June 4, 2025 • 30 mins
Abundance Community member Kimberleigh and I discuss the challenges she’s navigating around marketing and networking in today’s economic climate. We explore ways to stay connected with clients and expand her reach, including workshops, group therapy sessions, and targeted content focused on issues like chronic stress. We also discuss the potential for collaborations with other healthcare professionals and consider how intensives might fit into her practice. Our conversation centers on staying responsive to shifting market trends while continuing to provide valuable, effective support to clients.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:06):
(Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) Hi, welcome to the Abundant Practice Podcast.
I'm Allison from Abundance Practice Building.
I have a nearly diagnosable obsession with helping
therapists build sustainable, joy-filled private practices, just
like I've done for tens of thousands of
therapists across the world.
I'm excited to help you too.
If you want to fill your practice with
(00:26):
ideal clients, we have loads of free resources
and paid support.
Go to abundancepracticebuilding.com slash links.
All right, on to the show.
So I've talked about therapy notes on here
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(00:47):
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(01:08):
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(01:30):
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(01:53):
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(02:16):
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(02:37):
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(03:00):
Hello.
Hey, how are you?
I'm okay.
How are you?
I'm all right.
All right.
Yeah.
What would be helpful?
So I am thinking a lot about just
a marketing in this current climate.
I'm thinking about the group from, was it
last week or two weeks ago, when you
(03:20):
had said like, it's just different than it's
ever really been.
And you had talked about, because I think
I signed up for this before that.
So you had talked about like how networking
seems to be the most effective one right
now.
And I feel like networking is something that
I have put so much energy and effort
(03:41):
into and it's just not performing how I
would hope it would.
Okay.
And if right now that's the best one,
I'm feeling like something maybe has to change
there because I don't know what else to
do.
Okay.
Are you forming actual relationships when you're networking?
Like are these people becoming friends?
Yes.
Yes.
(04:01):
Are you networking with other people who need
clients?
Yes.
And no.
Okay.
I feel like I've got a good relationship
with a couples counselor and then a dietitian
that like we share like five or six
clients.
Like it's really good.
They know a lot about my work because
they work with a lot of my clients.
The couples counselor has sent some back my
(04:24):
way, which has been really good.
And they have been perfect matches.
Awesome.
And she's a couples counselor.
She doesn't carry as big of a caseload
as I do.
So it's not like she can send all
of her clients to me.
Right.
There is a limit in the dietitian.
I've networked with a lot of them and
because I do refer to them often and
(04:45):
I just keep hearing that most of their
people already have therapists when they get to
them.
So it's, well, it's helpful for me to
know who they are.
It doesn't seem to be as reciprocal.
So I have friendships with them, but they
just don't have people to refer to me
because their already hooked up with this by
the time they start that.
So yeah, just feeling kind of stuck in
(05:08):
some spaces.
And then when I think about other providers,
there's, there's this stickiness around like doctors in
the big healthcare systems want to refer within
there and they're not doing it anyway.
They have referral coordinators that are doing it
within systems.
(05:29):
I had met with a acupuncturist cause I'm
trained in EFT.
And so I was like, Ooh, tapping acupuncture,
that could be a good connection.
And we got along great.
She did refer some to me, but then
the owner of the practice that she works
at was like, Oh, we can't be promoting
just one therapist.
We have to be like, whatever.
(05:49):
Yeah.
So I'm just feeling stuck in some of
those systematic things too.
And I guess I'm just kind of like,
feel like I'm spinning my wheels.
Cause I'm doing all the things, maintaining the
relationships, reaching out to new people every month.
You'll stuck.
Yeah.
Have you talked to any independently owned psychiatric
(06:11):
providers?
Yes.
I've talked with a couple of them.
I'm trying to think one, I didn't even
offer to meet her for lunch and follow
up.
And she was just very busy, but we
did at least like chat on the phone
a couple of times.
Yeah.
I've only found a couple of them though.
Just they're harder to find right now.
(06:34):
Yes.
So I've got two of them that are
on my list.
I do struggle sometimes to refer back to
them because they are also private pay.
And for some of my clients, they can
do that.
And then for some of them, they're wanting
to do that in network just because that
has a higher price tag than me.
(06:56):
And so, yes, but I have two of
them that I do have on my list
and have connected with.
Okay.
And have they sent anybody that's stuck?
No.
Talk about your ideal client and what they're
going through right now.
Has it shifted or changed at all in
this climate?
The ones that I have that are my
(07:17):
ideal clients are definitely tightening their budgets for
sure.
Because they have spaced out a little bit
in terms of our frequency and scaling back
some other parts of their life.
But in terms of outside of that, no,
I mean, they're still feeling just like a
lot of overthinking, a lot of that perfectionism
(07:39):
and a lot of just kind of feeling
stuck in, especially right now, feeling like some
things are like a no-win situation.
So what is the best thing to do
here?
And the exhaustion of it all is certainly
a thing.
I know that the clients that are seeing
me are certainly enjoying that.
(08:00):
I've been bringing in more holistic things now
that I've finished yoga teacher training and Reiki
training, all of some things.
I've been bringing that in and that's been
really positive and really great, especially because their
overthinking brains aren't going to think their way
out of the stuff that's going on right
now.
And I don't know if that's something to
lean into more, but I keep thinking about
(08:21):
in all of the things that you've done
in the trainings, it's not the modality that
is going to break.
So I don't want to lean too heavy
into like, oh, here's what I do because
that's not maybe where I should be focusing.
I mean, I think it's, there are people
who are looking for Reiki practitioners, for instance,
(08:43):
that didn't realize like, oh, I could get
some therapy with that, like therapy with the
side of Reiki.
So I think it also comes down to
what your ideal client is looking for and
how you can get in front of them.
Yeah.
I'm thinking about the other body-based or
slightly crunchy or like those kinds of practitioners.
(09:07):
How do you feel about speaking?
I'd be open to it if I can
find opportunities to do that.
That part doesn't really bother me.
Yeah.
Did we talk about that during group?
I don't think so.
At least I didn't mention speaking.
Maybe somebody else.
I think somebody did ask about what to
charge for doing that or how to put
it out there.
(09:27):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So like, I wonder if there's a way
to get in front of people's people.
So for instance, I worked with a functional
medicine doctor here in town and they had
group sessions online.
They work with people all over the country,
group sessions online where you could tune into
some kind of expert on something or learn
(09:48):
more about some body issue or whatever, you
know, like gut health or that kind of
thing.
I wonder if there might be an opportunity
similar to that, like, I'm thinking naturopaths, functional
medicine docs, if there are any healing co
-op or anything like that.
Yeah.
I have connected with quite a few functional
(10:10):
medicine people and I have referred to them.
I have maintained connections with them and I
haven't really seen anything come back from them.
Do they have any therapists or health coaches
on staff?
No, because I purposely have picked ones to
connect with who it's just them.
They are, they might have like a nurse
(10:32):
or somebody, but they don't have yeah.
I've not picked the ones that have a
therapist as part of their group.
Yeah.
Okay.
I wonder about, so like the program I
did, it was six months.
The first three months I'm working with the
doc that was more like, let's try eliminating
these foods.
I was so heartbroken.
Caffeine was a no-go for me and
I, yeah, it still breaks my heart.
(10:54):
And I thought for sure it'd be cheese,
which is my favorite, but I can still
eat cheese at least.
So the first three months you're working on
like elimination diets and, you know, different lifestyle
changes.
And then the second three months I was
working with the doc who used to be
a therapist and was doing IFS coaching essentially,
(11:15):
which I didn't know was a thing until
recently.
Because they were very clear.
Like if you stay a stress case, your
body's going to keep rebelling.
So I wonder if you were to offer
to do talks for these naturopath and functional
medicine docs around like the impact of stress
on your body and how they can take
(11:35):
all the supplements they want if their adrenals
keep chugging too hard.
It doesn't matter if their adrenal, like their
supplements are helping or not.
Like they, they can't help burning it.
Right.
Right.
They're still just trying to use their thinking
brain to solve the problem.
Right.
And that's not doing anything.
Right.
And that's part of why they're having so
(11:56):
many somatic issues, right?
Like this is what we do.
Those of us who love to overthink, we're
like, why do my shoulders always hurt?
Why is my tummy always upset?
Always.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
If they've even recognized it, most of them,
it's almost like their head floats above their
body and they're not even aware of anything
below here.
(12:19):
Yeah.
How do you find these?
Like, cause I'm thinking like when you were
talking about like the group sessions, I was
like, oh, I mean, that sounds like the
lunch and learns that I used to go
to when I worked at like a large
thing, but how do you find those kinds
of opportunities and like meetings?
Yeah.
I mean, I would just offer it.
(12:40):
I could record this ahead of time and
you could distribute it to your people, but
you can say like, I know from my
clients that they can be doing all the
lifestyle stuff aside from, you know, they can,
they can do all the behaviors.
They can take all the supplements and they
stay stuck feeling like crap.
So this could really help your people so
(13:01):
I can record it ahead.
We can have a conversation on zoom that
they could tune into live.
If that would be helpful webinar style, you
let me know what you think, what you're
open to, what you think your patients would
like, and I'm happy to deliver it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, it seems like that would be
helpful, especially because I am virtual.
So having maybe something that's recorded that they
(13:22):
can send out.
And when you say that, like recorded, they
could distribute, they would be distributing it to
like their patients.
Yeah.
Their patients or their email list, depending.
Okay.
And I would call it like, why, um,
like why your body stays stuck even when
you're doing everything right or something like that,
(13:44):
like to really get to the heart of
their frustration and it doesn't have to be
super long.
It could be 20 minutes, you know?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then would you just talk about it
or would like, or would it make sense
for me to maybe even like do like,
even like, um, uh, facilitate maybe like a
little mini, I mean, it wouldn't necessarily be
(14:04):
a mini like yoga, like movement that you
could do to kind of, would it make
sense to put that in there as kind
of like a little stamp?
I know I mentioned that as a group,
like a little sample of like, yeah.
Yeah.
Because like you want them to get out
of your head.
So if you're just talking to them, they're
staying in their head.
And I mean, you could make jokes about
that.
Like, I'm going to give you some information.
It'll be good information for you to have
(14:25):
because many of you are big thinkers, but
here are some things I want you to
try.
Yeah.
And then at the end of every talk
to be like, for some of you, this
is exactly what you needed for others.
You need some more support around this.
And here's how to get in that kind
of thing.
Yeah.
What are some ways that are good to
(14:46):
like, cause I'm thinking about like the follow
-up, the ones that like I have friendship
friendships with, like, that's fine.
I don't even need to keep track of
the last time I talked with them because
I don't need to, but for other ones
that like we get along and it's fine,
but I'm not like friend friends with them.
I'm not texting them with my personal number.
(15:08):
What are some ways to kind of like
follow up and stay fresh without it being
like, Hey, Hey, I love like, if there's
a article, it can be a blog.
It doesn't need to be a journal article,
but if there's something that reminds you of
a conversation you've had or the kind of
work that they do or something their clients
(15:32):
struggle with, you can be like, Oh, I
saw this today and I thought of you
just curious how things are going for you.
I know the world's crazy right now.
Yeah.
I had sent last week.
Yeah.
Last week I had sent an email to
a handful of them.
I did it individually, but with kind of
like some practice updates, cause I talked about
(15:53):
like yoga and Reiki being like official things
that are offerings and kind of just described
my background and training for, cause they're the
perfect, like the providers.
So a little bit of this is not
just something I threw together.
Like, here's what I did to know what
I'm doing with this.
I did feel like the email was a
(16:13):
little bit long by the end of it,
but it was just kind of like a,
Hey, it's been a bit since we've talked.
Here's just some new things that I'm offering
looping in.
And I don't want to like rely on
those kinds of things.
Like I also want it to be a
little bit more, I'm not going to have
these big practice updates all the time.
Not, I don't plan on doing any more
big trainings like that.
And so, yeah, just kind of thinking about
(16:36):
some of those ways to stay a little
bit fresher in the ones that maybe I
don't see as often or talk to as
often when you say articles, like it could
be articles that I've just like read or
seen.
It doesn't necessarily have to be like my
blog posts, right?
Oh yeah.
A hundred percent.
Yeah.
Okay.
Just like something, you know, you saw scrolling.
Okay, cool.
(16:57):
I mean, I think about like, I mean,
not really ideal for your population right now
necessarily, but like with all the things going
on politically with autism right now, for instance,
you know, you could reach out to somebody
who does see a lot of autistic folks
and be like, Hey, I just wanted to
check in on you.
I know it's really heavy, you know, just
like thinking about just thinking about people.
(17:18):
Like when you go through your list of
people to talk to, again, to think about
them, not as potential referrers first, just think
of them as human beings who are like
navigating this really wild time.
And stressed out about a number of things
and probably have lots of personal things going
on that none of us know about and
(17:38):
just hitting on, like, just that you care
about them, you know?
Mm-hmm.
Oh yeah.
And I do try to put that like
in my, like, I try to start off
in the email with like a little bit
of that, like kind of that check-in
or just like, I hope that things are
going well and you're navigating all of this
the best that you can.
Yeah.
It feels like 2020 again to me, honestly.
(18:01):
Like how many of these, like the world's
fucked.
I'm just figuring it out as we go.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm also, I guess I'm thinking, I mean,
we talked about how like SEO game is
just different with these big companies dominating that
space and blogging is very much connected to
(18:21):
the SEO and the directories just don't do
what they like.
A lot of stuff just doesn't do what
it used to do.
And so in addition to networking and maybe
making some of these resources, whether it's videos
or maybe even like a little ebooklet that
people could send to their people as like
a resource, are there other things that you've
(18:44):
seen like survive times like this where it
just is harder and people are just a
little bit more mindful of getting started in
something that is going to be an investment?
Yeah.
I mean, I think it's making sure your
niche is super honed.
I was talking to another practice builder the
other day who was saying she's noticing a
decline in referrals for her people amongst like
(19:09):
the really young set, you know, like the
early twenties.
Like there's just not money for private pay
counseling for many people.
I mean, ultimately those people's parents were usually
paying anyway, but she was seeing that I'm
not seeing a big dip in it, but
it might be that the part of the
country she's in is seeing it sooner than
I am.
So I'm putting that out there.
So I think looking at who are the
(19:32):
people in your population, your ideal clients that
can afford still, you know, and I think
being private pay, you're actually insulated more from
this stuff than if you were taking insurance.
Cause when you're taking insurance, you're, you know,
in direct competition with all the online therapy
tech places.
(19:52):
Yes.
Yes.
And several of the consoles that I've had
in the last couple of months, even if
the consult weren't really well and they were
excited about it and like, I could sense
their like excitement about it after we got
done.
And they scheduled several of them would email
me a couple of days later and be
like, actually, I need to find someone in
with my insurance.
(20:12):
So thanks.
And yes, I mean, they are younger, like
20 something clients.
And so very much it's a different game,
but Yeah.
I've noticed that they're more wanting to use
insurance, even the insurance companies that I know
there's not many providers.
Cause I know the reimbursement rate is low.
(20:33):
So good luck.
And if you can't find anybody, yeah, come
back.
Welcome to call me again.
Yeah.
And it might be that for those kinds
of folks that are great fits that, that
are your niche, I wonder if a group
makes sense, they pay less, you make more.
Yeah.
So you could start saying like, totally get
that.
I may be starting.
(20:53):
If you want to do a group, I
may, I'm thinking about starting a group.
Would you like me to put your name
on the wait list for that?
It would cost less, but you'd still get
most of the benefits or more of what
you get in individual.
That's true.
That's true.
I did have one that was interested.
She had asked about group and I just
haven't done them since I ran dbt groups
and I'm not doing that anymore.
(21:15):
Right.
Oh yeah.
We had that conversation.
I think we talked about that in group.
Yeah.
Yep.
And I'll say private practice groups that are
not dbt groups, completely different animal.
I mean, they basically run themselves.
So just putting that out there.
Yes.
I'll have to maybe do some learning on
it because I am very used to the
(21:36):
dbt groups that are very structured and very
formatted.
And that would be different for me to
have it be a little bit more loose.
So I need to maybe do a little
bit more learning on that, but that could
be a way.
Cause yes, when, when we talked about it
in the group, I was thinking about like
workshops as a way for people to kind
(21:57):
of like try out some of this stuff.
Yeah.
And I mean, you did bring up a
good point of like, it's still like marketing
in this, whether it's therapy or this workshop,
like it's still, how do I get it
in front of people?
Right.
I mean, the thought was the workshop would
be a way of people maybe like, if
they weren't sure if they were ready to
like invest in a whole appointment yet.
(22:19):
Is that your ideal client though?
I mean, right now I'm thinking about all
my ones that have like, and they, the
ones that are spacing out are in the
maintenance phase anyway.
So like, it is, has been fine for
them to space out, but they are just
more paying attention to where their money is
going, what it's doing.
And so for some of them, I'm like,
(22:40):
I could see them wanting to see about
this before they agree to, okay, let's set
up an appointment and do the thing, especially
because the intake appointment, they're not going to
get yoga in the intake appointment.
So it really is like two or three
sessions in that you're going to maybe start
to actually experience some of that stuff.
So it would be a way for them
to like sample it a little bit, but
(23:03):
maybe not.
I don't, I don't know, maybe a group
would be better because they could kind of
do it more ongoing and try it out
a few times.
And then if they want more of the
individual piece, then they could.
Yeah.
And I mean, like you could do so
much of this body-based work in the
group, you know, from the jump essentially, like
you'd do a group screening and then it
(23:25):
could be ongoing and open.
Right.
Yeah.
Is there like, I know pre-2025 there
had been like last year, it seemed like
there was a big push for a big
spike in people like doing more like intensives
and offering that like as more of like
(23:46):
an adjunct to things I've been kind of
back and forth.
I'm like, if that's something that I could
see it working for, especially with my newer
offerings, right.
Somebody could be doing some like deep trauma
work with somebody and maybe just kind of
want to supplement with some of the stuff
to more like regulate the present day.
(24:06):
Yeah.
A hundred percent.
And it's also something that all your friends
could refer their current clients to.
I'm a big fan of intensives.
I think that they, they differentiate you in
the market, which is so important.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that they could be really powerful.
Do you see or feel like there's still
(24:28):
space for that right in 2025 in the
stuff that is happening now?
Like, are they still as popular and like
still as big?
It's a good question.
I don't know the answer to it.
I do know people who continually are filling
their intensives.
Yeah.
And I think there's also a differentiator.
(24:50):
Like we were talking about the more wealthy
people are less hit by all this.
Right.
I know so many people who are not,
they couldn't tell you the price of milk,
you know, like they're not bothered by any
of this and they have recession proof jobs.
So they're solid.
You know, they were already high earners.
Yeah.
Who will be like, yeah, I'm really stressed.
(25:10):
Like I would, I need to regulate my
nervous system.
This sounds amazing.
Sounds like a great way to do it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I feel like right now, a lot of
my clients, I mean, they may be in
recession proof jobs, but they're still in jobs
that they're seeing a lot of the impacts
on.
I have a lot of like very empathetic
(25:31):
clients.
And so like they're seeing it and taking
on other people's stuff and then they're kind
of showing up and they're like all kinds
of dysregulated because their battery is just at
zero.
Yeah.
If they're in recession proof jobs and they
were already high earners, like they're fine.
Right.
Like financially it's just their heart hurts because
they see other people suffering, which is what
(25:53):
they're there for.
Right.
Right.
Is there maybe a way to like be,
I mean, like, I don't know.
Cause I'm thinking like overthinkers and perfectionists outside
of 2025, those words worked fine, but maybe
those aren't the words for right now because
I mean, maybe they still are, but.
(26:13):
Well, I wonder about the clients that it
brings in.
So I'm thinking about, I was just talking
to a neighbor the other day who was
a estate planning attorney and he was saying
like, yeah, I mean, it's recession proof.
People are always dying and always wanting to
make sure that when they die or get
sick, that things are covered for their family.
Yeah.
And so that's a recession proof practice, basically
(26:36):
that type of law.
And like when I think of him and
I, we actually have a couple, uh, estate
planning attorneys on our street.
I don't know that they would go with
the vulnerability of overthinking or perfectionist, right?
Like they might describe it more as like,
those might be the people who are struggling
with money more potentially.
So you got to think of like, um,
(26:58):
chronically stressed.
Does that hit the same way?
Because most of the chronically stressed people I
know are overthinkers.
Right.
Yes.
So is there another way to describe them?
Like they feel like they're on the, um,
on the treadmill and they can't stop it
all.
Yeah.
I was looking back at my packet from
(27:18):
when I first, all the worksheets I did
when I very, very first signed up for
the party.
And I had noted something about like clients
who are like, they're like stuck in the
waiting game of something or someone else to
change.
They're just kind of like waiting for the
right, the right opportunity, the right thing, the
right moment, but they're waiting.
(27:38):
But does that like speak enough?
I mean, for some of my clients, it
does.
Cause we talk about the waiting game all
the time, but is that why they come
into therapy?
Right.
Or is that just like a really uncomfortable
part of their life?
I mean, it's something we're addressing in therapy,
but they came because of the overthinking.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Cause like I said, though, those words have
(27:59):
worked up until more recently.
Yeah.
I mean, chronic stress could maybe be one.
Well, when we talked earlier about taking care
of like the supplements and doing all these
things, but you're still feeling stuck that like
stuckness is maybe like showing up in a
couple of spaces.
So I'll have to maybe think about language
(28:21):
around that feeling like frozen and not knowing
what else to do.
And it's not necessarily coming from a place
of trauma.
It's just coming from the brain's just overworked
itself and now it's just done.
Yeah.
It's just way too much stimulation all the
time.
Yeah.
So I'll admit that there's a part of
me that's like, you know, if we are
(28:42):
choosing our words for the richest people within
our niches, there's a part of me that
squirms a bit at that.
And your overthinkers might also feel like, yeah,
I'm chronically stressed and like, we got to
get you stabilized.
And if that's the way to do it
so that you can offer maybe a sliding
scale for people who can't afford it later,
(29:03):
once you're completely stable, if there's a way
to kind of give back because you're stable
again, then that makes me less squirmy.
Would you change the wording, like on whole
website or just like maybe market the group
for chronic stress?
Even if my website is like therapy for
overthinkers, I think it could go either way.
(29:26):
Okay.
Yeah.
And I think it depends on who you're
talking to, you know, like, yeah, the group
could be really great as a chronic stress
thing.
And you could market it to everyone because
everyone is chronically stressed, right.
You know, but it feels very specific.
You know, you feel like, oh, I, yeah,
I am chronically stressed.
(29:47):
So yeah, it's one of those brilliant niches
that sounds really, really, really specific, but encompasses
like 98% of people.
So a thousand percent.
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
(Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) Hi, welcome to the Abundant Practice Podcast.
I'm Allison from Abundance Practice Building.
I have a nearly diagnosable obsession with helping
therapists build sustainable, joy-filled private practices, just
like I've done for tens of thousands of
therapists across the world.
I'm excited to help you too.
If you want to fill your practice with
(00:26):
ideal clients, we have loads of free resources
and paid support.
Go to abundancepracticebuilding.com slash links.
All right, on to the show.
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(00:47):
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you, internal and external secure messaging, clinical outcome
(01:08):
measures to keep an eye on how your
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(01:30):
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(01:53):
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Some of y'all aren't sending HIPAA compliant
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Even if you're paying for a business Google
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emails still aren't a hundred percent compliant.
That's where Powerbox comes in.
You can connect Powerbox to your Google workspace
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(02:16):
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Behind the scenes, Powerbox software checks the security
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and this is the easiest way to do
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Use code abundant.
(03:00):
Hello.
Hey, how are you?
I'm okay.
How are you?
I'm all right.
All right.
Yeah.
What would be helpful?
So I am thinking a lot about just
a marketing in this current climate.
I'm thinking about the group from, was it
last week or two weeks ago, when you
(03:20):
had said like, it's just different than it's
ever really been.
And you had talked about, because I think
I signed up for this before that.
So you had talked about like how networking
seems to be the most effective one right
now.
And I feel like networking is something that
I have put so much energy and effort
(03:41):
into and it's just not performing how I
would hope it would.
Okay.
And if right now that's the best one,
I'm feeling like something maybe has to change
there because I don't know what else to
do.
Okay.
Are you forming actual relationships when you're networking?
Like are these people becoming friends?
Yes.
Yes.
(04:01):
Are you networking with other people who need
clients?
Yes.
And no.
Okay.
I feel like I've got a good relationship
with a couples counselor and then a dietitian
that like we share like five or six
clients.
Like it's really good.
They know a lot about my work because
they work with a lot of my clients.
The couples counselor has sent some back my
(04:24):
way, which has been really good.
And they have been perfect matches.
Awesome.
And she's a couples counselor.
She doesn't carry as big of a caseload
as I do.
So it's not like she can send all
of her clients to me.
Right.
There is a limit in the dietitian.
I've networked with a lot of them and
because I do refer to them often and
(04:45):
I just keep hearing that most of their
people already have therapists when they get to
them.
So it's, well, it's helpful for me to
know who they are.
It doesn't seem to be as reciprocal.
So I have friendships with them, but they
just don't have people to refer to me
because their already hooked up with this by
the time they start that.
So yeah, just feeling kind of stuck in
(05:08):
some spaces.
And then when I think about other providers,
there's, there's this stickiness around like doctors in
the big healthcare systems want to refer within
there and they're not doing it anyway.
They have referral coordinators that are doing it
within systems.
(05:29):
I had met with a acupuncturist cause I'm
trained in EFT.
And so I was like, Ooh, tapping acupuncture,
that could be a good connection.
And we got along great.
She did refer some to me, but then
the owner of the practice that she works
at was like, Oh, we can't be promoting
just one therapist.
We have to be like, whatever.
(05:49):
Yeah.
So I'm just feeling stuck in some of
those systematic things too.
And I guess I'm just kind of like,
feel like I'm spinning my wheels.
Cause I'm doing all the things, maintaining the
relationships, reaching out to new people every month.
You'll stuck.
Yeah.
Have you talked to any independently owned psychiatric
(06:11):
providers?
Yes.
I've talked with a couple of them.
I'm trying to think one, I didn't even
offer to meet her for lunch and follow
up.
And she was just very busy, but we
did at least like chat on the phone
a couple of times.
Yeah.
I've only found a couple of them though.
Just they're harder to find right now.
(06:34):
Yes.
So I've got two of them that are
on my list.
I do struggle sometimes to refer back to
them because they are also private pay.
And for some of my clients, they can
do that.
And then for some of them, they're wanting
to do that in network just because that
has a higher price tag than me.
(06:56):
And so, yes, but I have two of
them that I do have on my list
and have connected with.
Okay.
And have they sent anybody that's stuck?
No.
Talk about your ideal client and what they're
going through right now.
Has it shifted or changed at all in
this climate?
The ones that I have that are my
(07:17):
ideal clients are definitely tightening their budgets for
sure.
Because they have spaced out a little bit
in terms of our frequency and scaling back
some other parts of their life.
But in terms of outside of that, no,
I mean, they're still feeling just like a
lot of overthinking, a lot of that perfectionism
(07:39):
and a lot of just kind of feeling
stuck in, especially right now, feeling like some
things are like a no-win situation.
So what is the best thing to do
here?
And the exhaustion of it all is certainly
a thing.
I know that the clients that are seeing
me are certainly enjoying that.
(08:00):
I've been bringing in more holistic things now
that I've finished yoga teacher training and Reiki
training, all of some things.
I've been bringing that in and that's been
really positive and really great, especially because their
overthinking brains aren't going to think their way
out of the stuff that's going on right
now.
And I don't know if that's something to
lean into more, but I keep thinking about
(08:21):
in all of the things that you've done
in the trainings, it's not the modality that
is going to break.
So I don't want to lean too heavy
into like, oh, here's what I do because
that's not maybe where I should be focusing.
I mean, I think it's, there are people
who are looking for Reiki practitioners, for instance,
(08:43):
that didn't realize like, oh, I could get
some therapy with that, like therapy with the
side of Reiki.
So I think it also comes down to
what your ideal client is looking for and
how you can get in front of them.
Yeah.
I'm thinking about the other body-based or
slightly crunchy or like those kinds of practitioners.
(09:07):
How do you feel about speaking?
I'd be open to it if I can
find opportunities to do that.
That part doesn't really bother me.
Yeah.
Did we talk about that during group?
I don't think so.
At least I didn't mention speaking.
Maybe somebody else.
I think somebody did ask about what to
charge for doing that or how to put
it out there.
(09:27):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So like, I wonder if there's a way
to get in front of people's people.
So for instance, I worked with a functional
medicine doctor here in town and they had
group sessions online.
They work with people all over the country,
group sessions online where you could tune into
some kind of expert on something or learn
(09:48):
more about some body issue or whatever, you
know, like gut health or that kind of
thing.
I wonder if there might be an opportunity
similar to that, like, I'm thinking naturopaths, functional
medicine docs, if there are any healing co
-op or anything like that.
Yeah.
I have connected with quite a few functional
(10:10):
medicine people and I have referred to them.
I have maintained connections with them and I
haven't really seen anything come back from them.
Do they have any therapists or health coaches
on staff?
No, because I purposely have picked ones to
connect with who it's just them.
They are, they might have like a nurse
(10:32):
or somebody, but they don't have yeah.
I've not picked the ones that have a
therapist as part of their group.
Yeah.
Okay.
I wonder about, so like the program I
did, it was six months.
The first three months I'm working with the
doc that was more like, let's try eliminating
these foods.
I was so heartbroken.
Caffeine was a no-go for me and
I, yeah, it still breaks my heart.
(10:54):
And I thought for sure it'd be cheese,
which is my favorite, but I can still
eat cheese at least.
So the first three months you're working on
like elimination diets and, you know, different lifestyle
changes.
And then the second three months I was
working with the doc who used to be
a therapist and was doing IFS coaching essentially,
(11:15):
which I didn't know was a thing until
recently.
Because they were very clear.
Like if you stay a stress case, your
body's going to keep rebelling.
So I wonder if you were to offer
to do talks for these naturopath and functional
medicine docs around like the impact of stress
on your body and how they can take
(11:35):
all the supplements they want if their adrenals
keep chugging too hard.
It doesn't matter if their adrenal, like their
supplements are helping or not.
Like they, they can't help burning it.
Right.
Right.
They're still just trying to use their thinking
brain to solve the problem.
Right.
And that's not doing anything.
Right.
And that's part of why they're having so
(11:56):
many somatic issues, right?
Like this is what we do.
Those of us who love to overthink, we're
like, why do my shoulders always hurt?
Why is my tummy always upset?
Always.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
If they've even recognized it, most of them,
it's almost like their head floats above their
body and they're not even aware of anything
below here.
(12:19):
Yeah.
How do you find these?
Like, cause I'm thinking like when you were
talking about like the group sessions, I was
like, oh, I mean, that sounds like the
lunch and learns that I used to go
to when I worked at like a large
thing, but how do you find those kinds
of opportunities and like meetings?
Yeah.
I mean, I would just offer it.
(12:40):
I could record this ahead of time and
you could distribute it to your people, but
you can say like, I know from my
clients that they can be doing all the
lifestyle stuff aside from, you know, they can,
they can do all the behaviors.
They can take all the supplements and they
stay stuck feeling like crap.
So this could really help your people so
(13:01):
I can record it ahead.
We can have a conversation on zoom that
they could tune into live.
If that would be helpful webinar style, you
let me know what you think, what you're
open to, what you think your patients would
like, and I'm happy to deliver it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, it seems like that would be
helpful, especially because I am virtual.
So having maybe something that's recorded that they
(13:22):
can send out.
And when you say that, like recorded, they
could distribute, they would be distributing it to
like their patients.
Yeah.
Their patients or their email list, depending.
Okay.
And I would call it like, why, um,
like why your body stays stuck even when
you're doing everything right or something like that,
(13:44):
like to really get to the heart of
their frustration and it doesn't have to be
super long.
It could be 20 minutes, you know?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then would you just talk about it
or would like, or would it make sense
for me to maybe even like do like,
even like, um, uh, facilitate maybe like a
little mini, I mean, it wouldn't necessarily be
(14:04):
a mini like yoga, like movement that you
could do to kind of, would it make
sense to put that in there as kind
of like a little stamp?
I know I mentioned that as a group,
like a little sample of like, yeah.
Yeah.
Because like you want them to get out
of your head.
So if you're just talking to them, they're
staying in their head.
And I mean, you could make jokes about
that.
Like, I'm going to give you some information.
It'll be good information for you to have
(14:25):
because many of you are big thinkers, but
here are some things I want you to
try.
Yeah.
And then at the end of every talk
to be like, for some of you, this
is exactly what you needed for others.
You need some more support around this.
And here's how to get in that kind
of thing.
Yeah.
What are some ways that are good to
(14:46):
like, cause I'm thinking about like the follow
-up, the ones that like I have friendship
friendships with, like, that's fine.
I don't even need to keep track of
the last time I talked with them because
I don't need to, but for other ones
that like we get along and it's fine,
but I'm not like friend friends with them.
I'm not texting them with my personal number.
(15:08):
What are some ways to kind of like
follow up and stay fresh without it being
like, Hey, Hey, I love like, if there's
a article, it can be a blog.
It doesn't need to be a journal article,
but if there's something that reminds you of
a conversation you've had or the kind of
work that they do or something their clients
(15:32):
struggle with, you can be like, Oh, I
saw this today and I thought of you
just curious how things are going for you.
I know the world's crazy right now.
Yeah.
I had sent last week.
Yeah.
Last week I had sent an email to
a handful of them.
I did it individually, but with kind of
like some practice updates, cause I talked about
(15:53):
like yoga and Reiki being like official things
that are offerings and kind of just described
my background and training for, cause they're the
perfect, like the providers.
So a little bit of this is not
just something I threw together.
Like, here's what I did to know what
I'm doing with this.
I did feel like the email was a
(16:13):
little bit long by the end of it,
but it was just kind of like a,
Hey, it's been a bit since we've talked.
Here's just some new things that I'm offering
looping in.
And I don't want to like rely on
those kinds of things.
Like I also want it to be a
little bit more, I'm not going to have
these big practice updates all the time.
Not, I don't plan on doing any more
big trainings like that.
And so, yeah, just kind of thinking about
(16:36):
some of those ways to stay a little
bit fresher in the ones that maybe I
don't see as often or talk to as
often when you say articles, like it could
be articles that I've just like read or
seen.
It doesn't necessarily have to be like my
blog posts, right?
Oh yeah.
A hundred percent.
Yeah.
Okay.
Just like something, you know, you saw scrolling.
Okay, cool.
(16:57):
I mean, I think about like, I mean,
not really ideal for your population right now
necessarily, but like with all the things going
on politically with autism right now, for instance,
you know, you could reach out to somebody
who does see a lot of autistic folks
and be like, Hey, I just wanted to
check in on you.
I know it's really heavy, you know, just
like thinking about just thinking about people.
(17:18):
Like when you go through your list of
people to talk to, again, to think about
them, not as potential referrers first, just think
of them as human beings who are like
navigating this really wild time.
And stressed out about a number of things
and probably have lots of personal things going
on that none of us know about and
(17:38):
just hitting on, like, just that you care
about them, you know?
Mm-hmm.
Oh yeah.
And I do try to put that like
in my, like, I try to start off
in the email with like a little bit
of that, like kind of that check-in
or just like, I hope that things are
going well and you're navigating all of this
the best that you can.
Yeah.
It feels like 2020 again to me, honestly.
(18:01):
Like how many of these, like the world's
fucked.
I'm just figuring it out as we go.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm also, I guess I'm thinking, I mean,
we talked about how like SEO game is
just different with these big companies dominating that
space and blogging is very much connected to
(18:21):
the SEO and the directories just don't do
what they like.
A lot of stuff just doesn't do what
it used to do.
And so in addition to networking and maybe
making some of these resources, whether it's videos
or maybe even like a little ebooklet that
people could send to their people as like
a resource, are there other things that you've
(18:44):
seen like survive times like this where it
just is harder and people are just a
little bit more mindful of getting started in
something that is going to be an investment?
Yeah.
I mean, I think it's making sure your
niche is super honed.
I was talking to another practice builder the
other day who was saying she's noticing a
decline in referrals for her people amongst like
(19:09):
the really young set, you know, like the
early twenties.
Like there's just not money for private pay
counseling for many people.
I mean, ultimately those people's parents were usually
paying anyway, but she was seeing that I'm
not seeing a big dip in it, but
it might be that the part of the
country she's in is seeing it sooner than
I am.
So I'm putting that out there.
So I think looking at who are the
(19:32):
people in your population, your ideal clients that
can afford still, you know, and I think
being private pay, you're actually insulated more from
this stuff than if you were taking insurance.
Cause when you're taking insurance, you're, you know,
in direct competition with all the online therapy
tech places.
(19:52):
Yes.
Yes.
And several of the consoles that I've had
in the last couple of months, even if
the consult weren't really well and they were
excited about it and like, I could sense
their like excitement about it after we got
done.
And they scheduled several of them would email
me a couple of days later and be
like, actually, I need to find someone in
with my insurance.
(20:12):
So thanks.
And yes, I mean, they are younger, like
20 something clients.
And so very much it's a different game,
but Yeah.
I've noticed that they're more wanting to use
insurance, even the insurance companies that I know
there's not many providers.
Cause I know the reimbursement rate is low.
(20:33):
So good luck.
And if you can't find anybody, yeah, come
back.
Welcome to call me again.
Yeah.
And it might be that for those kinds
of folks that are great fits that, that
are your niche, I wonder if a group
makes sense, they pay less, you make more.
Yeah.
So you could start saying like, totally get
that.
I may be starting.
(20:53):
If you want to do a group, I
may, I'm thinking about starting a group.
Would you like me to put your name
on the wait list for that?
It would cost less, but you'd still get
most of the benefits or more of what
you get in individual.
That's true.
That's true.
I did have one that was interested.
She had asked about group and I just
haven't done them since I ran dbt groups
and I'm not doing that anymore.
(21:15):
Right.
Oh yeah.
We had that conversation.
I think we talked about that in group.
Yeah.
Yep.
And I'll say private practice groups that are
not dbt groups, completely different animal.
I mean, they basically run themselves.
So just putting that out there.
Yes.
I'll have to maybe do some learning on
it because I am very used to the
(21:36):
dbt groups that are very structured and very
formatted.
And that would be different for me to
have it be a little bit more loose.
So I need to maybe do a little
bit more learning on that, but that could
be a way.
Cause yes, when, when we talked about it
in the group, I was thinking about like
workshops as a way for people to kind
(21:57):
of like try out some of this stuff.
Yeah.
And I mean, you did bring up a
good point of like, it's still like marketing
in this, whether it's therapy or this workshop,
like it's still, how do I get it
in front of people?
Right.
I mean, the thought was the workshop would
be a way of people maybe like, if
they weren't sure if they were ready to
like invest in a whole appointment yet.
(22:19):
Is that your ideal client though?
I mean, right now I'm thinking about all
my ones that have like, and they, the
ones that are spacing out are in the
maintenance phase anyway.
So like, it is, has been fine for
them to space out, but they are just
more paying attention to where their money is
going, what it's doing.
And so for some of them, I'm like,
(22:40):
I could see them wanting to see about
this before they agree to, okay, let's set
up an appointment and do the thing, especially
because the intake appointment, they're not going to
get yoga in the intake appointment.
So it really is like two or three
sessions in that you're going to maybe start
to actually experience some of that stuff.
So it would be a way for them
to like sample it a little bit, but
(23:03):
maybe not.
I don't, I don't know, maybe a group
would be better because they could kind of
do it more ongoing and try it out
a few times.
And then if they want more of the
individual piece, then they could.
Yeah.
And I mean, like you could do so
much of this body-based work in the
group, you know, from the jump essentially, like
you'd do a group screening and then it
(23:25):
could be ongoing and open.
Right.
Yeah.
Is there like, I know pre-2025 there
had been like last year, it seemed like
there was a big push for a big
spike in people like doing more like intensives
and offering that like as more of like
(23:46):
an adjunct to things I've been kind of
back and forth.
I'm like, if that's something that I could
see it working for, especially with my newer
offerings, right.
Somebody could be doing some like deep trauma
work with somebody and maybe just kind of
want to supplement with some of the stuff
to more like regulate the present day.
(24:06):
Yeah.
A hundred percent.
And it's also something that all your friends
could refer their current clients to.
I'm a big fan of intensives.
I think that they, they differentiate you in
the market, which is so important.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that they could be really powerful.
Do you see or feel like there's still
(24:28):
space for that right in 2025 in the
stuff that is happening now?
Like, are they still as popular and like
still as big?
It's a good question.
I don't know the answer to it.
I do know people who continually are filling
their intensives.
Yeah.
And I think there's also a differentiator.
(24:50):
Like we were talking about the more wealthy
people are less hit by all this.
Right.
I know so many people who are not,
they couldn't tell you the price of milk,
you know, like they're not bothered by any
of this and they have recession proof jobs.
So they're solid.
You know, they were already high earners.
Yeah.
Who will be like, yeah, I'm really stressed.
(25:10):
Like I would, I need to regulate my
nervous system.
This sounds amazing.
Sounds like a great way to do it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I feel like right now, a lot of
my clients, I mean, they may be in
recession proof jobs, but they're still in jobs
that they're seeing a lot of the impacts
on.
I have a lot of like very empathetic
(25:31):
clients.
And so like they're seeing it and taking
on other people's stuff and then they're kind
of showing up and they're like all kinds
of dysregulated because their battery is just at
zero.
Yeah.
If they're in recession proof jobs and they
were already high earners, like they're fine.
Right.
Like financially it's just their heart hurts because
they see other people suffering, which is what
(25:53):
they're there for.
Right.
Right.
Is there maybe a way to like be,
I mean, like, I don't know.
Cause I'm thinking like overthinkers and perfectionists outside
of 2025, those words worked fine, but maybe
those aren't the words for right now because
I mean, maybe they still are, but.
(26:13):
Well, I wonder about the clients that it
brings in.
So I'm thinking about, I was just talking
to a neighbor the other day who was
a estate planning attorney and he was saying
like, yeah, I mean, it's recession proof.
People are always dying and always wanting to
make sure that when they die or get
sick, that things are covered for their family.
Yeah.
And so that's a recession proof practice, basically
(26:36):
that type of law.
And like when I think of him and
I, we actually have a couple, uh, estate
planning attorneys on our street.
I don't know that they would go with
the vulnerability of overthinking or perfectionist, right?
Like they might describe it more as like,
those might be the people who are struggling
with money more potentially.
So you got to think of like, um,
(26:58):
chronically stressed.
Does that hit the same way?
Because most of the chronically stressed people I
know are overthinkers.
Right.
Yes.
So is there another way to describe them?
Like they feel like they're on the, um,
on the treadmill and they can't stop it
all.
Yeah.
I was looking back at my packet from
(27:18):
when I first, all the worksheets I did
when I very, very first signed up for
the party.
And I had noted something about like clients
who are like, they're like stuck in the
waiting game of something or someone else to
change.
They're just kind of like waiting for the
right, the right opportunity, the right thing, the
right moment, but they're waiting.
(27:38):
But does that like speak enough?
I mean, for some of my clients, it
does.
Cause we talk about the waiting game all
the time, but is that why they come
into therapy?
Right.
Or is that just like a really uncomfortable
part of their life?
I mean, it's something we're addressing in therapy,
but they came because of the overthinking.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Cause like I said, though, those words have
(27:59):
worked up until more recently.
Yeah.
I mean, chronic stress could maybe be one.
Well, when we talked earlier about taking care
of like the supplements and doing all these
things, but you're still feeling stuck that like
stuckness is maybe like showing up in a
couple of spaces.
So I'll have to maybe think about language
(28:21):
around that feeling like frozen and not knowing
what else to do.
And it's not necessarily coming from a place
of trauma.
It's just coming from the brain's just overworked
itself and now it's just done.
Yeah.
It's just way too much stimulation all the
time.
Yeah.
So I'll admit that there's a part of
me that's like, you know, if we are
(28:42):
choosing our words for the richest people within
our niches, there's a part of me that
squirms a bit at that.
And your overthinkers might also feel like, yeah,
I'm chronically stressed and like, we got to
get you stabilized.
And if that's the way to do it
so that you can offer maybe a sliding
scale for people who can't afford it later,
(29:03):
once you're completely stable, if there's a way
to kind of give back because you're stable
again, then that makes me less squirmy.
Would you change the wording, like on whole
website or just like maybe market the group
for chronic stress?
Even if my website is like therapy for
overthinkers, I think it could go either way.
(29:26):
Okay.
Yeah.
And I think it depends on who you're
talking to, you know, like, yeah, the group
could be really great as a chronic stress
thing.
And you could market it to everyone because
everyone is chronically stressed, right.
You know, but it feels very specific.
You know, you feel like, oh, I, yeah,
I am chronically stressed.
(29:47):
So yeah, it's one of those brilliant niches
that sounds really, really, really specific, but encompasses
like 98% of people.
So a thousand percent.
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
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