Smallville Torch Exclusive #6 - Darren Mooney (Part 2) - Always Hold On To Smallville

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm John Glover. I was Lionel Luther on Smallville and
I will always always hold on to Smallville, and I
hope you all do too.

Speaker 2 (00:52):
Welcome to alwaysl into Smallville. In this podcast, we've talked
about each and every episode of the Young Superman show
that ran from two thousand and one to twenty eleven
on the WB and the CW. I'm your ho Sach Moore,
and we're back with another Smallville Torch exclusive number six,
Part two. That's right, This is part two of our
conversation with critic Darren Mooney. You can find his work

(01:15):
on Second Wind and the movie Blog and lots of
places on and offline. We had such a great conversation
last time I split it into two parts. We talked
for almost four hours, so worthy of splitting it into
two parts. And in part two here we talked specifically
about James Gunn's Superman. So had a great time. Hope
you guys enjoy a conversation, and I'll toss it back

(01:38):
to us in the past.

Speaker 3 (01:40):
To lay my cars on the table. I am not
a huge fan of Like the Superman twenty twenty five
and like to the point I made about Like Man
of Steel being my least favorite Snyder movie because it
is also the least Snyder movie. It's the one where
it feels like I can feel the least of the
person behind the camera driving it. I kind of feel
the same way about like Superman twenty twenty five, where

(02:00):
Gunn is a filmmaker who really interests me because he
does interesting and bold and exciting things that I don't
expect people to do. And like I didn't expect Guardians
to work the way that it did. I didn't expect
the Suicide Squad to work the way that it did,
et cetera. Peacemaker caught me completely off guard, and I'm like,
this is a really cool and interesting choice for Superman.

(02:21):
And like he's very famously said, like when he was
doing the Suicide Squad, he was offered the chance to
direct Superman and he turned it down then because he
was like, I don't know if I have a take
on Superman. If they'd offer me Batman, I would have said, yeah, yeah,
I'll do it. And it was only when they came
back and they said, would you like to run the
DCU and would you like to direct Supman? I's like, yeah,
now I have a take and like part of me

(02:42):
does feel a little bit like this is the most
safe market tested, straight down the middle, kind of flavorless
version of this director. But also this intellectual property that
I can imagine.

Speaker 2 (03:02):
People are gathering their pitchforks as you speak. I continue.

Speaker 3 (03:06):
I know, I know, I know, I'm sorry, but like
it it. I don't think you like people are coming. Look, continue,
We want you to still be going when they get here.
We want to give them a chance. You know, they
may want to stop on the way, grab a light lunch.
So I want to keep you here. Yeah, go keep going.
But like I think one of the things that I
really do not care for about the movie, one of

(03:27):
things like bristle against the movie is that it feels
throughout that every thing within the movie has been carefully
calibrated to avoid any potential friction or tension or ambiguity
or conflicted emotion from the audience. So, you know, I'll

(03:50):
give you a couple of examples here where like the
movie opens with its starting premise of like Superman intervened
in a war between two international powers. Right, that's a
big idea, that is a bold idea, that is an
idea that like challenges our expectation of Superman. What does
it mean for somebody with this power to assert it

(04:10):
on the global stage. The film does not show him
doing that. In fact, the film does not show him
doing that twice. It goes of its way to avoid
showing you it at the start and to avoid showing
you at the end by like outsourcing it to other
characters who are less profitable and less financially lucrative to
Warner Brothers than Superman, so you can avoid having to

(04:33):
deal with the question of Superman doing foreign intervention.

Speaker 2 (04:35):
I see what you're getting at.

Speaker 3 (04:36):
Yeah, you have throughout like this idea of like Superman
is defeated, Like it's three minutes ago he lost his
first fight, which is a great hook for a Superman movie.
And Gun has talked about how like one of the
issues getting into Superman is he's too strong, He's too powerful.
That's always been the way with Superman, and Gun is
obviously very heavily influenced by John Byrne, where a large

(04:56):
part of what Burne did was to scale back his power,
to make him more human and to make him seem
like he was facing a more difficult challenge than the
old Silver Adria and bronze age Superman used to do.
And so the idea of like, okay, Superman just lost
his first fight. That's a great hook, and you could
actually use that in really interesting thematic ways, Like my
favorite superhero movie the year so far as Thunderbolts, And

(05:18):
what Thunderbolts is kind of subtextually about is the idea
of what does it mean if we stop believing in heroes?
What does it mean to live in a world without heroes?
What does it mean to live in a world where,
like America has given up on the idea that it
is a superpower and in particular that it has any
moral authority. Like that is what Thunderbolts is about subtextually,

(05:38):
And I'm like Superman, this American icon, this American hero,
and America is having a spiritual crisis. So Superman just
lost his first fight. Great way to explore this idea
of like American self image. I think it's a really
clever hook. The problem is the movie doesn't really explore, unpacked,
what does it mean for Superman to lose his first fight.
We don't see him lose his first fight. Nothing really

(05:59):
bad happens as a result of him losing his first fight,
like he gets knocked down, dragged into the fortress, healed
and sent back and the hammer Bravia is apparently just
floating around in the middle of metropolis, like lecturing Americans.
He's not like destroying buildings, He's not attacking civilians. The
US government hasn't scrambled any fighter jets. The Justice Gang
haven't shown up yet because apparently they don't exist until

(06:20):
they're mentioned in the script.

Speaker 2 (06:21):
Like there's a lot of takes, some great points.

Speaker 3 (06:25):
Sorry, sorry, and I this is like this sounds like
I'm nippicking, and maybe I am nitpicking, but it is
like throughout the movie like Gun is a very again.
I love Gun so much. I'm a huge I think
he's the best director working in this But there is
throughout this movie I can feel at every point in
terms of the choices the movie is making that it

(06:45):
is making a choice that is calibrated to avoid potentially
alienating the audience. And when it does that, I instinctively
have the reaction of, well, if it's afraid to engage me,
I'm not being engaged with it, Like IF's afraid to
take a risk with how I will react to what
it's doing on screen, it is harder for me to

(07:06):
care about what it's doing. Like we joked earlier about
like the Batman, but like having Robert Pattinson sit in
the basement listening to Nirvana with the mascara running down
his face. That is a bold choice. That choice does
not work for everybody. Like when those images appeared online,
a lot of people are like, that's that's that's a
really silly thing to do. As you said, that's their twilight.

(07:27):
They're putting twilight in my Batman. That is a choice, Yeah,
Whereas I feel little or none of that in this movie.
And like to give you an example, it's like, how
much more challenging or interesting would the movie have been
if at the climax the thing that hawk Girl does
Superman does. What if like, at the climax of this movie,

(07:49):
instead of hawk Girl dealing with Bravia, it's Superman in
that position, one.

Speaker 2 (07:54):
Hundred percent more in engaging. But the reason they didn't
do that is because the last franchise can I can't
afford to have that kind of debate and ata you
know what, I'm not opposed to Hawk Girl doing something
like that, much like it's kind of her warrior culture.
If she even is an alien. I don't know who
she is in this movie. The movie doesn't really tell us.
Doesn't he very interested in that? That's his own conversation,
but I'm any any sort of engaging with that would

(08:16):
have been interest, Like the span, No, she did.

Speaker 3 (08:18):
That, Like that's exactly, That's exactly like Superman hangs out
with the Justice guy. Okay, that's cool. Does he know
that she killed the presumably democratically elected leader of a
foreign nature?

Speaker 2 (08:28):
Yeah, And like, what what is that?

Speaker 3 (08:29):
What is that really like?

Speaker 2 (08:30):
And I know it's a fun eighties action movie thing
to do with again, but because of where we are
with these movies and the discourse, you can't do that
and not expect the conversation. In fact, I do welcome
the conversation as you.

Speaker 3 (08:41):
Do, but like that, that's the thing, and I think,
like this is why it upsests like part I will
put my hands on my chest. I will say like,
I don't think this is the worst superhero movie this year.
I think this is much better than like Brave New World,
for example, Right, but I have no expectations of Brave
New World because I know that the machine that produces
Brave New World is like malfunctioning and like flailing wildly
at the moment and everything on fire. And so I'm like,

(09:01):
you know, the fact that this is bad is not
a surprise to me. The fact that this doesn't work
is not a surprise to me. But it's like, I
I worry. I sound like a teacher. I already said,
like a teacher grading and assign But it's like, I
know James Gunn can do better because.

Speaker 2 (09:13):
He has explain further experience.

Speaker 3 (09:16):
Yeah, yeah, you're trying, Like it's like need more effort.
Like that stuff is part of the text of the
Suicide Squad. Like the Suicide Squad has that incredible like
third act where they go into the basement where the
math where the thinker is like torturing Starro and has
been experimenting on people, and you have like this entire

(09:37):
like ideological debate between like Rick Flagg and Peacemaker about
like the morality of power and like American influence and
like whether the world needs to know and what the
repercussions of telling the world what happened here are And
it's like that would be a really interest I don't
obviously don't expect Superman the family friendly movie to show

(09:58):
me the dead bodies have been dismembered, but to have
that conversation of like, well, what does power mean? What
does power represent? What does power serve? Because I think
Gun can do it, and Gun can do it in
a way that is fun, Like I don't think you
mentioned the specter of Batman versus sup And I think
that's that's very much what this is. Where it's like,
we don't want mister Kent goes to Washington again, we

(10:20):
don't want more senate hearings as much fun as like
Grandma's peacht might have been. But it's like, we don't,
we don't want to do that. We want to get
as far away from that as possible. And it's like, well,
if that's the case, then then don't do the bravious stuff,
right Like if you if you're if you're not willing
to follow those ideas their conclusion, then don't pursue them.
But look, I'm willing to put my hands up and

(10:41):
say this is a me thing. I know a lot
of people like it.

Speaker 2 (10:43):
I feel like a lot of people, a lot of
people love a lot of people love it. A lot
of people whose opinions I respect, really enjoy it, really
love it. I didn't really that I didn't connect with
it as much as I was hoping. It's fine, you know,
to me, ultimately, it's like in the middle of the road,
like I but because I don't love it, I hated
that's how the Internet logical were so fair enough fine.
I was hoping this would be said, I'm a broken record,
I'm sorry, buddy.

Speaker 4 (11:03):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (11:03):
I was hoping this would be what The Batman was
for Batman, because I feel like the majority of of
course it's not gonna please everybody, but I feel like
the majority of people look at The Batman, I'm like, yeah,
that's great. That brought us all together as fans.

Speaker 3 (11:13):
We wan more of that.

Speaker 2 (11:14):
I was hoping this would be that this was not that,
and I don't. I'm strolling especially like because I've see
so many people that really love it, Like what am I?

Speaker 3 (11:21):
What am I missing?

Speaker 2 (11:22):
I don't know?

Speaker 3 (11:22):
Good and good for them, and I will I will say,
like I do feel like it isn't intensely online low
of it, like it's it performed reasonbly while the box
office like it is going to be the highest performing
superhero movie of the year, but it's also going to
be like the first superhero movie, like first best performing
super in the movie, not to make a billion dollars
since like twenty twenty.

Speaker 2 (11:42):
Actually, since you brought it up. We talked, we talked
some box office there. Let's let's box office a minute here,
box office.

Speaker 3 (11:48):
Man, box office minute. I like that. Listeners you can't see,
but Zach has produced a like flavor flave style clock.

Speaker 2 (11:55):
So okay, so let me like, let me understand, let
me understand what happened here. So, like the DCEU underperformed financially, right, yeah, right,
fit twelve years ago, whatever the DC was was making
under they were making between seven hundred million and a
billion dollars and it was underperforming. Today this is going

(12:17):
to top out it, you know, six ten, six twenty
million Superman. But it's a roaring success and we're back
and all that stuff. Help me understand, Derek, help me understand.

Speaker 3 (12:27):
I mean, the honest answer is that this is institutional
support that Snider didn't happen twenty sixteen, Like that is.
The honest answer is that like Warner Brothers is not
on not undergone a change of management recently that has
led them to change the direction of their massive superhero universe,
and that like you, you know, you don't have a
situation where there is a need to be seen to
be quote unquote doing something. I also think that like

(12:50):
there is a broader sense of the superhero genres in
a weird place. I will say, in terms of like
in terms of how successful we are projecting it to
be versus the actual actions that come from that. Because again,
every studio declares victory. The key is to declare victory
in any circumstances, never admit that you're wrong. How you

(13:10):
quantify victory is very simple. It's like, have Netflix commissioned
any of those Gray Men movies that they said they
were like, that's how you know that Gray Men was
maybe not the success that they thought it was. And
it's very telling that, like coming out of Superman, it's like,
this is the launching pad for an entire shared universe
of characters, and it's like, what are there, what are

(13:31):
the immediate reactions of it. It's David Zaslov saying I'm
so happy about this. I can't wait to see Clayface
and super Girl, the two movies that we have already
filmed and committed money to like, and he's not being like,
I can't wait to see the new Batman movie or
the new swamp Thing movie. Audiences are going to love
the five ten, twenty year Planet's like, let's see how

(13:54):
we're doing next summer. Is the subtext of that you
have Gun coming back and being like, you know, I'm
I'm working on the next script in the Superman saga.
And again you're right that this doesn't really matter in
the ground scheme things. All I want at this stage, Zach,
is the same thing you want, which is good movies.
And I am to put my hand on my chest.
I'm very excited for clay Face. I am actually really
excited for Superman.

Speaker 2 (14:15):
I am clay Face excited. Clay Face excited me. When
I thought it was gonna be in the matt Reeves universe,
I was like, oh, good, more than that. And I'm like, oh,
because that seems to be the place to do. Stand
on Labatan and Milson was The Penguin is fantastic. I
love the Pole, which I was very skeptical of. I'm
like the Penguin because they made the Joker movie. We're
gonna a Penguin show. Oh, I can't wait for that
incredible television, incredible till I can't recommend it highly off.

(14:37):
We'll see. I'm gonna give Clay Face a chance because
I like Mike Flanagan's a plus. I love all his works,
so I'm any plus on that super Girl. Obviously they
tease her here. It's based off Women of Tomorrow. We'll
see how it goes.

Speaker 3 (14:48):
You read Women Tomorrow.

Speaker 2 (14:49):
I have bought it and it's on my shelf over here, Derek,
and I'm going to read it before the movie comes out.

Speaker 3 (14:53):
I promise I will do my homework teacher, like I
will say, like it's a great I will welco about
the It's it's the Searchers, but with superhero's. Like again,
it's Tom King, who is like a huge creative voice
in the like New Gun universe going forward. And the
thing about Like King is that, like all of his
comics are like riffs on classic seventies movies, which I

(15:14):
love because I love classic seventies movies.

Speaker 2 (15:16):
What do we know to box office talk? Right, So
it's like I don't we wear indeed? Yes, So like
I uh, the minutes a little longer now, I'm sorry y'all.
The box almost but it's I guess I'm not one
of these people who I'm not like checking the numbers
every day. And yeah, but like every day I go
on the internet, I see people posting like Superman has
the best four Thursday of any superhero film, and I'm.

Speaker 3 (15:34):
Like, what do we?

Speaker 2 (15:35):
What are we talking? What do we It's like this
this desperate need to prove that you did better, I guess.

Speaker 3 (15:39):
And the domestic and the domestic thing as well, which
is like the it's domestically the most successful Superman movie
on adjusted for inflation.

Speaker 2 (15:46):
And it's like we ever talked about domestic and nothing
else in the last twenty five years, domestic and unadjusted.

Speaker 3 (15:51):
But like, and again, I you're right, it's not a
measure of success. No, it doesn't really matter. And like
the thing that matters is that sorry, I love that.
This makes me seem like a Snyder bro. I don't
care about the box office. The movie got made, and
that's the point. Darren says that he holds an axe.
But it's like, I don't really care about the box
office as long as like it gives the creative's freedom
to make good movies. And it's like, you know, I

(16:15):
would like gun to make more Peacemaker. I would like,
like I'm excited for Gillespie's super Girl. I'd like to
see Mangold make a swan Thing movie. I'm excited for
Walking's Playface. But it's like I don't really care beyond that.
And it's but it's so strange because it is, as
you say, a weird measuring stick of like this is
this is the version of Superman that was always meant

(16:37):
to be and he has manifested himself upon the world
and there will be no better Superman. And it's like, no, no,
he he performed like better review wise, but worse financially
than the Snyder movies, and like that's okay, right, this this,
this is this is the thing, right, I kind of
I joked about it like before the movie came out,

(16:58):
and it feels like the monkey bawlk curled.

Speaker 2 (17:00):
Yeah, I think I know this exactly. I know this tweet.
I know this tweet, yes, three or.

Speaker 3 (17:04):
Four weeks before, and it was like the funniest possible
outcome would be like James Gunn Superman performing about as
well critically and commercially as like Zack Snyder's Justice League,
and it averages out to about that where it is
stronger critically, but it's weaker financially, and it's like it's
it's so indecisive, it doesn't prove anything, and like this
is the thing. It's it's that moment where you look

(17:27):
at the person who has Zack Snyder's like Man of
Steel and like James Gunn Superman, and it's like, just
there are two cakes you can have, like they don't
one of them doesn't have to be better than the other, right,
you don't have to compare the two like this. And
I will say, I I I'm kind of biting my
lip on this because I will say and I want

(17:49):
to get your opinion as a as a supermanologist here
on this, Yeah, as a critic who is online as
part of his work, as a critic who shares his opinion,
as a critic who is in nerd spaces and who
has opinions about nerd things and loves this stuff to
death and like just randomly like tweets off thoughts he
has about it. You interact with fandom a bit, and look,
all fandoms are sensitive. You learn that as you go,

(18:11):
like famously everybody's like the Snyder bros. Are awful and
they're the worst, and they absolutely are. In some cases,
death threats are terrible. The worst successes of that fandom
are absolutely horrible. But what you learn is that most
fandoms have those worst successes, where like, if you ever
said a Star Wars fan and again, hashtag hashtag, not
all fans and it is the problem is that it's

(18:31):
the more vocal extreme elements of the fandom are the
ones who like make the name for the fandom. They're
the ones who spread the reputation of it, and they're
the ones who engage in these really unpleasant ways. But
I have found the intensity of the dialogue around this
movie to be peculiar. So I wanted to get your
opinion as somebody who is more entrenched in the fandom,

(18:53):
more familiar with like the character and like the characters fandom,
like as somebody we've talked about the xmles talked about
Star Trek. Is the Superman? Is it just me? I'm like,
am I either problem Zach or is the Superman? Foundom? Maybe? Intense?

Speaker 2 (19:08):
No, it's it's the children who are wrong, Darren. It's
it's always the children. I have a Smallville podcast. Okay,
So That's that's my thing, right, smallvele has come forth
from the Chris to Reeve films before, from the comic books,
from a lot of the other things. It's it's got
a lot of early it's got a lot of Dawson's
Creek WB teen drama. So that's the that's the world

(19:29):
I existed, and I'm happy that it is because I
don't know. I feel like, if you listen to me
talk about and I'm coming back around here, this is
the best way I can answer this question and explain myself.
So I understand it. Smable is not the greatest television
show of all time, but I it's it's it's the
most important one to me personally. And so that's why
I know this podcast and I talked about these people.
When people come at me and say, well this this sucked,
or I'm like, oh, I've okay, I disagree that I

(19:50):
found that interesting. Let's talk about it, right, That's just
how I see it, you know, I found that interesting.
So it's it's strange to me when people get so
mad about all this, that gets so angry and the
like attacking each other and all of a sudden, friend
of mine, Michael Bailey, who's a prolific Superman podcaster. You know,
he said that, you know, he traces it back to
like the when Man of Steel came out, Chris to
reve only people like really mad about Man of Steel

(20:12):
and not kind of the wheel kind of turned then,
because you know, and then and then it just kept
on and pinning ourselves against each other. Is not the answers,
nothing to be gained from it. Like we were saying earlier,
there's plenty of interpretations this character to go. I do
feel like, you know, certain fantoms felt like have felt targeted,
and it's the kind of lashing out because of that.
And you know, and sometimes I can't blame them now
to the way in which they express their opinions. I

(20:35):
don't agree with a lot of the times. But yeah,
it's crazy like if you express, in my experience, if
you go out there and express any kind of criticism
to this movie, you're like, quote unquote hurting the cause
or something. I'm like, I, I I'm sorry, I'm just
I just that's I share my opinions, and that's how
it is. I don't think Superman's fandoms, maybe to the
extent of maybe like you know the Star Wars fandom

(20:57):
can get, but sorry, I don't know. It's a shame
for a character is supposed to inspire so much.

Speaker 3 (21:02):
Hope and unity. It's just like as somebody who look
like I am a fan, Like that's the thing is
like if I if I sound like I am harsh
on bandom, it's the same thing of like, welly, I'm
harsh on Superman's because I hold like James Gunn to
a higher standard. But it's it's because like I'm a fan,
and it's like I we mentioned Star Trek, like I
love like the original Star Trek, Next Generation deep Face nine,

(21:23):
less fond of Voyager. But it's like somebody comes to
me and says Voyager is the best Star Trek. I
love it so much. I'm like that's great. Like I'm like,
why would I be threatened by that? Why would that
upset me? And somebody's like Next Generation didn't work for me.
I found Picard to too cold and too intellectual, Like
that's that's grand. It's like it's not for everybody. I
enjoy it, but it's it's very strange. Ow it's and
because I just I don't see what any of this

(21:47):
accomplishes a thing where it's like, like, it's not like
Warner Brothers is going to listen to like the terminally
online people and bring back Henry Cavell. Right, It's not
as if like me voicing, as you say, hurting the cause.
It's not as if me voicing my criticisms of this
movie are going to lead to David Zasla being like well, well.
Irish film critic Darren Mooney he he had some questions

(22:10):
about the assimilation of subtexts of the movie. I think
we need to get Cavel back in here.

Speaker 2 (22:16):
I will say, I I the one thing that does
bother me, like, and I don't really talk about this
a lot on you know, on social media, our own podcast,
but it's like when I share my opinion, you're like, oh,
you're just trying to like gain gain favor with X
y Z. I'm like, actually, no, that's if I wanted
to gain favor, i'd be out there saying five stars,
send me free stuff off promotual thing I'm sharing. Nothing

(22:37):
is to be gained from me saying I didn't love
this movie. Just for the record, everybody.

Speaker 3 (22:42):
And again, this is the thing where like if you
have people have weird expectations of how this works. So
I realized that this has turned into Zach and Darren's
therapy session. But like, if you actually engaged with this
long enough, what you will realize is that, like, film
critics have a multitude of opinions that are diverse and
like don't always align with company or like continuity policy,
and that like it is entirely possible for somebody to

(23:05):
hate both Man of Steel and like Superman twenty five,
but also to love Man of Steel and to love
Superman twenty five, and that like drawing these parties and
lines is really weird because, like as I point out
the start, depending on who is arguing with you at
a given point, your last stated opinion is your entire personality.
Where where it's like I did not care for Superman

(23:28):
twenty twenty five, and I think it is Gun's worst
feature length theatrical release. I have to be very careful.

Speaker 2 (23:34):
That is very precise phrasing there for you.

Speaker 3 (23:37):
Yeah, to be very careful. I think it's better than
Movie forty three. Take here, But like I and but
I also think that Man of Steel is Zack Snyder's
worst film. And it's like if I voice that opinion
that I think Man of Steel is Snyder's worst film.
It's like, oh, well, you're obviously a gun defender, and
if I always my opinion that like Superman twenty twenty
five is like a worse gun movie, Like you're obviously

(23:57):
a Snyder bro. It is so strange how these happen.
And obviously I hate Superman. Zach clearly hate Superman. That's
I didn't make like a twenty minute video about how
much I love Superman and lowis like when I went
off to Australia.

Speaker 2 (24:10):
You know, It's like I've been watching this show for
four seasons now and I've been I've been enjoying a
Superman on television every week, not every week because the
release schedule that show is ridiculous. But you know, I
feel like a lot of people had a need for
this movie, like they needed it, and I'm like, okay,
and good for a good deal. I'm glad you needed it.
I'm glad to deliver what you needed. I'm fine. I

(24:30):
have ten seasons of Small Well and four christ to
Read movies and I'm watching the Superman and Lowest show.
I'm not in I'm not We we talking about the top.
This has been a good era for Superman. The comics
are doing well, tied media is doing well. We could
go for a good video game, though we're still waiting
for that. Just throw that out there.

Speaker 3 (24:45):
You didn't like Superman sixty four, No flying through those Rings?

Speaker 2 (24:48):
Oh God bless.

Speaker 3 (24:51):
It was lazy and Jimmy Olson who been kidnapped?

Speaker 4 (24:54):
Who will save the day? A Superman? All the Powers
are yours?

Speaker 3 (25:03):
Flight set Vision, super Screed, super Spring, Freezing Breast.

Speaker 4 (25:07):
And X ray Vision by early and received the.

Speaker 2 (25:14):
DC Comics Collector's Edition Superman comic book, Superman the New
Adventures video game.

Speaker 3 (25:23):
You mentioned the comics, Like that's the thing is, Like
I came out of like Superman twenty five disappointed, and
like the first thing I did was I picked up
the Philip Kennedy Johnson War World Omnibus, which is just
one of the greatest Superman stories ever told, and it
was published like a year and a half ago, maybe
two years ago. Yeah, well it's a great time.

Speaker 2 (25:40):
That's the thing with a character like this or you know,
James Bond or Batman or whatever, like, there's different iterations,
so like I think they're.

Speaker 3 (25:48):
Concurrent as well. Like so it's not even like you
have to wait for the next train. You just walk
to another platform.

Speaker 2 (25:53):
That's the thing with the stars. The starshek fandomares that
I do understand, like like, oh, there's only one like
this other than the covin time. I like, this is
the one thing and do you mess that up? You
mess up everything my opinions of James Gun Superman. It's
not gonna affect how I feel about the christpher Reeve
films are small Ville like, those are all on their own.
So that's a this can this self containment and different spins.

(26:14):
It's a good thing. So was it the Superman movie
I was looking for?

Speaker 4 (26:18):
No.

Speaker 2 (26:18):
I had described it to people as like an mc
U Superman, but not like not like not like Iron
Man or Captain America. Like okay, like like Phase four.

Speaker 3 (26:28):
Let's say, like like thor Love and Thunder. That's a
movie I thought about a lot while watching that.

Speaker 2 (26:32):
It has a lot of DNA with the Flash. It's
a better movie than The Flash. The record, it's a
better movie than one of the greatest superhoal films of
all time according to James Gone, the Flash. But it's
it's a better movie than.

Speaker 3 (26:44):
I am gonna I'm gonna get crap for this. But
you're just like you're just laying bombs. It's like I
feel I feel like I'm the stalking horse. It's been
sent out to draw fire.

Speaker 2 (26:52):
Well, it's like if you that's the thing. Like again,
a free flowing conversation, y'all stay with us to tie
some of the stuff together. Like if you showed me
this and with the clips of the Flash and clips
of Black Adam and be like, oh, those are all
the same thing. But no, you can't do that, Like
like you you're like Superman Returns of Man of Steel.
You can't confuse those two things, uh, the Batman, and

(27:17):
you can't the Dark Knight lego Batman.

Speaker 3 (27:21):
Yeah, they're all completely different.

Speaker 2 (27:22):
Days, totally different lego that. But like you show me this,
I'm like, oh, yeah, this is basically Peacemaker and the
Flash and Black Adam because they're all connected, you know,
and but they're also not connected and it's kind of confusing.
So if you're gonna, like I in my preferred world,
they would have done the Batman and then spun everything
off from there, like Batman, they had made a series
and et cetera, or Arrow et cetera, like that you

(27:43):
start with this ground of superhero, you expand out. That's
how you have a clean slate, the ultimate tool for
the master thief. Clean slate.

Speaker 3 (27:51):
It's a lie, you really believe. Sorry, I can't do
a good Ben mendelssom, like it's hard.

Speaker 2 (27:57):
We standard my achievement.

Speaker 3 (28:01):
I haven't talking to the coughs nabb but.

Speaker 2 (28:05):
I guess ther point is that it doesn't feel different
enough there.

Speaker 3 (28:09):
I was about to say, like, the thing that like
really frustrates me about this movie as well, is that,
like in terms of as a Superman movie, right, and
this is like it's a Superman movie. And we talked
like there's a lot of Superman material out there. There's shows,
there's animated shows, there's comics, there's all this sort of stuff. Right,
So we're not like wanting for Superman in general, but

(28:31):
as a big summer blockbuster starring Superman, I'm like, this
should be a new take, Like this should be giving
me something that I don't have at home. And I
find myself watching this movie and I'm like it opens
with the John Williams score, it uses the same font

(28:54):
for the credits. The villain of this movie is Lex
Luthor as it was in Superman, as it was in
Superman two, as it was in Knockoff Form, and Superman three,
as it is in Superman four, as it is in
Superman Returns, as it is in Batman Versus Superman, and
don't worry as a sidekick, and that sidekick is a
Kryptonian like in Superman two, like in a Man of Steel,

(29:17):
like in Batman versus Superman, and it's also a clone
of Superman or a clone of a Kryptonian like it
was in Superman three and Superman four, kind of in
Batman versus Superman with Zod I guess, and it's like
this should have been new and exciting, and like you're
getting this canvas, you should be showing me something that
is new and exciting and interesting. Like for all my

(29:39):
problems with Man of Steel, there is with that a
sense of trying something new, and while it may not work,
trying something new is worth doing. And it's like my
adventures with Superman on television tries something new. I've never
seen a Superman story told in the style of like
a Japanese anime or in something approximating a Japanese anime

(30:00):
Superman and Lowis tries something new where it's like, I've
never seen a properly rural Superman story. And I've also sorry,
with all due respect to Superman three, but I've never
seen like an actual properly rural Superman story. I've never
seen a Superman with kids story, with all due respect
to Superman Returns the deadbeat dad's talker Superman story, but like,

(30:21):
I've never seen a Superman story like that, and you
can take that an interesting direction, Whereas with this Superman,
I'm like, all of these elements feel like they've been
like picked from Superman media that's already been done. Where
like even the stuff that I kind of like, which
is the bit where like lex Is in the control
room is finding one A one A, one a. That's

(30:41):
just that's that's like Injustice. He's playing Injustice.

Speaker 2 (30:46):
It is and it is his only memorable line of
dialogue in the film.

Speaker 3 (30:49):
One A, one A, one a. Nicholas Holt, Like, again,
I don't want to be too negative. I will, okay
bounce this out. Nicholas Holt wasted in this movie doing
a poor impersonation. Have you seen the great.

Speaker 2 (31:03):
I have heard people tell me I should see it
because because they're like, oh, have you seen the Great?
He's gonna be great, like Zuthor, I'm like, oh, okay,
I haven't seen it, but.

Speaker 3 (31:11):
He's so phenomenal in the Great as Peter, And like,
what's really interesting about his performance here in Superman is
that it is obviously Peter, but like without the charm.
Like the thing about like Peter is Peter is the
worst human being who has ever lived. He's a Emperor
Peter the second of like Russia, but he's like the
worst human being who's ever lived, but he has like

(31:32):
some redeeming inner life to him. And Lex here is
just the most generic villain imaginable.

Speaker 2 (31:39):
Thank you think I are we the only people who
think this fair?

Speaker 3 (31:43):
And like I like hol like Hold is one I
would argue a generational talent like Durer. Number two is
an incredible film with an incredible Hold performance in it.
But like, yeah, I was, I was so disappointed now
to say something nice because I promised I would say
something nicely in this. I think Rachel Brosnan is phenomenal.
I think she's really great. I think, yeah, I think
she's incredible. I think she's wonderful in the movie I agree.

Speaker 2 (32:02):
I think Rachel Brosnahan as expected ten out of ten.
No notes, I've said that many times, but she's great.
Nicola Soulta, I'm such an outliner on this. I feel
like everybody's like, oh, he's like the best Lex Luther
after Michael Rosebolm or something. For example.

Speaker 3 (32:13):
I don't even the people who disagree with he's act like, yeah,
but Smallville Lex. We can all agree on small Vill
Lex Luthor.

Speaker 2 (32:19):
I have receipts. But yeah, he he's bald and he's
in charge of the company.

Speaker 3 (32:26):
Okay, he wears a suit and he does wear the
three pieces.

Speaker 2 (32:30):
That one shot at him looking out of Superman. Yeah,
but you know from the other But like, what what
where's his memorable dialogue, where's his woody banter, where's his motivation?
Like the end of the film is so clunky with
them yelling at each other their motivations. I'm like, I
don't like.

Speaker 3 (32:43):
The thing that really frustrates me about like the ending
of the movie is that like it's it's the starting
point of a Lex Luthor and Superman relation. Like the
movie treats like the revelation that like you're envious of me?
Luther like it's a big reveal, and it's like, no,
that is the entire premise of the character, and Lulier's like, yes,

(33:03):
of course, I'm envious of you. I didn't distract you
so I could invade Bravia. I invaded Bravia so I
would have an excuse to kill you. And I'm like,
this is why are you treating this like a revelation? Yeah,
I had like assumed this taken. This is written from
the opening scenes of the movie, like, this is the
entire text of the character of Lex Luthor. You can't

(33:24):
pull a surprise reveal of Lex Luthor doesn't like Superman.
I don't know, audience, if you're ready for this, like
an hour and fifty minutes into the Superman movie, I
want you to brace yourself. Lex Luthor not a big
fan of Superman.

Speaker 2 (33:36):
I guess I had expectations because I love Lex Luther's
a character I always have, especially being the small guy
I am. There these characters' relationships, and over the years
it's become so nuanced, right, yeah, so many there's either
the personal, there's the ideological, there's all these things, and
it's just it's devolved into them. Just reading all Star
Superman to each other, yelling all Star Superman to each other.

(33:57):
At the end and we see their first meeting, it's
about him busting in about the dog and lose an
emotional control. I don't like that. I just I expected
to really like Legs Lutha the way I expect to
really like Loews Lane, and I guess I'm still recovering
from being blindsided by not liking this version of the character.
I don't get it.

Speaker 3 (34:13):
And with all due respect to Mike Rosenbaum and Smallville,
which I have not seen and can only assume is
the greatest performance ever committed to television, But like Luther,
is a character who has not had the greatest track
record when it comes to film, Like where I like
Eisenberg's like Batman versus Superman take on the character, but
it is a take on the character, like he.

Speaker 2 (34:31):
Is not the blueprint, but at least he's a take
what is this?

Speaker 3 (34:34):
And but like the thing about like Eisenberg's take on
it is that like he's an actor approaching it like
he approached Mark Zuckerberg in the Social Network, which is
I've been given this list of ingredients and have to
construct a character from it. And it's like it's such
like it is an actor treating the role with quote
unquote respect, whereas the thing is like otherwise, Like the
Gene Hackman, I love the performance of Hackman, and Hackman

(34:55):
is a great actor, but I don't think of that
as like a defining Luther, and like the we have
had to like capturing the complexity and nuance of the
comic book, like Luthor on screen is disgraced Hollywood actor
Kevin Spacey and Superman returned. Yeah, yeah, on the big screen,
You're right, apologies, And like I love Clancy brown in
like in the animated series, and I think like his

(35:17):
arc over Justice League is incredible, But on the big screen,
I think, like Spacey is Spacey is in a walk
like the closest we have had to like a comics
accurate like representation of that character on screen, which is
unsettling to me.

Speaker 2 (35:30):
Yeah, yeah, well, Gene Hackman, he's more of a James
Bond villain. You know, I've really come to appreciate him
this and like you said, like a plus reforms now
he honestly Superman four, he's the most like the com book, like, yeah,
he's doing he's doing, He's dealing with governments. He's growing
super villains, you know, but the first two he's he's
doing land stuff. But he's so he's just so rritating
because Gene Hack was on the great actors of all time.

Speaker 3 (35:51):
But still I think I think all the time about
the moment when like he takes Zodd and Arsa a
non the Daily Planet and they smashed through the office
and just walks through the door. Yeah, Like it's again
just small time. Like it's such a great character and performance,
but it is not, as you say, a comic book
Lex Luthor. It doesn't get it, like what makes the
character interesting and compelling.

Speaker 2 (36:11):
This is a huge thing about this film. Accuracy does
not equal quality, and I feel like people are like, oh, well,
you know then the Forcess Assaull, do we need a
bunch of robots in the sixties. Yeah, it's dumb. It
was dumb, then it's dumb. Now I don't like it,
you know, I don't.

Speaker 3 (36:25):
I don't mind the robots, but it's like, give them
something to like. Again. This is the thing where it's
I feel like this movie was kind of made by
Gun the studio head more than Gun the director, and
it's so weird because, like I watched again the first
five episodes of the second season a peace Maker, but
even Creature Commandos, which came out earlier this year, and
those feel more personal and more intimate to Gun, and

(36:48):
they're more playful, and they're more like things these interesting
And what's really interesting like Peacemaker season two is as
you watch it, you can feel that it was written
in parallel with Superman, and it is dealing with many
of the same thematic ideas, but they are like actually
articulated and explored in ways that, like to the point,

(37:08):
might make the viewer uncomfortable, in a way that Superman
isn't willing to do. But I found myself, like with Superman,
you mentioned the Fortress Solitude in particular when I was
rewatching it for this podcast, because I'm a professional Zach
and I did my homework, I found myself thinking about,
like how many of like the big scenes in this
movie are scenes that like Gun has already done and

(37:28):
already done better, where like, for example, you mentioned the
Fortress of Solitude sequence where the engineer and luthor an
ultraman like walk into the fortress and it's done a
long take and there's a bunch of action around Luthor
as he just strolls through it and they destroy all
the robots. That's very obviously like the Corridor Fight and
Guards the Galaxy volume three, But the Corridor fighting Gardns
the Galaxy Volume three was much better because I was

(37:48):
emostly invested in the character at that point. The sequence
that is going around on social media with mister Terrific
in the camp with Lois, where like the camera stays
focused on Lois as he does all the action secrets
around with the devices that he controlling like psychically or
with like hand gestures. That's Yondu from like Gud's Galaxy
Volume two with his whistling thing, and that is against
a scene that works much better there because I'm actually

(38:09):
invested in yon Do and Rocket as characters, and this
is like Yondu's redemption arc, and so him doing this
is a moment of Catharsis where it's like I have
spent maybe five minutes with mister Terrific at this point
in the movie. I don't really know what his deal
is like psychically, I don't really know what his emotional
arc is like. And so there's a lot of that
in this movie where it feels like it's a bunch

(38:30):
of stuff Gun has done before, and a bunch of
stuff that Gun knows work and does work reasonably well,
but like it doesn't have the specificity or the context
of like the stuff that I loved or the first
time that I saw him do stuff like that.

Speaker 2 (38:43):
Yeah, well, you know a couple asking I had no
idea where this conversation was going. Where, how long was this?

Speaker 4 (38:49):
Right?

Speaker 2 (38:49):
We had no format for this. We're just going with
the flow. A couple of key things I want to
bounce off you though. Yeah, you're absolutely right about that.
That's how I felt leaving it. Like you leave this
movie and you're like, what do you come back for?
What are you revisits? And I'm like, like you said,
all these set pieces, like you can see him done
better other places. Crypto, I guess, Look, I think Crypto's cute.
I've bought some Crypto merch. I'm glad kids are loving Crypto.

Speaker 3 (39:10):
And to the point, like Crypto is the part that
feels very tied to Gun, Like there are parts of
this movie that are tied to Gun and r deply personal.
Crypto is based on his rescue dog, for example, and
like that's a lovely touch. I will say I was
quite surprised. I was worried going into Like I was
mostly hopeful going into the movie of being like, you know,
it's James gunn The worst it's gonna be is a
three star superhero movie, right, And like I was like,

(39:30):
the one thing I was nervous about it is they're
gonna be too much Crypto. And I will say I
was actually really charmed by Crypto because I could feel
the movie actually cares about Crypto, is actually engaged with
Crypto as a character. I do think also the Superman
cancelation story is also the part of this movie that
feels autobiographical, But it feels autobiographical in a way that
I kind of scirm awkwardly in my seat at where

(39:51):
like Gun has done this before with obviously with like
Rocket in three, where like the Arc of Rocket and
Guardians three is the art of Gun as a creator
being used by a massive, faceless corporation to create an
idealized world populated by anthromorphic animals. Guardian's three is very
obviously the story of Gun dealing with Disney being called

(40:11):
a filthy animal pervert and cast out because there's no
place for him in this idealized world that Disney's building,
but then they call him back because they need him
to finish his work, Like Guardians three is such a
wonderful atobiographical movie, but I like it because Gun is
comparing himself to the filthy raccoon in that movie, and
so there is a little bit of a like a

(40:32):
I'm a scroungey, dirty, scruffy little creature, which I respond
to of being like I kind of like when a
director does that, like when Martin Scorsese he plays the
worst human being of all time in Taxi Driver, or
like when in Like Materialists earlier this summer, Slean song
performs the worst play imaginable, and the program clearly reads
written by Selene's song in it, like I like a
director who's like, I'm gonna put myself in the work,

(40:55):
but in a way that is playful and like, you know,
not at all, like is engaged with my flow and
my challenges that I face as a person, and he
does it with Peacemaker as well, where like Peacemaker is
the story of a man searching for redemption, and obviously
you know whatever about the particulars of like Guns cancelation,
and I think Gun's cancelation was unfair. To be entirely clear,
I think like he has grown as a person, and

(41:16):
he's shown and he's worked really hard, and everybody makes
mistakes when they're younger, and the problem with the interpt
being written in ink is that you know your mistakes
are around forever and all this sort of stuff. But
like he did send those tweets, He did do those things.
So like when Peacemaker takes the arc of Christopher Smith
has done terrible things and is trying to find a
way to redeem himself for that, I'm like, Okay, that

(41:38):
is an earnest attempt of an artist to put their
own journey on screen. I do bristle a bit when
you are making a movie about a character who is
portrayed as the personification of hope, goodness, idealism, the American Way,
who is likened explicitly to Jesus Christ in several of

(41:59):
the movies, including this one, where like he he goes
away for his like Rick Clagg Senior as Punch as pilot,
he gets sent to Hades or Minecraft Hades for three
days before he's resurrected.

Speaker 2 (42:11):
But I never made that connection. But you're so right.

Speaker 3 (42:14):
Yeah, no, no he does. It's like there is a
real like it is a Christ narrative. It's a he
gets crucified, but on social media he isn't crucified on
cross He's crucified on X But like there is this
sense of like Gun using Superman as a self insert
character where like because like that whole subplot about social
media and the screaming monkeys, and the thing is, like,

(42:35):
I wouldn't mind that, But the problem is if you're
doing that, you have to grapple with the fact that,
like you did send those tweets like you you're not
Jesus Christ, like.

Speaker 2 (42:46):
Was not fake accurate, we'ven assaulted all of our.

Speaker 3 (42:50):
Exponents, but they were sent by his parents, and the
key thing is that you are not your parents. And
by the by the way, to be clear, have you
seen the the digital release of the movie apparently has okay,
some some shy runs down the bottom suggesting the lower
third the yeah yeah, it says that.

Speaker 2 (43:10):
Now apparently people were saying that's not a change. That
was there all a lot? Oh so I don't know,
but Jason himself has said that the messages that's a
un rabbit hole. But actually, as someone who watched Smavel,
that didn't really bother me. Like the Kryptonians not being
like like as on the level as they have been
every other worse because they played with that in Smallvell
and didn't even go all the way, but in the
movie they went all the way. I'm like, hey, I

(43:30):
respect you went all the way. Please don't bat track it,
because then it's gonna remove any integrity you had to
begin with. And we got to Rise a skywrecker situation.

Speaker 3 (43:36):
I agree entirely. You don't backtrack, you can't put it
in in backtrack, and like, yes, Rise of Skywalker is
exactly the model to follow here. I do also think
that like this is a loaded gun to play with
at the moment in American politics, where like to suggest
that the immigrant has been sent here to like sleep
with all your women and established secret harems and like
even if Superman is quote unquote a good one, who

(43:57):
would never do that, like creating a world where like
you're telling people that like immigrants are being sent here
to do this and it's okay because this one didn't.
It's it's a very weird like piece of subtext to
put in a movie that you are releasing right now
and which you yourself have like spent the weeks leading
up to release the movie selling as an immigrant story.

Speaker 2 (44:18):
Yeah, I think that's an unintended consequence.

Speaker 3 (44:20):
But yeah, no, I don't think it's intentional.

Speaker 2 (44:23):
There's no waste.

Speaker 3 (44:24):
None is doing an adoption story. Gun is doing like
a lost found family thing. He's doing the stuff he
did with Ego and Guardians too, the stuff he did
with Augie and Peacemaker. It is not intentional. I'm non
sinuating his intention.

Speaker 2 (44:35):
Eithera are but it's there if you want to look
for it. It's like once you once you reject where
you're from and embrace your Middle American values, then you've
discover your true self. I'm like, oh, okay, interesting.

Speaker 3 (44:47):
Which is very burnsy and again like to get back
to the post crisis influence of him.

Speaker 2 (44:51):
This might shock you. I only read The Man of
Steel MANI series by John Byne just a couple of
years ago for the first time. It had been this
thing that I always knew about.

Speaker 3 (44:58):
It's like, you know, it has like a mythic reputation.
Superman found him again. This is where Darren alienates the
other happier Listener's never been a huge John Burn writer fan.
I think he's a great artist, not.

Speaker 2 (45:07):
A huge fan of Burn has a right, there's more
of that coming around these days than I think the
people didn't realize. But no I read. I was like,
I was shocked. How he's like, I was, I was
born in America.

Speaker 3 (45:15):
Technically born in America. Yeah, Like the extent to gun
goes to again and again, like setting aside the politics
of Burn and Burns strange fixation on men meeting their
wives when their wives were children, But you have this
like fixation that Burne has in like explaining comic superpowers
as hard science, where like he explains how Superman flies,

(45:37):
and he explains how like Gladiator flies back in X Men,
for example, And like the extent to which he goes, Yeah, no,
Superman was technically born on Earth by the like biological
definition of birth.

Speaker 5 (45:48):
Yes, yes, great Caesar's ghost a midlife crisis for the
man who steel true plumbing. Comic book sales have proven
to be far more damaging to Superman than Kryptonite. That's
why the folks at DC Comics decided it was time

(46:09):
to give him a.

Speaker 6 (46:09):
New look and a new attitude. Not to worry.

Speaker 5 (46:13):
Superman will continue to fight for truth justice in the
American way.

Speaker 6 (46:16):
He'll just have to sweat and grun a little bit
more to pull off some of his superhuman feats.

Speaker 5 (46:21):
Writer artist John Byrne is the man responsible for forging
this new, improved Man of Steel. The first comic books
hit the new stands on the fourth of July, and
John is here to give us a sneak preview.

Speaker 6 (46:32):
Will he still be able to leap tall buildings in
a single mound?

Speaker 4 (46:35):
Oh, he'll be able to leap considerably higher than tall buildings.

Speaker 6 (46:38):
However, there are going to be limitations.

Speaker 4 (46:40):
Yes, we are cranking him down quite a bit. In
recent years, he's been able to push planets around, and
we think that's getting just a little bit too much.
It's hard to do an exciting story with the guy
who's that powerful.

Speaker 5 (46:52):
The kids decided he was too super for their modern taste.

Speaker 4 (46:55):
More or less. Yes, yes, there's a perception of Superman
that because he is so powerful, he is automatically boring.
And we are saying, well, okay, he's less powerful, therefore
less boring. Ah.

Speaker 6 (47:06):
Not only that, you gave him kind of a new look.

Speaker 4 (47:08):
Bit of a new look.

Speaker 6 (47:09):
Let's look at the new look.

Speaker 4 (47:10):
Softened him a bit, Superman.

Speaker 6 (47:12):
This is the new guy.

Speaker 4 (47:14):
That's an interesting he.

Speaker 6 (47:17):
What all that difference? What's what subtly have you done.

Speaker 4 (47:20):
To this look? Well that's a shot of the young
Clark Kent.

Speaker 6 (47:24):
So well, this is Clark.

Speaker 4 (47:25):
This is Clark. Yes, Superman still wears the familiar costume. Uh,
there he is. In fact, he is a little less
uh what would be the word, I suppose stodgy. Over
the years, he's kind of softened and we've chipped away
some of the softness and given him a more traditional
bodybuilder kind of build and a kind of a more

(47:47):
rugged he man kind of face.

Speaker 5 (47:48):
And why, as I asked at the top of the program,
does Clark Kent need a nautilist equipment in his apartment?

Speaker 4 (47:56):
Clark Kent needs nautalist's equipment in his apartment? To explain
why Clark Kent has big muscles, because oh, you know,
why would this you know, mild mannered reporter be built
like Arnold Schwarzenegger. Well, not all that mild man or
not anymore. No, he's he's a little more oom fee.

Speaker 6 (48:14):
Why in the eighties they thought the kids thought he
was a whim.

Speaker 4 (48:17):
Yes, well he's always been a whim. Unfortunately, poor Clark
has had to run around pretending not to be Superman
so much that he has had no depth to himself.
Now we've restructured it so that the world no longer
knows that he has a secret identity, so he doesn't
have to pretend not to be Superman anymore.

Speaker 6 (48:34):
So we could take him seriously if we passed him
on the street.

Speaker 4 (48:36):
I sure hope so ye?

Speaker 6 (48:37):
And what does he do for a living? And is
he real good?

Speaker 4 (48:40):
Well, yes, he's the best reporter, come feature writer, come
whatever else it is he does on the planet.

Speaker 6 (48:46):
You didn't make him an investigative reporter for sixty minutes.

Speaker 4 (48:49):
No, no, we didn't. He was on TV for a
while that didn't while that ties him down too much.
You know, when you have to be on camera, you
can't be dashing off to the phone booth to change
into Superman. It's your style. You know.

Speaker 5 (49:01):
The Today Show starts at seven o'clock and I've got
to be there. What gives you the right to tamper
with an American institution.

Speaker 4 (49:07):
A public utility like public utility?

Speaker 6 (49:09):
What gives me personally the right well you and them,
are they or whoever y'all are?

Speaker 4 (49:13):
Well, the DC Comics, which owns Superman, has the right
simply because they own Superman, right. And I should point out,
of course, that this isn't the first time it's been done.
That this is about the fifth time that a fix
has been done on the character. This is the most sweeping, perhaps,
but over the years we've reached points, basically at about

(49:35):
fifteen year intervals where we have said something's got to
be done here.

Speaker 5 (49:38):
Even so, some people were going to think, yeah, that's
what they thought in Atlanta when they gave us new
Coke New Coke.

Speaker 4 (49:43):
Well, actually we've heard that reference a lot. Yeah, And
the point that we generally make is that we are
doing classic Superman because we're taking him back to where
he started. No.

Speaker 6 (49:54):
No, this is the fourth of July issue, that's the
first issue cover. This says the legend. Have you rewritten
his history too?

Speaker 4 (50:03):
We have restructured his history because a lot of debris
gathered in a fifty year period, But debris, have you
gotten rid of? Everybody else with super in front of
his names such as Supergirl, super Dog, Supercat, Superbat, super Hardvark,
you know all of these are are gone.

Speaker 6 (50:17):
You know, won't won't won't miss him?

Speaker 4 (50:20):
Well, I don't think we'll miss him. I think one
of the most important aspects of the character was that
he was sole survivor of the doom planet Krypton, and
now he's that again. Nobody else walked away from that.

Speaker 6 (50:31):
You know, Lois is still intacted.

Speaker 4 (50:33):
Lois is still intact, but she didn't come from Krypton.
Is a hunk et Oh god, no, she's a self assured.

Speaker 5 (50:40):
Self motivating Yes, the answer a hunk at Okay, good
luck with it?

Speaker 4 (50:45):
Well, thank you, good luck.

Speaker 2 (50:48):
Yeah. The social media stuff, I feel like, obviously it's
it's it's autobiographical, but then I feel like it's also
like a swing at the restore the Snyder cut restored
the Snyder Verse people, because whenever I Darren, whenever I'm
online and somebody says something negative about this movie, people
post a tweet of the monk he's typing. I'm like,
that's that's why that's in there. And I find that annoying.

Speaker 3 (51:10):
Slight conceptual spoiler for like Peacemaker season two coming up,
not an actual spoiler. I'm not gonna tell you what
happens in the show. I may tell you what I
think the show is about, having seen five episodes of it,
and how that relates to Superman. So you can skip
ahead about like forty five seconds. But gun is very

(51:31):
interested in this idea of the Internet as a space
that divides us. And I think like at the end
where you have a metropolis literally being torn in half
by a huge chasm that is tearing the world apart,
that literally tears the twin Towers of Lex Corporate part
because you do have to have some nine to eleven
imagery in your superhero blockbuster even today, but you do
have this idea of like a huge divide and like
the pocket universe in Superman. When I watched it, I

(51:54):
was like, is this a really bad metaphor for the Internet.
It can't possibly be a really bad metaphor for the Internet.
But then you watch Peacemaker where there's a pocket universe, like, oh,
this is actually a really good metaphor for the Internet.
Oh it was meant to be. It's this thing that
divides us and separates us and tears us apart. It
brings us all together, it connects us. It allows us
to cross huge distances immediately, it allows us to be

(52:15):
everywhere at once. People get lost in it, get swallowed
by it, get devoured by it. It doesn't exist under
regulation or law. It is the Internet is what this
kind of spirtual space is, right, And in Peacemaker Too,
it becomes more explicit because the virtual world is a
place where you can go where you can lose yourself,
or you can find yourself an idealized life, or you
can imagine the life that you might have had. You

(52:35):
can have like the bubble. You can go into a
world where you're told that you're special and you're validated,
and that everything that you want to believe is true,
and it disconnects you from reality and it destroys all
your relationships, right, And I can tell that like he
was writing these he was writing these two things in parallel,
and these are both about the Internet. And it's like
I needed to see Peacemaker Too actually do that idea

(52:59):
well well and clearly and articulately to understand what he
was trying to do with Superman.

Speaker 2 (53:06):
I'm more excited for his figransure because that sounds fascinating
to me. That speaks to what we're all experiencing right now.
And yeah, I didn't make that connection at all, now
that you mentioned, like, well they do use the computer
to close the rift and open the rift. Yeah, maybe
that's the trigger.

Speaker 3 (53:17):
Yeah, And like it literally, like it's literally tearing America apart.
It's like ripping, ripping straight through the heart and creating
like a black ole that will swallow us all right,
like it is and like the monk. But the thing is,
the monkey's screaming is such an obvious and patronizing metaphor
where it's like, yeah, you know why, like Zach, do
you know why America is in the state that it is.

(53:38):
It's not because we need to heal, it's not because
we need to like reach out and touch each other.
It's not because we've lost empathy for our fellow human beings.
It's because there's monkeys typing nonsense bots filling our feeds
with hatred. And if you could just destroy those bots,
America would be fine. All of our problems would just evaporate.

(53:59):
Like it Like one of my big issues with Superman
is and it gets back to that, Like I know,
it's a very trite thing of like how does Superman
feel about the execution of the Barravian President? But It
is that thing of like avoiding the awkward conversation of like,
but what happens tomorrow when all of America still believes
that Superman was sent here to operate secret harems.

Speaker 2 (54:21):
They didn't like clear that up.

Speaker 3 (54:24):
And it's like, Zach, I am not American, and I
do not wish to offend any of your American listeners
when I point out this simple statement of fact. The
current occupant of the Oval Office began his political career
by insinuating that a person of color was not American

(54:46):
and making that largely the central plank of his political philosophy,
and he wrote it all the way to the highest
office in America. I don't see a world where like
everyone's like, well, you know what, Superman you have. Your
parents may have sent you here to repopulate the planet
and rule us like a god, but you seem okay

(55:06):
with us and everything's fine. And but the movie ends
on a note that's like and everything was great, Like
it's very strange, and it's like I and it gets
back to that issue I have with the movie, which
is it feels like it's it doesn't want me to
be upset. It doesn't want me to be uncomfortable. It
doesn't want me to feel anything but like just happiness

(55:27):
and joy. And it's like, then, don't play with the
ideas you're playing with.

Speaker 2 (55:31):
See that's the thing this movie. It it touches on
the fringes of things that really could like it really
delve down into and be fascinating what Superman grapple, like
you mentioned it earlier, grappling with losing for the first time, right,
grappling with this truth of his parents, Like everything is
just so at this breaknet pace good. So the course
of a week, you know, apparently the film had like
days markers again.

Speaker 3 (55:52):
Speaking of things that are compromised and like cowardice. The
removing of those days of the week title cards because
they didn't test well is to meet like such a
move of cowards because the movie clearly is structured to
be a week in the life of Superman, and it's like,
why would you remove this? And it feels like there
are beats in the movie that are jokes, like the
moment where like Superman is arrested by the DoD and

(56:12):
he slammed down onto the concrete that's clearly meant to
be him slamming down and smashing say the word Wednesday,
Like that's.

Speaker 2 (56:18):
Meant to be Like okay, like you can tell that
the way the.

Speaker 3 (56:21):
Frame is composed. It was like like the gun does
it in the suicide.

Speaker 2 (56:26):
Square Yeah, where it's a part of the scene.

Speaker 3 (56:27):
Yeah, where it's part of the scene. And then like
at one point, I think a character falls onto one
of them.

Speaker 2 (56:32):
See that's like visually lean into that visual identity? Why
remove why shave off all the edges of this to
make it just because.

Speaker 3 (56:38):
Because this needs to launch a franchise like this is
where like I but I don't be convinced.

Speaker 2 (56:43):
So why do people annoy? Why do people not like that?

Speaker 3 (56:45):
Why do people like what they? I don't know, Zach
that the test cards tell us these things. I'm not
a wizard's back up, but like, but that's that's the
thing is, That's what I feel. The tension of this
movie is like I can feel Gun the studio head
like more than Gun the director with this movie, where
like this movie really needs to succeed. This movie really
needs to be a hit. People really need to love

(57:05):
this movie. And it's like if I have to shave
off five percent of like making it a good movie
to get that that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make.
Is the vibe I get with the movie, which is
frustrating to me because I would rather have a bolder,
like more ambitious, bigger swings movie.

Speaker 2 (57:20):
That's part of the criticism, the double edge stort criticism
of the last franchise, Right, It's like that's fair, like, hey,
well you know BVS.

Speaker 4 (57:28):
Right.

Speaker 3 (57:28):
But but and again, like I say, this is somebody
who acknowledges that movie has fall off, but it has
a great deal of effection for it. I love that
the movie treats Superman as this thing onto which people
project things, which is like, Zach, I worry I'm generalizing
about Superman fandom, but if you ever talk to, like
particularly online Superman fans, Superman absolutely is a blank slate
onto which people project things. Yeah, like that that's the

(57:48):
thing is that, like like Batman versus Superman, really understands that,
like the world talking about Superman is like the heart
of the movie because and again I worry, I'm a
non American talking about American stuff, But like those are
very obviously like Obama era movies about like Superman is
the embodiment of truth justice in the American way, and
like there's nothing wrong with that, to be clear, And

(58:10):
so much of the like Donner movies are full of
like American iconography. He goes to the White House in
like Superman two, he fixes the American flag on the moon,
for example. But and all that stuff is great, and
it's very quaint and like, you know, a great deal
affection for that. But like there is in the Snyder movies,
there's this real introspection of like post war on terror America,

(58:31):
is this like unipolar global superpower. What does it mean
to hold that power? And is it possible for that
power to be used for good or is that power
inevitably going to lead to further destruction? Which is like
a really introspective thing for America to ask about itself.
And like the movie can't answer that question because the
question is unanswered, right, but like it broaches it and

(58:54):
I find it really interesting.

Speaker 2 (58:55):
Well that's that's why I find that, like Suther compelling.
I didn't like Eisenberg's performance and weakness at the beginning,
really I didn't want that Lex Luthor right, But over
the years I've I've I've come around on appreciating that
what his point is, right, he's the angry atheist Lex Luthor,
and he that's he wants to prove. So I'm like,
I understand, I understand the angle of your career. What
is this Lex Luthor's motivation? He's just he's mad that,
Like I don't know, it's just so shallow that, like, I.

Speaker 3 (59:18):
Mean, the question is like, why isn't he mad at
Whole Girl or like Metamorphous.

Speaker 2 (59:23):
He says Gardner, These betty humans are bad, but Superman's
just so much that's really bad.

Speaker 3 (59:29):
But like, but like he talks about, like I'm so
upset when people mention like Galileo or confused the same
sentence as me. Like, but it's like, so, how do
you feel about, like, guy Gardner, that this person has
been chosen by like the Guardians of the Universe.

Speaker 2 (59:43):
To hold the ultimate power, mister terrific, the smartest man
on earth? Did you have to Yeah, it's like, don't
you have an intellectual problem with him?

Speaker 3 (59:50):
None of none of those guys really bothering Max Lord,
who owns his own superhero tape, like and again this
gets the weird ambivalence of the movie, where it's like
billionaires are bad like Lex Luth there but like Max
Lord opening running a superhero team is fine.

Speaker 2 (01:00:04):
Man, we could we could go another three hours.

Speaker 3 (01:00:06):
Sorry, I'm so sorry.

Speaker 2 (01:00:08):
Oh man, there's the that's the thing. So ultimately, the
vibes were good with the movie, and I think that's
what people are picking up on right, Yeah, that's the
new punk rock. I look, I'm glad people are happy
and listening.

Speaker 4 (01:00:18):
To the.

Speaker 2 (01:00:19):
Crab Choice, the Mighty Crab Choice and having a good time.
I've listened to the soundtrack. It's growing on me as well.
You know, like when I first saw there wasn't like
a particular needle drop that spoke to me the way
all the Guardians movies did. But I've since been really
listening to it and vibe into it. It's good stuff
and you know what, you want to go out and
the movie feeling good, and that's what people are are Coston.
But I just I mean, you and I both are
on the same patrere Like we wanted to like it.

(01:00:40):
We feel like I left a lot of stuff on
the table. It was too surface level. One last main
thing I want to bounce off you here is we're
talking this movie, like, what's what's it about? What is
it about? Like identity, Like, that's the crux of what
I got held onto. But if it is, what an
amazing swing and a miss with the clone of Superman, right,
because we're we have we have a movie that challenges

(01:01:01):
who are you? You're your choices, You're what you do.
You're confronted with the clone of yourself. And then he
doesn't talk and you kill him off and it's you
know he AND's.

Speaker 3 (01:01:10):
Also the only sensing creature that you kill like you
feel bad. You feel worse about killing the giant Kaju
than you do about killing your own self.

Speaker 2 (01:01:18):
People to see this is gonna be another killer, No
kill the baby. But because people say, oh, well he
knocked him into the black hole and he'll come back
as bizarre, I'm like, pick him up. People believe No,
people will truly believe this, and they're really like, oh yeah,
I'm like okay, So I'll wait for some Superman movie
years down the road, Like I was. I was really
waiting for like the post credit scene to be like

(01:01:38):
him maybe like he's stilling the bus right, But but
like I guess my point is, like I like the
part where Superman is trying to reason with them in
the baseball field. He's like, you don't have to do
this because he would That's what Superman would do, right,
But then he's confronted with a clone of himself. Why
is there no conversation? Why is you know, I thought
my parents sit me here for a reason. You don't
have to do that. Control this, you know, break free.

Speaker 3 (01:01:59):
I can be my own part. Why can't you be?

Speaker 2 (01:02:01):
It rights itself when he's confined.

Speaker 3 (01:02:03):
With the I'm resisting Joe al you resist Luther like it.

Speaker 2 (01:02:06):
Yeah, it rights itself. And it's just it's incredible to
me that they just leave all that on the table
and by the time and we all knew it was
gonna be a corner of Superman. Not one person thought
it was gonna be anything else. That they finally do
the reveal and then they fight and that's it and
he could have been anybody, and it's it's but like
nothing but like.

Speaker 3 (01:02:22):
To get to that point, Like the thing with Ultraman
is Ultraman feels like it's that all of Mirror's thing
that really bothers me about like so much modern pop
culture where everything is a reference to everything else and
everything is like a whole of images reflected back on itself,
where the image itself has no meaning, it only has
like meaning by reference to other images, where like it
feels like the Ultraman is like so much of this

(01:02:45):
movie feels like Gun is kind of grinding an axe
a little bit about like post Superman superheroes, where you
have like the Engineer, who's a character from the authority.
For example, you have Lex Luthor calling his team planet Watch,
which is a combination of like Warren l or disgraced
comic book writer Warren Ellis's storm Watch and Planetary smushed
together to like post like Superman's superhero teams like the

(01:03:08):
end of the nineties started two thousands, kind of like
darker and edge of your takes on characters. The Evil
Superman clone is like a reference the archetype of the
Evil Superman clone as seen in shows like Invincible for example,
but also The Boys, and not only that in other
media like Injustice for example, like countless iterations of this idea,
and it does feel like Gun is referencing all of

(01:03:29):
that stuff and he's tying it all back together. We
mentioned the idea that like one A one A one
A is you smashing the button on your Injustice pad
as we play, but like, does this have any meaning
outside of that? Is my question, where it's like, I
don't know that that character serves any purpose other than
to be a reference to the idea that pop culture

(01:03:53):
is saturated with evil copies of Superman. And if that's
the case, then maybe we should engage with why pop
culture is southatated with evil images of Superman. But instead
it feels like it's just kind of a cheap shot
where like, and I to be clear, I don't want
to get into the partisanship side of this, because Gun
and Snyder are collaborators. They seem to have a good relationship.

(01:04:14):
They work together on like Dawn of the Dead and
stuff like that. They did the Rick and Morty cameo together. Like,
I don't think there's any like factional stuff that's actually
happening between them, as much as like weird parasocial fandom
elements want there to be. But there is also an
element of we took the Superman with glowing red eyes,
pushed him into a bus, and then swallowed him in
a black hole, which does feel a little bit like,

(01:04:36):
you know what, We're gonna take those Snyder movies and
just put them in a black abyss where we don't
have to talk about them anymore. And it's like that's okay,
but maybe engage with that idea, Like, don't just use
the imagery of it. Don't just give me an evil,
red eyed superpowered like Superman who is evil, Like, actually

(01:04:56):
explore what that means, why we would think that wipe
up culture is fascinated with it, and play with it
or unpack it in some way rather than just using
it as well. It guess it has to be in
the movie.

Speaker 4 (01:05:07):
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:05:08):
And I think I think that is the system across
the board of this film. It's just it's just the
simplest surface level of everything we talked.

Speaker 3 (01:05:17):
About Brosnhan being like, for me, Brosnahan is the best
part of this movie, the breakout of this movie for me,
And the best scene in this movie for me, hands down,
no question, is the early interview scene. I think that
scene is fantastic. I think it's electric. It's very obviously
the scene that they did the chemistry read for with
the two of them, like it just it works, it
works really well. And it's like that is the moment

(01:05:38):
when I'm sitting down, I'm getting comfortable my seat. I'm
like this, this, this is good. I you know, he
may have landed the plane on this one. And then
after that happens. Over the remaining like one hundred minutes
of the movie, Lois has exactly one conversation with him
before their kiss. At the climax, Lois talks to him

(01:06:00):
in the apartment when they're fighting the giant purple squid outdoors,
but like they have one conversation in that room and
then like she rescues him from like minecraft hades, but
like he's not conversant to that point, They're not able
to have a conversation, and she just like goes about
her business for the rest of the movie. And then
the United at the end of the kiss, and it's like,

(01:06:20):
if you're going to put that much weight on Superman
and Lois, and like the movie begins with Superman and
Lois and the kiss is a wonderful moment. Give me
Superman and Lois, Like you mentioned the the Donner movies
like Superman one and Superman two for me for me
like really work because of that like chemistry. We've talked
so much about how great Reason is and he absolutely is.

(01:06:42):
He's incredible, But like Kidder is really phenomenal as well,
and the two of them together and rewatching those movies,
I was taken with how much of those movies is
just the two of them interacting, And I was just
I was so frustrated that it's like, you have these
two actors who bounce off each other so well, Brosnahan

(01:07:04):
incredible chemistry and like sparks and like somebody who I
want to spend time with, but she spends most of
the movie just running around after Superman and not talking
to Superman, and it's like just you are like, again,
this is the thing where like what is frustrating about
this movie is not that it is bad in the
same way that say, Brave New World is bad, where

(01:07:25):
As I said that machine is like exploding as the
movie is being made. This is like frustrating to me
because it's like it could be so much better. It's
that book report you read from a kid, and you're like,
this is so much below the standard that you have
set for yourself, like this should be a triple A score,
but at some point you just kind of got lazy

(01:07:46):
and started phoning it in, where it's like, give me
a movie that is the two of them together, Like
give me a movie that is the two of them interacting,
like Clark Kent right, this is he mentioned this being
a movie i'd identity. You mentioned this being like one
of the big themes being identity, and I'm you know,
I'm not who my alien parents made me. I am
who like my my family, the Kents made me. The

(01:08:07):
Kent's appear in two scenes of this movie. So like
it's slightly first. I do love by the way that
in the video they just put the wig on prou
A Telephis.

Speaker 2 (01:08:14):
Oh yeah, no, no attempt to teach, no attempt to.

Speaker 3 (01:08:17):
Be age if I mean that man like I feel
like I love Pruit Teiler Vance, but that man was
born at the age of like sinc five. But like
they don't spend any time there. But also like you
don't spend any real time with Clark once once you
get past that sequence of the interview, Clark is gone
from the movie.

Speaker 2 (01:08:31):
Well, I mean this is a huge if I may
cut in for a second, like, yeah, this is a
huge miss for me. I was waiting for Secret Identity.
Clark can't the charm that brings you watch those older movies,
and that's part of the character, Like it's the part
of the appeal of this of this superhero power fantasy
is like he's this guy, right, and like he's doing

(01:08:52):
them bout his way, you know. And then now, of
course Lois already know when the secret kind into Gate City,
a lot of that, but there's still opportunities for him
to be Lark can and operate and a lot of charm,
a lout of fun. That's how you kind of connect
and and you know, with the character and all that,
every day.

Speaker 3 (01:09:05):
Like you have it, you go out of your way
to create a daily planet cast.

Speaker 4 (01:09:08):
Right.

Speaker 3 (01:09:08):
You have Cat Grant, you have Steve Lombard, you have
Perry White, you have Jimmy.

Speaker 2 (01:09:12):
I had expectations here and that he was gonna interact
with these people and gonna be the he is Clark
in the glasses, and he's in one scene he shows
up to work and that's it. And then Clark came
without the glasses. He's in two scenes, one of the
Lewis's apartment, one of his house. Yeah, and that's it.
And I thought that's a huge misopportunity. You know, I
rewatched these Crystal Resarman movies all the time, and you know,

(01:09:32):
I watched them all, you know, before the new movie.

Speaker 3 (01:09:35):
Reave is stunning, Like the transformation between the two is it,
like is it Superman One has the moment where he
almost tells Lois yeah, like he just in the clothes,
he just changes his post and you're like, oh my god,
Like it's incredible. It's incredible.

Speaker 2 (01:09:49):
Even that that is incredible, But even even scenes like
when they're like in Niagara Falls and is trying to
call him out and she's like he's like super ambals here.
Oh golly, he just look around. I'm like, that's what
I want, Like not I mean in little sprink a
little round. I'm not saying it like he needs to
be an all bovie, right, But such a missed opportunity
because I think, I mean they were going for that

(01:10:11):
with with this version of Clark Kent, I think. But
then he's got the magic glasses, so does he even
need to act weird? I don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:10:17):
Again, that's the that's a very like John Burne over
explained the gag bit where it's like there has to
be yeah, there has to be a science to it,
where like the central point is that like actually nobody
looks twice at Clark Kent why they don't see Like
if you.

Speaker 2 (01:10:29):
That Bob is like I know, people like, oh, it's
just a joke. It over. I'm like, actually, that's like
core to the whole dual identity thing. And for you
to think that's dumb makes it like that a noise.

Speaker 3 (01:10:39):
That it needs that it needs explaining that.

Speaker 2 (01:10:41):
To me, that is that is the James gun equivalent
of Zack Snyder saying, Oh, we can't use trunks on
the Superman costume. Take them off. Oh the glasses are dumb,
make them magic. I mean, that's that's the James gunn
I'm like, I don't know, like, just accept the character
as he is. He's been it for eighty five years.
You know, we can the suspension of disbelief about the glasses.

Speaker 1 (01:10:59):
Now.

Speaker 2 (01:11:00):
Not to go on and on about that, but I
think that's a key part of that whole secret identity.

Speaker 3 (01:11:04):
No, but it's it's emblematic of like, yeah, it's emblematical thing.
And I mean, look, there is a broader discussion to
be had about like the role of superhero of like
secret identity in superhero movies, where I do feel like
you can make an argument that the superhier identity. The
superhero secret identity has become like less common in contemporary movies,
where like many of the Marvel superheroes do, how many
Marvel superheroes have a secret identity? Spider Man like, look, yeah,

(01:11:26):
that's it. Spider Man like lost his and regained his.
But like ant Man is like a world famous celebrity
ant Man, everybody knows that Steve Rodgers is Captain America.
The end of Iron Man is Tony Stark saying I
am iron Man. Thor is Thor like there there is
no modern secret identity thing. And even like say The Batman,
which is the movie that we both like, No, there's

(01:11:50):
like one and a half scenes of Pattinson doing like
Bruce Wayne in that as compared to like the Nolan movies,
for example, which like dedicate a great deal of energy
to like being Actually, Batman has three personnelity, one of
which is Batman, one of which is Dandie Bruce Wayne,
and one of which is actual Bruce Way.

Speaker 2 (01:12:07):
And Superman should have the same because he has Clark
Kent at the Daily Planet Superman and then you know
parents he had four actually because Clark Clark on the
farm with his parents and Kelll like in the Fortress
with Joerel and stuff, right, so like the same, Yeah,
I mean just embraced that kind of stuff. So I
think uh krn Sweat was fine. Everything I've seen of

(01:12:27):
him and interviews as a charming guy, and I like
his approach to the character and he's thinking. He seems
like a fun guy and a real nerd Fantom's a
fan of Smallville, for example, So Prop's still in there.

Speaker 3 (01:12:38):
That's what it's immediately on there, like he's obviously that
looks the next week we'll have Dawt on the podcast.
I'm talking about his favorite.

Speaker 2 (01:12:46):
Please come on. But yeah, I just think that much ironically,
much like the last two big screen Superman, the scripts
and stories underserved the actor in the role.

Speaker 3 (01:12:58):
Yeah, that's it, And like it's frustrating because like I
think the small screen Superman are doing better, like Jack Quade,
who I never would have pegged like a super Like
you look at Jack Wade like they're Superman, but he
is so good on that animated show.

Speaker 2 (01:13:11):
Jack Quaid. I got a guy I'm sick of, but
he's so damn good at everything. I can't be I
can't be sick of him.

Speaker 3 (01:13:16):
Yeah, he's he's he's everywhere, and like somehow I am
not exhausted by him and likely and he does seem
like a guy. He seems like a guy who is
at that level where he's using first of all, talking
to people who know him, he is the nicest man
in the world. And it does seem like he's at
the stage where he is using his cloud to kind
of get movies made and stuff like that, where he
is appearing in films that will help get them a

(01:13:36):
budget or something, which is great. It's it's a thing
with Petro Pascal where like, yes, Petro Pascal is overexposed,
but also Pedro Pascal is the reason that like, yeah,
Eddington has the budget that it does or that materials,
that's the shit that it does.

Speaker 2 (01:13:51):
You see Eddington.

Speaker 4 (01:13:52):
I did.

Speaker 2 (01:13:52):
I liked it quite a bit.

Speaker 3 (01:13:54):
I kind of like really liked it. I had a
panic attack. I wear like a fitbit and like every
twenty minutes it was buzzing saying check your stress. That
was a journey for different reasons because obviously the first half,
like it's proper cringe, and then like for the second
half it goes like a real direction and I will say,

(01:14:15):
I saw it with a crowd in an Irish cinema.
I was like impressed at how much the Irish crowd
was honed in on like the American references like slight
spoiler alert, but like Marjorie Taylor Green appears at one
moment and I got the biggest laugh of any moment
in the film, and I was like, we're all dialed in.
I love that I'm in a room full of dialed
in people for this.

Speaker 2 (01:14:34):
No that I had no idea where that movie was going.
It's a journey, so it's people go seek it out
if it's it's an interesting film. That's all I'm gonna
say about it, Go seek it out.

Speaker 3 (01:14:41):
Yeah, and again like like like Quaid, like past Like
it's just it's a way of getting those movies made
is appearing in them, and obviously hawklind as well. It's
phenomenal teller Hocklin.

Speaker 2 (01:14:49):
I mean, he he could, he could work on his
difference between Clark kind and Superman. That's my only criticism
of him as Clark and Superman.

Speaker 3 (01:14:56):
There is no the same guy as Zero. Like he's
but he's older and it feels like he's kind of
settled in and like I do like with that oil,
but I like that the ending arc of that show
is him reconciling the two as it were, you know,
but like to your point though, that's something that happens
at the end of the show, Like that is something

(01:15:16):
the show says for its closing notes where it does
feel like, yeah, I want like part is like is
this a broader issue with superhero media in general? Is that,
like we are so addicted to the power fantasy that
we don't like the normal part. We don't like the
part where the superheroes the normal. That's where you.

Speaker 2 (01:15:30):
Connect I mean Clark Kent. I mean maybe I'm a
small old fan here, maybe that's the problem, but like
that's you connect with the character like you like not
that not that it has to be an unrequited love
triangle every time, but like that you're in with Clark Kent,
right because he because the whole the and yes, like
the the lying to the first your love with is problematic,
just look move past that quickly. But that's the that's

(01:15:51):
the setup for this, for their relationship. And then yeah,
like Sumana Lewis, I love the backstory they gave with them,
Like lois like loved Clark and all that, and she
was kind of skeptical supermandomic that is a fresh modern
Taz with the interview.

Speaker 3 (01:16:02):
That sequence with the interview is wonderful, and I.

Speaker 2 (01:16:05):
Was like, I was like, that's that's our new, fresh
take on this relationship. This movie was like, and that's
kind of I'm so torn because, like I do, the
best scene is the interview scene, and I'm like, but
what what is there? Like what is the end with
their relationship? And we don't have didn't we don't know
we have seen it, like I don't like even.

Speaker 3 (01:16:22):
Like my adventurement to your point of not getting it
done quickly, it does get it done quickly, but it
starts with the deception like it is, yes, like halfway
through the first season she knows that he's Superman, but
like you get to have the art because it's actual
drama and it's actual attention And to your point about
it being problematic, yes, get lying to everybody around you
is problematic, to be clear, But it's also like it
allows the character to be complicated and flowed in a

(01:16:45):
way that I don't know that this movie lets its
character be complicated and flowed where like Superman is obviously
like a great guy who does wonderful things at the
goodness of his heart to protect you, Mandy, and it
is like a paragon of virtue, but having the power
doulcs of him also lying to the woman that he
loves and having to resolve that tension at some point,

(01:17:06):
because obviously he has to resolve at some point, Like
that is drama.

Speaker 2 (01:17:11):
There is a scene in Smallville season five finale likes
Luthor gets superpowers and he learns everything about Clark and
all that. Don't worry, he gets amnesia and forgets everything,
but he confronts Clark Kent. He's like, always thought you
had this strong world core, but you lie every day
to all the people around you who love and like
he like kind of calls him out on this and like, engage.

(01:17:32):
I think that's engaged with that because now that we've
moved into this postmodern narrow we are in our fiction, right, Yeah,
engage with these things that were fun in the thirties,
Like what that funny that she thinks he's a different guy,
But now it's like, let's explore that there's actually been anyway.
I think we're all picking up on the same thing.

Speaker 6 (01:17:47):
Here.

Speaker 2 (01:17:47):
I think that was like they left some stuff on
the table. They could have explored that we haven't explored
because when the Man of Steel universe, she knew he
was Superman before was Superman.

Speaker 3 (01:17:56):
And I will say, like one of my favorite little
beats in like Batman versus Superman is that like Perry
White knows that like he's Superman. Like there's a really
wonderful moment where like there's a recurring runner in like
Batman versus Men where she's keeps trying to get him
to pay for like Economy plus or whatever and he won't.
But the moment that like Coach, but the moment that
Superman's dying like across the river Metropolis like yeah, no,

(01:18:16):
you get the helicopter and fly over there right now,
lois because I know what this is. I know what
is happening.

Speaker 2 (01:18:22):
Not for a story.

Speaker 3 (01:18:23):
I do wonder about this movie where Clark Kent disappears
for three days, does anybody notice that he's gone? Like
you get the joke with Luthor where he's like, maybe
I'll kill that reporter who's always interviewing you. What's the
name Clark Kent? And it's like, I know the joke
is that like Luth doesn't think that, like it's the

(01:18:44):
John Burn thing. It's the like the one of the things,
like yeah, he runs the Annaly the figure out like
who Superman is and what Superman does when he's not Superman,
and it comes back with he's Clark Kent and loss.
That's nonsense. That just scrumples it up and throw it away.
But like even like Perry White and Steve Lumbert and like,

(01:19:04):
like is Clark carrying that little way to the Daily
Planet that he like Perry notices that he's late in
the first scene where like he shows up to work,
Perry is keeping enough of an eye on him to
notice that he's late. Nobody has noticed that he's gone.

Speaker 2 (01:19:18):
Like that's a good point that that's why they took
out the day markers, Darren, because you.

Speaker 3 (01:19:24):
Can just say, oh, it's only a day, but no,
but like you have like the script is structured in
such a way that it still reminds you. So Jimmy
Jimmy Olsen still goes like Superman's only been gone a
day and they're already massing troops at the border. Like
the script is full of references to be like just
so you can keep track of when this is happening relatively,
which is why removing those cards feels like cowardice, because

(01:19:45):
the movie is still structured to have like that five
act structure, which is a novel approach. It's interesting, it's fun,
it's a little off kilter.

Speaker 2 (01:19:54):
Release the gun cut, That's what I say. Dared hashtag
released the gun cut?

Speaker 3 (01:19:58):
Who would you campaign to do that? James Gunn studio ahead.
I don't think like, I don't think he was forced
into any of this, Like I'm not. I don't think
like somebody held a gun to his head and was
like take this out. I think, I honestly do think that,
like when you are a studio head, your priorities change.
Like as a filmmaker, Gun's job is to deliver the

(01:20:20):
best movie that he can and to fight for that
movie as a director. Right as a studio head, though,
you are responsible not only for your movie but for
other people's movies coming down the line. And again, I
like Gun a lot, and he seems like a nice guy,
and I do honestly believe that he loves the work
that he does and he loves the people that he

(01:20:40):
works with. If you're making a Superman movie, and you
know that it's box office performance and its critical reception
are going to like determine whether or not. Like Mike Watkins,
Craig Gillespie, James Mangold's probably fine, he's off making a
movie with Timothy Shallon. But say Andy Maschetti, who like

(01:21:02):
sacrificed all his credibility on the altar of the Flash.
If their future, their future careers are writing on the
fact of you making a movie that is well reviewed
and makes a lot of money, I think you take
the note from the test screenings. I think if your
test screetings tell you that people don't like the day cards,

(01:21:22):
you as studio head feel it's your responsibility to go, well,
I don't know why they don't respond to the day cards,
but they're telling me they don't respond to the day cards,
so they're gone. Like I understand the logic behind it,
and I as cynical as I am about the movie,
I'm not unsympathetic to it. If that makes sense.

Speaker 7 (01:21:41):
Crypto is a mess and belongs to another mess, which
is a Supergirl.

Speaker 2 (01:21:46):
That's right, Is that the version of Supergirl we're going
to meet in the next film.

Speaker 4 (01:21:49):
That's her. She's a mess. She's a total mess.

Speaker 7 (01:21:53):
I mean, I think as we learn that she's had
a completely different background from Superman, a much more difficult background.
He's had those wonderful upbringing by these two parents that
loved him and were very healthy, and her, her background
was much different than that, and she's ended up different
than her cousin.

Speaker 2 (01:22:12):
Supergirl. I feel like should have been a post credit scene,
not the postcredit scene that did.

Speaker 3 (01:22:16):
Okay, I didn't mind her cameo in the movie, and
I liked that it was folded in the Maritith and
I did like the Millie ull cut character, where like,
this is the thing where I see Supergirl and she
is a mess, and I look at that character and
I go, that is a character who will have an
arc Like that is a character who will grow and
change over the course of a two hour movie, and

(01:22:38):
who will be a different person by the end of
Supergirl than she is seeing her now. And it's like,
I feel like I didn't get that with this movie,
where like Superman at the start of the movie intervenes
in like an international conflict in order to stop an invasion,
and Superman at the end of the movie sends his
mates to go intervene in a foreign conflict to stop
an invasion, and it's like he has he hasn't changed,

(01:23:01):
like he's he's been through the Ringer, but he hasn't. Actually,
I don't. I didn't feel as a viewer that he
had had a real crisis of faith, where like, as
grim as things get, he's always doing the right thing.
He's always he's turning himself into the DoD When the
issue warrant for his arrest, He's not like, well, you
know what, I'm just gonna stop being Superman. He goes

(01:23:22):
and he gets Crypto when Crypto has been captured by Luther,
Like there's never a moment where like it feels like
any of this is ever going to be too much
for him, even the moment where like his father comes
out and gives them the pep talk. I don't feel
like there's a world in which like Superman goes, you
know what, mister terrific and handled Metropolis like it's fine,
I'm gonna like phone it in, I'm gonna take a

(01:23:43):
sick day. Like I don't feel like Superman goes through
anything or changes or is transformed by the events of
the movie, which and I know a lot of people
are like and again this gets into the interesting relationship
that people have with superheroes in general, but with Superman
in particular, where like, when I send out that tweet,

(01:24:04):
I get a lot of replies of people being like, yeah,
but Superman doesn't need to change, it's the world. The
world needs to change. It's like Superman is steadfast and
certain and the entire point in the movie is that
he doesn't compromise his morals for anyone. And I'm like,
I'm not asking him to compromise his morals. I'm just
asking for you to explain why this is worth two
hours of my time to watch him on this journey.
Where like you mentioned the Batman, the Batman has like

(01:24:25):
a really clear arc, Like Batman is a hero at
the beginning of the movie, he's a hero at the
end of the movie. But the reason why he does
what he does changes, which is in the start of
the movie it's about punishing people. At the end of
the movie, it's about helping people, and he's realized that
punishing people doesn't help anybody at all. Here, you have
like a gesture towards you mentioned the idea of identity.
The whole like, I'm a hero because my parents sent

(01:24:45):
me here, but like, do I really believe that? Does
he really believe that?

Speaker 2 (01:24:49):
Well, that's that's the overarching problem is tell don't show
in this movie because he's telling Lowis like, that's why
I do what I do because my parents sent me
here to do this, So I'm like okay.

Speaker 3 (01:24:59):
But in the same she also says why did you intervene?
And he's like people were dying, Lois and it's like, okay,
so you do know why you do what you did,
and it has nothing to do with your parents, Like
it's nice that your parents told you to come here,
but you do it because you have a moral obligation
to do it. Yeah, it's not like yeah, it's not
like his parents are like, uh, accept it. Go to planets,

(01:25:21):
save everybody, but don't intervene international affairs. And he's like,
you know what, I didn't intervene in international affairs because
I respect my parents. And then he learns that his
parents wanted to say the plants, Well, screw that. Now
I'm going to intervene international affairs. The original Superman has
like a similar arc where like he has this big
thing with his father where his father is like you are.
You will go to Earth and you will serve them,

(01:25:42):
and you will show them the way Kalel, but you
cannot interfere with their history exactly. That is the one
thing that you cannot do. And at the end of
that movie, he completes his arc by going, you know what, Actually,
I'm gonna make my own decision and I him in
the bluntest, most literal manner possible, going to interfere in

(01:26:05):
this planet's history so fast, so fast around the world
in the way like it's a very comic book way
of going like interfere with history like and the way
that the movie plays as well, they have like the
echo they have the echoing Marlon Brando voices. If like
that moment in like Seinfeld, where like an idea occursive
wait interfere with history? Yes, no, I but it's an arc.

(01:26:29):
It is a journey, and it like it represents him
breaking with his parents and becoming his own man in
a way. I don't know that this movie gets to that.

Speaker 2 (01:26:37):
That's exactly what I was gonna say earlier. So that's perfect.
That was perfect about that thing. Yeah, And he's grappling
with the whole thing like his father dies, his earth father,
you know. So so he hears a you're here for
a reason. He hears himself talking to his mom and
his dad's funeral about all his powers, Like it all
comes together. What's amazing? Why that movie is that they
slap that indie That was.

Speaker 3 (01:26:57):
Meant to be the ending for two.

Speaker 2 (01:26:58):
The original ending was like, oh, he stops the missiles,
Like what a what a boring ending? That because the
entire emotional because I that works for me, like him
through the power of love and grief and and and
you know, choosing a beazone man. No other Superman has
been under like the influence of his Scryptonian parents. That
it's going to reads me because twelve years of the fortress,
he decides, no, I'm gonna do this anyway. And that

(01:27:20):
makes him interesting. You know, he's because he breaks the
unbreakable rule.

Speaker 3 (01:27:24):
I mean yeah. And and like to get to the
point about like the power, because we talked about like
the thing with many people having an issue with Superman
is the question of like his powers and like that
is an expression of the ultimate form of power, the
power to literally rewrite time itself. But it is dramatically
interesting because there's a stake there. There is a character
stake in that power, which is like the key to

(01:27:47):
so many of those like super Dickree, like silver Age,
kind of like comics. Is that like Superman can do anything?
Should he do anything? Is the question?

Speaker 2 (01:27:57):
Oh man? But no, I I and you know we were.
I used to point earlier, like what do you come
back to this movie too? You think about Superman returns,
You go back to the plane rescue, the Superman the movie,
go to the helicopter rescue, or even to all of
Crystopher's performance in Marger Kid's chemistry Superman two Zah, There's
so many things you go back to this this movie.
I mean, uh again, Crypto, that interview scene like this,

(01:28:18):
like it's like when you I've never been one to
do this, Darren, But you know people like when I
buy the Blu Ray, I'm gonna stick it in and
go right to this scene and watch it. I'm not
like that. I watched the movie start to finish, but
I know a lot of people more I.

Speaker 3 (01:28:29):
Turn on television and catch it halfway through the end.
That's like as people used to watch back in the
day before streaming, before we had choices what's the ending
of Heat twenty times?

Speaker 2 (01:28:39):
But like, what do you what do you go to
in this? I guess the interview scene with the two
which is at the stars, Yeah, which is us and man,
we're we're going and going and going it. But I
think my opinion to this would have been different had
I not seen the first thirty minutes of the movie
before it came out there, right, because I feel like
everything and every marketing material, every clip, I was like
watching the first no exaggeration twenty five minutes of this film,

(01:29:02):
like I've seen all of this.

Speaker 3 (01:29:04):
But like that, and to speak in defense of that ideas, yes,
if the end of the movie were and it clearly
does work for lots of people, so like from their
point of view, it is better that they see the
first half and the second half is a complete surprise
to them and it works really well. And like I
understand the logic of that, And like if the second
half of that movie or the like the second three

(01:29:25):
course of that movie, at the second three course, that
if the if the final three course of that movie
had worked as Darren do Math's Good Sometimes had worked
as well, you know, has worked as well as like
that interview scene, I would be perfectly content. Like there's
a lot of like weapons the New Zach Kreger movie,
like the trailer for that, which, to be clear, I
would not recommend watching the trailer, recommend going in blind,

(01:29:45):
but you will probably see the trailer if you go
to cinemas. The trailer for that is cut so well
because it is so much from the opening like ten
minutes of the movie right right, and you get like
the opening minute of the movie is basically in that trailer. Yeah,
But because the rest of the movie is so delightful
and demented and weird and committed, I don't mind. I

(01:30:06):
don't mind that I saw the start of the movie
before I saw the movie. I do think that, yeah,
to the point, like I love that interview scene. I
think that infu scene is the best part of the movie.
And I think seeing that before the movie and seeing
it so prominently marketing materials, I was like, Oh, the
rest of the movie is obviously going to be this good.
If this, if they're putting this out there to start with,
if they're not worried about this undermining the movie, they

(01:30:29):
must have four or five scenes as good as this.
And I personally do not feel what they do well.

Speaker 2 (01:30:37):
These are just two opinions and a sea of affan.

Speaker 3 (01:30:40):
Yeah, to be absolutely clear, So like I worry I'm
like the Grinch spoiling prison. People love this movie, and
I'm glad they do, and like I worry I'm being
overly negative, and I worry like I am holding it
to a high standard because I am a Superman fan,
because I am a gunfan, and because like I did
have high expectations going in. I do not think this
is the worst superhero movie of the year. I just
I feel like it comes so frustrate raidingly close to

(01:31:01):
greatness that I like, I get angry when it pulls back.
And I will say again, I really liked Peacemaker the
second season because I'm watching it and I'm like, I
can feel that that is gone, not pulling back. He's
he's playing with many of the same ideas about identity,
about parentage, about like the world that you belong to,

(01:31:24):
about the internet and stuff, but he's actually like exploring them.
A part of that is having more space because it's
like four times as long, but part of it is
also because it's a lower budget show that's airing on
streaming and therefore doesn't have the pressure of launching a
gigantic multimedia franchise off the back of it.

Speaker 2 (01:31:41):
And so you know, I, well, that's why James Gull
has succeeded. He's been allowed to take risks with characters
that that people are like, you know what, do whatever
you want, James. Yeah, And there's no steaks here with
the Guardians of the Galaxy or Piece.

Speaker 3 (01:31:54):
No one will get Bloodsport, everybody's favorite superhero, Bloodsport A.

Speaker 2 (01:31:59):
Piece like that is the thing.

Speaker 3 (01:32:01):
And I guess was that unreasonable for me? Is that
a problem with me? That I was like, gun is
announced as the director of a Superman movie, and I'm like, cool,
I expect him to come in with the same creative
energy and ambition and like willingness to play with expectations

(01:32:22):
and to push buttons and boundaries and all that stuff
that he brought to literally every previous project that he
has worked on. Was it unreasonable for me to think
that you could have that freedom on Superman, the flagship superhero,
the you know, most, the second most popular at the
very least character in the DC cannon, and the cornerstone

(01:32:43):
of a gigantic multimedia shared universe, Like was is this
a me problem? Zach? That's what I'm asking. Am I
being unreasonable?

Speaker 2 (01:32:51):
I don't think so. I think we all we all
go into with our own expectations forever. Those are forms, right,
And yeah, I mean this was Harold it as the
second and coming to d C and saving Superman and
saving DC Studios and saving Warner Brothers and fair, that's
a lot of unfair.

Speaker 3 (01:33:07):
And to be clear, like, I don't think it fails,
like I don't think again, like I don't think like
this is not a failure of a movie. I don't
know that it is the breakout success that they wanted
when you read impress or like it's gonna be Barbie.
But I think it's not a failure, Like.

Speaker 2 (01:33:21):
Well, it's it's, it's it's it's not a failure. It's
not by any means a failure. Yeah, let's be clear. Uh,
it's not a runaway success. So yet again, to to
paraphrase your teet, we find ourselves in the Saints spot
we were.

Speaker 3 (01:33:35):
Where amount of Steel was. Where it's not a definitive
like this is the Superman for a generation, this is
a Superman.

Speaker 2 (01:33:42):
He just I just want a series of Superman movies, Darren,
We're never gonna get it again. I We're gonna get
They're gonna push the Batman button, right because because they
ask James go Hayes, are gonna be Superman too?

Speaker 4 (01:33:52):
Well?

Speaker 2 (01:33:52):
Did a matter of speaking, I'm working on a sequel.
It's a continuation of sorts. I'm like, can you just
tell us what we're getting? Like, part of part of
me is, like.

Speaker 3 (01:34:01):
I do think he said recently it's a Superman sequel.
I think he did confirm in the past day or two.
And part of me is like, is that a product
of internal negotiation? Like was there a sense of like
did he go to Zaslav and say can I like,
do you think there's a debate in Warner Brothers that
can he have his own Batman? Like that's the thing,
like like in this superhero fatigue climate, right because obviously,

(01:34:21):
you know, as much as we talk about it, I
think superhero fatigue is really I think the studios are
aware of superhero fatigue, and I think you can see
it in the fact that they're cutting the amount of
material that they're producing, Like, is there an anxiety at
Warner Brothers about well, you know, maybe five years ago,
we could have supported two different live action Batman, but
I don't know about now, so you have to wait
until Matt Reeves is done. And like, is it a
case that like did gun go and go? I would

(01:34:43):
like my own Batman for Andy Maschetti, and like we
kind of only have one, only one is in the budget.

Speaker 2 (01:34:48):
I hope so. I I love Batman, I will also
experience Batman fatigue if we hit yes DCU Batman, especially
for Andy Muschetti. Good lord, I want to give him
this stuff.

Speaker 3 (01:35:00):
Hey hey, hey, heyde Like again as somebody who thinks
The Flash is one of the worst movies ever made,
I like people are astounded by and they announced Andy
Bashetti is the director of the Batman movie. It's like
he filmed the unfilmable movie. Like you have no idea
how much difficulty Warner Brothers had getting the Flash across
the finishing line. Machete held his nose and was a

(01:35:21):
good soldier, and he's being rewarded like for his service.
He kept his mouth shutting, his head down, his nose closed,
and he got the job done, which nobody else could
do to that point, no doubt, and unlike and it
is a good movie and like his I think even
it Chapter two, which people are less popular, less bond of,
is an interesting movie. Like I don't hate the idea

(01:35:42):
of a machete Batman. I do to your point also
think like if we're in a superhero fatigue state and
you want like one of your Batman movies to break out,
don't saturate the market with Batman, and like this is
the thing Superman should be enough And I know Superman
fans like, and there is a tendency online to make
excuses and to say, oh, well, the Superman brand has

(01:36:04):
been like Zack Snyder ruined Superman or whatever, or like
fans remember like the Zack Snyder movie is at least
a bad taste, or like there hasn't been a really
successful Superman movie since like nineteen seventy eight or whatever.
And it's like Batman faced all of those issues where
like Batman between nineteen sixty nine and nineteen eighty nine
was a pop cultured joke. He was a punchline. Batman

(01:36:27):
between nineteen ninety seven and two thousand and five was
a pop culture joke. Like if you produce a movie
that is interesting and exciting and compelling, you can grab
the zeitguys. And I think Superman is one of those
characters who, to your point, is on lunchboxes around the
world when you say the word Superhero, you think Superman
like character. People know who the character is, people know

(01:36:49):
what the symbol means. People understand that. And if you
make a movie that can break out. Like we mentioned earlier,
Superman Returns made about as much as Batman Begins at
the time, and adjusted for an inflation, Superman nineteen seventy
eight made about as much as The Dark Knight did.
I do think that, like the right Superman movie at
the right time could break through. I don't think it
was Man of Steel. I don't think it was this one.

(01:37:11):
I don't think it was Superman Returns. But to your
point about like having but to your point about that
earlier we were talking about like having faith and like
the idea that, like Chris er Reeve is your Superman
and my Superman. But I'm open to the possibility that
at one stage I will see some new Superman and
be like, that's my Superman. You know, for years. I
guess Kevin Conroy still is my Batman. But if we're

(01:37:33):
talking live action Batman for years it was like, Michael
Keaton is my Batman, and then I saw Christian Bale.
I'm like, I've now imprinted on you like a little
baby bird. I think to suggest that like this movie
performing the way that it did is entirely due to
outside factors, or is entirely like is not representative of

(01:37:57):
the movie not being a massive success. Like we agree
it's not a failure. I also don't think it's a
runaway success. And I also, to that point, don't think
it is the most successful a Superman movie could have been.

Speaker 2 (01:38:11):
Totally agree.

Speaker 3 (01:38:12):
I don't believe that this is a ceiling for Superman
any more than I believe Man of Steel was a
ceiling for Superman. And I say that like again, thinking
both of those are flowed movies, but also thinking both
of those are movies that don't I don't. I don't know.
I don't think either of them landed in the zeitgeist.

Speaker 2 (01:38:29):
Look, DC has my money for the rest of my life.
I have seen every single theatrically released d C Comics
film in my entire adult Superpets, Yes, I have seen Superpets.

Speaker 3 (01:38:41):
You say, okay, wow, okay, cool, which I really like.

Speaker 2 (01:38:44):
It's I love Superpets.

Speaker 3 (01:38:46):
Shout out to teen Titans got in the movies that
that is honestly a wonderful movie. I didn't see that,
but between us, we've seen all of the DC movies.

Speaker 2 (01:38:56):
Live action, I guess, and I know it is a
whole live action versus animation hashtagris animation. I gree Kevin
Carny is once in Forever Batman yes as well. So look,
DC has my money, right, and I'm first in line
to see before my pre release tickets if I can
to see the next movie I'm gonna see. I saw
every movie the d CU. I'm gonna see every movie

(01:39:16):
the DCU. We could have a Dark Knight situation on
our hands. Like I liked Batman begins, and then you know,
I like Batman Begins more than I like Jims and Superman.
Then the Dark Knight comes out and changes the world.
Maybe the Superman to changes the world.

Speaker 3 (01:39:27):
We don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:39:28):
It's exciting times, right, That's what I'm kind of hoping for.
I look, there's enough here where puts me in a
place where I will happily go see a sequel of
this film. It's not everything I was hoping for. It
didn't change the world, Like you said, was it the
right movie at the right time, you know, to really
make the most out of what they could have done
with a character. Probably not. So maybe they'll do it around.
Let's just keep making the movies, please, I.

Speaker 3 (01:39:48):
Mean, that's the just to take it of man, like
like Superman and his big speech at the end of
the movie, one foot in front of the other, one
movie after another. Concent Like that is the thing. Like
we talk about emulating the success at the MCU, and
I think so many studios get lost in the emulating
the MCU after the success of Avengers and just trying
to jump straight to that. But like so much of

(01:40:09):
the success of that initial run of MCU movies and
like what became the foundation for what would be the
you know what seven billion dollar movies that Disney released
in twenty nineteen was the idea of like concentrating on quality,
where like the first Iron Man made like five hundred
million dollars, Thor made like four hundred and fifty million dollars,

(01:40:30):
Captain America made like four hundred million dollars.

Speaker 2 (01:40:32):
Like Credible Hole made like two ninety or something very low,
very low.

Speaker 3 (01:40:36):
And look We're all delighted that it eventually got a
sequel in February twenty twenty five. Long overdue, I think,
but I do. I do think that, like, if you
build a solid foundation of good movies, people will learn
to trust the brand and follow the brand, et cetera.
And I do think that, like the key is to
just concentrate on making good movies. And I am like,

(01:41:00):
I remain excited by Supergirl. I like Craig Gillespie, I
like it Tanya, I like Easy Bunny. Cruella is a
movie that exists.

Speaker 2 (01:41:11):
But like The Joker for girls, Oh yes, oh yes.

Speaker 3 (01:41:17):
I remember Coruella, but like it was COVID, it was
all a bit hazy. But like I'm excited for clay Face,
as we already mentioned there, I like Mulkins like to speak,
No even we make is quite decent as well. Like
I'm on board for these, but the key is just
make them good. Where I think one of the big
issues we mentioned about like the fact that it does
feel like the factory is on fire across the street,

(01:41:39):
and like so much of the coverage of like Marvel
Fatigue and Marvel Chaos, is the fact that it does
feel like Marvel forgot to make good movies. Like it
feels like they forgot that. The key thing is not
that Eternals sets up five different possible sequels that can
be explored in various spin offs across streaming and cinema

(01:42:00):
depending on audience reaction. It's like, just make a good movie,
Make a satisfying movie that tells a good story, that
engages the audience and creates a set of characters. They
always don't want to follow, follow wherever they end up going,
Like that is I think what is missing from that?
And I kind of hope that the DCU gets there.
I mean, look, I I'm on board. Like I liked

(01:42:23):
the first DCU project of this year, which was Creature Commandos.
I like the next DCU project of the year, which
is Peacemaker. I wasn't a big fan of this recent one.
But such as life, these things happen, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:42:36):
I'm excited from Lanterns.

Speaker 3 (01:42:38):
Oh my god, I am so excited for that.

Speaker 4 (01:42:40):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:42:41):
Look, Damon Lyn laugh, Damon Damon Lynn laugh. And like
Kyle Chandler and Aaron Pierre from like what was it
Robert rebel Ridge, Yeah, and and Krypton Krypton the sci
Fi was Aaron Pierre and Crypti he was.

Speaker 2 (01:42:54):
Have you seen Rypton? I have not highly recommend it
as I can be one over you tell me you're
making a prequel about Superman's grandpa on Krypton. That's the
dumbest thing I've ever heard. Incredible show. Cannot recommend enough.

Speaker 3 (01:43:08):
And Colin Salmon's there as well.

Speaker 2 (01:43:10):
Right, yes, I'm not gonna tell you who plays. You
know who plays?

Speaker 3 (01:43:12):
I let go Salmon fishing is on to something.

Speaker 2 (01:43:15):
Maybe check it out?

Speaker 3 (01:43:16):
Okay, all right, I love that. By the way, whenever
I'm like, you know, I would tell you which Kryptoni
needs thaying like it's odd. It's definitely odd.

Speaker 4 (01:43:22):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:43:23):
Colin Salmon also on it. Well, you watched the first
season Barrow. He's an I'll stepdad so DC Royalty. Colin
Salmon also James Bond's buddy from the Pierce proc If
they if they ever make an old man Bond movie
with Pierce Brosen, which why not, Amazon just do it.
Colin Salmon should be in what they've got like ten.

Speaker 3 (01:43:40):
Years before it enters the public domain. I'm surprised that
how restrained Amazon are being. If I were Amazon, I
paid that much for James Bond, I'd be like, turn
on the content machine.

Speaker 2 (01:43:50):
The The Felix Lider TV show will start any day
now on Amazon.

Speaker 3 (01:43:54):
Jeffrey Wright is already under contract.

Speaker 2 (01:43:57):
Well, Darren, this is This has been fantastic man. It's
been a while since we talked, and we can go.

Speaker 3 (01:44:01):
On and on and on, and as we reached the
fourth hour, I think that there's a reason why we
do this so infrequently, but it's a delight. I love
it so much.

Speaker 2 (01:44:09):
Absolutely, we'll find it time to do this again more frequently.
But in the meantime, if people want to find you
and all your hot takes, like Dances of the Wolves
is a Western, where can they find you in your
work online?

Speaker 3 (01:44:20):
Now, since we've had this conversation, begin working on a
book called Dances with Wolves as a Western. I'm shopping
around for a publisher. If if any of your listeners
would like to recommend one, I'd love to talk to them.
But yeah, you can follow me on Twitter, on Blue Sky,
Darren Underscore Mooney, Darren dot Mooney on those forms. I
primarily work at Second Wind, which is a collective of

(01:44:40):
critics we spun off from the old site The Escapist
after some shenanigans. There followed the editor Nicolandra, along with
the critic, the game critic Yatzi cREL Shaw. Just incredible
bunch of people, really incredibly talented creators. I'm very glad
to be part of it. I am their critic at
large or man about town, or man at large and
critic about depending on how you classify. I deal with

(01:45:02):
like pop culture, I deal with film, I deal with television.
If you subscribe to their patreon, I write like two
columns a week, every Friday and every Monday, and I
also do a video every second week, edited by either myself,
the wonderful Omarramed or the fantastic Jesse Swaps. You can
check those out on YouTube. Those are called the Backdrop.
We're very proud of those videos. Aside that, yeah, you
can find me. I write it the Irish Independent. I've

(01:45:23):
written a Polygon. If you're in Ireland, I'm on radio
and occasion I'm on like news Talk or Q one
O two, So yeah, check all those out, Darren.

Speaker 2 (01:45:31):
It has been a pleasure. I always enjoy your takes,
either on your websites, your reviews, or your your tweets,
which occasionally go viral, and it's been like I have
to talk to Darren a while and boom, there's he's gone.

Speaker 3 (01:45:41):
Viral's capable there like everywhere that Zach's is out walking
and there's a billboard saying there's a dance of wolves.
Is a Western shakes it head and they'll print anything
these days.

Speaker 2 (01:45:52):
No, but this has been fantastic. We'll definitely later and yeah,
everybody go check out Darren and his work online. But
until next time, everybody, always hold on to Smallville and
all this other stuff Always hold on too. Smallville is

(01:46:40):
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Smallville Torch Exclusive #6 - Darren Mooney (Part 2)

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Smallville Torch Exclusive #6 - Darren Mooney (Part 2)