Speaking confidence and vocal coach Linda Ugelow and I explore the unique challenges therapists face around public speaking and performance. We dive into Linda’s personal story of overcoming her own fear of speaking and how that experience informs the work she does today. Our conversation centers on the importance of self-reflection, understanding the root causes of fear, and doing the internal healing work that allows confidence to emerge. We also touch on how validation and self-trust play essential roles in helping therapists step into visibility with greater ease and authenticity.
June 11, 2025 • 28 mins
Prefer video? This episode is also available to stream on our YouTube channel!
Learn more about today's guest here: https://www.abundancepracticebuilding.com/blog.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:08):
(Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) Hi, welcome to the Abundant Practice Podcast.
I'm Allison from Abundance Practice Building.
I have a nearly diagnosable obsession with helping
therapists build sustainable, joy-filled private practices, just
like I've done for tens of thousands of
therapists across the world.
I'm excited to help you too.
If you wanna fill your practice with ideal
clients, we have loads of free resources and
(00:29):
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(02:59):
Welcome back to the Abundant Practice Podcast.
I'm your host, Alison Puryear.
I am here with Linda Ugalo, and we're
gonna be talking about something that a lot
of therapists shy away from.
We're gonna be talking about public speaking.
And as someone who used to be terrified
of public speaking and now do it a
fair amount, I'm really excited about what you're
(03:19):
gonna share with us because there is access
to so much of what we want in
our practice when we have gotten through some
of the fear of public speaking.
And there's so much service we can provide
through public speaking.
So thanks for being here.
I'm so happy and excited to get into
this conversation.
Yeah, so let's talk some, I mean, I
(03:40):
think there are lots of avenues for public
speaking for therapists.
There are workshops, retreats, group consultations, these kinds
of things where we might freeze up.
As therapists, we're often taught to not really
exist too much in the room as people.
A lot of us in our, like, hide
your humanity, essentially.
(04:01):
And then the more we practice, the more
we realize that's not really a thing that
we need to be concerned about.
So the idea of being front and center,
of being seen can be really confronting to
a lot of therapists.
So I'm curious how you work with people
to move through some of that fear of
public speaking that's so common.
(04:22):
Well, I think that therapists of all people
will understand this, that the fear of speaking
isn't random.
It's always connected to something.
And even though I have a background in
psychology, have a master's degree in expressive arts
therapy, I didn't realize my lifelong fear of
(04:42):
speaking might be connected to past experiences I
had.
And it wasn't until I tried to, I
took a coaching program and I was online
and wanting to build that coaching business, needed
to get in front of people that I
realized that I was terrified of being on
(05:03):
camera.
And at the time it was 2015 and
live streaming became a thing.
It was a brand new thing.
Only a few people kind of knew about
it at the time.
And it was an app called Periscope.
I remember it.
Do you remember?
The little sound it made, yeah.
That's so cool.
That's so cool.
You know, you got on the platform, you
(05:24):
typed in your topic and then you could
see who was joining from where.
So you would see, you know, people from
India and Turkey and France and California.
And there was no, it was like shown
to everybody.
There was no algorithm.
There was a map, a little light would
blink over Boston, which was my area.
(05:45):
And anyone in the world could look at
that map at any time and say, oh,
I wonder who's talking in Boston.
What are they chatting about?
So it was an abundant audience.
And I remember when I would press broadcast
and people would come on, my heart was
pounding.
My breath, I hyperventilated.
(06:06):
I even felt like I was leaving my
body, like I was hovering above myself.
But I'd been a performer for 40 years
with Women's World Music Group.
We'd done, I don't know, over 500 performances
by the end of my four decades with
them.
So I knew and I had skills to
like bring myself down into my body and
(06:28):
to focus and perform, you know, so that
people probably didn't know that I was having
a panic attack inside.
Yeah.
And I assumed that doing this day after
day, because all the marketing gurus said, you
got to get on daily to build your
following.
(06:49):
And I assumed that, oh, after a few
weeks, I'll be fine.
And in the meantime, I'll meditate, I'll do
deep breathing and power poses and affirmations and
all these ways to manage the fear so
I could get on and be composed.
By the way, what I was talking about
was how not to stress in your business.
(07:11):
Love it, love the parallel process.
A little parallel process and a bit of
irony.
After, you know, the weeks went on because
I got into this daily routine.
And at week 10, I was about to
get on and I realized my heart is
still racing.
(07:32):
I was still hyperventilating.
And all of a sudden it occurred to
me, I'm managing my fear, but my fear
hasn't gone.
I didn't want to manage my fear.
I wanted my fear to be gone.
I didn't want to have to think about
it.
I didn't want to have to worry about
it.
I didn't want to be distracted by it.
(07:53):
And that's what I think is most insidious
about the fear of speaking is that it's
distracting.
It takes up mental bandwidth.
Physically, you know, mentally, you're worried on some
level, you're worried that it's going to show,
you're trying to manage your fear.
Minimize it when you really want to put
(08:13):
your energy into communicating instead of managing.
And I know that therapists understand this from
with their clients.
So I decided I was going to get
rid of it.
I mean, I had already done all the
Google searches to figure out, you know, what
was available publicly to help me and I'd
(08:35):
read books and nothing really got to me.
But I decided, okay, what are the tools
I know?
And one of them is something called focusing.
And probably, you know, many of your people
in your audience have heard of it where
you listen into your body and you imagine
the distress in your body and you speak
to it from a body place.
(08:56):
So I decided to close my eyes and
ask the fear, if the fear could talk,
what would it say?
And what came back to me was, you're
going to be attacked.
And all of a sudden, I remembered all
these childhood experiences where my sisters attacked me
every time mom put me in the center
(09:18):
of attention.
She would say, Linda is such a good
girl.
Why can't you two girls be more like
Linda?
Yeah.
Of course they hated it.
She set you up, yeah.
She set it up, I know.
And you know, and here's another irony.
I was the good girl because I saw
them get punished and I thought that's never
going to happen to me.
And it never did for mom, but it
(09:40):
certainly did for my sisters.
And then I had this duh moment.
Of course I'm not comfortable being the center
of attention because I learned it was dangerous.
And then I started to think, well, what
else taught me it was dangerous?
And I thought about in seventh grade when
all the girls said, nobody talked to Linda
(10:00):
and no one did for four days.
And I remember how impactful that was because
after that, I thought, people don't want to
hear from me.
People don't want to hear what I have
to say.
And then I thought about how that time
I brought home my straight A report card
and mom looked at it and she said,
(10:21):
why an A minus and not an A
plus?
And feeling like, oh, I'm not good enough
for her.
I have to be perfect in order to
be good enough.
Countless other things.
I started to like comb through my, what
I call the psychic closet, the Jungian idea
of the psychic closet of the psyche and
(10:42):
just kind of clean out whatever I could
find.
Like what was there that may have impacted
me?
And it turned out that I had some
self-help tools that I had been taught
by a friend and Eliza Bergeson, who was
a kinesiologist, a transformational kinesiologist.
(11:02):
One was EFT.
I also had been using creative visualization from
a book called Creative Visualization by Shakti Gawain.
Everyone who was around and interested in the
70s or the 80s, I think it came
out in 86.
Everybody had that book.
And then I did journaling and I did
dance because my background's in dance movement therapy.
(11:24):
And at night, I remember lying awake in
the middle of the night thinking, okay, who
else said anything mean to me or anything
that made me, belittled me or shamed me
or I felt humiliated.
And I forgave them.
I'd say, I forgive you for embarrassing me
(11:46):
in front of the class.
I forgive you.
And then I forgave myself.
And after five days, and I'm still doing
my Periscope daily.
After five days, my heart wasn't racing.
I felt present because I wasn't being pulled
into the past, even unconsciously by these things.
(12:08):
And it was thrilling.
And I went on to do another 200
days of live streaming, feeling very present, very
happy, like delighted.
And it wasn't that I started to work
with people with this right away.
I actually kind of kept it to myself,
but I mentioned to a few people that
I had done this for myself.
And all of a sudden, people started to
(12:28):
say, oh, do you think it would work
for me?
And I said, I don't know.
I had my issues.
I have my modalities that I like, but
let's try it.
And so one thing led to the other.
And once I realized that this was something
that could help other people and not just
people getting on camera, because that's where I
(12:50):
was.
I wasn't a speaker on a stage.
Although in my Women's World music group, I
did have to introduce songs and that totally
changed too.
Oh my gosh.
When my song came up to be introduced,
I remember thinking, oh good, it's my turn
to speak.
And like that feeling of enthusiasm was revelatory
(13:11):
to me that I could actually look forward
to it rather than dread it.
Mm-hmm, yeah.
So in the meantime, once I started to
work with clients, I discovered all these other
areas that can be impactful that I hadn't
realized when I was just working with myself
or with my first client.
(13:32):
So as therapists, not licensed as a therapist,
but we all know that we learn from
our clients, right?
Oh yeah, mm-hmm.
And it's the same thing in this area
of what are the experiences that people had
that impacted them?
Because I would, you know, I'd question them.
(13:52):
I'd have them reflect back.
And when we couldn't find the things in
the areas that I was aware of, something
would pop up.
For instance, I had one client who, he
said, I had a lot of friend groups
because I asked him, what about your friends?
And he said, I had a lot of
friend groups, but I always felt on the
(14:12):
outside.
I had the nerd friends and the drama
friends and the athletes, but I was never
on the inside.
And I said, is it possible that you
felt like, oh, those are the people who
should be asked.
Those are the people who are popular.
Those are the people that others wanna hear
from.
No one really wants to hear from me.
(14:34):
Kind of like when I got bullied in
seventh grade.
And he said, oh my gosh, yes, that's
what it feels like.
Or another client I had, we couldn't find
anything in his family.
Totally supportive, but not too much, not too
pushy.
You know, great with the siblings.
And then in school, he was liked by
all his teachers and he had friends and
(14:55):
he was never bullied.
And then I said, where were you in
your class rank?
And he said, oh, I was valedictorian.
I said, do you think it's possible that
you felt that people liked you, people valued
you because you were so smart, that you
were always at the top of your class,
(15:16):
that you were always perfect?
Because remember in school, you get the highest
grades for not making any mistakes.
And he said, yeah, I feel like if
I make any mistake, I'm a failure and
that people aren't gonna like me.
Yeah, and it's interesting because it's such a
common fear.
It's easy to write it off as just
(15:36):
like, this is a thing humans are afraid
of.
Instead of taking some time and some intention
and seeing what is it that I specifically
am afraid of?
Like, what is this rooted back into from
my past that keeps me scared and keeps
me not trying it or keeps me not
exposure therapy my way through it?
(15:57):
Yes, and you know, this is why I
feel that idea that it's in our human
design to be afraid.
I think it's just the opposite because if
you look at kids, when they're learning to
speak, you can't get them to stop.
So what happens and they're completely unselfconscious.
What happens between then and now?
(16:20):
Well, it's all the conditioning that we had.
You know, it's the dysfunctional family systems.
It's the school system that, you know, makes
us afraid of mistakes, that embarrasses us in
front of schoolmates, that the mean teachers or
the, you know, the testing and feeling like
we're being scrutinized and evaluated on every move
(16:43):
we make and that the idea of expressing
ourselves freely is stamped down because of classroom
management and that there's one way to get
to the right answer instead of multiple ways.
I mean, there's been a lot of new
research and intelligence that's been infused, but basically
the system is very traumatic for most people.
(17:05):
Very few people get out of school not
feeling some kind of injury from the experience.
Right, which also, you know, has to do
with the age.
Like we can't get through adolescence without injury.
We can't get through, especially like navigating those
relationships, friendships, hormones, all of it.
Like it's all just a messy, messy experience.
It's very messy and our society is messy.
(17:27):
And, you know, one of, I mean, one
of the things that I think is so
beautiful about therapists is that you're light workers.
You know, we are trying to help change
human and society, human consciousness and society.
So it's a kinder, more supportive and encouraging
place.
(17:48):
Right.
So I'm hearing for therapists who, like maybe
when they've thought about the impact they want
to have on the world or a marketing
strategy to fill their practice, they've considered public
speaking at some level.
What I'm hearing is if you're reticent or
if you cannot keep your panic at bay
(18:09):
after multiple times of trying, there's likely some
tendrils into your past that are worth exploring.
I love that word, tendrils.
Yes.
And so like in my book, Delight in
the Limelight, I lay out a framework, a
three-part framework.
And the first part is to reveal and
heal.
So to uncover what could be the reason
(18:30):
why you decided it was safer to hide.
And then to heal it with, you know,
I have my modalities, but you can use
any kind of modalities.
I promote a multi-modality approach just because
I feel that we're multi-dimensional.
And when it goes to healing these things,
I love something called EFT or emotional freedom
techniques.
Some people know it as tapping, but I
(18:51):
don't rely on it alone.
I then may do some like inner parenting,
inner child work, do some physical, you know,
I'm a movement person.
I might do some music movement, doing forgiveness
definitely, because ultimately we want to let go.
We want to change the relationship that we
had to the past.
(19:11):
Just, I mean, I'm talking to the choir
here, but just as a reminder, it's the
same thing with this fear of public speaking.
And it could be the way that we,
you know, and all of the listeners as
therapists, it's there a growing edge for them
to be able to heal another aspect of
their past because all therapists have done a
(19:34):
lot of healing work, but maybe haven't thought
about this particular area.
Right, because it's just so ubiquitous, right?
Like everybody's afraid of public speaking.
Right, exactly.
That's why it never occurred to me.
I mean, the tools that I use to
get over my fear, I had had those
for probably two decades.
I just didn't know I had stuff to
heal until I came up against that block
(19:56):
in a very public way.
And I imagine, I can't think of anyone
who hasn't gotten the message to stop talking,
to be smaller, that what they have to
say isn't important, who they are isn't important.
I can't think of a single person who
hasn't had that experience at some point growing
up and into their adulthood.
(20:17):
I have come across some.
I mean, even as I said, among my
clients, I've had a couple.
In fact, I also worked with somebody recently
who loved speaking, felt really, really good at
it until last year.
And she wasn't sure what happened, what happened
(20:37):
that she lost her confidence.
And it was interesting, she kind of set
herself up, but it was twofold.
One is that she set herself up and
two, that she has a very competitive nature
and also very smart at the top of
her class, liked being better than other people.
(21:01):
And so she had taken over somebody's position
who had ended their tenure on a high
note.
He had invested in some coaches to help
him create his last presentation to the organization.
He killed it.
And she thought, she went in and she
(21:21):
said the next year, she said, wasn't that
amazing?
He killed it.
Let's see if I can top him.
And I was thinking, no, don't say that.
Please stop.
It's akin to somebody introducing you as, this
person's the funniest person you'll ever hear.
(21:41):
You're gonna be, and then everyone's like waiting.
Okay, is he funny?
Is he funny?
No, you don't wanna set yourself up with
high expectations that then you have to fulfill.
So that was one thing that happened to
her.
And the other is that her mother had
recently passed away and she didn't realize, she's
(22:03):
not a person who cries.
And when she decided to say something or
refer to her mom in her talk, cause
it fit in with something.
And as she did it, she became emotional
and it threw her off.
And she was afraid that she was going
(22:25):
to, like her voice got shaky and she
felt like unstable and distracted obviously.
And all of a sudden she was afraid,
oh, now what's going on with me?
She started downward spiral.
Is this gonna happen again?
And so we needed to unpack that.
Why did she get triggered?
(22:46):
And also unpack, is it okay to be
emotional when you speak?
And does it mean that you're gonna fall
apart or can you have a moment and
also gift an audience with a moment?
Yeah, I can imagine that was the most
riveting moment of her entire talk.
Absolutely, but it terrified her.
And it set her up for fearing the
(23:09):
next talk she was gonna give.
I mean, what was interesting, I don't know
where this came from, but I said to
her, she was really hooked on people telling
her how great she was.
I said, how much do you feel you
need people to tell you how great you
are in order to feel how great you
are?
Is it possible that you've had enough?
(23:31):
If it still comes, how wonderful, what a
gift that is, but can you decide that
it's more important what you communicate than people
say, that was amazing?
And that shifted it for her.
And I think that's one of the things
that on some level we can easily get
(23:53):
caught up on because we want to feel
like we're good enough.
We wanna feel like we're okay, that people
like us, that they like what we have
to say, that they think well of us,
that they hold us in regard.
So there is part of us that wants
people to say, what a great speaker you
are, or that was wonderful, I love listening
(24:14):
to you.
That feeds a part of us that maybe
didn't get it earlier on.
And so it's like a little hole in
the bucket that needs to fill up that
we may not like admitting to, but it's
there.
Yeah, I remember, so I told you, I
performed with the Women's World Music Group and
(24:36):
I was the principal dancer.
And I did this one dance, it's a
trance dance from Egypt.
It's so powerful.
And people would often cry.
It's very simple, but it's emotional and it
builds up and then it ends.
And I know the impact on the audience.
(24:56):
And I did it, I don't know, 25,
30 years, almost every performance.
And people would come up to me and
they say, that was amazing, that just brought
me to tears.
It felt so impactful.
I don't know what it did for me,
but I know it was big.
And after a while, I came to expect
(25:16):
that.
And I felt like, I don't need that
anymore.
I mean, it's nice to know, but it's
not, it's like I'm already filled up.
I'm certain, I'm confident in the impact that
dance makes.
And I'm doing it for service.
I'm doing it because I know that there's
(25:40):
someone in the audience that needs this experience.
Not because I'm looking for people to say,
oh, Linda, you're an amazing dancer or something
like that.
And when you're coming from service, there's a
different energy.
I think about that with therapists.
If you are going out and giving talks
in your community and you're coming from desperation,
(26:01):
send me clients, I need to fill my
caseload, that kind of energy, it feels very
different for the audience than if you're there
to share information you know will be helpful
for people.
Absolutely, absolutely.
So yes, we need to understand what is
my need for affirmation, validation from others.
(26:22):
And if there is that, that can be
a clue to what needs to be healed.
Where didn't I get validation as a kid
or earlier on and who did I want
it from?
And let's see how we can clear that
away.
Well, Linda, thank you so much.
You've got your book, Delight in the Limelight.
I love the cover art, I can see
(26:44):
it behind you for anybody watching on YouTube
versus listening, like it's awesome.
So we will put a link to that
in the show notes so that people can
check it out because I think like what
you're bringing up about processing through that stuff
that makes it hard and scary for us,
like it prevents us from being of service
in this way.
And for people building their practice, it can
(27:05):
make growing slower in a way that it
doesn't have to be.
Absolutely, because when you are free of it,
then as I said, it's like, oh good,
it's my turn to speak.
Right, yes, I love it.
Amazing, thank you so much.
Thank you for having me on, Allison.
Take care.
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(27:51):
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(Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) Hi, welcome to the Abundant Practice Podcast.
I'm Allison from Abundance Practice Building.
I have a nearly diagnosable obsession with helping
therapists build sustainable, joy-filled private practices, just
like I've done for tens of thousands of
therapists across the world.
I'm excited to help you too.
If you wanna fill your practice with ideal
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(00:29):
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(02:59):
Welcome back to the Abundant Practice Podcast.
I'm your host, Alison Puryear.
I am here with Linda Ugalo, and we're
gonna be talking about something that a lot
of therapists shy away from.
We're gonna be talking about public speaking.
And as someone who used to be terrified
of public speaking and now do it a
fair amount, I'm really excited about what you're
(03:19):
gonna share with us because there is access
to so much of what we want in
our practice when we have gotten through some
of the fear of public speaking.
And there's so much service we can provide
through public speaking.
So thanks for being here.
I'm so happy and excited to get into
this conversation.
Yeah, so let's talk some, I mean, I
(03:40):
think there are lots of avenues for public
speaking for therapists.
There are workshops, retreats, group consultations, these kinds
of things where we might freeze up.
As therapists, we're often taught to not really
exist too much in the room as people.
A lot of us in our, like, hide
your humanity, essentially.
(04:01):
And then the more we practice, the more
we realize that's not really a thing that
we need to be concerned about.
So the idea of being front and center,
of being seen can be really confronting to
a lot of therapists.
So I'm curious how you work with people
to move through some of that fear of
public speaking that's so common.
(04:22):
Well, I think that therapists of all people
will understand this, that the fear of speaking
isn't random.
It's always connected to something.
And even though I have a background in
psychology, have a master's degree in expressive arts
therapy, I didn't realize my lifelong fear of
(04:42):
speaking might be connected to past experiences I
had.
And it wasn't until I tried to, I
took a coaching program and I was online
and wanting to build that coaching business, needed
to get in front of people that I
realized that I was terrified of being on
(05:03):
camera.
And at the time it was 2015 and
live streaming became a thing.
It was a brand new thing.
Only a few people kind of knew about
it at the time.
And it was an app called Periscope.
I remember it.
Do you remember?
The little sound it made, yeah.
That's so cool.
That's so cool.
You know, you got on the platform, you
(05:24):
typed in your topic and then you could
see who was joining from where.
So you would see, you know, people from
India and Turkey and France and California.
And there was no, it was like shown
to everybody.
There was no algorithm.
There was a map, a little light would
blink over Boston, which was my area.
(05:45):
And anyone in the world could look at
that map at any time and say, oh,
I wonder who's talking in Boston.
What are they chatting about?
So it was an abundant audience.
And I remember when I would press broadcast
and people would come on, my heart was
pounding.
My breath, I hyperventilated.
(06:06):
I even felt like I was leaving my
body, like I was hovering above myself.
But I'd been a performer for 40 years
with Women's World Music Group.
We'd done, I don't know, over 500 performances
by the end of my four decades with
them.
So I knew and I had skills to
like bring myself down into my body and
(06:28):
to focus and perform, you know, so that
people probably didn't know that I was having
a panic attack inside.
Yeah.
And I assumed that doing this day after
day, because all the marketing gurus said, you
got to get on daily to build your
following.
(06:49):
And I assumed that, oh, after a few
weeks, I'll be fine.
And in the meantime, I'll meditate, I'll do
deep breathing and power poses and affirmations and
all these ways to manage the fear so
I could get on and be composed.
By the way, what I was talking about
was how not to stress in your business.
(07:11):
Love it, love the parallel process.
A little parallel process and a bit of
irony.
After, you know, the weeks went on because
I got into this daily routine.
And at week 10, I was about to
get on and I realized my heart is
still racing.
(07:32):
I was still hyperventilating.
And all of a sudden it occurred to
me, I'm managing my fear, but my fear
hasn't gone.
I didn't want to manage my fear.
I wanted my fear to be gone.
I didn't want to have to think about
it.
I didn't want to have to worry about
it.
I didn't want to be distracted by it.
(07:53):
And that's what I think is most insidious
about the fear of speaking is that it's
distracting.
It takes up mental bandwidth.
Physically, you know, mentally, you're worried on some
level, you're worried that it's going to show,
you're trying to manage your fear.
Minimize it when you really want to put
(08:13):
your energy into communicating instead of managing.
And I know that therapists understand this from
with their clients.
So I decided I was going to get
rid of it.
I mean, I had already done all the
Google searches to figure out, you know, what
was available publicly to help me and I'd
(08:35):
read books and nothing really got to me.
But I decided, okay, what are the tools
I know?
And one of them is something called focusing.
And probably, you know, many of your people
in your audience have heard of it where
you listen into your body and you imagine
the distress in your body and you speak
to it from a body place.
(08:56):
So I decided to close my eyes and
ask the fear, if the fear could talk,
what would it say?
And what came back to me was, you're
going to be attacked.
And all of a sudden, I remembered all
these childhood experiences where my sisters attacked me
every time mom put me in the center
(09:18):
of attention.
She would say, Linda is such a good
girl.
Why can't you two girls be more like
Linda?
Yeah.
Of course they hated it.
She set you up, yeah.
She set it up, I know.
And you know, and here's another irony.
I was the good girl because I saw
them get punished and I thought that's never
going to happen to me.
And it never did for mom, but it
(09:40):
certainly did for my sisters.
And then I had this duh moment.
Of course I'm not comfortable being the center
of attention because I learned it was dangerous.
And then I started to think, well, what
else taught me it was dangerous?
And I thought about in seventh grade when
all the girls said, nobody talked to Linda
(10:00):
and no one did for four days.
And I remember how impactful that was because
after that, I thought, people don't want to
hear from me.
People don't want to hear what I have
to say.
And then I thought about how that time
I brought home my straight A report card
and mom looked at it and she said,
(10:21):
why an A minus and not an A
plus?
And feeling like, oh, I'm not good enough
for her.
I have to be perfect in order to
be good enough.
Countless other things.
I started to like comb through my, what
I call the psychic closet, the Jungian idea
of the psychic closet of the psyche and
(10:42):
just kind of clean out whatever I could
find.
Like what was there that may have impacted
me?
And it turned out that I had some
self-help tools that I had been taught
by a friend and Eliza Bergeson, who was
a kinesiologist, a transformational kinesiologist.
(11:02):
One was EFT.
I also had been using creative visualization from
a book called Creative Visualization by Shakti Gawain.
Everyone who was around and interested in the
70s or the 80s, I think it came
out in 86.
Everybody had that book.
And then I did journaling and I did
dance because my background's in dance movement therapy.
(11:24):
And at night, I remember lying awake in
the middle of the night thinking, okay, who
else said anything mean to me or anything
that made me, belittled me or shamed me
or I felt humiliated.
And I forgave them.
I'd say, I forgive you for embarrassing me
(11:46):
in front of the class.
I forgive you.
And then I forgave myself.
And after five days, and I'm still doing
my Periscope daily.
After five days, my heart wasn't racing.
I felt present because I wasn't being pulled
into the past, even unconsciously by these things.
(12:08):
And it was thrilling.
And I went on to do another 200
days of live streaming, feeling very present, very
happy, like delighted.
And it wasn't that I started to work
with people with this right away.
I actually kind of kept it to myself,
but I mentioned to a few people that
I had done this for myself.
And all of a sudden, people started to
(12:28):
say, oh, do you think it would work
for me?
And I said, I don't know.
I had my issues.
I have my modalities that I like, but
let's try it.
And so one thing led to the other.
And once I realized that this was something
that could help other people and not just
people getting on camera, because that's where I
(12:50):
was.
I wasn't a speaker on a stage.
Although in my Women's World music group, I
did have to introduce songs and that totally
changed too.
Oh my gosh.
When my song came up to be introduced,
I remember thinking, oh good, it's my turn
to speak.
And like that feeling of enthusiasm was revelatory
(13:11):
to me that I could actually look forward
to it rather than dread it.
Mm-hmm, yeah.
So in the meantime, once I started to
work with clients, I discovered all these other
areas that can be impactful that I hadn't
realized when I was just working with myself
or with my first client.
(13:32):
So as therapists, not licensed as a therapist,
but we all know that we learn from
our clients, right?
Oh yeah, mm-hmm.
And it's the same thing in this area
of what are the experiences that people had
that impacted them?
Because I would, you know, I'd question them.
(13:52):
I'd have them reflect back.
And when we couldn't find the things in
the areas that I was aware of, something
would pop up.
For instance, I had one client who, he
said, I had a lot of friend groups
because I asked him, what about your friends?
And he said, I had a lot of
friend groups, but I always felt on the
(14:12):
outside.
I had the nerd friends and the drama
friends and the athletes, but I was never
on the inside.
And I said, is it possible that you
felt like, oh, those are the people who
should be asked.
Those are the people who are popular.
Those are the people that others wanna hear
from.
No one really wants to hear from me.
(14:34):
Kind of like when I got bullied in
seventh grade.
And he said, oh my gosh, yes, that's
what it feels like.
Or another client I had, we couldn't find
anything in his family.
Totally supportive, but not too much, not too
pushy.
You know, great with the siblings.
And then in school, he was liked by
all his teachers and he had friends and
(14:55):
he was never bullied.
And then I said, where were you in
your class rank?
And he said, oh, I was valedictorian.
I said, do you think it's possible that
you felt that people liked you, people valued
you because you were so smart, that you
were always at the top of your class,
(15:16):
that you were always perfect?
Because remember in school, you get the highest
grades for not making any mistakes.
And he said, yeah, I feel like if
I make any mistake, I'm a failure and
that people aren't gonna like me.
Yeah, and it's interesting because it's such a
common fear.
It's easy to write it off as just
(15:36):
like, this is a thing humans are afraid
of.
Instead of taking some time and some intention
and seeing what is it that I specifically
am afraid of?
Like, what is this rooted back into from
my past that keeps me scared and keeps
me not trying it or keeps me not
exposure therapy my way through it?
(15:57):
Yes, and you know, this is why I
feel that idea that it's in our human
design to be afraid.
I think it's just the opposite because if
you look at kids, when they're learning to
speak, you can't get them to stop.
So what happens and they're completely unselfconscious.
What happens between then and now?
(16:20):
Well, it's all the conditioning that we had.
You know, it's the dysfunctional family systems.
It's the school system that, you know, makes
us afraid of mistakes, that embarrasses us in
front of schoolmates, that the mean teachers or
the, you know, the testing and feeling like
we're being scrutinized and evaluated on every move
(16:43):
we make and that the idea of expressing
ourselves freely is stamped down because of classroom
management and that there's one way to get
to the right answer instead of multiple ways.
I mean, there's been a lot of new
research and intelligence that's been infused, but basically
the system is very traumatic for most people.
(17:05):
Very few people get out of school not
feeling some kind of injury from the experience.
Right, which also, you know, has to do
with the age.
Like we can't get through adolescence without injury.
We can't get through, especially like navigating those
relationships, friendships, hormones, all of it.
Like it's all just a messy, messy experience.
It's very messy and our society is messy.
(17:27):
And, you know, one of, I mean, one
of the things that I think is so
beautiful about therapists is that you're light workers.
You know, we are trying to help change
human and society, human consciousness and society.
So it's a kinder, more supportive and encouraging
place.
(17:48):
Right.
So I'm hearing for therapists who, like maybe
when they've thought about the impact they want
to have on the world or a marketing
strategy to fill their practice, they've considered public
speaking at some level.
What I'm hearing is if you're reticent or
if you cannot keep your panic at bay
(18:09):
after multiple times of trying, there's likely some
tendrils into your past that are worth exploring.
I love that word, tendrils.
Yes.
And so like in my book, Delight in
the Limelight, I lay out a framework, a
three-part framework.
And the first part is to reveal and
heal.
So to uncover what could be the reason
(18:30):
why you decided it was safer to hide.
And then to heal it with, you know,
I have my modalities, but you can use
any kind of modalities.
I promote a multi-modality approach just because
I feel that we're multi-dimensional.
And when it goes to healing these things,
I love something called EFT or emotional freedom
techniques.
Some people know it as tapping, but I
(18:51):
don't rely on it alone.
I then may do some like inner parenting,
inner child work, do some physical, you know,
I'm a movement person.
I might do some music movement, doing forgiveness
definitely, because ultimately we want to let go.
We want to change the relationship that we
had to the past.
(19:11):
Just, I mean, I'm talking to the choir
here, but just as a reminder, it's the
same thing with this fear of public speaking.
And it could be the way that we,
you know, and all of the listeners as
therapists, it's there a growing edge for them
to be able to heal another aspect of
their past because all therapists have done a
(19:34):
lot of healing work, but maybe haven't thought
about this particular area.
Right, because it's just so ubiquitous, right?
Like everybody's afraid of public speaking.
Right, exactly.
That's why it never occurred to me.
I mean, the tools that I use to
get over my fear, I had had those
for probably two decades.
I just didn't know I had stuff to
heal until I came up against that block
(19:56):
in a very public way.
And I imagine, I can't think of anyone
who hasn't gotten the message to stop talking,
to be smaller, that what they have to
say isn't important, who they are isn't important.
I can't think of a single person who
hasn't had that experience at some point growing
up and into their adulthood.
(20:17):
I have come across some.
I mean, even as I said, among my
clients, I've had a couple.
In fact, I also worked with somebody recently
who loved speaking, felt really, really good at
it until last year.
And she wasn't sure what happened, what happened
(20:37):
that she lost her confidence.
And it was interesting, she kind of set
herself up, but it was twofold.
One is that she set herself up and
two, that she has a very competitive nature
and also very smart at the top of
her class, liked being better than other people.
(21:01):
And so she had taken over somebody's position
who had ended their tenure on a high
note.
He had invested in some coaches to help
him create his last presentation to the organization.
He killed it.
And she thought, she went in and she
(21:21):
said the next year, she said, wasn't that
amazing?
He killed it.
Let's see if I can top him.
And I was thinking, no, don't say that.
Please stop.
It's akin to somebody introducing you as, this
person's the funniest person you'll ever hear.
(21:41):
You're gonna be, and then everyone's like waiting.
Okay, is he funny?
Is he funny?
No, you don't wanna set yourself up with
high expectations that then you have to fulfill.
So that was one thing that happened to
her.
And the other is that her mother had
recently passed away and she didn't realize, she's
(22:03):
not a person who cries.
And when she decided to say something or
refer to her mom in her talk, cause
it fit in with something.
And as she did it, she became emotional
and it threw her off.
And she was afraid that she was going
(22:25):
to, like her voice got shaky and she
felt like unstable and distracted obviously.
And all of a sudden she was afraid,
oh, now what's going on with me?
She started downward spiral.
Is this gonna happen again?
And so we needed to unpack that.
Why did she get triggered?
(22:46):
And also unpack, is it okay to be
emotional when you speak?
And does it mean that you're gonna fall
apart or can you have a moment and
also gift an audience with a moment?
Yeah, I can imagine that was the most
riveting moment of her entire talk.
Absolutely, but it terrified her.
And it set her up for fearing the
(23:09):
next talk she was gonna give.
I mean, what was interesting, I don't know
where this came from, but I said to
her, she was really hooked on people telling
her how great she was.
I said, how much do you feel you
need people to tell you how great you
are in order to feel how great you
are?
Is it possible that you've had enough?
(23:31):
If it still comes, how wonderful, what a
gift that is, but can you decide that
it's more important what you communicate than people
say, that was amazing?
And that shifted it for her.
And I think that's one of the things
that on some level we can easily get
(23:53):
caught up on because we want to feel
like we're good enough.
We wanna feel like we're okay, that people
like us, that they like what we have
to say, that they think well of us,
that they hold us in regard.
So there is part of us that wants
people to say, what a great speaker you
are, or that was wonderful, I love listening
(24:14):
to you.
That feeds a part of us that maybe
didn't get it earlier on.
And so it's like a little hole in
the bucket that needs to fill up that
we may not like admitting to, but it's
there.
Yeah, I remember, so I told you, I
performed with the Women's World Music Group and
(24:36):
I was the principal dancer.
And I did this one dance, it's a
trance dance from Egypt.
It's so powerful.
And people would often cry.
It's very simple, but it's emotional and it
builds up and then it ends.
And I know the impact on the audience.
(24:56):
And I did it, I don't know, 25,
30 years, almost every performance.
And people would come up to me and
they say, that was amazing, that just brought
me to tears.
It felt so impactful.
I don't know what it did for me,
but I know it was big.
And after a while, I came to expect
(25:16):
that.
And I felt like, I don't need that
anymore.
I mean, it's nice to know, but it's
not, it's like I'm already filled up.
I'm certain, I'm confident in the impact that
dance makes.
And I'm doing it for service.
I'm doing it because I know that there's
(25:40):
someone in the audience that needs this experience.
Not because I'm looking for people to say,
oh, Linda, you're an amazing dancer or something
like that.
And when you're coming from service, there's a
different energy.
I think about that with therapists.
If you are going out and giving talks
in your community and you're coming from desperation,
(26:01):
send me clients, I need to fill my
caseload, that kind of energy, it feels very
different for the audience than if you're there
to share information you know will be helpful
for people.
Absolutely, absolutely.
So yes, we need to understand what is
my need for affirmation, validation from others.
(26:22):
And if there is that, that can be
a clue to what needs to be healed.
Where didn't I get validation as a kid
or earlier on and who did I want
it from?
And let's see how we can clear that
away.
Well, Linda, thank you so much.
You've got your book, Delight in the Limelight.
I love the cover art, I can see
(26:44):
it behind you for anybody watching on YouTube
versus listening, like it's awesome.
So we will put a link to that
in the show notes so that people can
check it out because I think like what
you're bringing up about processing through that stuff
that makes it hard and scary for us,
like it prevents us from being of service
in this way.
And for people building their practice, it can
(27:05):
make growing slower in a way that it
doesn't have to be.
Absolutely, because when you are free of it,
then as I said, it's like, oh good,
it's my turn to speak.
Right, yes, I love it.
Amazing, thank you so much.
Thank you for having me on, Allison.
Take care.
Make sure your email is actually HIPAA compliant
(27:28):
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(27:51):
If you're listening, you probably need some support
building your practice.
If you're a super newbie, grab our free
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I'd love for you to follow, rate, and
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this episode with a therapist friend.
Let's help all our colleagues build what they
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