Top 10 Episodes: #4 Memoria

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm John Glover. I was Lionel Luther on Smallville and
I will always always hold on to Smallville and I hope.

Speaker 2 (00:11):
You all do.

Speaker 3 (00:11):
Two. Welcome to Always hold on to Smallville. In this podcast,

(00:59):
we've talked about each in every episode of the Young
Superman Show, the ran from two thousand and one to
twenty eleven on the WB and the CW. I'm your host,
Sach Moore, and we're back with our top ten episodes.
That's right, we're determining the top ten episodes of Smallville
as voted by you, the listeners, and this time the
number four entry Memoria, one of the most universally praised

(01:27):
episodes of Smallville for good reason and whose fingerprints are
all over it. But Al Goff and Miles Malar wrote
it and Miles Malar directed it. So who knows these characters,
these versions of these characters, better than these guys. And
this is just a definitive Lex Luthor story, his relationship

(01:48):
with his father, his mother, his brother who died when
he was a baby, Things that have been hinted at,
and things have been working towards. This entire series pays
off continuity. Like everything with Julian doctor Garner Summerhold Institute

(02:08):
sets up new continuity with Clark being put in the
spaceship learning the name of his mom. I mean, this
is just such an amazing hour of television, and it's
not number one on this list, and you know, it's
really not number one on my own personal top ten list,
which always changes, but Memorial is always on that list,
let me tell you. But even though it's not number one,

(02:29):
if I had to show people one episode of Smallville,
I would show them this one now out of context
with all this payoff payoff for people. I don't know.
That's hard to say, but I think it's an extremely
compelling story, regardless if how you cut it. And again,
when Smallville is at its best, it's these parallels between
Clark and lex Right, They're literally going to go through
the exact same procedure here they have these definitive memories

(02:52):
about their mothers. It's just an amazing hour of television
and it's no surprise that it finds itself here on
the top half of our top ten list. Let's look
back on what we gave Memoria on the letter grade scale.
On the podcast Proper Memoria had myself and Matt Latham.
I gave it an A plus and Matt gave it

(03:13):
an A plus. So can't get much higher than that. Literally,
cannot get higher than that on our letter grade scale here.
So here on the top ten episodes, I am once
again joined by Lance Laster from Always hold On to Arrow,
Victoria Malay, Matt Truix from Lewis and Clark, the new
podcast of Superman, and many of the podcasts here on

(03:35):
the Always hold On To network and Patreon, and Matthew Rocco. So,
without further ado, let's discuss the number four episode of
Smallville Memoria.

Speaker 4 (03:47):
On the WB Wednesday Tends My players Lex must gothage
for the part end when.

Speaker 1 (03:53):
To say.

Speaker 5 (03:55):
Small full Night on the WB Wednesday.

Speaker 3 (04:02):
Memoria. Looking at our top ten list from all of
us moret is on my top ten list, it's on
Lance's top ten list, it's on True's top ten list,
it's on rocu's top ten list. But Victoria, it's not
on your top ten list? Did you forget about this episode?
That's my only exponation.

Speaker 2 (04:23):
I don't know what possessed me not to put it
on this one, because it also has like the pre
workers that of like Naked tom Welling was like spicy
And then this episode has always stood out to me
because it's one of my favorite uses of music on Smallville,
which is when they I guess is like the most

(04:45):
emo girl from the early aughts common of all time,
and it wasn't emo and stupid because I thought they
used it so beautifully, but using My Immortal as the
last song to play out the episode, I thought, like
that has always stayed with me, like one of the
best uses of pop music on that show.

Speaker 5 (05:02):
Yep, it was really timely at the time too, wasn't
that like it was really new.

Speaker 2 (05:06):
Yeah, I think that's why I did it doesn't feel like,
oh it doesn't. They timed it really well.

Speaker 3 (05:11):
Evan essence was mainstream. I mean it was. They were
in DAREDEVI well, like most of their songs. And actually
there are two versions of My Immortal they used, like
the like the acoustic piano one on Smallville. Then there's
like these the hard rock we love the rock and yeah,
I know at the.

Speaker 5 (05:26):
End very like call Me when You're Sober or whatever.

Speaker 2 (05:28):
I love God, that's such a good song though song.
I mean again, I just love those memes where it's
like me as a thirteen year old listening to like
my Immortal and then it's like like one of the
fish from SpongeBob being like, oh, this is so real,
thirteen and you haven't lived or experienced like most of
us haven't lived or experienced like any hardship. So yeah, no, no,

(05:51):
I don't know why I left this one out. I
think I was just.

Speaker 5 (05:55):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (05:57):
It was part of that seven weeks so your memory.
They got a race Victoria so trucks. Why is this
in your top ten?

Speaker 5 (06:04):
Well, I just looked this up. This is my top one.
This is my number one top of the list for me,
as far as like the Lex Luthor story of it
goes for me, there is no better episode than just
kind of encapsulating what this show is trying to do
with him than this. It is a relatively good man
that has so much trauma in his life, both as

(06:27):
an adult and as a child, and it all comes
to a head here, and like, I feel like this
episode not only informs everything that's come before it, but
it informs everything about the character that goes on from here.
It like it's just this terrible, terrible tragedy that happens
to him. As a kid and as a result of it.
It's not his fault in the least, but it brings

(06:48):
him to this life where he will never truly be loved.

Speaker 2 (06:51):
By tectomic shift.

Speaker 5 (06:52):
It's absolutely and we don't know about it, and he
doesn't know about it untill so long, and it just like,
of course he goes dark after this, you know, like
how could you not? How the hell do you come
back from that? That's why I love it.

Speaker 4 (07:08):
Yeah, I kind of piggybacking up at your point. It's
just like Lex kind of finally realizes, like why is
my life like this? And then he realizes why his
life is like this? And then that informs the decisions
he makes in the future. Is this realization and these
memories and like especially that last one, and it says
so much about like he and his relationship with his father,
and it's interesting. We get to see multiple sides and

(07:29):
multiple different facets of Lionel and Lex's relationship as father
and son. In this episode. We get to see when
he turns and actually like you know, immediately begins to
hate Lex. But at the beginning, we get to see
Lionel being a good father and supporting, you know, his son,
who's you know, his heartbroken because you know, people didn't
come to his birthday party. That is the one time

(07:50):
we've seen Lionel being like a positive role model figure,
and it's striking. It's jarring because every other time we
se him on the show, he's up to no good.

Speaker 2 (07:58):
And it's also kind of heartbreaking too, because like, yeah,
he had the potential, he was able to do that.
It wasn't like he was this like weird sociopath the
whole time. I mean, he's definitely like sociopathic, but like
when you see like the seeing that glimmer of him
being a decent father just makes everything else like the
more heartbreaking.

Speaker 4 (08:16):
Yeah, you see that he was capable of love, right,
and then like you know, which is why it hurts
so much when Lex is like, yeah, you might have
actually loved me, It's like that love immediately stopped. And
then Lex never got that from anybody after like as
soon as that happened, he never got it from anybody.
And so Lex's whole thing is like he wants to
be love. You're looking for love and acceptance and he
just can't get it.

Speaker 2 (08:36):
And it's also to add to the tragedy he is
so capable of love because you see like the fact
he yeah, and sacrifice, like the fact he covered for
his mother.

Speaker 4 (08:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (08:47):
Oh, I mean, but then that's just such a huge
scar to bear, and you understand why someone might start
building up walls after that.

Speaker 3 (08:54):
So, Roco, why is this episode in your top ten list?

Speaker 6 (08:57):
Memoria is in my top ten list because every element
of production, every element of characterization, it's to me, it's
one of the most powerful episodes of the entire series.
It's the writing of Lex Luthor and Lionel, obviously two
of my favorite characters on the show, to see what
started the seeds of their animosity as father and son,

(09:19):
and to go back and to see this almost Shakespearean tragedy,
which was really beautiful. I thought, I remember when I
first watched it and moved me so much. It felt
so sad for Lex's character and even for Lionel, which
is hard to do. So every element of it, just
going back to their character arcs, how it plays into
the larger story of Lex's character and the season long

(09:41):
story in season three, to get to see when they're
at their peak odds with each other, to go back
and see the actual love that they had was just
a really beautiful thing. And I just thought every element
of it, from the writing to the acting, which I
thought was Emmy worthy for both John Glover and Michael Rosenbaum.
The directing, I thought it was incredible.

Speaker 5 (10:02):
Miles Miller.

Speaker 6 (10:02):
It's just the way that he shot it. It was
like Citizen Kane meets It was so good.

Speaker 5 (10:09):
It's so incredible.

Speaker 3 (10:11):
Miles Miller, writer and director, has singular vision. I mean,
I'll co creator the show. So who knows these characters,
these version of these characters better than him? Right? They
played their strength in this episode the Luther's right lotas
and two scenes and then Clark's like, why don't you
just whyn't you stay away for a while?

Speaker 5 (10:25):
So sit down?

Speaker 3 (10:30):
And then really, I mean it's Clark, Lex and Lionel,
and then of course the mothers the whole key in
the you know, Victoria, you were talking about my immortal right.
They ended that's a mother's love. Like the theme is
so strong that mother's love never dies. Love never dies,
that's right, Laura. So just just from start to finish,
it's brilliant.

Speaker 5 (10:44):
Can we talk about to the shift that we see
in Lionel, because like he's a good father. In that
scene in the Birthday, see him where there's nobody there
and he's just like seemingly making up the story about
the night and the dragon out of nowhere. And then
the next time we see him, Julian isn't in and
he's cold. He's recognizable as the Lionel we know. Is

(11:05):
it truly like was Lilian right? Is it truly just
the fact that now I don't have to put all
my eggs and carrying into this, you know, in his perception,
this soft boy that I had first, this this you know,
young person with feelings and all of this, Like do
now I get too focus on the new light of

(11:25):
the Luther lion you know?

Speaker 3 (11:27):
Yeah, I think part of Lionel's deal with lex has
ever since he got well, even before the meter show
right in the first scene of the series, really when
you see him, he's like, you gotta be strong. You
can't go through life through eyes closed. So he always
thought he was soft, and then with the meter shower
like he was bald, so he's like, well, this guy's
a freak. This guy's damaged goods, you know. So at
the point you always saw having a second son was like, oh,
this is my chance to have, you know, a normal

(11:49):
sun or someone I can really mold in my image.
And we see that throughout the show, like when Lucas
Luther comes on for an episode and ever again in
the alternate universe, right Clark with her, it becomes his
favorite son.

Speaker 5 (12:02):
Good call, Good Call.

Speaker 3 (12:04):
I like how it's kind of a reckcon because they said, oh,
my mom gave me this before she died, right, But
at the same time it's it's not because Line was like, oh,
your mom got this for you, but she's tired right now,
so I'm gonna tell you this story. So I thought
that was a really smart way to make that a
bonding moment between the two of them. And then who
has that box? By the way, does Clark still have it?

Speaker 5 (12:26):
I think, right, I don't know. He never gives it
to Lana, doesn't. He just keeps the necklace in there
for a second.

Speaker 3 (12:34):
I believe in season six, when Lona is staying with
him for some reason, going through all Clark's stuff, you know,
as you do, but you're in someone else's room, I
think she finds the necklace, the cured necklace inside the box.
I don't know sure, It's just like, why would Lex
get this away? I guess back then he was really
desperate to be his friend, like, hey man, this is

(12:55):
really important to me, but I want you to have it.

Speaker 2 (12:59):
Didn't they say that all of these things, all of
these memories were repressed, so he might not have known
the significance of it.

Speaker 5 (13:08):
Why would he repressed no one coming to his birthday?
That's so weird?

Speaker 3 (13:13):
Is that not everybody's worst nightmare?

Speaker 2 (13:15):
When they yes, I almost like didn't want to watch
the episode when it's I was like, oh, great.

Speaker 5 (13:19):
It's heartbreaking. It's really awful.

Speaker 7 (13:22):
Because as a kid, that's your greatest fear, your greatest
you know, I had a birthday two months ago and
that was my greatest fear.

Speaker 2 (13:28):
And then but also I was just no, that made
me think we were talking about the mothers. It was
so interesting because like I think also a really interesting
parallel in this episode is like the mother's love because
like the mothers are you know, like stereotypically weirdly like
typically like the softer parent or like the more nurturing parent.

(13:49):
But then I thought it was so interesting with with Laura,
it also like humanized. That's like the first time we
see Jarrell as like and we don't really see him,
but like we conceptualize Jerell as not like an evil presence.
So I think that's really because like we are and
we were just talking about how we get that with Lionel,
so it's really interesting that we also get that on

(14:10):
Clark's end with Jerrell too, Like it's through Laura and
this revelation about Laura that we realized that Jerell is
not just evil Terence Stamp.

Speaker 5 (14:19):
Voice, right, right, that's true, yeah, Clark.

Speaker 3 (14:22):
Clark even says that in the episode, it's like I
always thought they were monsters, which is crazy, but I
understand why he because we know Jorell and Laura from
other Superman things from his perspective, of.

Speaker 5 (14:30):
Course, you yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (14:32):
But speaking of that, so, I thought it was really
clever what they did was instead of like a real flashback, right,
they made it like a memory. Yes, and they actually
did some research of like what memories were children. That's
why it's all like swirls and pink and and it
saves them a lot of budget, but it makes sense psychologically. Yes.

Speaker 5 (14:48):
Now, can we geek for a second, and like, is
they close up on like the hands of Jerell and
Laura as they're pulling away from the ship and she's
got that gold ring on it. Is that not like
a flame bird or night wing reference to like old
krypton comics.

Speaker 3 (15:06):
It could be, It might be, but the look of
this scene was influenced by the Birthright comics by Mark
Wade at the time, and it's almost like a frame
for frame, pretty much like the clothes they're wearing, the
rings on their hands. Interesting though, part of the rules
of Smallville at the time is you can't show other Kryptonians,
so they got around this by just showing.

Speaker 5 (15:23):
Hands and the.

Speaker 6 (15:26):
Keys.

Speaker 3 (15:27):
The key, the key, the.

Speaker 5 (15:31):
Chef's.

Speaker 3 (15:31):
This episode is so full of little continuity bits, right,
like the key of the ship, the ship, the lights
come on when he turns on. Other things too, like
when Clarke is worried about likes of the beginning, they
bring out the continuity right. He's like, well, when I
found you out on the Root eight last year, I
questioned your sanity and Rinel pulls out the tape from

(15:53):
from Asylum. I know your secret. I'm like this somebody
has been watching this season and paid attention.

Speaker 4 (15:58):
Yeah, anyway, Yeah, it was there's like how often have
you watched that tape?

Speaker 2 (16:03):
Not to bring another fandom into this, but it I
think there is honestly really something to be said when
the show's creator writes and directs the episode. Yes, yeah,
because I just know in this with Glee, I just
remember I wrote a paper on Glee in college and
I was I had to like cite all the episodes
I referenced. I remember, I was like, all the good episodes,

(16:25):
or in my opinion, the best episodes of the series
were all written and or directed by Ryan Murphy, and
then like everything gets trashy and it's like not Ryan.
So I feel like I just but it's I feel
like that's the same thing with this, Like it's no
one is going to have more care than one of
the co creators of the show.

Speaker 5 (16:44):
Totally.

Speaker 6 (16:45):
Yeah, that's a really good point you're bringing out. It's
like when you bring in something like Breaking Back, it's
like that Vince Gilligan that he's with the show from
start to finish and he directs several key episodes, you
see that vision carried out throughout it.

Speaker 5 (16:59):
And with Small Bill.

Speaker 6 (17:00):
It's like, this is clearly like this whole episode is
the DNA of early small film.

Speaker 5 (17:07):
It makes me very sad that we lose these guys
after season seven, you know, yeah, and then their involvement
goes away so much because, like you look at something
like like all those shows or Ron Moore or Whedon
or whoever, and it's just like when when the creator
sticks with it, they get to keep mining these things
throughout the seasons and then into a hopefully satisfying finale.

Speaker 3 (17:29):
I was surprised that Miller never directed and wrote anything again.

Speaker 2 (17:34):
He was like this, Oh no, I made it perfect.

Speaker 5 (17:36):
I can't do.

Speaker 3 (17:37):
Exactly just walking away.

Speaker 5 (17:43):
I have to stop.

Speaker 6 (17:44):
Yeah, oh, there there's always that, like on that direct
directing on the Companion book when wherever books are sold,
as you say, John Glover says, there is like a
some sort of disagreement on the first day of shooting
with him and Miles Miller, and then he wanted to
go one way, Miles wanted to go another, and then
he went Miles his way, and he instantly knew Miles's
way was the way to do it. And I've he

(18:06):
never specifies what it was, but I'm just always super
curious what that could have been.

Speaker 5 (18:11):
There are so many distinct moments from him in this
episode hard to even imagine.

Speaker 4 (18:15):
Yes, with some of these creators, like you just kind
of kind of have to trust their knowledge and their
insight because a lot of the times it's the correct one.

Speaker 3 (18:24):
Well, it was very abitious of him to write and
direct this episode totally.

Speaker 2 (18:28):
I just looked it up and I think technically it
is co written by Alfred and Miles and then direct
it by Miles, So I don't want to not give
Alfred his due.

Speaker 4 (18:37):
I think this definitely gave them like confidence to kind
of like do their own thing once they left, because like,
did any of you guys watch Into the bad Lands.

Speaker 5 (18:44):
No, but I hear it's pretty good.

Speaker 4 (18:47):
It's really good. There's lots of kind of nods to
Small but like the style is very similar in a
lot of ways. And the funny thing I told Zach
this like several times, like when I was watching the show,
but like they love the use of the octagon as
a shape for stuff, so it's all over the place
just like it is.

Speaker 2 (19:03):
I just would never be able.

Speaker 3 (19:04):
To doctor Gardner right continuity again.

Speaker 2 (19:10):
Yeah, and they mentioned past Freaks of the Week. I
was like, what show am I watching?

Speaker 3 (19:15):
Yeah, this is crazy. This is what small buls should
have been. This is like literally like I cannot poke
holes in this like I always uly do for fun,
Like it's so tightly written.

Speaker 5 (19:24):
Oh, there's nothing wrong with this episode.

Speaker 2 (19:26):
No, now that there's like one, now that we're a
little lighter, I'm like everyone knew Julian was gonna die
because his name started with J right, like.

Speaker 5 (19:36):
You don't belong here, you can't sit with us.

Speaker 2 (19:38):
He wasn't gonna he wasn't gonna be a long lasting
thing because he didn't have an l. It's funny, one
of these things is not like the other.

Speaker 4 (19:49):
Well, hey, Lex's name isn't Lex either, I mean it's Alexander.

Speaker 5 (19:54):
Okay, what do they come and call him? Lean?

Speaker 3 (20:00):
Well that's that's a good point. And you know you
think this would be the last time we see Julian,
but no, he's let's.

Speaker 2 (20:05):
Get weird with it, and like, let's take a beautifully
done episode and like beautiful like pillar of a character
and just make it real weird in about.

Speaker 5 (20:19):
Four years, every inch of story out of it you
could possibly small.

Speaker 3 (20:24):
It goes to weird places, it goes for ten years.
We accept that, but also that's a bit of a
reccon too, right, but it works because Lex didn't know this, right.
He thinks Julian died from SIDS, and that's something they
mentioned in season one, but pulling all the deep continuity.

Speaker 2 (20:37):
Yeah, and also like I think maybe because the retcons
actually like check out, like like I don't know, like
the baby like SIDS is heartbreaking, but it happens, and
it's also like, yeah, a very convenient but believable explanation
for why this baby died without any.

Speaker 5 (20:53):
Trauma too, like ersually, if you're billionaires and can't really
get into this, I'm sorry. Do I not remember how
Julian came back? Was he not a clone? Okay, don't
scare me. I was like, did he? Did the kids survive?

Speaker 2 (21:08):
I loved one small hole, But one thing I loved
was that they never show I think you see it
for a split second, and I was kind of angry
about it. They never showed Julian like once he's been
suffocated in the crib, and I thought that was so brilliant,
and I you know, like it was a technical thing
because it's just a baby doll, probably, but like I thought,

(21:31):
it's like the hitchcocky and thing where you never let
the audience see it because what they're imagining is always
going to be you, and you have such great You
see him for a second when Lex, when Lex discovers
that Lilian did it.

Speaker 5 (21:45):
Yeah, it's just long enough to really make an impact though.

Speaker 3 (21:49):
That slow motion pillow, Yeah, that's the that's what really
does it exactly. And her.

Speaker 6 (21:56):
That little frame that I guess they I read they
fought to get that little frame in there that really
worth it, like they wanted it was the power of
just that little second of it.

Speaker 2 (22:07):
Yeah, But I was just like, yeah, No. I also thought, like,
it's funny. I'm not here. I don't want to like
criticize a major fandom. I'm complimenting Smallville. I'm just like,
it's so crazy because there's I think there's two certain
superhero shows now that I can't get into because they
just feel so cheap compared to Smallville. And it's because
of episodes like this that are so beautifully shot and

(22:30):
so well acted and so just well made. And I
want to say one thing and then I want to
talk about transitions. Also, another reason why you don't show
the baby doll is because you have these really good
actors like also like I mean John Glover's John Glover.
But like also those two guest stars as young Lex
and Lilian, you don't need to show the baby doll
because they're giving it all to you, like they don't
need it. And then I also thought the transitions into

(22:53):
the memory were brilliant because they were like I think
that was probably the most minimal of CGI and the
fact that they were all done practice.

Speaker 3 (23:00):
I was just like, yes, beautiful, Yeah, they all most
of that was done in camera with a couple of additions,
but that that's so it gets you in that whimsical
mindset of Lex because it's not a flashback in like
a story. It's like his mind flashing back. And it's
so it's so cool to use the visual language of that, Yeah,
to get you into that mode, because it'd been so
easy just in like a uh, you know, an ad

(23:21):
ad dissolve.

Speaker 5 (23:24):
But then but like, yeah, the darkness and then especially
those lights on him for the first time that we're
in the baby's room there, like that is so haunting,
and then and then Lionel to bring him out of
it there. But yeah, I know, you're absolutely right, Victoria,
It's so cool.

Speaker 2 (23:37):
Yeah, I thought it was just like a lesson in
transitions on the screen.

Speaker 3 (23:41):
It was brilliant.

Speaker 6 (23:42):
The transitions are incredible. What whenever, like literally whenever I
have to shoot transitions in a film of any kind
in terms of flashbacks, always going back to memorial.

Speaker 3 (23:57):
Speaking of the guest stars real quick. This is something
that always confused me because I thought we needn't see
Lily until this episode, right, but Lex had red hair,
and all these women Lionel are into have red hair,
like Tess's mom in season one, Martha Martha Kid. Yeah,
And I'm like, well, sure, surely Lily and Luther's gonna
be redhead, and she's not.

Speaker 5 (24:17):
Yeah, that is kind of weird.

Speaker 6 (24:19):
But then like later when she comes back as you know,
in like Blexsmiths and stuff, it looks like she has more.

Speaker 3 (24:26):
They corrected that later, like we'll just make it red
when she's a ghost.

Speaker 5 (24:28):
I guess fine, No.

Speaker 3 (24:30):
It's just the thing I noticed because I just in
my head, I always assumed she was gonna be a redhead.

Speaker 6 (24:34):
But anyway, oh, maybe the redhead thing is the thing
Lionel can't have. So it's like he's got a brunette,
but he's secret.

Speaker 3 (24:41):
Okay, so that's why.

Speaker 5 (24:44):
He's with Rachel Dundley and stuff. Rachel.

Speaker 4 (24:49):
Another interesting thing that I noticed this last time that
I watched the score really really good.

Speaker 8 (24:54):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (24:54):
I was very impressed because normally, like you know, the
scores was kind of whatever a lot of times, but
you could tell this time they they made it special. Yeah,
and there's lots of callbacks to like, you know, other
things that like that I realized from like from classical
music and other type of things, but like the especially
the scene when Clark is being submerged into the tank.
That is some gorgeous brass writing that was going on there.

(25:15):
So I was like, well done, well done, Yeah cool, Oh.

Speaker 5 (25:18):
See you said that, And I thought of that like
kind of twinkly like panon music and the oh that
too is exactly.

Speaker 4 (25:25):
Like you know, making it, yeah, making it sound like
a mobile. But then like also like when young Lex
is coming up the stairs with the food and then
all of a sudden he hears the baby screaming and
then the piano starts going like all these distances and stuff.
I was like, oh, that's brilliant, that's great. Yep.

Speaker 6 (25:37):
I think it's one of the best scores. And was
it just me or probably not. But when you know,
when when the soundtracks came out with Mark Snow Music,
I was like so trying to find the score for WRE.
I don't think it was on there if I remember correct.

Speaker 3 (25:50):
I don't think really there's only like a like a
two disc set out of ten years of music. So
I would I would totally buy like the complete Smallville
music box set maybe one day.

Speaker 5 (26:00):
So, oh would you you're kidding?

Speaker 3 (26:03):
Well, you don't think I would not joke you by
the complete Birds of Brain box. It'd be like cheaper
for you.

Speaker 5 (26:09):
Right, can we talk about just it's a stupid thing,
But like Lex is in a gray coat.

Speaker 7 (26:17):
Guys is a great coat a great coat too. It
feels like he's actually like working through stuff and getting lighter.
And then I didn't really catch it untill I watched
it for this, but like, the gray coat is very
much reminiscent of the gray robe that baby Les is
in when he sees him in the last thing.

Speaker 5 (26:34):
It's an interesting choice for this episode.

Speaker 3 (26:38):
Yeah, this is like the only maybe one other time
we see him where it's like this thick, whole, you know,
gray coat. Usually he's in his black trench coat, just
like his dad's nice to see him.

Speaker 4 (26:47):
Yeah, yeah, well there's always purple.

Speaker 3 (26:49):
Well, speaking speaking of clothes, uh yeah, I do want
to get back to the thing we mentioned very early,
like doctor Gardner, I don't know, some forty year old doctor.
He's like instructing his assistants to tear all the clothes
off of like seventeen year old Clark and a tub
and his underwear.

Speaker 2 (27:04):
I was like, love, wait, I'm not watching a fan thic.
Oh okay, cool, fine, Like, well, no, it's so funny
because I think I've said it on an episode of
the podcast before, because when I was I watched the
show when I was like twelve, and I was just
so like, oh my god, he's so beautiful. Like I
just like didn't I didn't have the same like periphery

(27:25):
and like awareness. But like, since revisiting this show, I
was like, oh my god, Zak No, I understand now
why there was all this like slash fan fiction between
Clark and Lax. Oh oh I get it.

Speaker 3 (27:39):
Now, help me Lax at the end.

Speaker 5 (27:43):
That's great, you guys.

Speaker 6 (27:45):
Remember on the commentary too, on that note where Miles,
Miller and Ell and Michael are like like they just
always are in awe of their actors, like beautiful physiques,
and they're just like on that part where they're ripping
Tom's like Miles is like I think it was on
this college Chary. He's like, oh God, like people just
this beautiful. Just they shouldn't exist. Michael's like, look.

Speaker 5 (28:08):
At those.

Speaker 3 (28:10):
Had to like shave like his chest and all that,
like right, like to have the illusion of being Roseamund
was in great shape this season this episode and then
in an exile and he's running around on the island.

Speaker 6 (28:22):
Workouts are still going on for him.

Speaker 2 (28:26):
I just wanted to talk about the moms real quick.
She's so good in everything, but like that I just
loved a net O tool just like giving you the
heart you need in this scene. And I thought that
scene was so beautifully written in the barn between Clark
and Martha and just like so beautifully handled and like
I'm not adopted that I know, but just like I'm

(28:48):
way too much like my parents biologically and behaviorally. But
I think like that scene where he's like, that was
my mom and he goes, I wish he could she
could have met you. Like I just thought it was
so beautifully handled. And then was also when she has that,
it's just such a lesson in like subtext, like between
Lionel and Martha and he's like you can always come back,

(29:11):
and he's trying to express sympathy for.

Speaker 4 (29:15):
Exactly yeahand I know your best your Jonathan.

Speaker 2 (29:23):
And she's like he's not weak.

Speaker 5 (29:28):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (29:28):
And then also like the guest star that, like, I
just feel like the guest star game on this was
one hundred percent. And because also the woman who played Lilian,
like again, like it's different for an actor who's had
three years with this character to like kind of take
it to this level. But when you're coming in like
relatively cold and you have to be on par with everyone,
Like my hat's off to those guest stars.

Speaker 4 (29:51):
It'd be interesting to see what Lilian's like, you know
what she used for research. I was getting like some
serious k Corleone vibes total of her, you know, especially
like you know what you think about case. It's like
I didn't want to bring another child into this world.
When she's you know, yelling at Michael and Godfather bar too. Yeah,
that's essentially what Lilian was saying, you know about like
you know, how she how she wasn't like, you know,

(30:11):
embracing you know, Julian when he was crying. Yeah, that's
kind of what I was thinking. And I was like, oh,
this is this is good, Like it's like your smiles
get into The Godfather too, all right.

Speaker 3 (30:20):
That not inflicts psychological scars on my children?

Speaker 1 (30:23):
Ye?

Speaker 5 (30:23):
Yeah that And and this sounds dumb because it was
still a show on the WB and all that, but
like there are Shakespearean levels of like family drama going on.

Speaker 8 (30:32):
With the Loop.

Speaker 5 (30:32):
Absolutely so like actors like that. And I think that's
why John Glover had so much fun for so long,
to just get to dive right into that. And she
must have seen that subtext and seen a bit of
what what Glover does on his good days and and
there you go when he's not like making Krypton and
keys or whatever.

Speaker 2 (30:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (30:48):
And on that note too, Uh, it just brings to
mind a very Godfather moment now that you say that
lands because it's like fast forward to season seven and
they have another ashback Pavilion and Lionel straight up says, uh,
don't ask me about my business.

Speaker 5 (31:05):
Yes, exactly, business.

Speaker 3 (31:08):
I forgot about Veritas flash. Don't ask me about my business.
K final thing that I that I would say of
this episode is that I really like how well it's
I like it, but it's also hilarious how like assertive
Clark is in this episode he follows let to this,
you know, his summer hall, and Lex goes in. He
comes out to his car, He's gonna get in the

(31:29):
Clark just comes outnumber what do you do with their lax?

Speaker 4 (31:37):
Well, we laughed at how like he didn't give him
a ride afterwards, like he just drives.

Speaker 2 (31:41):
Well, I figured like he thought he had a car, right.

Speaker 3 (31:45):
How the hell did you get your Cark? He's like,
he's not offering him a ride this time. Ultimately, though,
and this is this is a very dark question. I
guess if you were Lex, right, would you have done
the same thing? Would you have protected your mom and
took the blame fam I mean, I know, I.

Speaker 2 (32:01):
Will, I think I I don't know, but I got
when he I got the explanation because when he said,
like he's like, my like, my mom would have been
the lamb to the slaughter, Like you couldn't have gotten
rid of me because I was your only heir.

Speaker 6 (32:16):
And can you imagine for like every time I see
that moment. Can you imagine just placing yourself in the
mind of being what, like lex is twelve years old.

Speaker 2 (32:25):
Yeah, making that snap decision, yes.

Speaker 6 (32:27):
And being a twelve year old and knowing that your
dad would kill your mom and that he won't kill you,
not out of love but out of the legacy thing.
And to be twelve and know that it's like, oh
my gosh, that's so sad and so crazy like to
think about.

Speaker 5 (32:43):
I think that's my answer to your question, Zach, Like
I hope that at twelve I would have been smart
enough to figure out that out, you know, but I
don't matter.

Speaker 3 (32:51):
Well, no, I mean it's true though, It's like it's
anyone who understands how like you know, families, right, they're
weird things, and so you can totally be like you
can understand that the twisted logic of well, you know,
make omaniac, business mogul, only son. Yeah, oh, and you're
an only child. It's like, well, you know, I mean,
I'm all you got, so I can push things a
no further than you don't really know.

Speaker 5 (33:10):
Your dad's got side pieces already anyway. You don't know
about your sister, but you know.

Speaker 2 (33:13):
Well, it's funny. It's funny. This also, I know we're
talking about Shakespearean and I totally agree with that, but
it honestly really reminds me of the Prince Charles episode
I can't I think it's the second season of The Crown.
The linel Lex dynamic is very similar to that, but
it's it's it just kind of echoes and also like
adds to this whole thing where their their relationship is

(33:35):
at the stakes of like Shakespeare or like Royalty, where
it's just like these like incredibly heightened crazy stakes. I
wish wait, you guys keep talking. I'm gonna find the
episode cool because it's it's like set at a boarding school,
and like Charles is like a more sensitive person, but
he's like forced to go to this very like austere,
tough school.

Speaker 3 (33:54):
Cool, you know, to that point. I don't know the
name of this episode, but this is the episode of
Daredevil season one about the Kingpins origin very much like that.
You know, this is like your your window into why
this guy is the way he is, and you relate
to one hundred percent.

Speaker 4 (34:10):
I think, like what episode eight.

Speaker 3 (34:14):
That shot in the arm, right, you're just trying to
get start to get tired to watch on these one day,
as I watched Dared Devil season one in one day.
I've never done that again, And yeah, you do.

Speaker 5 (34:22):
All tired till the child starts beating his father's head
in against so and.

Speaker 3 (34:26):
I'm like, okay, now I'm back.

Speaker 5 (34:28):
Yeah, I'm awake, I'm here.

Speaker 3 (34:30):
I mean, yes, the Kingpin is bold and all that,
but there are parallels with teen these episodes. I thought
the mother Father song connection between that family as equally
dysfunctional in its own way as the Luther's are.

Speaker 5 (34:42):
Yeah, that's really interesting.

Speaker 2 (34:44):
Okay, guys, I can't find the episode of The Crown,
but it's the Prince Charles cent Trick one. I think
it's in season two, right on.

Speaker 6 (34:52):
I need to see that show now.

Speaker 5 (34:53):
That sounds incredible.

Speaker 2 (34:54):
It's like one of the best shows of all time.

Speaker 6 (34:57):
And I also know I need to catch up with
Their Devil because everyone's and telling me that too.

Speaker 4 (35:01):
Bro, get on it.

Speaker 6 (35:02):
I guess while we're throwing out parallels, I'll just throw
out anyone here familiar with the Paul Thomas Anderson film,
there will be blood.

Speaker 3 (35:08):
But this should be Oh yeah, he should take your milkshake.

Speaker 6 (35:12):
It's yes, exactly the whole father something. It just reminds
me a little bit of that too, the mega madiac
and the thinking his son is sort of weak, but
you wonder is there real love there there? It seems
like there is, but then it turns into this awful
thing at the very end.

Speaker 4 (35:27):
Oh yeah, it's this stuff is like all over in
in literature and and like on stage, like I mean
like Fences, you know, like, oh my god, that's it's
the same same type of dynamic.

Speaker 3 (35:39):
You know, if I had to pick the best acting
woman in Smallville, it would probably be the last scene
between John Glover and Micro just yeah, absolutely complete emotional
gauntlet that Glover goes through. It's like if I if
I hit no, things would be so I mean, like
it goes from being dismissive and aggressive to like, oh
my god, like you're my son and I love you,
and it's like it's too late for Rex.

Speaker 4 (35:57):
Right, Oh yeah. And then and then yeah, Lennon Lex
with the straight gut punch at the end, with the
you know, you might have loved me and then saying
no and then walking away.

Speaker 5 (36:05):
Yeah, that last shot of Lionel from behind too, is
one of the prettiest images the show ever created. It's gorgeous.

Speaker 6 (36:13):
So I think that that that whole moment should have
won an Emmy, like the the acting, the directing, like everything.

Speaker 3 (36:21):
I agree, I think, you know, I think there are
a lot of fans of genre shows, right who are
so in the echo chamber of the one show they
loved and like just the best show everything. You know. Okay,
but I will I will go to bat for Smubble
and say no this episode. If I show me one
episode of Smuble's best, I'd be like I'd submitted for
your approval memorial, right, and so so really I do.

(36:43):
But there's Emmy's technical acting, you know. I just think
that across the board, this is just an excellent A
plus episode and I really would put it up against
all the best episodes of television period because it's all there, people.

Speaker 4 (36:57):
Oh it's it's that it ranks up there with like
with some of the rates. It would definitely hold its
own with like the best episode from lots of great
TV shows. This is definitely up there.

Speaker 5 (37:06):
Totally agreed. And Lona's in the two.

Speaker 3 (37:14):
Why is she going to give like what the bills
of the talent?

Speaker 2 (37:18):
Right?

Speaker 5 (37:18):
Yeah? Night and yeah closing, I don't know nobody owns
a watch in small.

Speaker 2 (37:27):
Well, okay, ready, here's Victoria's ready to explain it away.
It seems like that. I think it looked like it
was still chilly, so maybe it wasn't daylight set, so
maybe it's just early.

Speaker 5 (37:37):
Maybe it was like five thirty and yeah.

Speaker 8 (37:41):
Own the third season of Smallville on DVD. Clark's World
shutters by the World He Left Behind, Get action packed extras.
Why is the third season of Smallville no? On DBD?

Speaker 3 (37:58):
All right, I hope you all enjoyed our discussion on
Memoria and Memoria is such a great episode. It's the
nineteenth episode of the third season. But they might as
well have just ended the season right there. Obviously, obviously
they couldn't. There's a lot more plot lines to wrap
up for the season, and Covenant is a good finale.
I think at the time watching Live in season three,
I was a little disappointed in Covenant. It felt like

(38:19):
a just a standalone kind of episode, because you know,
season two had ended with a two parter, season three
had begun with a two parter. Then Memoria was so fantastic,
and then we get a couple episodes that you know
they're not the best episodes ever Talisman and Forsaken, but Covenant.
I mean that ending montage for spoiler's Covenant is not

(38:41):
on the top ten list everybody, In case you were
waiting for it to show up, it's not here. So
I'll talk about it for a minute. It is a
great finale, that ending montage with Mozart's work reem and
seeing the characters and all the situations they find themselves
into in the season, and to leave you not being
able to wait to see what happens next season. Incredible
stuff do it? Winyl shaving his head sounded like Palpatine there,

(39:05):
But why don't getting his head shaved and all this
going on? And you know, maybe it's the fact that
it's the fake Supergirl there that throws some things off.
I can't really put any finger on it, but looking
back on it, Covenant is a really satisfying, great finale
and it really ties together the entire season from things
that got set up at the beginning of the season.

(39:26):
So that being said, I think, and that's my point here,
I think in the shadow of Memoria, nothing can live
up right. It's almost unfair to ask Covenant to follow
up Memoria just a couple episodes later, so that might
have been a factor there, because usually for Smallville premieres
and finales, with some notable exceptions, and you all know
which ones I'm talking about, they delivered, They satisfy, they

(39:48):
are hype, and I'm gonna blame Memoria for why I
wasn't so hype for Covenant back in two thousand and four.
Not to say I didn't like it again, I just
think Memoria took some of the juice out of that
because when you reach that peak, right, it's hard to
recapture it, and that's where Covenant found itself, I think.
But Memoria again, just a brilliant episode, and it brings

(40:09):
so much, you know, pathos empathy to Lex Luthor and
a version where we already had so much for him,
and it really just defines this version of the character.
And it's just so well done and smallvill should be
really proud of itself for this episode. And we're moving
into that range now. I know, off the top, I said,
if I was gonna show be but one episode of Smallville,
it'd be this one. You know, when you're in the
top five of the top ten episodes, we're talking cream

(40:32):
of the crop here, So any of these next episodes
we're gonna list off here on the top ten episodes
would be a worthy Hey check out Smallville. This is
why I love it so much. This is why I
have devote it so much of my life to this show.
So we've been keeping track of the bangers. The needle
drops here on the top ten episodes, and we have
another one May Immortal by Evan Essence, and I don't

(40:54):
think you can find a band that is more early
two thousand, specifically two thousand and three two thousand and
four than Evan Essence. That album they had all the
songs they had on Daredevil the movie, which I like
more than most people, even the theatrical version. I think
the director's cut is far superior. But I like both versions.
I like Daredevil when I saw it in the theater.
What a rock and soundtrack. Sometimes the songs they picked

(41:16):
were a little over the top, but so was that movie, right.
So all that to say, they used the piano version
of My Immortal here at the end of this episode,
and it's very appropriate to use that version instead of
the hard rock version that would not have fit the
emotional beats they're hitting at the end of the episode
with that, but what a song, What a time to
be alive? Small Well just hitting on all cylinders with

(41:36):
this episode, especially again with the soundtrack with the needle drop.
So again, I hope you all enjoyed our conversation. Stay
tuned next week to find out which episode is the
number three episode of Smallville as voted by you, the listeners,
and until then, Always hold on To Smallville. Always hold

(42:17):
on To Smallville is part of the Always Hold on
To Network of podcasts and brought to you by listeners
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(42:38):
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Thank you so much to all these patrons, and you
too can become a patron at going to Patreon dot
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you there. Always hold On Too. Smallville's theme music is
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(43:46):
You can follow us on Twitter at always Malville with
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Speaker 2 (44:01):
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