May 22, 2025 • 29 mins
Pancho Barnes was larger than life. Born at the turn of the century, she spent the next 75 years defying every societal norm she found stuffy, boring or just plain stupid. She rode horses and then flew planes in the movies. She raced airplanes and briefly held the women's airspeed record. She owned a notorious inn/restaurant/club/hotel/airport in the desert near what would become Edwards Air Force Base. The Happy Bottom Riding Club was populated by Pancho, her personality and famous people from Roy Rogers to Chuck Yeager. We're exploring all the excitement that was the life of Pancho Barnes.
Thanks to our guest in this episode:
- Lauren Kessler- Author, The Happy Bottom Riding Club: The Life and Times of Pancho Barnes
Find the transcript at here.
AirSpace is created by the Smithsonian's National Air and Space Museum with generous support from Lockheed Martin.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Emily (00:02):
Welcome to AirSpace from the Smithsonian's
National Air and Space Museum.
I'm Emily.
Matt (00:07):
And I'm Matt.
Pancho Barnes is a familiar figureto those who study the barnstorming
era of flight, or anyone who'sfamiliar with Edwards Air Force
Base in the 1940s and fifties.
But outside of that.
She's not as well known.
Emily (00:21):
Pancho was an air racer, stunt pilot, party instigator,
generous to a fault, larger thanlife character who lived far outside.
The norms for women ofher era and social class
Matt (00:33):
we're going through her life from indulgent childhood to Lonely
Desert Death today on AirSpacesponsored by Lockheed Martin.
Emily (00:45):
To help us understand Pancho's life, we talked to one of her biographers.
Lauren (00:50):
I am Lauren Kessler.
I live in the Pacific Northwest.
I am a writer, author of 15 books, one ofwhich is the biography of Pancho Barnes.
Matt (01:00):
So Pancho Barnes is an interesting character, right?
She was born right at the turnof the 20th century in 1901.
She wasn't actually born and given thename Pancho, which you might imagine.
She was actually Florence Leontine Lowe.
Her grandfather was an inventorand a balloonist who's credited
(01:22):
as something like the greatgrandfather of the Air Force.
Emily (01:25):
So if you're a balloon nerd, like we are wannabe balloon nerds.
Thadeus S. C. Lowe was one of thefirst balloonists in the Civil War,
and he would take his balloon up witha tether and he would telegraph the
Confederacy's movements to the Union Army.
And he liked to call himselfthe most shot at man in the war.
Matt (01:45):
By the time Florence was born, the low money was gone, but her mother's
family, the Dobbins were still very rich.
So she was raised in the lap of luxuryin San Marino, California, just outside
of Pasadena, where her family were partof the upper class that ruled society.
Lauren (02:04):
Actually, the thing that that really fascinated me about
Pancho was that given when she.
Was born the, the culture in which she wasborn, especially the the female culture
in which she was born, the economicclass in which she was born, that the
expectation for her life was so differentthan how she made her life become.
(02:30):
So she was, um, born into wealth,Pasadena, California Wealth, and she
was, she was destined, I think to havethat kind of, um, privileged protected.
Female existence.
Her, her grandfather was a greatadventurer and uh, an aviator and they
(02:55):
had a very close relationship at thebeginning, and I think that, that, that
ignited absolutely ignited her loveof being in the air and taking risks.
Emily (03:05):
So, Thaddeus, I think we can blame Thaddeus.
Matt for Pancho's sense of adventure,her grandfather really kind of instilled
that sense of adventure into Pancho andhe was the one that took her to her very
first air show where she was introducedto planes for the very first time in 1910.
Matt (03:23):
And you know, we've talked about these early days of, of flight
and how adventurous they were.
If you were going to an air show, youwere seeing people in small planes doing
really cool acrobatic things, right?
Emily (03:35):
Totally.
And her grandfather, Thaddeus,and to some extent, her father
really treated Florence.
Soon to be Pancho likethe son in the family.
Pancho did have an older brother,but he was sickly and he died of
leukemia when Pancho was just 12.
And I think this is really interestingthe way this kind of era really
(03:55):
likes to ensure gender roles areupheld to a certain point, right?
When kids are really little,it doesn't matter nearly as
much as when they get older.
Matt (04:05):
Yeah.
She was taught to ride horses very young.
She was taught to shoot.
She was allowed to ride and shoot allover her parents and grandparents'
estates, and she basically did what shewanted when she wanted to, and was cared
for by servants and nannies and neverhad to really learn anything domestic.
Her education began with private tutors.
(04:27):
She spent some time at the localpublic school, but after her
brother died, her mother realizedshe would need more handling.
Lauren (04:34):
She was sent away and, and went through a few private schools.
The curriculum at those schools forgirls would certainly not have been
anything, um, that would prepare one to,um, get in an airplane or, or understand
flight or physics or anything like that.
(04:54):
It was leading a quiet domesticlife and taking care of a family.
She misbehaved, I mean, she was sort of.
Genetically, I don't know, uh, destinedto misbehave from an early age.
And so she did kind of get kicked outfor pranks that I don't know that we
(05:15):
would kick out anybody these days.
But she, she didn't fit into theprivate school, quiet girl, well
dressed niche that her parents and hersociety would want her to also note
that, um, they married her off at 18.
To, um, a minister,
(05:36):
which anybody who reads aboutor knows about Pancho's life
would think is beyond ironic.
Emily (05:43):
His name was C. Rankin Barnes and he was her mother's choice.
And though Florence had little interestin being society's idea of a good
wife, she did wanna please her mother.
And while Barnes wasn't rich,he was respectable and he was.
A calming influence and Florence'smother really hoped that that
would rub off on her daughter.
Matt (06:02):
Well, it didn't.
Right.
Surprise,
Emily (06:04):
surprise.
You all saw that plot twist coming.
Matt (06:06):
Yeah.
Right.
That's not a surprise.
Spoiler, not spoiler.
Whatever.
Following the wedding, Florencegot pregnant on their honeymoon.
They returned to the rectory whereshe found life stifling, lacking in
the comforts and the servants thatshe was used to, and also having known
of the freedoms that she was used to.
(06:26):
So.
She decided to go out and spend hertime the way that she always had with
the horses on her parents' estate.
So she kind of left the rectory,went back to the horses.
Emily (06:38):
So after her son Billy was born, Florence tried to play the
part of the wife and mother, but.
It just not her vibe.
Right?
And she discovered this new big adventurethat she was looking for in Hollywood.
Matt (06:51):
She started hanging around movie sets as you do, and found out that her
well-trained horses and skillful ridingmeant that she was welcome and paid.
This was the era of thehorse opera, the Western.
So horses were playing apretty big role in cinema.
Emily (07:08):
Working in Hollywood meant that.
Pancho had her own money from whichshe was able to pay for a nanny and
move out of her husband's house.
Basically allowing her todo whatever she wanted.
And so she would never again live withBarnes, her husband, though they would
spark a sort of odd kind of distantfriendship for many years after that.
(07:28):
And being married, but not havingto take care of a wife seemed to
suit her husband Barnes, just fine.
Matt (07:34):
And this is in many ways where the adventure of Pancho Barnes begins, right?
Because now that she's free from herhusband, she can actually become.
Pancho.
So she spends a lot of time goingon whatever adventure is sort of in
front of her at that moment, includingdressing as a man and signing on as
a sailor on a Mexican banana boat,which wasn't in fact really a banana
(07:58):
boat, but a gun running boat that wasbringing guns to Mexico, which was in
the midst of a civil war at the time.
So, you know, not just small adventures.
Like a road trip across America,but like running guns to
Mexico type of adventure here.
These are epics.
Eventually she had to leave the shipwith one of her friends and find her
(08:19):
way back to California over land,
Lauren (08:21):
and according to her, traversed the width of Mexico from the uh,
Atlantic to the Gulf of Mexico, mostof the times on the back of a donkey.
So according to her, this guy friendsaid, you look just like Sancho Panza.
(08:42):
Except for he mispronouncedit and said Pancho Sanchez.
So Pancho became her adopted namefrom that time, F. F forever.
She never really calledherself Florence again.
Emily (08:53):
And this is the beginning of Pancho Barnes, which I love this story
because she was already on her way tobecoming Pancho, but like this is kind
of where that whole persona is born.
So I really love this story.
And of course, she was onto her nextadventure off of a boat, into the air.
Horses aren't an inexpensive hobby.
Pancho has expensive taste, and when hermother dies in 1923, Pancho was left as
(09:18):
the heir and inherits an awful lot ofmoney and a whole bunch of real estate.
And so now that she's really got allthis extra money and she's looking yet
again for a new adventure, Pancho followsa cousin who was interested in taking
flying lessons at a local airstrip,and she took one look at that airplane
and decided she had to do it too.
(09:38):
And the
Lauren (09:39):
first time that she was taken up, the pilot in question, did all
kinds of moves to make her sick.
Like throw up sick, uh, whateveryou would do, I would be, I'm sick,
even just thinking about the barrelrolls and all this kind of stuff.
And she, you know, just according toher, just loved it and was, you know,
(10:02):
enjoying herself and laughing andproved herself in that moment to this
cantankerous curmudgeonly pilot whosaid, sure, now I'll give you lessons.
Matt (10:13):
But as we said, you know, she has the money.
So once she actually takes thelessons, she spends some of her
inheritance on one plane, thenanother plane, and then another.
And you know, pretty clearlyshe is hooked on aviation.
Emily (10:28):
And this is kind of a brilliant time to be getting hooked
into aviation because just likeshe used her expertise in horses.
And riding to get involved in Hollywood.
She then takes this new skill flyinginto Hollywood and really leverages
her connections there and her interestin being part of the silver screens
world to get jobs flying in the movies.
(10:52):
She also saw firsthand thedangerous conditions and the.
Miserably low pay that her and herfellow pilots were receiving as
part of this really dangerous work.
And so she founded the Associationof Motion Picture Pilots, which is
the first stunt pilots union in 1930.
Matt (11:08):
And outside of the movie work, she was also flying in races.
At this time, she was amember of the 90 nines.
We've talked about them beforeon this show, and she flew in
the 1929 Women's Air Derby, whichwas the first of those derbies.
She crashed out early in that race, butreturned in 1930 to win the whole thing.
(11:29):
She also set the women's air speedrecord in 1930, taking that from.
Amelia Earhart, America's sweetheart,
Emily (11:36):
and at this time she was also sponsored by an oil company and
making money test flying airplanes forvarious companies, mostly Lockheed.
The manufacturers got the bestof both worlds with her, a highly
competent and accomplished pilot, anda woman who would shame men who were
afraid to fly by her mere presence.
I love this part of the story, Matt.
(11:57):
I love this.
I love this.
Hey guys, if she can doit, let's get Come on.
Come on.
Matt (12:04):
And, and we know that this was kind of a tactic at the time.
Margaret Weitekamp has a chapterabout this in her book, right?
Stuff Wrong Sex, right?
If you can get a woman to fly an airplanethat men are afraid to fly 'cause they
think it's a death trap, then it kindof makes them feel ashamed for being
afraid to fly the thing they did.
The same thing with the B 29.
(12:25):
If a woman can fly it, thenwhat are you so scared of?
It's totally sexist, but it was greatpropaganda to get men to fly these
planes that were in fact dangerous.
But you know, these skilledwomen pilots could pull it off.
Emily (12:39):
I just, I just envision Pancho Barnes just like showing
up to work one day, like laughingall the way to the airplane.
Mm-hmm.
Because she's just smug and brave andis like, what's the big deal boys?
Like, let's get it together.
Like, let's get it done.
Matt (12:54):
So, you know, she's really enjoying flying.
She's spending all themoney that she'd inherited.
Buying planes and throwing moreor less constant parties for her
aviation and Hollywood friendson her several properties.
She was kind of the great Gatsbyof the aviation world in a sense.
Here she's generous to a fault and wouldfeed water and put up just about anyone
(13:17):
who she liked and considered a friend.
Emily (13:21):
But when the depression hit Pancho's free spending ways
started to become a strain.
She was out of money.
She was forced to sell most of herproperties, and she decided to move to
the desert, which I can't say I blame her.
I really like the desert.
Matt (13:34):
I like that idea.
Yeah.
Emily (13:35):
Although you're from the desert, so I can see why
you might be nostalgic for it.
Matt (13:39):
I am.
Yeah.
Lauren (13:40):
So she sold those properties probably at a loss that, and
these are the properties thatare part of her inheritance,
and that was what funded this.
I was, I'm going to say God forsakenchunk of land out in the Mojave Desert.
Matt (13:55):
So it wasn't that she was moving somewhere completely unknown to her.
She had actually done a lot of flyingover the Mojave Desert and had seen from
the air, a dry lake that looked likethe perfect place to set up an airstrip.
So that's what she did.
In 1935, she bought an alfalfa farmin Muroc, California and established
(14:16):
a ranch and an airstrip there.
Emily (14:18):
So over the next six years, Pancho raised horses,
obviously dogs, pigs, and cows.
She built buildings, alienated herneighbors, and built Rancho Oro Verde.
The guest ranch and restaurantwas popular with Pancho's
Aviation and Hollywood friends.
Lauren (14:33):
She had an airstrip, so her Hollywood friends and her,
uh, flying friends could fly in.
And then there was a restaurantand she had some girls there who.
Were offering more than food.
It was called the HappyBottom Riding Club.
Riding as in horse and the happy bottompart you would think would be, you
(14:57):
know, some sort of a sexual reference.
And maybe it was for her, adouble entendre, I don't know.
But it was explained as whenyou rode one of her horses,
you, you got a happy bottom.
Matt (15:09):
And the Happy Bottom Riding Club was also very popular with the
servicemen at nearby Muroc Army airfield.
There was literally like nothingelse around for the Army flyers
to do, and Muroc itself was justtents and an airstrip in those days.
So the men spent a lotof their time at Panchos.
She fed them.
(15:29):
Got them drunk and rented themhorses to go riding in the desert.
Hopefully not when they're drunk,but you know, the drinking maybe
came after the horseback riding.
Emily (15:38):
We can hope, man.
Yeah.
Slowly Pancho's place grewand so did the airfield.
The army hired her to haul away theirgarbage, which she fed to her pigs.
We love a reduced, reuse,recycle moment and also provide
milk and meat to the base.
She was friends with many of the flyersand the commanders and was very popular.
And then Pearl Harbor happenedand the airfield got very busy.
Matt (16:01):
So the busyness of the war to come brought Pancho a lot of business.
By 1941, Pancho had developed herland into a combination airport in
club, restaurant, and ranch, andthe many, many trainees that passed
in and out of Muroc kept businesssteady for Pancho during the war.
Emily (16:22):
But this is a theme.
Pancho was very bad with money andconstantly just ahead of her bills.
She had also gotten divorced in the laterwar years, and she would marry and divorce
three other men throughout her life.
By the end of the war, Muroc ArmyAirfield was a sprawling hub of army
flying activity, and in addition to basicflight training and bombing, the base
(16:43):
was also home to a top secret rocketplane development and testing program.
So then this is where we getto talk about The Right Stuff.
Matt (16:51):
That's right.
Yeah.
So if you've seen themovie, The Right Stuff,
Emily (16:55):
I've seen it, Matt.
Matt (16:56):
Then this is where things start to get familiar for you because
after the war, the club and the otherbusiness thrived and it was thriving
thanks to test pilots, the ones thatare featured in the right stuff.
And in 1946, the base wastransferred to the brand new Air
Force and throughout the forties andfifties, many records were broken.
(17:17):
And new planes were tested andPancho's was the center of celebration
for all of the test pilots.
Emily (17:25):
So the movie, the Right stuff is when I first met Pancho
Barnes, but I didn't know that Iwas meeting Pancho Barnes until we
did our episode on the 90 nines.
So I'd known about PanchoBarnes a long time.
I just, I didn't know that.
I knew Pancho Barnes.
Matt (17:38):
Mm-hmm.
Emily (17:39):
Test piloting has to be an incredibly stressful, but also like
adrenaline pumping kind of job.
And so they used Panchos to blow offsteam before and after test flights or
to celebrate and mourn the lives of.
And to celebrate or mourn the lives ofmany test pilots that quote unquote,
augered in to the hard ground of thedesert and augered in here means maybe
(18:03):
what you think it might mean, whichis essentially crashing and dying.
Like we said, test piloting isan incredibly dangerous job.
And so having a community space likethis where test pilots can congregate
and pay tribute to their colleagues wasa really valuable and important role
(18:23):
that the Happy Bottom Riding Club played.
Matt (18:26):
One pilot who was a lifelong friend of Pancho's was Chuck Yeager, who in
1947 broke the sound barrier, but thenight before that history making flight.
Chuck and his wife wereenjoying Pancho's hospitality.
Lauren (18:39):
The night before he was going to go up in the airplane to
try and break the sound barrier.
He was on one of Pancho's horsesand he might have been inebriated
a little bit, or maybe he justis not a good horseback rider.
I don't know.
But the horse collided with a fence.
On the way back to the corral and Chuckbroke one of his ribs and he did not want
(19:03):
to tell, he didn't wanna tell anybodybecause that would've, uh, grounded him.
So he had maybe a private doctor ora friend or somebody tape him up.
And this is the story he tells and he getsin the plane and he can't actually torque
his body to close the door of the plane.
So he has a little stick that hebrings with him and closes it up.
(19:26):
And, uh, so with his brokenrib, gotten on a horse.
Given to him, rented tohim by Pancho Barnes.
He breaks the sound barrier
Emily (19:35):
the way Chuck tells it.
He and his wife were racing back tothe barn and he didn't see the gate
was closed until it was too late.
It was a local veterinarianwho taped up his ribs.
I mean, ribs are ribs, right?
Matt?
Matt (19:46):
Sure.
Why not?
So this was all during the GoldenEra for the Happy Bottom Riding Club.
But then in the late 1940s, anew commander was determined to
bring the newly renamed EdwardsAir Force base into military
decorum and efficiency discipline.
Right?
He detested Pancho andthe feeling was mutual.
(20:08):
It took him a few years.
But the days of the by the seat of yourpants test pilots and the club where
they felt at home were fast disappearing.
Also, I mean, we could say there'sa difference in the culture of test
pilots at this time, too, which isthat at the, in the days of Chuck
Yeager test pilots were cowboys, right?
(20:28):
They weren't necessarily peoplewho were trained in engineering.
They were flying the planes to makesure that they, you know, worked
and to look for problems later.
The test pilots that, especially the onesthat kind of go on to become astronauts,
this new generation of test pilots, mostof them have backgrounds in engineering.
(20:49):
They're flying much more sophisticatedairplanes where you have to have that
kind of expertise to troubleshootwhat's happening in the plane.
So the culture of thetest pilots change too.
Not that they don't still like todrink and have a good time, but
they're not quite the same as thecowboys of the Chuck Yeager days.
Emily (21:06):
So even though Edwards Air Force Base was huge at this time,
the Air Force was looking to expand.
Even more and hoping to build a very longrunway for experimental nuclear planes
that went right through Pancho's Land
Matt (21:21):
and in the early 1950s, ranch after ranch around Pancho's was being bought up
by the government through eminent domain.
Eventually, the government came toher with an offer, and for her 360
mostly developed acres with water andbuildings, they offered her $205,000.
Which she felt was insulting.
Emily (21:42):
I mean, I can kind of, I see the point though, right Matt?
Like if somebody said 360acres, that's a lot of land and.
If you think about everything thathad built there, this wasn't, this
wasn't 360 acres of, of desert.
This was 360 developed acres, whichmeans it's not just about the land,
it's about everything that's on theland and all the investments she's made.
Lauren (22:03):
But she was a major thorn in their side.
I mean, bigger than a thorn,whatever is, whatever is a. A big
thing in their side and they couldnot wait for her to, um, to leave.
Matt (22:16):
Yeah.
And eminent domain allows the governmentto buy the property, and the property
owner really has to go along withit, but they're also supposed to get
a fair market value for that land.
Emily (22:29):
So Pancho sued and she argued that her land was much more.
Valuable than what the governmentwas offering and that the government
was ruining her business andher livelihood and that she
should be compensated for that.
But while waiting for the courts,several of her buildings were
lost in a fire of unknown origin.
Signs were pointing to arson, butit was never fully determined.
(22:50):
And if it had been arson.
There was no signs pointingto a particular culprit.
Lauren (22:55):
You can see where some of the buildings were.
There's some foundation there and there'sa little bit of rubble every once you can
see that something was there, but prettymuch everything burned and that was it.
I mean, first of all, she couldn'trebuild because there was no money,
and also she couldn't rebuild becausethe Air Force wanted to take over the
(23:18):
land, but she, she wanted to try again.
And she had a plan that was some,you know, sort of a harebrained plan.
Just do do some other kind of, notHappy Bottom Riding Club, but some other
kind of horse thing someplace else.
Matt (23:34):
And so Pancho got some money against the initial government offer
and was forced to leave the land.
She moved all of her animals andher planes and her fourth husband
to an even more desolate stretchof desert called Gypsy Springs.
Emily (23:49):
Eventually, through court cases, Pancho got more than $400,000
from the government for her land.
In 1956, she used that money to buymore land in and around Gypsy Springs
and farm equipment and airplanes.
And horses to put on it.
Matt (24:05):
But unfortunately, Gypsy Springs was not a lot like Muroc.
She had no farm.
The land wasn't fertile, and shehad nowhere to stable her horses
and nothing to feed them with.
She no longer had contractswith the military and she had
no customers in the form of.
Board service members, anddespite all her generosity, she
(24:27):
had no friends at this point.
Emily (24:28):
She was also deeply unwell.
She had had high blood pressure mostof her life, and now she had breast
cancer, which had been treated.
Then she had a thyroid problem, whichyou could eventually treat through
medication, and she had been livinglarge and rough her whole life.
Matt (24:42):
So she had had all these issues.
A lot of them had been treated,but now she's living in a shack.
That has no running water.
She has no domestic skills to feedherself or keep a place clean.
And you know, she was also lackingthe social life that she was used to.
There was hardly anyone around andPancho much preferred the company of
(25:03):
others, so this was not ideal for her.
Now, eventually peopledid come and find her.
She was rediscovered by aviationenthusiasts around 1970.
Um, many of the folks who found her thenthought that she had already died, but
in fact she was still alive and she waswelcomed into their club meetings and
(25:24):
they loved hearing her tell her stories.
Despite everything, Panchoremained a real character all
the way up until the end, right?
Her stories were outrageous.
She liked to shock people.
She, you know, was just like the lifeof any room that she walked into, but
eventually she died of a heart attackthat maybe was due to complications
(25:47):
from breast cancer in 1975, and shewas not found for at least a week.
Lauren (25:54):
She moved into a little house eventually.
That is the alpha and Omega of her life.
When you think of the, thePasadena mansion she was born into
and the shack that she died in.
Uh, that, that's a narrative arc for you.
And in between that areall kinds of ups and downs.
(26:18):
It's not a, it's not a pure arc.
There's lots of, of valleys andpeaks, many valleys and peaks
in that life, but that's, that'sthe beginning and the end of it.
Matt (26:29):
And the few friends that had helped her out in those last years of her life
did get permission to fly over and spreadher ashes at the ruins of her old club.
Emily (26:39):
You know, this kind of feels like a really sad ending to
a really big story, Matt, but Idon't know if I think that it is,
Matt (26:47):
I mean, every story has to end right?
Emily (26:49):
Every story has to end.
But I think she's got a really stronglegacy and I think the story that
we're telling is the reason thathopefully people can understand
why she's still an enduring figure.
Matt (27:00):
Yeah, there's definitely a lot of legacy here.
And you know, one of the things about.
Pancho is that the way we've learnedabout her has been through sort of
stories about test pilots who wentto her bars or you know, through
her inclusion in The Right Stuff.
And also there's a Pancho'sbar in Captain Marvel.
But in those stories, she's kindof on the periphery of the main
(27:24):
story, and she deserves to bethe center of the story, right?
Definitely the center of her own story.
You know, it's very fitting that there'snow a Pancho Barnes Day celebration on the
site of the old Happy Bottom Riding Club.
It's a barbecue.
Began in the 1980s with, you know,drinking and dancing that goes
(27:47):
on long into the night, right?
The very fitting sort of tributeto this woman who herself would've.
Drank and danced all through the night andthen probably gone for a horseback ride.
Emily (27:58):
Matt, we should put that on our bucket list along with the hot
air balloons in um, New Mexico.
But I do think that if you haveany question about what cements her
legacy, I think in addition to folksreally continuing to celebrate.
Her life, the way she lived her life.
I think it's also really poignantto remember that there is now a room
at the Officer's Club at EdwardsAir Force Base that bears her name.
(28:22):
So even after all of that animosity andall of those challenges fighting over
her land with the Air Force, somebody atthat Air Force base still acknowledges
and recognizes her place in history.
Matt (28:37):
AirSpace is from the National Air and Space Museum.
It's produced by Jennifer Weingartand mixed by Tarek Fouda, hosted
by Dr. Emily Martin and me.
Dr. Matt Shindell.
Our managing producer is Erika Novak.
Our production coordinator isSofia Soto Sugar, and our social
media manager is Amy Stamm.
A big thank you to our guest in thisepisode, biographer Lauren Kessler.
(29:00):
Her book, the Happy Bottom RidingClub: the Life and Times of Pancho
Barnes was invaluable for this episode.
Also, the PBS documentary, theLegend of Pancho Barnes and
the Happy Bottom Riding Club.
Additional thanks to Dorothy Cochraneat the National Air and Space
Museum for help with research andresources for additional content.
Photos and more Follow AirSpacePod on Instagram and X or sign
(29:25):
up for our monthly newsletterusing the link in the show notes.
AirSpace is sponsored by LockheedMartin and distributed by PRX.
Welcome to AirSpace from the Smithsonian's
National Air and Space Museum.
I'm Emily.
Matt (00:07):
And I'm Matt.
Pancho Barnes is a familiar figureto those who study the barnstorming
era of flight, or anyone who'sfamiliar with Edwards Air Force
Base in the 1940s and fifties.
But outside of that.
She's not as well known.
Emily (00:21):
Pancho was an air racer, stunt pilot, party instigator,
generous to a fault, larger thanlife character who lived far outside.
The norms for women ofher era and social class
Matt (00:33):
we're going through her life from indulgent childhood to Lonely
Desert Death today on AirSpacesponsored by Lockheed Martin.
Emily (00:45):
To help us understand Pancho's life, we talked to one of her biographers.
Lauren (00:50):
I am Lauren Kessler.
I live in the Pacific Northwest.
I am a writer, author of 15 books, one ofwhich is the biography of Pancho Barnes.
Matt (01:00):
So Pancho Barnes is an interesting character, right?
She was born right at the turnof the 20th century in 1901.
She wasn't actually born and given thename Pancho, which you might imagine.
She was actually Florence Leontine Lowe.
Her grandfather was an inventorand a balloonist who's credited
(01:22):
as something like the greatgrandfather of the Air Force.
Emily (01:25):
So if you're a balloon nerd, like we are wannabe balloon nerds.
Thadeus S. C. Lowe was one of thefirst balloonists in the Civil War,
and he would take his balloon up witha tether and he would telegraph the
Confederacy's movements to the Union Army.
And he liked to call himselfthe most shot at man in the war.
Matt (01:45):
By the time Florence was born, the low money was gone, but her mother's
family, the Dobbins were still very rich.
So she was raised in the lap of luxuryin San Marino, California, just outside
of Pasadena, where her family were partof the upper class that ruled society.
Lauren (02:04):
Actually, the thing that that really fascinated me about
Pancho was that given when she.
Was born the, the culture in which she wasborn, especially the the female culture
in which she was born, the economicclass in which she was born, that the
expectation for her life was so differentthan how she made her life become.
(02:30):
So she was, um, born into wealth,Pasadena, California Wealth, and she
was, she was destined, I think to havethat kind of, um, privileged protected.
Female existence.
Her, her grandfather was a greatadventurer and uh, an aviator and they
(02:55):
had a very close relationship at thebeginning, and I think that, that, that
ignited absolutely ignited her loveof being in the air and taking risks.
Emily (03:05):
So, Thaddeus, I think we can blame Thaddeus.
Matt for Pancho's sense of adventure,her grandfather really kind of instilled
that sense of adventure into Pancho andhe was the one that took her to her very
first air show where she was introducedto planes for the very first time in 1910.
Matt (03:23):
And you know, we've talked about these early days of, of flight
and how adventurous they were.
If you were going to an air show, youwere seeing people in small planes doing
really cool acrobatic things, right?
Emily (03:35):
Totally.
And her grandfather, Thaddeus,and to some extent, her father
really treated Florence.
Soon to be Pancho likethe son in the family.
Pancho did have an older brother,but he was sickly and he died of
leukemia when Pancho was just 12.
And I think this is really interestingthe way this kind of era really
(03:55):
likes to ensure gender roles areupheld to a certain point, right?
When kids are really little,it doesn't matter nearly as
much as when they get older.
Matt (04:05):
Yeah.
She was taught to ride horses very young.
She was taught to shoot.
She was allowed to ride and shoot allover her parents and grandparents'
estates, and she basically did what shewanted when she wanted to, and was cared
for by servants and nannies and neverhad to really learn anything domestic.
Her education began with private tutors.
(04:27):
She spent some time at the localpublic school, but after her
brother died, her mother realizedshe would need more handling.
Lauren (04:34):
She was sent away and, and went through a few private schools.
The curriculum at those schools forgirls would certainly not have been
anything, um, that would prepare one to,um, get in an airplane or, or understand
flight or physics or anything like that.
(04:54):
It was leading a quiet domesticlife and taking care of a family.
She misbehaved, I mean, she was sort of.
Genetically, I don't know, uh, destinedto misbehave from an early age.
And so she did kind of get kicked outfor pranks that I don't know that we
(05:15):
would kick out anybody these days.
But she, she didn't fit into theprivate school, quiet girl, well
dressed niche that her parents and hersociety would want her to also note
that, um, they married her off at 18.
To, um, a minister,
(05:36):
which anybody who reads aboutor knows about Pancho's life
would think is beyond ironic.
Emily (05:43):
His name was C. Rankin Barnes and he was her mother's choice.
And though Florence had little interestin being society's idea of a good
wife, she did wanna please her mother.
And while Barnes wasn't rich,he was respectable and he was.
A calming influence and Florence'smother really hoped that that
would rub off on her daughter.
Matt (06:02):
Well, it didn't.
Right.
Surprise,
Emily (06:04):
surprise.
You all saw that plot twist coming.
Matt (06:06):
Yeah.
Right.
That's not a surprise.
Spoiler, not spoiler.
Whatever.
Following the wedding, Florencegot pregnant on their honeymoon.
They returned to the rectory whereshe found life stifling, lacking in
the comforts and the servants thatshe was used to, and also having known
of the freedoms that she was used to.
(06:26):
So.
She decided to go out and spend hertime the way that she always had with
the horses on her parents' estate.
So she kind of left the rectory,went back to the horses.
Emily (06:38):
So after her son Billy was born, Florence tried to play the
part of the wife and mother, but.
It just not her vibe.
Right?
And she discovered this new big adventurethat she was looking for in Hollywood.
Matt (06:51):
She started hanging around movie sets as you do, and found out that her
well-trained horses and skillful ridingmeant that she was welcome and paid.
This was the era of thehorse opera, the Western.
So horses were playing apretty big role in cinema.
Emily (07:08):
Working in Hollywood meant that.
Pancho had her own money from whichshe was able to pay for a nanny and
move out of her husband's house.
Basically allowing her todo whatever she wanted.
And so she would never again live withBarnes, her husband, though they would
spark a sort of odd kind of distantfriendship for many years after that.
(07:28):
And being married, but not havingto take care of a wife seemed to
suit her husband Barnes, just fine.
Matt (07:34):
And this is in many ways where the adventure of Pancho Barnes begins, right?
Because now that she's free from herhusband, she can actually become.
Pancho.
So she spends a lot of time goingon whatever adventure is sort of in
front of her at that moment, includingdressing as a man and signing on as
a sailor on a Mexican banana boat,which wasn't in fact really a banana
(07:58):
boat, but a gun running boat that wasbringing guns to Mexico, which was in
the midst of a civil war at the time.
So, you know, not just small adventures.
Like a road trip across America,but like running guns to
Mexico type of adventure here.
These are epics.
Eventually she had to leave the shipwith one of her friends and find her
(08:19):
way back to California over land,
Lauren (08:21):
and according to her, traversed the width of Mexico from the uh,
Atlantic to the Gulf of Mexico, mostof the times on the back of a donkey.
So according to her, this guy friendsaid, you look just like Sancho Panza.
(08:42):
Except for he mispronouncedit and said Pancho Sanchez.
So Pancho became her adopted namefrom that time, F. F forever.
She never really calledherself Florence again.
Emily (08:53):
And this is the beginning of Pancho Barnes, which I love this story
because she was already on her way tobecoming Pancho, but like this is kind
of where that whole persona is born.
So I really love this story.
And of course, she was onto her nextadventure off of a boat, into the air.
Horses aren't an inexpensive hobby.
Pancho has expensive taste, and when hermother dies in 1923, Pancho was left as
(09:18):
the heir and inherits an awful lot ofmoney and a whole bunch of real estate.
And so now that she's really got allthis extra money and she's looking yet
again for a new adventure, Pancho followsa cousin who was interested in taking
flying lessons at a local airstrip,and she took one look at that airplane
and decided she had to do it too.
(09:38):
And the
Lauren (09:39):
first time that she was taken up, the pilot in question, did all
kinds of moves to make her sick.
Like throw up sick, uh, whateveryou would do, I would be, I'm sick,
even just thinking about the barrelrolls and all this kind of stuff.
And she, you know, just according toher, just loved it and was, you know,
(10:02):
enjoying herself and laughing andproved herself in that moment to this
cantankerous curmudgeonly pilot whosaid, sure, now I'll give you lessons.
Matt (10:13):
But as we said, you know, she has the money.
So once she actually takes thelessons, she spends some of her
inheritance on one plane, thenanother plane, and then another.
And you know, pretty clearlyshe is hooked on aviation.
Emily (10:28):
And this is kind of a brilliant time to be getting hooked
into aviation because just likeshe used her expertise in horses.
And riding to get involved in Hollywood.
She then takes this new skill flyinginto Hollywood and really leverages
her connections there and her interestin being part of the silver screens
world to get jobs flying in the movies.
(10:52):
She also saw firsthand thedangerous conditions and the.
Miserably low pay that her and herfellow pilots were receiving as
part of this really dangerous work.
And so she founded the Associationof Motion Picture Pilots, which is
the first stunt pilots union in 1930.
Matt (11:08):
And outside of the movie work, she was also flying in races.
At this time, she was amember of the 90 nines.
We've talked about them beforeon this show, and she flew in
the 1929 Women's Air Derby, whichwas the first of those derbies.
She crashed out early in that race, butreturned in 1930 to win the whole thing.
(11:29):
She also set the women's air speedrecord in 1930, taking that from.
Amelia Earhart, America's sweetheart,
Emily (11:36):
and at this time she was also sponsored by an oil company and
making money test flying airplanes forvarious companies, mostly Lockheed.
The manufacturers got the bestof both worlds with her, a highly
competent and accomplished pilot, anda woman who would shame men who were
afraid to fly by her mere presence.
I love this part of the story, Matt.
(11:57):
I love this.
I love this.
Hey guys, if she can doit, let's get Come on.
Come on.
Matt (12:04):
And, and we know that this was kind of a tactic at the time.
Margaret Weitekamp has a chapterabout this in her book, right?
Stuff Wrong Sex, right?
If you can get a woman to fly an airplanethat men are afraid to fly 'cause they
think it's a death trap, then it kindof makes them feel ashamed for being
afraid to fly the thing they did.
The same thing with the B 29.
(12:25):
If a woman can fly it, thenwhat are you so scared of?
It's totally sexist, but it was greatpropaganda to get men to fly these
planes that were in fact dangerous.
But you know, these skilledwomen pilots could pull it off.
Emily (12:39):
I just, I just envision Pancho Barnes just like showing
up to work one day, like laughingall the way to the airplane.
Mm-hmm.
Because she's just smug and brave andis like, what's the big deal boys?
Like, let's get it together.
Like, let's get it done.
Matt (12:54):
So, you know, she's really enjoying flying.
She's spending all themoney that she'd inherited.
Buying planes and throwing moreor less constant parties for her
aviation and Hollywood friendson her several properties.
She was kind of the great Gatsbyof the aviation world in a sense.
Here she's generous to a fault and wouldfeed water and put up just about anyone
(13:17):
who she liked and considered a friend.
Emily (13:21):
But when the depression hit Pancho's free spending ways
started to become a strain.
She was out of money.
She was forced to sell most of herproperties, and she decided to move to
the desert, which I can't say I blame her.
I really like the desert.
Matt (13:34):
I like that idea.
Yeah.
Emily (13:35):
Although you're from the desert, so I can see why
you might be nostalgic for it.
Matt (13:39):
I am.
Yeah.
Lauren (13:40):
So she sold those properties probably at a loss that, and
these are the properties thatare part of her inheritance,
and that was what funded this.
I was, I'm going to say God forsakenchunk of land out in the Mojave Desert.
Matt (13:55):
So it wasn't that she was moving somewhere completely unknown to her.
She had actually done a lot of flyingover the Mojave Desert and had seen from
the air, a dry lake that looked likethe perfect place to set up an airstrip.
So that's what she did.
In 1935, she bought an alfalfa farmin Muroc, California and established
(14:16):
a ranch and an airstrip there.
Emily (14:18):
So over the next six years, Pancho raised horses,
obviously dogs, pigs, and cows.
She built buildings, alienated herneighbors, and built Rancho Oro Verde.
The guest ranch and restaurantwas popular with Pancho's
Aviation and Hollywood friends.
Lauren (14:33):
She had an airstrip, so her Hollywood friends and her,
uh, flying friends could fly in.
And then there was a restaurantand she had some girls there who.
Were offering more than food.
It was called the HappyBottom Riding Club.
Riding as in horse and the happy bottompart you would think would be, you
(14:57):
know, some sort of a sexual reference.
And maybe it was for her, adouble entendre, I don't know.
But it was explained as whenyou rode one of her horses,
you, you got a happy bottom.
Matt (15:09):
And the Happy Bottom Riding Club was also very popular with the
servicemen at nearby Muroc Army airfield.
There was literally like nothingelse around for the Army flyers
to do, and Muroc itself was justtents and an airstrip in those days.
So the men spent a lotof their time at Panchos.
She fed them.
(15:29):
Got them drunk and rented themhorses to go riding in the desert.
Hopefully not when they're drunk,but you know, the drinking maybe
came after the horseback riding.
Emily (15:38):
We can hope, man.
Yeah.
Slowly Pancho's place grewand so did the airfield.
The army hired her to haul away theirgarbage, which she fed to her pigs.
We love a reduced, reuse,recycle moment and also provide
milk and meat to the base.
She was friends with many of the flyersand the commanders and was very popular.
And then Pearl Harbor happenedand the airfield got very busy.
Matt (16:01):
So the busyness of the war to come brought Pancho a lot of business.
By 1941, Pancho had developed herland into a combination airport in
club, restaurant, and ranch, andthe many, many trainees that passed
in and out of Muroc kept businesssteady for Pancho during the war.
Emily (16:22):
But this is a theme.
Pancho was very bad with money andconstantly just ahead of her bills.
She had also gotten divorced in the laterwar years, and she would marry and divorce
three other men throughout her life.
By the end of the war, Muroc ArmyAirfield was a sprawling hub of army
flying activity, and in addition to basicflight training and bombing, the base
(16:43):
was also home to a top secret rocketplane development and testing program.
So then this is where we getto talk about The Right Stuff.
Matt (16:51):
That's right.
Yeah.
So if you've seen themovie, The Right Stuff,
Emily (16:55):
I've seen it, Matt.
Matt (16:56):
Then this is where things start to get familiar for you because
after the war, the club and the otherbusiness thrived and it was thriving
thanks to test pilots, the ones thatare featured in the right stuff.
And in 1946, the base wastransferred to the brand new Air
Force and throughout the forties andfifties, many records were broken.
(17:17):
And new planes were tested andPancho's was the center of celebration
for all of the test pilots.
Emily (17:25):
So the movie, the Right stuff is when I first met Pancho
Barnes, but I didn't know that Iwas meeting Pancho Barnes until we
did our episode on the 90 nines.
So I'd known about PanchoBarnes a long time.
I just, I didn't know that.
I knew Pancho Barnes.
Matt (17:38):
Mm-hmm.
Emily (17:39):
Test piloting has to be an incredibly stressful, but also like
adrenaline pumping kind of job.
And so they used Panchos to blow offsteam before and after test flights or
to celebrate and mourn the lives of.
And to celebrate or mourn the lives ofmany test pilots that quote unquote,
augered in to the hard ground of thedesert and augered in here means maybe
(18:03):
what you think it might mean, whichis essentially crashing and dying.
Like we said, test piloting isan incredibly dangerous job.
And so having a community space likethis where test pilots can congregate
and pay tribute to their colleagues wasa really valuable and important role
(18:23):
that the Happy Bottom Riding Club played.
Matt (18:26):
One pilot who was a lifelong friend of Pancho's was Chuck Yeager, who in
1947 broke the sound barrier, but thenight before that history making flight.
Chuck and his wife wereenjoying Pancho's hospitality.
Lauren (18:39):
The night before he was going to go up in the airplane to
try and break the sound barrier.
He was on one of Pancho's horsesand he might have been inebriated
a little bit, or maybe he justis not a good horseback rider.
I don't know.
But the horse collided with a fence.
On the way back to the corral and Chuckbroke one of his ribs and he did not want
(19:03):
to tell, he didn't wanna tell anybodybecause that would've, uh, grounded him.
So he had maybe a private doctor ora friend or somebody tape him up.
And this is the story he tells and he getsin the plane and he can't actually torque
his body to close the door of the plane.
So he has a little stick that hebrings with him and closes it up.
(19:26):
And, uh, so with his brokenrib, gotten on a horse.
Given to him, rented tohim by Pancho Barnes.
He breaks the sound barrier
Emily (19:35):
the way Chuck tells it.
He and his wife were racing back tothe barn and he didn't see the gate
was closed until it was too late.
It was a local veterinarianwho taped up his ribs.
I mean, ribs are ribs, right?
Matt?
Matt (19:46):
Sure.
Why not?
So this was all during the GoldenEra for the Happy Bottom Riding Club.
But then in the late 1940s, anew commander was determined to
bring the newly renamed EdwardsAir Force base into military
decorum and efficiency discipline.
Right?
He detested Pancho andthe feeling was mutual.
(20:08):
It took him a few years.
But the days of the by the seat of yourpants test pilots and the club where
they felt at home were fast disappearing.
Also, I mean, we could say there'sa difference in the culture of test
pilots at this time, too, which isthat at the, in the days of Chuck
Yeager test pilots were cowboys, right?
(20:28):
They weren't necessarily peoplewho were trained in engineering.
They were flying the planes to makesure that they, you know, worked
and to look for problems later.
The test pilots that, especially the onesthat kind of go on to become astronauts,
this new generation of test pilots, mostof them have backgrounds in engineering.
(20:49):
They're flying much more sophisticatedairplanes where you have to have that
kind of expertise to troubleshootwhat's happening in the plane.
So the culture of thetest pilots change too.
Not that they don't still like todrink and have a good time, but
they're not quite the same as thecowboys of the Chuck Yeager days.
Emily (21:06):
So even though Edwards Air Force Base was huge at this time,
the Air Force was looking to expand.
Even more and hoping to build a very longrunway for experimental nuclear planes
that went right through Pancho's Land
Matt (21:21):
and in the early 1950s, ranch after ranch around Pancho's was being bought up
by the government through eminent domain.
Eventually, the government came toher with an offer, and for her 360
mostly developed acres with water andbuildings, they offered her $205,000.
Which she felt was insulting.
Emily (21:42):
I mean, I can kind of, I see the point though, right Matt?
Like if somebody said 360acres, that's a lot of land and.
If you think about everything thathad built there, this wasn't, this
wasn't 360 acres of, of desert.
This was 360 developed acres, whichmeans it's not just about the land,
it's about everything that's on theland and all the investments she's made.
Lauren (22:03):
But she was a major thorn in their side.
I mean, bigger than a thorn,whatever is, whatever is a. A big
thing in their side and they couldnot wait for her to, um, to leave.
Matt (22:16):
Yeah.
And eminent domain allows the governmentto buy the property, and the property
owner really has to go along withit, but they're also supposed to get
a fair market value for that land.
Emily (22:29):
So Pancho sued and she argued that her land was much more.
Valuable than what the governmentwas offering and that the government
was ruining her business andher livelihood and that she
should be compensated for that.
But while waiting for the courts,several of her buildings were
lost in a fire of unknown origin.
Signs were pointing to arson, butit was never fully determined.
(22:50):
And if it had been arson.
There was no signs pointingto a particular culprit.
Lauren (22:55):
You can see where some of the buildings were.
There's some foundation there and there'sa little bit of rubble every once you can
see that something was there, but prettymuch everything burned and that was it.
I mean, first of all, she couldn'trebuild because there was no money,
and also she couldn't rebuild becausethe Air Force wanted to take over the
(23:18):
land, but she, she wanted to try again.
And she had a plan that was some,you know, sort of a harebrained plan.
Just do do some other kind of, notHappy Bottom Riding Club, but some other
kind of horse thing someplace else.
Matt (23:34):
And so Pancho got some money against the initial government offer
and was forced to leave the land.
She moved all of her animals andher planes and her fourth husband
to an even more desolate stretchof desert called Gypsy Springs.
Emily (23:49):
Eventually, through court cases, Pancho got more than $400,000
from the government for her land.
In 1956, she used that money to buymore land in and around Gypsy Springs
and farm equipment and airplanes.
And horses to put on it.
Matt (24:05):
But unfortunately, Gypsy Springs was not a lot like Muroc.
She had no farm.
The land wasn't fertile, and shehad nowhere to stable her horses
and nothing to feed them with.
She no longer had contractswith the military and she had
no customers in the form of.
Board service members, anddespite all her generosity, she
(24:27):
had no friends at this point.
Emily (24:28):
She was also deeply unwell.
She had had high blood pressure mostof her life, and now she had breast
cancer, which had been treated.
Then she had a thyroid problem, whichyou could eventually treat through
medication, and she had been livinglarge and rough her whole life.
Matt (24:42):
So she had had all these issues.
A lot of them had been treated,but now she's living in a shack.
That has no running water.
She has no domestic skills to feedherself or keep a place clean.
And you know, she was also lackingthe social life that she was used to.
There was hardly anyone around andPancho much preferred the company of
(25:03):
others, so this was not ideal for her.
Now, eventually peopledid come and find her.
She was rediscovered by aviationenthusiasts around 1970.
Um, many of the folks who found her thenthought that she had already died, but
in fact she was still alive and she waswelcomed into their club meetings and
(25:24):
they loved hearing her tell her stories.
Despite everything, Panchoremained a real character all
the way up until the end, right?
Her stories were outrageous.
She liked to shock people.
She, you know, was just like the lifeof any room that she walked into, but
eventually she died of a heart attackthat maybe was due to complications
(25:47):
from breast cancer in 1975, and shewas not found for at least a week.
Lauren (25:54):
She moved into a little house eventually.
That is the alpha and Omega of her life.
When you think of the, thePasadena mansion she was born into
and the shack that she died in.
Uh, that, that's a narrative arc for you.
And in between that areall kinds of ups and downs.
(26:18):
It's not a, it's not a pure arc.
There's lots of, of valleys andpeaks, many valleys and peaks
in that life, but that's, that'sthe beginning and the end of it.
Matt (26:29):
And the few friends that had helped her out in those last years of her life
did get permission to fly over and spreadher ashes at the ruins of her old club.
Emily (26:39):
You know, this kind of feels like a really sad ending to
a really big story, Matt, but Idon't know if I think that it is,
Matt (26:47):
I mean, every story has to end right?
Emily (26:49):
Every story has to end.
But I think she's got a really stronglegacy and I think the story that
we're telling is the reason thathopefully people can understand
why she's still an enduring figure.
Matt (27:00):
Yeah, there's definitely a lot of legacy here.
And you know, one of the things about.
Pancho is that the way we've learnedabout her has been through sort of
stories about test pilots who wentto her bars or you know, through
her inclusion in The Right Stuff.
And also there's a Pancho'sbar in Captain Marvel.
But in those stories, she's kindof on the periphery of the main
(27:24):
story, and she deserves to bethe center of the story, right?
Definitely the center of her own story.
You know, it's very fitting that there'snow a Pancho Barnes Day celebration on the
site of the old Happy Bottom Riding Club.
It's a barbecue.
Began in the 1980s with, you know,drinking and dancing that goes
(27:47):
on long into the night, right?
The very fitting sort of tributeto this woman who herself would've.
Drank and danced all through the night andthen probably gone for a horseback ride.
Emily (27:58):
Matt, we should put that on our bucket list along with the hot
air balloons in um, New Mexico.
But I do think that if you haveany question about what cements her
legacy, I think in addition to folksreally continuing to celebrate.
Her life, the way she lived her life.
I think it's also really poignantto remember that there is now a room
at the Officer's Club at EdwardsAir Force Base that bears her name.
(28:22):
So even after all of that animosity andall of those challenges fighting over
her land with the Air Force, somebody atthat Air Force base still acknowledges
and recognizes her place in history.
Matt (28:37):
AirSpace is from the National Air and Space Museum.
It's produced by Jennifer Weingartand mixed by Tarek Fouda, hosted
by Dr. Emily Martin and me.
Dr. Matt Shindell.
Our managing producer is Erika Novak.
Our production coordinator isSofia Soto Sugar, and our social
media manager is Amy Stamm.
A big thank you to our guest in thisepisode, biographer Lauren Kessler.
(29:00):
Her book, the Happy Bottom RidingClub: the Life and Times of Pancho
Barnes was invaluable for this episode.
Also, the PBS documentary, theLegend of Pancho Barnes and
the Happy Bottom Riding Club.
Additional thanks to Dorothy Cochraneat the National Air and Space
Museum for help with research andresources for additional content.
Photos and more Follow AirSpacePod on Instagram and X or sign
(29:25):
up for our monthly newsletterusing the link in the show notes.
AirSpace is sponsored by LockheedMartin and distributed by PRX.
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