August 19, 2025 • 40 mins
Kristin Riviello, Account Relationship Manager, CobbleStone, and Michael Donnelly, Sales Enablement Specialist, CobbleStone, discuss health care contract management and best practices for dealing with the challenges that occur in this area. They cover the health care contract lifecycle, negotiation strategies, and the role of artificial intelligence. Sponsored by CobbleStone.
Watch this episode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSfLi8OxYzA
Learn more about CobbleStone: https://www.cobblestonesoftware.com/
Essential Legal Updates, Now in Audio
AHLA's popular Health Law Daily email newsletter is now a daily podcast, exclusively for AHLA Premium members. Get all your health law news from the major media outlets on this podcast! To subscribe and add this private podcast feed to your podcast app, go to americanhealthlaw.org/dailypodcast.
Stay At the Forefront of Health Legal Education
Learn more about AHLA and the educational resources available to the health law community at https://www.americanhealthlaw.org/.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Hello, everybody.
SPEAKER_02 (00:18):
Thank you so much for joining our podcast today.
My name is Kristin Riviello.
I am the Account RelationshipManager at Cobblestone Software.
SPEAKER_01 (00:28):
And hello, everyone.
Thanks again for joining.
My name is Mike Donnelly.
I am a part of the salesmanagement team here at
Cobblestone.
And to give you a quick littlebackground about Cobblestone in
general, we are a contractmanagement software provider as
well as e-procurement.
And that's going to be relatedto a lot of the things that
we're going to be talking abouttoday regarding just general
challenges in the healthcareworld when it comes to contract
(00:50):
management.
And if you're not too familiarwith software as either of
ourselves or elsewhere, we'reHopefully, this podcast today is
going to give you some insighton exactly what's out on the
market.
SPEAKER_02 (01:01):
All right.
So we thought to kick it offtoday before we jump into our
podcast topic, which is reallyjust going to be a general
discussion around contractmanagement in the healthcare
space.
We thought it might be a littlefun to kind of break the ice a
bit.
So since we are in the heat ofsummer at the moment, we thought
(01:23):
it might be nice to just kind ofkick it off by talking about a
favorite summer memory.
So I guess, Mike, I'll throw itto you first.
Do you have a favorite summermemory?
SPEAKER_01 (01:33):
Favorite summer memory.
I mean, I would say, you know,as a kid and now in my
adulthood, I do often go downthe shore.
I go to the beach every other orevery summer.
I used to go every summer.
Now it's like sporadic otherthan like little day trips.
As far as a specific memory, Idon't think I have too much of a
(01:54):
specific one.
I just, I guess I can call backto my childhood when I had my
summers off.
So I That's about it.
I'll be honest.
That in itself is a memory.
I haven't had one of those inabout a decade, a little bit
more than a decade.
I think that was my fondestmemory is just the free time.
(02:15):
I
SPEAKER_02 (02:15):
think that's what every kid, like why every kid
loves summer.
That summer off is just so nice.
It's like no school, it's thebest.
For me, as somebody thatactually lives at the shore or
at the beach, for anyone that'snot from New Jersey, yeah, I
(02:36):
don't tend to go to the beach alot in the summer.
And Mike will probably likelaugh a bit at my summer memory
because my summer memory, myfavorite summer memory actually
happened happened last summerbecause I'm a big music fan.
And I went to see one of myfavorite artists, Bruce
Springsteen, and I got to befront row at the show.
It was General Mission.
(02:57):
I put in my time.
They sang with him.
So that was just like, it'llnever get better than that for a
summer memory.
So that's it for me.
I
SPEAKER_01 (03:06):
mean, that's up there.
I don't know if it was anycolder than the beach now.
I'm sure it was a little warmthere, but...
Hey, that sounds like a lot offun.
SPEAKER_02 (03:16):
It certainly was.
It was a good time.
But yeah, so that was just ourlittle icebreaker that we
thought might be good to kind ofkick things off at the top here
before we got into the nittygritty of today's discussion.
So like I said, Mike and I aregoing to talk about just kind of
overall, you know, contractlifecycle management in
(03:37):
healthcare.
And I think we would be remissif we didn't kind of kick it off
by talking about just theoverall contract lifecycle as it
relates to healthcare andhealthcare contracts in general.
So I guess I'll kind of start itoff by I think so many things
(03:58):
kick off by that initial requestcoming in, you know, and
sometimes it might not berequests for contracts, but it
can be requests for amendmentsor requests for renewals or, you
know, even unrelated tocontracts overall, but it can
all kind of filter in throughthat initial request.
So I think that stage kind ofsets the tone overall for the
(04:19):
whole contract lifecycle ingeneral is having that, you
know, a good foundation to whatyour initial request is and what
your needs are going to be.
to be.
And then the always fun kind of,you know, authoring and
generating the contracts just ingeneral.
I know a lot of times, and we'lltalk about this a little bit
(04:39):
more in depth as we go, but Ithink it's really important to
have templates that are, youknow, use templates as your best
friend.
No one should be authoring, youknow, a hundred page healthcare
document on their own.
SPEAKER_01 (04:56):
And to talk a little bit further about that, I mean,
what we've seen definitely isjust, I mean, we speak with a
lot of other people, and I'msure the people listening to
this is going to be falling intothe same category, but no one
organization is the same.
I mean, this person's intakeform is an email.
This person's intake form is anExcel spreadsheet.
And, you know, as far as successand just kind of tackling the
(05:16):
life cycle, I do think, I mean,if you agree, Chris, and I feel
like uniformity is reallyimportant, you know, just
keeping everything standard.
Same with the authoring side ofthings.
It's just...
You don't want to be put in aposition where just one
department is doing this,another department is doing
that.
Just too many variables, Iguess.
SPEAKER_02 (05:36):
Yeah, I think most people listening that do this
day to day will probably agreethat the more things can be
streamlined and uniform, it'slike this is the process.
It always goes through thisprocess.
It's tried and true for us.
I think it's always going tobenefit and make for a more
successful lifecycle management,no matter what industry,
(05:59):
obviously specific to healthcaretoday.
I
SPEAKER_01 (06:02):
mean, even for us, it's...
constant change of process andwe can feel the challenge there.
SPEAKER_02 (06:09):
Yeah, we understand the struggle can be real
sometimes.
And speaking of that, I thinkmaybe the area in the contract
life cycle, at least in theearly stages, that can be the
most tedious and sometimestiresome and sometimes
(06:29):
frustrating, I would say thatnegotiation phase, because
that's where you're not onlydealing with internal and like
what your own internal, youknow, policies are, and hey, we
can accept these provisions, wecan accept these provisions.
But you're also dealing withthird party a lot of the time.
So that volleying back and forthcan be a very delicate balance.
(06:55):
And, you know, if it really kindof is initiating the whole
relationship, right?
Like if you have a really poor,a really laborsome negotiations
with a partner, sometimes youget to the end of that finish
line and you're just like, okay,well, what we got here and
getting here feels like the winand not necessarily what was
(07:16):
contracted.
Do you agree?
SPEAKER_01 (07:18):
Yeah.
Sometimes I feel like that.
Sometimes it's just, it's like,oh, finally it's done.
It's just like, sometimes it isliterally the beginning.
So yeah.
It's an uphill battle.
It's
SPEAKER_02 (07:30):
so true.
I feel like sometimes, like Isaid, it's the start of things.
And then even, you know, oncewe've negotiated, we've been
redlining, like, again, gettingeveryone to agree and getting
those approvals kind of, like,set in stone.
Sometimes that can take a longtime, especially if you have,
(07:50):
like, very...
for, just very nuanced processesoverall.
Maybe you need a lot of levels.
Maybe things need to go to aboard to approve things.
It's not just as simple as, hey,everybody agreed on the language
in here.
Now it's, hey, we need to getbuy-in from a larger group of
(08:11):
stakeholders.
And that's all before thecontract even gets signed.
So that's kind of like thestart, I think, think of the
life cycle, but Mike, what doyou think?
Like once you get thoseapprovals, what other steps are
in the overall life cycle?
SPEAKER_01 (08:27):
Well, I mean, I guess the end goal of approvals
is of course signature.
And even that in itself can be achallenge, kind of similar to
approvals.
It's just constant.
Who's got it right now?
Where's it at?
I don't know the status.
I got to talk to this person whoneeds to talk to that person.
It's just kind of, it can bekind of a little bit of a
cluster and, you know, butobviously signatures are is the
(08:47):
end all be all, at least for thefirst stage, for the birth of a
contract, if you will.
But yeah, I mean, evensignatures is a challenge
because you're still having tochase down the same people.
So anything that help kind ofguide visibility on that and
again, automation standard.
I mean, as we can, I mean, we'relistening to a podcast.
(09:07):
We're kind of in the...
I mean, it's a little, it'sprobably like 25, two years late
to be saying, Oh, we're in thenew age, but it just, I, we, you
know, you hear people that arestill getting their pen out,
printing it out a document.
And it's just like, I can't evenimagine what life was like 30
years ago, let alone, you know,15 years ago with this kind of
thing.
So, you know, people gettingsignatures now, I mean, they're
(09:29):
really, they, I'm just saying,if you're not using something
like an e-signature tool, thereis something to improve on.
And again, like even then it'sjust not even the signature
anymore.
And, you know, you move on onceit's signed.
That's just the beginning ofthings.
Now we got deliverables.
Now we got obligations.
And these things results are, Imean, it's just constant
tracking this, that, and theother thing.
(09:50):
I mean, I'm sure Kristen, youcan probably agree that it's
just, it's, it almost like, youknow, you strive for this
standardness.
You strive for the uniformuniformity.
And even then it's just like,once this thing's signed, it's
still like a mixed bag.
What's going to happen rightafterwards, how it's going to be
happening, how well it's goingto be happening.
UNKNOWN (10:08):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (10:09):
Yeah, it's
SPEAKER_02 (10:11):
true.
And like, I feel like even iflike, I feel like the perfect
world is the uniformity, right?
Everyone wishes that everycontract could be exactly the
same.
You know, the obligations areexactly the same, you know,
payment terms, like all thisstuff is the same, but we all
know that's not the reality.
So I think tracking thoseobligations is, I mean, that's
(10:35):
keeping your contract incompliance, right?
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (10:54):
has hundreds and hundreds or thousands and
thousands of contracts.
As Kristen just mentioned, thisis all stemming from the
approval, from the negotiation.
One small change can mean aworld of a difference for a
contract.
Kristen and I see it every day.
It's just, oh, all of a sudden,we need to learn this whole new
process.
We need to take care of thiswhole new thing.
Having something that reallyjust helps out with just making
(11:15):
sense of all of that is reallythe...
the solution.
It's just keeping everything inthe same spot, making everything
easy to understand, easy toaccess.
Accessibility is always nice ina world where we're going
digital.
So I mean, making sure thatwe're delivering things on time.
If we're not getting thingsdelivered to us on time, we want
(11:36):
to make sure that we're gettingcompensated for that kind of
thing.
But again, it's just from onenet 30, one net 45, that small
difference could mean a breachof a contract.
So it's kind of, it's tough.
Yeah.
but even, you know, complyingwith renewals.
I mean, even in my, I mean, I'msure you can imagine like in my
personal life, right?
(11:56):
Like I have subscriptions tostreaming services for music,
for internet.
And I don't use these thingsevery day.
I don't renew.
I renew when I don't even knowabout it until I'm$150 in the
hole.
Right.
Could you imagine just, I mean,again, I'm not, I'm just a
person, but I mean, I'm not alawyer by any means, but.
(12:18):
I mean, basically we can calllike an organization, a company,
a person with 80,000 Netflixsubscriptions.
How easy is that to forget?
Like, so getting the heads up onthat.
SPEAKER_02 (12:30):
In my house right now, there's three Netflix
subscriptions.
Like having something that'sjust like, sometimes it's like
in my day to day life, I'm like,I need something that tells me,
hey, this is coming up forrenewal this month.
Oh, like you said, like your$150Spotify or streaming service.
(12:51):
It's like, I forgot about that.
I forgot that it was this day.
And that's like you said, that'sjust like in a personal life.
So I would say probably a lotlower stakes, right?
Like a streaming service islower stakes than like, hey, we
need to manage this.
this multi-million dollarcontract.
(13:14):
But yeah, renewals, it's big.
It's important to be able tomanage those items.
SPEAKER_01 (13:21):
Yeah.
And I'm sure, I hope nobodylistening to this has ever been
hit with the auto renewal of amillion dollars where you could
not afford that.
I'm sure that was a really funday to learn that.
So being on top of that is alsoreally important in general.
UNKNOWN (13:38):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (13:40):
It's very true.
And you know what's funny?
So like we talk about the lifecycle, right?
I kind of want to circle back,if you'll indulge me, to the
negotiation phase.
Because like I mentioned, likewhen it comes to negotiating,
that is such a...
(14:02):
it's such a minefield, right?
Like you're just trying to likemake sure you're trying to
balance everything.
And we talked about uniformity,right?
Talked about, you know, thingslike templates and all that
stuff.
What sort of stuff do you thinkis really beneficial for
organizations to make sure thatthey're focusing on to make that
(14:23):
negotiation phase go asseamlessly as it possibly can?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (14:28):
Right.
I mean, I'm going to just callback to standardization.
I think that is the name of thegame, especially when it comes
to internal agreements.
It's just that's the only way tomake sense of everything.
If everything is kind ofsimilar, at least to a degree,
maybe not until red lines occurand negotiations occur.
But having a common startingblock is really the way to go.
And I mean, there are tools outthere that allow you to keep
(14:51):
everything out there, keepeverything in there, really, I
should say, and keep that thatstandardization going.
And I mean, really, it's just ifyou don't have that, no one's
going to make sense of anything.
I mean, even again, I don't wantto keep bringing in my personal
life, but like I'm sure you toyou to Chris and you have
certain regimens where youfollow.
(15:12):
Right.
And it's just how I wake up andI make my coffee.
Right.
It's just that's just mystandard.
Right.
And I mean, I think we couldtreat contracts like that as
well.
It's just sticking to theregimen.
That's what works.
I go to the gym after work.
I do this, that, and the otherthing.
And that's just how it works.
That's the way I stay sane.
You know what I mean?
Just keeping it on this regimen.
(15:32):
I don't know if you feel thesame way, but that's how I
operate.
SPEAKER_02 (15:35):
No, it's true.
And especially like the world welive in right now, there's so
much coming at you all the time,right?
It's like you're just There'salways, I feel like, an
oversaturation.
So if you have those, it's like,hey, this is tried and true.
This always works.
But I also think, like, I dowant to kind of call out
(15:55):
because, I mean, Mike, you and Iknow we work with tons of
clients that will say to us,like, I'm going to level with
you here.
Our process ain't working.
Like, we need to talk about,like, how we can make the
process better.
Right.
what are like the best practicesthat you can tell us from like
what you've seen, right?
(16:16):
So I think it's important tojust kind of mention on this
podcast that obviously theuniformity and the, you know,
the regimen that you follow whenit comes to contract management
and like your procedures andprocesses, that's the ideal and
it's great.
But also not, you know, you'renot alone if you're listening to
(16:38):
this podcast and you think,we've never had a uniform
contract negotiation in theentire time that I've been with
this organization, right?
Like it's, I think it's, but Ithink at that point too, it's
good to at least identify wherethe pitfalls are.
So you can kind of point to itand say, okay, maybe if we did
(17:00):
this moving forward, like let'smaybe just incorporate this, one
new thing that might benefit theprocess overall and taking those
small wins i think is is alsoimportant what are your thoughts
SPEAKER_01 (17:13):
on that for some reason i'm thinking about like
food how to make an analogy withfood like i go to a like a chain
restaurant right there's a itemon the menu that i love the most
right that's my template rightand then one day i don't feel
like uh you know maybe you go tothe order the same thing and you
swap out ketchup for mustardRight.
I mean, just having that swap inand out option is always good.
(17:34):
And, you know, no one likes arestaurant where they say, oh,
sorry, you can't dosubstitutions.
We kind of got to treat that thesame way with our contracts.
As silly as that sounds, it'sjust not not all of our
provisions are going to beperfect.
We have to understand exactlywhat I'm going to keep using the
food analogy.
Allergies are what preferencesare.
And we could just consider thatas an organization.
(17:54):
Right.
They don't like this certainprovision.
And we have to accommodate if wewant something.
As a business owner or whoever,if we want to deliver this
product, if we want to benefitfrom this product, we sometimes
have to take sacrifices here andthere.
That doesn't mean just...
Just during redlining, that'severything.
I mean, hey, I'm working with acompany in another country.
(18:15):
I have to make sure that Iaccommodate for this country in
XYZ provision.
I have to just make sure thatthe amount of time that I'll be
spending with this company isthe right amount of time.
I can't over-promise orunder-deliver or anything like
that.
I have to make sure that thetemplate I'm given, the template
I'm potentially tweaking alittle bit, fits the bill.
(18:36):
Really, I mean, I don't know.
I feel like that's just crucialto a negotiation is just making
sure that your starting point'snice, but once they actually
unveil what you got going forthem, it also makes sense to
them and to you.
You're just setting an exampleof a good business relationship.
I mean, I'm sure with theclients that you've worked with,
(18:59):
Kristen, you have a differentapproach for every single client
that you speak with, right?
SPEAKER_02 (19:04):
Yeah.
They're like snowflakes.
No two clients are the same.
SPEAKER_01 (19:08):
And no two contracts are the same too.
SPEAKER_02 (19:12):
Very true.
SPEAKER_01 (19:14):
Yeah.
So, I mean, eventually you haveto come to the– you're at a
crossroads.
I have to– you have to–something's got to give
basically.
We have to combine the two.
All right.
What does this person want?
What does this organizationwant?
What do we want?
What's our standard?
And that's really what anegotiation is.
It's kind of that mutual–understanding of everything.
(19:34):
And I mean, it's a criticalstep, you know, making sure that
everything melds togethercorrectly.
No, nothing's over likebulldozing a certain clause, for
example.
And, and honestly, speaking ofclauses, I mean, even that
itself, I mean, I think theseare the ingredients essentially
that I'm talking about.
And the clauses are just, theycan be a Mitch, a mishmash.
They could, this clause for meis great for me, but it's
(19:56):
horrible for this organization.
I not only just being a match,being appropriate.
It's just, again, that wholeexample of I'm working with a
company out of the country.
I have to make sure I have theright provisions in place for
that.
And I mean, there are tools outthere, especially in healthcare.
I mean, I see this all the timein healthcare when it comes to
(20:19):
certain clauses need to bebrought in based on the provider
I'm working with.
I need to bring in some addendabased on the provider, like what
state that they're eligible towork in and all of that.
And I've seen it.
It's just...
It's outrageous how much time isbeing spent just picking the
template's brain and just, oh,it's like a la carte.
I'm picking this, I'm pickingthat.
(20:40):
I mean, I don't know.
It's just sometimes it amazes mehow time-consuming things can be
and just being able to have atool that does a lot of the
heavy lifting for you issuper-duper important.
I mean, that's just allautomatic, really.
SPEAKER_02 (20:58):
It's true, and like– I want to shout out, it's crazy
if we don't have this, right?
Clause libraries.
Something where this is whereall of my clauses live.
This is where all of my legalteam who are the ones that are
(21:22):
working away on these contracts,these are the things that
they've said, hey, These areterms that we've gone through,
we've vetted, we think aremaybe, you know, obviously in
our best interest, but alsobenefit the third parties we're
going to be working with.
It's so important to have arepository of those things
because, like you said, ifyou're going through and you are
(21:44):
piecemealing everything one byone and you're changing stuff up
every contract, that is just notthe best use of time.
And I think, I mean, Mike, Iknow you will– I probably agree
with this.
Probably people listening willagree with this.
There's not enough time in theday to just not have things made
(22:07):
easier for us where maybe weautomatically include certain
clauses and things.
Anytime you can kind of cut acorner in a good way, not in a
bad way.
Anytime you can cut a corner andsay, hey, this is going to make
my life a bit easier and give mesome more time in my day.
is such a win for anyone that'smanaging contracts,
SPEAKER_01 (22:27):
I think.
Yeah, and I mean, I hope no onelistening can relate to what I'm
about to say, but I mean, we'vespoken with companies who, you
know, one department has theirown clause library and the other
department has another one, andclearly they didn't communicate.
So there's just no connection.
And then all of a sudden, youneed to go to internal approval,
right?
Oh, this department is twomonths behind.
(22:49):
Yeah.
This isn't the most up-to-dateclause, and we don't want to be
in that embarrassing situationwhere we're prepping together
for internal approvals beforeanything that gets negotiated,
and all of a sudden it's just wekind of are calling our pants
down.
I'll be honest.
It's just, oh, I guess I missedthat email, and we don't want to
be that person.
(23:10):
But I guess I've only run intothat a few times.
I don't know.
What about how you feel aboutthat, Kristen, if you've run
into that?
SPEAKER_02 (23:18):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's always interesting becauseI found that sometimes it's
almost like the clauses in thedifferent departments almost
contradict each other.
So it's like it's just very it'svery interesting.
How did this happen?
Sometimes it's like, OK.
Yeah.
It's like, I feel like we couldbe working together because
(23:40):
we're all working for the sameorganization and really be
helping one another and not likeworking against one another so
much.
But I think too, like going backto what you were saying too,
with like that internalapproval, maybe you do have that
department that's like twomonths behind.
I think that's another thing.
Like when you're moving intonegotiation, I think that's
(24:00):
where transparency and likevisibility plays such a key role
because like, you might beworking with an organization and
they're like, no, we needsomething yesterday.
Like whatever service we'resigning a contract for, we
needed that yesterday.
So you kind of need to kind ofgauge what's the timeline.
(24:21):
What does our internal likebandwidth and workload look
like?
And how are we going to makesure that, again, this is
successful?
We kind of need to make surethat everyone's on the same
page, which again,cross-departmentally.
I mean, you know this.
Sometimes it's really hard, butit's like we need to make it
work.
SPEAKER_01 (24:41):
I mean, we can relate sometimes too, but I
don't think it's ever going tobe perfect in any organization,
but we can only try, right?
I don't want to keep going backto standardization, but it's
just so common, a challenge thatwe see in our day-to-day where
this person has no idea whatthis other team member or this
other department is up to ever.
(25:04):
And that just all stems down toit's not standardized.
It is decentralized.
And tools out there offer that.
It's just a one-stop shop.
And I love a one-stop shop.
Everyone likes a conveniencestore, right?
I mean, that's the whole pointis I don't got to go anywhere
else.
I'm going to one store.
And I mean, just having that isjust super strong, really.
It's just an asset to anorganization just to not just
(25:28):
make yourself not fall in hotwater at any point during the
negotiation.
SPEAKER_02 (25:32):
I feel like that's the ideal is like, okay, if
everything can be in that, underthat one umbrella and that way
we can be as prepared aspossible.
If we need certain things, weknow where to go for it.
If we need to reference back toprevious terms, conditions,
provisions, obligations thatwe've accepted, it's there for
(25:52):
us.
It's easy to identify.
It's easy to see.
SPEAKER_01 (25:54):
And something else that's really important in tools
like, like you know, CLM toolsin general is, you know, I know
that people are probablythinking who's listening.
It's like, Oh, everything can'tbe under one umbrella.
I mean, this person, thisperson's day to day is so much
different than that person's dayto day.
And I mean, there are tools outthere that allow you to really
almost compartmentalize thesetypes of ideas where one per I
(26:16):
can be sitting right next toKristen, right?
She has no idea what I'm doingor in my day to day.
I like, we have differentprocesses, different jobs.
There are systems out there thatyou can log into the same spot.
I, you know, her and I couldrace into the system.
We log in at the same time.
Right.
And it looks completelydifferent.
My side's all catered to me.
Her side's all catered to her.
(26:37):
So that achieves thatstandardization, but also
doesn't overwhelm an end user.
Cause we all know growing painsis huge.
And talking about CLM tools isthe definition of growing pains.
I feel sometimes.
So I think that's prettyimportant to mention too.
SPEAKER_02 (26:51):
Yeah, I agree.
And even like kind of buildingoff of that a bit.
I know we're not going to divetoo deep into this particular
topic that I'm about to bringup, but I want to mention it
because when we talk about that,you know, having people cross,
you know, departments utilizingone software.
I think when we talk aboutthings like integration.
(27:12):
with other softwares.
I also think that's huge too.
Like, Hey, maybe we, there's onedepartment where they are never
going to abandon this one toolthat they always use.
So, okay.
How do we then work with that?
Can it integrate with our systemthat we're working on day to
(27:35):
day?
Again, Mike and I are in the CLMspace.
So we see integrations coming upas a, requirement so much more
often i mean i don't know aboutyou mike but i feel like even
since i kind of started in thisworld like six years ago like as
a daily conversation now thatwe're having with clients do you
feel the same
SPEAKER_01 (27:56):
i think it's growing i think it's more and more
common i feel like people areagain afraid to change i mean i
think that's very normal just ingeneral like in personal and
professionalized afraid ofchanges and they are kind of
apprehensive to move forwardwith something that would solve
their problems just because theythink somebody else who, like
you said, Kristen, probably noteven going to be touching this
(28:16):
thing.
It's going to have a conniptionabout it.
So being able to kind of makesure that you approach it with,
if you approach things withintegration in mind, it's like
for the other person that wemight be thinking is going to
get a little, have a little bitof an uproar.
If we make this monumentalchange with our, with our
processes, I think that, youknow, that gives them a little
bit more peace of mind.
(28:37):
You know, you could just stickwith your process.
It's working for you.
It's working great, but I needsomeone to help me out.
And if we can have a little tiein and, you know, that way you
can keep your peace of mind andI can revamp my processes, I
think it's a win-win.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (28:51):
And I think like it kind of goes back to what we've
been talking about throughouttoday to like almost putting a
bow on it where like we talkabout like being prepared.
We talk about standardization.
We talked about with your foodanalogy, almost like knowing
what ingredients need to go in.
Right.
Like all that stuff is soimportant.
Like before you even dive intothese, you know, negotiations
(29:14):
are ready.
Like, hey, talking about thatrequest where we kind of started
off like.
what stuff needs to be involvedin this, like what we're
requesting.
If we're out there looking forsoftware, what are the
requirements?
Like having that kind ofbattened down is gonna be so
helpful no matter, again, likewhat organization, we talked
(29:35):
about every organization beingdifferent.
I think that's probably auniversal truth.
The more prepared you are andknow exactly what you need and
kind of carve those items outprior to going into, you know,
initiating this whole contractlife cycle that we're talking
about, I think just benefits theorganization overall and you'll
have a much more successfulrelationship with that vendor,
(29:58):
that software, those services,like whatever it is that you're
kind of contracting services
SPEAKER_01 (30:03):
for.
Right.
And I mean, it's funny justbecause I know that my side, I
feel like we all can agree.
We all have experience with anightmare negotiation and it's
almost to the, it can be thepoint where it's just like, all
right we get it signed it's likegeez do I even want to work with
these people anymore like whatis going on but I mean in
general like being prepared likeyou're saying it's just like be
(30:25):
prepared for everything I meanpeople aren't just doing it to
be annoying people aren't doingit to be to be obnoxious and get
under your skin I mean at theend of the day the goal is a
partnership right it's just andyou got to be prepared for
anything that goes your waywhether it's about the specific
product you're having in mind,about the certain warranties or
(30:45):
what have you, or just thepayment terms.
You got to be prepared forreally anything and keep an open
mind, really.
I don't know if you feel thesame way, but I've been there.
SPEAKER_02 (30:56):
Yeah.
I feel like if you go into anegotiation with a closed mind
or preconceived ideas, again, Ifeel like it just is setting you
up for failure.
Yeah.
And it's funny too, because Iknow we're kind of, you know,
we're kind of winding downtowards the end of our
discussion here, but I want topivot a little bit talking about
(31:22):
being prepared for anything,right?
Let's talk a little bit aboutAI.
I feel like we have to, right?
Like we talk about it all day,every day.
Talking about being prepared.
I don't know about you.
Sometimes, when talking aboutAI, I feel like there's no way I
(31:43):
can be prepared for how fastthat sphere is moving.
There's always stuff coming outday to day.
What are your thoughts on that?
How to keep up with AI, how toutilize it, best practices, tips
and tricks.
Is it going to replace me?
(32:04):
What's going on?
I
SPEAKER_01 (32:05):
hope it doesn't replace us, but I think that's a
valid...
That's a valid piece ofintimidation, I guess, if I'm
just being honest.
But I mean, like you said, Imean, it is rapidly expanding.
I mean, even just I'm sure youand many people who are
listening have seen an AIgenerated photo.
(32:26):
And I mean, just a year ago,right, it looked like an
abstract painting.
Now it's like photorealistic.
And that's only going to happenfurther with everything.
But Replacing, I don't knowabout replacing.
And I think it's safe to saythat when it comes to my, in the
CLM space especially, I thinkit'd be very foolish for a
(32:47):
business owner or decision makerto just take whatever AI says as
the word of law.
And of course, I don't care howmany language modelers are going
through this AI.
They did not pass the bar.
It is a chat bot on a screen.
It's like smarter child back inthe day, but a little bit
smarter than that.
Throwback.
Yeah, seriously.
(33:07):
That was pretty impressive backthen.
But what can it do?
I mean, I think it can give youa different perspective, right?
Especially just you and I,Kristen, I'm sure we've had
conversations about our company,right?
And They could definitely diveinto a little bit of an echo
chamber a little bit.
You know, we're just talkingabout us.
Oh, this is, this is, this isthis, and we do this and we do
this and we do that.
Right.
(33:27):
So having this kind of, I thinkmore, it's almost like a, like a
non-biased perspective ofthings.
It's just, let's just say on ina vacuum, what does this mean to
me?
What does this mean to thecompany?
What does this mean to theprovider?
Like just having this vacuumkind of just shout from, The
(33:50):
ether can definitely give yousome insight just because, you
know, you probably never thoughtof it that way.
And probably the provider thatyou're negotiating with probably
never thought of it that wayeither.
I mean, that's my biggest take.
I mean, my biggestinterpretation of how people are
using it, especially in theworld of law and just contracts
in general.
(34:10):
I mean, do you feel like youhave different perspective or
different take on it?
SPEAKER_02 (34:15):
No, I mean, I feel like I am aligned with you.
What I will say, and this is aterm I've been hearing more and
more frequently, is people usingAI as like a sidekick, like a
little buddy that like goes towork with them and like helps
them out in a time of need,right?
SPEAKER_01 (34:35):
Right.
I think that's the best way touse it.
SPEAKER_02 (34:37):
Yeah, I think that's the healthiest way to look at
AI.
It's there to assist you whenneeded.
We've talked about clauses abunch today, right?
We've gone through 10 passes ofthis one clause, and we cannot
agree on it.
Let me see what a chat bot wouldsay.
(35:00):
Let me see how AI would tweakthis based on what we've kind of
gone back and forth withalready.
And utilizing that, like yousaid, as an unbiased third
party.
And then if you choose, it mightspit out the worst clause you've
ever seen in your life.
And you say, thanks, but nothanks.
But it could pull something outwhere, hey, like you said, we
(35:23):
weren't thinking of it from thatangle.
Let's maybe change this, updatethis, alter this.
All right, let's send this out.
It's just that healthysuggestion.
SPEAKER_01 (35:35):
Yeah, I think your thanks but no thanks comment
really does resonate justbecause you have to speak with a
lot of people about this.
I just feel like as far as beingprepared and just kind of
understanding what's out there,I do think that's a very good
point.
Thanks but no thanks.
The reason I'm saying that isjust because A lot of people do–
I mean, you've got to get twoends of the spectrum, right?
(35:57):
You have people who are afraidof the AI.
That's understandable in acertain way.
But you have some people whothink they're going to click a
button and then just be able tokick up their feet and go to the
beach, and their job is going tobe done for them.
But I think the whole sidekickidea, thanks but no thanks, it's
really just another way to getan idea.
(36:18):
But I'm just imagining someonewho's– pushing to retirement,
right?
They've been doing this for 40years, right?
Oh, I know.
I know that this is the way togo with this clause.
I mean, sometimes that's justgoing to fall flat on its face,
right?
It's just I'm stuck in my ways.
I know better.
(36:38):
And I do think just even amindset like that can benefit
from this sidekick.
Hey, I just want to give you alittle suggestion.
That's
SPEAKER_02 (36:45):
all.
It's true.
And I mean– Why not?
Sometimes like we talked about,there's not enough hours in the
day.
If AI can kind of help you andtake some things off the plate
that allow your brain to focussomewhere else for a couple
seconds, those are all precious.
And, you know, I would love tosay, you know, the eight hour
(37:06):
day that we all work, but I'msure some people are listening
to this and would laugh and say,I would love an eight hour day.
But, you know, just have itthere with you, you know, to
take when you need it.
and reach out to it when youneed it.
And if you don't, that'sabsolutely fine.
Even things as simple as evenextraction, like AI extracting
(37:27):
data out so you don't have tomanually key in a bunch of data
about a contract.
Maybe the AI can do it for you.
But yeah, like I said, I feellike this is just a rapidly
growing world with AI.
I mean, in two weeks...
We might even be remiss evenincluding this in this podcast
(37:49):
because in two weeks there mightbe some revolutionary AI that's
been introduced and everythingwe just talked about is
obsolete.
I think it's an exciting placeto be.
Scary, yeah, for sure.
But I think there's a lot ofexcitement in it and I'm excited
to see where AI goes and how wecontinue to improve it and make
(38:14):
it work for us, at least in thekind of the contract management,
you know, life cycle of things.
SPEAKER_01 (38:21):
Definitely.
I think, like Kristen said, it'sjust it's rapid.
Next two weeks, we havesomething like the Terminator on
our hands.
Who knows?
Or could have some sort oflawyer bot that solves all of
our problems.
But, you know, that all comesback to keeping an open mind,
whether it's you're negotiatingmanually, negotiating with the
(38:41):
assistance with A.I., stuff likethat.
SPEAKER_02 (38:46):
So, I don't know.
Well, I think AI is a good placeto leave it.
We've talked about today, right?
We've talked about contract lifecycle, kind of breaking down
like what we see working with,you know, organizations
regularly, things that'll makeyou succeed, things you might
want to think about.
Talked about, you know,negotiations, things where you
(39:08):
could have, you know, Wherecould there be pitfalls?
Where could you really soar andsucceed when it comes to
negotiations?
And then just the always everpresent AI.
So hopefully those that arelistening found some good
nuggets in here.
Mike and I could continue totalk for probably another like
three hours, but we'll spareyou.
(39:30):
We'll do that offline.
But we just want to thankeverybody again for listening to
the podcast, for listening to usjust kind of banter back and
forth with our thoughts about,you know, the contract life
cycle in the healthcare space.
And yeah, hopefully you'll behearing more from us soon.
But thank you all so much.
(39:51):
Have a great day.
SPEAKER_01 (39:52):
Thanks so much, everyone.
SPEAKER_00 (39:58):
To subscribe and add this private podcast feed to
(40:24):
your podcast app, go toAmericanHealthLaw.org slash
Daily Podcast.
UNKNOWN (40:28):
you
Hello, everybody.
SPEAKER_02 (00:18):
Thank you so much for joining our podcast today.
My name is Kristin Riviello.
I am the Account RelationshipManager at Cobblestone Software.
SPEAKER_01 (00:28):
And hello, everyone.
Thanks again for joining.
My name is Mike Donnelly.
I am a part of the salesmanagement team here at
Cobblestone.
And to give you a quick littlebackground about Cobblestone in
general, we are a contractmanagement software provider as
well as e-procurement.
And that's going to be relatedto a lot of the things that
we're going to be talking abouttoday regarding just general
challenges in the healthcareworld when it comes to contract
(00:50):
management.
And if you're not too familiarwith software as either of
ourselves or elsewhere, we'reHopefully, this podcast today is
going to give you some insighton exactly what's out on the
market.
SPEAKER_02 (01:01):
All right.
So we thought to kick it offtoday before we jump into our
podcast topic, which is reallyjust going to be a general
discussion around contractmanagement in the healthcare
space.
We thought it might be a littlefun to kind of break the ice a
bit.
So since we are in the heat ofsummer at the moment, we thought
(01:23):
it might be nice to just kind ofkick it off by talking about a
favorite summer memory.
So I guess, Mike, I'll throw itto you first.
Do you have a favorite summermemory?
SPEAKER_01 (01:33):
Favorite summer memory.
I mean, I would say, you know,as a kid and now in my
adulthood, I do often go downthe shore.
I go to the beach every other orevery summer.
I used to go every summer.
Now it's like sporadic otherthan like little day trips.
As far as a specific memory, Idon't think I have too much of a
(01:54):
specific one.
I just, I guess I can call backto my childhood when I had my
summers off.
So I That's about it.
I'll be honest.
That in itself is a memory.
I haven't had one of those inabout a decade, a little bit
more than a decade.
I think that was my fondestmemory is just the free time.
(02:15):
I
SPEAKER_02 (02:15):
think that's what every kid, like why every kid
loves summer.
That summer off is just so nice.
It's like no school, it's thebest.
For me, as somebody thatactually lives at the shore or
at the beach, for anyone that'snot from New Jersey, yeah, I
(02:36):
don't tend to go to the beach alot in the summer.
And Mike will probably likelaugh a bit at my summer memory
because my summer memory, myfavorite summer memory actually
happened happened last summerbecause I'm a big music fan.
And I went to see one of myfavorite artists, Bruce
Springsteen, and I got to befront row at the show.
It was General Mission.
(02:57):
I put in my time.
They sang with him.
So that was just like, it'llnever get better than that for a
summer memory.
So that's it for me.
I
SPEAKER_01 (03:06):
mean, that's up there.
I don't know if it was anycolder than the beach now.
I'm sure it was a little warmthere, but...
Hey, that sounds like a lot offun.
SPEAKER_02 (03:16):
It certainly was.
It was a good time.
But yeah, so that was just ourlittle icebreaker that we
thought might be good to kind ofkick things off at the top here
before we got into the nittygritty of today's discussion.
So like I said, Mike and I aregoing to talk about just kind of
overall, you know, contractlifecycle management in
(03:37):
healthcare.
And I think we would be remissif we didn't kind of kick it off
by talking about just theoverall contract lifecycle as it
relates to healthcare andhealthcare contracts in general.
So I guess I'll kind of start itoff by I think so many things
(03:58):
kick off by that initial requestcoming in, you know, and
sometimes it might not berequests for contracts, but it
can be requests for amendmentsor requests for renewals or, you
know, even unrelated tocontracts overall, but it can
all kind of filter in throughthat initial request.
So I think that stage kind ofsets the tone overall for the
(04:19):
whole contract lifecycle ingeneral is having that, you
know, a good foundation to whatyour initial request is and what
your needs are going to be.
to be.
And then the always fun kind of,you know, authoring and
generating the contracts just ingeneral.
I know a lot of times, and we'lltalk about this a little bit
(04:39):
more in depth as we go, but Ithink it's really important to
have templates that are, youknow, use templates as your best
friend.
No one should be authoring, youknow, a hundred page healthcare
document on their own.
SPEAKER_01 (04:56):
And to talk a little bit further about that, I mean,
what we've seen definitely isjust, I mean, we speak with a
lot of other people, and I'msure the people listening to
this is going to be falling intothe same category, but no one
organization is the same.
I mean, this person's intakeform is an email.
This person's intake form is anExcel spreadsheet.
And, you know, as far as successand just kind of tackling the
(05:16):
life cycle, I do think, I mean,if you agree, Chris, and I feel
like uniformity is reallyimportant, you know, just
keeping everything standard.
Same with the authoring side ofthings.
It's just...
You don't want to be put in aposition where just one
department is doing this,another department is doing
that.
Just too many variables, Iguess.
SPEAKER_02 (05:36):
Yeah, I think most people listening that do this
day to day will probably agreethat the more things can be
streamlined and uniform, it'slike this is the process.
It always goes through thisprocess.
It's tried and true for us.
I think it's always going tobenefit and make for a more
successful lifecycle management,no matter what industry,
(05:59):
obviously specific to healthcaretoday.
I
SPEAKER_01 (06:02):
mean, even for us, it's...
constant change of process andwe can feel the challenge there.
SPEAKER_02 (06:09):
Yeah, we understand the struggle can be real
sometimes.
And speaking of that, I thinkmaybe the area in the contract
life cycle, at least in theearly stages, that can be the
most tedious and sometimestiresome and sometimes
(06:29):
frustrating, I would say thatnegotiation phase, because
that's where you're not onlydealing with internal and like
what your own internal, youknow, policies are, and hey, we
can accept these provisions, wecan accept these provisions.
But you're also dealing withthird party a lot of the time.
So that volleying back and forthcan be a very delicate balance.
(06:55):
And, you know, if it really kindof is initiating the whole
relationship, right?
Like if you have a really poor,a really laborsome negotiations
with a partner, sometimes youget to the end of that finish
line and you're just like, okay,well, what we got here and
getting here feels like the winand not necessarily what was
(07:16):
contracted.
Do you agree?
SPEAKER_01 (07:18):
Yeah.
Sometimes I feel like that.
Sometimes it's just, it's like,oh, finally it's done.
It's just like, sometimes it isliterally the beginning.
So yeah.
It's an uphill battle.
It's
SPEAKER_02 (07:30):
so true.
I feel like sometimes, like Isaid, it's the start of things.
And then even, you know, oncewe've negotiated, we've been
redlining, like, again, gettingeveryone to agree and getting
those approvals kind of, like,set in stone.
Sometimes that can take a longtime, especially if you have,
(07:50):
like, very...
for, just very nuanced processesoverall.
Maybe you need a lot of levels.
Maybe things need to go to aboard to approve things.
It's not just as simple as, hey,everybody agreed on the language
in here.
Now it's, hey, we need to getbuy-in from a larger group of
(08:11):
stakeholders.
And that's all before thecontract even gets signed.
So that's kind of like thestart, I think, think of the
life cycle, but Mike, what doyou think?
Like once you get thoseapprovals, what other steps are
in the overall life cycle?
SPEAKER_01 (08:27):
Well, I mean, I guess the end goal of approvals
is of course signature.
And even that in itself can be achallenge, kind of similar to
approvals.
It's just constant.
Who's got it right now?
Where's it at?
I don't know the status.
I got to talk to this person whoneeds to talk to that person.
It's just kind of, it can bekind of a little bit of a
cluster and, you know, butobviously signatures are is the
(08:47):
end all be all, at least for thefirst stage, for the birth of a
contract, if you will.
But yeah, I mean, evensignatures is a challenge
because you're still having tochase down the same people.
So anything that help kind ofguide visibility on that and
again, automation standard.
I mean, as we can, I mean, we'relistening to a podcast.
(09:07):
We're kind of in the...
I mean, it's a little, it'sprobably like 25, two years late
to be saying, Oh, we're in thenew age, but it just, I, we, you
know, you hear people that arestill getting their pen out,
printing it out a document.
And it's just like, I can't evenimagine what life was like 30
years ago, let alone, you know,15 years ago with this kind of
thing.
So, you know, people gettingsignatures now, I mean, they're
(09:29):
really, they, I'm just saying,if you're not using something
like an e-signature tool, thereis something to improve on.
And again, like even then it'sjust not even the signature
anymore.
And, you know, you move on onceit's signed.
That's just the beginning ofthings.
Now we got deliverables.
Now we got obligations.
And these things results are, Imean, it's just constant
tracking this, that, and theother thing.
(09:50):
I mean, I'm sure Kristen, youcan probably agree that it's
just, it's, it almost like, youknow, you strive for this
standardness.
You strive for the uniformuniformity.
And even then it's just like,once this thing's signed, it's
still like a mixed bag.
What's going to happen rightafterwards, how it's going to be
happening, how well it's goingto be happening.
UNKNOWN (10:08):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (10:09):
Yeah, it's
SPEAKER_02 (10:11):
true.
And like, I feel like even iflike, I feel like the perfect
world is the uniformity, right?
Everyone wishes that everycontract could be exactly the
same.
You know, the obligations areexactly the same, you know,
payment terms, like all thisstuff is the same, but we all
know that's not the reality.
So I think tracking thoseobligations is, I mean, that's
(10:35):
keeping your contract incompliance, right?
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (10:54):
has hundreds and hundreds or thousands and
thousands of contracts.
As Kristen just mentioned, thisis all stemming from the
approval, from the negotiation.
One small change can mean aworld of a difference for a
contract.
Kristen and I see it every day.
It's just, oh, all of a sudden,we need to learn this whole new
process.
We need to take care of thiswhole new thing.
Having something that reallyjust helps out with just making
(11:15):
sense of all of that is reallythe...
the solution.
It's just keeping everything inthe same spot, making everything
easy to understand, easy toaccess.
Accessibility is always nice ina world where we're going
digital.
So I mean, making sure thatwe're delivering things on time.
If we're not getting thingsdelivered to us on time, we want
(11:36):
to make sure that we're gettingcompensated for that kind of
thing.
But again, it's just from onenet 30, one net 45, that small
difference could mean a breachof a contract.
So it's kind of, it's tough.
Yeah.
but even, you know, complyingwith renewals.
I mean, even in my, I mean, I'msure you can imagine like in my
personal life, right?
(11:56):
Like I have subscriptions tostreaming services for music,
for internet.
And I don't use these thingsevery day.
I don't renew.
I renew when I don't even knowabout it until I'm$150 in the
hole.
Right.
Could you imagine just, I mean,again, I'm not, I'm just a
person, but I mean, I'm not alawyer by any means, but.
(12:18):
I mean, basically we can calllike an organization, a company,
a person with 80,000 Netflixsubscriptions.
How easy is that to forget?
Like, so getting the heads up onthat.
SPEAKER_02 (12:30):
In my house right now, there's three Netflix
subscriptions.
Like having something that'sjust like, sometimes it's like
in my day to day life, I'm like,I need something that tells me,
hey, this is coming up forrenewal this month.
Oh, like you said, like your$150Spotify or streaming service.
(12:51):
It's like, I forgot about that.
I forgot that it was this day.
And that's like you said, that'sjust like in a personal life.
So I would say probably a lotlower stakes, right?
Like a streaming service islower stakes than like, hey, we
need to manage this.
this multi-million dollarcontract.
(13:14):
But yeah, renewals, it's big.
It's important to be able tomanage those items.
SPEAKER_01 (13:21):
Yeah.
And I'm sure, I hope nobodylistening to this has ever been
hit with the auto renewal of amillion dollars where you could
not afford that.
I'm sure that was a really funday to learn that.
So being on top of that is alsoreally important in general.
UNKNOWN (13:38):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (13:40):
It's very true.
And you know what's funny?
So like we talk about the lifecycle, right?
I kind of want to circle back,if you'll indulge me, to the
negotiation phase.
Because like I mentioned, likewhen it comes to negotiating,
that is such a...
(14:02):
it's such a minefield, right?
Like you're just trying to likemake sure you're trying to
balance everything.
And we talked about uniformity,right?
Talked about, you know, thingslike templates and all that
stuff.
What sort of stuff do you thinkis really beneficial for
organizations to make sure thatthey're focusing on to make that
(14:23):
negotiation phase go asseamlessly as it possibly can?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (14:28):
Right.
I mean, I'm going to just callback to standardization.
I think that is the name of thegame, especially when it comes
to internal agreements.
It's just that's the only way tomake sense of everything.
If everything is kind ofsimilar, at least to a degree,
maybe not until red lines occurand negotiations occur.
But having a common startingblock is really the way to go.
And I mean, there are tools outthere that allow you to keep
(14:51):
everything out there, keepeverything in there, really, I
should say, and keep that thatstandardization going.
And I mean, really, it's just ifyou don't have that, no one's
going to make sense of anything.
I mean, even again, I don't wantto keep bringing in my personal
life, but like I'm sure you toyou to Chris and you have
certain regimens where youfollow.
(15:12):
Right.
And it's just how I wake up andI make my coffee.
Right.
It's just that's just mystandard.
Right.
And I mean, I think we couldtreat contracts like that as
well.
It's just sticking to theregimen.
That's what works.
I go to the gym after work.
I do this, that, and the otherthing.
And that's just how it works.
That's the way I stay sane.
You know what I mean?
Just keeping it on this regimen.
(15:32):
I don't know if you feel thesame way, but that's how I
operate.
SPEAKER_02 (15:35):
No, it's true.
And especially like the world welive in right now, there's so
much coming at you all the time,right?
It's like you're just There'salways, I feel like, an
oversaturation.
So if you have those, it's like,hey, this is tried and true.
This always works.
But I also think, like, I dowant to kind of call out
(15:55):
because, I mean, Mike, you and Iknow we work with tons of
clients that will say to us,like, I'm going to level with
you here.
Our process ain't working.
Like, we need to talk about,like, how we can make the
process better.
Right.
what are like the best practicesthat you can tell us from like
what you've seen, right?
(16:16):
So I think it's important tojust kind of mention on this
podcast that obviously theuniformity and the, you know,
the regimen that you follow whenit comes to contract management
and like your procedures andprocesses, that's the ideal and
it's great.
But also not, you know, you'renot alone if you're listening to
(16:38):
this podcast and you think,we've never had a uniform
contract negotiation in theentire time that I've been with
this organization, right?
Like it's, I think it's, but Ithink at that point too, it's
good to at least identify wherethe pitfalls are.
So you can kind of point to itand say, okay, maybe if we did
(17:00):
this moving forward, like let'smaybe just incorporate this, one
new thing that might benefit theprocess overall and taking those
small wins i think is is alsoimportant what are your thoughts
SPEAKER_01 (17:13):
on that for some reason i'm thinking about like
food how to make an analogy withfood like i go to a like a chain
restaurant right there's a itemon the menu that i love the most
right that's my template rightand then one day i don't feel
like uh you know maybe you go tothe order the same thing and you
swap out ketchup for mustardRight.
I mean, just having that swap inand out option is always good.
(17:34):
And, you know, no one likes arestaurant where they say, oh,
sorry, you can't dosubstitutions.
We kind of got to treat that thesame way with our contracts.
As silly as that sounds, it'sjust not not all of our
provisions are going to beperfect.
We have to understand exactlywhat I'm going to keep using the
food analogy.
Allergies are what preferencesare.
And we could just consider thatas an organization.
(17:54):
Right.
They don't like this certainprovision.
And we have to accommodate if wewant something.
As a business owner or whoever,if we want to deliver this
product, if we want to benefitfrom this product, we sometimes
have to take sacrifices here andthere.
That doesn't mean just...
Just during redlining, that'severything.
I mean, hey, I'm working with acompany in another country.
(18:15):
I have to make sure that Iaccommodate for this country in
XYZ provision.
I have to just make sure thatthe amount of time that I'll be
spending with this company isthe right amount of time.
I can't over-promise orunder-deliver or anything like
that.
I have to make sure that thetemplate I'm given, the template
I'm potentially tweaking alittle bit, fits the bill.
(18:36):
Really, I mean, I don't know.
I feel like that's just crucialto a negotiation is just making
sure that your starting point'snice, but once they actually
unveil what you got going forthem, it also makes sense to
them and to you.
You're just setting an exampleof a good business relationship.
I mean, I'm sure with theclients that you've worked with,
(18:59):
Kristen, you have a differentapproach for every single client
that you speak with, right?
SPEAKER_02 (19:04):
Yeah.
They're like snowflakes.
No two clients are the same.
SPEAKER_01 (19:08):
And no two contracts are the same too.
SPEAKER_02 (19:12):
Very true.
SPEAKER_01 (19:14):
Yeah.
So, I mean, eventually you haveto come to the– you're at a
crossroads.
I have to– you have to–something's got to give
basically.
We have to combine the two.
All right.
What does this person want?
What does this organizationwant?
What do we want?
What's our standard?
And that's really what anegotiation is.
It's kind of that mutual–understanding of everything.
(19:34):
And I mean, it's a criticalstep, you know, making sure that
everything melds togethercorrectly.
No, nothing's over likebulldozing a certain clause, for
example.
And, and honestly, speaking ofclauses, I mean, even that
itself, I mean, I think theseare the ingredients essentially
that I'm talking about.
And the clauses are just, theycan be a Mitch, a mishmash.
They could, this clause for meis great for me, but it's
(19:56):
horrible for this organization.
I not only just being a match,being appropriate.
It's just, again, that wholeexample of I'm working with a
company out of the country.
I have to make sure I have theright provisions in place for
that.
And I mean, there are tools outthere, especially in healthcare.
I mean, I see this all the timein healthcare when it comes to
(20:19):
certain clauses need to bebrought in based on the provider
I'm working with.
I need to bring in some addendabased on the provider, like what
state that they're eligible towork in and all of that.
And I've seen it.
It's just...
It's outrageous how much time isbeing spent just picking the
template's brain and just, oh,it's like a la carte.
I'm picking this, I'm pickingthat.
(20:40):
I mean, I don't know.
It's just sometimes it amazes mehow time-consuming things can be
and just being able to have atool that does a lot of the
heavy lifting for you issuper-duper important.
I mean, that's just allautomatic, really.
SPEAKER_02 (20:58):
It's true, and like– I want to shout out, it's crazy
if we don't have this, right?
Clause libraries.
Something where this is whereall of my clauses live.
This is where all of my legalteam who are the ones that are
(21:22):
working away on these contracts,these are the things that
they've said, hey, These areterms that we've gone through,
we've vetted, we think aremaybe, you know, obviously in
our best interest, but alsobenefit the third parties we're
going to be working with.
It's so important to have arepository of those things
because, like you said, ifyou're going through and you are
(21:44):
piecemealing everything one byone and you're changing stuff up
every contract, that is just notthe best use of time.
And I think, I mean, Mike, Iknow you will– I probably agree
with this.
Probably people listening willagree with this.
There's not enough time in theday to just not have things made
(22:07):
easier for us where maybe weautomatically include certain
clauses and things.
Anytime you can kind of cut acorner in a good way, not in a
bad way.
Anytime you can cut a corner andsay, hey, this is going to make
my life a bit easier and give mesome more time in my day.
is such a win for anyone that'smanaging contracts,
SPEAKER_01 (22:27):
I think.
Yeah, and I mean, I hope no onelistening can relate to what I'm
about to say, but I mean, we'vespoken with companies who, you
know, one department has theirown clause library and the other
department has another one, andclearly they didn't communicate.
So there's just no connection.
And then all of a sudden, youneed to go to internal approval,
right?
Oh, this department is twomonths behind.
(22:49):
Yeah.
This isn't the most up-to-dateclause, and we don't want to be
in that embarrassing situationwhere we're prepping together
for internal approvals beforeanything that gets negotiated,
and all of a sudden it's just wekind of are calling our pants
down.
I'll be honest.
It's just, oh, I guess I missedthat email, and we don't want to
be that person.
(23:10):
But I guess I've only run intothat a few times.
I don't know.
What about how you feel aboutthat, Kristen, if you've run
into that?
SPEAKER_02 (23:18):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's always interesting becauseI found that sometimes it's
almost like the clauses in thedifferent departments almost
contradict each other.
So it's like it's just very it'svery interesting.
How did this happen?
Sometimes it's like, OK.
Yeah.
It's like, I feel like we couldbe working together because
(23:40):
we're all working for the sameorganization and really be
helping one another and not likeworking against one another so
much.
But I think too, like going backto what you were saying too,
with like that internalapproval, maybe you do have that
department that's like twomonths behind.
I think that's another thing.
Like when you're moving intonegotiation, I think that's
(24:00):
where transparency and likevisibility plays such a key role
because like, you might beworking with an organization and
they're like, no, we needsomething yesterday.
Like whatever service we'resigning a contract for, we
needed that yesterday.
So you kind of need to kind ofgauge what's the timeline.
(24:21):
What does our internal likebandwidth and workload look
like?
And how are we going to makesure that, again, this is
successful?
We kind of need to make surethat everyone's on the same
page, which again,cross-departmentally.
I mean, you know this.
Sometimes it's really hard, butit's like we need to make it
work.
SPEAKER_01 (24:41):
I mean, we can relate sometimes too, but I
don't think it's ever going tobe perfect in any organization,
but we can only try, right?
I don't want to keep going backto standardization, but it's
just so common, a challenge thatwe see in our day-to-day where
this person has no idea whatthis other team member or this
other department is up to ever.
(25:04):
And that just all stems down toit's not standardized.
It is decentralized.
And tools out there offer that.
It's just a one-stop shop.
And I love a one-stop shop.
Everyone likes a conveniencestore, right?
I mean, that's the whole pointis I don't got to go anywhere
else.
I'm going to one store.
And I mean, just having that isjust super strong, really.
It's just an asset to anorganization just to not just
(25:28):
make yourself not fall in hotwater at any point during the
negotiation.
SPEAKER_02 (25:32):
I feel like that's the ideal is like, okay, if
everything can be in that, underthat one umbrella and that way
we can be as prepared aspossible.
If we need certain things, weknow where to go for it.
If we need to reference back toprevious terms, conditions,
provisions, obligations thatwe've accepted, it's there for
(25:52):
us.
It's easy to identify.
It's easy to see.
SPEAKER_01 (25:54):
And something else that's really important in tools
like, like you know, CLM toolsin general is, you know, I know
that people are probablythinking who's listening.
It's like, Oh, everything can'tbe under one umbrella.
I mean, this person, thisperson's day to day is so much
different than that person's dayto day.
And I mean, there are tools outthere that allow you to really
almost compartmentalize thesetypes of ideas where one per I
(26:16):
can be sitting right next toKristen, right?
She has no idea what I'm doingor in my day to day.
I like, we have differentprocesses, different jobs.
There are systems out there thatyou can log into the same spot.
I, you know, her and I couldrace into the system.
We log in at the same time.
Right.
And it looks completelydifferent.
My side's all catered to me.
Her side's all catered to her.
(26:37):
So that achieves thatstandardization, but also
doesn't overwhelm an end user.
Cause we all know growing painsis huge.
And talking about CLM tools isthe definition of growing pains.
I feel sometimes.
So I think that's prettyimportant to mention too.
SPEAKER_02 (26:51):
Yeah, I agree.
And even like kind of buildingoff of that a bit.
I know we're not going to divetoo deep into this particular
topic that I'm about to bringup, but I want to mention it
because when we talk about that,you know, having people cross,
you know, departments utilizingone software.
I think when we talk aboutthings like integration.
(27:12):
with other softwares.
I also think that's huge too.
Like, Hey, maybe we, there's onedepartment where they are never
going to abandon this one toolthat they always use.
So, okay.
How do we then work with that?
Can it integrate with our systemthat we're working on day to
(27:35):
day?
Again, Mike and I are in the CLMspace.
So we see integrations coming upas a, requirement so much more
often i mean i don't know aboutyou mike but i feel like even
since i kind of started in thisworld like six years ago like as
a daily conversation now thatwe're having with clients do you
feel the same
SPEAKER_01 (27:56):
i think it's growing i think it's more and more
common i feel like people areagain afraid to change i mean i
think that's very normal just ingeneral like in personal and
professionalized afraid ofchanges and they are kind of
apprehensive to move forwardwith something that would solve
their problems just because theythink somebody else who, like
you said, Kristen, probably noteven going to be touching this
(28:16):
thing.
It's going to have a conniptionabout it.
So being able to kind of makesure that you approach it with,
if you approach things withintegration in mind, it's like
for the other person that wemight be thinking is going to
get a little, have a little bitof an uproar.
If we make this monumentalchange with our, with our
processes, I think that, youknow, that gives them a little
bit more peace of mind.
(28:37):
You know, you could just stickwith your process.
It's working for you.
It's working great, but I needsomeone to help me out.
And if we can have a little tiein and, you know, that way you
can keep your peace of mind andI can revamp my processes, I
think it's a win-win.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (28:51):
And I think like it kind of goes back to what we've
been talking about throughouttoday to like almost putting a
bow on it where like we talkabout like being prepared.
We talk about standardization.
We talked about with your foodanalogy, almost like knowing
what ingredients need to go in.
Right.
Like all that stuff is soimportant.
Like before you even dive intothese, you know, negotiations
(29:14):
are ready.
Like, hey, talking about thatrequest where we kind of started
off like.
what stuff needs to be involvedin this, like what we're
requesting.
If we're out there looking forsoftware, what are the
requirements?
Like having that kind ofbattened down is gonna be so
helpful no matter, again, likewhat organization, we talked
(29:35):
about every organization beingdifferent.
I think that's probably auniversal truth.
The more prepared you are andknow exactly what you need and
kind of carve those items outprior to going into, you know,
initiating this whole contractlife cycle that we're talking
about, I think just benefits theorganization overall and you'll
have a much more successfulrelationship with that vendor,
(29:58):
that software, those services,like whatever it is that you're
kind of contracting services
SPEAKER_01 (30:03):
for.
Right.
And I mean, it's funny justbecause I know that my side, I
feel like we all can agree.
We all have experience with anightmare negotiation and it's
almost to the, it can be thepoint where it's just like, all
right we get it signed it's likegeez do I even want to work with
these people anymore like whatis going on but I mean in
general like being prepared likeyou're saying it's just like be
(30:25):
prepared for everything I meanpeople aren't just doing it to
be annoying people aren't doingit to be to be obnoxious and get
under your skin I mean at theend of the day the goal is a
partnership right it's just andyou got to be prepared for
anything that goes your waywhether it's about the specific
product you're having in mind,about the certain warranties or
(30:45):
what have you, or just thepayment terms.
You got to be prepared forreally anything and keep an open
mind, really.
I don't know if you feel thesame way, but I've been there.
SPEAKER_02 (30:56):
Yeah.
I feel like if you go into anegotiation with a closed mind
or preconceived ideas, again, Ifeel like it just is setting you
up for failure.
Yeah.
And it's funny too, because Iknow we're kind of, you know,
we're kind of winding downtowards the end of our
discussion here, but I want topivot a little bit talking about
(31:22):
being prepared for anything,right?
Let's talk a little bit aboutAI.
I feel like we have to, right?
Like we talk about it all day,every day.
Talking about being prepared.
I don't know about you.
Sometimes, when talking aboutAI, I feel like there's no way I
(31:43):
can be prepared for how fastthat sphere is moving.
There's always stuff coming outday to day.
What are your thoughts on that?
How to keep up with AI, how toutilize it, best practices, tips
and tricks.
Is it going to replace me?
(32:04):
What's going on?
I
SPEAKER_01 (32:05):
hope it doesn't replace us, but I think that's a
valid...
That's a valid piece ofintimidation, I guess, if I'm
just being honest.
But I mean, like you said, Imean, it is rapidly expanding.
I mean, even just I'm sure youand many people who are
listening have seen an AIgenerated photo.
(32:26):
And I mean, just a year ago,right, it looked like an
abstract painting.
Now it's like photorealistic.
And that's only going to happenfurther with everything.
But Replacing, I don't knowabout replacing.
And I think it's safe to saythat when it comes to my, in the
CLM space especially, I thinkit'd be very foolish for a
(32:47):
business owner or decision makerto just take whatever AI says as
the word of law.
And of course, I don't care howmany language modelers are going
through this AI.
They did not pass the bar.
It is a chat bot on a screen.
It's like smarter child back inthe day, but a little bit
smarter than that.
Throwback.
Yeah, seriously.
(33:07):
That was pretty impressive backthen.
But what can it do?
I mean, I think it can give youa different perspective, right?
Especially just you and I,Kristen, I'm sure we've had
conversations about our company,right?
And They could definitely diveinto a little bit of an echo
chamber a little bit.
You know, we're just talkingabout us.
Oh, this is, this is, this isthis, and we do this and we do
this and we do that.
Right.
(33:27):
So having this kind of, I thinkmore, it's almost like a, like a
non-biased perspective ofthings.
It's just, let's just say on ina vacuum, what does this mean to
me?
What does this mean to thecompany?
What does this mean to theprovider?
Like just having this vacuumkind of just shout from, The
(33:50):
ether can definitely give yousome insight just because, you
know, you probably never thoughtof it that way.
And probably the provider thatyou're negotiating with probably
never thought of it that wayeither.
I mean, that's my biggest take.
I mean, my biggestinterpretation of how people are
using it, especially in theworld of law and just contracts
in general.
(34:10):
I mean, do you feel like youhave different perspective or
different take on it?
SPEAKER_02 (34:15):
No, I mean, I feel like I am aligned with you.
What I will say, and this is aterm I've been hearing more and
more frequently, is people usingAI as like a sidekick, like a
little buddy that like goes towork with them and like helps
them out in a time of need,right?
SPEAKER_01 (34:35):
Right.
I think that's the best way touse it.
SPEAKER_02 (34:37):
Yeah, I think that's the healthiest way to look at
AI.
It's there to assist you whenneeded.
We've talked about clauses abunch today, right?
We've gone through 10 passes ofthis one clause, and we cannot
agree on it.
Let me see what a chat bot wouldsay.
(35:00):
Let me see how AI would tweakthis based on what we've kind of
gone back and forth withalready.
And utilizing that, like yousaid, as an unbiased third
party.
And then if you choose, it mightspit out the worst clause you've
ever seen in your life.
And you say, thanks, but nothanks.
But it could pull something outwhere, hey, like you said, we
(35:23):
weren't thinking of it from thatangle.
Let's maybe change this, updatethis, alter this.
All right, let's send this out.
It's just that healthysuggestion.
SPEAKER_01 (35:35):
Yeah, I think your thanks but no thanks comment
really does resonate justbecause you have to speak with a
lot of people about this.
I just feel like as far as beingprepared and just kind of
understanding what's out there,I do think that's a very good
point.
Thanks but no thanks.
The reason I'm saying that isjust because A lot of people do–
I mean, you've got to get twoends of the spectrum, right?
(35:57):
You have people who are afraidof the AI.
That's understandable in acertain way.
But you have some people whothink they're going to click a
button and then just be able tokick up their feet and go to the
beach, and their job is going tobe done for them.
But I think the whole sidekickidea, thanks but no thanks, it's
really just another way to getan idea.
(36:18):
But I'm just imagining someonewho's– pushing to retirement,
right?
They've been doing this for 40years, right?
Oh, I know.
I know that this is the way togo with this clause.
I mean, sometimes that's justgoing to fall flat on its face,
right?
It's just I'm stuck in my ways.
I know better.
(36:38):
And I do think just even amindset like that can benefit
from this sidekick.
Hey, I just want to give you alittle suggestion.
That's
SPEAKER_02 (36:45):
all.
It's true.
And I mean– Why not?
Sometimes like we talked about,there's not enough hours in the
day.
If AI can kind of help you andtake some things off the plate
that allow your brain to focussomewhere else for a couple
seconds, those are all precious.
And, you know, I would love tosay, you know, the eight hour
(37:06):
day that we all work, but I'msure some people are listening
to this and would laugh and say,I would love an eight hour day.
But, you know, just have itthere with you, you know, to
take when you need it.
and reach out to it when youneed it.
And if you don't, that'sabsolutely fine.
Even things as simple as evenextraction, like AI extracting
(37:27):
data out so you don't have tomanually key in a bunch of data
about a contract.
Maybe the AI can do it for you.
But yeah, like I said, I feellike this is just a rapidly
growing world with AI.
I mean, in two weeks...
We might even be remiss evenincluding this in this podcast
(37:49):
because in two weeks there mightbe some revolutionary AI that's
been introduced and everythingwe just talked about is
obsolete.
I think it's an exciting placeto be.
Scary, yeah, for sure.
But I think there's a lot ofexcitement in it and I'm excited
to see where AI goes and how wecontinue to improve it and make
(38:14):
it work for us, at least in thekind of the contract management,
you know, life cycle of things.
SPEAKER_01 (38:21):
Definitely.
I think, like Kristen said, it'sjust it's rapid.
Next two weeks, we havesomething like the Terminator on
our hands.
Who knows?
Or could have some sort oflawyer bot that solves all of
our problems.
But, you know, that all comesback to keeping an open mind,
whether it's you're negotiatingmanually, negotiating with the
(38:41):
assistance with A.I., stuff likethat.
SPEAKER_02 (38:46):
So, I don't know.
Well, I think AI is a good placeto leave it.
We've talked about today, right?
We've talked about contract lifecycle, kind of breaking down
like what we see working with,you know, organizations
regularly, things that'll makeyou succeed, things you might
want to think about.
Talked about, you know,negotiations, things where you
(39:08):
could have, you know, Wherecould there be pitfalls?
Where could you really soar andsucceed when it comes to
negotiations?
And then just the always everpresent AI.
So hopefully those that arelistening found some good
nuggets in here.
Mike and I could continue totalk for probably another like
three hours, but we'll spareyou.
(39:30):
We'll do that offline.
But we just want to thankeverybody again for listening to
the podcast, for listening to usjust kind of banter back and
forth with our thoughts about,you know, the contract life
cycle in the healthcare space.
And yeah, hopefully you'll behearing more from us soon.
But thank you all so much.
(39:51):
Have a great day.
SPEAKER_01 (39:52):
Thanks so much, everyone.
SPEAKER_00 (39:58):
To subscribe and add this private podcast feed to
(40:24):
your podcast app, go toAmericanHealthLaw.org slash
Daily Podcast.
UNKNOWN (40:28):
you
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce
Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!