Top 10 Episodes: #7 Transference

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm John Glover.

Speaker 2 (00:01):
I was Lionel Luther on a Smallville and I will
always always hold on to Smallville and I hope you
all do.

Speaker 1 (00:11):
Two. Welcome to Always hold on to Smallville. In this podcast,

(01:00):
we've talked about each in every episode of the Yolk
Superman Show that ram from two thousand and one to
twenty eleven on the WB and the CW. I'm your host,
Sach Moore, and we're back with another Top ten episodes.
That's right, the top ten episodes of Smallville as voted
by you, the listeners, and this time the number seven entry, Transference.

(01:23):
That's right. Traditionally Tom Wellings favorite episode of the show
since Talkville. I'm not sure if his opinion has changed.
I feel like you know, back in the day, this
is one of the episodes that stuck out to him
and he was most familiar with. Other than saying the pilot,
he would say Transference was his favorite episode. And you've
heard me talk about it before or after, and always

(01:46):
will to me. This is Tom Wellings' finest acting performance
on Smallville. He has some excellent scenes over the course
of the series, but for an individual episode, this has
got to be his highlight. The way he embodied John Glover,
who we knew so well for watching over three seasons
on the show, and he just captured that. And it's

(02:06):
just such a magnetic performance. And obviously there's so many
layers to it, right the writing, the directing, John Glover
walk through the scenes before welling perform the scenes on camera,
so he was just able to channel the great John Lover,
the greatest actor on Smallville. I'm always struggling with how

(02:28):
many season four episodes should I put on my own
personal top ten list? You know, this particular time, Transference
made the cut. Other times I don't know. I cycle through.
It's a Transference, is it Onyx?

Speaker 3 (02:40):
Is it Run?

Speaker 1 (02:40):
What is the best episode of season four? And in
good conscience, I can't put more than one season four
episode on my top ten list. Maybe that's silly. I
need to break through that at some point, if you
ask me at a different point in time, maybe these
season four episodes will start breaking through, because truly, Transference
and Run and Onyx are some of the best of
the best the series, and they're in season four, so

(03:04):
you know, in a good day, maybe all three of
those could be on the top ten list. But today
it's Transference, and this is an episode that is almost perfect.
You know, you'll hear us talk about it, obviously, but
a couple of things that got it cleaned up, especially
with Clark remembers what happened, but Lionel doesn't. Kind of
convenient right, Clark's soul healing, Lionel's sickness, Like, is that

(03:31):
what happened there? I don't know. But regardless, this isn't
an all time entertaining episode of the show. And yeah,
there's a reason why this is on the top ten list.
I voted for it on mine, and the listeners voted
for it on there. So it is refreshing to talk
about an episode that's not a premiere or finale. Those conversations,

(03:54):
you know, they were for a double episode in the
case of the finale, the first episode, which is a
little longer in the case of the pilot. Now we're
into just standard episodes of Smallville, so the length of
these may vary. But before we get into it here,
let's look back on what we gave Transference on the
letter grade scale. On the podcast Proper Transference had myself

(04:16):
and Matt Trux. I gave Transference an A and Matt
gave Transference of B plus. So obviously Matt and I
had already talked about this episode in depth on the
podcast Profer, but I am again joined by Lance Laster
from Always oldunt Arrow, Victoria Malay, and Matt Trux from

(04:39):
Loewis and Clark, the new podcast of Superman and Mini
Always hold On to podcasts on the network and on
the Patreon. So, without further ado, let's discuss the number
seven episode of Smallville Transference on.

Speaker 3 (04:54):
The WB Wednesday.

Speaker 4 (04:59):
Something hasn't you I remember you think of Scott Drenklin.
You're right, You're absolutely right.

Speaker 3 (05:04):
I'm not myself knows the truth.

Speaker 4 (05:10):
It's name, it's Ark. This is Lionel Luther, Precious small Villa.
On the WB Wednesday.

Speaker 1 (05:26):
Transference. We're back to doing like a normal episode because
the last two episodes we did the finale of the
show and the pilot of the show, and it's kind
of intimating to talk about in this format. We got
several people, We're talking all kinds of things. The conversation
goes to, oh, well, you know they cast so and so,
and oh, I can't believe they wrapped it up this way.
This is like Okay, this is just an episode of
the show that's really good and we're going to discuss it,

(05:49):
and let's ask was it on your top ten list? Lance?

Speaker 3 (05:52):
No, it's a great episode. It's a highlight.

Speaker 5 (05:54):
It didn't make my top ten, but it is definitely
a highlight of the season, Victoria.

Speaker 1 (05:58):
Was it on your top ten list?

Speaker 6 (06:00):
Probably not.

Speaker 2 (06:02):
I don't have my list on me, but I definitely
feel like it should have been up there. And I
was very intimidated by making this list process because I
was very worried that I would leave stuff like this
episode off.

Speaker 6 (06:13):
This is one of my favorite.

Speaker 1 (06:14):
Episodes, Matt Trux. Is it in your top ten list?

Speaker 2 (06:18):
It?

Speaker 4 (06:18):
I literally just got to it. It is not in
my top ten list, No.

Speaker 1 (06:22):
It's in mine, but it's good.

Speaker 4 (06:24):
It's a good episode, don't get me wrong.

Speaker 1 (06:26):
Yeah, to be fair to all y'all, I meant to
pull up the top ten list and see, but I
just I just didn't. So next time I will, and
we'll we'll have all the answers. This is one of
the back when I hated season four, I was like,
there's like three good episodes and season four is transference
running on X and screw the rest off them terrible,
still not as good as the first three, but a
solid season nonetheless, And this is really a highlight of well,

(06:51):
not okay, Matt, not a solid season. It's not perfect.
Come man, you know you can't be positive anymore. People
get on you. So it's as bad.

Speaker 4 (07:01):
It's a positivity that the season inspired. It's nice to.

Speaker 1 (07:04):
Say, did what do you guys think about transfer Lance?
I'll start with you.

Speaker 5 (07:08):
I remember it being a really good episode. It still
is a good episode. It still holds up. You know,
there's a couple of takeaways, but like for right now,
just right off the bat, there's a lot happening in
this episode. There's like a lot of stuff going on.
I was impressed by that, like they you know, managed
to take on a lot of things in an already
kind of packed season, especially at that point in the season,
the early third.

Speaker 1 (07:28):
I guess, all right, Tory, what about you?

Speaker 2 (07:32):
It's very interesting, I think because I remember I watched
small Velle at such an impressionable age, so I was like, oh,
this is great.

Speaker 6 (07:39):
This is the peak of acting and it's amazing.

Speaker 2 (07:42):
But I think the thing rewatching it is just how
well it has held up, like even now as someone
who's matured and knows a lot more about filmmaking and
just how it's led to a deeper appreciation of just.

Speaker 6 (07:55):
How well they nailed it.

Speaker 2 (07:57):
Also, when I was watching it again, I had big
appreciation for this is such a tropey trope the body switch,
and it's it's a trope I honestly hate, but they
did it so well and I have to give them
so many hats off for really adjusting it well to
the show. I think we've talked about this on the
podcast proper before, like small though, for all of its flaws,

(08:20):
when sometimes they're just really good or in my opinion,
at taking like a trope or taking like something a
cliche and tailoring it to the show so it doesn't
feel as stale. And I finally remembered what because I
was trying to think of this earlier, what I was
originally referencing. It's like when they did the teen sex
PSA in Unsafe. I personally thought, I know, Zach will

(08:45):
probably not agree with me, and maybe Lance won either
or Matt, but I thought they did a good job
at at least tailoring that kind of like trope and
that PSA really well into like the progression of the
show in that episode, and I think that's this was
another instance where they took something that's like very like
very overused in modern storytelling and did a really good

(09:05):
job at making it small Ville specific and just really
stick in the landing.

Speaker 7 (09:11):
Sex is too important not to talk about. Now's the
time to get the right answers and to make the
right decisions, whether you're a parent or a teen. Find
out more at www dot teen pregnancy dot org.

Speaker 1 (09:26):
Matt, what about you, man, what are your thoughts on transference?

Speaker 4 (09:30):
The trope of it is so well done? What you
just said, Victoria, Yeah, so I was thinking about a
lot of different like bodies switch episodes, you know, And
my personal favorite is a Buffy season four episode weirdly enough,
but this one is a close second because there's plot
in this episode. Obviously, we have to learn about stones
and blah blah blah and how's it going to transference

(09:50):
and all that, But the biggest, like the most memorable
parts of it and where they put the meat of
the episode are these character moments. Are seeing the reverses
of the relationships with everybody in both of these guys' lives.
Mostly as with tom Welling with Clark or Lionel Clark
whatever we're going to call him tonight, and a little

(10:11):
bit with Lionel. But just seeing those interactions and those
character beating after character beating after character beat, he interacts
with the whole main cast in a very different way,
and that makes it compelling.

Speaker 2 (10:20):
I also think it was so interesting because I feel
like maybe the first impulse was to have Clark and
Lex and I'm really happy they I don't know, this
is me just writing real person Smallville fanfic for the writers,
but like I think it was, having Clark and Lionel
was also just so compelling and interesting, and I'm really

(10:40):
glad they chose those characters.

Speaker 1 (10:43):
That's a great point. I feel like if they hadn't
done this episode in season four, when they got to
like season seven, they would have done a hey what
if Clark and Lex which bodies episode? And of course
he would have had an amnesia and they would have
yeah who, and then a lot of situation there with
those guys. So this was the really this was a
really good time for the buddy swap, and y'all have

(11:05):
mentioned all the characters he interacts with. Honestly, my favorite one.
I don't know. They're all so good. They're all so good.
A true laugh out loud moment. No, no, no, it's it's
not the Lana one, Matt.

Speaker 3 (11:16):
No.

Speaker 1 (11:17):
That was when he's talking to Jason Tigue and he's like,
you're looking at me like you have no idea who
I am. He's like, yeah, sure I do. You're a coach.
And because he's wearing a coach or a jacket, that
is the This is the funniest moment in the episode.

Speaker 3 (11:31):
I think, well, yeah, well that one.

Speaker 5 (11:32):
And then the second time he talks to Jason when
he catches he and Lana, and with his last words
is just like he's like, all right, then coach something
like to that effect, and like he said, and just
the way he says coach again, it's just like Liono
probably at this point in the show probably doesn't even
know this dude's name, which I know.

Speaker 3 (11:48):
That's what I that's what I read into it.

Speaker 5 (11:50):
I was like, that's hilarious, Like he knows he's his
coach and he's just gonna say it a certain way,
like a Lionel way, and it's hilarious.

Speaker 1 (11:55):
Yep, they didn't meet at those Veritas meanings like ten
years ago and hanging out at Doctor Swans how so
I'm sure he's grown.

Speaker 6 (12:01):
Up so much, really recognize him.

Speaker 4 (12:02):
I thought you were going to say the mom hug,
the Martha hug, which is just.

Speaker 6 (12:09):
They're all so so edible, so fun.

Speaker 3 (12:12):
Yeah, and the best.

Speaker 5 (12:13):
Way though, you know, the Lionel having a crush on
Martha thing is one of my favorite things in this show,
Like he knows, and it's like it just cracks me
up because it's been there since the beginning, and like,
I love how it's just this nice little through line
throughout the entire show that Lionel has a thing for Martha,
and it just like it manifested in this episode the
the craepiest way possible, for sure, I think.

Speaker 2 (12:34):
I also love my favorite moment is the this one
moment with because we were all thinking it and then
it was like hallolu, soone finally said it. And then
also I rewatching. I thought the Chloe scene was so interesting,
like the Chloe one. I know, like we all like
the theme of the show is like Loe has to
be psychologically tortured, but that was such an interesting thing

(12:56):
between like welling at the top of his game, acting
wise and like al and bringing her.

Speaker 6 (13:01):
Best per usu.

Speaker 2 (13:03):
There was like the tension there was so interesting, and
I was like trying to remember what it would have
been like watching it without knowing what was happening, and
like the scene starts and you don't really know how
it's gonna end.

Speaker 1 (13:18):
Yeah, yeah, because you don't really know what this is.
Lionel Luther here in Clark's body, don't know what his
intentions are gonna be with Chloe because she's the oneho
but him in jail. But he knows that Chloe's in
love with Clark, so he's gonna use that to like
just twist that knife.

Speaker 2 (13:29):
I also had like, sorry, a creeper moment when I
was It really like hit me how creepy it was
because I just like, you know, I'm just like, oh,
it's like Clark's really letting himself go. But no, like
realizing that was me when I was twelve, I'm like, yes,
look at yourself in the mirror, shirtless more.

Speaker 6 (13:47):
But when he says.

Speaker 2 (13:49):
That moment with the cheerliers where he's like ladies, and
I'm like, you're such a creepy old thing.

Speaker 1 (13:55):
But he's a villain, So it's okay, we can laugh
at it, right, guess.

Speaker 4 (13:58):
Totally yeah, but you know what he's doing in the
minute he gets to Mexico or wherever he's trying to
flee to there, you know, Freddy Mercury.

Speaker 1 (14:08):
Very good, very good. This is Tom Willing's finest performance.
Does anyone think there's a better episode of his acting
in this show?

Speaker 3 (14:17):
I don't think this is.

Speaker 4 (14:18):
This is like what what's another like Meaedy Clark, like
important Clark scene for him, like in because I feel
like most of that is him reacting to like I'm
from Crypto.

Speaker 5 (14:30):
He has great scenes throughout, but I think what Zach
is talking about is just like minute one to the end,
like of the.

Speaker 3 (14:35):
Like the episode. I think this is.

Speaker 5 (14:39):
He has great episodes, like you know, like can't Luthor
like you know, like you can name different things, but
as far as like the whole episode, I think this
is probably it.

Speaker 1 (14:46):
Those two you just mentioned. He's playing ultra man, so
I'm like, yeah, he again, Tom Welling, he missed his calling.
He should have been a villain in something.

Speaker 2 (14:53):
But honestly, though, I think the villain is only healing.
The villain is so much fun for us to watch
and we think he missed his calling. He's done such
a good job or we've seen so much of him
playing the good guy, like I don't I don't know
if the impact would have been the same if we
were introduced to him as a villain, but maybe not.
The guy looks like a Donnis and he a swag
for days, so I don't know. The only one I

(15:14):
was thinking of that was kind of Meaty the season
three episode one, I think, because he's like but I
think Transforence trumps it because he's like channeling another person
rather than just playing another facet of the character. And
I was specifically watching it this time. He just had
he just I think what really sold it was like

(15:34):
something technical, which was and I think you guys mentioned
this in your your episode of the podcast proper as
we're referring.

Speaker 1 (15:41):
To it the podcast prop that's what we're always gonna call
it now, the podcast profit is they had I think.

Speaker 2 (15:45):
They had Glover play all the scenes and then Welling
would go in. He knew you What really sold it
as I was watching it and analyzing, was he had
the Welling could do the cadence, And I think that's
what makes it so innate and then you're like, oh
my god, wait, no, that's really line aloother.

Speaker 4 (16:02):
John Glover brought this up, and he pointed out something
I hadn't noticed before, but I guess Lionel has like
a weird thing where like he will like slide his
tongue or his lips a little yeah, just kind of
like wet his lips a little bit. And he said
he used to do that a lot on the show,
and he noticed that Tom was just kind of picking
that up, which is a whole other level of it too.

(16:23):
But like, I agree with you, Victoria, like he's not
doing an impression or like an impersonation, but he's just
wearing the skin of it like so manatively. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (16:32):
Absolutely, yeah, And that's where that the Freddy Mercury comment
comes from. Is yes, the inside of you with John Glover,
microm So, hiler Grim and everyone go listen to that.
But yeah, to that point, Glover mentions in that interview
it was hard for him to play the young Clark
and that he's on record in the companion. He said
that and then talking to Rosebom because Rose Mom was

(16:53):
asking about that when they switched parts, and I think
we can all agree with John Glover and the fact
that the weakest part of this soul switch through is
as good as Tom Willing is. John Glover really doesn't
capture an eighteen year old Clark in does he?

Speaker 3 (17:06):
No, he captured six year old Clark Kent, but not necessarily.

Speaker 6 (17:10):
Told me I was a very boy.

Speaker 3 (17:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (17:13):
They run faster and really really fast.

Speaker 1 (17:15):
I get that it is hard to just play innate good.
He was just kind of boring. Although, although I will say,
and I said this in the podcast proper, by the
end of the episode, you're so used to like the
Clark can you see being evil and the Lion of
LUTHERI you're seeming in like this nice little older guy.
It's kind of sad when they when they switch places again,
you're like, oh, I kind of like adorable lionel as

(17:36):
a really special boy.

Speaker 2 (17:39):
Yeah, you're kind of sad when they switch back because
you kind of fall in love with like, evil, manipulative Clark.

Speaker 6 (17:45):
At least I did.

Speaker 2 (17:48):
That would have been fun to see a little bit
more of that, But I think it's also.

Speaker 6 (17:51):
Smart because you always want to leave the audience wanting more.

Speaker 1 (17:54):
Yeah, exactly, like they played this trope perfectly. This time around.
And the thing about lineup Iss and Clark is, we know,
we've seen John Glover as Lena Luth on the show
for three years and we've seen we've seen how he acts,
and to see Tom Willing as Clark channeling that, that's
makes all the difference. If it's some villain of the week,
who oh, no, some villain Joberber Clark's bounty, it's a
generic bad guy, it's not. It doesn't have the weight

(18:15):
and you don't appreciate the nuance as much. And that
is what makes it because you have an established character
possessing an established character, as opposed to hey, here's Zod
and he'sn't possessing wlax. I'm like, okay, I don't know
what who Zod is or what he acts like, so
I can't tell you if he's doing a good job
or a bad job.

Speaker 4 (18:31):
No, I think you've hit the nail on the head
with that, because like I was thinking of different body
swap episodes this week, and like so many of them
are just villain in the week comes in with their
body switching machine or whatever and takes the hero and
that's like, you know, the hero has to convince the
friends that he's a stranger or whatever. But yeah, I
agree with you. It's totally that thing that it's both
characters that we've known for that long and it makes

(18:53):
it that much more interesting.

Speaker 3 (18:55):
True.

Speaker 5 (18:56):
The one that made me think of after I watched
it was in US This League Unlimited, the Great Brain Robbery,
when Yeah, the Flash and Lex Luthor switched places, and
it's just really funny because like they both kind of
don't know what to do in like the other person's body,
and so they just kind of act like themselves when
everybody just thinks they're weird, and it's a different playing

(19:17):
field than what we have here where it's just like
the characters are like, you know, very much more nuanced
and they know what they're doing. They have goals and
they're out to do something. Lionels out to mess up
Clark's life, get his money back and like go do
whatever else he's gonna do, and then Clark is trying
to get back to where he is.

Speaker 3 (19:32):
That other episode is just like, this is hilarious that
Lex Luthor's in the Flash and doesn't know who the
Flash is. It's hilarious.

Speaker 5 (19:38):
Yeah, this is hilarious that the Flashes in Lex Lutheran
has no idea what he's doing.

Speaker 3 (19:41):
It's pretty funny.

Speaker 4 (19:42):
Yeah, and weirdly maybe it goes to the performances or
the stronger performance, but also maybe the story. But like
in the Justice League one, we're following the hero in
the villain's body a lot more than we're following Lex
in the flash, right.

Speaker 2 (19:54):
I think, because what really helps the tension or something
that really landed for me when I was rewatching it
this time is Clark Lionel or I don't know, I'm
just gonna call him like sexy. Tom Willing has this
line of dialogue where he goes, you know, with my
mind and your body and your powers, like I'm unstoppable,
and you're like, yeah.

Speaker 6 (20:17):
We gotta get that stone captivated.

Speaker 2 (20:22):
This is not going to end well, oh man, like yes,
like the guy because like again, like Clark is very handsome,
but he's like kind of awkward and he doesn't like
channel that. But like Lionel, who is like so unencumbered
and so unrestrained and so amoral.

Speaker 1 (20:40):
Dann like and take it. Speaking of uh, you know
that the body swaps that were saying, like it worked
really well that Lionel was in jail and also dying,
So it was like a ticking clock, right, and he
was like in a place separated from all the other characters.
Like he had to, like, you know, say something absurd

(21:00):
about Clark to get Martha to even come see him,
and she almost immediately leaves and she thinks he's lying,
so like, it's not like if we if we've done
that that hypothetical Clark and Lex which you mentioned Victoria,
like in season seven, it's like, well, how do you
when you have the hero and the other villains, But
he can quickly go to his friends and explain all
this stuff and or it becomes a stupid like they
don't believe him for some reason. So it worked really

(21:21):
well that you have lionels separated from everybody in prison.

Speaker 2 (21:25):
So oh okay, wait, that actually reminded me of a
question that I have.

Speaker 6 (21:29):
I would like to ask a question. So you know
the scene when.

Speaker 2 (21:33):
They get Clark Lionel sexy Tom willing to come back
to the.

Speaker 6 (21:39):
Prison, yes, and he's sitting with not Jim Rash.

Speaker 1 (21:42):
And thank you, thank you, yep.

Speaker 2 (21:47):
And I'm also Jim Rash went to my high school
in my college, so I'm totally team Jim Rash, sorry,
other guy. The way that scene goes that I was
like listening and watching extra closely this time. Is that
him Edgar not Jim Rash putting on an act.

Speaker 6 (22:02):
To lure Clark back.

Speaker 2 (22:04):
Was that a legitimate thing where he was like, I legit,
don't know, No, that's totally a plan because he has
a moment that he was like, wait, wait, how's how
stuff coming along with your lawyers? That made that kind
of like threw me for a second.

Speaker 1 (22:17):
I think it was a Lionel and Clark's by the way,
Clark and Lionel's body. And I always thought he was
the not.

Speaker 6 (22:24):
Sexy, un sexy John Glove.

Speaker 4 (22:26):
I got confused.

Speaker 1 (22:27):
I always thought he was the verising guy. That's what
I can you hear me now, guy, that's the why.
That's why I equated Edgar too. But they had concocted
a plan where they would lun re Lionel back, and
and Clark had said that he would help him out,
I guess at some point. But see that gets all
lost because at the end of the episode, he like
goes and tells les, oh, we gotta help up a friend,
but then uh, losing breaks him out.

Speaker 6 (22:47):
Of Wile Ago.

Speaker 2 (22:51):
But then my question because I also feel like Clark
was unseexy, John Glover wasn't like looking for him, and
the only way they found each other was through a
legitimate prison riot.

Speaker 1 (23:02):
But that was awesome. That was such a great sea.
Why are you question it?

Speaker 6 (23:06):
I'm not questioning it.

Speaker 2 (23:07):
I'm just like I'm reflecting and like trying to make
sure I'm fully understanding and appreciating everything.

Speaker 3 (23:12):
Yeah, it was, yeah, yeah it was.

Speaker 4 (23:14):
It was a random pery that I don't know what
if there wasn't a prison riot, what the plan was
going to be?

Speaker 6 (23:19):
See that That's where I tripped up.

Speaker 4 (23:21):
Right, But I think their main thought was just like
tell him there's something wrong with the research, like make
him panic, get him back here, and then we'll figure it.

Speaker 1 (23:29):
Well, he told him that he had to kill Lionel
his body. Yeah, so it was like, oh, well, Clark's
gonna Clark's body. We'll do it this way. Clark's body
has to find Lionel's body and kill it. But that
I guess Clark figured that Lionel would use that I'm
gonna choke you move, which is when a Clark's singers removed.
So he could do the whole Oh come my underarm.
I got a crystals.

Speaker 3 (23:51):
When I saw that this time.

Speaker 5 (23:52):
When I was watching this, I was like, Game of
Thrones took this from Smallville, because that's totally the move.
Arias Stark used on The Night King spoilers for anybody
who has not seen.

Speaker 4 (24:01):
It, anyone who still cares.

Speaker 5 (24:05):
Yeah exactly, I know, all right, but that's that's the first
thing that I thought of. But yeah, you're right, like
the prison riot thing, it was. This was not like
a you know, Aero season seven, you know, manufactured prison ride.
It was just it just kind of happened this time.

Speaker 4 (24:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (24:16):
It was a spontaneous prison right, which is personally how
I prefer my prison rise.

Speaker 4 (24:20):
Yeah, exactly, keep it loose.

Speaker 1 (24:22):
To the episode's credit, they had set up that Lionel
was getting in some big fight with some guy later
on the episode, and so that'll be played into and
that's and that's why this episode point on my top
ten list, and it's on Hey you the listeners were
I think this is the first one that we've had
that's on my top ten list. I think it is
so finally, thank you listeners for I agree finally, But

(24:43):
all the little things like they all they all make sense,
Like like in season seven or something, I'd be like, yeah, whatever,
you know reasons you know this one, Like I feel
like that there's the there's there's payoffs, but there's setups
to those payoffs that make it all makes sense, right.
The weakest part to this to me is is the
resolution where it's like Clark doesn't have amnesia, but Lionel does.
I think that's a real cop out. I guess they

(25:05):
didn't want Lionel to have the knowledge of Clark's secret
at this point, but then when you get down to
the end of season four, you kind of think he
knows what's going on. He's a good guy now, so
maybe he protected him. But ultimately they wanted to do
that so they can have that scene between Clark and
Lex saying, oh, we got to help my friend because
you got to pay off the fact that Clark said
he was gonna help him. But then it goes nowhere
because Margot kedderreak him out of jail, So you could

(25:27):
have just had him both have amnesia.

Speaker 5 (25:28):
Possibly, Yeah, but I do understand what you're saying though
about the ending that is Yeah, yeah, I.

Speaker 4 (25:34):
Agree, I do like that they I mean they you know,
it's a drama, it's a soap opera. They had to
make Clark have to kind of like apologize for stuff
he didn't do, you know like that. That's a big
part of these like under the Influence episodes, right.

Speaker 2 (25:48):
And something I loved about this episode is that, like,
because this episode is a literal epitome if you weren't
yourself on the Telly Place.

Speaker 3 (25:57):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (25:58):
My favorite is how like we finally and calls him
out and she's like, ye, you have you have pulled
this bullsh Excuse me, You've pulled this enough times, Like
I am so over this. I'm not falling for this
act again, Like no, And then I love it how
she doesn't even come around. She's like, oh good, Lona,
you yell at him now.

Speaker 1 (26:19):
I think after Red, nobody should have talked to Clark.
After Rush, nobody should have talked to Clark, and especially
after this one. This is ridiculous.

Speaker 6 (26:29):
So but I guess, you know, there are a small town.
There's not a lot of people, so you're.

Speaker 4 (26:33):
Going to run into them eventually, so.

Speaker 6 (26:35):
You got to mend those relationships.

Speaker 2 (26:37):
But one thing I liked about I noticed because we
were talking in the group chat that you that we
were joking that, you know, since Zach and Matt had
already discussed this at length, that they were just gonna
be talking about like lighting and the sets. But one
thing I noticed in the costuming is that scene between
Lex and Sexy Tom Weeling is that they're matchers. They're

(26:59):
wearing the same like they're dressed literally the interesting like
the black button up and like the slacks, which I
thought was very interesting because I remember from my days
getting the small little DVDs and watching all the commentaries.
Was one of the things they encountered in Red with
the costuming of like Red K Clark is that they
put him in suits and stuff and they were like,

(27:21):
you know, he really looks like a twenty something year old,
Like he looks like an adult man. And then like
they course corrected in Exile where he's kind of like
in like I used to remember, like the iconic Volcom
T shirt and they like, so I thought this was like,
but this is where like making him look more mature
and like having him match.

Speaker 6 (27:39):
Blex's wardrobe like really narratively worked totally.

Speaker 4 (27:42):
And isn't he when he's when he's getting dressed in
the barn or in the yeah, the bar. Doesn't he
have a purple button down too, which is very very loose.

Speaker 1 (27:52):
It's kind of it's a Lilac Nobody's kakies And that's
a big departure with the khakis. Yeah, that was an
interesting choice for him. But yeah, I just yeah, and
that scene when he shows up in the prison and
kind of like shows himselves off. He's like, what do
you think, like if that's Arrari, that's exactly what he
would do, just to just to show it off. What

(28:13):
did you think of Margot Kidder popping them at the end,
taking that crystal?

Speaker 2 (28:17):
It's heartbreaking because I want more. I just I was
so excited when she came back because like the first
episode of Smallville I ever truly watched, like Live to
Air properly on the seat on the the CW. Still
the WB was Crusade, so like I like got to
meet Lois and like meet older Lois and it was like,
this is weird, like Lois connection to like how I

(28:39):
was introduced to Smallville. So I remember being so excited
when she came back. It was like I know her,
I know her, just my friend. Yeah, And then like
knowing that didn't go anywhere, like knowing now that no
More was to be his heartbreaking because it would have
been so cool. I have my I can I get

(29:00):
like really real and vulnerable right now. I have my
own like head cannon where Bridgett and doctor Swann married,
and I hate that Dean Kine was a freak of
the week. He is their son and he runs Virgil
Swan's operation. So look for that fan pic coming to
archive of your own never.

Speaker 1 (29:21):
I would happily release that as a Patreon exclusive for.

Speaker 2 (29:25):
Don't make offers You're not willing to make good on
more because.

Speaker 1 (29:32):
It's been fortunate about season four because they had major problems,
right they had Christopher Reeve was supposed to play the
big part and he died, and then Margot Kidder was
gonna replace him, and then she felt uncomfortable about doing it,
and I totally get it. Yeah, that was her friend
for decades and it felt awkward. I'm not gonna I
mean it would she would have come back, but I
understand why she wouldn't. And then good Jane Seymore in
here and that's why they ended up doing you think,

(29:54):
oh good more to come from bridget cross because that's
a tease. Now she has a crystal and then they
have to wait all the way down to uh to
Spirit actually when it's like, here's a leg in a
pile of dirt and that was her after driver's license
Jason Gilder and has the stone nowt Yahoo.

Speaker 3 (30:14):
I loved when Sexy Tom.

Speaker 5 (30:16):
Is yeah, I just got to go with it.

Speaker 3 (30:20):
We just got to go with it.

Speaker 5 (30:21):
When he talks to the Kents the first time, like
it's like, I love how nonchalant the Kents are about
Clark's abilities and it's just so funny, like how at
this point in the show, like it doesn't phase them
to ask Clark to lift up the tractor or put
out a fire with his hands, Like they're just like
it's just it's just everyday stuff. And to like Sexy Clark,
he's seeing this for the first time, he's like eyes

(30:42):
wide open, like in wonderment at these things that Superman
can do, things that we obviously can't, and so to
us it's like the most amazing thing. But the Kents
like they've been there, done that before, and it's just
so funny how they treated him. There's like Clark, he's
like I'm not five to four, lifted up higher so
I can get under there, and he's like, it's hilarious. Yeah,
I know, exactly, putting up fire exactly. Yeah, so good.

Speaker 6 (31:05):
It is so good.

Speaker 1 (31:06):
I'm glad that they didn't try this again. We would
have deluded this one. But this one stands apart because
it's so unique of all the like if they didn't
even if they did something like, I mean, they had
an episode Wherelana got Clark's powers, but they didn't like
switch bodies or you know, I mean, the closest thing
they ever did to this was in Hex. Chloe kind

(31:28):
of wishes she was Lois. There's again some kind of
meta commentary and Eric and heran she goes up to
she goes up to the verge. She says, oh my god,
I'm Lois. She says it. She says it just like
Alice and Mack would have, so you have you know
what I think about it. That wasn't a true swap,
but you just because I don't know, I don't know
what Lois herself was supposed to doing that episode, but
she's off one assignment, perhaps in Africa, talking to Hawkman.

(31:49):
I don't know, but they have but there's no because
there should be seen was like two Lois is there,
you know, but there's not because they didn't switch. They
just as the time of turned in.

Speaker 6 (32:00):
It was a transformation.

Speaker 1 (32:03):
There. He goes, very good, Victoria, very good. They could
have easily done some like Chloe and Laana switch bodies,
and Chloe feels those what it feels like to have
Clark like or and Wana finally understands a tough life
club like they could have gone. They could have gone
down this road and they didn't. And I'm very I'm
very happy. But yeah, I mean, this is uh, this
is a great episode of some great stuff in here,
especially at the end when when Clark and Lex apologize.

(32:25):
I think that's what I mentioned, Like Lance and I
have all these in jokes or something. It's so funny
think that Clark and Lance, Clark and Lance Lewis life
is mixing for me. I'm sorry, crossing the streams the
Clark and Lex. You guys think this. My best friend's
name is Lance. Last year, Clark's best friend name is
Lex Luthor.

Speaker 3 (32:40):
All right, two L's man.

Speaker 4 (32:43):
But when when.

Speaker 1 (32:43):
Clark comes to see Lex at the end, he Lex
pulls a gun on me, and he'sa like, what does your
dad tell me?

Speaker 2 (32:48):
What?

Speaker 1 (32:48):
I hate you with the car? What do we always
joke out after the question, just demanding to know this
in joke. It's just so funny.

Speaker 3 (32:57):
It's almost as good as Whitney's. You know what is
my favor radio station.

Speaker 1 (33:02):
It's the emotional outbursts on the show, or or just
they come out of nowhere, or always funny.

Speaker 4 (33:06):
I'm sorry, Probably nobody else cares about this is Zach.
Does that four barreled gun ever show up again?

Speaker 1 (33:12):
You know, I'm gonna keep an eye for because it's
really cool, Like I don't know a gun, which I'm
from Texas and I don't own a gun, so I know, shocking.
You're not a favorite Texas But okay, if I ever did,
I would like that.

Speaker 4 (33:27):
Yeah, please, I don't recall X.

Speaker 1 (33:29):
He always has some like generic like giant silver gun. Right,
I don't even know what they're called. Right, So I'm
gonna keep an eye on for that four bell gun.
But but it's but but why would you have a
four barrel gun? This is fire all four at the
same time, at least.

Speaker 4 (33:44):
The only time I've ever seen it before, I think
is the second tomb Raider movie, which is not worth it.
But like, I don't think he had like underwater spear
guns with him, so I'm not sure.

Speaker 1 (33:53):
W B released the tomb Raider movies. No, I think
it was Paramount. No, No, I think it was Paramount.

Speaker 4 (33:58):
I think Paramount.

Speaker 1 (34:00):
I was gonna say, if it's some random props sitting around,
he just decided to use a terminator three footage two
Rader props, you know, So you're right, Victoria, I think
because we're so used to him playing it one way,
to see him playing a different way, He's why I
like it so much. And well, and you know, he's
a better actor than people give him credit for, or
at least a better imitator than people give him credit for.

Speaker 6 (34:19):
I agree that I loved Matt's point. It wasn't an impression.

Speaker 2 (34:23):
He was legitimately, like I love how you said it,
wearing the skin he was he was.

Speaker 5 (34:27):
He has far more talent than he gets than he
gets credit for. I think he gets a bad rap
with with some of his actings sometimes, and this kind
of proves his shops.

Speaker 4 (34:36):
Is he good on Lucifer? This is the only thing
I've ever seen him.

Speaker 1 (34:42):
I was a little disappointed.

Speaker 2 (34:44):
I think Lucifer doesn't give him an opportunity to shine.

Speaker 6 (34:48):
That's I've only watched a couple episodes.

Speaker 4 (34:50):
How about silver lining right there?

Speaker 1 (34:52):
Thank you well, Victoria. Was it from the first half
of that season on.

Speaker 6 (34:57):
The second That's all I got true.

Speaker 1 (35:00):
I actually I skipped around after the first half, to
be honest. But he's playing a boring character the first
half loosier because there's a twist about his identity and religious.

Speaker 4 (35:12):
Is he a monster or something.

Speaker 1 (35:13):
I'm gonna spoil it for you, everyone, go ahead. He's
Kane who Caine killed Abel in the Bible?

Speaker 6 (35:19):
Okay, I think he just kind my interest in Lucifer.

Speaker 1 (35:23):
So he's immortal. Like there's a great scene. There's a
great scene in the in the mid season finale of
that season of season three Lucifer where Lucifer kills him
and he's expecting him. He he thinks he's Kane and
he kills him. He stabs in the heart and he
just lays there for a while. They stay on it
just long enough you think, oh, maybe he's wrong, maybe
he just killed Tom Wellings, maybe maybe he's just a cop.
But then he like does the whole like wake up,

(35:45):
you know, with the big breath les the knife out
of his chest, and then there's there's a little subplot
well obviously throughout the rest of the season, but it's
a love triangle between Lucifer his partner detective love interest,
and Tom Welling's character the rest of the season, which
is kind of is so But anyway, I one hundred
percent agree with the Victoria I watched. I was like,
this is Tom Willing's return to television. Is disappointing because

(36:07):
he's playing this Mooring character. But that was kind of
the point.

Speaker 2 (36:11):
Can I just say that I went and saw The
Fog in theaters and it was such a big deal
for me because I was like a teeny bopper and
I was afraid of horror movies.

Speaker 6 (36:17):
But I watched it for Tom and I. It was on.

Speaker 2 (36:21):
Netflix like a year ago, and I was like, oh
my god, let's do a TBT.

Speaker 6 (36:25):
Let's turn on the Fog.

Speaker 2 (36:27):
I couldn't get it is horrendous. Like I was like, okay,
let's just fast forward to the shower scene and then
like turn it off.

Speaker 1 (36:38):
See as much as Victoria loves Tom Willing, it has been
well established here. She can't get through Lucifer. She can't
get through the Fox. She's artistic standards. I respect Everytory,
thank you so much. But yes, we saw in the
theater as well, and as as as we the story.
We told him many times. We have some group of
friends and another one of our friends got a phone
call and they asked what we were doing. And our
friends says, oh, I'm seeing the fog. And the other

(37:00):
person said, well, how was it? And our friend said,
the fog is bullsh don't go see the fog, And
he was one hundred percent right. That was so disappointing,
and a remake of a pretty creepy effect of Tom
Tom Carpenter listening John Carpenter movie from that.

Speaker 4 (37:13):
I didn't know that.

Speaker 1 (37:14):
Yeah, John Carpenter's the fog.

Speaker 3 (37:17):
When the fog rolls.

Speaker 4 (37:18):
In, what's from it?

Speaker 6 (37:21):
Keeps seeing horrible things happening.

Speaker 3 (37:23):
Something from the.

Speaker 5 (37:23):
Past will return, somebody I in the tone of Antonio Bay.

Speaker 3 (37:30):
Get off the island.

Speaker 6 (37:31):
Why just go?

Speaker 3 (37:33):
We'll pay for it, sin.

Speaker 4 (37:35):
Sir, Where did that come from? Anybody there?

Speaker 3 (37:42):
The fog? Grady, PG.

Speaker 4 (37:43):
Thirteen, Smallville, the complete fourth season. No matter how bad
you want to, just can't save everyone.

Speaker 2 (37:51):
But it doesn't stop you from chime while you know.

Speaker 4 (37:52):
On DVD September thirteen. Yeah, Yes, skip to the good stuff.

Speaker 5 (37:56):
Pops includes all new behind the scenes feature atts with
cast and Crewe.

Speaker 4 (38:00):
My Intellect, your powers. Yeah, we can rule this world.
You don't just stand Darkmond on air scenes, secret commentaries,
and more, much much more.

Speaker 6 (38:12):
Looks like someone has the magic touch.

Speaker 4 (38:14):
Have a great time.

Speaker 5 (38:17):
And catch new episodes of Smallville this fall on its
new night, the WB Thursday.

Speaker 1 (38:26):
All Right, I hope I'll all enjoyed our discussion on Transference.
This might have been outside of the pilot. This might
have been the most positive and in line with each other.
We all were about Transference. Even though it wasn't on
everyone's top ten list, it was on mind. We all
recognized it was a great episode and it deserved to
be here in the top ten. Now. I have been

(38:48):
critical over the years, both here and on the podcast Proper,
about John Glover's performance as Clark, and you know what
I have I have warmed even to that. So one
of the few flaws of this episode I used to identify,
I don't think it's a flaw anymore. I think if
you watch John Glover's scenes and try to transpose Tom

(39:09):
Welling into them. I can see it now, I can't
especially at the end of the prison riot where he says,
what happened to concealing your powers? I could totally see
Tom delivering the lion that way in that situation. Also
when he's talking to Edgar and the jail cell and
he's just taking it all in, as Clark often did
when people were monologuing to him about things. I can

(39:31):
see it now. I do think the still the You're
especial little boy, the breakdown thing might be a little
too childish, But look at other scenes where Clarke hasays
a lot of emotional distress, Like I think about the
scene and hereafter when Jonathan collapses in the bar and
he's like mom, mom right or in uh in commencement

(39:52):
when he's talking to Joel and Joel's like you most
fucking the three crystals, He's like, I don't know where
they are. I don't know where to start to look
for them. And I think that energy there it does work.
So I am going to walk back my criticism of
John Glover again the best actor on the show, and
to speak to Victoria's proposed fan fiction about the Swan Foundation.

(40:14):
In my head, Kenned, Patricia Swan is definitely the daughter
of Virgil Swan and Bridget Crosby. Of course, they all
end up deceased by the end of Smavel's run, so tragic,
but I do wish they had done more with legacy
casting and that family legacy over the course of the show,
as she had suggested her fan fiction. And if I'm

(40:37):
not mistaken, the Smallville season eleven comics, which you know
y'all have heard my hot takes on those comics and
their canonicity. But I believe Star Labs in those comics
the S stands for Swan Swan Technology and Research Labs,
I believe. So if not, that's something I saw on
a message board once and thought that was the coolest idea.

(40:58):
So I'll have to go pull those out and see
if that's the case. So the legacy of the Swan
family lives on, even if the Swan family themselves do not.
I don't think there's anything that contradicts Patricia Swan being
the daughter of Virgil and Bridget. Nothing is confirmed on screen,
but obviously she's doctor Swan's daughter and a lifetime ago,
him and Bridget Crosby had a love affairs. So we're

(41:20):
just gonna say Patricia Swan is their daughter. And as
I've been doing throughout the top ten episodes keeping track
of bangers, needle drops musical hits, we have been three
for three or four for four guests. We are because
of Jimmy Eat World's pain. What a needle drop during
the prison riot. Just such a great scene with so

(41:41):
many extras and so much action going on, and it's
really elevated even more by the musical choice and takes
my pain away like it's such a great song. It
fits so well. Just the energy matches everything that's going on,
the chaotic scene and Clark and Lionel finding each other
in the crowd, you know, just Lionel less Clark, that
shot of him walking by the window of the slow mode.

(42:05):
It's just you so effectively. Jimmy Eat World another group
that had multiple songs on Smallville, so truly part of
the soundtrack of Smallville and the soundtrack of mine in
so many of our lives over the years. Right, so
good to have that street keep going here. Four episodes
into the top ten. All right again, I hope you
all enjoyed our conversation. Stay tuned next week to find

(42:27):
out which episode is the number six episode of Smallville,
as voted by you the listeners, and until then, Always
hold on to Smallville, Always Well On to Smallville as

(43:00):
part of the Always Hold On To network of podcasts
and brought to you by listeners like you, Chris Fuchs, Cavante, Chillis,
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(43:22):
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(44:02):
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Hope to see you there. Always hold on to Smallville's
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(44:23):
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