June 18, 2025 • 28 mins
Abundance Community member Shannah and I dive into the challenges of feeling stuck in a niche and marketing rut. We explore her passion for supporting individuals—especially educators—experiencing burnout and anxiety, and how to refine her niche to highlight her expertise in working with parents across various life stages. We also talk through her goal of becoming more visible as an expert in her field, and the hurdles of showing up on social media. From faceless reels to Canva hacks, we look at creative ways to share her message while building confidence on camera.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:06):
(Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) Hi, welcome to the Abundant Practice Podcast.
I'm Allison from Abundance Practice Building.
I have a nearly diagnosable obsession with helping
therapists build sustainable, joy-filled private practices, just
like I've done for tens of thousands of
therapists across the world.
I'm excited to help you too.
If you want to fill your practice with
(00:26):
ideal clients, we have loads of free resources
and paid support.
Go to abundancepracticebuilding.com slash links.
All right, on to the show.
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(03:00):
Hey, Shanna.
How are you doing?
You know, I'm good.
Yeah.
What would be most helpful today?
Thanks for meeting with me.
I was so excited to kind of get
a time with you.
I am about a year, not quite a
year, more like 10 months into practice.
Okay.
(03:21):
And it really latched onto your program, right?
When people are like, well, how did you
do this?
Or how did you figure out this?
I'm like, it's all abundance practice building.
Like it's like no original content.
It's just all you.
I appreciate that so much.
Yay.
Thank you.
So I feel like a good place to
(03:41):
spend time today would be this like marketing
rut that I'm feeling.
Okay.
A little bit of like a niche rut.
Because I've been licensed for 20 some years.
I did some original like agency work and
worked with victims of crime in an agency.
(04:03):
And then spent a lot of time in
schools.
I was a high school counselor for alternative
kids.
And then I ran a program for homeless
students.
So I did some admin stuff and then
kind of like ready for a change, went
into private practice.
So I started off with this kind of
niche that felt, I think, a little roomy,
(04:25):
right?
I really like to work with people and
get them back into things that make them
successful.
Part of their community is doing what they
need to do.
And so my niche, I think, was something
like I work with people who are having
problems that are like getting in the way
of school and work.
Which I know is not super formed.
(04:46):
I'd never had it like really formed.
But that's what I would kind of tell
people.
My caseload is like pretty diverse.
I see about anywhere from like 18 to
22 people a week, which is kind of
like, maybe I'd like to go like a
little bit less.
Yeah.
But a lot of my clients do have
stuff that's like they come in like my
(05:06):
adults feeling like burned out from work, which
I love.
I love working with educators and helping them
kind of get excited about things again.
Right.
Yeah.
And I also love getting kids back in
school.
So I end up with like this, like
a lot of anxiety.
And so now when people are like, what
do you specialize in?
I say, you know, I kind of restate
(05:29):
my original mission and say, like, I end
up like with a lot of kids who
have anxiety, end up with like a lot
of kids who are afraid of throwing up.
Right.
This like OCD presentation.
And I'm like diving in.
I'm learning all about it.
But I do feel like without this like
strong niche, then like I don't know where
to go with marketing.
I end up like I'm posting stuff about
(05:51):
like mental health quotes in general.
Right.
Which is just wasting your time, really.
Honestly.
Yeah.
I think I have a full caseload because
I'm like pretty well connected.
Yeah.
Because networking works.
Yeah.
Networking builds a reputation.
Yes.
I grew up around like 20 minutes from
(06:13):
here.
I went to college and grad school around
here.
Like all my internships and jobs have been
around here.
So like I have a ton of different
referral sources, but I'm kind of feeling like
my marketing sucks.
Got it.
Well, let's amp it up.
I mean, like you said, the niche is
going to be the very first piece to
that.
Because when you say like, you know, something's
(06:33):
interfering with work or school, I'm like, well,
yeah, that's the diagnostic criteria for literally everything
in the DSM.
Right.
It's like to get people like back doing
what they like to do.
Yeah.
Well, you like the result.
They're looking first for the pain.
So let's figure out the pain specifically that
leads to people not functioning in the way
(06:53):
that they want and need to the problem
that lights you up the most.
So you've talked about kids with anxiety, for
instance, and your eyes just did a thing
when I said that too.
So a ton of it.
Yeah.
A ton of it.
Do you love it or are you like,
yeah, I can do it.
I think I love it.
(07:15):
I don't think I would love working with
exclusively with that, which I know.
And like you say, like, you won't work
exclusively with it.
But I even love these kind of rotten
teenagers.
Right.
That aren't doing everything they're supposed to be
doing.
Yeah.
But I could not have a whole caseload
of them because their sessions literally take all
(07:35):
of my energy out of me.
So, yes, I think most of them have
some sort of anxiety.
So, yes, anxiety.
You see that I'm feeling a little wishy
washy about it.
Yeah.
Like the so-called rotten teenagers.
Right.
They I love that.
I picture Greece for some reason dating me
(07:56):
a little bit.
But no, I can sing it off.
Yeah.
I'm thinking about how they probably aren't identifying
it as anxiety.
Right.
Their parents are the ones looking for it
because they're misbehaving.
They're not doing what's expected or wanted of
them.
But if kind of the through line between
your anxious kids and your kids who are
(08:18):
getting in trouble is that they're not attending
school regularly, then that could be your niche.
Terrified of school, of anxiety and avoidance is
a niche.
And I've kind of played around with it.
Like I just did a space training that
was over a couple of days over Easter.
I just feel like it's so hard.
(08:38):
OK, then let's not do that.
We don't want hard.
We want like joyful.
And yeah, it's just a little bit like
I worry that I don't have something that
works.
Right.
Because it's not a quick fix.
No.
Yeah.
And I've worked with a couple of kids
and we've gotten them back in school and
it's been really great.
But I worry that like I haven't totally
(08:58):
figured it out.
It's hard for me to like market and
something that I feel like, oh, this is
a solution and I can really help with
this because I'm afraid that sometimes I can't.
Yeah.
I want you confident at work.
We all have moments of imposter syndrome.
Even if we've been treating the same problem
for 20 years, we'll have a moment of
it.
But I don't want it to be like
a daily situation.
(09:20):
So I think there's a difference between like
what I see like the little kids or
like teenagers that are kind of like avoiding
some things and like that school avoidance avoidance.
Right.
Like that.
Like I can't I can't get my foot
in the door.
Right.
Like I've got a tummy ache that's based
on anxiety.
And then the parents are like, well, after
school, you go.
(09:41):
Sorry about that.
Versus refuse.
Right.
Yeah.
Okay.
So what about I'm thinking about like parents
are the ones looking for the therapist.
So what if it's more based on the
parents experience of their kids, whether it's like
they don't like they feel like they don't
know how to help their kid.
(10:02):
And then you can break that down into
a few different presentations.
So like your kid is anxious all the
time.
They don't always know they're anxious.
And it took you a minute to figure
out that they're anxious.
But now, you know, you realize that so
much of their behavior is based on anxiety
or your kids getting into trouble and you
(10:23):
don't feel like you have the supports to
get them back on track.
Or if there's another one, you know, like
if you enjoy parent coaching or you enjoy
the grown up version of either of those
things, then you could also talk about that.
But I think that was one thing I
really latched on to, I think, early on
in watching your content was this idea of
(10:45):
like, and maybe because I like the idea
that it made my niche a little like
roomier, but this idea of this problem and
how it looks throughout the lifespan.
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
Right.
This like, anxiety that shows up in childhood
could sometimes be this negative self talk and
adulthood, right?
(11:05):
Like that gets people from kind of where
they want to be.
Yeah.
So I mean, what if we framed it
as anxiety?
You could.
So like, there's the obvious kid anxiety, like
once the parents like, oh, this is anxiety.
I need to get therapy for my kid.
That one's more obvious.
You can frame the rotten teenagers as anxiety
(11:27):
as well, because so often it is of
like, teenagers are under pressures when we were
never under like social media, all these kinds
of things.
It's a different world for them.
And sometimes the way they manage that different
world is to act in ways that we
hate, you know, and like to list some
of what you like to work with, with
those kids so that those parents can see
(11:48):
their kids in it.
And then adults with anxiety, where the anxiety
is getting in the way of their confidence
at work, their confidence in relationships.
But I think you got to be really
specific about the daily lived experience of the
parent of anxious kids, the parent of rotten
teenagers and the daily lived experience of the
(12:09):
adult.
Like, I imagine like your website having three
columns, basically, like you have your hero image
at the very top, you have your tagline,
essentially, and then three different columns or photos
with some words that they can link to
the specialty page.
Yeah, so right now I have like, an
(12:31):
adult adults with anxiety, like page and then
like children and teens.
I'd split up the children and teens if
their presentation is so different.
Yeah.
And even this, and I don't mean to
like, make it more complicated, but even like
the teens presentation is so different too, because
sometimes they are not doing what they're supposed
(12:53):
to do.
Sometimes they're doing everything they're supposed to do.
Yep.
Right.
And they're driving themselves into this like anxious.
What if you frame that as like teenagers
off the rails, because they're going too far
one side and the other.
Yeah.
And you can talk about how like, on
the surface, the kid who is stressing out
(13:14):
about getting all A's feels like a much
nicer problem to have than the experience that
other parents are having.
But that the lived experience of that kind
of compulsion and stress can be just as
difficult as a parent.
Okay.
And so you're okay with that?
Or are you just going along with it
that I have like three different populations here?
(13:37):
I mean, it's all anxiety.
So it's like, as long as the presenting
concern is really solid, and you talk about
the experience of anxiety, and you know, if
there's a particular kind of anxiety you'd like
best that is across the lifespan, then I
would definitely talk about that.
Because I generally feel less attached to the
(14:00):
demographic than I do the problem when it
comes to niche.
But you can't have like an across the
lifespan niche without like an actual niche, like
a problem, problem, you know, and anxiety.
I mean, it's got its own heading in
the DSM.
It works.
So a little bit more like a diagnosis,
right?
(14:20):
So this problem, then the presenting problem, like
can't manage they aren't, you know, the anxiety
that's getting in the way of success or
happiness, not happiness, but something like that.
Yeah, you could frame it as like anxiety
is getting in the way of success, and
sometimes just functioning.
(14:41):
So I think about those little kids who
are just now realizing like those families who
are just realizing that's anxiety or the person
who stays plateaued in their career, because they
don't feel confident enough to do the presentations
they need to do to move up those
kinds of things.
Feel like I can work with this.
(15:01):
Yeah.
And that means the specialty pages, like you
really need to go hard on the lived
experience.
So when you have your kids with anxiety,
all the different ways that that shows up
for them, how that shows up for them
socially, how it shows up for them physically,
how it shows up for their dynamic with
(15:21):
their parent.
And remember, you're talking to the parents and
all of this.
So you can come from that perspective of
how do these worried parents describe what's happening
at home when they first call you.
And then same for the teenager, like teenagers
off the rails, you can say like your
first paragraph can say like, I end up
treating teenagers on both sides of off the
(15:44):
rails, basically.
And then go deeper into each and the
parent experience of each with empathy for the
kid interspersed throughout.
And then the adult, get really clear on
that ideal adult.
Really clear.
Is it a parent?
Is it like the mom trying to keep
everything together in the family while also being
(16:06):
the breadwinner while maybe dealing with a teenager
who is off the rails in one way,
who was once that kid with anxiety and
never got help for it.
And this is how it's manifested as they
age and go through life experiences.
Can I incorporate work in there a little
bit?
For sure.
Right.
(16:29):
Burned out.
And like, what do you do when you're
burned out, but like, you can't stop doing
your job, you know, like you're so anxious
and so exhausted and you have to keep
going.
There's no out for you.
I feel like I can play around with
it a little bit.
I think I have some of it already
on the website, but I think this will
help to like, really clear it up and
(16:53):
get very specific.
And I think some of my marketing stuff,
I'd really like to, this sounds a little
bit like self-serving, I think a little
bit.
Okay.
Like, I'd really like to be like, seen
as an expert.
Yeah.
Right?
Like, I have insurance space.
(17:14):
I take three insurances.
I have like a threshold, like I won't
take an insurance underneath like I'm like 105,
I think it's the lowest insurance reimbursement in
Akron.
I'm in Akron, Ohio.
So there's, there are a lot of private
pay therapists, but I am not one of
them.
(17:34):
I have like probably about 20% private
pay because I don't take insurance and they
decide to pay anyway.
Yeah.
I think eventually that's probably like a direction
for me, maybe.
Okay.
But more important than that, I just want
to be like an expert.
Right.
Well, and I made the assumption that you
were taking insurance because you don't have a
(17:55):
niche in your full.
So I think if you want to get
off insurance, you do have to pick a
more specific niche.
Like you would need to choose one of
the three we've talked about and go hard
on it.
That doesn't mean you won't get the other
ones, you know, but the majority of your
niche will be whatever, or the majority of
your caseload will be that niche that positions
(18:17):
you as the expert.
What do you, when you say you want
to be an expert, what do you want
to be an expert on?
I do like helping parents with kids, right?
Like I like seeing the kids, but I
like helping parents with kids.
I feel a lot less capable maybe of
being an expert in like the adult world.
(18:39):
So I can decide.
I'm also going to, I had a really
hard time getting into that like OCD foundation
training, the BTTI one.
So I'm going to Houston for that next,
next month.
I'm going to kind of play around with
that, like OCD with kids and like all
(19:01):
the different ways that presents.
And so that potentially is something I could
really niche down.
Oh yeah.
And I mean, no matter where you are,
there are not enough OCD for kids therapists.
Like one of my closest friends' daughter has
OCD and it has been hell trying to
find truly niched care.
People who really know what they're doing with
OCD and not just anxiety.
(19:23):
I have had people, but I feel like
I'm, I'm learning on the fly, right?
Yeah.
Like five or six, but I'm open, like
I'm reading the book over the weekend to
be like, okay, what am I doing next
session?
What is this like?
Because I was on wait lists and stuff
to get into these things.
And so I'm really, as part of this
like first year for me, it's been like,
I just really want to figure out how
(19:44):
to give good clinical care.
Yeah.
Perfect.
You know, I'm not a new counselor, but
I'm like new to private practice and I
just want to be really good at what
I'm doing.
Like I want to help.
Yeah, absolutely.
So as far as like kind of marketing
at this stage where I'm like going to
(20:04):
be a little more niche, but not like
moving into like the next level of your
program yet, which I forget what it's called.
Yeah.
And that'd be great when you want to
switch to OCD, if you decide that's what
you want to do and like get to
the private pay world.
So scary.
Yeah.
So this level of marketing, I was really
(20:26):
good on blogs for like probably eight months.
Right.
I think my SEO is like pretty good.
People can Google me, find me now, right.
My referral basis.
Do you have any like social media content
ideas?
I'm like feeling like I'm in a total
rut.
Yeah.
And I'll tell you one thing I don't
(20:46):
do is videos.
Okay.
So then it was not worth it to
do social media if you're not going to
do videos because you're not going to get
any leverage.
I don't like myself in videos.
I know I'm the same way or I
was the I got over it with a
lot of exposure.
I don't understand how your skin is so
great.
(21:07):
Well, thank you.
I'm really just using drugstore stuff, but I
mean, same, but this is, that's all I
see.
Like the shadows on my face and I
can't get lighting right.
Oh, it's all lighting.
I mean, really like if I, this is
a desktop, so I can't pick it up,
but if I brought it over here, you'd
be like, oh, but I'm just in front
(21:28):
of a South facing window.
That's all it is.
So for you probably getting the right ring
lights, if you don't have a South facing
window, it could make a world of difference
because from here, your skin looks great.
There are shadows because you don't have the
lighting, but if it's just about self judgment,
I promise you with enough practice, it goes
away or it less, it gets quieter.
(21:50):
I should say.
And then it's like, what you're matters more
to you than what you're beating yourself up
with as that quiets.
Yeah.
I do feel like I get a lot
of referrals from social media, but they're like,
people like, no, right.
They're not.
And which is a bit like, it's a
big chunk of my referrals.
(22:11):
It's like somebody I went to high school
with sees like something that I posted and,
you know, they tell a friend and, you
know, they're recommending me in mom chat groups
and things like that, which is so nice.
So you do think I get referrals, but
they're not, it's not coming from like a
wider community of people.
(22:32):
I don't know.
So I might try.
You can try faceless reels while you're working
on building up your courage to be on
video because being on video is going to
make people connect to you 10,000 times
more than just something you post.
But also I don't know what to say
to people.
(22:52):
Oh, I got you covered with that.
Don't worry about that.
Let me find this faceless account real quick.
So my friend Julia started on Instagram.
The handle is the flow brain, all one
word.
And like, sometimes there are some pictures of
(23:12):
her or videos of her in the background,
but you can't really see her face at
all because words are on top of it.
And she grew that thing to 28,000
followers, almost 29,000 followers without ever talking
directly to the camera.
I think, yeah, there's one where she interviewed
somebody where both their faces are on there,
but for the most part, she's not doing
(23:33):
what most people do, but the content on
the reels are really valuable.
So look at her, see if you can
model some of that.
You can use Canva for the backgrounds.
Those are videos, but they're not like...
They're not of you.
Yeah.
So put a trending sound behind it, write
some really helpful, truly helpful, truly niched content
(23:57):
on top of the photo and let it
go for like a few seconds.
I don't know how long hers are.
Looks like about three seconds.
So then they get a lot of views
because people are reading the words and it
takes them like, you know, 30 seconds to
read the words.
So that's 10 views right there with one
(24:17):
person.
So I didn't know that's how that worked.
Yeah.
The one person's like 10 views.
Okay.
Okay.
I can look into that.
I can try that.
So truly helpful, truly niched.
Am I doing like what I do in
therapy?
Well, you're not talking about like in therapy,
(24:40):
but you're like, think about the things you
say a lot in therapy.
What's something you're always saying to anxious kids?
Usually first session, we do this like fire
alarm analogy, right?
Like anxiety is your fire alarm going off.
Sometimes there's no smoke, no fire.
Yeah.
So you could be like, try this colon.
And my first sessions with clients, with kids,
(25:03):
I talk about how anxiety is their fire
alarm, that it's just alerting them that something
is going on that they need to pay
attention to.
Try saying it like this and then put
an arrow down and say like, check the
caption.
And then you can kind of walk a
parent through how you explain the fire alarm.
(25:24):
That's an actionable thing that they can take
away.
Don't be afraid to like give away the
great things you say in therapy.
That's not going to prevent someone from coming
to see you.
That's going to make them more likely to
see you.
Because if you're going to give that away
on Instagram or Facebook, what are you going
to do in session?
So when you think about your anxious adults,
(25:44):
when you think about the teenagers, your ideal
parents probably have some empathy for these misbehaving
teens, right?
Like they're pissed off at them and they
want them to act right, but they still
love their kid.
And so tapping into that empathy and talking
about why kids behave in that way sometimes
(26:06):
and why that's so hard for parents and
how they've done everything they knew to do
up to this point and they feel like
they're failing.
Like you can tap into that truth for
parents, thinking about your anxious adults.
And I mean, like if your people struggle
with perfectionism, for instance, your adults, you can
(26:26):
talk about how it's freezing them at work,
how if they just were willing to do
a shitty first draft of something, it would
allow them to make some real progress because
it doesn't have to be great right out
of the gate.
You can edit it and make it what
you need, that kind of thing.
And that you're thinking like, could be like,
(26:48):
there's an introduction to it, but the actual
content is in the comments.
I would put it on the reel for
the most part, but to go a little
deeper in the comments sometimes.
And sometimes you could just be like, what
are your thoughts on this question mark?
(27:09):
Is empathy with your misbehaving teens something you
struggle with?
You're totally human if so.
So I would keep a little notepad next
to you for sessions and just write down
the themes or the phrases you've, you're like,
oh yeah, I definitely say that more than
once a week and you'll end up building
up content ideas really quickly.
(27:29):
It looks like we're up on time.
So hopefully that's a good running start for
you.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
I will talk to you soon.
Okay.
Thanks.
Bye.
Bye.
If you're ready for a much easier practice,
TherapyNotes is the way to go.
Go to TherapyNotes.com and use the promo
(27:50):
code ABUNDANT for two months free.
Make sure your email is actually HIPAA compliant
with Powebox.
Use code ABUNDANT to get Powebox for less
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If you're listening, you probably need some support
building your practice.
If you're a super newbie, grab our free
(28:11):
checklist using the link in the show notes.
I'd love for you to follow, rate, and
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Let's help all our colleagues build what they
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(Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) Hi, welcome to the Abundant Practice Podcast.
I'm Allison from Abundance Practice Building.
I have a nearly diagnosable obsession with helping
therapists build sustainable, joy-filled private practices, just
like I've done for tens of thousands of
therapists across the world.
I'm excited to help you too.
If you want to fill your practice with
(00:26):
ideal clients, we have loads of free resources
and paid support.
Go to abundancepracticebuilding.com slash links.
All right, on to the show.
So I've talked about therapy notes on here
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(00:47):
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(01:09):
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Second, they are proudly independently owned.
Why should you care about that?
Because as soon as venture capital becomes involved,
(01:30):
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Prices go way up, innovation plateaus, making more
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You can try two months free at therapynotes
(01:53):
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Some of y'all aren't sending HIPAA compliant
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Even if you're paying for a business Google
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emails still aren't a hundred percent compliant.
That's where Powerbox comes in.
You can connect Powerbox to your Google workspace
or Microsoft 365 email one time and you're
(02:16):
completely covered.
No one has to sign into portals.
It sends and it shows up like any
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Behind the scenes, Powerbox software checks the security
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We check the boxes we need to check
(02:37):
and this is the easiest way to do
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.com.
Use code abundant.
(03:00):
Hey, Shanna.
How are you doing?
You know, I'm good.
Yeah.
What would be most helpful today?
Thanks for meeting with me.
I was so excited to kind of get
a time with you.
I am about a year, not quite a
year, more like 10 months into practice.
Okay.
(03:21):
And it really latched onto your program, right?
When people are like, well, how did you
do this?
Or how did you figure out this?
I'm like, it's all abundance practice building.
Like it's like no original content.
It's just all you.
I appreciate that so much.
Yay.
Thank you.
So I feel like a good place to
(03:41):
spend time today would be this like marketing
rut that I'm feeling.
Okay.
A little bit of like a niche rut.
Because I've been licensed for 20 some years.
I did some original like agency work and
worked with victims of crime in an agency.
(04:03):
And then spent a lot of time in
schools.
I was a high school counselor for alternative
kids.
And then I ran a program for homeless
students.
So I did some admin stuff and then
kind of like ready for a change, went
into private practice.
So I started off with this kind of
niche that felt, I think, a little roomy,
(04:25):
right?
I really like to work with people and
get them back into things that make them
successful.
Part of their community is doing what they
need to do.
And so my niche, I think, was something
like I work with people who are having
problems that are like getting in the way
of school and work.
Which I know is not super formed.
(04:46):
I'd never had it like really formed.
But that's what I would kind of tell
people.
My caseload is like pretty diverse.
I see about anywhere from like 18 to
22 people a week, which is kind of
like, maybe I'd like to go like a
little bit less.
Yeah.
But a lot of my clients do have
stuff that's like they come in like my
(05:06):
adults feeling like burned out from work, which
I love.
I love working with educators and helping them
kind of get excited about things again.
Right.
Yeah.
And I also love getting kids back in
school.
So I end up with like this, like
a lot of anxiety.
And so now when people are like, what
do you specialize in?
I say, you know, I kind of restate
(05:29):
my original mission and say, like, I end
up like with a lot of kids who
have anxiety, end up with like a lot
of kids who are afraid of throwing up.
Right.
This like OCD presentation.
And I'm like diving in.
I'm learning all about it.
But I do feel like without this like
strong niche, then like I don't know where
to go with marketing.
I end up like I'm posting stuff about
(05:51):
like mental health quotes in general.
Right.
Which is just wasting your time, really.
Honestly.
Yeah.
I think I have a full caseload because
I'm like pretty well connected.
Yeah.
Because networking works.
Yeah.
Networking builds a reputation.
Yes.
I grew up around like 20 minutes from
(06:13):
here.
I went to college and grad school around
here.
Like all my internships and jobs have been
around here.
So like I have a ton of different
referral sources, but I'm kind of feeling like
my marketing sucks.
Got it.
Well, let's amp it up.
I mean, like you said, the niche is
going to be the very first piece to
that.
Because when you say like, you know, something's
(06:33):
interfering with work or school, I'm like, well,
yeah, that's the diagnostic criteria for literally everything
in the DSM.
Right.
It's like to get people like back doing
what they like to do.
Yeah.
Well, you like the result.
They're looking first for the pain.
So let's figure out the pain specifically that
leads to people not functioning in the way
(06:53):
that they want and need to the problem
that lights you up the most.
So you've talked about kids with anxiety, for
instance, and your eyes just did a thing
when I said that too.
So a ton of it.
Yeah.
A ton of it.
Do you love it or are you like,
yeah, I can do it.
I think I love it.
(07:15):
I don't think I would love working with
exclusively with that, which I know.
And like you say, like, you won't work
exclusively with it.
But I even love these kind of rotten
teenagers.
Right.
That aren't doing everything they're supposed to be
doing.
Yeah.
But I could not have a whole caseload
of them because their sessions literally take all
(07:35):
of my energy out of me.
So, yes, I think most of them have
some sort of anxiety.
So, yes, anxiety.
You see that I'm feeling a little wishy
washy about it.
Yeah.
Like the so-called rotten teenagers.
Right.
They I love that.
I picture Greece for some reason dating me
(07:56):
a little bit.
But no, I can sing it off.
Yeah.
I'm thinking about how they probably aren't identifying
it as anxiety.
Right.
Their parents are the ones looking for it
because they're misbehaving.
They're not doing what's expected or wanted of
them.
But if kind of the through line between
your anxious kids and your kids who are
(08:18):
getting in trouble is that they're not attending
school regularly, then that could be your niche.
Terrified of school, of anxiety and avoidance is
a niche.
And I've kind of played around with it.
Like I just did a space training that
was over a couple of days over Easter.
I just feel like it's so hard.
(08:38):
OK, then let's not do that.
We don't want hard.
We want like joyful.
And yeah, it's just a little bit like
I worry that I don't have something that
works.
Right.
Because it's not a quick fix.
No.
Yeah.
And I've worked with a couple of kids
and we've gotten them back in school and
it's been really great.
But I worry that like I haven't totally
(08:58):
figured it out.
It's hard for me to like market and
something that I feel like, oh, this is
a solution and I can really help with
this because I'm afraid that sometimes I can't.
Yeah.
I want you confident at work.
We all have moments of imposter syndrome.
Even if we've been treating the same problem
for 20 years, we'll have a moment of
it.
But I don't want it to be like
a daily situation.
(09:20):
So I think there's a difference between like
what I see like the little kids or
like teenagers that are kind of like avoiding
some things and like that school avoidance avoidance.
Right.
Like that.
Like I can't I can't get my foot
in the door.
Right.
Like I've got a tummy ache that's based
on anxiety.
And then the parents are like, well, after
school, you go.
(09:41):
Sorry about that.
Versus refuse.
Right.
Yeah.
Okay.
So what about I'm thinking about like parents
are the ones looking for the therapist.
So what if it's more based on the
parents experience of their kids, whether it's like
they don't like they feel like they don't
know how to help their kid.
(10:02):
And then you can break that down into
a few different presentations.
So like your kid is anxious all the
time.
They don't always know they're anxious.
And it took you a minute to figure
out that they're anxious.
But now, you know, you realize that so
much of their behavior is based on anxiety
or your kids getting into trouble and you
(10:23):
don't feel like you have the supports to
get them back on track.
Or if there's another one, you know, like
if you enjoy parent coaching or you enjoy
the grown up version of either of those
things, then you could also talk about that.
But I think that was one thing I
really latched on to, I think, early on
in watching your content was this idea of
(10:45):
like, and maybe because I like the idea
that it made my niche a little like
roomier, but this idea of this problem and
how it looks throughout the lifespan.
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
Right.
This like, anxiety that shows up in childhood
could sometimes be this negative self talk and
adulthood, right?
(11:05):
Like that gets people from kind of where
they want to be.
Yeah.
So I mean, what if we framed it
as anxiety?
You could.
So like, there's the obvious kid anxiety, like
once the parents like, oh, this is anxiety.
I need to get therapy for my kid.
That one's more obvious.
You can frame the rotten teenagers as anxiety
(11:27):
as well, because so often it is of
like, teenagers are under pressures when we were
never under like social media, all these kinds
of things.
It's a different world for them.
And sometimes the way they manage that different
world is to act in ways that we
hate, you know, and like to list some
of what you like to work with, with
those kids so that those parents can see
(11:48):
their kids in it.
And then adults with anxiety, where the anxiety
is getting in the way of their confidence
at work, their confidence in relationships.
But I think you got to be really
specific about the daily lived experience of the
parent of anxious kids, the parent of rotten
teenagers and the daily lived experience of the
(12:09):
adult.
Like, I imagine like your website having three
columns, basically, like you have your hero image
at the very top, you have your tagline,
essentially, and then three different columns or photos
with some words that they can link to
the specialty page.
Yeah, so right now I have like, an
(12:31):
adult adults with anxiety, like page and then
like children and teens.
I'd split up the children and teens if
their presentation is so different.
Yeah.
And even this, and I don't mean to
like, make it more complicated, but even like
the teens presentation is so different too, because
sometimes they are not doing what they're supposed
(12:53):
to do.
Sometimes they're doing everything they're supposed to do.
Yep.
Right.
And they're driving themselves into this like anxious.
What if you frame that as like teenagers
off the rails, because they're going too far
one side and the other.
Yeah.
And you can talk about how like, on
the surface, the kid who is stressing out
(13:14):
about getting all A's feels like a much
nicer problem to have than the experience that
other parents are having.
But that the lived experience of that kind
of compulsion and stress can be just as
difficult as a parent.
Okay.
And so you're okay with that?
Or are you just going along with it
that I have like three different populations here?
(13:37):
I mean, it's all anxiety.
So it's like, as long as the presenting
concern is really solid, and you talk about
the experience of anxiety, and you know, if
there's a particular kind of anxiety you'd like
best that is across the lifespan, then I
would definitely talk about that.
Because I generally feel less attached to the
(14:00):
demographic than I do the problem when it
comes to niche.
But you can't have like an across the
lifespan niche without like an actual niche, like
a problem, problem, you know, and anxiety.
I mean, it's got its own heading in
the DSM.
It works.
So a little bit more like a diagnosis,
right?
(14:20):
So this problem, then the presenting problem, like
can't manage they aren't, you know, the anxiety
that's getting in the way of success or
happiness, not happiness, but something like that.
Yeah, you could frame it as like anxiety
is getting in the way of success, and
sometimes just functioning.
(14:41):
So I think about those little kids who
are just now realizing like those families who
are just realizing that's anxiety or the person
who stays plateaued in their career, because they
don't feel confident enough to do the presentations
they need to do to move up those
kinds of things.
Feel like I can work with this.
(15:01):
Yeah.
And that means the specialty pages, like you
really need to go hard on the lived
experience.
So when you have your kids with anxiety,
all the different ways that that shows up
for them, how that shows up for them
socially, how it shows up for them physically,
how it shows up for their dynamic with
(15:21):
their parent.
And remember, you're talking to the parents and
all of this.
So you can come from that perspective of
how do these worried parents describe what's happening
at home when they first call you.
And then same for the teenager, like teenagers
off the rails, you can say like your
first paragraph can say like, I end up
treating teenagers on both sides of off the
(15:44):
rails, basically.
And then go deeper into each and the
parent experience of each with empathy for the
kid interspersed throughout.
And then the adult, get really clear on
that ideal adult.
Really clear.
Is it a parent?
Is it like the mom trying to keep
everything together in the family while also being
(16:06):
the breadwinner while maybe dealing with a teenager
who is off the rails in one way,
who was once that kid with anxiety and
never got help for it.
And this is how it's manifested as they
age and go through life experiences.
Can I incorporate work in there a little
bit?
For sure.
Right.
(16:29):
Burned out.
And like, what do you do when you're
burned out, but like, you can't stop doing
your job, you know, like you're so anxious
and so exhausted and you have to keep
going.
There's no out for you.
I feel like I can play around with
it a little bit.
I think I have some of it already
on the website, but I think this will
help to like, really clear it up and
(16:53):
get very specific.
And I think some of my marketing stuff,
I'd really like to, this sounds a little
bit like self-serving, I think a little
bit.
Okay.
Like, I'd really like to be like, seen
as an expert.
Yeah.
Right?
Like, I have insurance space.
(17:14):
I take three insurances.
I have like a threshold, like I won't
take an insurance underneath like I'm like 105,
I think it's the lowest insurance reimbursement in
Akron.
I'm in Akron, Ohio.
So there's, there are a lot of private
pay therapists, but I am not one of
them.
(17:34):
I have like probably about 20% private
pay because I don't take insurance and they
decide to pay anyway.
Yeah.
I think eventually that's probably like a direction
for me, maybe.
Okay.
But more important than that, I just want
to be like an expert.
Right.
Well, and I made the assumption that you
were taking insurance because you don't have a
(17:55):
niche in your full.
So I think if you want to get
off insurance, you do have to pick a
more specific niche.
Like you would need to choose one of
the three we've talked about and go hard
on it.
That doesn't mean you won't get the other
ones, you know, but the majority of your
niche will be whatever, or the majority of
your caseload will be that niche that positions
(18:17):
you as the expert.
What do you, when you say you want
to be an expert, what do you want
to be an expert on?
I do like helping parents with kids, right?
Like I like seeing the kids, but I
like helping parents with kids.
I feel a lot less capable maybe of
being an expert in like the adult world.
(18:39):
So I can decide.
I'm also going to, I had a really
hard time getting into that like OCD foundation
training, the BTTI one.
So I'm going to Houston for that next,
next month.
I'm going to kind of play around with
that, like OCD with kids and like all
(19:01):
the different ways that presents.
And so that potentially is something I could
really niche down.
Oh yeah.
And I mean, no matter where you are,
there are not enough OCD for kids therapists.
Like one of my closest friends' daughter has
OCD and it has been hell trying to
find truly niched care.
People who really know what they're doing with
OCD and not just anxiety.
(19:23):
I have had people, but I feel like
I'm, I'm learning on the fly, right?
Yeah.
Like five or six, but I'm open, like
I'm reading the book over the weekend to
be like, okay, what am I doing next
session?
What is this like?
Because I was on wait lists and stuff
to get into these things.
And so I'm really, as part of this
like first year for me, it's been like,
I just really want to figure out how
(19:44):
to give good clinical care.
Yeah.
Perfect.
You know, I'm not a new counselor, but
I'm like new to private practice and I
just want to be really good at what
I'm doing.
Like I want to help.
Yeah, absolutely.
So as far as like kind of marketing
at this stage where I'm like going to
(20:04):
be a little more niche, but not like
moving into like the next level of your
program yet, which I forget what it's called.
Yeah.
And that'd be great when you want to
switch to OCD, if you decide that's what
you want to do and like get to
the private pay world.
So scary.
Yeah.
So this level of marketing, I was really
(20:26):
good on blogs for like probably eight months.
Right.
I think my SEO is like pretty good.
People can Google me, find me now, right.
My referral basis.
Do you have any like social media content
ideas?
I'm like feeling like I'm in a total
rut.
Yeah.
And I'll tell you one thing I don't
(20:46):
do is videos.
Okay.
So then it was not worth it to
do social media if you're not going to
do videos because you're not going to get
any leverage.
I don't like myself in videos.
I know I'm the same way or I
was the I got over it with a
lot of exposure.
I don't understand how your skin is so
great.
(21:07):
Well, thank you.
I'm really just using drugstore stuff, but I
mean, same, but this is, that's all I
see.
Like the shadows on my face and I
can't get lighting right.
Oh, it's all lighting.
I mean, really like if I, this is
a desktop, so I can't pick it up,
but if I brought it over here, you'd
be like, oh, but I'm just in front
(21:28):
of a South facing window.
That's all it is.
So for you probably getting the right ring
lights, if you don't have a South facing
window, it could make a world of difference
because from here, your skin looks great.
There are shadows because you don't have the
lighting, but if it's just about self judgment,
I promise you with enough practice, it goes
away or it less, it gets quieter.
(21:50):
I should say.
And then it's like, what you're matters more
to you than what you're beating yourself up
with as that quiets.
Yeah.
I do feel like I get a lot
of referrals from social media, but they're like,
people like, no, right.
They're not.
And which is a bit like, it's a
big chunk of my referrals.
(22:11):
It's like somebody I went to high school
with sees like something that I posted and,
you know, they tell a friend and, you
know, they're recommending me in mom chat groups
and things like that, which is so nice.
So you do think I get referrals, but
they're not, it's not coming from like a
wider community of people.
(22:32):
I don't know.
So I might try.
You can try faceless reels while you're working
on building up your courage to be on
video because being on video is going to
make people connect to you 10,000 times
more than just something you post.
But also I don't know what to say
to people.
(22:52):
Oh, I got you covered with that.
Don't worry about that.
Let me find this faceless account real quick.
So my friend Julia started on Instagram.
The handle is the flow brain, all one
word.
And like, sometimes there are some pictures of
(23:12):
her or videos of her in the background,
but you can't really see her face at
all because words are on top of it.
And she grew that thing to 28,000
followers, almost 29,000 followers without ever talking
directly to the camera.
I think, yeah, there's one where she interviewed
somebody where both their faces are on there,
but for the most part, she's not doing
(23:33):
what most people do, but the content on
the reels are really valuable.
So look at her, see if you can
model some of that.
You can use Canva for the backgrounds.
Those are videos, but they're not like...
They're not of you.
Yeah.
So put a trending sound behind it, write
some really helpful, truly helpful, truly niched content
(23:57):
on top of the photo and let it
go for like a few seconds.
I don't know how long hers are.
Looks like about three seconds.
So then they get a lot of views
because people are reading the words and it
takes them like, you know, 30 seconds to
read the words.
So that's 10 views right there with one
(24:17):
person.
So I didn't know that's how that worked.
Yeah.
The one person's like 10 views.
Okay.
Okay.
I can look into that.
I can try that.
So truly helpful, truly niched.
Am I doing like what I do in
therapy?
Well, you're not talking about like in therapy,
(24:40):
but you're like, think about the things you
say a lot in therapy.
What's something you're always saying to anxious kids?
Usually first session, we do this like fire
alarm analogy, right?
Like anxiety is your fire alarm going off.
Sometimes there's no smoke, no fire.
Yeah.
So you could be like, try this colon.
And my first sessions with clients, with kids,
(25:03):
I talk about how anxiety is their fire
alarm, that it's just alerting them that something
is going on that they need to pay
attention to.
Try saying it like this and then put
an arrow down and say like, check the
caption.
And then you can kind of walk a
parent through how you explain the fire alarm.
(25:24):
That's an actionable thing that they can take
away.
Don't be afraid to like give away the
great things you say in therapy.
That's not going to prevent someone from coming
to see you.
That's going to make them more likely to
see you.
Because if you're going to give that away
on Instagram or Facebook, what are you going
to do in session?
So when you think about your anxious adults,
(25:44):
when you think about the teenagers, your ideal
parents probably have some empathy for these misbehaving
teens, right?
Like they're pissed off at them and they
want them to act right, but they still
love their kid.
And so tapping into that empathy and talking
about why kids behave in that way sometimes
(26:06):
and why that's so hard for parents and
how they've done everything they knew to do
up to this point and they feel like
they're failing.
Like you can tap into that truth for
parents, thinking about your anxious adults.
And I mean, like if your people struggle
with perfectionism, for instance, your adults, you can
(26:26):
talk about how it's freezing them at work,
how if they just were willing to do
a shitty first draft of something, it would
allow them to make some real progress because
it doesn't have to be great right out
of the gate.
You can edit it and make it what
you need, that kind of thing.
And that you're thinking like, could be like,
(26:48):
there's an introduction to it, but the actual
content is in the comments.
I would put it on the reel for
the most part, but to go a little
deeper in the comments sometimes.
And sometimes you could just be like, what
are your thoughts on this question mark?
(27:09):
Is empathy with your misbehaving teens something you
struggle with?
You're totally human if so.
So I would keep a little notepad next
to you for sessions and just write down
the themes or the phrases you've, you're like,
oh yeah, I definitely say that more than
once a week and you'll end up building
up content ideas really quickly.
(27:29):
It looks like we're up on time.
So hopefully that's a good running start for
you.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
I will talk to you soon.
Okay.
Thanks.
Bye.
Bye.
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