August 29, 2025 • 47 mins
No two health law careers are the same; some follow a more traditional path, while others are more non-linear. Lisa Diehl Vandecaveye, Of Counsel, Epstein Becker Green, and Priya Bathija, Founder & CEO, Nyoo Health, discuss their unique health law career journeys and what they have learned along the way. They share how the health law profession has changed since they started their careers, secrets for a successful career, “icing on the cake” career moments, how health lawyers can support each other’s career journeys, and some of the skills that are necessary to be a good general counsel.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Welcome.
I'm here
SPEAKER_01 (00:19):
with my colleague and dear friend Priya.
We met several years ago whileworking on a webinar for AHLA,
and I want to say a specialthank you to Priya for
participating in the podcast,and special thanks to all of you
for listening to our podcasttoday.
Today, we're talking about ourhealthcare law journeys and
(00:40):
discussing how healthcareattorneys can help each other on
that journey.
Each journey is different.
but there are opportunities todiscuss shared experiences.
And that will make us all betterat what we do.
Specifically, we'll talk abouticing on the cake experiences.
Some of them are good, some ofthem are maybe not so good, a
(01:01):
little bit challenging, but theyare pivotal in our experience.
As all of you are very familiarwith, healthcare law has changed
very significantly in the last40 years, the same way that
healthcare has changed.
A New York Times articlerecently discussed how
healthcare has remade theeconomy.
(01:22):
It's pretty amazing.
In 1990, the majority of the topemployers by state were in
manufacturing.
In 2024, the majority of the topemployers in each state are in
healthcare.
If you think about that for amoment, the majority of the top
employers are in healthcare.
So that makes your job as ahealthcare attorney a very
(01:45):
important piece of today'seconomy.
We are exploring today thehealthcare law journey.
what it means to have an icingon the cake.
And then if we have a fewminutes at the end, what it may
take to become a GC.
So as we move on this journey,Priya, tell us a little bit
about yourself and your healthlaw career path.
SPEAKER_03 (02:06):
Yeah, well, thank you, Lisa, for inviting me to be
a part of this conversation.
And I love that you highlightedthat new data about healthcare
being the lead driver ofeconomies in communities, the
growth that presents to all ofus as health law attorneys.
So a little bit about me, I'vehad a non-traditional path
(02:27):
through health law.
I started with law school at TheOhio State University and
straight out of law school wentto a law firm that was based in
Akron, Ohio called Buckingham,Doolittle and Burroughs.
Spent some time there learningthe law learning health law,
understanding regulations likeHIPAA, anti-kickback, and Stark,
(02:51):
and represented a lot ofphysicians, physician groups, as
well as small hospitals.
After spending about four yearsthere, I went in-house at
ProMedica Health System, whichis in Toledo, Ohio, and again,
spent about four and a halfyears there in multiple roles.
I started as a hospitalattorney, just representing
(03:13):
several business units for thesystem and then becoming
assistant general counsel, or Ibelieve my official title was
associate general counsel, whereI continued to represent
business entities within theorganization, but also lead the
other attorneys within thedepartment.
I left ProMedica to go toMedStar Health System, where I
(03:37):
served as hospital counsel fortwo hospitals, MedStar
Georgetown University Hospitaland MedStar Washington Hospital
Center.
If you're familiar with thesystem, those are the two
largest hospitals within thesystem, and they are two of the
larger hospitals in the DC area.
I was there for a short periodof time before deciding I wanted
(03:58):
a new challenge and switchedover to the healthcare policy
space and joined the AmericanHospital Association.
I spent about five years doingpure healthcare policy advocacy
work around inpatient paymentrates, rural hospital issues,
and looking at new deliverymodels that we may use in the
(04:18):
future if hospitals invulnerable communities needed to
close.
So after doing that, I got a newrole at the AHA where I was
focused on building a think tankthat focused on healthcare costs
and affordability.
So that sort of took me outsideof the law and policy spectrum
into more education, strategy,understanding what hospital
(04:43):
leaders needed in order torespond to the trends in the
healthcare environment.
That grew into a much biggerrole that ultimately was called
VP of Strategic Initiatives,which I'm sure we'll talk about
more in our conversation.
And now...
For the past three years, I havewhat I call a portfolio career
(05:05):
where I'm doing multipledifferent things.
The first area I'm focused on iswomen's health.
I have a company called NewHealth that provides education
and resources to hospitals andhealth systems that are looking
to expand access to care forwomen.
I do some health equity work onthe side for large trade
associations.
(05:26):
And I teach at two different lawschools, which again, we'll talk
about as we move forward.
But it's a very varied journey,I think, that I've had that I
could have never predicted whenI was in law school, but have
really enjoyed watching it playout.
So Lisa, I just spent a longtime walking through my path.
(05:47):
Can you tell us a little bitabout yours?
SPEAKER_01 (05:50):
Thank you, Priya.
And you've got a veryinteresting career and I'm just
fascinated by the wholeportfolio concept.
So I'm hoping we'll have sometime to talk about that today.
My career path was a little moretraditional.
I started nearly 40 years ago asa healthcare attorney and as a
healthcare executive.
And over the course of those 40years, I've had about 25 years
(06:14):
as a general counsel.
So 15 of those years as ageneral counsel for a
medium-sized healthcare systemin Michigan, and then the last
10 years, or nine and a halfyears, as the Executive Vice
President and Chief LegalOfficer with the Joint
Commission.
I retired from the JointCommission in December of last
(06:34):
year, and I started the nextphase of my career, and I'm
currently of counsel withEpstein Becker and Green, and
I'm grateful to Epstein Beckerand Green for the opportunity to
continue to provide legal andgovernance services to general
counsels throughout the healthlaw community.
So in many ways, I've developeda very niche area in that I'm
(06:58):
looking to work with generalcounsels as they work through
some very difficult issues,utilizing obviously the
attorney-client privilege, butthen And then also to work with
governance.
Over the course of those 40years I served as board
secretary for 15 nonprofithealthcare boards.
So, if you've seen onegovernance, you've seen one
(07:19):
governance.
So, that's my 40 years in anutshell, and I'm sure we'll
have time to talk a little bitmore about that today.
SPEAKER_03 (07:27):
Yeah, that's great.
You know, I think one of theparts I love the most about
health law is that we can havesuch different career paths, but
still have so much in common andto talk about in conversations
like this.
And Lisa, you touched on it inyour introduction, but you
(07:47):
talked about how the health lawprofession has changed in the
past 40 years since you startedpracticing.
Can you share some insightsthere on what has changed?
SPEAKER_01 (07:57):
Thank you, Priya.
And, you know, we keep talkingabout change, but every time I
open up my computer, I look atmy phone, there's another change
coming down the pike.
And when we look at the last 40years, you know, when I first
started, I've always beenpassionate about healthcare and
passionate about the law.
So when I looked for anopportunity to springboard in
(08:20):
after finishing my JD and MBA,you know, I talked to several
professors and I said, I want todo healthcare law.
And I got this blank stare like,what do you mean?
There is no such thing as healthcare law.
You won't be able to make aliving on that.
And I said, no, this is I haveto follow my passion and I want
(08:42):
to do a combination here.
And at the time I did my thesison Karen Quinlan, since it was
the only controversial legalissue from an end of life
perspective.
So I took the risk and I forgedforward and that became a dual
path of doing health care lawand health healthcare executive.
So I followed the path and myfirst few jobs, I ran a
(09:07):
long-term care facility.
I had multiple departments in ahospital in addition to being in
the general counsel.
But you know what?
That risk paid off because thetime I spent in operations and
the time I continued to spend inoperations has helped me to
really understand the businessof healthcare.
(09:28):
So the industry has changed.
If you think about it, and Ithink back, we think of Marcus
Welby, right?
Where we had a physician inprivate practice, we had
standalone hospitals, and wedidn't have systems.
But those systems have evolvedwhere there's multiple physician
models, there's employmentmodels, there's multiple sites
(09:49):
of care.
I don't recall ever seeing anambulatory surgery center or in
urgent care.
In addition, we have multiplepayment models and we have
regulation in every aspect ofhealthcare, from HIPAA to the
Accountable Care Act.
So it really has expanded prettysignificantly.
And I would be remiss not totalk about the political and
(10:11):
social issues that are complex.
When I think back that thecomplex issue, difficult issue
was end of life, today acontroversial issue is a
vaccine.
Vaccines were nevercontroversial, but they are
today.
So it kind of gives you an ideaof you have to be pretty
flexible in the industry and bewilling to really dig in and
(10:35):
understand not only theindustry, but the practice.
So Priya, you've been inpractice 20 years.
So you've seen some prettysignificant changes also.
And can you share some of yourthoughts on those?
SPEAKER_03 (10:48):
Yeah.
So, I mean...
There are a number of changesI've seen, and I will say that
when I became a health lawattorney 20 years ago, I didn't
actually know that being ahealth law attorney was a thing
when I was in law school.
We didn't have any health lawcourses, which is very different
than the world we live in today,where there are not only sort of
(11:11):
certificate programs in healthlaw, but multiple courses that
are offered across law schoolsin this country.
So I didn't know that this wassomething I could do until I was
an associate at a law firm inthe summer after my second year.
And so I think that's different.
(11:31):
Another thing, you know, when Ifirst started, I remember the
healthcare partners at my lawfirm joking that there is no
better job security than to bein health law.
And at the time, Thank you somuch.
(12:02):
interpreting to be helpingclients navigate through.
And somehow 20 years later, itseems like there's even more
than there was 20 years ago.
Like you said, there's moreissues that we're focused on.
There's more vantage points.
There's different types ofproviders.
There's different types ofpayment structures that ever
(12:25):
existed before.
And so it does seem like a goodplace for job security.
The other thing I would say isthat opportunities feel more
broad and it feels like there'smore choices for young attorneys
that want to follow a health lawpath.
Again, when I was in law school,two options, right?
(12:46):
You go work for a law firm, youget a clerkship.
Those were the options that werepresented to us.
as students.
And now it's so much broader andI see it with the law students
that I teach both at MoritzCollege of Law in Columbus,
Ohio, as well as Loyola Schoolof Law in Chicago.
(13:07):
They have different paths thatthey can take straight out the
gate from law school.
I've seen law students get jobsdoing policy analysis for
organizations like the KaiserFamily Foundation.
I've seen them go directly intoin-house roles.
I've seen them take oncompliance roles.
(13:27):
They've taken on policy rolesstraight out the gate, something
that I took 10 years to navigatetowards.
They're able to sort of gettheir foot in the door early on.
So it's exciting to to see thegrowth of pure health law and
regulation, but also theopportunities that are available
to us as health lawyers.
(13:51):
So you've been doing this a longtime, Lisa, and I'm so thankful
to...
I
SPEAKER_01 (13:57):
have to laugh.
It has been a long time, butit's been a good career.
SPEAKER_03 (14:04):
Yeah, no, absolutely.
And I'm thankful for...
attorneys like you who have putbeing health lawyers as a
forefront and tried differentthings so that we have different
paths to follow.
Along the way, I'm sure you'vedeveloped some secrets to
success or thoughts on how wecan be successful as healthcare
(14:28):
attorneys.
Would you mind sharing some ofthose?
SPEAKER_01 (14:30):
Well, thanks, Bria.
I'm not sure I have secrets.
I have sort of a philosophy.
And, you know, sometimes youhave to sort of stick to your
gut and what your philosophy is.
And I like the use of acronyms.
So I use my philosophy as work,W-O-R-K.
(14:51):
It's work.
It's not your family.
It's not your personal life.
It's not your health.
All those are all important, butthis is work.
And so it also kind of remindsyou to keep it all into context.
So W, I know it's kind of corny,but, you know, is for work.
There is no substitute for hardwork.
(15:12):
I've known over the years, if Ican do anything, I can outwork
anybody.
And even at my years, I've beenknown to pull all-nighters if
there's something that has toget done.
So there really is no substitutefor the W or for work and for
hard work, because you alwayshave to be ready to learn and
(15:34):
you have to be ready to put thatextra effort in to take it to
the home run.
Always for optimism.
Many of us forget that we'releaders and as leaders, we have
to inspire others.
And so we have to be optimistic,even on those difficult days
where you say, I just don't wantto get out of bed.
(15:55):
I don't want to do this anymore.
Or you, as I had a boss once didthrow her shoe at my window.
It's like, You have to haveoptimism and you've got to be
optimistic because you have somany people that are looking at
you and your clients need youroptimism to help them work
through their difficult issues.
(16:16):
The R is for resilience.
And when I think aboutresilience, it's not just
resilience, it's activeresilience.
Actively thinking about the factthat I'm going to pick myself
up.
I'm going to find anothercreative solution if the one I
first came up with doesn't work.
You're going to get knockedaround.
(16:36):
There are going to be good days.
There's going to be bad days.
There's going to be verydifficult issues, sometimes
difficult people.
But you have to pick yourself upand do it with a smile because
you're advocating for a client.
You're advocating for anindustry.
And as such, you've got to beactively resilient.
(16:58):
And the last is K.
And K is for kinship.
And that's something I call theart of being a part of a team.
And that what you're doing andbeing a part of a team is what
really jazzes me.
And when you're working with ateam of professionals that have
integrity and a sense of humor,you're going to love what you
(17:19):
do.
Especially if the members ofyour team are passionate about
healthcare and passionate abouthealthcare law.
Because I think that kinshipwith being the part of a team, a
team that works well togetherand works to help each other be
successful, can work through anyissue that comes before them.
And we certainly have enoughdifficult issues to deal with.
(17:43):
So that's kind of in a nutshell.
So Priya, what would you like toadd?
You've been tremendouslysuccessful in many different
areas.
And so what would you like toadd to what are your secrets to
success?
SPEAKER_03 (17:57):
Yeah, so I love that acronym of work.
And I think that's a new secretI'm going to add to my future
work.
But, you know, I think Buildingon the K that you shared and the
idea of kinship, looking beyondjust the team that you work on,
but more broadly to the healthlaw field as a whole, working to
(18:20):
build relationships that reallylast, right?
So I'm not talking about arelationship that is tied to one
particular business transactionor meeting someone one time at a
conference, but truerelationships where you actually
get to know the humans thatyou're working with across the
(18:40):
aisle and relationships whereyou understand what your
colleagues at different firmsand different organizations are
part of the healthcare ecosystemare working on so that you can
help each other do all thethings that are in your work
acronym right to actually do thework to stay optimistic to be
(19:02):
resilient together and then ofcourse kinship back to building
longer term relationships and ithink about our relationship
lisa i mean our friend delphineo'rourke brought us together for
a maternal health webinar fouror five years ago, right?
And I know we both still workwith Delphine and she's doing
(19:23):
amazing stuff in the women'shealth space, but we've also had
the opportunity to stayconnected and to help each other
and meet each other in differentforums.
So we're not just connectedthrough the American Health Law
Association.
We're connected through thewomen business leaders in
healthcare.
We've had numerous conversationswith each other about career
(19:46):
decisions and paths and how wemove forward on different things
outside of just planning forthis podcast.
And so the Health LawAssociation is a great place to
start.
And we were just together in SanDiego at the annual meeting.
SPEAKER_04 (20:02):
And
SPEAKER_03 (20:03):
maybe because I had this podcast on my mind, I was
just thinking about all thepeople I was reconnecting with
and how so many of them havecome from relationships I've had
when I've been in multipleroles, right?
So there were outside counselthat we used when I was at
ProMedica, when I was atMedStar.
(20:23):
I was talking with people I haddone educational events with
during my time at the AHA.
So if you build the rightrelationships, they can help you
succeed and they can help youjust get by day to day in this
field.
The second thing, You touched onit earlier.
(20:45):
I think it's being willing to beready to learn new things all
the time.
The law is ever changing.
We're constantly getting newlaws and regulations that we
need to adjust to.
The healthcare environment isbeing challenged in ways it
never has been before.
(21:05):
And I think we as health lawattorneys need to be sort of on
the forefront of understandingwhat all of this means for our
clients, right?
And so I think about my careerand what I plan to do versus
what got thrown at me on anygiven day.
And probably the best examplefrom my career is when I was at
(21:28):
ProMedica.
I mean, I was a healthcareregulatory transaction attorney.
Like that was my sweet spot andmy zone.
Litigation, not on my radar.
Antitrust litigation, even moreso not on my radar.
But the FTC came in andchallenged a transaction that I
had worked on.
And before I knew it, I wassuddenly the lead point person
(21:53):
between our outside counsel thatwere experts in antitrust law.
the FTC and our business leadersthat were responsible for
testifying, providinginformation.
And so I got a crash course onantitrust law and it continued
that way.
Every role I've had, there'sbeen crash course after crash
(22:15):
course on new areas.
And had I not been willing to doit, I may not have had jobs,
right?
But I also just, I don't think Iwould have experienced my career
in the same way if I hadn't beenso willing to raise my hand and
learn new things.
SPEAKER_01 (22:32):
Right, I refer to those events as muscle memory
events.
Because you dive so deeply intothat issue for such a, well, it
doesn't seem like a short periodof time when you're working on
an issue for six months or threemonths.
But in the whole careerperspective, It builds that
muscle memory.
SPEAKER_03 (22:51):
Yeah.
And that's such a great way toput it because it comes up in
different places.
So there were some things Iworked on when I was at
ProMedica that I recently had aconversation with a women's
health startup and they asked mea question and I was only able
to answer that question becauseof the work I had done 10, 12
(23:14):
years ago.
And so I love that phrase,muscle memory.
SPEAKER_01 (23:18):
But isn't it, it's, it's, and I hate to use the term
cool because I'm dating myselfagain, but it's, it's really fun
in the sense that there arenever two issues that are the
same because the facts aredifferent, but the muscle memory
and like, okay, I remember thatbecause I dealt with this issue
and it just starts, the neuronskeep, firing, and you figure out
(23:42):
a solution.
But you wouldn't have known thatif you hadn't had the
experience.
SPEAKER_03 (23:46):
Yeah, absolutely.
So when you think about your 40years, and I
SPEAKER_01 (23:53):
kind of cringe sometimes when I say 40 years,
SPEAKER_03 (23:55):
oh, man, you should be so proud of it.
Like that is, it's so amazing tobe able to say like, 40 years of
building that muscle memory.
Like if a client came to youtoday, you are so capable of
handling anything that theycould throw at you, even in this
crazy environment because of it.
I think it's awesome.
SPEAKER_01 (24:17):
But you've had- You're very kind.
SPEAKER_03 (24:19):
You've had a pivotal career position.
Can you tell us what it is, howyou got there, what you learned
from it?
SPEAKER_01 (24:31):
Well, I think that in many ways we call these
pivotal positions as icing onthe cake, right?
I've had several pivotalpositions.
It almost feels like everyposition I've had has taught me
something that I've movedforward with.
But the most significant wasbecoming the General Counsel for
the Joint Commission, whichevolved into the Executive Vice
(24:52):
President, Chief Legal Officer,and Board Secretary responsible
for governance.
You know, back when thisposition became available on the
American Health Law Job Board, Isaw it and I said, man, that's a
really nice job.
I'd like that job.
And there'd only been oneprevious general counsel.
So this was a very unusual setof circumstances.
(25:16):
I was living in Michigan.
The job was in Chicago.
So I thought, I'm going to throwmy hat into the ring.
I'm going to fill out thepaperwork.
And after 13 interviews, fourtrips to Chicago, I had an
offer.
And I learned a lot aboutinterviewing.
UNKNOWN (25:33):
Just from that.
SPEAKER_01 (25:33):
So this was moving and taking this position after
30 years of only being inMichigan, which Michigan's a big
state.
I mean, there's a lot of bigstates, but this was icing on
the cake because 15 years as aGC, but it was all that basics,
understanding healthcare, havingfunctioned as a GC, having had a
(25:59):
leadership role at the AmericanHealth Law Association, having
been on their board, were allpieces that helped prepare me
for this leap of faith, so tospeak.
And every single piece adds up.
I had over a hundred health lawspeaking engagements, and some
of that just prepares you for abig step.
(26:21):
And for me, the big step wasMoving to Chicago, it took
courage, it took optimism,moving my family.
And for nearly 10 years, it washard work, but it was the best
10 years because I went frombeing in Chicago, being
responsible for a health system,to being responsible for a
(26:44):
business that had aspects inevery single state and in 70
countries.
And that's not something you cando on your own.
So for nearly 10 years, it tookme I built what I refer to as
the best in class legal team.
And to this day, I still referto them as the dream team.
And that dream team of lawyers,paralegals are the best in
(27:09):
class.
And they were able to do theirjobs because we worked so well
as a team.
And every single one of them wasincredibly successful, but we
were only successful when wewere able to do it as a team.
Especially when you're lookingat 70 countries and having a
workforce that's so diverse andalso being responsible for
(27:31):
delivering the health servicesand health services area across
all areas of the country.
So when we talk about musclememory, when your span of scope,
your scope expands sosignificantly, you have to
really draw on all of thoseexperiences and then have the
(27:52):
courage to move forward andbuild something bigger than what
you are.
And I think in many ways, Ibecame an expert at issue
spotting.
When I came to the JointCommission, I didn't know
anything about internationallaw, but I was able to at least
issue spot and develop resourcesboth internally and externally,
(28:12):
and then also developing anexpertise on governance with
another team of experts ongovernance within the Joint
Commission.
It really was so important thatI became a continuous learner.
SPEAKER_04 (28:25):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01 (28:26):
And one of the biggest things I had to do was I
got up every morning at five andI would read for just the first
hour just to see what happenedthe day before, what new was
coming in, and to try toanticipate or issue spot what
might be the issue of that day.
And then, of course, there's theconstant battle of responding to
(28:46):
emails because you have toconstantly be willing and be
there as a partner with theother health care executives.
You know, Priya, I've had what Ithink has been a great career
and I'm very grateful toeveryone who has given me both
some very positive experiencesas well as some challenges along
(29:08):
the way because I've learnedfrom all of them.
And your career path is sofascinating to me and it sounds
like so much fun.
So what would you say in 20years, what was your icing on
the cake?
SPEAKER_03 (29:20):
Yeah.
So, you know, Lisa, I thoughtthe icing on my cake was going
to be my job at MedStar.
It was in-house counsel for twolarge hospitals.
I was responsible for sort ofthe whole baby within those
hospitals from a legalperspective.
But it didn't turn out to bewhat I thought it was going to
be.
And, you know, you go to lawschool.
(29:43):
I had the sort of two pathwaysof going to a law firm or going
to you know, to a clerkship.
I chose the law firm path.
And then the dream became beinga general counsel at some point.
And so when I was 33, I got thisopportunity at MedStar.
I moved to Washington, D.C.
I was so excited.
I thought it was everything Ihad worked for.
(30:06):
And then I got here and...
It was a lot.
The organization was structuredvery differently in terms of
legal services than theorganization I had been at
previously.
I was young.
I had a lot of responsibility.
I had two different hospitalsthat had very different cultures
(30:27):
and approaches to nearlyeverything, but particularly law
and compliance.
And I was trying to manage itall.
as a 33-year-old, and it causedme so much anxiety.
And I was really good at it inthe sense that my clients loved
me.
The people I reported to andworked with liked working with
(30:50):
me.
My work product was good, but Ididn't feel on a day-to-day
basis that I was good at doingwhat I was doing and that I had
the skills, the confidence,wherewithal you would say to be
doing this role on a day-to-daybasis.
And so one day I woke up and Ilooked in the mirror and I said,
(31:13):
do I want to keep doing this?
And if the answer to that isyes, do I want to do this for
the next 35 years of my career,be in this in-house counsel type
role?
And for me at that point intime, the answer was no and no.
And so I started looking forother opportunities.
(31:34):
I was in the D.C.
area.
Policy seemed interesting to me.
And so I took the leap of faithto try something new.
And like you described with theJoint Commission, you know, it
took courage.
It took optimism.
It took some of my health lawfriends saying, OK, if you go
and you don't like it or itdoesn't work out.
(31:55):
you can come work at our lawfirms.
We'll take you back.
We think the experience you'regoing to get at a national trade
association is going to be sovaluable to us.
to us as a law firm, we'll bringyou back.
And ultimately it was thoseconversations where people
believed in me more than Ibelieved in myself that got me
(32:15):
to make the jump.
And since then, every jump I'vemade from policy to think tank
to starting my own company hasbecome a lot easier.
And I think I am in my icing onthe cake phase right now with
this portfolio career where I amable to pick the things I want
to work on, make impact in thespaces I want to make that
(32:40):
impact.
And each day feel like I ammoving forward my personal
mission in the way I want toimprove healthcare for
individuals living in thiscountry.
And so right now, It feels likethis is the icing on the cake,
but I have a lot of career leftto go.
So who knows where the next 15,20 years takes me.
(33:03):
Never could have predicted whereI am now.
So I certainly don't want to tryto predict where I'll be many
years from now.
SPEAKER_01 (33:10):
You said something that's so important.
You followed your personalmission.
And that is so important.
And I bet that's what jazzes youup and gets you going every day.
SPEAKER_03 (33:23):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (33:25):
You want to share with us today what your personal
mission is?
SPEAKER_03 (33:28):
Yeah.
I mean, my personal mission isto improve access to health and
health care for women.
SPEAKER_01 (33:33):
That's awesome.
That's really great.
SPEAKER_03 (33:35):
And I think it's so important.
And a lot of people say to me,well, why women?
Like, why not just improvingaccess to health and health care
for everyone?
And I'll just say, I mean,obviously I'm a woman, so it's
important to me from thatperspective, but there's so many
metrics and data points thatshow that when we can improve
(33:57):
access to health and healthcarefor women, we improve the health
and healthcare of entirefamilies.
And if we have to pick somewhereto start, I want to start with
the area that is going to leadto having influence with the
other areas.
And so it's not that I don'tcare about men's health or
children's health.
It is all related.
But moving forward on women'shealth, an area that has
(34:21):
typically been sort ofunder-researched, misunderstood,
is really important to me,especially in the current
environment where we're seeing alot of challenges to not only
women's ability to access healthcare, but also women's rights in
general.
SPEAKER_01 (34:39):
Well, I thank you for that.
SPEAKER_03 (34:42):
It's not easy.
I'll tell you that.
No, it's not easy.
But it's fun to be able to usethe skills I've gathered the
last 20 years to do things thatalign with that personal
mission.
UNKNOWN (34:59):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01 (35:00):
That's terrific.
SPEAKER_03 (35:02):
Yeah.
So one last question.
I know where we're sort of atour time, but what have you
learned from others and what areways we can learn from and work
together with other health lawattorneys?
SPEAKER_01 (35:16):
Well, I think, you know, I'll go, I have a lot I'd
want to say, but I'll go by thisfairly quickly.
And one of the things I'velearned is to listen more and
talk less in a meeting, uh, Youknow, in listening is hard and
you have to practice at it, butit's important to listen.
Integrity.
At the end of the day, you haveto follow your moral compass.
(35:39):
You have your mission.
And at the end of the day, youhave to do what's right based
upon what your moral compasssays.
You also have to be ready tomake hard decisions.
based upon the expertise and theexperience.
Then I also think it's soimportant.
You mentioned that we were bothat the American Health Law
(35:59):
Association meeting justrecently.
I looked around the room and I'mstill going to every session I
can go to because it's socritical to stay current.
And I learned something fromeveryone I meet and every person
I listen to.
It's kind of a personalchallenge.
But it's also that networking.
with other healthcare attorneys.
(36:21):
And it's so fascinating to workand be with someone like you,
Priya, because it's inspiringand you're making a difference
in the world and in the countryby pursuing your passion.
So what else have you learned?
SPEAKER_03 (36:36):
Well, thank you for saying that.
I joke around a lot that I'mjust a gal that works in my
apartment with my cat.
Sometimes it's hard to tell ifthe work is having an impact.
And I think you're right, it is.
But sometimes it's just nice tohear.
So thank you for saying
SPEAKER_01 (36:53):
that.
Well, I do enjoy your Instagramposts.
I do enjoy your LinkedIn posts,especially the Good News
Fridays.
SPEAKER_03 (37:02):
Wonderful, wonderful.
I think the only thing I wouldadd to what you have said, Lisa,
and you've captured a lot ofthese ideas throughout our
conversation is finding goodmentors and sponsors and
understanding how to utilizementors and sponsors throughout
your career to help you moveforward.
Now, mentors and sponsors arenot the same thing.
(37:23):
So I encourage you to startthere by learning the difference
between the two and how they canhelp.
I will say I've been lucky tohave access to incredible
incredible sponsors who have notonly been there to provide me
guidance when I needed it, butto open doors that I didn't even
realize existed to me in mycareer.
(37:44):
So in addition to all the greatinput that you had, I would just
add the need for those mentorsand sponsors.
And one last sort of flag isthat mentors and sponsors don't
have to be people who have moreexperience than you.
I would encourage folks to findintergenerational mentorships
and to learn from people whohave more experience and less
(38:04):
experience or the same level ofexperience, but across different
areas of the law or differentparts of the industry.
I think there's so much that canbe learned from everyone, as you
made the point in the sessionsthat you attended at annual
meeting, like there's so muchfor us to learn in healthcare
and about our personaldevelopment.
SPEAKER_01 (38:24):
You know, and it's so good because it's so
important to hear other people'sperspectives.
And very often I'll listen tosomeone who I disagree with just
because I want to understand.
And it makes me, it helps mycritical thinking skills.
Now you have to close your mouthand not argue with them.
UNKNOWN (38:43):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (38:43):
Well, and Lisa, I think that's so important given
this point of time that we'rein, right?
I think regardless of where youfall on the political or
ideological spectrum, it's veryclear that we have become a very
polarized society.
Right.
And there's a lot of we believein this way.
(39:03):
And so we exclude all the peopleor we cancel all the people who
believe differently than us.
And I think as health lawattorneys for our clients and
for the people that we representand work with, whatever
environment that may be, it'sreally important for us to be
the people that can listen,learn,
SPEAKER_02 (39:22):
listen.
SPEAKER_03 (39:23):
bridge the gaps between opposing perspectives,
connect dots where they need tobe connected, and really move us
towards consensus.
I mean, that's our role.
And I think it's important inour day jobs, but it's important
for everything in ourcommunities and society
SPEAKER_01 (39:41):
as well.
Exactly.
It's not comfortable, but it'simportant to be thoughtful.
SPEAKER_03 (39:47):
So
SPEAKER_01 (39:48):
very good point.
SPEAKER_03 (39:51):
Great.
So I think we wanted one morequestion.
I said the last one was the lastone, but I think we have time
for one more, which is that,what do you think are some of
the skills that are necessary tobe general counsel?
SPEAKER_01 (40:04):
Well, it's interesting, you know, that has
been my career path and it'sbeen a great path.
And, you know, it's, as Imentioned earlier, and I'll go
through these, it's, you know,the experience with the law.
issue spotting, but it's alsosenior leadership.
You know, I spent a lot of timewith American College of
Healthcare Executives.
I'm a fellow, and I'm so happynow that I'm a I think I've gone
(40:29):
to the next step, so I don'thave to pay dues anymore.
But I still get all thematerial, which I read.
You have to understand thebusiness.
And I know that, Priya, you'vebeen a speaker at the ACHE
conference.
So you appreciate the fact thatyou've got to stay current in
the industry and stay as currentas you can.
So I think it's in order to be ageneral counsel in a health care
(40:51):
organization, you have to knowthe business.
You have to be a senior leader.
And you also have to understandthe law.
Another piece is executivepresence.
And that is something that Ithink evolves over time because
people have to have confidencein you.
They have to trust you.
And here I sit still with ajacket on.
(41:12):
It's sort of my suit.
It's my armor.
And it's just what I do and howI do it.
So executive presence,expertise, and governance.
If you're going to be a generalcounsel, you have to know that
governance of the organization,you have to know how to make
that governance as nimble aspossible, but also as effective
as possible.
(41:33):
Delegation.
Boy, I talked earlier abouthaving the dream team.
You've got to be able todelegate and you can't do
everything yourself becausethere's so much on your plate.
So it's not only delegate withinthe organization, but delegate
outside the organization.
And that's where the networkingis so important.
So you know who in the outsidefirms, the law firms, whether it
(41:57):
be EBG, another big firm, whocan help manage a situation?
Who can you hire now?
I call it my lifeline, you know,can I use a lifeline?
We've talked about being acontinuous learner on multiple
topics.
And being a general counsel isnot for the faint of heart.
You're basically a generalcounsel 24 seven.
(42:20):
You have board reportingobligations.
You have obligations to thehealthcare organization.
You're part of a seniormanagement team.
So you have to be a part of thatteam, but you also have to focus
on critical and complex issues.
So I would venture to say, ifI'm working on an issue, I'm
also thinking about 10 otherissues.
Because very often I'd have toprocess.
(42:43):
And so it is a 24-7 job.
And then the last thing I wouldsay, you have to be humble.
You've got to know when you needto ask for help.
And it's critical to havetrusted sources that you can
brainstorm with.
And that was one of the issuesthat I struggled with, quite
frankly, when I was the chieflegal officer for the joint
(43:05):
commission, because I felt likeI couldn't share a lot of
information because of theprivilege, but I searched for
other outside attorneys that hadgeneral counsel experience and
that I could brainstorm with andsay, what would you do in this
situation?
Who might you use?
And that's where I created thisgeneral counsel services
(43:26):
practice at Epstein, Becker andGreen.
And it's really to assistgeneral counsels with issues and
still maintain theattorney-client privilege, that
safe space, so to speak, becausethe issues are complex and you
can save so much time if youcould take five or 10 minutes
and brainstorm it with someonewho has experience, has
(43:49):
expertise, and can help you movetowards a solution.
And it's the same issue withgovernance.
Governance issues can be verychallenging.
but they're also critical to thesuccess of the CEO and to the
organization.
So that's why as I move in mynext step of my career is to
really focus on generalcounsels, focus on giving back
(44:11):
to the health law community andfor all the wonderful things
that I've been able to touch onmy last 40 years.
So Priya, what was helpful toyou when you served as an
assistant general counsel and ashospital counsel?
SPEAKER_03 (44:26):
Yeah, well, Lisa, believe it or not, I wrote down
many of the same things that youjust covered.
So won't reiterate that, but Iwill say, this general counsel
practice group that you'recreating, I wish I had had
something like that when I wasat MedStar.
And I think having resourcesthat I could have tapped into
that could have helped not justwith the different areas of law
(44:50):
I was covering and the differentchallenges I was facing on a
day-to-day, but just to knowthat there was a community out
there of folks that were feelingsimilar things or going through
similar challenges as I wasfacing as that 33-year-old
attorney sitting by myself inoffice trying to advise two
hospitals.
So thank you so much forcreating that for other health
(45:12):
law attorneys.
I think it will be a reallygreat lifeline for those that
are aspiring to be generalcounsel or who are in general
counsel roles.
So I will turn it back to you toclose out our conversation.
SPEAKER_01 (45:27):
Well, I just want to say thank you to AHLA.
Thank you to Priya.
This has been a lot of funputting this podcast together,
but let's continue theconversation.
And I would challenge each ofyou that's listening to reach
out to other health lawattorneys and to think about
(45:48):
work, but also how do you followyour own personal mission
statement, as Priya hasindicated.
So Priya, what are your finalthoughts?
SPEAKER_03 (45:57):
No, I'm just thankful to you, Lisa, for
inviting me to be a part of thisconversation and to the AHLA for
covering a topic like this.
I think it's really easy forassociations to focus on
education that are specific toour actual areas of practice,
but it's really important tohave conversations like this
(46:18):
about our careers, ourprofessional development and
sort of where we can go in thefuture.
So very grateful to be part ofthis conversation and happy to
continue talking about bothtraditional career paths like
the one that you have taken orthose off the map nonlinear
(46:40):
paths like the one that I've hadin my career because both are so
important to moving the needleforward in health law.
SPEAKER_01 (46:48):
Great.
Thank you, Priya.
SPEAKER_03 (46:50):
Thank
SPEAKER_00 (46:56):
you, Lisa.
And stay updated on breakinghealthcare industry news from
the major media outlets withAHLA's Health Law Daily Podcast,
(47:16):
exclusively for AHLA Premiummembers.
To subscribe and add thisprivate podcast feed to your
podcast app, go toAmericanHealthLaw.org slash
Daily Podcast.
Welcome.
I'm here
SPEAKER_01 (00:19):
with my colleague and dear friend Priya.
We met several years ago whileworking on a webinar for AHLA,
and I want to say a specialthank you to Priya for
participating in the podcast,and special thanks to all of you
for listening to our podcasttoday.
Today, we're talking about ourhealthcare law journeys and
(00:40):
discussing how healthcareattorneys can help each other on
that journey.
Each journey is different.
but there are opportunities todiscuss shared experiences.
And that will make us all betterat what we do.
Specifically, we'll talk abouticing on the cake experiences.
Some of them are good, some ofthem are maybe not so good, a
(01:01):
little bit challenging, but theyare pivotal in our experience.
As all of you are very familiarwith, healthcare law has changed
very significantly in the last40 years, the same way that
healthcare has changed.
A New York Times articlerecently discussed how
healthcare has remade theeconomy.
(01:22):
It's pretty amazing.
In 1990, the majority of the topemployers by state were in
manufacturing.
In 2024, the majority of the topemployers in each state are in
healthcare.
If you think about that for amoment, the majority of the top
employers are in healthcare.
So that makes your job as ahealthcare attorney a very
(01:45):
important piece of today'seconomy.
We are exploring today thehealthcare law journey.
what it means to have an icingon the cake.
And then if we have a fewminutes at the end, what it may
take to become a GC.
So as we move on this journey,Priya, tell us a little bit
about yourself and your healthlaw career path.
SPEAKER_03 (02:06):
Yeah, well, thank you, Lisa, for inviting me to be
a part of this conversation.
And I love that you highlightedthat new data about healthcare
being the lead driver ofeconomies in communities, the
growth that presents to all ofus as health law attorneys.
So a little bit about me, I'vehad a non-traditional path
(02:27):
through health law.
I started with law school at TheOhio State University and
straight out of law school wentto a law firm that was based in
Akron, Ohio called Buckingham,Doolittle and Burroughs.
Spent some time there learningthe law learning health law,
understanding regulations likeHIPAA, anti-kickback, and Stark,
(02:51):
and represented a lot ofphysicians, physician groups, as
well as small hospitals.
After spending about four yearsthere, I went in-house at
ProMedica Health System, whichis in Toledo, Ohio, and again,
spent about four and a halfyears there in multiple roles.
I started as a hospitalattorney, just representing
(03:13):
several business units for thesystem and then becoming
assistant general counsel, or Ibelieve my official title was
associate general counsel, whereI continued to represent
business entities within theorganization, but also lead the
other attorneys within thedepartment.
I left ProMedica to go toMedStar Health System, where I
(03:37):
served as hospital counsel fortwo hospitals, MedStar
Georgetown University Hospitaland MedStar Washington Hospital
Center.
If you're familiar with thesystem, those are the two
largest hospitals within thesystem, and they are two of the
larger hospitals in the DC area.
I was there for a short periodof time before deciding I wanted
(03:58):
a new challenge and switchedover to the healthcare policy
space and joined the AmericanHospital Association.
I spent about five years doingpure healthcare policy advocacy
work around inpatient paymentrates, rural hospital issues,
and looking at new deliverymodels that we may use in the
(04:18):
future if hospitals invulnerable communities needed to
close.
So after doing that, I got a newrole at the AHA where I was
focused on building a think tankthat focused on healthcare costs
and affordability.
So that sort of took me outsideof the law and policy spectrum
into more education, strategy,understanding what hospital
(04:43):
leaders needed in order torespond to the trends in the
healthcare environment.
That grew into a much biggerrole that ultimately was called
VP of Strategic Initiatives,which I'm sure we'll talk about
more in our conversation.
And now...
For the past three years, I havewhat I call a portfolio career
(05:05):
where I'm doing multipledifferent things.
The first area I'm focused on iswomen's health.
I have a company called NewHealth that provides education
and resources to hospitals andhealth systems that are looking
to expand access to care forwomen.
I do some health equity work onthe side for large trade
associations.
(05:26):
And I teach at two different lawschools, which again, we'll talk
about as we move forward.
But it's a very varied journey,I think, that I've had that I
could have never predicted whenI was in law school, but have
really enjoyed watching it playout.
So Lisa, I just spent a longtime walking through my path.
(05:47):
Can you tell us a little bitabout yours?
SPEAKER_01 (05:50):
Thank you, Priya.
And you've got a veryinteresting career and I'm just
fascinated by the wholeportfolio concept.
So I'm hoping we'll have sometime to talk about that today.
My career path was a little moretraditional.
I started nearly 40 years ago asa healthcare attorney and as a
healthcare executive.
And over the course of those 40years, I've had about 25 years
(06:14):
as a general counsel.
So 15 of those years as ageneral counsel for a
medium-sized healthcare systemin Michigan, and then the last
10 years, or nine and a halfyears, as the Executive Vice
President and Chief LegalOfficer with the Joint
Commission.
I retired from the JointCommission in December of last
(06:34):
year, and I started the nextphase of my career, and I'm
currently of counsel withEpstein Becker and Green, and
I'm grateful to Epstein Beckerand Green for the opportunity to
continue to provide legal andgovernance services to general
counsels throughout the healthlaw community.
So in many ways, I've developeda very niche area in that I'm
(06:58):
looking to work with generalcounsels as they work through
some very difficult issues,utilizing obviously the
attorney-client privilege, butthen And then also to work with
governance.
Over the course of those 40years I served as board
secretary for 15 nonprofithealthcare boards.
So, if you've seen onegovernance, you've seen one
(07:19):
governance.
So, that's my 40 years in anutshell, and I'm sure we'll
have time to talk a little bitmore about that today.
SPEAKER_03 (07:27):
Yeah, that's great.
You know, I think one of theparts I love the most about
health law is that we can havesuch different career paths, but
still have so much in common andto talk about in conversations
like this.
And Lisa, you touched on it inyour introduction, but you
(07:47):
talked about how the health lawprofession has changed in the
past 40 years since you startedpracticing.
Can you share some insightsthere on what has changed?
SPEAKER_01 (07:57):
Thank you, Priya.
And, you know, we keep talkingabout change, but every time I
open up my computer, I look atmy phone, there's another change
coming down the pike.
And when we look at the last 40years, you know, when I first
started, I've always beenpassionate about healthcare and
passionate about the law.
So when I looked for anopportunity to springboard in
(08:20):
after finishing my JD and MBA,you know, I talked to several
professors and I said, I want todo healthcare law.
And I got this blank stare like,what do you mean?
There is no such thing as healthcare law.
You won't be able to make aliving on that.
And I said, no, this is I haveto follow my passion and I want
(08:42):
to do a combination here.
And at the time I did my thesison Karen Quinlan, since it was
the only controversial legalissue from an end of life
perspective.
So I took the risk and I forgedforward and that became a dual
path of doing health care lawand health healthcare executive.
So I followed the path and myfirst few jobs, I ran a
(09:07):
long-term care facility.
I had multiple departments in ahospital in addition to being in
the general counsel.
But you know what?
That risk paid off because thetime I spent in operations and
the time I continued to spend inoperations has helped me to
really understand the businessof healthcare.
(09:28):
So the industry has changed.
If you think about it, and Ithink back, we think of Marcus
Welby, right?
Where we had a physician inprivate practice, we had
standalone hospitals, and wedidn't have systems.
But those systems have evolvedwhere there's multiple physician
models, there's employmentmodels, there's multiple sites
(09:49):
of care.
I don't recall ever seeing anambulatory surgery center or in
urgent care.
In addition, we have multiplepayment models and we have
regulation in every aspect ofhealthcare, from HIPAA to the
Accountable Care Act.
So it really has expanded prettysignificantly.
And I would be remiss not totalk about the political and
(10:11):
social issues that are complex.
When I think back that thecomplex issue, difficult issue
was end of life, today acontroversial issue is a
vaccine.
Vaccines were nevercontroversial, but they are
today.
So it kind of gives you an ideaof you have to be pretty
flexible in the industry and bewilling to really dig in and
(10:35):
understand not only theindustry, but the practice.
So Priya, you've been inpractice 20 years.
So you've seen some prettysignificant changes also.
And can you share some of yourthoughts on those?
SPEAKER_03 (10:48):
Yeah.
So, I mean...
There are a number of changesI've seen, and I will say that
when I became a health lawattorney 20 years ago, I didn't
actually know that being ahealth law attorney was a thing
when I was in law school.
We didn't have any health lawcourses, which is very different
than the world we live in today,where there are not only sort of
(11:11):
certificate programs in healthlaw, but multiple courses that
are offered across law schoolsin this country.
So I didn't know that this wassomething I could do until I was
an associate at a law firm inthe summer after my second year.
And so I think that's different.
(11:31):
Another thing, you know, when Ifirst started, I remember the
healthcare partners at my lawfirm joking that there is no
better job security than to bein health law.
And at the time, Thank you somuch.
(12:02):
interpreting to be helpingclients navigate through.
And somehow 20 years later, itseems like there's even more
than there was 20 years ago.
Like you said, there's moreissues that we're focused on.
There's more vantage points.
There's different types ofproviders.
There's different types ofpayment structures that ever
(12:25):
existed before.
And so it does seem like a goodplace for job security.
The other thing I would say isthat opportunities feel more
broad and it feels like there'smore choices for young attorneys
that want to follow a health lawpath.
Again, when I was in law school,two options, right?
(12:46):
You go work for a law firm, youget a clerkship.
Those were the options that werepresented to us.
as students.
And now it's so much broader andI see it with the law students
that I teach both at MoritzCollege of Law in Columbus,
Ohio, as well as Loyola Schoolof Law in Chicago.
(13:07):
They have different paths thatthey can take straight out the
gate from law school.
I've seen law students get jobsdoing policy analysis for
organizations like the KaiserFamily Foundation.
I've seen them go directly intoin-house roles.
I've seen them take oncompliance roles.
(13:27):
They've taken on policy rolesstraight out the gate, something
that I took 10 years to navigatetowards.
They're able to sort of gettheir foot in the door early on.
So it's exciting to to see thegrowth of pure health law and
regulation, but also theopportunities that are available
to us as health lawyers.
(13:51):
So you've been doing this a longtime, Lisa, and I'm so thankful
to...
I
SPEAKER_01 (13:57):
have to laugh.
It has been a long time, butit's been a good career.
SPEAKER_03 (14:04):
Yeah, no, absolutely.
And I'm thankful for...
attorneys like you who have putbeing health lawyers as a
forefront and tried differentthings so that we have different
paths to follow.
Along the way, I'm sure you'vedeveloped some secrets to
success or thoughts on how wecan be successful as healthcare
(14:28):
attorneys.
Would you mind sharing some ofthose?
SPEAKER_01 (14:30):
Well, thanks, Bria.
I'm not sure I have secrets.
I have sort of a philosophy.
And, you know, sometimes youhave to sort of stick to your
gut and what your philosophy is.
And I like the use of acronyms.
So I use my philosophy as work,W-O-R-K.
(14:51):
It's work.
It's not your family.
It's not your personal life.
It's not your health.
All those are all important, butthis is work.
And so it also kind of remindsyou to keep it all into context.
So W, I know it's kind of corny,but, you know, is for work.
There is no substitute for hardwork.
(15:12):
I've known over the years, if Ican do anything, I can outwork
anybody.
And even at my years, I've beenknown to pull all-nighters if
there's something that has toget done.
So there really is no substitutefor the W or for work and for
hard work, because you alwayshave to be ready to learn and
(15:34):
you have to be ready to put thatextra effort in to take it to
the home run.
Always for optimism.
Many of us forget that we'releaders and as leaders, we have
to inspire others.
And so we have to be optimistic,even on those difficult days
where you say, I just don't wantto get out of bed.
(15:55):
I don't want to do this anymore.
Or you, as I had a boss once didthrow her shoe at my window.
It's like, You have to haveoptimism and you've got to be
optimistic because you have somany people that are looking at
you and your clients need youroptimism to help them work
through their difficult issues.
(16:16):
The R is for resilience.
And when I think aboutresilience, it's not just
resilience, it's activeresilience.
Actively thinking about the factthat I'm going to pick myself
up.
I'm going to find anothercreative solution if the one I
first came up with doesn't work.
You're going to get knockedaround.
(16:36):
There are going to be good days.
There's going to be bad days.
There's going to be verydifficult issues, sometimes
difficult people.
But you have to pick yourself upand do it with a smile because
you're advocating for a client.
You're advocating for anindustry.
And as such, you've got to beactively resilient.
(16:58):
And the last is K.
And K is for kinship.
And that's something I call theart of being a part of a team.
And that what you're doing andbeing a part of a team is what
really jazzes me.
And when you're working with ateam of professionals that have
integrity and a sense of humor,you're going to love what you
(17:19):
do.
Especially if the members ofyour team are passionate about
healthcare and passionate abouthealthcare law.
Because I think that kinshipwith being the part of a team, a
team that works well togetherand works to help each other be
successful, can work through anyissue that comes before them.
And we certainly have enoughdifficult issues to deal with.
(17:43):
So that's kind of in a nutshell.
So Priya, what would you like toadd?
You've been tremendouslysuccessful in many different
areas.
And so what would you like toadd to what are your secrets to
success?
SPEAKER_03 (17:57):
Yeah, so I love that acronym of work.
And I think that's a new secretI'm going to add to my future
work.
But, you know, I think Buildingon the K that you shared and the
idea of kinship, looking beyondjust the team that you work on,
but more broadly to the healthlaw field as a whole, working to
(18:20):
build relationships that reallylast, right?
So I'm not talking about arelationship that is tied to one
particular business transactionor meeting someone one time at a
conference, but truerelationships where you actually
get to know the humans thatyou're working with across the
(18:40):
aisle and relationships whereyou understand what your
colleagues at different firmsand different organizations are
part of the healthcare ecosystemare working on so that you can
help each other do all thethings that are in your work
acronym right to actually do thework to stay optimistic to be
(19:02):
resilient together and then ofcourse kinship back to building
longer term relationships and ithink about our relationship
lisa i mean our friend delphineo'rourke brought us together for
a maternal health webinar fouror five years ago, right?
And I know we both still workwith Delphine and she's doing
(19:23):
amazing stuff in the women'shealth space, but we've also had
the opportunity to stayconnected and to help each other
and meet each other in differentforums.
So we're not just connectedthrough the American Health Law
Association.
We're connected through thewomen business leaders in
healthcare.
We've had numerous conversationswith each other about career
(19:46):
decisions and paths and how wemove forward on different things
outside of just planning forthis podcast.
And so the Health LawAssociation is a great place to
start.
And we were just together in SanDiego at the annual meeting.
SPEAKER_04 (20:02):
And
SPEAKER_03 (20:03):
maybe because I had this podcast on my mind, I was
just thinking about all thepeople I was reconnecting with
and how so many of them havecome from relationships I've had
when I've been in multipleroles, right?
So there were outside counselthat we used when I was at
ProMedica, when I was atMedStar.
(20:23):
I was talking with people I haddone educational events with
during my time at the AHA.
So if you build the rightrelationships, they can help you
succeed and they can help youjust get by day to day in this
field.
The second thing, You touched onit earlier.
(20:45):
I think it's being willing to beready to learn new things all
the time.
The law is ever changing.
We're constantly getting newlaws and regulations that we
need to adjust to.
The healthcare environment isbeing challenged in ways it
never has been before.
(21:05):
And I think we as health lawattorneys need to be sort of on
the forefront of understandingwhat all of this means for our
clients, right?
And so I think about my careerand what I plan to do versus
what got thrown at me on anygiven day.
And probably the best examplefrom my career is when I was at
(21:28):
ProMedica.
I mean, I was a healthcareregulatory transaction attorney.
Like that was my sweet spot andmy zone.
Litigation, not on my radar.
Antitrust litigation, even moreso not on my radar.
But the FTC came in andchallenged a transaction that I
had worked on.
And before I knew it, I wassuddenly the lead point person
(21:53):
between our outside counsel thatwere experts in antitrust law.
the FTC and our business leadersthat were responsible for
testifying, providinginformation.
And so I got a crash course onantitrust law and it continued
that way.
Every role I've had, there'sbeen crash course after crash
(22:15):
course on new areas.
And had I not been willing to doit, I may not have had jobs,
right?
But I also just, I don't think Iwould have experienced my career
in the same way if I hadn't beenso willing to raise my hand and
learn new things.
SPEAKER_01 (22:32):
Right, I refer to those events as muscle memory
events.
Because you dive so deeply intothat issue for such a, well, it
doesn't seem like a short periodof time when you're working on
an issue for six months or threemonths.
But in the whole careerperspective, It builds that
muscle memory.
SPEAKER_03 (22:51):
Yeah.
And that's such a great way toput it because it comes up in
different places.
So there were some things Iworked on when I was at
ProMedica that I recently had aconversation with a women's
health startup and they asked mea question and I was only able
to answer that question becauseof the work I had done 10, 12
(23:14):
years ago.
And so I love that phrase,muscle memory.
SPEAKER_01 (23:18):
But isn't it, it's, it's, and I hate to use the term
cool because I'm dating myselfagain, but it's, it's really fun
in the sense that there arenever two issues that are the
same because the facts aredifferent, but the muscle memory
and like, okay, I remember thatbecause I dealt with this issue
and it just starts, the neuronskeep, firing, and you figure out
(23:42):
a solution.
But you wouldn't have known thatif you hadn't had the
experience.
SPEAKER_03 (23:46):
Yeah, absolutely.
So when you think about your 40years, and I
SPEAKER_01 (23:53):
kind of cringe sometimes when I say 40 years,
SPEAKER_03 (23:55):
oh, man, you should be so proud of it.
Like that is, it's so amazing tobe able to say like, 40 years of
building that muscle memory.
Like if a client came to youtoday, you are so capable of
handling anything that theycould throw at you, even in this
crazy environment because of it.
I think it's awesome.
SPEAKER_01 (24:17):
But you've had- You're very kind.
SPEAKER_03 (24:19):
You've had a pivotal career position.
Can you tell us what it is, howyou got there, what you learned
from it?
SPEAKER_01 (24:31):
Well, I think that in many ways we call these
pivotal positions as icing onthe cake, right?
I've had several pivotalpositions.
It almost feels like everyposition I've had has taught me
something that I've movedforward with.
But the most significant wasbecoming the General Counsel for
the Joint Commission, whichevolved into the Executive Vice
(24:52):
President, Chief Legal Officer,and Board Secretary responsible
for governance.
You know, back when thisposition became available on the
American Health Law Job Board, Isaw it and I said, man, that's a
really nice job.
I'd like that job.
And there'd only been oneprevious general counsel.
So this was a very unusual setof circumstances.
(25:16):
I was living in Michigan.
The job was in Chicago.
So I thought, I'm going to throwmy hat into the ring.
I'm going to fill out thepaperwork.
And after 13 interviews, fourtrips to Chicago, I had an
offer.
And I learned a lot aboutinterviewing.
UNKNOWN (25:33):
Just from that.
SPEAKER_01 (25:33):
So this was moving and taking this position after
30 years of only being inMichigan, which Michigan's a big
state.
I mean, there's a lot of bigstates, but this was icing on
the cake because 15 years as aGC, but it was all that basics,
understanding healthcare, havingfunctioned as a GC, having had a
(25:59):
leadership role at the AmericanHealth Law Association, having
been on their board, were allpieces that helped prepare me
for this leap of faith, so tospeak.
And every single piece adds up.
I had over a hundred health lawspeaking engagements, and some
of that just prepares you for abig step.
(26:21):
And for me, the big step wasMoving to Chicago, it took
courage, it took optimism,moving my family.
And for nearly 10 years, it washard work, but it was the best
10 years because I went frombeing in Chicago, being
responsible for a health system,to being responsible for a
(26:44):
business that had aspects inevery single state and in 70
countries.
And that's not something you cando on your own.
So for nearly 10 years, it tookme I built what I refer to as
the best in class legal team.
And to this day, I still referto them as the dream team.
And that dream team of lawyers,paralegals are the best in
(27:09):
class.
And they were able to do theirjobs because we worked so well
as a team.
And every single one of them wasincredibly successful, but we
were only successful when wewere able to do it as a team.
Especially when you're lookingat 70 countries and having a
workforce that's so diverse andalso being responsible for
(27:31):
delivering the health servicesand health services area across
all areas of the country.
So when we talk about musclememory, when your span of scope,
your scope expands sosignificantly, you have to
really draw on all of thoseexperiences and then have the
(27:52):
courage to move forward andbuild something bigger than what
you are.
And I think in many ways, Ibecame an expert at issue
spotting.
When I came to the JointCommission, I didn't know
anything about internationallaw, but I was able to at least
issue spot and develop resourcesboth internally and externally,
(28:12):
and then also developing anexpertise on governance with
another team of experts ongovernance within the Joint
Commission.
It really was so important thatI became a continuous learner.
SPEAKER_04 (28:25):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01 (28:26):
And one of the biggest things I had to do was I
got up every morning at five andI would read for just the first
hour just to see what happenedthe day before, what new was
coming in, and to try toanticipate or issue spot what
might be the issue of that day.
And then, of course, there's theconstant battle of responding to
(28:46):
emails because you have toconstantly be willing and be
there as a partner with theother health care executives.
You know, Priya, I've had what Ithink has been a great career
and I'm very grateful toeveryone who has given me both
some very positive experiencesas well as some challenges along
(29:08):
the way because I've learnedfrom all of them.
And your career path is sofascinating to me and it sounds
like so much fun.
So what would you say in 20years, what was your icing on
the cake?
SPEAKER_03 (29:20):
Yeah.
So, you know, Lisa, I thoughtthe icing on my cake was going
to be my job at MedStar.
It was in-house counsel for twolarge hospitals.
I was responsible for sort ofthe whole baby within those
hospitals from a legalperspective.
But it didn't turn out to bewhat I thought it was going to
be.
And, you know, you go to lawschool.
(29:43):
I had the sort of two pathwaysof going to a law firm or going
to you know, to a clerkship.
I chose the law firm path.
And then the dream became beinga general counsel at some point.
And so when I was 33, I got thisopportunity at MedStar.
I moved to Washington, D.C.
I was so excited.
I thought it was everything Ihad worked for.
(30:06):
And then I got here and...
It was a lot.
The organization was structuredvery differently in terms of
legal services than theorganization I had been at
previously.
I was young.
I had a lot of responsibility.
I had two different hospitalsthat had very different cultures
(30:27):
and approaches to nearlyeverything, but particularly law
and compliance.
And I was trying to manage itall.
as a 33-year-old, and it causedme so much anxiety.
And I was really good at it inthe sense that my clients loved
me.
The people I reported to andworked with liked working with
(30:50):
me.
My work product was good, but Ididn't feel on a day-to-day
basis that I was good at doingwhat I was doing and that I had
the skills, the confidence,wherewithal you would say to be
doing this role on a day-to-daybasis.
And so one day I woke up and Ilooked in the mirror and I said,
(31:13):
do I want to keep doing this?
And if the answer to that isyes, do I want to do this for
the next 35 years of my career,be in this in-house counsel type
role?
And for me at that point intime, the answer was no and no.
And so I started looking forother opportunities.
(31:34):
I was in the D.C.
area.
Policy seemed interesting to me.
And so I took the leap of faithto try something new.
And like you described with theJoint Commission, you know, it
took courage.
It took optimism.
It took some of my health lawfriends saying, OK, if you go
and you don't like it or itdoesn't work out.
(31:55):
you can come work at our lawfirms.
We'll take you back.
We think the experience you'regoing to get at a national trade
association is going to be sovaluable to us.
to us as a law firm, we'll bringyou back.
And ultimately it was thoseconversations where people
believed in me more than Ibelieved in myself that got me
(32:15):
to make the jump.
And since then, every jump I'vemade from policy to think tank
to starting my own company hasbecome a lot easier.
And I think I am in my icing onthe cake phase right now with
this portfolio career where I amable to pick the things I want
to work on, make impact in thespaces I want to make that
(32:40):
impact.
And each day feel like I ammoving forward my personal
mission in the way I want toimprove healthcare for
individuals living in thiscountry.
And so right now, It feels likethis is the icing on the cake,
but I have a lot of career leftto go.
So who knows where the next 15,20 years takes me.
(33:03):
Never could have predicted whereI am now.
So I certainly don't want to tryto predict where I'll be many
years from now.
SPEAKER_01 (33:10):
You said something that's so important.
You followed your personalmission.
And that is so important.
And I bet that's what jazzes youup and gets you going every day.
SPEAKER_03 (33:23):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (33:25):
You want to share with us today what your personal
mission is?
SPEAKER_03 (33:28):
Yeah.
I mean, my personal mission isto improve access to health and
health care for women.
SPEAKER_01 (33:33):
That's awesome.
That's really great.
SPEAKER_03 (33:35):
And I think it's so important.
And a lot of people say to me,well, why women?
Like, why not just improvingaccess to health and health care
for everyone?
And I'll just say, I mean,obviously I'm a woman, so it's
important to me from thatperspective, but there's so many
metrics and data points thatshow that when we can improve
(33:57):
access to health and healthcarefor women, we improve the health
and healthcare of entirefamilies.
And if we have to pick somewhereto start, I want to start with
the area that is going to leadto having influence with the
other areas.
And so it's not that I don'tcare about men's health or
children's health.
It is all related.
But moving forward on women'shealth, an area that has
(34:21):
typically been sort ofunder-researched, misunderstood,
is really important to me,especially in the current
environment where we're seeing alot of challenges to not only
women's ability to access healthcare, but also women's rights in
general.
SPEAKER_01 (34:39):
Well, I thank you for that.
SPEAKER_03 (34:42):
It's not easy.
I'll tell you that.
No, it's not easy.
But it's fun to be able to usethe skills I've gathered the
last 20 years to do things thatalign with that personal
mission.
UNKNOWN (34:59):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01 (35:00):
That's terrific.
SPEAKER_03 (35:02):
Yeah.
So one last question.
I know where we're sort of atour time, but what have you
learned from others and what areways we can learn from and work
together with other health lawattorneys?
SPEAKER_01 (35:16):
Well, I think, you know, I'll go, I have a lot I'd
want to say, but I'll go by thisfairly quickly.
And one of the things I'velearned is to listen more and
talk less in a meeting, uh, Youknow, in listening is hard and
you have to practice at it, butit's important to listen.
Integrity.
At the end of the day, you haveto follow your moral compass.
(35:39):
You have your mission.
And at the end of the day, youhave to do what's right based
upon what your moral compasssays.
You also have to be ready tomake hard decisions.
based upon the expertise and theexperience.
Then I also think it's soimportant.
You mentioned that we were bothat the American Health Law
(35:59):
Association meeting justrecently.
I looked around the room and I'mstill going to every session I
can go to because it's socritical to stay current.
And I learned something fromeveryone I meet and every person
I listen to.
It's kind of a personalchallenge.
But it's also that networking.
with other healthcare attorneys.
(36:21):
And it's so fascinating to workand be with someone like you,
Priya, because it's inspiringand you're making a difference
in the world and in the countryby pursuing your passion.
So what else have you learned?
SPEAKER_03 (36:36):
Well, thank you for saying that.
I joke around a lot that I'mjust a gal that works in my
apartment with my cat.
Sometimes it's hard to tell ifthe work is having an impact.
And I think you're right, it is.
But sometimes it's just nice tohear.
So thank you for saying
SPEAKER_01 (36:53):
that.
Well, I do enjoy your Instagramposts.
I do enjoy your LinkedIn posts,especially the Good News
Fridays.
SPEAKER_03 (37:02):
Wonderful, wonderful.
I think the only thing I wouldadd to what you have said, Lisa,
and you've captured a lot ofthese ideas throughout our
conversation is finding goodmentors and sponsors and
understanding how to utilizementors and sponsors throughout
your career to help you moveforward.
Now, mentors and sponsors arenot the same thing.
(37:23):
So I encourage you to startthere by learning the difference
between the two and how they canhelp.
I will say I've been lucky tohave access to incredible
incredible sponsors who have notonly been there to provide me
guidance when I needed it, butto open doors that I didn't even
realize existed to me in mycareer.
(37:44):
So in addition to all the greatinput that you had, I would just
add the need for those mentorsand sponsors.
And one last sort of flag isthat mentors and sponsors don't
have to be people who have moreexperience than you.
I would encourage folks to findintergenerational mentorships
and to learn from people whohave more experience and less
(38:04):
experience or the same level ofexperience, but across different
areas of the law or differentparts of the industry.
I think there's so much that canbe learned from everyone, as you
made the point in the sessionsthat you attended at annual
meeting, like there's so muchfor us to learn in healthcare
and about our personaldevelopment.
SPEAKER_01 (38:24):
You know, and it's so good because it's so
important to hear other people'sperspectives.
And very often I'll listen tosomeone who I disagree with just
because I want to understand.
And it makes me, it helps mycritical thinking skills.
Now you have to close your mouthand not argue with them.
UNKNOWN (38:43):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (38:43):
Well, and Lisa, I think that's so important given
this point of time that we'rein, right?
I think regardless of where youfall on the political or
ideological spectrum, it's veryclear that we have become a very
polarized society.
Right.
And there's a lot of we believein this way.
(39:03):
And so we exclude all the peopleor we cancel all the people who
believe differently than us.
And I think as health lawattorneys for our clients and
for the people that we representand work with, whatever
environment that may be, it'sreally important for us to be
the people that can listen,learn,
SPEAKER_02 (39:22):
listen.
SPEAKER_03 (39:23):
bridge the gaps between opposing perspectives,
connect dots where they need tobe connected, and really move us
towards consensus.
I mean, that's our role.
And I think it's important inour day jobs, but it's important
for everything in ourcommunities and society
SPEAKER_01 (39:41):
as well.
Exactly.
It's not comfortable, but it'simportant to be thoughtful.
SPEAKER_03 (39:47):
So
SPEAKER_01 (39:48):
very good point.
SPEAKER_03 (39:51):
Great.
So I think we wanted one morequestion.
I said the last one was the lastone, but I think we have time
for one more, which is that,what do you think are some of
the skills that are necessary tobe general counsel?
SPEAKER_01 (40:04):
Well, it's interesting, you know, that has
been my career path and it'sbeen a great path.
And, you know, it's, as Imentioned earlier, and I'll go
through these, it's, you know,the experience with the law.
issue spotting, but it's alsosenior leadership.
You know, I spent a lot of timewith American College of
Healthcare Executives.
I'm a fellow, and I'm so happynow that I'm a I think I've gone
(40:29):
to the next step, so I don'thave to pay dues anymore.
But I still get all thematerial, which I read.
You have to understand thebusiness.
And I know that, Priya, you'vebeen a speaker at the ACHE
conference.
So you appreciate the fact thatyou've got to stay current in
the industry and stay as currentas you can.
So I think it's in order to be ageneral counsel in a health care
(40:51):
organization, you have to knowthe business.
You have to be a senior leader.
And you also have to understandthe law.
Another piece is executivepresence.
And that is something that Ithink evolves over time because
people have to have confidencein you.
They have to trust you.
And here I sit still with ajacket on.
(41:12):
It's sort of my suit.
It's my armor.
And it's just what I do and howI do it.
So executive presence,expertise, and governance.
If you're going to be a generalcounsel, you have to know that
governance of the organization,you have to know how to make
that governance as nimble aspossible, but also as effective
as possible.
(41:33):
Delegation.
Boy, I talked earlier abouthaving the dream team.
You've got to be able todelegate and you can't do
everything yourself becausethere's so much on your plate.
So it's not only delegate withinthe organization, but delegate
outside the organization.
And that's where the networkingis so important.
So you know who in the outsidefirms, the law firms, whether it
(41:57):
be EBG, another big firm, whocan help manage a situation?
Who can you hire now?
I call it my lifeline, you know,can I use a lifeline?
We've talked about being acontinuous learner on multiple
topics.
And being a general counsel isnot for the faint of heart.
You're basically a generalcounsel 24 seven.
(42:20):
You have board reportingobligations.
You have obligations to thehealthcare organization.
You're part of a seniormanagement team.
So you have to be a part of thatteam, but you also have to focus
on critical and complex issues.
So I would venture to say, ifI'm working on an issue, I'm
also thinking about 10 otherissues.
Because very often I'd have toprocess.
(42:43):
And so it is a 24-7 job.
And then the last thing I wouldsay, you have to be humble.
You've got to know when you needto ask for help.
And it's critical to havetrusted sources that you can
brainstorm with.
And that was one of the issuesthat I struggled with, quite
frankly, when I was the chieflegal officer for the joint
(43:05):
commission, because I felt likeI couldn't share a lot of
information because of theprivilege, but I searched for
other outside attorneys that hadgeneral counsel experience and
that I could brainstorm with andsay, what would you do in this
situation?
Who might you use?
And that's where I created thisgeneral counsel services
(43:26):
practice at Epstein, Becker andGreen.
And it's really to assistgeneral counsels with issues and
still maintain theattorney-client privilege, that
safe space, so to speak, becausethe issues are complex and you
can save so much time if youcould take five or 10 minutes
and brainstorm it with someonewho has experience, has
(43:49):
expertise, and can help you movetowards a solution.
And it's the same issue withgovernance.
Governance issues can be verychallenging.
but they're also critical to thesuccess of the CEO and to the
organization.
So that's why as I move in mynext step of my career is to
really focus on generalcounsels, focus on giving back
(44:11):
to the health law community andfor all the wonderful things
that I've been able to touch onmy last 40 years.
So Priya, what was helpful toyou when you served as an
assistant general counsel and ashospital counsel?
SPEAKER_03 (44:26):
Yeah, well, Lisa, believe it or not, I wrote down
many of the same things that youjust covered.
So won't reiterate that, but Iwill say, this general counsel
practice group that you'recreating, I wish I had had
something like that when I wasat MedStar.
And I think having resourcesthat I could have tapped into
that could have helped not justwith the different areas of law
(44:50):
I was covering and the differentchallenges I was facing on a
day-to-day, but just to knowthat there was a community out
there of folks that were feelingsimilar things or going through
similar challenges as I wasfacing as that 33-year-old
attorney sitting by myself inoffice trying to advise two
hospitals.
So thank you so much forcreating that for other health
(45:12):
law attorneys.
I think it will be a reallygreat lifeline for those that
are aspiring to be generalcounsel or who are in general
counsel roles.
So I will turn it back to you toclose out our conversation.
SPEAKER_01 (45:27):
Well, I just want to say thank you to AHLA.
Thank you to Priya.
This has been a lot of funputting this podcast together,
but let's continue theconversation.
And I would challenge each ofyou that's listening to reach
out to other health lawattorneys and to think about
(45:48):
work, but also how do you followyour own personal mission
statement, as Priya hasindicated.
So Priya, what are your finalthoughts?
SPEAKER_03 (45:57):
No, I'm just thankful to you, Lisa, for
inviting me to be a part of thisconversation and to the AHLA for
covering a topic like this.
I think it's really easy forassociations to focus on
education that are specific toour actual areas of practice,
but it's really important tohave conversations like this
(46:18):
about our careers, ourprofessional development and
sort of where we can go in thefuture.
So very grateful to be part ofthis conversation and happy to
continue talking about bothtraditional career paths like
the one that you have taken orthose off the map nonlinear
(46:40):
paths like the one that I've hadin my career because both are so
important to moving the needleforward in health law.
SPEAKER_01 (46:48):
Great.
Thank you, Priya.
SPEAKER_03 (46:50):
Thank
SPEAKER_00 (46:56):
you, Lisa.
And stay updated on breakinghealthcare industry news from
the major media outlets withAHLA's Health Law Daily Podcast,
(47:16):
exclusively for AHLA Premiummembers.
To subscribe and add thisprivate podcast feed to your
podcast app, go toAmericanHealthLaw.org slash
Daily Podcast.
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