people in a situation where

(01:03:59):
the only thing it matters is that you have to
like get it done. Like we would never make our
employees like work until you know n o clock and
iron is um crazy, But I just mean, like the
general attitude is that if we're going to do something,
we want to do it together, and we're gonna do
it together and we're gonna work really hard. And yeah,
there there is a very similar feeling I think. Yeah. Absolutely. Um.

(01:04:21):
The last thing I want to have before I let
you go is the so you know you are a father,
Like you mentioned you only one child? Right, Okay, yeah,
oh there she is. Uh so the you know I
I have also have a seven year old son. Uh
well I know you don't have a son, but thank yes, congratulations, yes,
yes we we we've got their children children years ago. Yeah, exactly,
seven years ago, we were roughly experiencing the same thing.

(01:04:42):
Do you have more than one kid? No? Just one?
Keeping it keep it at a one? Yeah, fair enough,
That's how I feel. Yeah, But the you know, I
often reflect on the idea where it's like, okay, here's this,
you know, here's us getting raised through this lens of
you know, radical politics, Um, all these things that are
you know, not only progressive like you mentioned, but you know,

(01:05:03):
contrary to most of the world at large, and then
putting yourself in a very normal position of being a parent,
and like, you know, how has your I mean, I'm
sure in many respects, the your lens has grown wider
in regards to either you know, your empathy, your feelings.
Like you know, once you have a child, it's like,

(01:05:23):
you know, you cried everything or whatever. But um, you know,
what have you noticed about just kind of the the
idea of like, okay, I'm I'm raising my daughter through
this lens of you know, essentially just being you know,
the punk and hardcore kid. Um. Yeah, I've the big
thing for me has been trying to still allow her

(01:05:43):
to make her own choices, and we're a ways away
from that. So it's you have like it requires obviously patients,
because you have to like kind of white knuckle it
and hope that this isn't the wrong decision that she
shouldn't be But like, for instance, being vegan, Like I've
been vegan since I was sixteen years old, and um,

(01:06:04):
everyone asked me if I raise Marie vegan, I'm like, nope,
I don't raise Maria anyway. When she's at my house,
she generally eats vegan or close to it, because she
likes eggs and cheese and stuff so um, because that's
what we eat, you know, and I think that it's
good for kids to eat what the family eats, you know.
And when she's at her mom's um, or we're not

(01:06:26):
necessarily at her mom's, but like at her famili's or whatever,
she'll have a hamburger, she'll have whatever. And to me,
it's like, well, I don't want to politicize food for
her right now. She can she will. I know that
she will one day be introduced to factory farming and

(01:06:47):
some of those concepts that are um why I originally
became vegan. So but I don't want to politicize it
right now. I want her to actually, I want to
foster a love for food and a healthy love for
food relationship, especially because she's a girl. Because she's a girl,
and I don't want her growing up feeling self conscious
about food in anyway. So I can't. I can't stop

(01:07:11):
that from happening, but I don't want to make it worse,
or at least want to try not to make it worse.
So that and then they're the other thing with that
and kind of with all of this is like I
got to find that and just like getting into music
playing guitar, but but not just being the person that

(01:07:31):
plays guitar, being the person that like realizes that playing
guitar means that I get to make songs, which means
I get to be in a band, which means I
get to go on you know, and time me to
do that. Like I fought for those things and it
was the funnest fight in the entire world. I mean,
it was like the best thing ever was that I got.

(01:07:52):
I chose that, Yeah, you found mine. It was it
was independence. The independence was wrapped up in it. And
I want her to have those moments of discovery, whatever
they are for her, you know, and whether it's political,
although it's great to be a parent at a point

(01:08:14):
where like now, where you can talk where your child
comes home and starts talking about how boys and girls
are separating on the playground, and then you can discuss
gender and the fluidity of it and transgender and you
can actually just talk to them in a straightforward way
about it, and then they can go to school and
instead of it being like it's actually reinforced, you know,

(01:08:38):
it's like she there are gay parents, there are you know,
so these these ideas are reinforced. And I think that
that makes me feel very lucky as a parent right now.
There are plenty of things that make me feel very unlucky.
But those things politically speaking, like, um, yes, those things
we will but those are well teach those and of course,

(01:09:02):
but the core values right but um but those are
treating other people the way you want to be treated
and basical kindness and respect, you know what I mean.
That's simple stuff. So like, um, anyways, the decisions, you know,
and when it comes to music, when it comes to
like the way she eats, like I said, like different
things like that, what she decides she wants to be into,

(01:09:23):
she is into. I want her to have those genuine
moments of discovery that not only did I have, but
that inspired my entire life, some of which was planned,
some of which was totally random, because I still got
to discover new things in my thirties of course, you know.
So it's a it's a it's a really beautiful trend

(01:09:44):
of thought, just because the idea is that, like I
think that, um, you know, people of a certain certain
generation whatever you call it, you know, thirties up to
you know, late fifties, where it's like when you've been
exposed to counterculture in many different respects, you realize that
that it is your Like once you are in that
position of being a parent, you're just like it's your
job to show your kid just a bunch of stuff,

(01:10:05):
like and like and I don't realistically like I know that,
Like my parents didn't view it from that perspective. Like
I'm thirty years old, but it's like my parents weren't like,
you know, doing all the stuff that I do. And
it's not like I'll run around to soccer games and
like you know, keep your kids busy. It's just like
oh yeah, like you know, go go to this thing,
like go to a basketball game, go to just to
get exposed to all this stuff and then you'll never
find out until you actually see the reaction from your kid.

(01:10:28):
Were just like, oh, they're into that totally. I mean,
and and those moments of discovery that you allow them
to have are also like the most rewarding, like totally
like heart heartbreaking, lee wonderful moments. Right parent, UM, we
were doing, uh, I'm so, I'm working on a podcast

(01:10:50):
that's part of a big multimedia UM. I don't even
know what you would call a large scale project, a
large scale multimedia project, UM, talking about poverty. UM. And
the podcast has to do with poverty and education, specifically
poverty and writing. And we were interviewing professor at U

(01:11:10):
c l A the other day Pedro Negaro. Awesome, Yes
you do you know him? I've heard his name. Yes,
that's so awesome. He's a He was unbelievable and I
could just sit and listen to him forever. UM. He
said this thing that as a parent, it made I
don't know it really hit me, but he was like,

(01:11:31):
you know, when I was a kid, my dad didn't
we grew up in Brooklyn. It wasn't gentrified. My dad
didn't you know, he was a working class guy, didn't
have a lot of money I'm paraphrasing here, and but
he was very He wasn't very well educated, but he
was very well read. And one of the things that
he would do and him and my mom would do
is on Saturdays, after we were done with our chores,

(01:11:51):
they would say, Okay, go to the library. And we
would have to spend at least a couple of hours
every Saturday at the library, um with this librarian, learning
about new books, all this thing. But they forced us
to do this, you know, and he was like, it
was the greatest thing ever. I know there are different
kids that are going to react to that differently, of course,

(01:12:12):
but I love that about that generation. I love the
idea of saying like I don't I don't care if
they want to go. This is like, yeah, you got
to broaden your horizon. Go and like, you know, we'll
know pretty fast if they really hate it right now.
But like this, but sometimes you have to I don't
know if this is your experience that you I mean,

(01:12:34):
we have the kids the same age, so yeah, um,
sometimes you do have to like push a little bit
about finding that balance totally totally. It's not like and
you know, you see this with other parents where it's
just like they're trying to you know, relitigate or relive
their own childhood. So it's just like they're trying to
make the child in the you know, a smaller image
of themselves. But you know, on the flip side, on

(01:12:54):
the positive side, is the fact that it's like, yeah,
of course, like you know, you don't feel like doing
karate today, I understand that, but like this is really
good for you, like you you you enjoy it once
you were doing it, But just the concept of like
getting there and like doing all this, it's like, oh yeah,
but it's like yeah, you you have to um, yeah,
your responsibilities is just like oh yeah, I'm gonna show
you a bunch of stuff. Maybe some of this will stick,
maybe some of this won't. I don't I'm not sitting

(01:13:16):
here being like, you know what I really want you
to be into right now. I really want you to
be you know, super into chain of strength when you're
right right, that's a horrible idea. That isn't a good idea. No,
it's not going to do at all. I'll introduce you. Yeah, anyways,
right right, right, But do you are you vegan still
or am I am you raise your kids vegan raising
kids vegetarian? And he and so our our concept was

(01:13:39):
that once he reaches an age where he is like
if he's you know, he's like, I gosh, I can't
I want to have a hamburger. Okay, Like once he
is able to make that choice. Very similar, it's very similar.
But the main connective thing that I wanted to do
is like not again not agree with you as far
as the politicization of you know, the that whole movement,

(01:14:02):
but just the notion of like, you know, animals are food, right,
Like that make that connective tissue because like, did you
see him starting like I'm watching Maria starting just now
to discover that like the idea of like, oh wait
a second, right that yeah, we she started getting into
this television show. We don't watch a lot of TV,

(01:14:22):
but there's a few shows that that I loved, And
there's a show called Master Chef Jr. And I think
they're really good with the kids on that. I think
they're awesome, and like, um, I love the show. I
find it like totally engaging and I love those types
of food shows. And she loves it. But she's starting
to connect certain things about food that she otherwise would

(01:14:43):
be wouldn't. She's always there when I'm cooking and stuff,
but she doesn't. She wouldn't see like they had like
half brains on there or something. The other day. Um,
it was like, you know, it's a big challenge to
try and figure out how to cook with them, and
she was just like, oh my god, like and she
made the connection. But yeah, it's interesting to see him
actually to make that connection. Yeah, because it's at the
end of the day, it's like, I you know, I
don't care what a person decides to arrive to, whether

(01:15:07):
it's like, oh, you know, they're totally vegan that whatever,
Like that's each person's choice. But if you've never even
put thought into the concept of where it comes from,
that's when it's like you're doing yourself a disservice. Well,
it's also so different from when we were kids. I mean,
I know I'm older than you, but like but still,
but you know, it's just the the options for how

(01:15:27):
we get meet and dairy, yeah, are totally different completely,
and so you know that's something I will absolutely teach her,
you know, But but yeah, it's it's very different. Yeah. Anyways, Yeah,
well dude, I really really appreciate hanging out this honestly,
it would really fun. Yeah, thank you, It's my pleasure
of course. Okay, that was Dan Gluccy. We could have

(01:15:53):
talked for probably like no shortage of three hours or so,
but you know, he had a meeting and he had
to go and I but I can tell it was
just that nice, that nice feeling when you're hanging out
with the person and you're like, no, I could keep going, yeah,
yeah this is good, let me into it. So thank
you very much, Jan, and also thank you to my
coworker Jenny Ratlet masked, who hooked this interview up. I

(01:16:13):
know she's not gonna listen to it, but still, well
maybe she will, so thanks Jenny. So what we got
for next week? We have a this is a younger person,
so I want to make sure I'm reflecting all sort
of eras of the Seattle punk and hardcore scene. Uh
Ian Shelton. He plays a band called Regional Justice Center
and he also plays in a band called Seattle's New Gods.

(01:16:34):
It was a awesome chat because he got into the
whole you know, punk and hardcore scene up there. In Seattle,
kind of like after the you know, craziness of the
early two thousands, but you know the bands like Champion
and how that whole scene was exploding up there in Seattle.
So it was very interesting and I loved the chat
and his band is really really good. So that's what
we got next week and until then, please be safe,

(01:16:55):
everybody you've been listening to the jabber Joe podcast network
jaffer Joe Media dot Com. Hi, I'm est Dean. I've
made my life by writing songs like Fireworks by Katie Perry,

(01:17:18):
Super Based by Nicki Minaj, What's My Name by Rihanna,
just the name a few, and now I'm having an
absolute last sharing some of the knowledge that I've learned
with upcoming songwriters on song Land on NBC. I'm excited
to welcome you to a brand new season of song
Land and sung Lance podcast, giving you new insight into

(01:17:39):
the magical art of songwriting. As Toby has some of
the best in the business, and also the pioneers and
the up and comers will be shaping the hits you'll
be listening to for years. We have an amazing roster
of talent this season. I promise you you don't want
to miss one single episode. Don't miss song Land Monday

(01:18:00):
nights at ten nine Central and join us. Your all
song Lens podcasts, available every week after the show, on
the I Heart app or wherever you get your podcasts

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