April 16, 2024 • 58 mins
James Onieal joins us to unpack the rollercoaster of recent airline developments—from unexpected furlough announcements to hiring surges at major carriers like UPS. We explore the emotional and professional impacts of such turbulent times on pilots, emphasizing the critical importance of resilience and strategic career planning.
Show Notes
0:00 Breaking News
6:06 Advice For Pilots Being Furloughed
23:20 Information Without Context
33:38 Furloughed Mindset
42:19 Starting over at age 40?
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Max (00:07):
James O'Neill.
He is the lyrical gangster ofall things aviation, job related.
Welcome back to the show, James.
James (00:16):
Thank
you for having me.
Max (00:18):
The
James (00:18):
Thank you for having me.
Max (00:20):
The airlines have done it.
Somebody has said the F word.
James (00:26):
You know what, the difference between a depression
and a recession is, right?
Max (00:30):
No.
Dylan (00:31):
Uh oh.
James (00:33):
Recession's.
When your neighbor loses their job.
A depression's when you lose yours.
Dylan (00:38):
Ooh,
Max (00:38):
Pilots around the country are shaking in their roper, black, shined up boots.
Nobody
knows what to do.
We've, we've come to you, ourdiamond dog, uh, in the business.
So tell us
James (00:53):
So quick.
So quick poll.
Do you guys think theyshould be panicking?
Dylan (00:59):
Well, I think I,
to put it in context,
Max (01:01):
if you're in the bottom couple percented spirit, I'd be pretty,
I'd be pretty concerned, but,
James (01:09):
All right.
Why would you be concerned?
Max (01:10):
well, there's no need to panic.
Listen, we're pilots.
We don't panic.
We, we react.
So, uh, no one should ever be panicking.
You may be changing your strategy,perhaps your outlook in the business or
maybe what your plan is, but panickingis, uh, not warranted in any sense.
James (01:31):
So this is, there's a lot of stuff going on right now and
there is a lot of news coming outbasically almost daily at this point.
And it's, it's really jerkingpeople around 'cause you're getting.
Basically two weeks ago, I aeroannounces, Hey, we're ceasing operations.
A week later, UPS gets this brand newcontract and they're gonna hire 300 pilots
(01:54):
and they haven't hired anybody effectivelyin the past year and a half, two years.
And then like three days afterthat, spirit's furloughing.
So if you are somebody that this is,this is kind of your first ro I I
get, everyone says, like, you know,Hey, I went through Coronavirus, but
everybody's bailed out for Coronavirus.
So that's not really a, a fair comparator.
(02:14):
That's not, that's not a 2008 recession.
That's not September 11th.
That's not the Gulf War one.
That's not the 87 stock market crash.
That's not deregulation.
And the key difference between everyone of those events that I named
and this event is every one of thoseprevious events, coronavirus the
2008 Great Recession, September 11th,Gulf War one, the 87 stock market
(02:39):
crash passenger demand dropped.
Every single one of those, the furloughswere because passenger demand dropped.
The only number people need to be trackingright now is the TSA passenger numbers.
And if you take a look at them, we areright back to where we were in 2019.
(03:01):
If demand is there, if passengerdemand is there, if people want to
get on airplanes and go flying, thatmeans there's a job for you to find.
2001, there was no job in aviation.
You were, I mean, when I got laidoff in, in 2010, I got turned down
(03:22):
from, uh, a Verizon store for sellingcell phones 'cause they didn't
have enough retail experience.
And I had a flight school turn me down.
'cause I didn't have enough dualgiven I was an instructor at Riddle.
I was a part 61 instructor.
I had flown to two different regionalsat NetJets at that point, and I was on
the safety committee of the Union atNetJets, but I didn't have enough dual
given time, so I couldn't teach in a 1 72.
(03:46):
Now what we're talking aboutis folks are going, I don't
want to go be a regional pilot.
don't want to go to NetJets, Idon't want to go to Flex Jet.
I'm gonna have to wait to get an interviewat United Delta or American United.
Delta and American are onlyhiring for retirements, right?
(04:10):
That's the conversationwe're having right now.
And the reason why people arepanicking is really because for a
majority of the people, they're notgreedy, they're not stupid, they've
just never been through this before.
I.
And so they don't know what to expect.
They don't understand why it's happening,and they don't know what to do Next.
Wheels Up just announced thispast week, Hey, look, we're
(04:33):
stopping new hire classes.
They're saying to people in interviews,Hey, it, you know when you get to a
check ride and, and you bust the maneuverand they go, you have two options.
You can continue to check, right?
Or you can stop.
Yeah.
Wheels Up is, is basically doing the,we can continue the interview, but I
don't have a class date to give you orwe can stop right where we're at, which
is super transparent and amazing that arecruiter would actually say that, right?
(05:02):
I mean there, for the recruiter itwould've been a lot, a recruiter, it'd be
easier to just go through the interviewand go, Hey, let me, um, let me, uh,
let me just kind of run through theshow that way there's no conflict here,
and then we'll deal with it in the end.
So, so people are seeing this news upand down and up and down and up and down
of a little bit of positive and a lotof, bit of negative and a lot of, bit
(05:23):
of negative, gets a lot of people on theinternet whipped up and freaking out.
So they're focusing on whatthey think's gonna happen next
instead of just getting a job.
Dylan (05:35):
Hmm.
Okay.
So James, for those of usthat are listening right now,
that actually are at Spirit.
Which, you know, it, it's hard toknow how many end up pilots will
end up being furloughed becauseof attrition and everything else.
They're saying it's, you know,what, 260 right now, they do have to
take some action right away, right?
(05:58):
talk to those folks for a minute and,and say, okay, if you are actually
potentially on the chopping block,what should I be doing right now?
James (06:05):
Okay, so 2010.
I'm in recurrent ground school,and this is not an exaggeration.
The ground school instructoris handing out the written test
for us to take on the last day.
And all of a sudden you hear, youknow how, like how you go to a
baseball stadium and you have a wave?
Well, instead of people throwingtheir hands up, it was, what the
fuck is this going across the room?
(06:26):
And it was 'cause we all got E,about three quarters of the class
got emails that said you arebeing laid off school instructor
was not told that was happening.
So now he's confused.
He hands the test go, Heyeverybody, just take the test.
Lemme go get some executives, take thetest, hand it in, they come down, right?
So you get that initial shock, youget that initial shot of adrenaline,
(06:46):
that initial shot of cortisol, you'repanicking, your brain is cutting out.
You're going, how am Igonna make my mortgage?
How am I gonna pay downmy student loan debt?
What am I like?
All these thoughts are going through yourhead in that immediate moment because you
weren't like, even at NetJets, we had,you know, spirit has their issues for
different reasons that NetJets did, but.
(07:07):
Basically, at the time I wassitting at home, not flying, right?
We were parking airplanes be, and so you,you kind of had an idea, but there was
all this up and down messaging from the
union and the company that waslike, we might pull it out.
Hey, there were voluntary,uh, voluntary leaves.
There were things folks at the companywere doing, and on the union side,
(07:29):
they were trying to save our jobs.
So look, looking back when you'reoutside of it, you go, Hey, I
was definitely gonna lose my job.
But when you're in the middleof it, you're basically holding
onto as much hope as you can that
by some power vested in me.
Somebody's gonna come in and save theday and and you're gonna keep your job.
So even though in the back of your mind,and then for some folks in the front of
(07:49):
their mind, they, they had an inklingor an indication or a pretty good idea
that they were gonna get laid off.
It still hits you like a ton of brickswhen you actually get the message and you,
'cause were they gonna lay off a hundred?
Were they gonna lay off 700?
So there's some people right now.
That are taking a deep sigh of reliefand going, oh, it was only 260.
That's not me.
(08:11):
And there's somewhere around260 people that are going,
crap, I gotta do something now.
Now we've been working withSpirit folks prior to this.
So there's a lot of guys that arealready a month, 2, 3, 4 months
ago, got the ball rolling, right?
So they're ahead by a certain amount andthen you get the people that have been
kind of surviving on Hopium that, hey,this is all gonna figure itself out.
(08:33):
They're the ones that kind of go intofull on crisis mode, if that makes sense.
Dylan (08:37):
Yeah.
James (08:37):
So, so the first thing you have to do, or that I would
recommend they do, is you have toget your support structure together.
Because what happens is when you gethit with that stress, not to get too
techy or too, um, sciencey with it,but the front or part of your brain,
the executive functioning portionthat just shuts down, you can't make
decisions 'cause you're overwhelmed.
(08:57):
So it could be a husband, itcould be a wife, it could be a
mentor, it could be a friend.
I recommend one max two.
You don't want to go out and get 50people 'cause you're gonna get a bunch of
conflicting opinions, but you need one ortwo people that can hold you accountable
to what you're gonna do every day.
Somebody that calls you at nine inthe morning and makes sure you're
actually getting up outta bed.
Somebody that, and I know thissounds really, really stupid, but
(09:20):
it gets hard to take a shower.
It gets hard to shave your facetwo, three times a week or however
many times a week you shave.
Right?
Um, it gets hard to, toforce yourself to go outside.
Right?
In the United States, anytime you meetsomeone, you get asked three questions.
What's your name?
Where are you from?
What do you do?
(09:40):
Option number three, if youdon't have an answer to that
question, it's a problem, right?
And if you say pilot, peoplego, who do you fly for?
That becomes a complicated questionwhen you're getting laid off.
So a lot of people avoid going outside,they avoid talking to other people.
'cause there's a lot of shame, there's alot of embarrassment that goes into this.
Um, when I got my layoff notice,I hate asking people for help.
(10:03):
I hate it.
Hate it.
I don't want to inconvenience them.
I don't wanna bother them.
I don't want to dump myproblems onto their shoulder.
But the reality is, when you runinto a situation like this, everybody
and their mother wants to help.
But you have to be the firstone to reach out and ask, right?
Because every one of us that has ajob that's not getting laid off right
(10:25):
now has either been laid off before,so we understand what it's like, or
we're sitting there going, shit, ifit was me, I hope somebody would help.
Right?
There's a lot of people trying toput positive vibes into the universe,
'cause they may need some of those tocome back to them here in the future.
So that's, that's step one.
two, um, is to startgathering information.
(10:48):
Uh, LinkedIn is a reallygood resource for that.
Facebook is as well.
And if you just give me, uh, a second,I'll give you the kind of the groups that
I go on, on Facebook in terms of if folkswanna get information or give information.
Um.
But, uh, airline pilotinterview questions and answers.
The guy who's the admin of that groupjust started a post yesterday and said,
Hey, let's help spirit pilots out.
(11:08):
Everybody that's hiring list thecompany name that's hiring, and how
many, you know, what's going on there.
Um, you have Ttag, youhave the pilot network.
Um, you have, um, you know, you, youhave a couple of different groups.
Uh, some people are, there'sa Reddit flying group.
Uh, but those are groups thatyou can go on to start getting
information quickly over who's hiring.
(11:28):
'cause that's reallywhat you need to know.
You don't want to, when you get afurlough notice, you don't wanna waste
energy applying places that aren't gonnaconsider you, because for the most part,
most of these people need a job, right?
Some people are gonnabe ahead financially.
Some people are gonna havemoney in their savings account.
But for a lot of people, especiallyfolks that are just getting
started out, especially if theyhave student loan payments,
(11:50):
they're not really that far ahead.
They can only afford so many weeks ormonths out on the street not making money.
The advantage today versus a Coronavirusor a 2008 is there are jobs to get.
Like you can sit at home and kindawallow in the grief of it all you want,
but there are jobs to get right now.
(12:10):
That's a waste of time.
It really is a waste of time.
Like I said, when there's a demand issue,that becomes a lot more problematic.
'cause now you're thinking, doI have to leave the industry?
Do I have to go back to school?
Do I have to get adifferent certification?
If you are a pilot right now, there arejobs for you to get and there's actually
a decent amount of jobs for you to get.
You may have to wait a little longerthan you wanted, but pretty much every
(12:32):
regional on the face of right now islooking for direct entry captains.
This is where we get into theego component, and this is where
it becomes really important tohave the right people around you.
The biggest barrier most of these peopleare gonna struggle with is their own ego.
And I say that as someonemyself, that when I got laid off.
(12:54):
You realize, shit, I was flying jetsfor, you know, it was 2 20 10, so
I was only making $90,000 a year.
You know, it's basically povertylevel wages, you know what I'm saying?
But you know, you go from making$90,000 a year and you walk into a
cell phone store and somebody goes, youdon't have enough retail experience.
You don't know what to do.
Right now people are, you know, somepeople are going, should I go to a
(13:19):
regional as a direct entry captain?
Is that gonna hurt my resume?
'cause I'm taking a step backwards.
Okay.
I was a spirit fo.
Should I go to, to, to a NetJetsor should I go to a flex jet?
Or, or should I go to, um, to aregional airline as a first officer?
Is that gonna hurt my resume?
(13:39):
Some people are gonna, should Igo become a flight instructor?
Here was the thing that Ididn't understand until after
I went through this process.
I get laid off from net Jets.
I.
I went in and I interviewed for ajob flying A TBM as a mentor pilot.
I got shot down and it wasbetween me and another guy.
(14:00):
The other guy got it 'cause hewent, I'll be on call 24 7 365.
I went, I want 24 hoursheads up notice on a trip.
It was the only difference.
Um, they hired the other guy.
He severely regrettedbeing on call 24 7 3 6 5.
Doug, if you're listening to man,sorry you had to go through that buddy.
Uh, but when I went throughthat interview, I got
(14:23):
shot down for the TBM job.
But I did so well in the interview thatthe guy that owned the flight school
and management company said, would youlike to be the director of operations?
So when Doug showed up to worktwo weeks later, I was his boss.
Right.
When you go into an inner now.
Absolutely not.
(14:44):
I listened
Max (14:44):
at
Dylan (14:44):
we have a trip in
James (14:45):
I I, I, yeah.
Max (14:47):
ASAP,
James (14:47):
then, and then that's exactly what happened.
Doug and I were talking about howto get Doug outta being on call 24 7
365.
'cause it felt bad for him.
Doug's actually a great guy.
He really is.
Um, but, you know,imagine Doug's surprised.
He walks into the officeand he goes, what do you do?
Because we saw each otheron the interview, right?
So I, he walks in the office, hegoes, what are you doing here?
And I'm like, Hey man,I'm your new boss, right?
So the point is, when you goand interview for a job, right?
(15:12):
I understand it's different whenyou're interviewing for an airline
job, but there's people that gonnainterview for non airline jobs too.
They're gonna go into corporateoperators, so on and so forth.
You're not necessarily justinterviewing for the job that
was listed on the job descriptionthat you're sitting in front of.
They, they might haveother positions for you.
We just, um, we're hiringa bunch of folks right now.
Uh, I just had to hire some newadministrative staff and I, um, we're
(15:35):
hiring some folks to fill out theapplications for clients on our behalf.
I had people apply tothat administrative role.
That we're way, way, way, way,way over qualified for it.
And I called them up on the phone.
Some of them are once again probablylisteners and said, Hey look, I
think you'd be a better fit overhere versus there, I had one person
interview for the admin role did sowell, I had a higher level position
(15:59):
that they're gonna be better for.
You never know when you walkinto an interview what other
opportunities they have.
Do not walk in the door sellingyourself short thinking, I'm
just interviewing for this slot.
There could be three or fouror five other positions.
The easiest example of that, thinkabout an executive jet management.
Think about a Solaris,think about a jet aviation.
You go in, you interview thataccount doesn't like you, that
(16:21):
chief pilot has 10 other accounts.
Do not walk in that door thinkingyou're just interviewing for the
job, you're interviewing for.
There's other opportunities out there.
Dylan (16:30):
Yeah, that's a good point.
James (16:31):
and, and so when you start thinking about that, right, that's where
you start getting the energy to fight.
But the biggest thingthat I didn't understand.
Until after I went through thisprocess is I, I got a job, a job
opportunity flying a citation in Ohio.
I got a job opportunity flying, uh,phenom in the Middle East, and I got a job
(16:52):
opportunity being a director of operationsfor a flight school in New York City.
Um, the jet job in Ohio, great.
But they weren't flying aton, so I didn't know if I was
gonna be on the chopping block.
Two months later, the one in theMiddle East, Eileen basically
said, Hey, look, you want to gomove over to the Middle East?
Make sure they have direct deposit.
I'm not going over there with you.
So there were some family things whereit was like, Hey, that's not gonna work.
Dylan (17:12):
Hmm,
James (17:14):
Um, some of the countries I was gonna be operating in and out
of didn't, probably weren't gonna betoo friendly to people like Eileen.
Um, and the whole concept of herwalking three steps behind me and always
agreeing with everything I say, didn'treally fit her personality either.
So, um,
so, so I took the job running theflight school, and honestly, all of my
friends, or I can't say all, but a lotof the people that I, that I worked
(17:37):
with at NetJet said I was an idiot.
They were like, dude, you went fromflying a jet to being basically
a glorified flight instructor.
It's gonna look horrible on your resume.
You're gonna have a bunch ofserious time in your resume.
Um, you know, you, you shouldbe applying to these jet jobs.
They ended up sitting at home collectingunemployment for about six or nine
months and then became regional fos.
(17:57):
So now they had this six or nine monthgap on their resume and then had to go
take basically the same effectively entrylevel job that they would've had to take
if they just did it right off the bat.
I went straight to the flight school.
When I applied to every other place afterthat, they went, whoa, you went from being
a niche that's pilot to going to be adirector of operations of a flight school.
(18:18):
Your egos in check.
We'll give you a shot.
People respect that.
They respect that willing.
So like if you're a spirit guy and youdecide to go be a direct entry captain
at a regional, or you decide to go bea regional fo or you decide to go be an
FO at a, or you even decide to go be aflight instructor, people respect that.
Work is work.
I don't care what the title is.
(18:41):
Everybody that's gonna interviewyou after you take that job
knows the sacrifice you took, thesacrifice you made to take that job.
going to make you stand out andthey're going to respect you for it.
No one's ever going to lookdown at you for taking work.
Don't limit yourself.
Don't hold yourself back.
(19:01):
Don't let your ego get in the wayof you being successful, right?
The least amount of employmentGA gap you can have, the better.
So if Spirit lets you go andthe only thing you can get is a
job flight instructing, take it.
You're better off being a flightinstructor than someone sitting at home.
(19:23):
That's the biggest thing that I didn't,I just didn't fully appreciate until I
went into interviews after that and peoplewere like, whoa, you didn't sit at home?
And I was like, no.
Why would I do that?
I.
Well, here's a stack of 500 resumesof people that did that, and that's
why you're sitting here right now.
So,
Dylan (19:42):
And I did the same.
You know what I did that, uh,James got laid off 2009 and waited.
Tried to find another job, had agreat interview with a, um, flying,
could have been a CFI in a kingair, like, which would've been good
time, you know, great experience.
Ah, but I've been flying
James (20:00):
yeah, it's not a jet man.
you can't do that
Dylan (20:02):
gonna look weird.
People are gonna question my move.
And so I passed on it.
And, you know, looking back, thatwas a big mistake and waited for
the next good thing to come along.
And you're right, man, if you'reout there and you're working,
something is gonna come to you.
But it's gonna be a, a, a long, hard andpainful process, uh, on your bank account
(20:22):
and your ego if you, uh, if you holdout for that, uh, golden opportunity.
James (20:27):
The other thing with the work.
Is, it gets you in frontof live human beings.
And it gets an answer to that questionnumber three of what do you do?
Um, and, and you'd be surprised howpeople underestimate how important
it's to be around other folks.
Uh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna modify thisstory a little little bit to, to
(20:48):
keep the person anonymous, Uh, but aclient went in to go get a haircut and
they're sitting there talking to thebarber and barber, what's your name?
Where are you from?
What do you do?
I'm a pilot.
Oh, that's weird.
The next person I have that I'mcutting their hair is Pilot two.
(21:11):
Our client goes, well, you know, oh cool.
Where do they fly?
I don't know.
So as they're getting their hairdone, the next person comes in
and the barber introduces them.
Chief pilot at a major airline.
Chief pilot goes, Hey man,uh, pleasure to meet you.
Do you, uh, you wanna stopon buying and get a tour?
Right?
(21:32):
You don't know where you'regonna run into people.
You don't know who you're gonna run into.
You don't know.
And I'm from Jersey, sowho's cousins with who?
Right?
You know who's, know who,who's somebody's, you know,
godmother, godfather, whatever.
Right?
You need to be out in front of people.
I don't care if you take a job on a rampat an FBO, you're gonna run into pilots.
(21:54):
Like, and, and the thing, the great thingis people don't have to do that right now.
It's not coronavirus, it's not 2008.
They, they're gonna get a flying job.
But they do have to get their mind wrappedaround the concept of a job is a job.
Go take one that keeps you in a cockpit.
Most of the jobs right now, I, I, Ican't say all, but a vast majority
(22:17):
of them pay a really good wage.
Right?
When I, I was, when I leftNet Jets, I was making 90.
When I took the flightschool job, I was making 60.
Everyone else focused onthe $30,000 pay cut I took.
Meanwhile, they're on unemploymentmaking $1,600 a month.
But you know, when you're on unemployment,you can sit at home on the couch.
(22:40):
You don't have to face anybody, right?
It's, it's, it's more comfortablewhen you're in that situation to
just collapse, crawl into a holeand don't come back out again.
But yeah, you, you probably, youmight take a pay cut, you might not.
It depends on if you go in and be adirect, you might take a pay increase
(23:00):
if you go become a direct venturecaptain, depending on where you
were and how much you were flying.
It doesn't matter.
Find something that you canafford to live your life on.
Put it on your resume.
If you can't afford to liveyour life on it, go take the job
that pays you the most amount ofmoney and cut your expenses back.
It is what it is.
But the sooner you get work on yourresume, the sooner you're gonna
get a better job that pays more.
(23:21):
It is just how it works.
Max (23:26):
So what's, uh, so what are you hearing James, right now amongst,
you know, with United sayingthey're, they're just kinda give
us a rundown of what, what, whatthe latest is you're hearing from
James (23:37):
the biggest difficulty, and I'm, look, we're talking to everybody, right?
So I, I'm not gonna, I can'tgive the entire breadth of
conversations that we're having,so I'm gonna generalize this a bit,
um, and not go into each individualcompany, but, but when you take a look
at the major airlines, what folks arelosing sight of is the hiring that's
(24:01):
happened over the past two years.
Where you're effectively seeing, youknow, between United, Delta, American,
and Southwest, it was around seven, 800pilots a month that were getting hired.
When you factored in SpiritFrontier, UPS, FedEx Atlas, that
number jumped up to about 1100.
Right?
So that's why you're seeing 12,13,000 pilots being hired per year.
(24:22):
That, which by the way is anastronomical amount of hiring.
Like, I mean, that's the nextclosest year was like 5,000.
Like it's not, that was aludicrous amount of hiring, right?
That, that said that people werelike, oh, this is gonna go on forever.
You're like, the day that started,we knew that wasn't gonna happen.
Um, that massive hiring was madeup of two different reasons.
(24:44):
One was growth, right?
Airlines were, they're taking onnew airframes, they're growing their
operations because of passenger demand.
The second, uh, variablewas, um, was retirements.
Well the growth is slowing right now.
(25:05):
Not because of demand, butbecause of aircraft availability.
Well, they still haveto hire for retirements.
So folks are looking at like, oh myGod, the United United's investigating
the FA or the A's investigating.
Well, yeah, they gotta do something'cause the media keeps picking it up.
But you frigging Southwest had a cowlingblow off an airplane the other day, right?
(25:27):
You think Delta hasn't lost atire off an airplane anytime soon.
Like there's nothing going on there that'snot going on anywhere, everywhere else.
It's just, what did themedia catch onto right now?
So
people are blowing that outta proportion.
There's then, you know, you see stuff likeUnited goes, Hey, we're, we're offering
people, uh, voluntary leaves of absences.
(25:48):
They've done that everyyear for the past 15 years.
It's a one month optional.
Hey, if you want to go take a aearly summer, go knock yourself out.
Well, because that's beingtaken in context of everything
else that's going on.
It's, oh my God, are they gonna furl?
So the fa iss looking into themand now they're doing a leave of
absence, are they gonna furlough?
No.
I mean, like, no, it's just,it, it happens every year.
(26:12):
So, so people are taking information outof context and then they're, they're, um,
correlating it and going, oh my God, thisis an indicator that things are going bad.
United is still hiring.
American is still hiring,Delta is still hiring.
Right.
Southwest, not hiring, but wewon't know till the end of the
(26:32):
year what that looks like for them.
Southwest is in a unique position in thatthey've gotta be very careful on what
Boeing is and is not able to deliver.
Right.
And Max, as you may know, uh,Southwest Post apparently like to work.
So you start stacking too many pilotssitting around and nobody can get
additional trips and pick up stuff.
(26:53):
It's gonna, it's gonna piss people off.
So, so, so Southwest has theirown unique situation that
they have to look at, right?
But Americans hitting peakretirements next year it's over 700.
United's just starting theiracceleration towards peak retirements.
They peak out in 2028.
They still have to, even if theydon't grow, if they take zero Boeings,
(27:15):
zero air buses, they still have tohire for the retirements regionals.
Last year, 500 jets parked.
They're parked 'cause theydon't have enough captains.
Guess what they need?
Direct entry captains.
Each of the regionals needsabout 20 per month minimum.
And they've been getting like five 10.
(27:36):
They need direct entry.
Captains NetJets, they've got somethinglike a two year backlog on pe on clients
they can take, or owners they can take on.
Sorry, NetJets, I apologize for callingclients, um, because of, you know, just
how quickly they can get pilots and howquickly they can get aircraft deliveries.
Flex Jet, they're hiring.
When you take a look atplaces like Wheels Up, right?
(27:58):
If, if somebody's not getting, if they'renot getting growth right, then they've
gotta look at how many people are leaving.
Not as many people are quitting Southwest,not at, not as many people are quitting.
Wheels up.
Not as many people are quitting Frontier.
So guess what?
If they're not growing and nobody'sleaving, hiring slows, not, oh my God.
(28:24):
They're slowing hiring, they'regetting ready to furlough.
It's, oh my God, the next tier upisn't stealing their pilots anymore.
They don't have to hire.
So you've gotta find somebodythat's either expanding they have
jets that they can get right.
Corporate, they have jetsthey can get, those guys are
hiring for expansion, right?
(28:45):
Then you take a look atwho's hiring for retirements.
There's gonna be Legacy Airlines,part 91, corporate flight departments.
People are still aging out andleaving as long as the passenger
man stays there, which it's there.
You can go look at the TSA numbers.
As long as the passenger man staysthere, hiring's not going to stop.
(29:06):
And when you take a look at thingslike Spirit, it'll, if I remember, if
I understand correctly, and I apologizeif I get this wrong, but they're
deferring aircraft deliveries, right?
Don't
worry, somebody's gonna take thoseand then they're gonna expand and
they're gonna hire for that like.
It.
Take a look at whathappened with FedEx and UPS.
FedEx gave up, uh, gaveup the USPS contract.
(29:26):
UPS took it.
They're not hiring 300 pilots,right, like in this market, because
the passenger demand is there.
One company's loss willbe another company's gain.
This is not 2010, 2008, 2001.
This is not a meltdown.
It's a slowdown.
It is a crisis of expectations.
(29:48):
People expected that 1100 pilotswere gonna get hired per month to
infinity and beyond, and now wereonly gonna get 500 a month hired.
This jobs good ones.
Like
Max (30:04):
James.
So you're saying we should notpanic, is that what you're saying?
James (30:08):
I'm saying, if I lost my job tomorrow, I would go apply and
be a direct entry captain, and I
would hold my head up highand I would sit in the.
Max (30:16):
another one.
I see.
James (30:18):
E Exactly.
I would.
And, but, but I have the benefit of,I, we, I told this, I told this story
on a, on an episode with you guys awhile ago, but I, I went through the
experience when I got laid off fromNetJets, I had an identity crisis, right.
That I, I really, I cannotdescribe how embarrassing and
(30:40):
shameful it felt to not have a job.
We're out to dinner, me and my parentsand Eileen grammar school teacher walks
in that I haven't seen in 15 years.
But because of the way I look,you can, I pretty much look the
same way I do when I was five.
Um, and, uh, he, HeyJames, how's it going?
What are you doing?
Uh, you know, and visit my parents.
(31:00):
Oh, cool.
What, what do you, whatdo you do for work?
I'm a pilot.
Max (31:03):
Or I'm a
James (31:04):
laughs and goes, you're not a pilot.
Max (31:07):
not a pilot.
James (31:10):
So, so I had to go through the experience of
sliding under the table, right?
And, and basically trying to pick myselfback up and figure out who the hell am I?
And, and it took probably about twoor three years to where I realized,
oh, who I am as a person is differentthan what I do for a living.
That sounds really, really simple, butas a guy that owns a career development
(31:30):
company, right, who's helped allthese people get hired by, by Legacy
Airlines who's helped all these people.
Uh, become directors of operations at part91 flight departments, who's helped all
these people and negotiate their salaries.
Right?
Um, and if I got laid off tomorrow,I'd go straight to regional and be a
direct entry captain, and I'd be finewith it because my responsibility
(31:52):
is to provide for my family.
It doesn't matter.
That silly little hierarchy thatwe have as pilots and airplanes and
airplane, if you're getting paid tofly it, congratulations, enjoy it.
And if not, you'll dosomething else till you can.
But right now you don'thave to worry about that.
That's all in your head.
(32:14):
I, if I had to get on a regionaljet, or I had to get on name x, y, z
company that, that pilots make fun ofbecause it's, it's beneath them, right?
I'm not, I'm not holding my head low.
I.
I've got a job, man.
I'm flying airplanes.
I'm gonna take that opportunity and ifI'm flying with folks that are younger,
that less experience, I'm gonna sit in thecockpit and mentor the crap out of them.
(32:36):
At least make it fun and enjoyable for me.
Right?
Like you can take these opportunity, andI'm not trying to sound cheesy with this,
like I'm saying, this is somebody thathad to go through it and figure out how
do I, how do I take a situation that isn'twhat I thought isn't what I wanted, and
make it so that it's enjoyable for me?
Yeah.
Start mentoring people.
Get involved in the union, right?
(32:56):
Go, go take a corporate job and golearn the customer service aspect of it.
Go learn how to deal withconflict with people, and you're
gonna learn something new.
Enjoy it.
But you're gonna be flying airplanes.
You're gonna be paid well to do it.
That's what you should focus on.
Not, oh my God, I'm flying a KingAir, or I'm flying a citation,
or I'm flying a regional jet.
Not an Airbus.
It it, it's okay.
Don't worry.
You'll get back into one if you want to.
(33:17):
You might not want to, but ifyou do, you'll get back into one.
Dylan (33:19):
Let's take a time out from our conversation to talk about
another friend of ours, Timothy P.
Pope.
Who's a certified financial plannerdedicated to guiding professional pilots.
Through smart financialplanning, whether it's saving for
retirement investment management.
A seamless military transition.
We're strategic tax planning.
Tim is your trusted financial partner.
(33:40):
Join Tim, as he leads engagingdiscussions on personal finance
strategies for professionalpilots on the pilot money podcast.
Timothy P.
Pope helping professionalpilots make the most out of life
Okay.
Uh, what about like, just in general,if you're at Spirit and you're seeing
downgrades, you're seeing it, maybeyou're not gonna get furloughed, but
(34:03):
you're more like, man, am I in a, a placethat is, has potential in the long run?
Or how do you process that?
Um, kind of as, as a, I don'tknow, what would you call a pilot
that's remaining on the list, butsort of like questioning things.
James (34:21):
Yeah.
So I apologize for all the people thatI may piss off by saying this, but
you're lucky when you get furloughedbecause they made the decision for you.
You, you're not having to sitthere and agonize, should I stay?
Should I go?
So, so on and so forth, and, and you'regetting your head start on whatever
the next place is you're gonna go to.
It's that second and third wavethat really takes it in the
(34:42):
shorts, because guess what?
The first guys that got furloughed,those are now your captains.
They're now senior toyou wherever you're go.
'cause you're following them afterwards,
Right.
So.
When I got laid off from from NetJets, it was like, man, this sucks.
Like, those guys are lucky.
And you're like, no,because you got laid off.
You're going someplace new, you're gonnabe making decent money, flying airplanes,
(35:06):
gaining seniority, so on and so forth.
They're, they're losing seniority.
Guys that get down.
And the downgrade, when you furlough,there's typically downgrades too.
So you're talking 50% pay cuts.
You're talking about gettingdisplaced from your base.
Now you gotta commute.
Now you're talking about costsgoing up because you, um, you're
having to get a crash pad.
Your flying goes down, so you'renot getting as much, you know, their
(35:29):
block hours are going down, so you'renot gonna be getting as much, um,
I'll just call it overtime, justacross the board to make it easy.
Uh, everybody, every company hasa, you know, a TFP green slip,
whatever you wanna call it, right.
Um.
So, so the folks that are leftbehind have a little bit more of
an agonizing decision because it'slike, should I stay or should I go?
The guys that got cut loose,they're gonna end up with jobs.
(35:50):
They're gonna, it's gonna be okay.
Um, so if, if you're a guy thatgets, that gets cut, congratulations.
Now you're start moving in that next
direction that you want to go
Dylan (36:00):
world's your oyster.
Yeah.
James (36:01):
Well, and the, and the benefit that I had, so when I got laid off, I
made a commitment to myself that I wasgonna run 110% in another, in as many
different directions as I could, becauseI wanted to get myself into the best
possible position that when NetJetscalled me back, I could make a decision.
Is NetJets the better option oris where I'm at the better option?
(36:21):
But if you don't go 110% to getyourself into the best position
that you can, you can end up foolingyourself that when spirit calls back,
you go, oh, this is a better deal.
It might not be.
It's just, you just didn't push it hardenough to get yourself something better.
So I ended up not goingback after furlough.
It ended up being a betterdeal where I landed.
I, um, for me and my familyhad a better quality of life.
(36:46):
I was making more money.
I had way better health bene, I hadbetter benefits, like it, the whole thing.
I ended up in a way better position.
So I, I went to the new thingthat I went to is where I stayed.
A lot of my friends went back.
Just depended on, on,on, where you ended up.
Dylan (37:00):
Yeah, max gave me that advice.
I remember when I got let go from a, um.
Company.
He's like, you, he basically waslike, treat that job as it's dead.
This is for a corporate operatormaybe, where it's not so much
like seniority based in furlough,but he's like, set that aside.
That's behind you now.
Don't be like, well, they could call back
James (37:18):
Now it's over.
Dylan (37:19):
And maybe just like it's over move
James (37:22):
they're dead.
Dylan (37:23):
and it, and if they call you back who you can deal with it at that
point, but don't, don't go sitting there.
And, and I think that's, that'ssolid advice for, like you're saying,
you've just gotta press forwardas much as you can and you'll see
James (37:37):
I, I interviewed at a, uh, I, I'm not gonna name the company,
but I interviewed at a companyright after I got laid off from,
from NetJets for a flying job.
And I made it all the way tothe last stage and they said,
okay, we're gonna bring you in.
It's a formality.
We're going to introduceyou to the, to the pilots.
And then from there,pretty much job is yours.
I got a call, no joke.
Seven minutes later itsaid, Hey, just kidding.
(37:58):
We changed our mind.
We're going with another guy.
I called my mother.
She took every one of their products outof the house, threw 'em in the garbage.
Those products have neverbeen in the house ever again.
When someone shoots you downor lets you go, they are dead.
It's over.
Let it go.
Move on.
Right?
They on to this day, thathappened 15 years ago.
(38:19):
There is not one product fromthat company in my parents' house.
She will not even if they
give it to her for free, like on anairline, she'll throw it in the garbage.
They're
dead.
It's over.
Dylan (38:31):
That's good advice though.
It really is.
James (38:33):
And I won't name the company 'cause I don't want to kill the
stock, you know, with the listener group
banning them.
You know what I'm saying?
Dylan (38:40):
Uh, James, we've got some flight advice from some listeners.
Anything else you want to hit?
Any other pearls of wisdom youwanna dispense, uh, to the listeners
before we jump into, uh, advice?
James (39:01):
Can you hear me okay?
Okay.
Uh, the big thing is look, thatsupport structure is really important.
Um, you gotta have people around youthat are forcing you to get up every day.
Uh, for me, that's Eileen.
Like I said, some people it'stheir parents, some people it's
a husband, some people it's wife.
But you have to have someone that holdsyou accountable every day to get up, put
your clothes on, get up, take a shower,put your clothes on and do something.
(39:24):
Um, look, obviously if they need helpwith resumes, if they need help filling
out the applications, if they need uh,strategy questions, give us a call,
um, we can handle that aspect of it.
But honestly speaking, the firstthing is to get that support structure
in place so that you keep one footin front of the other every day.
'cause you're gonna have highsand you're gonna have lows.
(39:45):
And the rejection sucks.
That's the hardest part to get through.
Not everybody was as fortunate as me.
They weren't born with red hairand had to date in high school.
So they're not used to rejection.
Right.
But I don't care how many,like, it hurts to get rejected.
That's why, that's why when we'reworking with folks, that's why they
have a phone number they can call.
'cause when they get that rejection.
(40:06):
If their husband or wife give 'em ahug, we give 'em a hug and go, Hey,
look, here's what you can do next.
Here's how to do this.
Here's who to talk to,here's yada, yada, yada.
So I can't overstate how important it'sto have that support structure in place.
You, you really need peoplethat you can call when you're
panicking to help keep you puttingone foot in front of the other.
Max (40:26):
I've been
doing that for Dylan for years.
James (40:29):
Exactly.
Dylan (40:30):
he's my rock.
He's my rock.
James (40:35):
The
butter for your roll.
Dylan (40:37):
Um, but I'll tell you what, it is important and, and like what you
said before, James, not seven people,
one or two, because you, you're,you'll get a million different
pieces of advice from pilot.
You know, every pilot loves to dispenseadvice and none of them necessarily
are wrong or bad, but you just kindof gotta pick what you're gonna do
(40:58):
and then, and then move forward with
James (41:00):
the, the easiest way to explain what it's like to
get too many mentors early on.
So you imagine you're gonna gofor your private pilot certificate
and every lesson you use adifferent instructor on landings.
It uh, it's not that the instructorsare giving you bad techniques.
It's you gotta pick one pony and ride it.
Once you get on track, once youget to that point to where you're
(41:22):
getting ready to solo, you have asecond person step in and check you.
You don't have 10 otherpeople step in and check you.
It's the same thingwith mentorship in life.
If you grab too many mentors, right?
It's just gonna get confusing.
'cause everybody's gonnahave a different take.
The other thing that's really important,and this is something that we do when
we talk to folks, you wanna make surethe mentors that you seek out are not
(41:42):
coaching you to do what's right for them.
They're coaching you todo what's right for you.
Right?
So magically if you grab somebodythat flew for X, y, Z airline,
they're gonna talk you down thatpath to go to that airline, right?
Because it's what they understand.
You need somebody who,who can listen to you.
(42:02):
Repeat back to you what yousaid in their own, in their own
words, and then go, okay, here'sthe strategy on how to do that.
It may not work for them, it may not work.
Meaning the person that's mentoring you,it may not work for them personally.
It may not work for their family,but they're guiding you down the path
that works for you and your family.
When I got laid off from Net Jets,I didn't have kids so I could
relocate anywhere in the country.
(42:23):
I had a bunch of friendsthat did have kids.
They couldn't, if I got thewrong mentor, they were gonna
coach me on how to stay local.
I spread out my, my job prospects andended up applying to jobs in other
states, and that's how I ended up gettingjobs much quicker than everybody else.
So just kind of keep that in mind.
Think about it like grabbing a newinstructor for each landing lesson.
(42:45):
It's not gonna go well.
Dylan (42:47):
Oh, that's a good analogy.
Okay.
Speaking of mentorship andadvice, uh, we're gonna have
two mentors help you here.
We've got Raven Careers andEagle Careers, uh, standing by to
James (42:59):
Oh, oh, my biggest competitor.
Dylan (43:01):
you're one of your biggest competitors.
We're looking to turn a profit this year.
James (43:04):
Guys are stealing market share left and right
from us
Dylan (43:06):
exactly, yeah.
Okay.
I will read this one and then, um, we'lltake advice from Max and from James.
This will be good.
We'll get two instructorsfrom one Landing.
Um, okay.
This, this, this comes from, uh, a JetBlue Pilot says, uh, currently working
for certain Blue Tail major airline.
I have eight years of seniorityand I'm a recent Airbus captain.
(43:28):
I live in base.
The job has been awesomeand I'm happy here.
Overall day-to-Day life is great.
The past couple of years, however,have been filled with uncertainty.
Recent blockage of the spirit acquisitionhas left us in an unknown state.
Couple that with the news ofCorporate Raider, Carl Icahn gaining
seats on our board and aircraftdelivery and Pratt engine issues.
There is.
Understood fear and doubtamongst the pilot group.
(43:50):
We're seeing stagnation in seniorityand career progression compared
to other airlines out there.
In the past few years, I'vewatched friends and colleagues
leave for the legacies.
And seeing them rocketup the seniority list.
I try not to compare myself to othersand while I'm happy for them, it's
definitely a bit deflating hearing.
Your buddy who just got hired at a legacyis already a wide body fo or captain in
their base of choice, almost out of thegate or another is celebrating their
(44:13):
profit sharing check and buying a boat.
Ha.
While here we're talking aboutdisplacement and lack of profitability,
my question is approaching age 40.
Would it be ridiculous to give it allup, start over at the bottom of a huge
seniority list like aa, United or Delta?
Purely because of company uncertainty.
I live within three hours of NYC.
Being in the junior base would definitelyhelp my seniority, but the idea of
(44:35):
driving to and B, based in the NYCarea sounds like an absolute torture.
I also will absolutely not commute.
My fear is missing out on the hiringboom now and going down with the
ship if things don't turn around.
The lack of good news during the boomingtime in the airline market has us all
concerned for our futures thoughts.
Max (44:55):
FOMO strikes again.
Dylan (44:57):
That's right.
James (45:00):
This is a risk discussion, so I'm gonna talk about it from that perspective,
uh, because there's a lot of peoplethat are having this conversation.
So you have a, a, uh, let's, I don'tknow, use for example, JetBlue, right?
So you, uh, per se, let's say you havea guy who's an eight year captain.
Um, so when people run the calculuson this, they typically just run
(45:22):
it from the perspective of what'sthe chances I get furloughed.
And if you go back to the conversationwe had a little while ago about spirit,
while that sucks, that's kind ofthe easier of the positions to be in
'cause somebody else made the decision.
For you as an eight year captain,if JetBlue does a furlough, do
you get downgraded to fo, do youget displaced outta your base?
Are you now, like there's a lot of otherliabilities that somebody as an eight
(45:45):
year captain at JetBlue has, right?
You can use, uh, a roundnumber of 20%, right?
That's, that's what they assume,you know, in terms of furloughs.
But what they don't then do isgo, okay, 20% downgrades, right?
So in this case, spirit used alittle less than 10% of their pilots.
Is, is, is roughly, I think whatthat number works out to be.
(46:06):
And if you notice the amount of downgradesthat Spirit is doing is basically
equivalent to the amount of furloughs.
So now you run that calculation,okay, I'm an eight year captain.
Probably not gonna get let go, right?
There's no guarantees in life,but as an eight year captain, the
probability that you're gonna getlow, get let go, is, is much lower.
Okay, cool.
So now what does my life looklike if I get downgraded?
(46:29):
Okay, if I was gonna get displaced,where would I be displaced?
Two, what do I think theamount of flying would be?
I, I would be getting so on and so forth.
Okay?
So, so that's, that's the oneside of the equation risk wise.
The other side of the equation is,okay, so where do you want to go?
Right?
So if you're taking a look at Delta,if you're taking a look at American,
(46:49):
if you're taking a look at United,and I'm just using those three right
now because Southwest isn't hiringright, and I'm just gonna stick with
passenger carriers to make it easy.
Um, now you take a look at,okay, well Americans hitting peak
retirements next year, right?
Um, Delta's hired a lot of young folks.
If United's not even hittheir peak retirement yet,
(47:10):
they're accelerating into it.
Well, you can start to see that yourrisk profile is gonna be a little
bit different each carrier you go to.
Right.
You could go to a United, effectivelygo into a direct entry captain
role back in the New York andhe said he lives in New York.
Right.
Dylan (47:26):
No, I'm thinking he actually lives in Boston
James (47:29):
Okay.
Yeah, that's a
Dylan (47:30):
said New York was a three hour drive.
James (47:32):
Yeah, that's,
yeah.
He's not in DC Um, so, uh, that,that's the tough one, right?
'cause the guys that live in Boston,right, that's a crappy commute.
And, and I mean, the drive sucks.
You're not getting on a ferry and the
airline commute sucks and it'sso expensive in that area.
The country, you're probablynot flying to Cessna back and
forth between Logan and, and JFK.
(47:55):
Um, I guess he could live in upstate NewYork as well, if he's in upstate New York.
Driving on the Jersey side downto Newark is a little bit easier.
Just haven't
been from that area.
But an anyway, um.
Yeah, you, you have that, you have thatability to, to potentially make a direct
entry captain where you're not gonnatake a pay cut, um, your schedule cuts.
(48:16):
Like you're not gonna take asmany cuts in quality of life, pay
and schedule by making that move.
So it just boils down to how they perceivethe risk of, of if everything went bad
and they got downgraded, would they ratherlive with that or would they rather live
with, Hey look, I want to go make the jumpand there's gonna be a little bit of, of
(48:37):
discomfort, but maybe a bid wide body.
Right.
And you're doing less of that commutingand, um, so it, does that make any sense
in terms of how to look at that risk
Max (48:47):
Yeah, it's just, it's an impossible, it's just such a hard
thing to evaluate because you're tryingto, you're trying to make guesses
on the airline industry, which ishistorically very difficult to predict,
James (48:59):
That's the exact opposite way of doing it.
So people are trying togauge it based on the win.
I would encourage you togauge it based on the loss.
'cause the, you can't predictthe win, you can't predict what's
gonna change in the future.
But you can take a look at, if I wasgonna risk losing this by staying
versus risk losing this by going,which one would be more palatable?
(49:21):
Which one would be less uncomfortable?
Which one would my family tolerate better?
And that's, that's thepony you ride at the end.
Look, none of us will know until weretire and you look backwards as to what
would've and would not have worked out.
Max (49:34):
Yeah.
James (49:35):
But it's, it's really what are you, what are you willing to risk losing?
And if you live in Boston and yougo, the commute's really valuable,
the not commuting's really valuable.
And I'd rather be a senior first officerthan a junior cap, a senior first officer
in, um, Boston than a junior captain inNew York than, than that, than stay there.
(49:55):
And if they downgradeyou, they downgrade you.
It's still gonna be better than thealternative, but it gets you out.
Having that clear y gets you outta that.
Yeah, but my buddy's overhere as a captain doing X.
No, you're, you're
exactly right.
Commuting to an airport, you don'twant commute to flying an airplane.
You don't wanna fly to locationsyou don't want to go to.
But other than that, you're right.
(50:17):
And
you're gonna see, just real quick,you're gonna see now that everything's
slowing down a bit, there's gonna be alot of buyers remorse, people that took
certain jobs because everything wasmoving fast and everything was going up
into the right and, and now what peopleare left with is a boatload of money
to do something they don't want to do.
And it turns out the moneydoesn't doesn't cut it.
Max (50:39):
Yeah.
And then I think.
I was just gonna say, once you makethat call and you sit down and you
evaluate your options and, and youdecide, okay, this is what I'm gonna
do, then stick with the decision.
Don't look back, don't quit looking,you know, and reevaluating it a hundred
times because you're just gonna driveyourself nuts unless there's something
substantial that changes, right.
The, the, the thought and then maybe it's10 to reevaluate, but, but I think that's
(51:01):
what a lot of people do is they're like,okay, I'm staying, I'm gonna do this.
And then a couple months later they'relike, oh, did I make the right decision?
Like, should I, you know,and, and I think that's
James (51:09):
the, the clar, the clarity on the why drives that, right?
So, so I know for me, I know theschedule is really important.
I know having weekends offroutinely is very important.
Um, I know that the healthcare andthe retirement are really important.
Um, and I know that the hoursthat I fly are really important.
(51:31):
That's why I fly King Air, right?
I, I hate to break it to you guys.
I'm not, not at a legacy airline'cause I can't get there.
I'm not, not in a corporate flightdepartment 'cause I can't get there.
Right?
Like, I'm fortunate that I have a lot ofpeople that are willing to vouch for me.
I'm flying when I'm flying becauseI've made the decision that that's
what I wanna fly where I wanna fly.
(51:51):
Not 'cause I can't godo something else, but.
Every time one of you guys goes,look at what I made last year.
I do have to ask myself whyam I doing what I'm doing?
And when I go, all I gotta do isgo, Hey Max, uh, how many weekends?
You know, did you dothis or did you do this?
Or did you do this?
And when you say, no, I cansit right back down and go back
to my potato salad in peace.
(52:13):
Um, if you don't have a clear why,when somebody else goes, look at this
shiny thing over here, it could bepay, it could be schedule, it could be
quality life, could be airplane type.
I don't care what it is, right?
Look at this shiny thing over here.
You're gonna chase it likea dog chasing a school bus
because you're not clear on why.
Anything you do, I don't care what it is.
Any company you go to, you'regiving something up to be there.
(52:35):
You're sacrificing something to be there.
You're compromising onsomething to be there.
Understanding why you'recompromising, that really helps
you not having heartburn every day,swallowing the decision you made.
Dylan (52:48):
Okay.
I want to, I want to lookat a different aspect of it.
Um.
Elon Musk, one of the
James (52:56):
Oh, this is gonna be good.
Dylan (52:57):
yeah, he developed like self-driving and all this stuff
is because he said being stuckin traffic is like soul sucking.
Like there's somethingthat just destroys you.
And I can compare that to being ina small or shrinking base that I was
there in Los Angeles, you know, in thisbase that was like trying to hold on.
(53:20):
But they were like alwayscontracting and cutting lines
and cutting, flying and stuff.
That was soul sucking because itwas like, every month it was like
more bad news and more bad news.
It's like, yeah, I live here andI drive, you know, 10 minutes
there, but the deal just keepsgetting worse and worse and worse.
And that to me can make it really hard,especially when there are people that
(53:41):
are, are moving up in the other direction.
So I think moving backwardscan just be so difficult.
And IE, even if you have clear on the why.
Yeah, man, that can be really hard.
The stagnation.
Does that make sense what I'm saying?
James (53:57):
It does if the Y's not strong enough
and, and, and,
Dylan (54:00):
The why better be really strong if you're gonna be in a stagnant situation.
James (54:05):
it does because, um, so look, I'll just take the job that I'm doing.
I mean, the pay increases that youguys have been seeing or that airline
guy's been seeing versus what we, Imean, it's not even the same ballpark.
Like, you know, we're talking $5,000 payincreases versus $50,000 pay increase,
like, you know, $5,000 pay increase versusa hundred thousand dollars pay increase.
(54:28):
I mean, it's not even inthe same stratosphere.
And, and if you don't have a strongwhy that's going to eat at you.
I mean, that's literally goingto suck the soul out of you.
But.
When, when you get that burning feelingin the dead center of your chest, right?
(54:49):
And, and you, you wanna walk into aroom and just scream at somebody, right?
And then you go, okay,why am I doing this?
And for, for, and I'm notbeing cheesy when I say this.
For me, it's a family decision.
Like it's really important to me that Iget to eat a certain way, that I get to go
(55:10):
to sleep at the same time every night thatI wake up at the same time every morning,
that I fly the same schedule every day.
It's very predictable in terms of whatdays I work and what days I don't work.
It's very predictable about what happenswhen something in the economy goes bad.
We just keep moving on.
Right?
And when I look at that, and then Ican have conversations with Eileen
and go, what is that worth to you?
(55:33):
And she'll go, okay, good.
So let's talk about if you went to.
X, y, Z company.
Yeah, you would have all this overhere, but you would give up all that.
And here's what that costis gonna be for us at home.
If you, if, if the Y is 'cause the colorof the paint on the tail, it's gonna hurt.
Right?
If, if there's, if there's other thingsthat they're not giving you or other
(55:57):
things that you're not clear on thatthey're giving you that are important.
Yeah, you're right.
Man.
When stuff starts slidingdownhill, it hurt.
'cause you, 'cause you, youfeel like you're dressed up
like a rodeo clown every day.
Like you're the joke of the room.
Everybody else is doinggreat and you're the idiot.
But the reason it feels that wayis because when somebody goes,
I'm making $500,000 a year,you go, yeah, that's right.
(56:19):
And I wake up at 7:00 AM every morningand I eat a nice warm breakfast and
I just got my cholesterol checkedand it's healthy 'cause I haven't
eaten in a terminal in 15 years.
That's not good enough for you,then what I'm doing isn't the
right thing for you, right?
That why has to be strong enoughthat when somebody turns to you
(56:41):
and goes, I'm smarter than you.
They're not literally saying that.
But when someone goes, I'mmaking a half a million dollars
a year, look at this schedule.
What's effectively being received is,look how much smarter I'm than you are.
Look how much moresophisticated I'm than you are.
Right?
The ability to work through thatis, I appreciate that and here's wh
here's why I'm doing what I'm doing,which relates to, here's why what
(57:03):
you're doing isn't right for me.
Dylan (57:07):
That's well said.
Anything, anything to add, max?
Max (57:12):
No, I think he, uh, summed it up.
That's good.
Dylan (57:17):
Find your why.
That's good.
James (57:19):
It w So in interview prep, that's why so many people
have been having trouble.
'cause he's like, whydo you wanna work here?
And they're like, I don't know.
Because they were chasing status.
Shiny airplane, biggerairplane paycheck, right?
And then you get there andyou're like, oh, great, I'm here.
And then something bad happensand you go, shit, why am I here?
Yeah, you're about to find out right now.
Dylan (57:41):
all right.
That was flight advice with the guru.
What did you call 'em?
The lyrical gangster of, I don't
Max (57:49):
know.
I just, I
Dylan (57:50):
was.
Max (57:50):
remember.
It
James (57:51):
gang, the lyrical gangster of career counseling
Dylan (57:54):
There it was,
James (57:55):
and strategy.
Dylan (57:56):
dropped some rhymes.
I have like five different sections.
I'm gonna click off into little videos.
James.
That was great.
Um, folks know that if they needyour help, especially if they're,
uh, looking at maybe a furloughor, uh, making a pivot right now.
Uh, we'll have all of yourcontact information, including
your calendar in the show notes.
They can click and get on, uh, geton your schedule and, uh, seek some
(58:19):
mentorship, uh, as we, as we mentioned.
So appreciate your time, James.
Uh, anything you want to addto before we get outta here?
James (58:26):
Nope.
Um, I do appreciate folks reaching out.
I do.
It is take, it's taken aboutanywhere between a week to two
weeks, again, on our scheduleright now, just because of demand.
Um, do apologize for that.
Uh, but, um, we're spending about 30to 45 minutes with each person that
puts time on our calendar to talk with'em, to make sure we understand where
they're at, what we can do to help,and what the right strategy is for 'em.
(58:47):
Don't spend money before you knowwhat you're tracking towards.
It's a waste, right?
You need to have a strategy.
You need to have a clear direction beforeyou start throwing money at the problem.
So, uh, I look forwardto working with you guys
Dylan (59:00):
Are you gonna join our book club?
James, are you gonna readchapter one of Hard Landing?
Have you
James (59:04):
and all that.
I, so I do a nine hour roundtrip drive per week, so I'm
gonna start listening to it.
Audio book in the car.
Dylan (59:10):
Okay,
good.
Just, just read chapter one andthen we'll, we'll discuss it.
I think you're gonna like it,
Max (59:17):
we
James (59:17):
put it on half speed.
Dylan (59:21):
chapter one.
Alright, that is gonna do it.
James Ode, Raven Careers.
Thank you so much.
Adios.
James (59:28):
Thank you.
James O'Neill.
He is the lyrical gangster ofall things aviation, job related.
Welcome back to the show, James.
James (00:16):
Thank
you for having me.
Max (00:18):
The
James (00:18):
Thank you for having me.
Max (00:20):
The airlines have done it.
Somebody has said the F word.
James (00:26):
You know what, the difference between a depression
and a recession is, right?
Max (00:30):
No.
Dylan (00:31):
Uh oh.
James (00:33):
Recession's.
When your neighbor loses their job.
A depression's when you lose yours.
Dylan (00:38):
Ooh,
Max (00:38):
Pilots around the country are shaking in their roper, black, shined up boots.
Nobody
knows what to do.
We've, we've come to you, ourdiamond dog, uh, in the business.
So tell us
James (00:53):
So quick.
So quick poll.
Do you guys think theyshould be panicking?
Dylan (00:59):
Well, I think I,
to put it in context,
Max (01:01):
if you're in the bottom couple percented spirit, I'd be pretty,
I'd be pretty concerned, but,
James (01:09):
All right.
Why would you be concerned?
Max (01:10):
well, there's no need to panic.
Listen, we're pilots.
We don't panic.
We, we react.
So, uh, no one should ever be panicking.
You may be changing your strategy,perhaps your outlook in the business or
maybe what your plan is, but panickingis, uh, not warranted in any sense.
James (01:31):
So this is, there's a lot of stuff going on right now and
there is a lot of news coming outbasically almost daily at this point.
And it's, it's really jerkingpeople around 'cause you're getting.
Basically two weeks ago, I aeroannounces, Hey, we're ceasing operations.
A week later, UPS gets this brand newcontract and they're gonna hire 300 pilots
(01:54):
and they haven't hired anybody effectivelyin the past year and a half, two years.
And then like three days afterthat, spirit's furloughing.
So if you are somebody that this is,this is kind of your first ro I I
get, everyone says, like, you know,Hey, I went through Coronavirus, but
everybody's bailed out for Coronavirus.
So that's not really a, a fair comparator.
(02:14):
That's not, that's not a 2008 recession.
That's not September 11th.
That's not the Gulf War one.
That's not the 87 stock market crash.
That's not deregulation.
And the key difference between everyone of those events that I named
and this event is every one of thoseprevious events, coronavirus the
2008 Great Recession, September 11th,Gulf War one, the 87 stock market
(02:39):
crash passenger demand dropped.
Every single one of those, the furloughswere because passenger demand dropped.
The only number people need to be trackingright now is the TSA passenger numbers.
And if you take a look at them, we areright back to where we were in 2019.
(03:01):
If demand is there, if passengerdemand is there, if people want to
get on airplanes and go flying, thatmeans there's a job for you to find.
2001, there was no job in aviation.
You were, I mean, when I got laidoff in, in 2010, I got turned down
(03:22):
from, uh, a Verizon store for sellingcell phones 'cause they didn't
have enough retail experience.
And I had a flight school turn me down.
'cause I didn't have enough dualgiven I was an instructor at Riddle.
I was a part 61 instructor.
I had flown to two different regionalsat NetJets at that point, and I was on
the safety committee of the Union atNetJets, but I didn't have enough dual
given time, so I couldn't teach in a 1 72.
(03:46):
Now what we're talking aboutis folks are going, I don't
want to go be a regional pilot.
don't want to go to NetJets, Idon't want to go to Flex Jet.
I'm gonna have to wait to get an interviewat United Delta or American United.
Delta and American are onlyhiring for retirements, right?
(04:10):
That's the conversationwe're having right now.
And the reason why people arepanicking is really because for a
majority of the people, they're notgreedy, they're not stupid, they've
just never been through this before.
I.
And so they don't know what to expect.
They don't understand why it's happening,and they don't know what to do Next.
Wheels Up just announced thispast week, Hey, look, we're
(04:33):
stopping new hire classes.
They're saying to people in interviews,Hey, it, you know when you get to a
check ride and, and you bust the maneuverand they go, you have two options.
You can continue to check, right?
Or you can stop.
Yeah.
Wheels Up is, is basically doing the,we can continue the interview, but I
don't have a class date to give you orwe can stop right where we're at, which
is super transparent and amazing that arecruiter would actually say that, right?
(05:02):
I mean there, for the recruiter itwould've been a lot, a recruiter, it'd be
easier to just go through the interviewand go, Hey, let me, um, let me, uh,
let me just kind of run through theshow that way there's no conflict here,
and then we'll deal with it in the end.
So, so people are seeing this news upand down and up and down and up and down
of a little bit of positive and a lotof, bit of negative and a lot of, bit
(05:23):
of negative, gets a lot of people on theinternet whipped up and freaking out.
So they're focusing on whatthey think's gonna happen next
instead of just getting a job.
Dylan (05:35):
Hmm.
Okay.
So James, for those of usthat are listening right now,
that actually are at Spirit.
Which, you know, it, it's hard toknow how many end up pilots will
end up being furloughed becauseof attrition and everything else.
They're saying it's, you know,what, 260 right now, they do have to
take some action right away, right?
(05:58):
talk to those folks for a minute and,and say, okay, if you are actually
potentially on the chopping block,what should I be doing right now?
James (06:05):
Okay, so 2010.
I'm in recurrent ground school,and this is not an exaggeration.
The ground school instructoris handing out the written test
for us to take on the last day.
And all of a sudden you hear, youknow how, like how you go to a
baseball stadium and you have a wave?
Well, instead of people throwingtheir hands up, it was, what the
fuck is this going across the room?
(06:26):
And it was 'cause we all got E,about three quarters of the class
got emails that said you arebeing laid off school instructor
was not told that was happening.
So now he's confused.
He hands the test go, Heyeverybody, just take the test.
Lemme go get some executives, take thetest, hand it in, they come down, right?
So you get that initial shock, youget that initial shot of adrenaline,
(06:46):
that initial shot of cortisol, you'repanicking, your brain is cutting out.
You're going, how am Igonna make my mortgage?
How am I gonna pay downmy student loan debt?
What am I like?
All these thoughts are going through yourhead in that immediate moment because you
weren't like, even at NetJets, we had,you know, spirit has their issues for
different reasons that NetJets did, but.
(07:07):
Basically, at the time I wassitting at home, not flying, right?
We were parking airplanes be, and so you,you kind of had an idea, but there was
all this up and down messaging from the
union and the company that waslike, we might pull it out.
Hey, there were voluntary,uh, voluntary leaves.
There were things folks at the companywere doing, and on the union side,
(07:29):
they were trying to save our jobs.
So look, looking back when you'reoutside of it, you go, Hey, I
was definitely gonna lose my job.
But when you're in the middleof it, you're basically holding
onto as much hope as you can that
by some power vested in me.
Somebody's gonna come in and save theday and and you're gonna keep your job.
So even though in the back of your mind,and then for some folks in the front of
(07:49):
their mind, they, they had an inklingor an indication or a pretty good idea
that they were gonna get laid off.
It still hits you like a ton of brickswhen you actually get the message and you,
'cause were they gonna lay off a hundred?
Were they gonna lay off 700?
So there's some people right now.
That are taking a deep sigh of reliefand going, oh, it was only 260.
That's not me.
(08:11):
And there's somewhere around260 people that are going,
crap, I gotta do something now.
Now we've been working withSpirit folks prior to this.
So there's a lot of guys that arealready a month, 2, 3, 4 months
ago, got the ball rolling, right?
So they're ahead by a certain amount andthen you get the people that have been
kind of surviving on Hopium that, hey,this is all gonna figure itself out.
(08:33):
They're the ones that kind of go intofull on crisis mode, if that makes sense.
Dylan (08:37):
Yeah.
James (08:37):
So, so the first thing you have to do, or that I would
recommend they do, is you have toget your support structure together.
Because what happens is when you gethit with that stress, not to get too
techy or too, um, sciencey with it,but the front or part of your brain,
the executive functioning portionthat just shuts down, you can't make
decisions 'cause you're overwhelmed.
(08:57):
So it could be a husband, itcould be a wife, it could be a
mentor, it could be a friend.
I recommend one max two.
You don't want to go out and get 50people 'cause you're gonna get a bunch of
conflicting opinions, but you need one ortwo people that can hold you accountable
to what you're gonna do every day.
Somebody that calls you at nine inthe morning and makes sure you're
actually getting up outta bed.
Somebody that, and I know thissounds really, really stupid, but
(09:20):
it gets hard to take a shower.
It gets hard to shave your facetwo, three times a week or however
many times a week you shave.
Right?
Um, it gets hard to, toforce yourself to go outside.
Right?
In the United States, anytime you meetsomeone, you get asked three questions.
What's your name?
Where are you from?
What do you do?
(09:40):
Option number three, if youdon't have an answer to that
question, it's a problem, right?
And if you say pilot, peoplego, who do you fly for?
That becomes a complicated questionwhen you're getting laid off.
So a lot of people avoid going outside,they avoid talking to other people.
'cause there's a lot of shame, there's alot of embarrassment that goes into this.
Um, when I got my layoff notice,I hate asking people for help.
(10:03):
I hate it.
Hate it.
I don't want to inconvenience them.
I don't wanna bother them.
I don't want to dump myproblems onto their shoulder.
But the reality is, when you runinto a situation like this, everybody
and their mother wants to help.
But you have to be the firstone to reach out and ask, right?
Because every one of us that has ajob that's not getting laid off right
(10:25):
now has either been laid off before,so we understand what it's like, or
we're sitting there going, shit, ifit was me, I hope somebody would help.
Right?
There's a lot of people trying toput positive vibes into the universe,
'cause they may need some of those tocome back to them here in the future.
So that's, that's step one.
two, um, is to startgathering information.
(10:48):
Uh, LinkedIn is a reallygood resource for that.
Facebook is as well.
And if you just give me, uh, a second,I'll give you the kind of the groups that
I go on, on Facebook in terms of if folkswanna get information or give information.
Um.
But, uh, airline pilotinterview questions and answers.
The guy who's the admin of that groupjust started a post yesterday and said,
Hey, let's help spirit pilots out.
(11:08):
Everybody that's hiring list thecompany name that's hiring, and how
many, you know, what's going on there.
Um, you have Ttag, youhave the pilot network.
Um, you have, um, you know, you, youhave a couple of different groups.
Uh, some people are, there'sa Reddit flying group.
Uh, but those are groups thatyou can go on to start getting
information quickly over who's hiring.
(11:28):
'cause that's reallywhat you need to know.
You don't want to, when you get afurlough notice, you don't wanna waste
energy applying places that aren't gonnaconsider you, because for the most part,
most of these people need a job, right?
Some people are gonnabe ahead financially.
Some people are gonna havemoney in their savings account.
But for a lot of people, especiallyfolks that are just getting
started out, especially if theyhave student loan payments,
(11:50):
they're not really that far ahead.
They can only afford so many weeks ormonths out on the street not making money.
The advantage today versus a Coronavirusor a 2008 is there are jobs to get.
Like you can sit at home and kindawallow in the grief of it all you want,
but there are jobs to get right now.
(12:10):
That's a waste of time.
It really is a waste of time.
Like I said, when there's a demand issue,that becomes a lot more problematic.
'cause now you're thinking, doI have to leave the industry?
Do I have to go back to school?
Do I have to get adifferent certification?
If you are a pilot right now, there arejobs for you to get and there's actually
a decent amount of jobs for you to get.
You may have to wait a little longerthan you wanted, but pretty much every
(12:32):
regional on the face of right now islooking for direct entry captains.
This is where we get into theego component, and this is where
it becomes really important tohave the right people around you.
The biggest barrier most of these peopleare gonna struggle with is their own ego.
And I say that as someonemyself, that when I got laid off.
(12:54):
You realize, shit, I was flying jetsfor, you know, it was 2 20 10, so
I was only making $90,000 a year.
You know, it's basically povertylevel wages, you know what I'm saying?
But you know, you go from making$90,000 a year and you walk into a
cell phone store and somebody goes, youdon't have enough retail experience.
You don't know what to do.
Right now people are, you know, somepeople are going, should I go to a
(13:19):
regional as a direct entry captain?
Is that gonna hurt my resume?
'cause I'm taking a step backwards.
Okay.
I was a spirit fo.
Should I go to, to, to a NetJetsor should I go to a flex jet?
Or, or should I go to, um, to aregional airline as a first officer?
Is that gonna hurt my resume?
(13:39):
Some people are gonna, should Igo become a flight instructor?
Here was the thing that Ididn't understand until after
I went through this process.
I get laid off from net Jets.
I.
I went in and I interviewed for ajob flying A TBM as a mentor pilot.
I got shot down and it wasbetween me and another guy.
(14:00):
The other guy got it 'cause hewent, I'll be on call 24 7 365.
I went, I want 24 hoursheads up notice on a trip.
It was the only difference.
Um, they hired the other guy.
He severely regrettedbeing on call 24 7 3 6 5.
Doug, if you're listening to man,sorry you had to go through that buddy.
Uh, but when I went throughthat interview, I got
(14:23):
shot down for the TBM job.
But I did so well in the interview thatthe guy that owned the flight school
and management company said, would youlike to be the director of operations?
So when Doug showed up to worktwo weeks later, I was his boss.
Right.
When you go into an inner now.
Absolutely not.
(14:44):
I listened
Max (14:44):
at
Dylan (14:44):
we have a trip in
James (14:45):
I I, I, yeah.
Max (14:47):
ASAP,
James (14:47):
then, and then that's exactly what happened.
Doug and I were talking about howto get Doug outta being on call 24 7
365.
'cause it felt bad for him.
Doug's actually a great guy.
He really is.
Um, but, you know,imagine Doug's surprised.
He walks into the officeand he goes, what do you do?
Because we saw each otheron the interview, right?
So I, he walks in the office, hegoes, what are you doing here?
And I'm like, Hey man,I'm your new boss, right?
So the point is, when you goand interview for a job, right?
(15:12):
I understand it's different whenyou're interviewing for an airline
job, but there's people that gonnainterview for non airline jobs too.
They're gonna go into corporateoperators, so on and so forth.
You're not necessarily justinterviewing for the job that
was listed on the job descriptionthat you're sitting in front of.
They, they might haveother positions for you.
We just, um, we're hiringa bunch of folks right now.
Uh, I just had to hire some newadministrative staff and I, um, we're
(15:35):
hiring some folks to fill out theapplications for clients on our behalf.
I had people apply tothat administrative role.
That we're way, way, way, way,way over qualified for it.
And I called them up on the phone.
Some of them are once again probablylisteners and said, Hey look, I
think you'd be a better fit overhere versus there, I had one person
interview for the admin role did sowell, I had a higher level position
(15:59):
that they're gonna be better for.
You never know when you walkinto an interview what other
opportunities they have.
Do not walk in the door sellingyourself short thinking, I'm
just interviewing for this slot.
There could be three or fouror five other positions.
The easiest example of that, thinkabout an executive jet management.
Think about a Solaris,think about a jet aviation.
You go in, you interview thataccount doesn't like you, that
(16:21):
chief pilot has 10 other accounts.
Do not walk in that door thinkingyou're just interviewing for the
job, you're interviewing for.
There's other opportunities out there.
Dylan (16:30):
Yeah, that's a good point.
James (16:31):
and, and so when you start thinking about that, right, that's where
you start getting the energy to fight.
But the biggest thingthat I didn't understand.
Until after I went through thisprocess is I, I got a job, a job
opportunity flying a citation in Ohio.
I got a job opportunity flying, uh,phenom in the Middle East, and I got a job
(16:52):
opportunity being a director of operationsfor a flight school in New York City.
Um, the jet job in Ohio, great.
But they weren't flying aton, so I didn't know if I was
gonna be on the chopping block.
Two months later, the one in theMiddle East, Eileen basically
said, Hey, look, you want to gomove over to the Middle East?
Make sure they have direct deposit.
I'm not going over there with you.
So there were some family things whereit was like, Hey, that's not gonna work.
Dylan (17:12):
Hmm,
James (17:14):
Um, some of the countries I was gonna be operating in and out
of didn't, probably weren't gonna betoo friendly to people like Eileen.
Um, and the whole concept of herwalking three steps behind me and always
agreeing with everything I say, didn'treally fit her personality either.
So, um,
so, so I took the job running theflight school, and honestly, all of my
friends, or I can't say all, but a lotof the people that I, that I worked
(17:37):
with at NetJet said I was an idiot.
They were like, dude, you went fromflying a jet to being basically
a glorified flight instructor.
It's gonna look horrible on your resume.
You're gonna have a bunch ofserious time in your resume.
Um, you know, you, you shouldbe applying to these jet jobs.
They ended up sitting at home collectingunemployment for about six or nine
months and then became regional fos.
(17:57):
So now they had this six or nine monthgap on their resume and then had to go
take basically the same effectively entrylevel job that they would've had to take
if they just did it right off the bat.
I went straight to the flight school.
When I applied to every other place afterthat, they went, whoa, you went from being
a niche that's pilot to going to be adirector of operations of a flight school.
(18:18):
Your egos in check.
We'll give you a shot.
People respect that.
They respect that willing.
So like if you're a spirit guy and youdecide to go be a direct entry captain
at a regional, or you decide to go bea regional fo or you decide to go be an
FO at a, or you even decide to go be aflight instructor, people respect that.
Work is work.
I don't care what the title is.
(18:41):
Everybody that's gonna interviewyou after you take that job
knows the sacrifice you took, thesacrifice you made to take that job.
going to make you stand out andthey're going to respect you for it.
No one's ever going to lookdown at you for taking work.
Don't limit yourself.
Don't hold yourself back.
(19:01):
Don't let your ego get in the wayof you being successful, right?
The least amount of employmentGA gap you can have, the better.
So if Spirit lets you go andthe only thing you can get is a
job flight instructing, take it.
You're better off being a flightinstructor than someone sitting at home.
(19:23):
That's the biggest thing that I didn't,I just didn't fully appreciate until I
went into interviews after that and peoplewere like, whoa, you didn't sit at home?
And I was like, no.
Why would I do that?
I.
Well, here's a stack of 500 resumesof people that did that, and that's
why you're sitting here right now.
So,
Dylan (19:42):
And I did the same.
You know what I did that, uh,James got laid off 2009 and waited.
Tried to find another job, had agreat interview with a, um, flying,
could have been a CFI in a kingair, like, which would've been good
time, you know, great experience.
Ah, but I've been flying
James (20:00):
yeah, it's not a jet man.
you can't do that
Dylan (20:02):
gonna look weird.
People are gonna question my move.
And so I passed on it.
And, you know, looking back, thatwas a big mistake and waited for
the next good thing to come along.
And you're right, man, if you'reout there and you're working,
something is gonna come to you.
But it's gonna be a, a, a long, hard andpainful process, uh, on your bank account
(20:22):
and your ego if you, uh, if you holdout for that, uh, golden opportunity.
James (20:27):
The other thing with the work.
Is, it gets you in frontof live human beings.
And it gets an answer to that questionnumber three of what do you do?
Um, and, and you'd be surprised howpeople underestimate how important
it's to be around other folks.
Uh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna modify thisstory a little little bit to, to
(20:48):
keep the person anonymous, Uh, but aclient went in to go get a haircut and
they're sitting there talking to thebarber and barber, what's your name?
Where are you from?
What do you do?
I'm a pilot.
Oh, that's weird.
The next person I have that I'mcutting their hair is Pilot two.
(21:11):
Our client goes, well, you know, oh cool.
Where do they fly?
I don't know.
So as they're getting their hairdone, the next person comes in
and the barber introduces them.
Chief pilot at a major airline.
Chief pilot goes, Hey man,uh, pleasure to meet you.
Do you, uh, you wanna stopon buying and get a tour?
Right?
(21:32):
You don't know where you'regonna run into people.
You don't know who you're gonna run into.
You don't know.
And I'm from Jersey, sowho's cousins with who?
Right?
You know who's, know who,who's somebody's, you know,
godmother, godfather, whatever.
Right?
You need to be out in front of people.
I don't care if you take a job on a rampat an FBO, you're gonna run into pilots.
(21:54):
Like, and, and the thing, the great thingis people don't have to do that right now.
It's not coronavirus, it's not 2008.
They, they're gonna get a flying job.
But they do have to get their mind wrappedaround the concept of a job is a job.
Go take one that keeps you in a cockpit.
Most of the jobs right now, I, I, Ican't say all, but a vast majority
(22:17):
of them pay a really good wage.
Right?
When I, I was, when I leftNet Jets, I was making 90.
When I took the flightschool job, I was making 60.
Everyone else focused onthe $30,000 pay cut I took.
Meanwhile, they're on unemploymentmaking $1,600 a month.
But you know, when you're on unemployment,you can sit at home on the couch.
(22:40):
You don't have to face anybody, right?
It's, it's, it's more comfortablewhen you're in that situation to
just collapse, crawl into a holeand don't come back out again.
But yeah, you, you probably, youmight take a pay cut, you might not.
It depends on if you go in and be adirect, you might take a pay increase
(23:00):
if you go become a direct venturecaptain, depending on where you
were and how much you were flying.
It doesn't matter.
Find something that you canafford to live your life on.
Put it on your resume.
If you can't afford to liveyour life on it, go take the job
that pays you the most amount ofmoney and cut your expenses back.
It is what it is.
But the sooner you get work on yourresume, the sooner you're gonna
get a better job that pays more.
(23:21):
It is just how it works.
Max (23:26):
So what's, uh, so what are you hearing James, right now amongst,
you know, with United sayingthey're, they're just kinda give
us a rundown of what, what, whatthe latest is you're hearing from
James (23:37):
the biggest difficulty, and I'm, look, we're talking to everybody, right?
So I, I'm not gonna, I can'tgive the entire breadth of
conversations that we're having,so I'm gonna generalize this a bit,
um, and not go into each individualcompany, but, but when you take a look
at the major airlines, what folks arelosing sight of is the hiring that's
(24:01):
happened over the past two years.
Where you're effectively seeing, youknow, between United, Delta, American,
and Southwest, it was around seven, 800pilots a month that were getting hired.
When you factored in SpiritFrontier, UPS, FedEx Atlas, that
number jumped up to about 1100.
Right?
So that's why you're seeing 12,13,000 pilots being hired per year.
(24:22):
That, which by the way is anastronomical amount of hiring.
Like, I mean, that's the nextclosest year was like 5,000.
Like it's not, that was aludicrous amount of hiring, right?
That, that said that people werelike, oh, this is gonna go on forever.
You're like, the day that started,we knew that wasn't gonna happen.
Um, that massive hiring was madeup of two different reasons.
(24:44):
One was growth, right?
Airlines were, they're taking onnew airframes, they're growing their
operations because of passenger demand.
The second, uh, variablewas, um, was retirements.
Well the growth is slowing right now.
(25:05):
Not because of demand, butbecause of aircraft availability.
Well, they still haveto hire for retirements.
So folks are looking at like, oh myGod, the United United's investigating
the FA or the A's investigating.
Well, yeah, they gotta do something'cause the media keeps picking it up.
But you frigging Southwest had a cowlingblow off an airplane the other day, right?
(25:27):
You think Delta hasn't lost atire off an airplane anytime soon.
Like there's nothing going on there that'snot going on anywhere, everywhere else.
It's just, what did themedia catch onto right now?
So
people are blowing that outta proportion.
There's then, you know, you see stuff likeUnited goes, Hey, we're, we're offering
people, uh, voluntary leaves of absences.
(25:48):
They've done that everyyear for the past 15 years.
It's a one month optional.
Hey, if you want to go take a aearly summer, go knock yourself out.
Well, because that's beingtaken in context of everything
else that's going on.
It's, oh my God, are they gonna furl?
So the fa iss looking into themand now they're doing a leave of
absence, are they gonna furlough?
No.
I mean, like, no, it's just,it, it happens every year.
(26:12):
So, so people are taking information outof context and then they're, they're, um,
correlating it and going, oh my God, thisis an indicator that things are going bad.
United is still hiring.
American is still hiring,Delta is still hiring.
Right.
Southwest, not hiring, but wewon't know till the end of the
(26:32):
year what that looks like for them.
Southwest is in a unique position in thatthey've gotta be very careful on what
Boeing is and is not able to deliver.
Right.
And Max, as you may know, uh,Southwest Post apparently like to work.
So you start stacking too many pilotssitting around and nobody can get
additional trips and pick up stuff.
(26:53):
It's gonna, it's gonna piss people off.
So, so, so Southwest has theirown unique situation that
they have to look at, right?
But Americans hitting peakretirements next year it's over 700.
United's just starting theiracceleration towards peak retirements.
They peak out in 2028.
They still have to, even if theydon't grow, if they take zero Boeings,
(27:15):
zero air buses, they still have tohire for the retirements regionals.
Last year, 500 jets parked.
They're parked 'cause theydon't have enough captains.
Guess what they need?
Direct entry captains.
Each of the regionals needsabout 20 per month minimum.
And they've been getting like five 10.
(27:36):
They need direct entry.
Captains NetJets, they've got somethinglike a two year backlog on pe on clients
they can take, or owners they can take on.
Sorry, NetJets, I apologize for callingclients, um, because of, you know, just
how quickly they can get pilots and howquickly they can get aircraft deliveries.
Flex Jet, they're hiring.
When you take a look atplaces like Wheels Up, right?
(27:58):
If, if somebody's not getting, if they'renot getting growth right, then they've
gotta look at how many people are leaving.
Not as many people are quitting Southwest,not at, not as many people are quitting.
Wheels up.
Not as many people are quitting Frontier.
So guess what?
If they're not growing and nobody'sleaving, hiring slows, not, oh my God.
(28:24):
They're slowing hiring, they'regetting ready to furlough.
It's, oh my God, the next tier upisn't stealing their pilots anymore.
They don't have to hire.
So you've gotta find somebodythat's either expanding they have
jets that they can get right.
Corporate, they have jetsthey can get, those guys are
hiring for expansion, right?
(28:45):
Then you take a look atwho's hiring for retirements.
There's gonna be Legacy Airlines,part 91, corporate flight departments.
People are still aging out andleaving as long as the passenger
man stays there, which it's there.
You can go look at the TSA numbers.
As long as the passenger man staysthere, hiring's not going to stop.
(29:06):
And when you take a look at thingslike Spirit, it'll, if I remember, if
I understand correctly, and I apologizeif I get this wrong, but they're
deferring aircraft deliveries, right?
Don't
worry, somebody's gonna take thoseand then they're gonna expand and
they're gonna hire for that like.
It.
Take a look at whathappened with FedEx and UPS.
FedEx gave up, uh, gaveup the USPS contract.
(29:26):
UPS took it.
They're not hiring 300 pilots,right, like in this market, because
the passenger demand is there.
One company's loss willbe another company's gain.
This is not 2010, 2008, 2001.
This is not a meltdown.
It's a slowdown.
It is a crisis of expectations.
(29:48):
People expected that 1100 pilotswere gonna get hired per month to
infinity and beyond, and now wereonly gonna get 500 a month hired.
This jobs good ones.
Like
Max (30:04):
James.
So you're saying we should notpanic, is that what you're saying?
James (30:08):
I'm saying, if I lost my job tomorrow, I would go apply and
be a direct entry captain, and I
would hold my head up highand I would sit in the.
Max (30:16):
another one.
I see.
James (30:18):
E Exactly.
I would.
And, but, but I have the benefit of,I, we, I told this, I told this story
on a, on an episode with you guys awhile ago, but I, I went through the
experience when I got laid off fromNetJets, I had an identity crisis, right.
That I, I really, I cannotdescribe how embarrassing and
(30:40):
shameful it felt to not have a job.
We're out to dinner, me and my parentsand Eileen grammar school teacher walks
in that I haven't seen in 15 years.
But because of the way I look,you can, I pretty much look the
same way I do when I was five.
Um, and, uh, he, HeyJames, how's it going?
What are you doing?
Uh, you know, and visit my parents.
(31:00):
Oh, cool.
What, what do you, whatdo you do for work?
I'm a pilot.
Max (31:03):
Or I'm a
James (31:04):
laughs and goes, you're not a pilot.
Max (31:07):
not a pilot.
James (31:10):
So, so I had to go through the experience of
sliding under the table, right?
And, and basically trying to pick myselfback up and figure out who the hell am I?
And, and it took probably about twoor three years to where I realized,
oh, who I am as a person is differentthan what I do for a living.
That sounds really, really simple, butas a guy that owns a career development
(31:30):
company, right, who's helped allthese people get hired by, by Legacy
Airlines who's helped all these people.
Uh, become directors of operations at part91 flight departments, who's helped all
these people and negotiate their salaries.
Right?
Um, and if I got laid off tomorrow,I'd go straight to regional and be a
direct entry captain, and I'd be finewith it because my responsibility
(31:52):
is to provide for my family.
It doesn't matter.
That silly little hierarchy thatwe have as pilots and airplanes and
airplane, if you're getting paid tofly it, congratulations, enjoy it.
And if not, you'll dosomething else till you can.
But right now you don'thave to worry about that.
That's all in your head.
(32:14):
I, if I had to get on a regionaljet, or I had to get on name x, y, z
company that, that pilots make fun ofbecause it's, it's beneath them, right?
I'm not, I'm not holding my head low.
I.
I've got a job, man.
I'm flying airplanes.
I'm gonna take that opportunity and ifI'm flying with folks that are younger,
that less experience, I'm gonna sit in thecockpit and mentor the crap out of them.
(32:36):
At least make it fun and enjoyable for me.
Right?
Like you can take these opportunity, andI'm not trying to sound cheesy with this,
like I'm saying, this is somebody thathad to go through it and figure out how
do I, how do I take a situation that isn'twhat I thought isn't what I wanted, and
make it so that it's enjoyable for me?
Yeah.
Start mentoring people.
Get involved in the union, right?
(32:56):
Go, go take a corporate job and golearn the customer service aspect of it.
Go learn how to deal withconflict with people, and you're
gonna learn something new.
Enjoy it.
But you're gonna be flying airplanes.
You're gonna be paid well to do it.
That's what you should focus on.
Not, oh my God, I'm flying a KingAir, or I'm flying a citation,
or I'm flying a regional jet.
Not an Airbus.
It it, it's okay.
Don't worry.
You'll get back into one if you want to.
(33:17):
You might not want to, but ifyou do, you'll get back into one.
Dylan (33:19):
Let's take a time out from our conversation to talk about
another friend of ours, Timothy P.
Pope.
Who's a certified financial plannerdedicated to guiding professional pilots.
Through smart financialplanning, whether it's saving for
retirement investment management.
A seamless military transition.
We're strategic tax planning.
Tim is your trusted financial partner.
(33:40):
Join Tim, as he leads engagingdiscussions on personal finance
strategies for professionalpilots on the pilot money podcast.
Timothy P.
Pope helping professionalpilots make the most out of life
Okay.
Uh, what about like, just in general,if you're at Spirit and you're seeing
downgrades, you're seeing it, maybeyou're not gonna get furloughed, but
(34:03):
you're more like, man, am I in a, a placethat is, has potential in the long run?
Or how do you process that?
Um, kind of as, as a, I don'tknow, what would you call a pilot
that's remaining on the list, butsort of like questioning things.
James (34:21):
Yeah.
So I apologize for all the people thatI may piss off by saying this, but
you're lucky when you get furloughedbecause they made the decision for you.
You, you're not having to sitthere and agonize, should I stay?
Should I go?
So, so on and so forth, and, and you'regetting your head start on whatever
the next place is you're gonna go to.
It's that second and third wavethat really takes it in the
(34:42):
shorts, because guess what?
The first guys that got furloughed,those are now your captains.
They're now senior toyou wherever you're go.
'cause you're following them afterwards,
Right.
So.
When I got laid off from from NetJets, it was like, man, this sucks.
Like, those guys are lucky.
And you're like, no,because you got laid off.
You're going someplace new, you're gonnabe making decent money, flying airplanes,
(35:06):
gaining seniority, so on and so forth.
They're, they're losing seniority.
Guys that get down.
And the downgrade, when you furlough,there's typically downgrades too.
So you're talking 50% pay cuts.
You're talking about gettingdisplaced from your base.
Now you gotta commute.
Now you're talking about costsgoing up because you, um, you're
having to get a crash pad.
Your flying goes down, so you'renot getting as much, you know, their
(35:29):
block hours are going down, so you'renot gonna be getting as much, um,
I'll just call it overtime, justacross the board to make it easy.
Uh, everybody, every company hasa, you know, a TFP green slip,
whatever you wanna call it, right.
Um.
So, so the folks that are leftbehind have a little bit more of
an agonizing decision because it'slike, should I stay or should I go?
The guys that got cut loose,they're gonna end up with jobs.
(35:50):
They're gonna, it's gonna be okay.
Um, so if, if you're a guy thatgets, that gets cut, congratulations.
Now you're start moving in that next
direction that you want to go
Dylan (36:00):
world's your oyster.
Yeah.
James (36:01):
Well, and the, and the benefit that I had, so when I got laid off, I
made a commitment to myself that I wasgonna run 110% in another, in as many
different directions as I could, becauseI wanted to get myself into the best
possible position that when NetJetscalled me back, I could make a decision.
Is NetJets the better option oris where I'm at the better option?
(36:21):
But if you don't go 110% to getyourself into the best position
that you can, you can end up foolingyourself that when spirit calls back,
you go, oh, this is a better deal.
It might not be.
It's just, you just didn't push it hardenough to get yourself something better.
So I ended up not goingback after furlough.
It ended up being a betterdeal where I landed.
I, um, for me and my familyhad a better quality of life.
(36:46):
I was making more money.
I had way better health bene, I hadbetter benefits, like it, the whole thing.
I ended up in a way better position.
So I, I went to the new thingthat I went to is where I stayed.
A lot of my friends went back.
Just depended on, on,on, where you ended up.
Dylan (37:00):
Yeah, max gave me that advice.
I remember when I got let go from a, um.
Company.
He's like, you, he basically waslike, treat that job as it's dead.
This is for a corporate operatormaybe, where it's not so much
like seniority based in furlough,but he's like, set that aside.
That's behind you now.
Don't be like, well, they could call back
James (37:18):
Now it's over.
Dylan (37:19):
And maybe just like it's over move
James (37:22):
they're dead.
Dylan (37:23):
and it, and if they call you back who you can deal with it at that
point, but don't, don't go sitting there.
And, and I think that's, that'ssolid advice for, like you're saying,
you've just gotta press forwardas much as you can and you'll see
James (37:37):
I, I interviewed at a, uh, I, I'm not gonna name the company,
but I interviewed at a companyright after I got laid off from,
from NetJets for a flying job.
And I made it all the way tothe last stage and they said,
okay, we're gonna bring you in.
It's a formality.
We're going to introduceyou to the, to the pilots.
And then from there,pretty much job is yours.
I got a call, no joke.
Seven minutes later itsaid, Hey, just kidding.
(37:58):
We changed our mind.
We're going with another guy.
I called my mother.
She took every one of their products outof the house, threw 'em in the garbage.
Those products have neverbeen in the house ever again.
When someone shoots you downor lets you go, they are dead.
It's over.
Let it go.
Move on.
Right?
They on to this day, thathappened 15 years ago.
(38:19):
There is not one product fromthat company in my parents' house.
She will not even if they
give it to her for free, like on anairline, she'll throw it in the garbage.
They're
dead.
It's over.
Dylan (38:31):
That's good advice though.
It really is.
James (38:33):
And I won't name the company 'cause I don't want to kill the
stock, you know, with the listener group
banning them.
You know what I'm saying?
Dylan (38:40):
Uh, James, we've got some flight advice from some listeners.
Anything else you want to hit?
Any other pearls of wisdom youwanna dispense, uh, to the listeners
before we jump into, uh, advice?
James (39:01):
Can you hear me okay?
Okay.
Uh, the big thing is look, thatsupport structure is really important.
Um, you gotta have people around youthat are forcing you to get up every day.
Uh, for me, that's Eileen.
Like I said, some people it'stheir parents, some people it's
a husband, some people it's wife.
But you have to have someone that holdsyou accountable every day to get up, put
your clothes on, get up, take a shower,put your clothes on and do something.
(39:24):
Um, look, obviously if they need helpwith resumes, if they need help filling
out the applications, if they need uh,strategy questions, give us a call,
um, we can handle that aspect of it.
But honestly speaking, the firstthing is to get that support structure
in place so that you keep one footin front of the other every day.
'cause you're gonna have highsand you're gonna have lows.
(39:45):
And the rejection sucks.
That's the hardest part to get through.
Not everybody was as fortunate as me.
They weren't born with red hairand had to date in high school.
So they're not used to rejection.
Right.
But I don't care how many,like, it hurts to get rejected.
That's why, that's why when we'reworking with folks, that's why they
have a phone number they can call.
'cause when they get that rejection.
(40:06):
If their husband or wife give 'em ahug, we give 'em a hug and go, Hey,
look, here's what you can do next.
Here's how to do this.
Here's who to talk to,here's yada, yada, yada.
So I can't overstate how important it'sto have that support structure in place.
You, you really need peoplethat you can call when you're
panicking to help keep you puttingone foot in front of the other.
Max (40:26):
I've been
doing that for Dylan for years.
James (40:29):
Exactly.
Dylan (40:30):
he's my rock.
He's my rock.
James (40:35):
The
butter for your roll.
Dylan (40:37):
Um, but I'll tell you what, it is important and, and like what you
said before, James, not seven people,
one or two, because you, you're,you'll get a million different
pieces of advice from pilot.
You know, every pilot loves to dispenseadvice and none of them necessarily
are wrong or bad, but you just kindof gotta pick what you're gonna do
(40:58):
and then, and then move forward with
James (41:00):
the, the easiest way to explain what it's like to
get too many mentors early on.
So you imagine you're gonna gofor your private pilot certificate
and every lesson you use adifferent instructor on landings.
It uh, it's not that the instructorsare giving you bad techniques.
It's you gotta pick one pony and ride it.
Once you get on track, once youget to that point to where you're
(41:22):
getting ready to solo, you have asecond person step in and check you.
You don't have 10 otherpeople step in and check you.
It's the same thingwith mentorship in life.
If you grab too many mentors, right?
It's just gonna get confusing.
'cause everybody's gonnahave a different take.
The other thing that's really important,and this is something that we do when
we talk to folks, you wanna make surethe mentors that you seek out are not
(41:42):
coaching you to do what's right for them.
They're coaching you todo what's right for you.
Right?
So magically if you grab somebodythat flew for X, y, Z airline,
they're gonna talk you down thatpath to go to that airline, right?
Because it's what they understand.
You need somebody who,who can listen to you.
(42:02):
Repeat back to you what yousaid in their own, in their own
words, and then go, okay, here'sthe strategy on how to do that.
It may not work for them, it may not work.
Meaning the person that's mentoring you,it may not work for them personally.
It may not work for their family,but they're guiding you down the path
that works for you and your family.
When I got laid off from Net Jets,I didn't have kids so I could
relocate anywhere in the country.
(42:23):
I had a bunch of friendsthat did have kids.
They couldn't, if I got thewrong mentor, they were gonna
coach me on how to stay local.
I spread out my, my job prospects andended up applying to jobs in other
states, and that's how I ended up gettingjobs much quicker than everybody else.
So just kind of keep that in mind.
Think about it like grabbing a newinstructor for each landing lesson.
(42:45):
It's not gonna go well.
Dylan (42:47):
Oh, that's a good analogy.
Okay.
Speaking of mentorship andadvice, uh, we're gonna have
two mentors help you here.
We've got Raven Careers andEagle Careers, uh, standing by to
James (42:59):
Oh, oh, my biggest competitor.
Dylan (43:01):
you're one of your biggest competitors.
We're looking to turn a profit this year.
James (43:04):
Guys are stealing market share left and right
from us
Dylan (43:06):
exactly, yeah.
Okay.
I will read this one and then, um, we'lltake advice from Max and from James.
This will be good.
We'll get two instructorsfrom one Landing.
Um, okay.
This, this, this comes from, uh, a JetBlue Pilot says, uh, currently working
for certain Blue Tail major airline.
I have eight years of seniorityand I'm a recent Airbus captain.
(43:28):
I live in base.
The job has been awesomeand I'm happy here.
Overall day-to-Day life is great.
The past couple of years, however,have been filled with uncertainty.
Recent blockage of the spirit acquisitionhas left us in an unknown state.
Couple that with the news ofCorporate Raider, Carl Icahn gaining
seats on our board and aircraftdelivery and Pratt engine issues.
There is.
Understood fear and doubtamongst the pilot group.
(43:50):
We're seeing stagnation in seniorityand career progression compared
to other airlines out there.
In the past few years, I'vewatched friends and colleagues
leave for the legacies.
And seeing them rocketup the seniority list.
I try not to compare myself to othersand while I'm happy for them, it's
definitely a bit deflating hearing.
Your buddy who just got hired at a legacyis already a wide body fo or captain in
their base of choice, almost out of thegate or another is celebrating their
(44:13):
profit sharing check and buying a boat.
Ha.
While here we're talking aboutdisplacement and lack of profitability,
my question is approaching age 40.
Would it be ridiculous to give it allup, start over at the bottom of a huge
seniority list like aa, United or Delta?
Purely because of company uncertainty.
I live within three hours of NYC.
Being in the junior base would definitelyhelp my seniority, but the idea of
(44:35):
driving to and B, based in the NYCarea sounds like an absolute torture.
I also will absolutely not commute.
My fear is missing out on the hiringboom now and going down with the
ship if things don't turn around.
The lack of good news during the boomingtime in the airline market has us all
concerned for our futures thoughts.
Max (44:55):
FOMO strikes again.
Dylan (44:57):
That's right.
James (45:00):
This is a risk discussion, so I'm gonna talk about it from that perspective,
uh, because there's a lot of peoplethat are having this conversation.
So you have a, a, uh, let's, I don'tknow, use for example, JetBlue, right?
So you, uh, per se, let's say you havea guy who's an eight year captain.
Um, so when people run the calculuson this, they typically just run
(45:22):
it from the perspective of what'sthe chances I get furloughed.
And if you go back to the conversationwe had a little while ago about spirit,
while that sucks, that's kind ofthe easier of the positions to be in
'cause somebody else made the decision.
For you as an eight year captain,if JetBlue does a furlough, do
you get downgraded to fo, do youget displaced outta your base?
Are you now, like there's a lot of otherliabilities that somebody as an eight
(45:45):
year captain at JetBlue has, right?
You can use, uh, a roundnumber of 20%, right?
That's, that's what they assume,you know, in terms of furloughs.
But what they don't then do isgo, okay, 20% downgrades, right?
So in this case, spirit used alittle less than 10% of their pilots.
Is, is, is roughly, I think whatthat number works out to be.
(46:06):
And if you notice the amount of downgradesthat Spirit is doing is basically
equivalent to the amount of furloughs.
So now you run that calculation,okay, I'm an eight year captain.
Probably not gonna get let go, right?
There's no guarantees in life,but as an eight year captain, the
probability that you're gonna getlow, get let go, is, is much lower.
Okay, cool.
So now what does my life looklike if I get downgraded?
(46:29):
Okay, if I was gonna get displaced,where would I be displaced?
Two, what do I think theamount of flying would be?
I, I would be getting so on and so forth.
Okay?
So, so that's, that's the oneside of the equation risk wise.
The other side of the equation is,okay, so where do you want to go?
Right?
So if you're taking a look at Delta,if you're taking a look at American,
(46:49):
if you're taking a look at United,and I'm just using those three right
now because Southwest isn't hiringright, and I'm just gonna stick with
passenger carriers to make it easy.
Um, now you take a look at,okay, well Americans hitting peak
retirements next year, right?
Um, Delta's hired a lot of young folks.
If United's not even hittheir peak retirement yet,
(47:10):
they're accelerating into it.
Well, you can start to see that yourrisk profile is gonna be a little
bit different each carrier you go to.
Right.
You could go to a United, effectivelygo into a direct entry captain
role back in the New York andhe said he lives in New York.
Right.
Dylan (47:26):
No, I'm thinking he actually lives in Boston
James (47:29):
Okay.
Yeah, that's a
Dylan (47:30):
said New York was a three hour drive.
James (47:32):
Yeah, that's,
yeah.
He's not in DC Um, so, uh, that,that's the tough one, right?
'cause the guys that live in Boston,right, that's a crappy commute.
And, and I mean, the drive sucks.
You're not getting on a ferry and the
airline commute sucks and it'sso expensive in that area.
The country, you're probablynot flying to Cessna back and
forth between Logan and, and JFK.
(47:55):
Um, I guess he could live in upstate NewYork as well, if he's in upstate New York.
Driving on the Jersey side downto Newark is a little bit easier.
Just haven't
been from that area.
But an anyway, um.
Yeah, you, you have that, you have thatability to, to potentially make a direct
entry captain where you're not gonnatake a pay cut, um, your schedule cuts.
(48:16):
Like you're not gonna take asmany cuts in quality of life, pay
and schedule by making that move.
So it just boils down to how they perceivethe risk of, of if everything went bad
and they got downgraded, would they ratherlive with that or would they rather live
with, Hey look, I want to go make the jumpand there's gonna be a little bit of, of
(48:37):
discomfort, but maybe a bid wide body.
Right.
And you're doing less of that commutingand, um, so it, does that make any sense
in terms of how to look at that risk
Max (48:47):
Yeah, it's just, it's an impossible, it's just such a hard
thing to evaluate because you're tryingto, you're trying to make guesses
on the airline industry, which ishistorically very difficult to predict,
James (48:59):
That's the exact opposite way of doing it.
So people are trying togauge it based on the win.
I would encourage you togauge it based on the loss.
'cause the, you can't predictthe win, you can't predict what's
gonna change in the future.
But you can take a look at, if I wasgonna risk losing this by staying
versus risk losing this by going,which one would be more palatable?
(49:21):
Which one would be less uncomfortable?
Which one would my family tolerate better?
And that's, that's thepony you ride at the end.
Look, none of us will know until weretire and you look backwards as to what
would've and would not have worked out.
Max (49:34):
Yeah.
James (49:35):
But it's, it's really what are you, what are you willing to risk losing?
And if you live in Boston and yougo, the commute's really valuable,
the not commuting's really valuable.
And I'd rather be a senior first officerthan a junior cap, a senior first officer
in, um, Boston than a junior captain inNew York than, than that, than stay there.
(49:55):
And if they downgradeyou, they downgrade you.
It's still gonna be better than thealternative, but it gets you out.
Having that clear y gets you outta that.
Yeah, but my buddy's overhere as a captain doing X.
No, you're, you're
exactly right.
Commuting to an airport, you don'twant commute to flying an airplane.
You don't wanna fly to locationsyou don't want to go to.
But other than that, you're right.
(50:17):
And
you're gonna see, just real quick,you're gonna see now that everything's
slowing down a bit, there's gonna be alot of buyers remorse, people that took
certain jobs because everything wasmoving fast and everything was going up
into the right and, and now what peopleare left with is a boatload of money
to do something they don't want to do.
And it turns out the moneydoesn't doesn't cut it.
Max (50:39):
Yeah.
And then I think.
I was just gonna say, once you makethat call and you sit down and you
evaluate your options and, and youdecide, okay, this is what I'm gonna
do, then stick with the decision.
Don't look back, don't quit looking,you know, and reevaluating it a hundred
times because you're just gonna driveyourself nuts unless there's something
substantial that changes, right.
The, the, the thought and then maybe it's10 to reevaluate, but, but I think that's
(51:01):
what a lot of people do is they're like,okay, I'm staying, I'm gonna do this.
And then a couple months later they'relike, oh, did I make the right decision?
Like, should I, you know,and, and I think that's
James (51:09):
the, the clar, the clarity on the why drives that, right?
So, so I know for me, I know theschedule is really important.
I know having weekends offroutinely is very important.
Um, I know that the healthcare andthe retirement are really important.
Um, and I know that the hoursthat I fly are really important.
(51:31):
That's why I fly King Air, right?
I, I hate to break it to you guys.
I'm not, not at a legacy airline'cause I can't get there.
I'm not, not in a corporate flightdepartment 'cause I can't get there.
Right?
Like, I'm fortunate that I have a lot ofpeople that are willing to vouch for me.
I'm flying when I'm flying becauseI've made the decision that that's
what I wanna fly where I wanna fly.
(51:51):
Not 'cause I can't godo something else, but.
Every time one of you guys goes,look at what I made last year.
I do have to ask myself whyam I doing what I'm doing?
And when I go, all I gotta do isgo, Hey Max, uh, how many weekends?
You know, did you dothis or did you do this?
Or did you do this?
And when you say, no, I cansit right back down and go back
to my potato salad in peace.
(52:13):
Um, if you don't have a clear why,when somebody else goes, look at this
shiny thing over here, it could bepay, it could be schedule, it could be
quality life, could be airplane type.
I don't care what it is, right?
Look at this shiny thing over here.
You're gonna chase it likea dog chasing a school bus
because you're not clear on why.
Anything you do, I don't care what it is.
Any company you go to, you'regiving something up to be there.
(52:35):
You're sacrificing something to be there.
You're compromising onsomething to be there.
Understanding why you'recompromising, that really helps
you not having heartburn every day,swallowing the decision you made.
Dylan (52:48):
Okay.
I want to, I want to lookat a different aspect of it.
Um.
Elon Musk, one of the
James (52:56):
Oh, this is gonna be good.
Dylan (52:57):
yeah, he developed like self-driving and all this stuff
is because he said being stuckin traffic is like soul sucking.
Like there's somethingthat just destroys you.
And I can compare that to being ina small or shrinking base that I was
there in Los Angeles, you know, in thisbase that was like trying to hold on.
(53:20):
But they were like alwayscontracting and cutting lines
and cutting, flying and stuff.
That was soul sucking because itwas like, every month it was like
more bad news and more bad news.
It's like, yeah, I live here andI drive, you know, 10 minutes
there, but the deal just keepsgetting worse and worse and worse.
And that to me can make it really hard,especially when there are people that
(53:41):
are, are moving up in the other direction.
So I think moving backwardscan just be so difficult.
And IE, even if you have clear on the why.
Yeah, man, that can be really hard.
The stagnation.
Does that make sense what I'm saying?
James (53:57):
It does if the Y's not strong enough
and, and, and,
Dylan (54:00):
The why better be really strong if you're gonna be in a stagnant situation.
James (54:05):
it does because, um, so look, I'll just take the job that I'm doing.
I mean, the pay increases that youguys have been seeing or that airline
guy's been seeing versus what we, Imean, it's not even the same ballpark.
Like, you know, we're talking $5,000 payincreases versus $50,000 pay increase,
like, you know, $5,000 pay increase versusa hundred thousand dollars pay increase.
(54:28):
I mean, it's not even inthe same stratosphere.
And, and if you don't have a strongwhy that's going to eat at you.
I mean, that's literally goingto suck the soul out of you.
But.
When, when you get that burning feelingin the dead center of your chest, right?
(54:49):
And, and you, you wanna walk into aroom and just scream at somebody, right?
And then you go, okay,why am I doing this?
And for, for, and I'm notbeing cheesy when I say this.
For me, it's a family decision.
Like it's really important to me that Iget to eat a certain way, that I get to go
(55:10):
to sleep at the same time every night thatI wake up at the same time every morning,
that I fly the same schedule every day.
It's very predictable in terms of whatdays I work and what days I don't work.
It's very predictable about what happenswhen something in the economy goes bad.
We just keep moving on.
Right?
And when I look at that, and then Ican have conversations with Eileen
and go, what is that worth to you?
(55:33):
And she'll go, okay, good.
So let's talk about if you went to.
X, y, Z company.
Yeah, you would have all this overhere, but you would give up all that.
And here's what that costis gonna be for us at home.
If you, if, if the Y is 'cause the colorof the paint on the tail, it's gonna hurt.
Right?
If, if there's, if there's other thingsthat they're not giving you or other
(55:57):
things that you're not clear on thatthey're giving you that are important.
Yeah, you're right.
Man.
When stuff starts slidingdownhill, it hurt.
'cause you, 'cause you, youfeel like you're dressed up
like a rodeo clown every day.
Like you're the joke of the room.
Everybody else is doinggreat and you're the idiot.
But the reason it feels that wayis because when somebody goes,
I'm making $500,000 a year,you go, yeah, that's right.
(56:19):
And I wake up at 7:00 AM every morningand I eat a nice warm breakfast and
I just got my cholesterol checkedand it's healthy 'cause I haven't
eaten in a terminal in 15 years.
That's not good enough for you,then what I'm doing isn't the
right thing for you, right?
That why has to be strong enoughthat when somebody turns to you
(56:41):
and goes, I'm smarter than you.
They're not literally saying that.
But when someone goes, I'mmaking a half a million dollars
a year, look at this schedule.
What's effectively being received is,look how much smarter I'm than you are.
Look how much moresophisticated I'm than you are.
Right?
The ability to work through thatis, I appreciate that and here's wh
here's why I'm doing what I'm doing,which relates to, here's why what
(57:03):
you're doing isn't right for me.
Dylan (57:07):
That's well said.
Anything, anything to add, max?
Max (57:12):
No, I think he, uh, summed it up.
That's good.
Dylan (57:17):
Find your why.
That's good.
James (57:19):
It w So in interview prep, that's why so many people
have been having trouble.
'cause he's like, whydo you wanna work here?
And they're like, I don't know.
Because they were chasing status.
Shiny airplane, biggerairplane paycheck, right?
And then you get there andyou're like, oh, great, I'm here.
And then something bad happensand you go, shit, why am I here?
Yeah, you're about to find out right now.
Dylan (57:41):
all right.
That was flight advice with the guru.
What did you call 'em?
The lyrical gangster of, I don't
Max (57:49):
know.
I just, I
Dylan (57:50):
was.
Max (57:50):
remember.
It
James (57:51):
gang, the lyrical gangster of career counseling
Dylan (57:54):
There it was,
James (57:55):
and strategy.
Dylan (57:56):
dropped some rhymes.
I have like five different sections.
I'm gonna click off into little videos.
James.
That was great.
Um, folks know that if they needyour help, especially if they're,
uh, looking at maybe a furloughor, uh, making a pivot right now.
Uh, we'll have all of yourcontact information, including
your calendar in the show notes.
They can click and get on, uh, geton your schedule and, uh, seek some
(58:19):
mentorship, uh, as we, as we mentioned.
So appreciate your time, James.
Uh, anything you want to addto before we get outta here?
James (58:26):
Nope.
Um, I do appreciate folks reaching out.
I do.
It is take, it's taken aboutanywhere between a week to two
weeks, again, on our scheduleright now, just because of demand.
Um, do apologize for that.
Uh, but, um, we're spending about 30to 45 minutes with each person that
puts time on our calendar to talk with'em, to make sure we understand where
they're at, what we can do to help,and what the right strategy is for 'em.
(58:47):
Don't spend money before you knowwhat you're tracking towards.
It's a waste, right?
You need to have a strategy.
You need to have a clear direction beforeyou start throwing money at the problem.
So, uh, I look forwardto working with you guys
Dylan (59:00):
Are you gonna join our book club?
James, are you gonna readchapter one of Hard Landing?
Have you
James (59:04):
and all that.
I, so I do a nine hour roundtrip drive per week, so I'm
gonna start listening to it.
Audio book in the car.
Dylan (59:10):
Okay,
good.
Just, just read chapter one andthen we'll, we'll discuss it.
I think you're gonna like it,
Max (59:17):
we
James (59:17):
put it on half speed.
Dylan (59:21):
chapter one.
Alright, that is gonna do it.
James Ode, Raven Careers.
Thank you so much.
Adios.
James (59:28):
Thank you.
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