August 6, 2025 • 33 mins
Aja Evans, LMHC joins me in today’s episode to talk about her upcoming book on money in therapy—how it shows up in the room, and why it matters for both therapists and clients. We dig into common financial struggles faced by therapists (especially women), gaps in financial education during grad school, and how social media can distort our sense of financial reality. Aja also shares her take on wealth, class, and power dynamics in the therapy world, plus what she hopes readers take away from the book. We wrap up with a personal chat about housing, future goals, and what’s next for her. Visit ajaevanscounseling.com for Aja's book Feel Good Finance.
Attention Abundance Community members: Aja is our Abundance Community trainer for August 2025. For details on the live training via Zoom, email the HelpDesk or check out the event listing in our private Abundance Community Facebook group.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:06):
(Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) Hi, welcome to the Abundant Practice Podcast.
I'm Allison from Abundance Practice Building.
I have a nearly diagnosable obsession with helping
therapists build sustainable, joy-filled private practices, just
like I've done for tens of thousands of
therapists across the world.
I'm excited to help you too.
If you want to fill your practice with
ideal clients, we have loads of free resources
(00:29):
and paid support.
Go to abundancepracticebuilding.com slash links.
All right, onto the show.
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(00:50):
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(01:12):
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(01:33):
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(01:53):
.com with the coupon code abundant.
Welcome back to the Abundance Practice Podcast.
I'm your host, Alison Pereira.
And today I'm here with Asia Evans, who
has been here before.
We are going to be talking about money.
So I'm going to just suggest every single
one of you listen to this entire episode,
because as we were chatting before we hit
(02:15):
record, everybody I've ever worked with ever, except
one person as a therapist has some money
stuff.
So we're going to get into some of
that.
So thanks for being here, Asia.
Thank you for having me, Alison.
I'm so excited to come back and just
dive into one of my favorite topics, which
I could quite literally talk about all day.
So I'm excited to talk about it.
(02:35):
Awesome.
Yeah.
Well, I'll share that like, as I mentioned,
only one person has not had some money
stuff.
We grow up with money stuff.
I think most people have money stuff.
And then our grad programs do some work
on us with money stuff.
You work with all kinds of folks, not
just therapists, but also therapists around money things.
(02:58):
So can you kind of give us a
broad overview of what money hangups you see
amongst most people?
Yeah.
I'll be honest.
The first thing that came to mind is
like the money hangups that come up for
therapists, but I'm sure we will get there.
Yeah, yeah.
But what I will say for most people,
and I talk to a lot of women,
so I will preface that.
(03:19):
Majority of my clients are women.
I do see other people, but majority are
women.
And one thing that I see over and
over with women is that they feel like
they don't know enough.
And what is stopping them is their, what
they feel like is the lack of education.
I don't know enough about money, investing, what
(03:40):
account, 405-123, like what is this mean?
And that really stops people and keeps them
stuck or stalled out into potentially growing their
wealth or just doing things that are going
to benefit them in longer term.
The second thing I see a lot is
money avoidance, sometimes because of the first reason,
other times just because it makes them uncomfortable.
(04:03):
They've had financially traumatic things come up in
their life.
They're scared.
It's very anxiety-inducing, so they just don't
deal with their money at all and ignore
it, which is probably one of the scariest
things you can do is ignore it versus
facing it.
Most times when people finally face it and
we're doing it together, because I will do
it with my clients and look at their
(04:23):
money with them, they feel so much relief.
So if that's you right now feeling like
you're ignoring your bank accounts, you will feel
relief on the other side of this.
It may not be forever, but that step
is really important.
And then I would say the third thing
that people are really struggling with is just
how to navigate relationships when it comes to
(04:45):
money.
So that could mean partnerships, marriages, families, boundaries
are all mixed in together with how that
kind of shows up for them on a
regular basis.
Yeah.
And I think about how culture plays into
that too.
100%.
Every single one of those three, culture is
in there.
Society is in there.
100%.
Yeah.
(05:05):
And so we are in a predominantly female
role as therapists, like most therapists are women.
So I'm guessing all those things apply plus
the things that you see most in therapists.
Can we talk a little bit about that?
Yeah.
So I am an entrepreneurial therapist type of
(05:26):
person.
So I really like the business side of
therapy, of working, of setting up a practice.
Honestly, even when I wasn't in private practice,
I liked the business side of the other
aspects of being in community mental health or
working for a program.
So that I find makes therapists very nervous
(05:46):
or uncomfortable that they feel like they need
to either have an MBA, and that means
they cannot handle the budget, the P&L,
so the profit and losses.
I cannot handle the money or the things
because I don't even know what I'm talking
about, because it feels like you should almost
either be a therapist or care about business.
(06:07):
And that they are not at war, they
are one.
If you're a therapist with a practice, that's
your business.
This is a big deal.
And that brings me to the next point,
which is, and this is part of my
story in that a lot of times, and
I think we've all heard it in some
way, shape or form, you are in grad
school, you're going into interning, there's the, you
(06:28):
have to pay your dues, you're not in
this for the money.
And these are kind of like money narratives,
if you will, or money beliefs that were
passed down to us from our institutions, if
you will.
But you're not in this for the money,
you have to pay your dues, trial by
fire, you are not going to make any
money, you shouldn't be making money from this,
(06:49):
you shouldn't profit from this.
All of that kind of verbiage and language
around almost like this piety oath, we feel
like we need to be taking as therapists,
really interrupts how we're able to build healthy
boundaries with our clients around payment, it really
hampers us and holds us back from saying,
(07:10):
hey, I'm gonna raise my prices, or raising
your prices appropriately, every single year, and then
having those conversations.
So that's very loaded.
But you know, yeah, yeah, that's what I
see a lot from therapists talking about money
and what comes up for them and just
feeling icky and feeling weird about, oh, gosh,
I'm gonna charge this person for this no
(07:31):
show, and they're getting charged the full rate.
And other people think that's weird, or I
shouldn't do that, or that's uncomfortable for me.
And how do I do that?
So a lot of those conversations.
Yeah, absolutely.
I think about, we're in a culture where
women are starting to be like more women
are starting to be the breadwinners in their
(07:52):
family than ever before.
And so now we've got a lot of
women who are making more and don't know
anything about finance and are scared and are
a lot less confident in their ability to
learn or understand.
Yeah, I think about the whole girls don't
like math thing that we're also kind of
raised with.
(08:14):
And then I think about therapists who are
now business owners.
And this is probably going to come out
harsher than I mean it.
But you can't own a business and ignore
the money side.
Like you absolutely are not a business owner.
You're just like a hoping it works out
owner.
Yeah, volunteer and I don't want that for
anybody.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
(08:34):
Like you have to really understand the money
in your business in order for it to
stay open because money is the lifeblood of
any business and it will not stay open
if you're not making money.
I think about these messages.
I distinctly remember being told you're not going
to make money in this profession while I
was in grad school and how completely false
(08:55):
it is.
And I didn't know it at the time
and how we all have bills.
So like maybe we didn't go into it
for the money.
I think if we went into it, if
we were going into a profession for the
money, we would not be therapists because we
were all told we wouldn't make any money.
And why do this when there are so
many other things that make more that are
less emotionally exhausting?
Exactly.
(09:15):
I was like, and we're not carrying the
emotional labor.
Exactly.
Yep.
Yeah, we're not doing it for the money
and we deserve to make money.
Period.
There is not a single group as a
profession that I would rather have a lot
of money than therapists.
100%.
I love that.
And I don't think people talk about it
in that way.
Like, what if therapists had all of the
(09:37):
money?
What if we were the richest people?
I mean, that's exciting to me to think
about that is very exciting.
And the possibility of what that would mean
for communities.
Yes.
The whole world.
The whole world.
Because along with being like, if we were
like the best paid profession or something, there
would also be absolutely no stigma in seeing
(09:59):
a therapist.
Correct.
And research.
Yes.
All types of populations and just money going
into it to, you know, healthier humans do
better.
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
RIP research funding.
But I think the level of sitting down
(10:20):
with people and looking at their finances that
you do, you probably have so much better
perspective than most people, because you've seen many
more people's finances, in the way that a
financial advisor might see a lot of people's
finances, things like that, right?
Like you sit down, but you also handle
the emotional side with them.
And so like, financial therapy is a thing
(10:40):
for anybody who doesn't know Asia's a financial
therapist.
And I find it such a fascinating and
exciting piece of our field.
Yeah, because we avoid it and all the
other sides of our field.
Like how often are we really getting into
money with our clients?
Yeah, I would have felt more comfortable earlier
(11:01):
in my career talking about sex any day
of the week than money with my clients.
Yeah.
And that shows us how loaded it is.
Yes.
And how avoidant we can be in it.
Like when I think about going through grad
programs, and I loved my grad program, but
we need a whole course on building businesses.
(11:21):
It needs to be baked in.
And you know, I graduated a long time
ago.
Maybe this has happened.
And if it has, please reach out and
let me know because I am very curious
about it.
But there needs to be coursework on not
just running organizations or running private practices, but
how are you managing grants, getting grants, funding
(11:45):
research, making money for your private practice?
Again, with the P&Ls, like taxes, I
think there is something really important there around
the business acumen that we all need to
be running businesses around mental health that we
are just totally missing when we are being
(12:06):
educated.
And I think we hide behind it's boring
when really it's scary and confrontive.
Ah, so well said.
And it's interesting because I'm like, I am
so excited about them.
Like, what do you mean it's boring?
Why?
So looking at it that way, that maybe
it's just scary and it's not boring.
Or I don't want to do this.
(12:27):
I'm not in it for the business.
That's okay.
But you still need to do this.
Do you want to be a director one
day?
Do you want to run a program?
Do you want a private practice?
You need to know this stuff.
Or even just understanding it.
I mean, I was a board member for
years.
And they would hand out the P&Ls
at every monthly meeting.
And I would look at it and my
eyes would cross like I was like, I
don't know what I'm looking at.
I feel like an idiot saying this in
(12:49):
front of these accountants and attorneys and these
other people in these professions that seem to
know what they're looking at.
But it seems backwards to me.
Why is there a minus when it's a
plus?
I just didn't understand how to read it.
And didn't ask for assistance in understanding because
of my ego because I didn't want to
look stupid.
Right.
And not stupid at all.
(13:09):
You're just like, Hey, this is not my
wheelhouse.
But I want it to be.
And that is also another great example.
Because you're right.
We need us in the boardrooms.
We need us in those decision making at
those decision making tables to say, hey, clinically,
this is what's going on.
But that also means that we need to
understand what's happening at the business level.
(13:30):
And I believe more now than ever, especially
with how much tech is disrupting mental health
in general.
We need clinical people at the table having
these conversations.
And we need to be able to sit
there and feel confident knowing about what the
budgets that we're looking at and the influx
(13:51):
of income, but also being able to say,
Okay, I understand how much money this is
going to cost or not.
Or this is why we believe in this
longevity of this type of treatment, because x,
y, z, x, y, z, but we need
a business part of it.
So yeah, yeah.
I know that you wrote a book that
feel good finance.
So talk about feel good finance and why
(14:11):
you wrote it because writing a book is
a whole thing.
You really have to have passion.
Nobody writes a book just because they only
halfway care.
Yeah.
It's it's a long process.
So no, you definitely don't just write a
book without having passion or drive to kind
of want to get your thoughts and feelings
(14:31):
out there.
But I loved it, which has been so
nice to unlock another part of myself and
realize like, Oh, Asia, you are a writer.
Everything that you have done has led up
to you realizing that you're also a writer.
You like money, you like mental health, and
you like to write.
So like, this is what I want my
professional career to look like.
(14:53):
And you hear those three things, and they
sound like they don't go together.
But that really has been the past.
So I wrote this book, because when I
was in my 20s, and in my mid
20s, I felt weird about money.
I didn't understand it.
I didn't know what was going on.
I didn't know why my credit cards weren't
being paid off.
If I was just doing the minimums.
I didn't know why I didn't have enough
(15:13):
money, what my budget was, why were my
student loans so high.
I just didn't understand.
And in that, I felt like I wanted
what there's so much information out here now
that this was not the case back then.
But I wanted to tap into the emotional
side.
I wanted to do the digging that we
(15:34):
do very often in therapy around money.
Like, why does my self esteem feel weird
when my friends are able to go on
these trips, but I can't afford to go?
What's coming up in me and dissecting that.
So I wrote Feel Good Finance, and literally
dedicated the book to Baby Asia.
Because that's what I needed so much at
(15:54):
that time, for somebody to be like, okay,
let's walk you through what's going on.
So that's what I do for the reader.
I walk you through the historical context of
money and how it has shown up in
our society and how that impacts different people
in specific ways.
Then I walk through our psychological context of
(16:15):
how we grew up, what was modeled for
us, what was represented, what were those money
beliefs that we kind of formulated, and then
held on to without realizing they're showing up
in a way in our adulthood that we
may not like anymore.
And then I give examples of how it
shows up in our everyday life and what
we want to do about that.
(16:36):
So it could be money avoidance, it could
be comparing yourself or trying to keep up
with the Joneses.
It could be trying to just not worry
about your partner managing all your money and
that you don't need to worry your little
heart about it.
So I really walk the reader through very
common situations and narratives that my clients have
experienced, that I have experienced around their money
(16:59):
and ask them to get really honest with
yourself.
Do you like this or do you want
to make a change?
And even if it came from something as
rooted in your family experience, it might mean
that, hey, this is how we grew up
and that was necessary at the time, but
this doesn't apply to my life anymore.
My life looks so different.
So do I need to start cultivating a
(17:21):
different message around my money beliefs?
Yeah.
And it's all rooted in childhood in my
mind.
There's so much that we get to sort
through when we start working on our money
stuff.
And I've been working on money stuff.
I remember being in my twenties in therapy
and realizing I hated rich people.
(17:42):
I was so jealous.
And I thought that they were bad and
they didn't have any idea of what it
was like for real people.
And I had just this real bias.
And I'm so glad that my therapist talked
to me through that and like worked with
me on it because it would have really
held me up when I was starting my
practice.
Why would I make money if I'm going
(18:04):
to, I don't want to be an asshole.
Right.
But people wouldn't think about that connection, then
kind of messing up your business.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But it absolutely would have if I hadn't
done that work.
And still I'm like literally today I released
a newsletter about buying this beautiful house in
(18:27):
this incredible neighborhood.
And I love it and it's wonderful.
And I bought that house out of pain
and I didn't realize it at the time.
I bought that house out of trying to
be good enough.
Yeah.
And so now we're like, well, what's more
us than this and how do we get
there?
Yeah.
And that's, I've done a lot of money
stuff, y'all.
(18:47):
So much money stuff.
And to have something like that bop me
on the head and then have to go
through the work of emotionally detaching from this
thing I thought I wanted.
And all the physical work of getting the
house ready to sell and blah, blah, blah,
you know?
Right.
Right.
I think there's this idea that you may
come into this type of work with one
(19:10):
thing.
Hey, I need to fix this one thing.
I need to fix my money mindset and
then I'm going to be fine as if
it will never show up again.
But we all know in therapy that is
just not the case.
It's going to keep coming back over and
over and over again and in different ways
even though you've done so much work on
it.
(19:30):
Yeah.
Absolutely.
So it's fascinating how our relationship with money
I think probably also mirrors a lot of
our other relationships and especially with like boundaries
and how we manage hard things.
Like are we more avoidant or are we
more like, all right, let me sit down
with a nice cozy cup of tea and
just like open my Bank of America account
(19:50):
or whatever, you know?
Yep.
How you do one thing is how you
do everything potentially, you know?
Yes.
You are taking you with you.
No matter where you go, you are still
going to be right there.
Yeah.
I think too, you probably have a really
good perspective on how much people are faking
it.
Like everybody thinks everybody else is doing just
(20:12):
fine.
Yes.
Tell me something about what you've noticed pattern
-wise amongst therapists or other people or whatever
with the faking it.
Well, listen, I am not going to make
this a time where we're going to rail
against social media because I do think that
there are good things and there are bad
things about social, right?
But one con, pro and con, I would
(20:33):
say is double-edged sword.
We have access into somebody showing us the
behind the scenes of their life.
We have access to, this is what my
kitchen looks like.
Even though I might not be highlighting my
kitchen, you're in their kitchen.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
(20:53):
And the amount of judgment that comes with
what somebody finds aesthetic or not aesthetic.
When somebody is just showing you, hey, I
made this really delicious brown sugar syrup for
my coffee.
Here's the recipe.
Turns into, look at those countertops.
And I see that subway tile.
And, oh my God, you have white appliances.
I had no idea that there was a
(21:15):
huge judgment for people with white appliances.
And I was like, oh my goodness.
But I bring this up because I think
when we get the behind the scenes, we
can make up the stories about who these
people are, how they pay for it, what's
going on.
And of course, all those stories are always
very positive.
They're making so much money.
They come from money.
(21:35):
This is, it's never, wow, they must be
swimming in debt.
Oh, wow.
They took out two mortgages to make this
happen.
Oh, this is what's going on.
We're not thinking about it in that way.
We're either passing judgment, assuming they have a
ton of money or make a ton of
money, or that somebody else gave them money.
It's never, wow, what if they have $100
(21:55):
,000 in credit card debt?
What if they're two seconds away from their
house being foreclosed on?
We're not thinking about it in that way.
So for me, the perspective is that we
never have the full picture.
We never have somebody else's full financial picture,
and we will fill in those gaps very
(22:15):
quickly without knowing.
So that's what I try to keep in
line for people to kind of check what's
going on.
You have no clue.
You just have no clue, and that's okay,
but let's not assume that they're in a
great position when you feel like you're not
because you actually might be in a better
position than they are financially.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You might not be up in the middle
of the night worrying about, if your reel
(22:37):
didn't do well enough, and you're not going
to be able to pay off that credit
card bill or whatever.
Yeah.
I love when people are like, here's my
normal kitchen and my untidy living room.
I'm just like, thank you.
Yeah.
Because I mean, I'm very conscious when I'm
filming at my own house.
I'm very conscious of what's behind me and
in a way that is not always real.
(22:59):
I'll admit it.
I'll clean up behind me in a way
that it wasn't like that five seconds ago,
but if I'm going to do a reel
or something, then I want to make sure
it's- It's necessary.
But to your point, I really like when
people kind of like, hey, this is the
beautiful kitchen you're seeing, but this is where
everything went to so that I can film
this beautiful angle of the kitchen.
Exactly.
And it just, we need to sometimes break
(23:21):
that glass to remember, oh, they are humans
too, right?
Nobody is living in these perfectly coiffed outfits.
I have little kids, so thinking about people
in matching dresses and bows and their hairs
looking great, like, my daughter wants nothing to
do with that.
I would do her hair and she would
(23:42):
roll around on the couch, but then I'm
like, wow, look at this mom out here
with her 3.5 kids and her clean
kitchen and everything looks great.
And I do it too, knowing that I
don't have the full perspective.
So it's very easy, friends, to get caught
up in it.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I think about too, my kids have
(24:03):
been going to a really wealthy school, we'll
just say.
I like doing a fancy school.
Yeah, it's very fancy.
They're no longer going to be going there.
This was my youngest last year there and
we're pulling her.
But seeing behind the curtain a little bit
and how many people are just, because how
much you make seems to be very important
(24:25):
to the people there, part of why we're
leaving.
And hearing some of the background, I'm like,
oh, well, I mean, it looks like they're
doing really well.
But in actuality, it's like gossip.
When that's not a community I want to
be a part of, it's people who are
going to gossip about people in a hard
time.
Or like, oh, so-and-so's mother is
(24:47):
nearly a billionaire, so blah, blah, blah.
They're great donors, that kind of thing.
I don't want to be a part of
any of that.
And it's funny because I got to be
a part of that.
I thought that I wanted the great education
for my kids, but when the culture is
not what I want and not in line
with our family values, then it's interesting to
(25:08):
get to a place of having the things
that I was supposed to want.
And being like, I actually don't want this.
Can we downsize?
What's real?
What do I actually want?
And at what cost?
And I think a lot of times, especially
when it comes to school, we love our
(25:28):
kids so much, we want the best for
them, but we don't always see how else
they're getting educated on top of the academic
education.
Because what your kids would be getting isn't
a crash course in wealth dynamics, in class
dynamics, in how you treat other people, and
what is important?
(25:48):
And do you like that or not?
And that's a social education that they're getting.
And to your point, you may be like,
hey, actually, this is not where our values
lie.
This is not that level of importance to
us.
And we don't want to be educating our
kids in that way, even though the academics
may match up with what you're looking for.
(26:09):
Because when kids are going to school, they're
learning so much more.
And I talk about that in my book
too, because it's part of my story.
And there's a lot of me in the
book as well.
But I talk about why wasn't my mom
buying me the $50 jeans from Abercrombie and
Fitch?
And this was a while ago, right?
So elder millennial, why wasn't she buying me
(26:29):
that?
And the cool kids had it.
And I wanted to be a cool kid.
And I thought it would make me feel
so good if I had these pairs of
jeans.
And when you're in middle school, that is
the most important thing to you.
And that's appropriate.
And it should be.
But when you are now surrounded by wealth
that looks different, it makes you feel different.
(26:50):
And the dichotomy for me was that I
actually was a wealthier kid in my school.
I didn't realize it until writing the book
and diving into my own money story.
But I was like, oh, wait.
I just didn't feel wealthy because of a
lot of the racial expectations or assumptions about
who my family was or where we lived,
(27:12):
because my parents chose to live in the
city instead of the suburbs.
Because they're both from New York City.
So they're like, oh, a brownstone.
This is lovely.
We're going to live here.
It's great.
It reminded them of home.
But that weird trying to make sense of
it when you're a child is how we
then impact what we do as adults.
So yes, I want you to know, Allison,
(27:33):
you're making a decision that for you and
for your family is going to impact how
they see money when they are older.
They were able to dip a toe into
it and have the experience, but now it
may shift.
And that's OK, too.
Yeah.
And I think in my mind, I was
like, I want my kids to see what's
possible for them because I didn't necessarily have
the same examples.
(27:54):
And now I'm like, yeah.
And that might not be what they want
ultimately.
I don't want my first grader asking me
why we don't have our own plane, like
so-and-so.
Not ideal.
That is not the norm.
And when you're amongst it all the time,
it feels like it's the norm.
Or they have to grow up and make
enough money so that they do have their
own plane.
(28:14):
You could, but you don't need to.
And I think about that whole keeping up
with the Joneses thing.
I don't think it's ever really intentional for
most people in a way that I used
to think of it as intentional, like, oh,
so-and-so got a Mercedes, so I
should get a Mercedes.
I think it's a lot more insidious when
everyone you're surrounded by is going to Europe
for at least a month in the summer.
(28:34):
Then it just seems like, well, it sucks
for me that I can't do that.
Or we need to make this happen because
this is normal.
And I think that happens at every socioeconomic
level.
100%.
There is a keeping up with the Joneses
that can happen.
Yeah.
And the assumptions that you make about other
people, the amount of articles that I see,
people are like, wow, these people who are
(28:55):
making over six figures are living paycheck to
paycheck.
That's crazy.
What's going on with them?
And as somebody who lives outside of New
York City, I live in Jersey.
Our taxes are notoriously high.
Mortgage rates are insane at this point.
It's really wild out there.
But I'm like, yeah, you make six figures.
(29:16):
But I can say other places, I know
for a fact their taxes are like $2
,000 a year, $5,000 a year.
Mine are like nearly triple or quadruple that.
And that is like, people don't look at
it that way.
Or just cost of child care or anything
like that.
So I think there's so much judgment around
money and assumptions that we make around people
(29:38):
who make what we deem as good money.
When you're not making good money, it's like,
am I behind?
I'm like, no, you might be making great
money for your area.
And that's amazing.
But we need to all touch some grass
and understand what our enough is.
And I want people...
(Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) Hi, welcome to the Abundant Practice Podcast.
I'm Allison from Abundance Practice Building.
I have a nearly diagnosable obsession with helping
therapists build sustainable, joy-filled private practices, just
like I've done for tens of thousands of
therapists across the world.
I'm excited to help you too.
If you want to fill your practice with
ideal clients, we have loads of free resources
(00:29):
and paid support.
Go to abundancepracticebuilding.com slash links.
All right, onto the show.
So I've talked about therapy notes on here
for years.
I could talk about the features and the
benefits in my sleep, but there are a
couple of things I want you to know
about therapy notes that doesn't typically make it
into an ad script.
First is that they actually care if you
(00:50):
like their platform.
They don't only make themselves available on the
phone to troubleshoot so you don't pull your
hair out when you get stuck.
They also take member suggestions and implement those
that there's client demand for, like therapy search,
an included listing service that helps clients find
you, internal and external secure messaging, clinical outcome
measures to keep an eye on how your
clients are progressing, a super smooth super bill
(01:12):
process, real-time eligibility to check on your
client's insurance.
In my conversations with the employees there at
all levels, they all really believe in their
product and they want you to love it
too.
Second, they are proudly independently owned.
Why should you care about that?
Because as soon as venture capital becomes involved,
the focus shifts from making customers happy to
(01:33):
making investors happy.
Prices go way up, innovation plateaus, making more
money with as little output as possible becomes
the number one focus.
With over 100,000 therapists using their platform,
they've been able to stay incredibly successful and
they don't have to sacrifice your experience to
stay there.
You can try two months free at therapynotes
(01:53):
.com with the coupon code abundant.
Welcome back to the Abundance Practice Podcast.
I'm your host, Alison Pereira.
And today I'm here with Asia Evans, who
has been here before.
We are going to be talking about money.
So I'm going to just suggest every single
one of you listen to this entire episode,
because as we were chatting before we hit
(02:15):
record, everybody I've ever worked with ever, except
one person as a therapist has some money
stuff.
So we're going to get into some of
that.
So thanks for being here, Asia.
Thank you for having me, Alison.
I'm so excited to come back and just
dive into one of my favorite topics, which
I could quite literally talk about all day.
So I'm excited to talk about it.
(02:35):
Awesome.
Yeah.
Well, I'll share that like, as I mentioned,
only one person has not had some money
stuff.
We grow up with money stuff.
I think most people have money stuff.
And then our grad programs do some work
on us with money stuff.
You work with all kinds of folks, not
just therapists, but also therapists around money things.
(02:58):
So can you kind of give us a
broad overview of what money hangups you see
amongst most people?
Yeah.
I'll be honest.
The first thing that came to mind is
like the money hangups that come up for
therapists, but I'm sure we will get there.
Yeah, yeah.
But what I will say for most people,
and I talk to a lot of women,
so I will preface that.
(03:19):
Majority of my clients are women.
I do see other people, but majority are
women.
And one thing that I see over and
over with women is that they feel like
they don't know enough.
And what is stopping them is their, what
they feel like is the lack of education.
I don't know enough about money, investing, what
(03:40):
account, 405-123, like what is this mean?
And that really stops people and keeps them
stuck or stalled out into potentially growing their
wealth or just doing things that are going
to benefit them in longer term.
The second thing I see a lot is
money avoidance, sometimes because of the first reason,
other times just because it makes them uncomfortable.
(04:03):
They've had financially traumatic things come up in
their life.
They're scared.
It's very anxiety-inducing, so they just don't
deal with their money at all and ignore
it, which is probably one of the scariest
things you can do is ignore it versus
facing it.
Most times when people finally face it and
we're doing it together, because I will do
it with my clients and look at their
(04:23):
money with them, they feel so much relief.
So if that's you right now feeling like
you're ignoring your bank accounts, you will feel
relief on the other side of this.
It may not be forever, but that step
is really important.
And then I would say the third thing
that people are really struggling with is just
how to navigate relationships when it comes to
(04:45):
money.
So that could mean partnerships, marriages, families, boundaries
are all mixed in together with how that
kind of shows up for them on a
regular basis.
Yeah.
And I think about how culture plays into
that too.
100%.
Every single one of those three, culture is
in there.
Society is in there.
100%.
Yeah.
(05:05):
And so we are in a predominantly female
role as therapists, like most therapists are women.
So I'm guessing all those things apply plus
the things that you see most in therapists.
Can we talk a little bit about that?
Yeah.
So I am an entrepreneurial therapist type of
(05:26):
person.
So I really like the business side of
therapy, of working, of setting up a practice.
Honestly, even when I wasn't in private practice,
I liked the business side of the other
aspects of being in community mental health or
working for a program.
So that I find makes therapists very nervous
(05:46):
or uncomfortable that they feel like they need
to either have an MBA, and that means
they cannot handle the budget, the P&L,
so the profit and losses.
I cannot handle the money or the things
because I don't even know what I'm talking
about, because it feels like you should almost
either be a therapist or care about business.
(06:07):
And that they are not at war, they
are one.
If you're a therapist with a practice, that's
your business.
This is a big deal.
And that brings me to the next point,
which is, and this is part of my
story in that a lot of times, and
I think we've all heard it in some
way, shape or form, you are in grad
school, you're going into interning, there's the, you
(06:28):
have to pay your dues, you're not in
this for the money.
And these are kind of like money narratives,
if you will, or money beliefs that were
passed down to us from our institutions, if
you will.
But you're not in this for the money,
you have to pay your dues, trial by
fire, you are not going to make any
money, you shouldn't be making money from this,
(06:49):
you shouldn't profit from this.
All of that kind of verbiage and language
around almost like this piety oath, we feel
like we need to be taking as therapists,
really interrupts how we're able to build healthy
boundaries with our clients around payment, it really
hampers us and holds us back from saying,
(07:10):
hey, I'm gonna raise my prices, or raising
your prices appropriately, every single year, and then
having those conversations.
So that's very loaded.
But you know, yeah, yeah, that's what I
see a lot from therapists talking about money
and what comes up for them and just
feeling icky and feeling weird about, oh, gosh,
I'm gonna charge this person for this no
(07:31):
show, and they're getting charged the full rate.
And other people think that's weird, or I
shouldn't do that, or that's uncomfortable for me.
And how do I do that?
So a lot of those conversations.
Yeah, absolutely.
I think about, we're in a culture where
women are starting to be like more women
are starting to be the breadwinners in their
(07:52):
family than ever before.
And so now we've got a lot of
women who are making more and don't know
anything about finance and are scared and are
a lot less confident in their ability to
learn or understand.
Yeah, I think about the whole girls don't
like math thing that we're also kind of
raised with.
(08:14):
And then I think about therapists who are
now business owners.
And this is probably going to come out
harsher than I mean it.
But you can't own a business and ignore
the money side.
Like you absolutely are not a business owner.
You're just like a hoping it works out
owner.
Yeah, volunteer and I don't want that for
anybody.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
(08:34):
Like you have to really understand the money
in your business in order for it to
stay open because money is the lifeblood of
any business and it will not stay open
if you're not making money.
I think about these messages.
I distinctly remember being told you're not going
to make money in this profession while I
was in grad school and how completely false
(08:55):
it is.
And I didn't know it at the time
and how we all have bills.
So like maybe we didn't go into it
for the money.
I think if we went into it, if
we were going into a profession for the
money, we would not be therapists because we
were all told we wouldn't make any money.
And why do this when there are so
many other things that make more that are
less emotionally exhausting?
Exactly.
(09:15):
I was like, and we're not carrying the
emotional labor.
Exactly.
Yep.
Yeah, we're not doing it for the money
and we deserve to make money.
Period.
There is not a single group as a
profession that I would rather have a lot
of money than therapists.
100%.
I love that.
And I don't think people talk about it
in that way.
Like, what if therapists had all of the
(09:37):
money?
What if we were the richest people?
I mean, that's exciting to me to think
about that is very exciting.
And the possibility of what that would mean
for communities.
Yes.
The whole world.
The whole world.
Because along with being like, if we were
like the best paid profession or something, there
would also be absolutely no stigma in seeing
(09:59):
a therapist.
Correct.
And research.
Yes.
All types of populations and just money going
into it to, you know, healthier humans do
better.
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
RIP research funding.
But I think the level of sitting down
(10:20):
with people and looking at their finances that
you do, you probably have so much better
perspective than most people, because you've seen many
more people's finances, in the way that a
financial advisor might see a lot of people's
finances, things like that, right?
Like you sit down, but you also handle
the emotional side with them.
And so like, financial therapy is a thing
(10:40):
for anybody who doesn't know Asia's a financial
therapist.
And I find it such a fascinating and
exciting piece of our field.
Yeah, because we avoid it and all the
other sides of our field.
Like how often are we really getting into
money with our clients?
Yeah, I would have felt more comfortable earlier
(11:01):
in my career talking about sex any day
of the week than money with my clients.
Yeah.
And that shows us how loaded it is.
Yes.
And how avoidant we can be in it.
Like when I think about going through grad
programs, and I loved my grad program, but
we need a whole course on building businesses.
(11:21):
It needs to be baked in.
And you know, I graduated a long time
ago.
Maybe this has happened.
And if it has, please reach out and
let me know because I am very curious
about it.
But there needs to be coursework on not
just running organizations or running private practices, but
how are you managing grants, getting grants, funding
(11:45):
research, making money for your private practice?
Again, with the P&Ls, like taxes, I
think there is something really important there around
the business acumen that we all need to
be running businesses around mental health that we
are just totally missing when we are being
(12:06):
educated.
And I think we hide behind it's boring
when really it's scary and confrontive.
Ah, so well said.
And it's interesting because I'm like, I am
so excited about them.
Like, what do you mean it's boring?
Why?
So looking at it that way, that maybe
it's just scary and it's not boring.
Or I don't want to do this.
(12:27):
I'm not in it for the business.
That's okay.
But you still need to do this.
Do you want to be a director one
day?
Do you want to run a program?
Do you want a private practice?
You need to know this stuff.
Or even just understanding it.
I mean, I was a board member for
years.
And they would hand out the P&Ls
at every monthly meeting.
And I would look at it and my
eyes would cross like I was like, I
don't know what I'm looking at.
I feel like an idiot saying this in
(12:49):
front of these accountants and attorneys and these
other people in these professions that seem to
know what they're looking at.
But it seems backwards to me.
Why is there a minus when it's a
plus?
I just didn't understand how to read it.
And didn't ask for assistance in understanding because
of my ego because I didn't want to
look stupid.
Right.
And not stupid at all.
(13:09):
You're just like, Hey, this is not my
wheelhouse.
But I want it to be.
And that is also another great example.
Because you're right.
We need us in the boardrooms.
We need us in those decision making at
those decision making tables to say, hey, clinically,
this is what's going on.
But that also means that we need to
understand what's happening at the business level.
(13:30):
And I believe more now than ever, especially
with how much tech is disrupting mental health
in general.
We need clinical people at the table having
these conversations.
And we need to be able to sit
there and feel confident knowing about what the
budgets that we're looking at and the influx
(13:51):
of income, but also being able to say,
Okay, I understand how much money this is
going to cost or not.
Or this is why we believe in this
longevity of this type of treatment, because x,
y, z, x, y, z, but we need
a business part of it.
So yeah, yeah.
I know that you wrote a book that
feel good finance.
So talk about feel good finance and why
(14:11):
you wrote it because writing a book is
a whole thing.
You really have to have passion.
Nobody writes a book just because they only
halfway care.
Yeah.
It's it's a long process.
So no, you definitely don't just write a
book without having passion or drive to kind
of want to get your thoughts and feelings
(14:31):
out there.
But I loved it, which has been so
nice to unlock another part of myself and
realize like, Oh, Asia, you are a writer.
Everything that you have done has led up
to you realizing that you're also a writer.
You like money, you like mental health, and
you like to write.
So like, this is what I want my
professional career to look like.
(14:53):
And you hear those three things, and they
sound like they don't go together.
But that really has been the past.
So I wrote this book, because when I
was in my 20s, and in my mid
20s, I felt weird about money.
I didn't understand it.
I didn't know what was going on.
I didn't know why my credit cards weren't
being paid off.
If I was just doing the minimums.
I didn't know why I didn't have enough
(15:13):
money, what my budget was, why were my
student loans so high.
I just didn't understand.
And in that, I felt like I wanted
what there's so much information out here now
that this was not the case back then.
But I wanted to tap into the emotional
side.
I wanted to do the digging that we
(15:34):
do very often in therapy around money.
Like, why does my self esteem feel weird
when my friends are able to go on
these trips, but I can't afford to go?
What's coming up in me and dissecting that.
So I wrote Feel Good Finance, and literally
dedicated the book to Baby Asia.
Because that's what I needed so much at
(15:54):
that time, for somebody to be like, okay,
let's walk you through what's going on.
So that's what I do for the reader.
I walk you through the historical context of
money and how it has shown up in
our society and how that impacts different people
in specific ways.
Then I walk through our psychological context of
(16:15):
how we grew up, what was modeled for
us, what was represented, what were those money
beliefs that we kind of formulated, and then
held on to without realizing they're showing up
in a way in our adulthood that we
may not like anymore.
And then I give examples of how it
shows up in our everyday life and what
we want to do about that.
(16:36):
So it could be money avoidance, it could
be comparing yourself or trying to keep up
with the Joneses.
It could be trying to just not worry
about your partner managing all your money and
that you don't need to worry your little
heart about it.
So I really walk the reader through very
common situations and narratives that my clients have
experienced, that I have experienced around their money
(16:59):
and ask them to get really honest with
yourself.
Do you like this or do you want
to make a change?
And even if it came from something as
rooted in your family experience, it might mean
that, hey, this is how we grew up
and that was necessary at the time, but
this doesn't apply to my life anymore.
My life looks so different.
So do I need to start cultivating a
(17:21):
different message around my money beliefs?
Yeah.
And it's all rooted in childhood in my
mind.
There's so much that we get to sort
through when we start working on our money
stuff.
And I've been working on money stuff.
I remember being in my twenties in therapy
and realizing I hated rich people.
(17:42):
I was so jealous.
And I thought that they were bad and
they didn't have any idea of what it
was like for real people.
And I had just this real bias.
And I'm so glad that my therapist talked
to me through that and like worked with
me on it because it would have really
held me up when I was starting my
practice.
Why would I make money if I'm going
(18:04):
to, I don't want to be an asshole.
Right.
But people wouldn't think about that connection, then
kind of messing up your business.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But it absolutely would have if I hadn't
done that work.
And still I'm like literally today I released
a newsletter about buying this beautiful house in
(18:27):
this incredible neighborhood.
And I love it and it's wonderful.
And I bought that house out of pain
and I didn't realize it at the time.
I bought that house out of trying to
be good enough.
Yeah.
And so now we're like, well, what's more
us than this and how do we get
there?
Yeah.
And that's, I've done a lot of money
stuff, y'all.
(18:47):
So much money stuff.
And to have something like that bop me
on the head and then have to go
through the work of emotionally detaching from this
thing I thought I wanted.
And all the physical work of getting the
house ready to sell and blah, blah, blah,
you know?
Right.
Right.
I think there's this idea that you may
come into this type of work with one
(19:10):
thing.
Hey, I need to fix this one thing.
I need to fix my money mindset and
then I'm going to be fine as if
it will never show up again.
But we all know in therapy that is
just not the case.
It's going to keep coming back over and
over and over again and in different ways
even though you've done so much work on
it.
(19:30):
Yeah.
Absolutely.
So it's fascinating how our relationship with money
I think probably also mirrors a lot of
our other relationships and especially with like boundaries
and how we manage hard things.
Like are we more avoidant or are we
more like, all right, let me sit down
with a nice cozy cup of tea and
just like open my Bank of America account
(19:50):
or whatever, you know?
Yep.
How you do one thing is how you
do everything potentially, you know?
Yes.
You are taking you with you.
No matter where you go, you are still
going to be right there.
Yeah.
I think too, you probably have a really
good perspective on how much people are faking
it.
Like everybody thinks everybody else is doing just
(20:12):
fine.
Yes.
Tell me something about what you've noticed pattern
-wise amongst therapists or other people or whatever
with the faking it.
Well, listen, I am not going to make
this a time where we're going to rail
against social media because I do think that
there are good things and there are bad
things about social, right?
But one con, pro and con, I would
(20:33):
say is double-edged sword.
We have access into somebody showing us the
behind the scenes of their life.
We have access to, this is what my
kitchen looks like.
Even though I might not be highlighting my
kitchen, you're in their kitchen.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
(20:53):
And the amount of judgment that comes with
what somebody finds aesthetic or not aesthetic.
When somebody is just showing you, hey, I
made this really delicious brown sugar syrup for
my coffee.
Here's the recipe.
Turns into, look at those countertops.
And I see that subway tile.
And, oh my God, you have white appliances.
I had no idea that there was a
(21:15):
huge judgment for people with white appliances.
And I was like, oh my goodness.
But I bring this up because I think
when we get the behind the scenes, we
can make up the stories about who these
people are, how they pay for it, what's
going on.
And of course, all those stories are always
very positive.
They're making so much money.
They come from money.
(21:35):
This is, it's never, wow, they must be
swimming in debt.
Oh, wow.
They took out two mortgages to make this
happen.
Oh, this is what's going on.
We're not thinking about it in that way.
We're either passing judgment, assuming they have a
ton of money or make a ton of
money, or that somebody else gave them money.
It's never, wow, what if they have $100
(21:55):
,000 in credit card debt?
What if they're two seconds away from their
house being foreclosed on?
We're not thinking about it in that way.
So for me, the perspective is that we
never have the full picture.
We never have somebody else's full financial picture,
and we will fill in those gaps very
(22:15):
quickly without knowing.
So that's what I try to keep in
line for people to kind of check what's
going on.
You have no clue.
You just have no clue, and that's okay,
but let's not assume that they're in a
great position when you feel like you're not
because you actually might be in a better
position than they are financially.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You might not be up in the middle
of the night worrying about, if your reel
(22:37):
didn't do well enough, and you're not going
to be able to pay off that credit
card bill or whatever.
Yeah.
I love when people are like, here's my
normal kitchen and my untidy living room.
I'm just like, thank you.
Yeah.
Because I mean, I'm very conscious when I'm
filming at my own house.
I'm very conscious of what's behind me and
in a way that is not always real.
(22:59):
I'll admit it.
I'll clean up behind me in a way
that it wasn't like that five seconds ago,
but if I'm going to do a reel
or something, then I want to make sure
it's- It's necessary.
But to your point, I really like when
people kind of like, hey, this is the
beautiful kitchen you're seeing, but this is where
everything went to so that I can film
this beautiful angle of the kitchen.
Exactly.
And it just, we need to sometimes break
(23:21):
that glass to remember, oh, they are humans
too, right?
Nobody is living in these perfectly coiffed outfits.
I have little kids, so thinking about people
in matching dresses and bows and their hairs
looking great, like, my daughter wants nothing to
do with that.
I would do her hair and she would
(23:42):
roll around on the couch, but then I'm
like, wow, look at this mom out here
with her 3.5 kids and her clean
kitchen and everything looks great.
And I do it too, knowing that I
don't have the full perspective.
So it's very easy, friends, to get caught
up in it.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I think about too, my kids have
(24:03):
been going to a really wealthy school, we'll
just say.
I like doing a fancy school.
Yeah, it's very fancy.
They're no longer going to be going there.
This was my youngest last year there and
we're pulling her.
But seeing behind the curtain a little bit
and how many people are just, because how
much you make seems to be very important
(24:25):
to the people there, part of why we're
leaving.
And hearing some of the background, I'm like,
oh, well, I mean, it looks like they're
doing really well.
But in actuality, it's like gossip.
When that's not a community I want to
be a part of, it's people who are
going to gossip about people in a hard
time.
Or like, oh, so-and-so's mother is
(24:47):
nearly a billionaire, so blah, blah, blah.
They're great donors, that kind of thing.
I don't want to be a part of
any of that.
And it's funny because I got to be
a part of that.
I thought that I wanted the great education
for my kids, but when the culture is
not what I want and not in line
with our family values, then it's interesting to
(25:08):
get to a place of having the things
that I was supposed to want.
And being like, I actually don't want this.
Can we downsize?
What's real?
What do I actually want?
And at what cost?
And I think a lot of times, especially
when it comes to school, we love our
(25:28):
kids so much, we want the best for
them, but we don't always see how else
they're getting educated on top of the academic
education.
Because what your kids would be getting isn't
a crash course in wealth dynamics, in class
dynamics, in how you treat other people, and
what is important?
(25:48):
And do you like that or not?
And that's a social education that they're getting.
And to your point, you may be like,
hey, actually, this is not where our values
lie.
This is not that level of importance to
us.
And we don't want to be educating our
kids in that way, even though the academics
may match up with what you're looking for.
(26:09):
Because when kids are going to school, they're
learning so much more.
And I talk about that in my book
too, because it's part of my story.
And there's a lot of me in the
book as well.
But I talk about why wasn't my mom
buying me the $50 jeans from Abercrombie and
Fitch?
And this was a while ago, right?
So elder millennial, why wasn't she buying me
(26:29):
that?
And the cool kids had it.
And I wanted to be a cool kid.
And I thought it would make me feel
so good if I had these pairs of
jeans.
And when you're in middle school, that is
the most important thing to you.
And that's appropriate.
And it should be.
But when you are now surrounded by wealth
that looks different, it makes you feel different.
(26:50):
And the dichotomy for me was that I
actually was a wealthier kid in my school.
I didn't realize it until writing the book
and diving into my own money story.
But I was like, oh, wait.
I just didn't feel wealthy because of a
lot of the racial expectations or assumptions about
who my family was or where we lived,
(27:12):
because my parents chose to live in the
city instead of the suburbs.
Because they're both from New York City.
So they're like, oh, a brownstone.
This is lovely.
We're going to live here.
It's great.
It reminded them of home.
But that weird trying to make sense of
it when you're a child is how we
then impact what we do as adults.
So yes, I want you to know, Allison,
(27:33):
you're making a decision that for you and
for your family is going to impact how
they see money when they are older.
They were able to dip a toe into
it and have the experience, but now it
may shift.
And that's OK, too.
Yeah.
And I think in my mind, I was
like, I want my kids to see what's
possible for them because I didn't necessarily have
the same examples.
(27:54):
And now I'm like, yeah.
And that might not be what they want
ultimately.
I don't want my first grader asking me
why we don't have our own plane, like
so-and-so.
Not ideal.
That is not the norm.
And when you're amongst it all the time,
it feels like it's the norm.
Or they have to grow up and make
enough money so that they do have their
own plane.
(28:14):
You could, but you don't need to.
And I think about that whole keeping up
with the Joneses thing.
I don't think it's ever really intentional for
most people in a way that I used
to think of it as intentional, like, oh,
so-and-so got a Mercedes, so I
should get a Mercedes.
I think it's a lot more insidious when
everyone you're surrounded by is going to Europe
for at least a month in the summer.
(28:34):
Then it just seems like, well, it sucks
for me that I can't do that.
Or we need to make this happen because
this is normal.
And I think that happens at every socioeconomic
level.
100%.
There is a keeping up with the Joneses
that can happen.
Yeah.
And the assumptions that you make about other
people, the amount of articles that I see,
people are like, wow, these people who are
(28:55):
making over six figures are living paycheck to
paycheck.
That's crazy.
What's going on with them?
And as somebody who lives outside of New
York City, I live in Jersey.
Our taxes are notoriously high.
Mortgage rates are insane at this point.
It's really wild out there.
But I'm like, yeah, you make six figures.
(29:16):
But I can say other places, I know
for a fact their taxes are like $2
,000 a year, $5,000 a year.
Mine are like nearly triple or quadruple that.
And that is like, people don't look at
it that way.
Or just cost of child care or anything
like that.
So I think there's so much judgment around
money and assumptions that we make around people
(29:38):
who make what we deem as good money.
When you're not making good money, it's like,
am I behind?
I'm like, no, you might be making great
money for your area.
And that's amazing.
But we need to all touch some grass
and understand what our enough is.
And I want people...
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