June 21, 2022 • 27 mins
Best known for their satirical work for the Babylon Bee, Kyle Mann and Joel Berry have teamed up to write the story that they have dreamed about writing... a post-modern retelling of John Bunyan's "The Pilgrim's Progress".
For this special edition of AlongTheWay John Matarazzo talks with Babylon Bee Managing Editor, Joel Berry, about the recent buzz at the Bee still in Twitter jail as they wait for Elon Musk to release them, Prophetic Satirical headlines, and the book that they really want to write. The Post Modern Pilgrim's Progress is an updated telling of the classic tale.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
John Matarazzo (00:05):
Welcome to along the way. I'm John Matarazzo.
Your host and fellow traveler,thank you for joining me along
my way is I try to become morelike Jesus every day. The goal
of along the way is to identifythe moments in life that Jesus
really is walking with us andtrying to get our attention. But
just like the disciples alongthe way to a madness, we are
missing those moments that ourhearts are burning within us. I
(00:28):
want us to identify thesemoments, learn from others and
apply those lessons to our livesso that we don't miss the
blessings God has for us alongthe way in our life's journey.
Since I started working atcharisma media, I've had the
opportunity to do podcastinterviews that I wouldn't
normally consider an along theway episode, because I was doing
(00:48):
the interview for charisma newsor some other format. And I've
also been interviewed on otherpeople's podcast to those have
been great opportunities as wellas interesting conversations,
and I want to make sure that Ishare them with you as well.
Pilgrims Progress is one of myfavorite stories from when I was
growing up. The cartoon versionof John Bunyan's allegory still
(01:11):
plays in my mind. In this modernworld, the message is still the
same, but sometimes the way thatthe story is told can benefit
from an update. In this episode,I'm pulling from an interview
that I did for charisma news, Italked with Joel Berry, the
managing editor for the Babylonbe satirical website. He and
Kyle man co wrote the postmodern Pilgrims Progress. And we
(01:33):
talk about that Elon Musk andthe prophetic Babylon be
headlines. After my interviewwith Joe, I downloaded the
postmodern Pilgrims Progress onAudible and really enjoyed the
story. I'll get to ourconversation in just a moment.
But I want to thank you forlistening to along the way. All
of my episodes and social linksare available at my website.
(01:54):
Along the way dot media. You canalso join my email list to get
updates right in your inbox. Allthe links from this episode will
be in the show notes. And nowhere's my conversation with Joel
Berry. This is John Matarazzo.
For charisma news back with aspecial guest here today. I've
got Joel Berry from the Babylonbee. He's located in Ohio,
(02:19):
although the rest of the team isin California. He's in Ohio. He
and Kyle man, the editor inchief for the Babylon B, who is
currently still in Twitter jail.
They've put together a new book,a re a retelling of this, of
this amazing story that I grewup with. So many people have the
(02:41):
Pilgrims Progress, but you put aunique twist on that. So Joel,
it's great to have you on thecharisma news podcast to talk
about this retelling of this,this wild love story.
Joel Berry (02:52):
Oh, thanks for having me. I appreciate it.
John Matarazzo (02:54):
So the postmodern Pilgrims Progress,
which it is a mouthful to say.
Joel Berry (03:01):
Tell us about how a Triple P for sure.
John Matarazzo (03:03):
The triple B Yeah. So I want to hear a little
bit about like, what's theinspiration behind this because
you guys are cranking out abunch of content all the time
for the Babylon B and all thedifferent things that you guys
touch, you're doing videos thatare coming out on YouTube all
the time. I mean, when you'rewhen you're not in Twitter,
(03:23):
jail, you know, things aregetting out there. But you know,
the articles are hilarious, morethan just the headlines in the
art. I mean, it's there's,there's so much cleverness and
just gifting that God has givenyou guys to really be able to
speak truth to power in a lot ofdifferent ways. And through. And
it's not just talking about thecultural things, you're talking
(03:45):
about things within the church.
And so I appreciate that.
There's no, there's nothingthat's, that's too sacred for
you guys to go out there. So Ido want to talk about the book.
But let's let's talk a littlebit about your work with the
bee. And just kind of like whatthat's like, because I know a
lot of people like the Babylonbee, but not many people know
what it's like to be on theother side of that.
Joel Berry (04:07):
Yeah, well, it's, it's a blast. I've been doing
this full time for a little overtwo years now. When I came on as
the managing editor kind ofhelping Kyle run the site,
writing a lot of the satire, andit's it's a dream come true. I
don't have a comedy background ii was in corporate sales,
corporate supply chain salesbefore. So okay, usually when I
(04:29):
tell people that they're like,oh my gosh, are you serious?
Like, you know, how did thishappen? Right? And I, I can't, I
can't really explain it otherthan that, you know, God is a
merciful God and he hemercifully placed me in a job
where I could actually use mytalents, you know, and I know
(04:50):
how rare that is these days, youknow, to find something that is
really doesn't feel like workand that plays on your strengths
and so it It's been a blast, youknow, I think the one of the
best things about it, you know,not just for me, but for for
people who read the be is thatwith, with all of the just the,
(05:13):
for lack of a better word awfulthings happening in our culture,
you know, there's a lot of handwringing, there's a lot of
angst, there's a lot of worry,when we look about when we look
at, where our culture is going,where, where our country is
going. And to, to, to kind ofstart by like, kind of giving
that to God, you know, intrusting it to God. And then
(05:37):
changing your your mindset alittle bit to where you're
looking out at the world, you'relooking at the corruption and
the craziness, and you're tryingto find what's funny about it.
It's a really just, it's areally fun way to live in a
really fun mindset. And so it's,it's made me a happier person,
and I, you know, a lot of thefeedback we get from people who
read the BS that it's made themhappier people to that, you
(05:58):
know, you can't just have us aconstant stream of, of this
news. Bad news all the time.
Yeah, without having a littlelevity, once in a while. And so,
I think, especially with a lotof the places people used to go
for comedy, you know, late nighttelevision, Saturday Night Live
(06:18):
has kind of abandoned our, ourtribe, you know, our the
Christian, right, for lack of abetter word. Yeah. We've We've
kind of swept into, you know, tobring laughs to that segment of
the population. So it's justfun. It's very gratifying. It's,
it's enjoyable. I'm on the eastcoast, the rest of the teams in
the west coast. So I kind ofwake up with the news and kind
(06:40):
of get a sense for what we'retalking about each day. And then
I'm kind of sending the marchingorders out to our writers, I
write a lot of stuff, I doPhotoshops, as well. And we're
kind of trying to figure outwhat's going to what's going to
be the most important thing totalk about. And mix it up with
some, you know, some familyhumor, some church humor, so
that it's not all politicalnews.
John Matarazzo (07:03):
Yeah. Because I mean, I think one of the things
that has been the mostinteresting with the Babylon be
is that you guys have been moreprophetic than comedy writers in
a lot of ways. I mean, here atthe charisma media and charisma
news, we deal a lot with withthe prophecy and things that are
coming around that way, but it'slike, Okay, we have the Babylon
(07:24):
b two. And it seems like youguys are ahead of what's
happening in the world, too.
Because whenever we think itcan't get any crazier, and the
Babylon B's just talking aboutthis absurd thing. Wait a couple
of weeks, and it's probablygoing to be true. How does that
feel?
Joel Berry (07:39):
Well, you know, it's, it's gratifying, because
it tells us that we're doing agood job at satire. I mean, you
know, and we're not the onlyones, you know, The Simpsons
Southpark have also been verytrue, very good at predicting
the future. And when you whenyou're when you have your finger
on the pulse of the culture, andyou have a good understanding of
(08:00):
the world view of the otherside, and people who don't think
like you, it's, you'll findthis, it's not that hard to
predict what they're, whatthey're gonna do next. You know,
so a lot of it is us just kindof waking up every morning and
thinking, you know, what is thewhat, if I were, you know, if I
were a leftist, if I were apolitician, if I were a leader
(08:22):
in the church, you know, whatwould I? What would I do in a
couple of weeks short? And yeah,sure enough, a lot of them do
come true.
John Matarazzo (08:31):
Which is, it is wild. And, you know, one of the
things that's in the news rightnow, and I would, you know, I
just, I hope it's okay to askabout this, you know, Elon Musk
is in the process, or, you know,in the saga really, it's almost
like its own Lord of the Ringsin some way, you know, it's
Willie won't, he will actually,you know, in what's going to be
uncovered as he's in thisprocess of buying Twitter. But,
(08:55):
you know, I heard that heactually reached out to the
Babylon bee to see if you guyswere really in Twitter jail for
something that you did. And thatis, is that something that like,
really helped him make thatdecision to pull that trigger
and go for that purchase?
Joel Berry (09:10):
Yeah, you know, I suspect it was probably a
contributing factor. You know,he is a fan. You know, when we
were on Twitter, he was oftenreplying to a lot of our
articles or, you know,commenting on a lot of our
articles, and so, I it may havebeen the straw that broke the
camel's back, I'm not sure. Butit is still kind of an open
(09:30):
question as to whether or notthat deal will go through and we
hope that it will, becauseTwitter is such a, it's such a
poorly run businesses run byideologues that are really more
interested in controlling thenarrative for their ideological
tribe than they are in makingmoney. And so Elon is paying a
high premium for kind of apoorly run business, and I can't
(09:54):
think of anyone else who wouldbe willing to do something like
that. Other than someone likeElon, who's a little bit crazy
and is not driven so much bymoney as he is these kind of
grand, grand ideas about, youknow, furthering human progress
and free speech and things likethat. And so I don't know if
(10:15):
there's anyone crazy enough tobuy Twitter besides Elon, which
is why I hope it happens.
John Matarazzo (10:21):
Yeah, me too. Me too. I just think it's a very
interesting saga. Because, youknow, more things are being
uncovered about that. And, youknow, I'm looking forward to
seeing, you know, more Babylonbe headlines about that saga as
well. But, you know, we really,you know, we wanted to start
this interview, just talkingabout some things that people
were already aware of just tokind of give some updates on
(10:42):
that. But the thing that you andKyle have partnered together
with, because I mean, let's faceit, you're not doing enough
work. You mean, you just kind ofcome up with these crazy ideas.
And I'm just joking. You're,you're you guys do a ton of
work. But you decided to write abook together. And, you know,
this postmodern PilgrimsProgress. And this isn't the
first book that the Babylon Bhas put together, the also the
(11:06):
Babylon B guide to wokeness was,was pretty well received. And
it's a it's pretty funny. Imean, some of the stuff in
there, it's, it's satire, butagain, it's also prophetic as
well. But so you're taking kindof a little bit of a twist here,
and taking a beloved story andputting a twist on it. So tell
us about how you know we go fromthe the John Bunyan characters
(11:30):
and now you you've updated it.
Tell us about what you can aboutyour postmodern Pilgrims
Progress.
Joel Berry (11:36):
Yeah, well, I'll start by saying that this was
the book that we wanted to writefrom the very beginning. I mean,
the the Babylon be guide towokeness that was just our foot
in the door with the publisher.
So that we could write a bookthat did well with them. But
this postmodern PilgrimsProgress has been, it's been on
Kyle's mind for many years sincebefore he met me. It was a very
important book, and in both ofour lives growing up as young
(11:59):
Christians, and, you know, hehad always kind of wanted to do
some sort of a modern retelling,because there is something kind
of funny and a little bitsatirical about Pilgrims
Progress. I mean, it's for one,it's, it's one of the first, if
not the first, you know, Englishnovel, one of the most important
(12:20):
English language books. Andthere's, there's something that
Saturn has to do with analogiesthat are very similar to
allegory. And so we saw it askind of a way to, to do what we
do with the Babylon be with oursatire, and work it into a
(12:43):
narrative. That's, that's kindof a commentary on the modern
church. What it's like to be aChristian in, you know, in
America, a modern Evangelical,and we had a lot of fun doing
it. So we injected a lot ofhumor. We injected some tropes
that we love, just in fiction,it's it is a sci fi book. So
there's multiverses, there'saliens. It's narrated by this
(13:05):
angelic creature who's kind ofbemused and confused by human
beings. And it's full of his
John Matarazzo (13:19):
aren't we? You know, I
Joel Berry (13:20):
just it was just really fun to write. And, and I
think that I think that peoplewho read it will get a lot out
of it. It's there's, there's alot of insight about our current
culture, a lot of humor, it's aclassic hero's journey. And, you
know, the feedback so far, justfrom initial reviews has been
(13:41):
overwhelmingly positive morethan I could have dreamed, you
know, you when you writesomething like this, you put it
out there and you're kind ofworried, like, is it good? Is it
not? How is this going to bereceived? And so far, the
reception has been reallyhumbling to hear what what
people are getting out of it.
John Matarazzo (13:56):
That's really good. You know, one of the
things that I always thought wasinteresting about the original
Pilgrims Progress was just thenames of the characters that
pilgrim you know, ran into, youknow, and so, is there did you
work in some of those uniquenames as well?
Joel Berry (14:13):
Oh, yeah, yeah, we'll have you'll run into the
characters like the smilingpreacher, Mr. Loved by the
world. Mr. humanist, Pastor.
Faith, you know, we have we haveallegorical names very similar
to Bunyan. I think one thingthat we we did and kind of
departing from bunion a littlebit is that Bunyan in the
(14:34):
original Pilgrims Progress,always very explicitly explained
what each allegory meant, youknow, there's like a scene at
the beginning when Christiansees this man grasping at straws
on the ground with a rake. Andthen he goes into the next room
and the angel says, Okay, here'swhat that means that that thing
that you just saw, here's whatit means, and he explains it.
(14:56):
Our book doesn't exist. Blaineeverything. It has a lot of
allegory in it. And what's beenkind of fun to see in the
initial reaction to it is howdifferent people reading it or
getting different things. Sowe're, we're more explicit in
some areas were a little more.
(15:18):
We're a little less explicit inothers, which I think it makes
the narrative a little morebreezy to read through the
narrative makes it a little lessclunky, I think. And some things
are open to interpretation,which is fun.
John Matarazzo (15:34):
Yeah, what are some new spins on the different
things that Christian the maincharacter had? You know, as, as
I think what you're naming thisis Ryan Fleming, what are some
of the things that he has toovercome that are unique to
this?
Joel Berry (15:48):
Yeah, so ours has more of a backstory. It's
centered around a character RyanFleming. And he's, he's kind of
dealing with this tragic,horrific death of his younger
brother. And kind of how the thechurch and church leaders have
kind of failed him a little bitas he's he's struggled with this
(16:10):
pain. He's, he's kind of reachedthis conclusion that, you know,
there isn't a god, there's nothere's no meaning or plan to
the universe, it he's, he's kindof, essentially become a
nihilist, you know, as a resultof this tragedy, and as a result
of seeing kind of the, theemptiness and hypocrisy
sometimes of the, of the churchand, and so that's kind of the
(16:32):
starting starting point. Youknow, we gave them a little more
backstory, and then he goes tothis, this mega church, a
projector falls on his head,from the from the ceiling and
knocks him out. And he and hehas a dream. And this, this,
this book, is basically theretelling of this dream he has
(16:52):
while he's knocked out on thefloor of the, of the mega
church. And so and it has themultiverse element is kind of
fun. So the idea that we had forthe book was, you know, what, if
every time you dream, you'reessentially traveling, traveling
to another universe, and that'swhat's happening in this, it's
when he when he when you fallasleep, you're going to another
(17:13):
universe, and there's, it'sanother reality that's actually
playing out. And God is kind ofusing that as a part of your
story pushing you towards thisreconciliation with the Creator
that we were all made four. Sothis, this is the this book is
basically a retelling of the ofthe first dream and a series of
dreams that will eventually leadRyan to, to faith in Christ.
John Matarazzo (17:37):
So this is actually something that will
lead people to a decision pointfor their own life. Is that
correct?
Joel Berry (17:44):
Well, it's no. So okay. I mean, what what you'll
see, I mean, by the end of ourbook, Ryan is still not a
Christian. He's he is he's onhis way. But and God, you can
see God is starting to workpowerfully in his life, but he's
(18:07):
not there yet. So I don't knowif we're going to address that
and sequels or not. But Butyeah, this doesn't have a, this
doesn't have kind of like aburden falling off the back
moment that Sure. PilgrimsProgress did, it does have a
scene that kind of evokes that alittle bit. But we kind of
(18:29):
wanted to, we wanted to, Iguess, paint a picture of the
slow process, that sometimes thethe long process that that God
leads people on that eventuallyends in them reaching a saving
faith in Christ and, and so wekept it open ended at the at the
(18:52):
end of the book there a littlebit, which I thought was a kind
of a fun twist.
John Matarazzo (18:56):
Yeah, definitely. You know, because
most of the time, you're ifyou're calling this the
postmodern Pilgrims Progress,people, we're going to be
expecting some of those thingsto line up almost just like
you're retelling it with withmodern lenses. But it seems like
you've just taken that thatprinciple or that that concept,
and you've really made it yourown. But I'm sure as you've been
(19:19):
writing this with Kyle, there'sbeen some things in your own
life that have caused you toeither question or caused you to
dig deeper into your own faith.
Can you peel back the layers onsome of that for your for us?
Joel Berry (19:31):
Yeah, you know, I think, and I suspect I'm not the
only one. You know, I think alot of Christians evangelicals
in our country right now. Areyou know, I think there's a lot
of there's been a lot ofupheaval in the church. There's
been a lot of cultural divisionin the church lately. I think
(19:52):
we've seen a lot of our, youknow, our Christian leaders and
even like, you know, Christianmusicians who we, you know,
adored in the 90s and early To1000s, who have fallen away, or
who have either lost the faithor have been embroiled in
scandal and, and so I think oneof the things that we really
wanted to do in this book waskind of reflect what does the
(20:12):
Christian journey look like, youknow, our institutions in our
churches and our leaders failus, you know, what does that
quiet, faithful, unseenobedience look like? You know,
how do we how do we obey God?
When so much seems unclear? Andmaybe a lot of things are left
unanswered in our lives. And soyou know, it, we have an atheist
(20:36):
character, we have a humanistcharacter, we, and we tried to
we we parry to parody thosecharacters a little bit, and we
have some stereotypes ofatheists, you know, like, the
atheist wears a fedora and, youknow, the, the humanist looks a
little bit like Bill Gates,maybe, you know, but, but yeah,
and, you know, but we didn'twant to just parody them, we
(21:02):
wanted to, we wanted to alsopresent a fair representation of
what they believe and why theybelieve it, you know, we we
wanted to steal man, I'm alittle bit, you know, not
strongman them. And so we wantedto be fair to people who
question people who don'tbelieve, show how God God works,
even even through those thosetimes of questioning and
(21:26):
darkness and confusion. So, Ithink for those reasons, it
reflects a lot of what me andKyle have went through, you
know, in our, our Christianwalk, and we hope that it'll
speak to others as well who havegone through similar things.
John Matarazzo (21:46):
That's awesome.
I like that you're bringing insome, really this postmodern
world that we live in, there arenew temptations, even though we
know that, you know, there's,it's it's all there's nothing
new under the sun, there's justdifferent ways that it's
presented. And, and so Iappreciate that you're, you're
taking some interesting,creative license to be able to
(22:06):
communicate these these truths,and through through parody, and
allegory. And a little bit ofsatire, I'm sure is still thrown
in there, because that's yourblood, you can probably can't
get away from that, you know,I'm grateful that you're telling
this this story. And, you know,I'm a big fan of audiobooks. And
this is, you know, this is apodcast interview is, you know,
is there, do you recommend theaudio book, from what you've
(22:30):
heard?
Joel Berry (22:31):
We're not finished with the audio book yet. We're
working on that. So I think itwould make a pretty fun audio
book though. The narrator iskind of this weird, quirky
person, you know, it's verysimilar to if you've read
Hitchhiker's Guide to theGalaxy, there's, there's kind of
a bit of a dry wit to it. Thereare
John Matarazzo (22:51):
a lot of I was going to ask if that if you
would make that rep, if youwould make that correlation
there.
Joel Berry (22:55):
Yeah, there are a lot of footnotes, you know,
where he'll he'll kind of like,stop the narrative. And then you
know, what's up with, you know,what's up with meatloaf? Why do
you why do you guys eat that?
Like, that's weird, you know.
And so, those, those add alittle bit of fun to the, to the
proceedings, which we enjoyedright? In the footnotes.
John Matarazzo (23:14):
Well, that's good. So just so you know, I am
planning on getting thepaperback, the Kindle and the
audio version of it, because Ilike, you know, getting the
media however we can andsupporting thank you guys with
his work that you're doing.
Because it's not just, you know,it's you're not just about
writing witty articles. Butthere's, there's a reason
there's a purpose, there's,there's a goal to the bigger
(23:35):
things that you're doing aswell. And this is a way that you
can do something that's not it'snot the Babylon B, but it's
related to it, because it's,it's who you guys are, but it's,
you know, I'm excited to get myhands on a copy of it. Thank
you. So how do people get it?
How do people get a
Joel Berry (23:54):
hold on? Well, you know, we recommend pre ordering
it, the last book that wepublished the guide to wokeness,
it's sold out in two weeks, andit was several months before
they could get more copies in.
So if you want to guarantee, youknow, getting a copy, I would
recommend pre ordering it on,you know, Amazon, you can
preorder Barnes and Noble, it'salso on Christian books.com. If
you don't want to, if you don'twant to do business with Amazon,
(24:14):
we've got a lot of feedback frompeople, I don't want to give
them my money. So Christianbooks.com Has it. You know, and
I think eventually, maybe two orthree months after release,
we'll probably have it in theBabylon B store as well, for
people wanting to get it thatway. You know, ultimately, I
hope that it's just encouragingto people that's, I hope it's
encouraging to to Christians. Ithink that no matter who reads
(24:39):
it, there's going to besomething that you'll be able to
take away from it. And we hopethat it just has that effect
that that encouraging upliftingeffect on our brothers and
sisters in Christ.
John Matarazzo (24:52):
Amen. Amen. I'm looking forward to getting my
hands on it, as I said earlier,but you know, Joel, before I let
you go here I just want to say Iappreciate your time. But I got
to ask like what is the nextprophetic Babylon be headline
that
Joel Berry (25:09):
Oh, do you want a sneak preview here? Let's see
what we got here.
John Matarazzo (25:12):
Sure give me a sneak preview yeah
Joel Berry (25:15):
I don't know if these might these might see the
light of day these might not seethe light of day that the thing
about what we do is you knowusually takes about 300 pitches
to get a couple good headlinesand so we're waiting through a
lot you know, but we have let'ssee the monkey the monkey pox
outbreak is contained says headof CDC while peeling banana with
their feet see local gun rangeoverrun by conservative
(25:43):
candidates making commercialsabout how much they love guns.
Boy, I don't know we're a littlethin today I'm going to have to
come up with something.
John Matarazzo (25:54):
Oh my goodness.
Well, I gotta let you get backto work to you know to put out
some more great headlines forthe Babylon bee. But I
appreciate taking the time Joelto do a talk with us on the
charisma news podcast. And totalk about this postmodern
Pilgrims Progress book. I wouldencourage everybody to preorder
it because as he said earlier,the the previous book that did
the Babylon be guide to wokenesssold out and it took a while
(26:17):
before people could actually gettheir hands on it. So make sure
you preorder. It comes out June7. And so I hope you get a copy
of that and you can read it,enjoy it and then share it with
a friend. This is John Matarazzofor the charisma news podcast.
God bless. Thank you forlistening to this episode of
along the way. If you've enjoyedjoining me along my way, please
(26:39):
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(27:02):
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and may you realize when Jesusis walking with you along your
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(27:25):
Network. You can find tons ofspirit filled content from our
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Welcome to along the way. I'm John Matarazzo.
Your host and fellow traveler,thank you for joining me along
my way is I try to become morelike Jesus every day. The goal
of along the way is to identifythe moments in life that Jesus
really is walking with us andtrying to get our attention. But
just like the disciples alongthe way to a madness, we are
missing those moments that ourhearts are burning within us. I
(00:28):
want us to identify thesemoments, learn from others and
apply those lessons to our livesso that we don't miss the
blessings God has for us alongthe way in our life's journey.
Since I started working atcharisma media, I've had the
opportunity to do podcastinterviews that I wouldn't
normally consider an along theway episode, because I was doing
(00:48):
the interview for charisma newsor some other format. And I've
also been interviewed on otherpeople's podcast to those have
been great opportunities as wellas interesting conversations,
and I want to make sure that Ishare them with you as well.
Pilgrims Progress is one of myfavorite stories from when I was
growing up. The cartoon versionof John Bunyan's allegory still
(01:11):
plays in my mind. In this modernworld, the message is still the
same, but sometimes the way thatthe story is told can benefit
from an update. In this episode,I'm pulling from an interview
that I did for charisma news, Italked with Joel Berry, the
managing editor for the Babylonbe satirical website. He and
Kyle man co wrote the postmodern Pilgrims Progress. And we
(01:33):
talk about that Elon Musk andthe prophetic Babylon be
headlines. After my interviewwith Joe, I downloaded the
postmodern Pilgrims Progress onAudible and really enjoyed the
story. I'll get to ourconversation in just a moment.
But I want to thank you forlistening to along the way. All
of my episodes and social linksare available at my website.
(01:54):
Along the way dot media. You canalso join my email list to get
updates right in your inbox. Allthe links from this episode will
be in the show notes. And nowhere's my conversation with Joel
Berry. This is John Matarazzo.
For charisma news back with aspecial guest here today. I've
got Joel Berry from the Babylonbee. He's located in Ohio,
(02:19):
although the rest of the team isin California. He's in Ohio. He
and Kyle man, the editor inchief for the Babylon B, who is
currently still in Twitter jail.
They've put together a new book,a re a retelling of this, of
this amazing story that I grewup with. So many people have the
(02:41):
Pilgrims Progress, but you put aunique twist on that. So Joel,
it's great to have you on thecharisma news podcast to talk
about this retelling of this,this wild love story.
Joel Berry (02:52):
Oh, thanks for having me. I appreciate it.
John Matarazzo (02:54):
So the postmodern Pilgrims Progress,
which it is a mouthful to say.
Joel Berry (03:01):
Tell us about how a Triple P for sure.
John Matarazzo (03:03):
The triple B Yeah. So I want to hear a little
bit about like, what's theinspiration behind this because
you guys are cranking out abunch of content all the time
for the Babylon B and all thedifferent things that you guys
touch, you're doing videos thatare coming out on YouTube all
the time. I mean, when you'rewhen you're not in Twitter,
(03:23):
jail, you know, things aregetting out there. But you know,
the articles are hilarious, morethan just the headlines in the
art. I mean, it's there's,there's so much cleverness and
just gifting that God has givenyou guys to really be able to
speak truth to power in a lot ofdifferent ways. And through. And
it's not just talking about thecultural things, you're talking
(03:45):
about things within the church.
And so I appreciate that.
There's no, there's nothingthat's, that's too sacred for
you guys to go out there. So Ido want to talk about the book.
But let's let's talk a littlebit about your work with the
bee. And just kind of like whatthat's like, because I know a
lot of people like the Babylonbee, but not many people know
what it's like to be on theother side of that.
Joel Berry (04:07):
Yeah, well, it's, it's a blast. I've been doing
this full time for a little overtwo years now. When I came on as
the managing editor kind ofhelping Kyle run the site,
writing a lot of the satire, andit's it's a dream come true. I
don't have a comedy background ii was in corporate sales,
corporate supply chain salesbefore. So okay, usually when I
(04:29):
tell people that they're like,oh my gosh, are you serious?
Like, you know, how did thishappen? Right? And I, I can't, I
can't really explain it otherthan that, you know, God is a
merciful God and he hemercifully placed me in a job
where I could actually use mytalents, you know, and I know
(04:50):
how rare that is these days, youknow, to find something that is
really doesn't feel like workand that plays on your strengths
and so it It's been a blast, youknow, I think the one of the
best things about it, you know,not just for me, but for for
people who read the be is thatwith, with all of the just the,
(05:13):
for lack of a better word awfulthings happening in our culture,
you know, there's a lot of handwringing, there's a lot of
angst, there's a lot of worry,when we look about when we look
at, where our culture is going,where, where our country is
going. And to, to, to kind ofstart by like, kind of giving
that to God, you know, intrusting it to God. And then
(05:37):
changing your your mindset alittle bit to where you're
looking out at the world, you'relooking at the corruption and
the craziness, and you're tryingto find what's funny about it.
It's a really just, it's areally fun way to live in a
really fun mindset. And so it's,it's made me a happier person,
and I, you know, a lot of thefeedback we get from people who
read the BS that it's made themhappier people to that, you
(05:58):
know, you can't just have us aconstant stream of, of this
news. Bad news all the time.
Yeah, without having a littlelevity, once in a while. And so,
I think, especially with a lotof the places people used to go
for comedy, you know, late nighttelevision, Saturday Night Live
(06:18):
has kind of abandoned our, ourtribe, you know, our the
Christian, right, for lack of abetter word. Yeah. We've We've
kind of swept into, you know, tobring laughs to that segment of
the population. So it's justfun. It's very gratifying. It's,
it's enjoyable. I'm on the eastcoast, the rest of the teams in
the west coast. So I kind ofwake up with the news and kind
(06:40):
of get a sense for what we'retalking about each day. And then
I'm kind of sending the marchingorders out to our writers, I
write a lot of stuff, I doPhotoshops, as well. And we're
kind of trying to figure outwhat's going to what's going to
be the most important thing totalk about. And mix it up with
some, you know, some familyhumor, some church humor, so
that it's not all politicalnews.
John Matarazzo (07:03):
Yeah. Because I mean, I think one of the things
that has been the mostinteresting with the Babylon be
is that you guys have been moreprophetic than comedy writers in
a lot of ways. I mean, here atthe charisma media and charisma
news, we deal a lot with withthe prophecy and things that are
coming around that way, but it'slike, Okay, we have the Babylon
(07:24):
b two. And it seems like youguys are ahead of what's
happening in the world, too.
Because whenever we think itcan't get any crazier, and the
Babylon B's just talking aboutthis absurd thing. Wait a couple
of weeks, and it's probablygoing to be true. How does that
feel?
Joel Berry (07:39):
Well, you know, it's, it's gratifying, because
it tells us that we're doing agood job at satire. I mean, you
know, and we're not the onlyones, you know, The Simpsons
Southpark have also been verytrue, very good at predicting
the future. And when you whenyou're when you have your finger
on the pulse of the culture, andyou have a good understanding of
(08:00):
the world view of the otherside, and people who don't think
like you, it's, you'll findthis, it's not that hard to
predict what they're, whatthey're gonna do next. You know,
so a lot of it is us just kindof waking up every morning and
thinking, you know, what is thewhat, if I were, you know, if I
were a leftist, if I were apolitician, if I were a leader
(08:22):
in the church, you know, whatwould I? What would I do in a
couple of weeks short? And yeah,sure enough, a lot of them do
come true.
John Matarazzo (08:31):
Which is, it is wild. And, you know, one of the
things that's in the news rightnow, and I would, you know, I
just, I hope it's okay to askabout this, you know, Elon Musk
is in the process, or, you know,in the saga really, it's almost
like its own Lord of the Ringsin some way, you know, it's
Willie won't, he will actually,you know, in what's going to be
uncovered as he's in thisprocess of buying Twitter. But,
(08:55):
you know, I heard that heactually reached out to the
Babylon bee to see if you guyswere really in Twitter jail for
something that you did. And thatis, is that something that like,
really helped him make thatdecision to pull that trigger
and go for that purchase?
Joel Berry (09:10):
Yeah, you know, I suspect it was probably a
contributing factor. You know,he is a fan. You know, when we
were on Twitter, he was oftenreplying to a lot of our
articles or, you know,commenting on a lot of our
articles, and so, I it may havebeen the straw that broke the
camel's back, I'm not sure. Butit is still kind of an open
(09:30):
question as to whether or notthat deal will go through and we
hope that it will, becauseTwitter is such a, it's such a
poorly run businesses run byideologues that are really more
interested in controlling thenarrative for their ideological
tribe than they are in makingmoney. And so Elon is paying a
high premium for kind of apoorly run business, and I can't
(09:54):
think of anyone else who wouldbe willing to do something like
that. Other than someone likeElon, who's a little bit crazy
and is not driven so much bymoney as he is these kind of
grand, grand ideas about, youknow, furthering human progress
and free speech and things likethat. And so I don't know if
(10:15):
there's anyone crazy enough tobuy Twitter besides Elon, which
is why I hope it happens.
John Matarazzo (10:21):
Yeah, me too. Me too. I just think it's a very
interesting saga. Because, youknow, more things are being
uncovered about that. And, youknow, I'm looking forward to
seeing, you know, more Babylonbe headlines about that saga as
well. But, you know, we really,you know, we wanted to start
this interview, just talkingabout some things that people
were already aware of just tokind of give some updates on
(10:42):
that. But the thing that you andKyle have partnered together
with, because I mean, let's faceit, you're not doing enough
work. You mean, you just kind ofcome up with these crazy ideas.
And I'm just joking. You're,you're you guys do a ton of
work. But you decided to write abook together. And, you know,
this postmodern PilgrimsProgress. And this isn't the
first book that the Babylon Bhas put together, the also the
(11:06):
Babylon B guide to wokeness was,was pretty well received. And
it's a it's pretty funny. Imean, some of the stuff in
there, it's, it's satire, butagain, it's also prophetic as
well. But so you're taking kindof a little bit of a twist here,
and taking a beloved story andputting a twist on it. So tell
us about how you know we go fromthe the John Bunyan characters
(11:30):
and now you you've updated it.
Tell us about what you can aboutyour postmodern Pilgrims
Progress.
Joel Berry (11:36):
Yeah, well, I'll start by saying that this was
the book that we wanted to writefrom the very beginning. I mean,
the the Babylon be guide towokeness that was just our foot
in the door with the publisher.
So that we could write a bookthat did well with them. But
this postmodern PilgrimsProgress has been, it's been on
Kyle's mind for many years sincebefore he met me. It was a very
important book, and in both ofour lives growing up as young
(11:59):
Christians, and, you know, hehad always kind of wanted to do
some sort of a modern retelling,because there is something kind
of funny and a little bitsatirical about Pilgrims
Progress. I mean, it's for one,it's, it's one of the first, if
not the first, you know, Englishnovel, one of the most important
(12:20):
English language books. Andthere's, there's something that
Saturn has to do with analogiesthat are very similar to
allegory. And so we saw it askind of a way to, to do what we
do with the Babylon be with oursatire, and work it into a
(12:43):
narrative. That's, that's kindof a commentary on the modern
church. What it's like to be aChristian in, you know, in
America, a modern Evangelical,and we had a lot of fun doing
it. So we injected a lot ofhumor. We injected some tropes
that we love, just in fiction,it's it is a sci fi book. So
there's multiverses, there'saliens. It's narrated by this
(13:05):
angelic creature who's kind ofbemused and confused by human
beings. And it's full of his
John Matarazzo (13:19):
aren't we? You know, I
Joel Berry (13:20):
just it was just really fun to write. And, and I
think that I think that peoplewho read it will get a lot out
of it. It's there's, there's alot of insight about our current
culture, a lot of humor, it's aclassic hero's journey. And, you
know, the feedback so far, justfrom initial reviews has been
(13:41):
overwhelmingly positive morethan I could have dreamed, you
know, you when you writesomething like this, you put it
out there and you're kind ofworried, like, is it good? Is it
not? How is this going to bereceived? And so far, the
reception has been reallyhumbling to hear what what
people are getting out of it.
John Matarazzo (13:56):
That's really good. You know, one of the
things that I always thought wasinteresting about the original
Pilgrims Progress was just thenames of the characters that
pilgrim you know, ran into, youknow, and so, is there did you
work in some of those uniquenames as well?
Joel Berry (14:13):
Oh, yeah, yeah, we'll have you'll run into the
characters like the smilingpreacher, Mr. Loved by the
world. Mr. humanist, Pastor.
Faith, you know, we have we haveallegorical names very similar
to Bunyan. I think one thingthat we we did and kind of
departing from bunion a littlebit is that Bunyan in the
(14:34):
original Pilgrims Progress,always very explicitly explained
what each allegory meant, youknow, there's like a scene at
the beginning when Christiansees this man grasping at straws
on the ground with a rake. Andthen he goes into the next room
and the angel says, Okay, here'swhat that means that that thing
that you just saw, here's whatit means, and he explains it.
(14:56):
Our book doesn't exist. Blaineeverything. It has a lot of
allegory in it. And what's beenkind of fun to see in the
initial reaction to it is howdifferent people reading it or
getting different things. Sowe're, we're more explicit in
some areas were a little more.
(15:18):
We're a little less explicit inothers, which I think it makes
the narrative a little morebreezy to read through the
narrative makes it a little lessclunky, I think. And some things
are open to interpretation,which is fun.
John Matarazzo (15:34):
Yeah, what are some new spins on the different
things that Christian the maincharacter had? You know, as, as
I think what you're naming thisis Ryan Fleming, what are some
of the things that he has toovercome that are unique to
this?
Joel Berry (15:48):
Yeah, so ours has more of a backstory. It's
centered around a character RyanFleming. And he's, he's kind of
dealing with this tragic,horrific death of his younger
brother. And kind of how the thechurch and church leaders have
kind of failed him a little bitas he's he's struggled with this
(16:10):
pain. He's, he's kind of reachedthis conclusion that, you know,
there isn't a god, there's nothere's no meaning or plan to
the universe, it he's, he's kindof, essentially become a
nihilist, you know, as a resultof this tragedy, and as a result
of seeing kind of the, theemptiness and hypocrisy
sometimes of the, of the churchand, and so that's kind of the
(16:32):
starting starting point. Youknow, we gave them a little more
backstory, and then he goes tothis, this mega church, a
projector falls on his head,from the from the ceiling and
knocks him out. And he and hehas a dream. And this, this,
this book, is basically theretelling of this dream he has
(16:52):
while he's knocked out on thefloor of the, of the mega
church. And so and it has themultiverse element is kind of
fun. So the idea that we had forthe book was, you know, what, if
every time you dream, you'reessentially traveling, traveling
to another universe, and that'swhat's happening in this, it's
when he when he when you fallasleep, you're going to another
(17:13):
universe, and there's, it'sanother reality that's actually
playing out. And God is kind ofusing that as a part of your
story pushing you towards thisreconciliation with the Creator
that we were all made four. Sothis, this is the this book is
basically a retelling of the ofthe first dream and a series of
dreams that will eventually leadRyan to, to faith in Christ.
John Matarazzo (17:37):
So this is actually something that will
lead people to a decision pointfor their own life. Is that
correct?
Joel Berry (17:44):
Well, it's no. So okay. I mean, what what you'll
see, I mean, by the end of ourbook, Ryan is still not a
Christian. He's he is he's onhis way. But and God, you can
see God is starting to workpowerfully in his life, but he's
(18:07):
not there yet. So I don't knowif we're going to address that
and sequels or not. But Butyeah, this doesn't have a, this
doesn't have kind of like aburden falling off the back
moment that Sure. PilgrimsProgress did, it does have a
scene that kind of evokes that alittle bit. But we kind of
(18:29):
wanted to, we wanted to, Iguess, paint a picture of the
slow process, that sometimes thethe long process that that God
leads people on that eventuallyends in them reaching a saving
faith in Christ and, and so wekept it open ended at the at the
(18:52):
end of the book there a littlebit, which I thought was a kind
of a fun twist.
John Matarazzo (18:56):
Yeah, definitely. You know, because
most of the time, you're ifyou're calling this the
postmodern Pilgrims Progress,people, we're going to be
expecting some of those thingsto line up almost just like
you're retelling it with withmodern lenses. But it seems like
you've just taken that thatprinciple or that that concept,
and you've really made it yourown. But I'm sure as you've been
(19:19):
writing this with Kyle, there'sbeen some things in your own
life that have caused you toeither question or caused you to
dig deeper into your own faith.
Can you peel back the layers onsome of that for your for us?
Joel Berry (19:31):
Yeah, you know, I think, and I suspect I'm not the
only one. You know, I think alot of Christians evangelicals
in our country right now. Areyou know, I think there's a lot
of there's been a lot ofupheaval in the church. There's
been a lot of cultural divisionin the church lately. I think
(19:52):
we've seen a lot of our, youknow, our Christian leaders and
even like, you know, Christianmusicians who we, you know,
adored in the 90s and early To1000s, who have fallen away, or
who have either lost the faithor have been embroiled in
scandal and, and so I think oneof the things that we really
wanted to do in this book waskind of reflect what does the
(20:12):
Christian journey look like, youknow, our institutions in our
churches and our leaders failus, you know, what does that
quiet, faithful, unseenobedience look like? You know,
how do we how do we obey God?
When so much seems unclear? Andmaybe a lot of things are left
unanswered in our lives. And soyou know, it, we have an atheist
(20:36):
character, we have a humanistcharacter, we, and we tried to
we we parry to parody thosecharacters a little bit, and we
have some stereotypes ofatheists, you know, like, the
atheist wears a fedora and, youknow, the, the humanist looks a
little bit like Bill Gates,maybe, you know, but, but yeah,
and, you know, but we didn'twant to just parody them, we
(21:02):
wanted to, we wanted to alsopresent a fair representation of
what they believe and why theybelieve it, you know, we we
wanted to steal man, I'm alittle bit, you know, not
strongman them. And so we wantedto be fair to people who
question people who don'tbelieve, show how God God works,
even even through those thosetimes of questioning and
(21:26):
darkness and confusion. So, Ithink for those reasons, it
reflects a lot of what me andKyle have went through, you
know, in our, our Christianwalk, and we hope that it'll
speak to others as well who havegone through similar things.
John Matarazzo (21:46):
That's awesome.
I like that you're bringing insome, really this postmodern
world that we live in, there arenew temptations, even though we
know that, you know, there's,it's it's all there's nothing
new under the sun, there's justdifferent ways that it's
presented. And, and so Iappreciate that you're, you're
taking some interesting,creative license to be able to
(22:06):
communicate these these truths,and through through parody, and
allegory. And a little bit ofsatire, I'm sure is still thrown
in there, because that's yourblood, you can probably can't
get away from that, you know,I'm grateful that you're telling
this this story. And, you know,I'm a big fan of audiobooks. And
this is, you know, this is apodcast interview is, you know,
is there, do you recommend theaudio book, from what you've
(22:30):
heard?
Joel Berry (22:31):
We're not finished with the audio book yet. We're
working on that. So I think itwould make a pretty fun audio
book though. The narrator iskind of this weird, quirky
person, you know, it's verysimilar to if you've read
Hitchhiker's Guide to theGalaxy, there's, there's kind of
a bit of a dry wit to it. Thereare
John Matarazzo (22:51):
a lot of I was going to ask if that if you
would make that rep, if youwould make that correlation
there.
Joel Berry (22:55):
Yeah, there are a lot of footnotes, you know,
where he'll he'll kind of like,stop the narrative. And then you
know, what's up with, you know,what's up with meatloaf? Why do
you why do you guys eat that?
Like, that's weird, you know.
And so, those, those add alittle bit of fun to the, to the
proceedings, which we enjoyedright? In the footnotes.
John Matarazzo (23:14):
Well, that's good. So just so you know, I am
planning on getting thepaperback, the Kindle and the
audio version of it, because Ilike, you know, getting the
media however we can andsupporting thank you guys with
his work that you're doing.
Because it's not just, you know,it's you're not just about
writing witty articles. Butthere's, there's a reason
there's a purpose, there's,there's a goal to the bigger
(23:35):
things that you're doing aswell. And this is a way that you
can do something that's not it'snot the Babylon B, but it's
related to it, because it's,it's who you guys are, but it's,
you know, I'm excited to get myhands on a copy of it. Thank
you. So how do people get it?
How do people get a
Joel Berry (23:54):
hold on? Well, you know, we recommend pre ordering
it, the last book that wepublished the guide to wokeness,
it's sold out in two weeks, andit was several months before
they could get more copies in.
So if you want to guarantee, youknow, getting a copy, I would
recommend pre ordering it on,you know, Amazon, you can
preorder Barnes and Noble, it'salso on Christian books.com. If
you don't want to, if you don'twant to do business with Amazon,
(24:14):
we've got a lot of feedback frompeople, I don't want to give
them my money. So Christianbooks.com Has it. You know, and
I think eventually, maybe two orthree months after release,
we'll probably have it in theBabylon B store as well, for
people wanting to get it thatway. You know, ultimately, I
hope that it's just encouragingto people that's, I hope it's
encouraging to to Christians. Ithink that no matter who reads
(24:39):
it, there's going to besomething that you'll be able to
take away from it. And we hopethat it just has that effect
that that encouraging upliftingeffect on our brothers and
sisters in Christ.
John Matarazzo (24:52):
Amen. Amen. I'm looking forward to getting my
hands on it, as I said earlier,but you know, Joel, before I let
you go here I just want to say Iappreciate your time. But I got
to ask like what is the nextprophetic Babylon be headline
that
Joel Berry (25:09):
Oh, do you want a sneak preview here? Let's see
what we got here.
John Matarazzo (25:12):
Sure give me a sneak preview yeah
Joel Berry (25:15):
I don't know if these might these might see the
light of day these might not seethe light of day that the thing
about what we do is you knowusually takes about 300 pitches
to get a couple good headlinesand so we're waiting through a
lot you know, but we have let'ssee the monkey the monkey pox
outbreak is contained says headof CDC while peeling banana with
their feet see local gun rangeoverrun by conservative
(25:43):
candidates making commercialsabout how much they love guns.
Boy, I don't know we're a littlethin today I'm going to have to
come up with something.
John Matarazzo (25:54):
Oh my goodness.
Well, I gotta let you get backto work to you know to put out
some more great headlines forthe Babylon bee. But I
appreciate taking the time Joelto do a talk with us on the
charisma news podcast. And totalk about this postmodern
Pilgrims Progress book. I wouldencourage everybody to preorder
it because as he said earlier,the the previous book that did
the Babylon be guide to wokenesssold out and it took a while
(26:17):
before people could actually gettheir hands on it. So make sure
you preorder. It comes out June7. And so I hope you get a copy
of that and you can read it,enjoy it and then share it with
a friend. This is John Matarazzofor the charisma news podcast.
God bless. Thank you forlistening to this episode of
along the way. If you've enjoyedjoining me along my way, please
(26:39):
share this with a friend who youthink will be encouraged by this
podcast. Also, please rate andreview along the way on iTunes
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(27:02):
episode, so you don't miss one.
If you want to help support mein this podcast, I have a
Patreon page. The link to becomea supporter is also in my show
notes. I hope that you'veenjoyed this part of my journey
and may you realize when Jesusis walking with you along your
way. Along the way is honored tobe part of the charisma Podcast
(27:25):
Network. You can find tons ofspirit filled content from our
vast catalogue of podcasts,including my Monday through
Friday news stories for thecharisma news podcast. Go to CPN
shows.com To see the full listand latest episodes
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