Episode Transcript
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(00:08):
(Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) Hi, welcome to the Abundant Practice Podcast.
I'm Allison from Abundance Practice Building.
I have a nearly diagnosable obsession with helping
therapists build sustainable, joy-filled private practices, just
like I've done for tens of thousands of
therapists across the world.
I'm excited to help you too.
If you want to fill your practice with
ideal clients, we have loads of free resources
(00:29):
and paid support.
Go to abundancepracticebuilding.com slash links.
All right, onto the show.
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Hi.
Hi, Cheryl.
How are you?
Good.
Good.
Well, I got your email, which I loved.
I loved how you like, it was like
almost like a journal entry.
Like you kind of worked it out as
you went.
So in lieu of all that, like how
(02:15):
can I help today?
That is a great question.
And I think, you know, when I sent,
when I scheduled the meeting, I was in
sort of a desperate, like, oh, I don't
know how to do any of this or,
you know, just feeling the pressure.
And since then I've gotten more kind of
(02:39):
runway under my feet, I guess.
How can you help me?
I guess I think probably the niche problem
is real.
I especially noticed that when reading your beautiful
email about changing your population.
I was like, those people fit directly into
my, you know, like perfectionists are those, you
(03:03):
know, striving business owners who are struggling in
their personal lives.
And like so many other nichier niches fall
into that category.
So I think if we could help me
narrow down more, that would probably be good.
Even though there is this big part of
me and I know that the resistance is
(03:25):
working against me.
What is there?
Yeah.
And is it the, I don't want to,
you know, leave people out resistance?
Is it that one?
I think like, maybe it's, I don't want
to be bored either in sessions or in
my marketing.
Makes sense.
(03:46):
I don't want you to be either.
Don't worry.
And it might.
Yeah.
I think that's probably the biggest.
Okay.
Yeah.
So then, so we know perfectionists is like
the overarching thing, but if we can add
in some demographics, some personality potentially, like why
(04:08):
are they coming into therapy now?
They've probably been perfectionists for a very long
time.
What's going on in their life.
That's making it necessary to seek care.
Then we can probably narrow it in a
way that is people you love to work
with and not in a boring way.
Yeah.
The first thing that comes to mind is
like moral perfectionists, people who are worried that
they're not doing enough or they're not good
enough at like, like they're not good enough
(04:32):
in the sense of like ethical enough.
They're not right.
Like they're not good enough people, that kind
of a thing.
Yes.
Not kind enough, not generous enough, but at
the same time kind of resentful of their
obligations and that whole thing.
So what makes them come in?
Why now?
Probably the political climate.
(04:54):
Okay.
Yeah.
There's a lot of opportunity to be like
a really good person, whether or not it
makes a huge difference.
I don't know.
I would like to think so, but there's
a lot of opportunity right now to, to
be on the right side of history and
it's, it's an endless amount of opportunity.
Yeah.
And, and that's so suffocating, you know, it's,
(05:15):
it gets, um, it's so much that it
becomes impossible.
It feels like there's no place to start.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then there's the guilt of why am
I watching a show on Netflix when I
should be doing something somebody or do yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
So we've got that.
We've got the political climate we've got and
(05:36):
how would they phrase it?
Like they're not going to say like moral
perfectionism.
Yeah.
How are they going to think about that
first phone call or email?
Yeah.
It does this even more.
Okay.
Okay.
Um, I think like a lot of people
would recognize themselves in this.
I don't know if they would see it
as rising to the level of needing therapy,
but we'll go with it for now.
(05:59):
They feel stuck between wanting to do more
and you know, not, not knowing where to
put that energy, like where, where to, like
where to even get started with anything they've
um, and feel guilty, I guess, like just
like guilty and overwhelmed probably.
And there's probably like clinically, like it's some
(06:22):
underlying anxiety, something.
Yes.
And depression, the, the, the not, you know,
um, defective, there's something wrong with me that
I'm uniquely not good enough and comparing themselves
to, uh, you know, an activist or an
organizer or somebody who's visibly doing enough to
(06:43):
them, like to prove to their, by their
metrics.
Right.
Okay.
And so you'd said something about, there are
a lot of people who feel this way,
but they don't go to therapy for it.
Like it's not to that level, but I
mean, that's every problem that we all see.
So I think it's looking at like, what's
the version where they do come in for
(07:04):
therapy?
What's happened there?
We've got the political climate, but like, there's
something that's leaning on it.
Maybe it's that comparison, but there's something that
like, it's untenable at this point.
Like they can't keep grinning and bearing it.
Question.
Um, maybe these two overlap, but I'm thinking
about, um, people struggling as parents to like
(07:28):
of, and maybe it's like when both fronts
are a struggle, um, then that, you know,
when people's kids get involved, like, um, you
know, I need to resolve this cause this
is really important to me.
I don't know how that, if it connects
(07:49):
to the other thing.
Um, but I do see perfectionism causing a
lot of stress with kids because there's a
point at which you can't really be a
marionette anymore.
Like you can't just like, your kids don't
just do the thing that you want them
(08:09):
to do.
And if you've, if that's been your style
up till they get to that point, then
you kind of are at a loss for
how to like deal with your own anxiety
about them getting into the right school or
doing the activities and the sports and the,
all of that stuff.
Yeah.
(08:29):
And I think that like the, the parent
looking for therapy for that might not have
the insight.
I don't know.
It depends on your ideal client, but they
might not have the insight that this was
always going to happen, right?
That the kid is not always going to
be this extension of you and do what
you want them to do.
There was something you did before that had
them comply, but that's not what human beings
(08:52):
do long-term.
Um, especially as they grow and develop and
need to differentiate.
So they might see it more as like,
I mean, I think we all experienced this
feeling to some extent as parents of like,
they hit some new way of being.
And it's like, I, what I did before
was working and now I don't, like, I'm,
I have no idea what to do.
You know, like I've got a 12 year
(09:12):
old, I'm in this space a lot of
like, where did my sweet, sweet, affectionate girl
go?
What is this eye rolling that's happening?
Even though I know it's developmentally appropriate, it's
where she's supposed to be.
There's still a desire to have her not
be like that, even though it's part of
a process.
(09:33):
Yeah.
I'm doing this stupid therapist thing of like,
I just feel for you.
That's it.
It's really hard.
It is hard.
And it's, and it's like a tale as
old as time at the same time, you
know, like I'm in great company.
Everybody who has got a kid in adolescence
has been through this or they had that
iron grip probably.
(09:53):
So.
So good job.
You're not, you're not, despite my broke liberty,
I did not control her into exactly who
I wanted her to be.
So that's good.
I knew better.
I had to be bootcamped out of that
when my oldest was two.
So I got, yeah, yeah.
This is like, there is really a correlation
(10:15):
between the tween years and the toddler years
I'm finding.
It's interesting.
But just with more language and they're taller.
So I think it's looking at like, what
is it about this parent and how they're
experiencing it?
Yeah.
Cause they don't have, they're most likely not
therapists, you know, so they haven't studied this.
(10:38):
Right.
Hmm.
And that is like the, what I did
before was working and now I have no
idea what to do.
I have a client who is very familiar
from clients I've worked with who had this,
like a lot of strong feelings about like
the types of, even like the types of
media their kids were getting and then being
(11:01):
like, Oh, I was like all the way
over here on, like they should be, you
know, listening to classical music and now, yeah.
So that's, it's helpful to, to have the
like, okay, how are, how are, how is
this actually playing out in there?
So there's probably also some marriage stress with
(11:24):
that, unless both parents are immediately seeing everything
from the same perspective that like, there's this
change and we both immediately agree that this
is our new approach, right?
Right.
And I'm thinking too about there being loss,
like a sense of loss of both, like
(11:44):
when you mentioned the, like this, like snuggly,
affectionate kid, and then suddenly they're rolling their
eyes at you.
Yeah.
But I mean, this even happens when they're
two, right?
It's, it's, it's like, there's this loss of,
Oh, my kid was one way and I
knew how to anticipate that.
And I knew like, they liked avocados and
now all of a sudden they hate avocado,
you know, like there's a loss of like
(12:05):
competence.
Yeah.
When you already feel like you're not good
enough and like, you're not doing a good
enough job.
It can be really hard for folks.
Yeah.
That is a lot to lose all at
the same time.
I think about like, Oh gosh, come on,
getting into my old brain.
Was it Erickson stages of development?
(12:27):
It's been a long time, but just like
maybe thinking through some of those, I think
Piaget had something.
I can't remember.
It's been a real long time since I
took that licensing exam and I just released
it all after that.
But like maybe looking at stages of development
and thinking through like, what's that like for
your parent clients when that, that kid is
(12:48):
achieving what they're supposed to achieve developmentally?
Because I can imagine if you were to
talk about that on your website of like
somewhere around ages 10 to 12, like this
is how this might happen and this is
how you might feel about it.
And they'll be like, Holy shit.
Like, how do you know you just hit
all of them?
How did you know all this?
(13:08):
And this assumption that they might come in
being like, well, you know, child development so
well.
So you're going to tell me how I
can get the reins back.
And instead you're going to be like, and
here's how you keep them out of your
hands.
You keep the corral, but you don't hold
onto the reins.
Yeah.
That's what, yeah, they're going to be looking
(13:28):
for the reins, which makes total sense.
Yeah.
And I was immediately thinking about some bluey
episodes that are your kids.
Are your kids young enough that you've watched
any blue?
I have watched.
So, I mean, my oldest is 12 and
like, we will still curl up and watch
(13:49):
blue with my her and my nine year
old.
We all like it.
It's good.
I was just telling a friend this morning
of one of my hot takes is that
one of the biggest reasons to have kids
is that you get exposed to a lot
of art and culture that you would just
not interact with if you didn't have a
five year old to make you do that.
(14:11):
I feel like parents should like broadcast to
the wider world.
Like these are the top 10.
Like, we know that.
Yeah.
Crap.
And here's the blueys up there.
But, yeah, I was like picturing the one
with the babies, baby race, I think.
Oh, I missed that one.
I think.
(14:32):
Yeah.
It's like all the moms comparing with each
other.
Oh, yeah.
Who's rolling over.
I do remember that.
Yeah.
So, maybe I can pull a clip for
something.
Yeah.
I think that there's also so much more
pressure on parents now than there ever has
(14:52):
been.
And so there's more, there's both more education
that all contradicts each other.
And then there's more opportunity for comparison because
we're not just comparing to our neighbors anymore.
We're comparing to like the wide internet and
all of social media.
And we all know that all that's fake.
(15:14):
You know, that like on the other side
of the iPhone camera is like where all
the toys are shelved just for the shot,
you know.
But at the same time, it can really,
especially people who are vulnerable to feeling not
good enough, it can really, really hurt.
Yeah.
Okay.
So, we've got these two.
(15:34):
I mean, I think the world, I think
your ideal client, I would definitely be talking
about social media used to because if it's
the Venn diagram overlap of these two clients,
like they're freaked out about the world, they
want to have more control over, you know,
what they brought this child into.
They want to raise their kid to be
(15:56):
a good activist and a good citizen.
They want to model all this.
It's a lot of pressure at the gate,
not even counting what might be going on
in other parts of their lives.
It can be that Venn diagram overlap.
You can touch on different pieces within the
scope of the other.
And you said like people have found you
(16:17):
from perfectionism in your emails.
If that has worked for you, lean on
it, like use that word.
I think we have, this is kind of
a harsh way of framing perfectionism, but I
think of it as like successful perfectionists and
failed perfectionists.
You know, like the successful perfectionists are often
like, yeah, I'm a perfectionist.
I can't do a B plus job.
(16:39):
It has to be an A plus and
they can own it.
And then the failed perfectionists are like, I
can't claim I'm just not good enough to
be a perfectionist, even though I try.
So, yeah, I think of those as the,
um, oh, how did I, there's, um, well
it's like the depressed, oh, can't stop and
can't start.
I love that.
(17:01):
Yeah.
Do you have a preference for the presentation?
Do you prefer a can't stop or can't
start?
I like the, the, the two nice ones.
Um, and those can be either one.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And you can, so you can talk about
them.
I do like a challenge too.
Yeah.
Oh, sorry.
Well, you can, I mean, you can talk
about the can't stop, can't start within the
(17:22):
context of that overly nice person.
And I mean, you know, not to be
like a tick tock therapist, but like often
underlying this is trauma.
Right.
I mean, if you want to talk, like
the more I've thought about perfectionism, it is
like a, like the problem with it, isn't
the standards, it's the punishment that we use
to meet the standards.
(17:43):
And it is, has been like a functional
response to, um, the American dream to like
class, um, striving and trying to get away
from uncertainty and instability and childhood and, uh,
sorry that yes, but that yes, I agree.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Our book club just read the book, the
(18:04):
tell the new memoir by Amy, Amy, something
Wilson, maybe it's really, really good.
And it's like, it's a memoir and it's
her story of going from being like a
high, high I think she would have been
one of your, one of your people and
realizing she had repressed a memory and, um,
working through the trauma.
(18:24):
She talked about it in such a, such
a way that like, I mean, therapists, we
all know what it looks like for somebody
to work through a trauma, like how hard
that is.
But I think somebody who hasn't experienced or
somebody who has experienced trauma, hasn't worked through
it, like you, the lay person might not
know.
And I think she described it so beautifully,
like in such a clear way and a
painful way, but clear anyway, and aside, it's
a good book.
(18:45):
Um, would probably feel like work, but.
I might not surprise you to know that
I, um, my, I like working for fun.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I imagine your bedside table has some workbooks.
Yeah.
Most of them unread.
So, I mean, it also is like, does
(19:06):
your ideal client identify anything that they've been
through as trauma at this stage before they've
come in to see you?
Um, if they do, you can gently mention
it.
If they don't, then I wouldn't, I wouldn't
necessarily.
Okay.
That's helpful.
And it's also been helpful for me to
(19:28):
think about like marketing and phases and like
the things that I talk about in this
year of marketing might be different than the
things that I'm talking about a year from
now or two years from now.
Yeah.
And that there might be in that, that
part of me that's worried about feeling bored
or limited that I can be like, okay,
that's year two materials.
(19:49):
You can still talk about that, but give
it, give it some time and space.
So I'm taking what you're saying and like
thinking people are much more aware of the
thing that's bothering them right now.
Yeah.
And focusing on that, um, for the most
part is it, it did fascinate.
(20:11):
So like I was telling some neighbors about
what I do and like when you say,
when I say I'm a therapist for freshness
and we're like, that needs therapy sometimes.
But when I talked about this, that leather,
like, uh, American dream, which was like, Oh.
(20:32):
Well, and I wonder too, like the quick
version of what you do, like maybe you
just throw over-functioning perfectionists or overly generous
perfectionists, or like, it might just be, you
add a word to clarify for the short
version that helps people understand like, oh, well,
yeah, if you're overly this or overly that,
then certainly you need some therapy to get
(20:54):
that would be.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Cause perfectionism it's like our wider concept of
perfectionism itself doesn't necessarily contain the impossible standards
or the punishment that we use to try
to reach them.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Yeah.
Of course.
Is that feeling clearer?
(21:16):
Next wise.
Do you feel like there's, I mean, I
know you're probably need to sit with it
for a while, but yeah, there, there are
a couple of really helpful things in here.
One is, um, I can just narrow down
by adding a few and that verb or
an adjective or, um, and that does something
also to communicate to people like there's the
(21:38):
over ness of that, that, that, um, lets
you know that there's a problem there.
And it's like a shortcut to helping people
like recognize themselves in it.
Whereas perfectionism might be so broad, but if
you're like, oh, general, yeah, I, too generous.
I struggle with that.
(21:58):
And that's also very, like I see the
like woman who does too much kind of
thing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Cause I think women are starting to realize
like, Oh, about half of what I do
is too much.
I could have done 50% of what
I've been doing and would have been like
doing normal, like doing fine.
Yeah.
(22:19):
Yeah.
So that and bringing it, like I have
been kind of trying to focus on where
people are before they see anything that I've
made and, um, you know, sort of successful
with that.
Cause you know, you think about like X,
(22:40):
Y, and Z client and this, like, this
is what they said in the consultation call
or this is what I'm like, let me
really bring this person to mind.
But, um, having that focus on present tense,
how are they describing it?
Because I almost immediately I'm translating it into,
okay, well this is like, okay, here I'm
defective.
We're going to get into that.
(23:01):
Um, so it takes, it's, it's good to
break out of that, um, like instant translation
and go back to no, no, no.
What, what did they say?
What are they saying before they even get
to my website?
Cause they might even start using some of
my language just from my website.
(23:21):
So it's helpful to try to like just
picture the living room, um, where the preteen
is upset about something and, uh, yeah.
And the parents are feeling stuck and overwhelmed.
Yeah.
I think about the challenge of the overwhelmed
(23:42):
perfectionist because like, you're not allowed to be
overwhelmed if you're a perfectionist.
Oh my goodness.
The like negative emotions that you're like are
not one of the, so I like my
clients fill out mood surveys and I see,
I know we have to go with it.
So like the most common presentation is very
(24:03):
little in the way of anxiety or depression
and very little in the way of happiness.
So it's like, well, I can't tell you,
obviously I'm not depressed because that would be
a bad thing to be in a bad
person would be depressed, but I'm also very
unhappy.
Yeah.
So the overwhelmed perfectionist is a trap.
You're right.
(24:23):
Because they're not allowed to be overwhelmed.
And I cut you off.
Continue.
No, no.
I think, I mean, that's just an interesting
thing to consider is like, can they cop
to feeling overwhelmed?
Because it's not depressed or anxious that there's
actually, it's kind of like the word perfectionist.
It's like, I've just taken on so much.
I'm just, you know, it's like, it's almost
like a positive negative, you know?
(24:43):
So if they can, if they can admit
that they're feeling overwhelmed, then that in their
perfectionists, then that might be a good way
to, a good in for them essentially.
But if they're also in like, no, no,
no, I can spin another plate.
It's fine.
I'm just, I don't want to let you
down and I need to spin it really
well, you know?
(25:04):
So.
There's that too.
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
That's good to think about.
Thank you.
Yeah, absolutely.
Keep hacking away at it.
Throw it in the Facebook community and get
some support if you need it.
I will.
Awesome.
Yeah.
This is great.
Thank you so much, Allison.
Of course.
Good to see you.
Good to see you.
Not in person, but in person.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(25:24):
Live.
Live.
All right.
I'll see you later.
Take care.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
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