August 7, 2025 • 33 mins
Dan Yoder has lived in Ireland for the past 28 years as part of a mission and church plant. He discusses lessons he learned while planting a church in a cross-cultural setting and addresses some of the specific challenges he encountered.
This is the 279th episode of Anabaptist Perspectives, a podcast, blog, and YouTube channel that examines various aspects of conservative Anabaptist life and thought.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Be humble that we don't have all the answers
and we're just trying to learn as well
and try to put yourself in their shoes,
how we would feel if people come to us
like we're coming to them.
Try to learn what's important to them,
both in a negative and
positive sense what they like
(00:22):
and what they don't like.
To be their friend really is to listen to them,
give a listening ear.
Well, Dan, welcome to the
Anabaptist Perspectives podcast.
So we're filming this in Ireland
and you've lived here for
(00:42):
28 years, I believe it is.
That's right.
And the first question I have for you,
you were asked to come over here
as part of an outreach at a church plant.
What is it like doing an
outreach in a country like Ireland
that has at least
historically really deep Christian roots
and what all was part of that process?
And what was the history of
that as you came over here?
Well, yes, you're right.
(01:03):
Ireland has a history of
being a religious country,
sometimes called the land of saints and scholars.
So they've been like Trinity College in Dublin
has been there for I think over a thousand years.
It's a very old college
and the church has been well established here,
primary the Catholic
church in the last 100 years,
(01:25):
although for years before that,
it was also a Protestant church.
It's a lot of history there
when England drove Ireland,
it was more Protestant and it's more Catholic,
but it sort of gives the
people a sense of being Christian
because they believe the Bible, many of them do,
and many of them go to church.
(01:48):
And so there's somewhat a sense of feeling
that we're already
Christians, why should we listen to you?
What are you bringing us?
Something different.
In some cases, it's almost
like they were inoculated
against the message of the
gospel that we would want to bring
because they feel they are
(02:11):
Christian and they do believe,
a lot of them would believe
the same facts of the Bible
that we believe.
So yes, I'd say the main aspect of that is then
that it takes time to
earn their trust and respect.
We can't just convince them by talking
(02:33):
or knocking on the door and handing them a tract
and saying, "Look, why
don't you come to our church?"
They have a church as a rule,
most of our neighbors would.
And so we sense pretty
quickly that we need to just live
among the people here and live out our faith
(02:53):
in a day-to-day manner.
And that's part of the reason that we started
several different businesses
here to live and work right
with the people and reach
them on a down-to-earth level
where they live and buying and selling things,
(03:14):
baking things and so on that
we are seen to be working people
and not just living like
missionaries on missionary dole
welfare from the States.
We're trying to earn our own living here
as much as possible.
So you're already touching
on some of this, but yeah,
(03:35):
the difficulties you encountered, again,
you've been here 28 years,
I'm sure you've seen a lot
of difficulties and challenges.
You're in a, this isn't your home culture,
you're originally from America.
Yeah, describe some of
those challenges over the years
or the difficulties of these forms of outreach
and gaining people and so forth.
Yes, well, that's the, that is the essence of it
(03:59):
in that they already have a religion.
And so we didn't have,
it's been difficult to have
local people attending our church services.
One thing the Catholics in
the past at least were taught
that it's a serious sin to cross the threshold
into a Protestant church or a church
(04:21):
that's not a Catholic church.
Interesting, like why? They considered it
a serious sin.
Was that just because of
the conflict between Ireland
and England historically or
like the Catholic Protestant?
More than that, a conflict between Catholics
and Protestants.
Interesting.
I can't really tell you how that developed,
but I think they called it a venial sin,
(04:42):
which is a very serious one.
I'm not sure, I can't
describe all those terms completely.
But so much so that some
of the older people locally
would never have wanted to
walk into our church building.
Wow.
So it's a serious.
So that's a pretty
significant cultural or religious,
(05:03):
I guess, barrier, difficulty
that you've had to work with.
Work with.
But that thankfully is somewhat changing
with the younger generation.
I would say most of the
generation in the last 20 years now
growing up wouldn't really have a consciousness
(05:25):
of that as being so serious.
So that is improving in
the sense of breaking down
those barriers.
But historically, yeah, there would be stories
of very serious
conflict, even very nearby here,
if a Protestant would
marry a Catholic or vice versa.
They could be ostracized,
(05:46):
their house could be burned,
or there was just a tremendous conflict
between the two religions.
So it's good to keep that in mind
so we don't come across as being know it all
and haughty in any way,
but just to be careful that
some of them, that's their
impression of Protestants.
(06:07):
And see, to them, we're Protestants.
We don't, Anabaptists are not necessarily
Catholics or Protestants, but to them,
if you're not Catholic here, well, some people,
think we're Mormons, we must be Mormons.
Oh, interesting.
But it's kind of like
that's the only other bucket,
so to speak, to put people in.
(06:28):
If you're not Catholic, you have to be this.
That's, yeah, I'm sure every culture and country
and people and so forth has particular barriers
to get across, to engage them.
And so that, again, that feels
like a pretty significant one.
My sense would be, it probably needed
a lot of patience and faithfulness here.
(06:50):
Interesting that you use those two words.
It's a phrase that I have shared with people
many times is patient faithfulness.
I didn't know that.
Oh, that's really interesting.
Well, please tell me more then, yeah.
Well, that sort of came from sometimes
when people are here for a year or two or three
(07:15):
and the church hasn't grown in numbers
to where we have 50 or 100 or more people.
Like you probably would
find if you move to Africa,
to Kenya or some of those countries where people
seem to be more open to the gospel message
and to a conservative Anabaptist message.
(07:35):
So sometimes, and we may get into this later,
but sometimes the pressure
comes to what's wrong with us.
We're doing something wrong.
We need to change.
We need to make it more
attractive to the local people.
But I have observed enough,
and I could name a number
of places right off the top
(07:56):
of my head, where that approach,
churches have sort of gone that route
of accommodating the desires of the people
to make it easier and more platable.
And I'm not saying there's
nothing we should consider there,
but if we do everything people want,
(08:20):
we end up with, what do we end up with?
Not much of anything.
Just give one example.
One man came, local man, and he said,
see, we still sit the
brethren on one side of the sisters
and the other men and ladies.
And he said, you will never see,
local people walk in and see that,
(08:41):
they'll turn around, walk out.
They'll not come to a church like that.
So we talked about it.
That's not a Bible verse that you can point to
that we have to do that.
So anything like that
that's brought to our attention,
we will consider it.
We'll see, is that an accommodation
we should make to the culture of the people?
But then when we start talking,
(09:03):
another man who came from another culture said,
oh no, don't change that.
That's one of the things we
liked about the church here.
So now how do you please
these people and these people?
And you soon see that trying to please the people
is sort of a dead end road
because you probably end up displeasing
(09:26):
as many as you're pleasing
and maybe not be attractive to anyone.
So that term patient faithfulness,
we live out our faith.
We don't need to jump this
way and this way and this way
to try to keep these people from leaving
or to get them to come.
(09:46):
But patient faithfulness, year after year,
we'll show more to the people
that that's what they want for their families.
Something that's stable
and is not shifting quickly.
We've changed a few things
and we probably will some more,
but we don't do it quickly.
And not just because one or two people think
(10:08):
we should do this or that.
So that's where that phrase comes from.
Yeah, that's really helpful context there.
So let's flesh that out a bit.
How did you go about then?
Like reaching out to your neighbors,
doing outreach in this area, especially again,
this is cross-cultural, you know?
Yes, they speak English here,
but it is a different
culture, it's a different place.
(10:29):
And you've already mentioned like the patience,
faithfulness, those
things, but practically speaking,
what did it look like?
Or I guess I should say, what does it look like
in the work you all do here?
Well, early on, we looked
for something we could do
with our hands, partially to develop,
(10:50):
generate our own income so
we can be self-supporting
as much as possible.
And also so we can
interact with the local people.
So interacting with them on a day-to-day basis,
we were able to purchase a small store locally
where many people come in every day, really.
(11:13):
And so we, right away, we
bought it from a local couple
who was retiring and so it was a going business.
But of course they sold tobacco.
I'm not quite sure if they sold alcohol,
but they were open Sundays.
And so when we took it over,
we of course took out all the tobacco
(11:34):
and we started being closed on Sundays.
It was a pretty big
adjustment for the local community
to accept that, but eventually they did.
And of course it's a much bigger business now
than it was when we started with it.
And then with that, we have a stand
with Christian books in it.
(11:54):
And then later we were able to add a special room
as a Christian bookstore as well.
So to invite the local people in,
they come in for their bread and cakes and so on.
And they see a stand with Christian books on it.
And if they look a little bit more,
they'll see the room with a
(12:16):
lot more books and Bibles.
We also from the beginning
started a Choice Books ministry
where we not only sell the
books here locally in our store,
but we supply about 10 other
places all around the country.
Now that's interesting. Choice Books.
I didn't know Choice Books was here.
That's interesting.
Okay.
(12:37):
We just came from there a week or two ago.
Every time we can, we go to Choice Books
in Northern Virginia and
pick out an order of books
and have them sent over here.
So in that way, it's not just local,
but we've developed good
relationships with people
in Dublin and Cork and Limerick
and some of the bigger cities
around and help supply them.
(13:01):
They tend to be in
Christian bookstores or churches
rather than a store like Walmart.
We don't have Walmart's here,
but the general feeling here is,
and this would go back to the culture,
is that you don't mix your
secular with your sacred.
You go to church on Sunday and take care of that.
(13:22):
Then the rest of the week,
you live like everybody else.
And a local person warned us that for us
to put Christian books in our store
where people come in for bread and milk,
they won't like that because
you're sort of like pushing it
down their throat and
they don't like to see that.
They think we should keep
that out of the business arena.
(13:44):
And that just belongs to church on Sunday.
So we appreciated that council, but we didn't,
that's one area we didn't quite listen to them.
And we went ahead and put it in anyway.
And it doesn't affect them.
They can walk right past
and ignore it if they want to.
But it is strategically
right beside our coffee machines.
(14:04):
So as they wait for their
coffee, they're looking around
and they see these books.
And many people do pick
them up and look through them
and buy them off of there.
How we're engaging.
Another way was trying to develop occasions
to invite people in.
Now we do that in our own homes,
(14:26):
but we also do as a church quite early on.
We had once a year, we have a dinner for,
we started with this widows.
We can do a number of elderly widows.
So we invite them for, make
it a real special occasion,
maybe in October, November, before Christmas,
festive occasion.
(14:48):
And so that has grown.
We still do that.
We just did it a week or two ago.
And I don't know, 60 some
people maybe who come in.
And that's from all around.
And it's not only widows anymore, any elderly
or really good local
neighbors, friends who come in
and we'll have a dinner
(15:09):
and we'll have the young people sing a few songs.
And one thing they comment
on is there's no alcohol.
And to them, that's very
strange to have a formal dinner
and not have alcohol with it,
but they know that we just won't have that.
We've also had quite a few neighborhood,
(15:31):
like a summer evening, we'll have a barbecue
and invite all the local neighbors along the road
where we live or one of the other families
and have them come in for an evening meal
and just sit around and outside.
It's a bit rare evenings
here, generally almost too cool
for to sit outside, but
(15:52):
we bundle up if we have to.
So just to try to look for occasions like that
when we can bring them in
without a church service
that we're not preaching at them,
but did love the singing.
And then every year before Christmas,
we'll have a Christmas carol service with again,
(16:13):
the young people and the school children
singing quite a number of songs
and a lot of people like to come for that.
We've had Oasis Chorale here several times
with chorales from the States who come
and then we'll try to have a program here,
but also travel around in some other cities
and churches and programs.
(16:33):
So just various ways like that to reach out
to the local people.
There's definitely
intentionality I'm hearing here.
And we've been in the
community here a couple of days now
and I've been struck by numerous people I've met
or am going to meet here soon
that have come from the local community
(16:54):
or from general area that have joined.
And that's telling me, you're doing something.
That doesn't just happen for no reason.
People finding you and engaging with your church
and what's happening here.
Which brings me to another question
I think is one maybe we all wrestle with.
(17:14):
And that's the topic of welcoming seekers.
So people that are seeking,
maybe they're starting to attend,
whatever the case may be.
What is some practical advice
you would have for our people
as we think about welcoming
seekers into our churches?
And perhaps maybe have a
story to illustrate that as well.
Yes, well, hospitality is a big part of it.
(17:37):
I guess Amish-Mennonites
are known for their good cooking
and it's one thing we can offer to people
and really may be
surprised that many local people
wouldn't have quite the
experience of cooking a big meal
like we would be used to.
So to invite people in and share a good meal
(18:00):
or it can be a simple cup of tea as well.
It doesn't always have to be a meal.
But hospitality to welcome them into our homes.
Also to learn to understand their culture.
I don't think Americans often realize
(18:22):
how we come across to people of other countries.
If you've always lived in the States,
you sort of feel like
America's the center of the world
and everybody else is foreign.
And so to really work on that,
(18:45):
to recognize that to other people,
their place of growing up
is the center of the world.
And we always have to work on this
to not be insensitive in remarks that we make.
Some people come and just sort of make fun of,
(19:06):
you drive on the wrong side of the road.
Why are you driving the wrong side of the road?
Well, it's not really the wrong side of the road.
It's the left side and
it's different from America,
but you go to England or even Kenya,
a lot of other countries
drive on the left side too.
So one thing that we
would say in welcoming seekers
(19:27):
is to be sensitive to their culture
and respect them for who they are
and their sensitivities and Ireland especially
is... Irish people have a long memory.
And for many years,
they were ruled and
(19:49):
oppressed by the British Empire
and they were treated very cruelly.
There's no question about that.
The potato famine, if you
want to do any Irish history
study is very much in the people's minds
still. The blight came through,
people lived on potatoes basically.
And the potato blight came
(20:09):
through and killed the potatoes.
So the Irish people
starved, they had nothing to eat.
But the thing is the English owned the land.
They were Protestant and they made it illegal
for a Catholic to own any land.
So they basically had the Irish as slaves
and they didn't share their
excess, their food with them.
(20:30):
So over a million people died
and another million emigrated to America
and other countries.
Irish people have that in their mind
and it's not only history because to this day,
Northern Ireland belongs to England.
The six Northern most counties on this island
(20:51):
are still British in a
country called Northern Ireland.
It doesn't mean just the North of Ireland,
it's actually a separate country.
And so even the present
generation has a difficult time.
Some people especially
forgetting that or laying that down
(21:12):
and we have to be careful that we don't
don't feed that or say things that make them
feel that more painfully again.
Even in the church, if you have people
of British background and of Irish background,
(21:33):
it can be very difficult to lay down
that ancient animosity between the two
because it goes back generations.
And like I say, it's not only history
because it's still alive in Northern Ireland
and there's a strong push from the Irish
to absorb those six counties
into the Republic of Ireland
where we are here and let
(21:55):
the British go to England
where they belong and
make it all one country here.
So it's actually an active issue.
So politically, you read a lot about it.
Some parties are really pushing for that.
So sensitivity to their culture
is one thing that's very important.
Sometimes ministers even very well meaning
(22:17):
can say things that are
offensive to Irish people.
So try to avoid doing that.
You wouldn't want to across the pulpit talk about
going hunting, a kind of, I
know one minister who gave it.
We had a good example of trapping some animals.
(22:39):
Well in Ireland, trapping or hunting,
there's some hunting but
guns are mostly outlawed.
And so there's a real
sensitive spot for any sport like that.
And Americans are known for being gung ho
on those things.
(laughing)
So there's a whole range of things like that.
(23:04):
It's kind of like entering a culture as a learner
or humbly, perhaps maybe not assuming
oh because this is the way we do things
and obviously this is the
way everybody else is too.
That's right.
It's not. It's not.
The hunting one, I wouldn't have thought of that.
But now that you say it's like oh yeah,
(23:25):
obviously that makes sense.
And I think for people listening to this,
as they interact with their neighbors
or whoever it is, they're doing outreach to.
I think the same principles apply anywhere.
Yes, that's true.
We're dealing with humans.
Which is another question
I wanted to ask you too.
I'm guessing..I'm sure,
(23:47):
quite a few people listening to this podcast
are working in some type
of cross-cultural ministry
whether that's just the immigrant neighbors
that they might have or maybe they're
on the mission field somewhere or whatever.
There's lots of different ways.
What's some advice you would give them
based on your experience
working cross-culturally,
what would you say to those people?
(24:08):
Well it would be similar to
what we've been talking about.
Here is to learn the things that,
try to learn from them and be humble, yes.
Be humble that we don't have all the answers
and we're just trying to learn as well.
And try to put yourself in their shoes,
(24:30):
how we would feel if people come to us
like we're coming to them.
Try to learn what's important to them
and both negative and positive.
Since what they like and what they don't like
to be their friend really is to listen to them,
(24:52):
give a listening ear.
This is what we would have
picked up from here I suppose.
You mentioned stories in the previous question.
I'd like to share this as an example.
In the cultural area, a
local lady who was a good friend
(25:12):
of ours traveled to America and she went to visit
some plain people, Amish-Mennonite people, who were connected
with people here in a way.
They were invited to somebody's home.
So they were there and she
was telling us about this
after she came back and she
(25:33):
said they came to this house
and they went in and sat down and visited
and the people never offered them a cup of tea.
And she said she felt they were judging her
because she's not plain like they are.
And she was very offended by that,
that there was no cup of tea offered.
Well here that's just what
(25:53):
you do when someone comes in
and sits down to talk and
sometimes even a business,
somebody comes to buy a car or something
and you need to sit down and talk about it.
Always offer a cup of tea
is just about the first thing
you offer, tea or coffee, usually tea.
So she was offended
because, and she didn't understand
(26:14):
that that's the American way you might offer
a glass of water maybe or
often don't even really think
about doing that.
And so learning to value their culture
and what is important to
them would be part of the answer
(26:35):
to your question I think.
And then not to, like I was
saying earlier about the church,
not to quickly feel like
we need to change our ways
to attract them or to keep them.
(26:55):
To me that's different than offering cup of tea
or being sensitive to things that we might say
that offend them, all of
those things we really need to do.
But then to change the way we
live out the Christian life,
that's sort of in a different category
as I would understand it, the way we do church,
so to speak.
There too we can do some.
(27:17):
We have our practice in the
past and in many plain churches
is when you kneel in prayer,
you turn around and kneel.
I don't know if you understand what I mean,
on the, you kneel on the floor, of course,
rest your hands on the
bench where you were sitting.
Well, that seemed very
strange to the people here.
(27:38):
And so we made that
adjustment, that accommodation
and we kneel facing forward toward the platform,
toward the speaker and the front.
We feel you can make accommodations like that,
that would be respecting
the culture wherever we can,
that doesn't violate what
(27:58):
we believe is important.
We will look for things like that that we can do.
We start our church services a little later.
Many churches here don't start till 11 o'clock
on a Sunday morning.
What is it often 9:30, I think, in the States?
Many times.
And that would just seem
very strange to people here.
So we started 10:30, we tried
(28:20):
to sort of hit a middle ground
but accommodations like that, we can make
and try to make it a bit
more like the culture here
where we can.
So as we wrap this episode up
and we're thinking about reaching out
to those cross-culturally or missions,
(28:41):
maybe someone listening to this is working
with their neighbors that
are refugees, et cetera.
Is there any encouragement or anything else
you would like to leave with the listeners
based on what we've been talking about today?
Can't really think of, I think we've covered
most of the bases.
The hospitality is important to welcome them in,
(29:05):
give a listening ear,
especially if it would be refugees.
They've often been traumatized and gone through
difficult experiences.
If I can just give you another quick story
of a local lady that might, I don't know,
would it quite fit that, but it might.
(29:26):
She was a Jehovah's Witness and she visited one
of our families and started noticing some things
that she liked in that family and started coming
with her questions,
wondering whether we have something
that she doesn't.
And so she started coming to our house
(29:46):
and so for several years she would come,
every Monday evening, she studied the Bible
with the church she was with, but they taught her
that they're the only right church and yet
there were just some
things that didn't quite line up
in her way of thinking.
And so night after night she would come
(30:10):
and this is what she would say is that "My church
says they are right and you are wrong.
You are saying you are
right and my church is wrong.
How can I know who is right?
I want what's right."
And she had tears streaming down her face.
(30:32):
She wanted what was right in a very desperate way.
How could we persuade her that we are right
and the church is wrong, we couldn't,
but we just assured her that God will show her
as she desperately, as she
sincerely wants the truth.
And at first she could not accept a Bible from us
(30:53):
because they had their own Bibles
and they won't look at any other translation.
But the day came when she
finally did accept a Bible
that was not a Jehovah's Witness Bible.
And once she started reading that,
it started to open her eyes till the day came
and she gave her heart to the Lord.
She is a Christian to this day.
(31:15):
So it took years.
And if you, so the idea of
patience there comes in again,
to just, you can't force it, you can't rush it,
but to be a friend and give a listening ear
and many cups of tea or whatever they like
(31:37):
and just be a genuine friend.
That's about the best I could say, I guess.
And point them to the Lord,
but you don't always start with a Bible verse
or a Bible or a tract, you know,
it can be the cup of tea, the friendship
that they feel first and then that can.
It's a very good book written,
(31:58):
The Gospel Comes with a House Key.
Have you seen that? Yes, I've read it.
Oh, it's excellent, yeah.
That's the idea.
Mm-hmm.
That's a powerful note.
It is testimony to. Yeah.
That lady you're talking about there,
God will show you, right?
And there's that verse, If you seek, you'll find.
Jesus is very clear about that.
(32:18):
If you're seeking, you'll find.
And pointing people to that
and reminding them of that.
That's a powerful note to end on.
Thank you, Dan, for the
28 years you've lived here
and the stories you've shared with us today.
I think there's a lot that
we can learn from your story.
So thank you for sharing.
Thank you.
Thanks for listening to this episode with Dan.
(32:41):
If you found this interesting,
you should check out this other episode we did
with Allen Roth on the subject of church planting.
You can find that linked in
the description down below.
And of course, you can find
all the content we've made
on our website at anabaptistperspectives.org.
We also have a monthly email newsletter,
which you can subscribe to on the website.
Thanks again for listening
(33:01):
and we'll see you in the next episode.
Be humble that we don't have all the answers
and we're just trying to learn as well
and try to put yourself in their shoes,
how we would feel if people come to us
like we're coming to them.
Try to learn what's important to them,
both in a negative and
positive sense what they like
(00:22):
and what they don't like.
To be their friend really is to listen to them,
give a listening ear.
Well, Dan, welcome to the
Anabaptist Perspectives podcast.
So we're filming this in Ireland
and you've lived here for
(00:42):
28 years, I believe it is.
That's right.
And the first question I have for you,
you were asked to come over here
as part of an outreach at a church plant.
What is it like doing an
outreach in a country like Ireland
that has at least
historically really deep Christian roots
and what all was part of that process?
And what was the history of
that as you came over here?
Well, yes, you're right.
(01:03):
Ireland has a history of
being a religious country,
sometimes called the land of saints and scholars.
So they've been like Trinity College in Dublin
has been there for I think over a thousand years.
It's a very old college
and the church has been well established here,
primary the Catholic
church in the last 100 years,
(01:25):
although for years before that,
it was also a Protestant church.
It's a lot of history there
when England drove Ireland,
it was more Protestant and it's more Catholic,
but it sort of gives the
people a sense of being Christian
because they believe the Bible, many of them do,
and many of them go to church.
(01:48):
And so there's somewhat a sense of feeling
that we're already
Christians, why should we listen to you?
What are you bringing us?
Something different.
In some cases, it's almost
like they were inoculated
against the message of the
gospel that we would want to bring
because they feel they are
(02:11):
Christian and they do believe,
a lot of them would believe
the same facts of the Bible
that we believe.
So yes, I'd say the main aspect of that is then
that it takes time to
earn their trust and respect.
We can't just convince them by talking
(02:33):
or knocking on the door and handing them a tract
and saying, "Look, why
don't you come to our church?"
They have a church as a rule,
most of our neighbors would.
And so we sense pretty
quickly that we need to just live
among the people here and live out our faith
(02:53):
in a day-to-day manner.
And that's part of the reason that we started
several different businesses
here to live and work right
with the people and reach
them on a down-to-earth level
where they live and buying and selling things,
(03:14):
baking things and so on that
we are seen to be working people
and not just living like
missionaries on missionary dole
welfare from the States.
We're trying to earn our own living here
as much as possible.
So you're already touching
on some of this, but yeah,
(03:35):
the difficulties you encountered, again,
you've been here 28 years,
I'm sure you've seen a lot
of difficulties and challenges.
You're in a, this isn't your home culture,
you're originally from America.
Yeah, describe some of
those challenges over the years
or the difficulties of these forms of outreach
and gaining people and so forth.
Yes, well, that's the, that is the essence of it
(03:59):
in that they already have a religion.
And so we didn't have,
it's been difficult to have
local people attending our church services.
One thing the Catholics in
the past at least were taught
that it's a serious sin to cross the threshold
into a Protestant church or a church
(04:21):
that's not a Catholic church.
Interesting, like why? They considered it
a serious sin.
Was that just because of
the conflict between Ireland
and England historically or
like the Catholic Protestant?
More than that, a conflict between Catholics
and Protestants.
Interesting.
I can't really tell you how that developed,
but I think they called it a venial sin,
(04:42):
which is a very serious one.
I'm not sure, I can't
describe all those terms completely.
But so much so that some
of the older people locally
would never have wanted to
walk into our church building.
Wow.
So it's a serious.
So that's a pretty
significant cultural or religious,
(05:03):
I guess, barrier, difficulty
that you've had to work with.
Work with.
But that thankfully is somewhat changing
with the younger generation.
I would say most of the
generation in the last 20 years now
growing up wouldn't really have a consciousness
(05:25):
of that as being so serious.
So that is improving in
the sense of breaking down
those barriers.
But historically, yeah, there would be stories
of very serious
conflict, even very nearby here,
if a Protestant would
marry a Catholic or vice versa.
They could be ostracized,
(05:46):
their house could be burned,
or there was just a tremendous conflict
between the two religions.
So it's good to keep that in mind
so we don't come across as being know it all
and haughty in any way,
but just to be careful that
some of them, that's their
impression of Protestants.
(06:07):
And see, to them, we're Protestants.
We don't, Anabaptists are not necessarily
Catholics or Protestants, but to them,
if you're not Catholic here, well, some people,
think we're Mormons, we must be Mormons.
Oh, interesting.
But it's kind of like
that's the only other bucket,
so to speak, to put people in.
(06:28):
If you're not Catholic, you have to be this.
That's, yeah, I'm sure every culture and country
and people and so forth has particular barriers
to get across, to engage them.
And so that, again, that feels
like a pretty significant one.
My sense would be, it probably needed
a lot of patience and faithfulness here.
(06:50):
Interesting that you use those two words.
It's a phrase that I have shared with people
many times is patient faithfulness.
I didn't know that.
Oh, that's really interesting.
Well, please tell me more then, yeah.
Well, that sort of came from sometimes
when people are here for a year or two or three
(07:15):
and the church hasn't grown in numbers
to where we have 50 or 100 or more people.
Like you probably would
find if you move to Africa,
to Kenya or some of those countries where people
seem to be more open to the gospel message
and to a conservative Anabaptist message.
(07:35):
So sometimes, and we may get into this later,
but sometimes the pressure
comes to what's wrong with us.
We're doing something wrong.
We need to change.
We need to make it more
attractive to the local people.
But I have observed enough,
and I could name a number
of places right off the top
(07:56):
of my head, where that approach,
churches have sort of gone that route
of accommodating the desires of the people
to make it easier and more platable.
And I'm not saying there's
nothing we should consider there,
but if we do everything people want,
(08:20):
we end up with, what do we end up with?
Not much of anything.
Just give one example.
One man came, local man, and he said,
see, we still sit the
brethren on one side of the sisters
and the other men and ladies.
And he said, you will never see,
local people walk in and see that,
(08:41):
they'll turn around, walk out.
They'll not come to a church like that.
So we talked about it.
That's not a Bible verse that you can point to
that we have to do that.
So anything like that
that's brought to our attention,
we will consider it.
We'll see, is that an accommodation
we should make to the culture of the people?
But then when we start talking,
(09:03):
another man who came from another culture said,
oh no, don't change that.
That's one of the things we
liked about the church here.
So now how do you please
these people and these people?
And you soon see that trying to please the people
is sort of a dead end road
because you probably end up displeasing
(09:26):
as many as you're pleasing
and maybe not be attractive to anyone.
So that term patient faithfulness,
we live out our faith.
We don't need to jump this
way and this way and this way
to try to keep these people from leaving
or to get them to come.
(09:46):
But patient faithfulness, year after year,
we'll show more to the people
that that's what they want for their families.
Something that's stable
and is not shifting quickly.
We've changed a few things
and we probably will some more,
but we don't do it quickly.
And not just because one or two people think
(10:08):
we should do this or that.
So that's where that phrase comes from.
Yeah, that's really helpful context there.
So let's flesh that out a bit.
How did you go about then?
Like reaching out to your neighbors,
doing outreach in this area, especially again,
this is cross-cultural, you know?
Yes, they speak English here,
but it is a different
culture, it's a different place.
(10:29):
And you've already mentioned like the patience,
faithfulness, those
things, but practically speaking,
what did it look like?
Or I guess I should say, what does it look like
in the work you all do here?
Well, early on, we looked
for something we could do
with our hands, partially to develop,
(10:50):
generate our own income so
we can be self-supporting
as much as possible.
And also so we can
interact with the local people.
So interacting with them on a day-to-day basis,
we were able to purchase a small store locally
where many people come in every day, really.
(11:13):
And so we, right away, we
bought it from a local couple
who was retiring and so it was a going business.
But of course they sold tobacco.
I'm not quite sure if they sold alcohol,
but they were open Sundays.
And so when we took it over,
we of course took out all the tobacco
(11:34):
and we started being closed on Sundays.
It was a pretty big
adjustment for the local community
to accept that, but eventually they did.
And of course it's a much bigger business now
than it was when we started with it.
And then with that, we have a stand
with Christian books in it.
(11:54):
And then later we were able to add a special room
as a Christian bookstore as well.
So to invite the local people in,
they come in for their bread and cakes and so on.
And they see a stand with Christian books on it.
And if they look a little bit more,
they'll see the room with a
(12:16):
lot more books and Bibles.
We also from the beginning
started a Choice Books ministry
where we not only sell the
books here locally in our store,
but we supply about 10 other
places all around the country.
Now that's interesting. Choice Books.
I didn't know Choice Books was here.
That's interesting.
Okay.
(12:37):
We just came from there a week or two ago.
Every time we can, we go to Choice Books
in Northern Virginia and
pick out an order of books
and have them sent over here.
So in that way, it's not just local,
but we've developed good
relationships with people
in Dublin and Cork and Limerick
and some of the bigger cities
around and help supply them.
(13:01):
They tend to be in
Christian bookstores or churches
rather than a store like Walmart.
We don't have Walmart's here,
but the general feeling here is,
and this would go back to the culture,
is that you don't mix your
secular with your sacred.
You go to church on Sunday and take care of that.
(13:22):
Then the rest of the week,
you live like everybody else.
And a local person warned us that for us
to put Christian books in our store
where people come in for bread and milk,
they won't like that because
you're sort of like pushing it
down their throat and
they don't like to see that.
They think we should keep
that out of the business arena.
(13:44):
And that just belongs to church on Sunday.
So we appreciated that council, but we didn't,
that's one area we didn't quite listen to them.
And we went ahead and put it in anyway.
And it doesn't affect them.
They can walk right past
and ignore it if they want to.
But it is strategically
right beside our coffee machines.
(14:04):
So as they wait for their
coffee, they're looking around
and they see these books.
And many people do pick
them up and look through them
and buy them off of there.
How we're engaging.
Another way was trying to develop occasions
to invite people in.
Now we do that in our own homes,
(14:26):
but we also do as a church quite early on.
We had once a year, we have a dinner for,
we started with this widows.
We can do a number of elderly widows.
So we invite them for, make
it a real special occasion,
maybe in October, November, before Christmas,
festive occasion.
(14:48):
And so that has grown.
We still do that.
We just did it a week or two ago.
And I don't know, 60 some
people maybe who come in.
And that's from all around.
And it's not only widows anymore, any elderly
or really good local
neighbors, friends who come in
and we'll have a dinner
(15:09):
and we'll have the young people sing a few songs.
And one thing they comment
on is there's no alcohol.
And to them, that's very
strange to have a formal dinner
and not have alcohol with it,
but they know that we just won't have that.
We've also had quite a few neighborhood,
(15:31):
like a summer evening, we'll have a barbecue
and invite all the local neighbors along the road
where we live or one of the other families
and have them come in for an evening meal
and just sit around and outside.
It's a bit rare evenings
here, generally almost too cool
for to sit outside, but
(15:52):
we bundle up if we have to.
So just to try to look for occasions like that
when we can bring them in
without a church service
that we're not preaching at them,
but did love the singing.
And then every year before Christmas,
we'll have a Christmas carol service with again,
(16:13):
the young people and the school children
singing quite a number of songs
and a lot of people like to come for that.
We've had Oasis Chorale here several times
with chorales from the States who come
and then we'll try to have a program here,
but also travel around in some other cities
and churches and programs.
(16:33):
So just various ways like that to reach out
to the local people.
There's definitely
intentionality I'm hearing here.
And we've been in the
community here a couple of days now
and I've been struck by numerous people I've met
or am going to meet here soon
that have come from the local community
(16:54):
or from general area that have joined.
And that's telling me, you're doing something.
That doesn't just happen for no reason.
People finding you and engaging with your church
and what's happening here.
Which brings me to another question
I think is one maybe we all wrestle with.
(17:14):
And that's the topic of welcoming seekers.
So people that are seeking,
maybe they're starting to attend,
whatever the case may be.
What is some practical advice
you would have for our people
as we think about welcoming
seekers into our churches?
And perhaps maybe have a
story to illustrate that as well.
Yes, well, hospitality is a big part of it.
(17:37):
I guess Amish-Mennonites
are known for their good cooking
and it's one thing we can offer to people
and really may be
surprised that many local people
wouldn't have quite the
experience of cooking a big meal
like we would be used to.
So to invite people in and share a good meal
(18:00):
or it can be a simple cup of tea as well.
It doesn't always have to be a meal.
But hospitality to welcome them into our homes.
Also to learn to understand their culture.
I don't think Americans often realize
(18:22):
how we come across to people of other countries.
If you've always lived in the States,
you sort of feel like
America's the center of the world
and everybody else is foreign.
And so to really work on that,
(18:45):
to recognize that to other people,
their place of growing up
is the center of the world.
And we always have to work on this
to not be insensitive in remarks that we make.
Some people come and just sort of make fun of,
(19:06):
you drive on the wrong side of the road.
Why are you driving the wrong side of the road?
Well, it's not really the wrong side of the road.
It's the left side and
it's different from America,
but you go to England or even Kenya,
a lot of other countries
drive on the left side too.
So one thing that we
would say in welcoming seekers
(19:27):
is to be sensitive to their culture
and respect them for who they are
and their sensitivities and Ireland especially
is... Irish people have a long memory.
And for many years,
they were ruled and
(19:49):
oppressed by the British Empire
and they were treated very cruelly.
There's no question about that.
The potato famine, if you
want to do any Irish history
study is very much in the people's minds
still. The blight came through,
people lived on potatoes basically.
And the potato blight came
(20:09):
through and killed the potatoes.
So the Irish people
starved, they had nothing to eat.
But the thing is the English owned the land.
They were Protestant and they made it illegal
for a Catholic to own any land.
So they basically had the Irish as slaves
and they didn't share their
excess, their food with them.
(20:30):
So over a million people died
and another million emigrated to America
and other countries.
Irish people have that in their mind
and it's not only history because to this day,
Northern Ireland belongs to England.
The six Northern most counties on this island
(20:51):
are still British in a
country called Northern Ireland.
It doesn't mean just the North of Ireland,
it's actually a separate country.
And so even the present
generation has a difficult time.
Some people especially
forgetting that or laying that down
(21:12):
and we have to be careful that we don't
don't feed that or say things that make them
feel that more painfully again.
Even in the church, if you have people
of British background and of Irish background,
(21:33):
it can be very difficult to lay down
that ancient animosity between the two
because it goes back generations.
And like I say, it's not only history
because it's still alive in Northern Ireland
and there's a strong push from the Irish
to absorb those six counties
into the Republic of Ireland
where we are here and let
(21:55):
the British go to England
where they belong and
make it all one country here.
So it's actually an active issue.
So politically, you read a lot about it.
Some parties are really pushing for that.
So sensitivity to their culture
is one thing that's very important.
Sometimes ministers even very well meaning
(22:17):
can say things that are
offensive to Irish people.
So try to avoid doing that.
You wouldn't want to across the pulpit talk about
going hunting, a kind of, I
know one minister who gave it.
We had a good example of trapping some animals.
(22:39):
Well in Ireland, trapping or hunting,
there's some hunting but
guns are mostly outlawed.
And so there's a real
sensitive spot for any sport like that.
And Americans are known for being gung ho
on those things.
(laughing)
So there's a whole range of things like that.
(23:04):
It's kind of like entering a culture as a learner
or humbly, perhaps maybe not assuming
oh because this is the way we do things
and obviously this is the
way everybody else is too.
That's right.
It's not. It's not.
The hunting one, I wouldn't have thought of that.
But now that you say it's like oh yeah,
(23:25):
obviously that makes sense.
And I think for people listening to this,
as they interact with their neighbors
or whoever it is, they're doing outreach to.
I think the same principles apply anywhere.
Yes, that's true.
We're dealing with humans.
Which is another question
I wanted to ask you too.
I'm guessing..I'm sure,
(23:47):
quite a few people listening to this podcast
are working in some type
of cross-cultural ministry
whether that's just the immigrant neighbors
that they might have or maybe they're
on the mission field somewhere or whatever.
There's lots of different ways.
What's some advice you would give them
based on your experience
working cross-culturally,
what would you say to those people?
(24:08):
Well it would be similar to
what we've been talking about.
Here is to learn the things that,
try to learn from them and be humble, yes.
Be humble that we don't have all the answers
and we're just trying to learn as well.
And try to put yourself in their shoes,
(24:30):
how we would feel if people come to us
like we're coming to them.
Try to learn what's important to them
and both negative and positive.
Since what they like and what they don't like
to be their friend really is to listen to them,
(24:52):
give a listening ear.
This is what we would have
picked up from here I suppose.
You mentioned stories in the previous question.
I'd like to share this as an example.
In the cultural area, a
local lady who was a good friend
(25:12):
of ours traveled to America and she went to visit
some plain people, Amish-Mennonite people, who were connected
with people here in a way.
They were invited to somebody's home.
So they were there and she
was telling us about this
after she came back and she
(25:33):
said they came to this house
and they went in and sat down and visited
and the people never offered them a cup of tea.
And she said she felt they were judging her
because she's not plain like they are.
And she was very offended by that,
that there was no cup of tea offered.
Well here that's just what
(25:53):
you do when someone comes in
and sits down to talk and
sometimes even a business,
somebody comes to buy a car or something
and you need to sit down and talk about it.
Always offer a cup of tea
is just about the first thing
you offer, tea or coffee, usually tea.
So she was offended
because, and she didn't understand
(26:14):
that that's the American way you might offer
a glass of water maybe or
often don't even really think
about doing that.
And so learning to value their culture
and what is important to
them would be part of the answer
(26:35):
to your question I think.
And then not to, like I was
saying earlier about the church,
not to quickly feel like
we need to change our ways
to attract them or to keep them.
(26:55):
To me that's different than offering cup of tea
or being sensitive to things that we might say
that offend them, all of
those things we really need to do.
But then to change the way we
live out the Christian life,
that's sort of in a different category
as I would understand it, the way we do church,
so to speak.
There too we can do some.
(27:17):
We have our practice in the
past and in many plain churches
is when you kneel in prayer,
you turn around and kneel.
I don't know if you understand what I mean,
on the, you kneel on the floor, of course,
rest your hands on the
bench where you were sitting.
Well, that seemed very
strange to the people here.
(27:38):
And so we made that
adjustment, that accommodation
and we kneel facing forward toward the platform,
toward the speaker and the front.
We feel you can make accommodations like that,
that would be respecting
the culture wherever we can,
that doesn't violate what
(27:58):
we believe is important.
We will look for things like that that we can do.
We start our church services a little later.
Many churches here don't start till 11 o'clock
on a Sunday morning.
What is it often 9:30, I think, in the States?
Many times.
And that would just seem
very strange to people here.
So we started 10:30, we tried
(28:20):
to sort of hit a middle ground
but accommodations like that, we can make
and try to make it a bit
more like the culture here
where we can.
So as we wrap this episode up
and we're thinking about reaching out
to those cross-culturally or missions,
(28:41):
maybe someone listening to this is working
with their neighbors that
are refugees, et cetera.
Is there any encouragement or anything else
you would like to leave with the listeners
based on what we've been talking about today?
Can't really think of, I think we've covered
most of the bases.
The hospitality is important to welcome them in,
(29:05):
give a listening ear,
especially if it would be refugees.
They've often been traumatized and gone through
difficult experiences.
If I can just give you another quick story
of a local lady that might, I don't know,
would it quite fit that, but it might.
(29:26):
She was a Jehovah's Witness and she visited one
of our families and started noticing some things
that she liked in that family and started coming
with her questions,
wondering whether we have something
that she doesn't.
And so she started coming to our house
(29:46):
and so for several years she would come,
every Monday evening, she studied the Bible
with the church she was with, but they taught her
that they're the only right church and yet
there were just some
things that didn't quite line up
in her way of thinking.
And so night after night she would come
(30:10):
and this is what she would say is that "My church
says they are right and you are wrong.
You are saying you are
right and my church is wrong.
How can I know who is right?
I want what's right."
And she had tears streaming down her face.
(30:32):
She wanted what was right in a very desperate way.
How could we persuade her that we are right
and the church is wrong, we couldn't,
but we just assured her that God will show her
as she desperately, as she
sincerely wants the truth.
And at first she could not accept a Bible from us
(30:53):
because they had their own Bibles
and they won't look at any other translation.
But the day came when she
finally did accept a Bible
that was not a Jehovah's Witness Bible.
And once she started reading that,
it started to open her eyes till the day came
and she gave her heart to the Lord.
She is a Christian to this day.
(31:15):
So it took years.
And if you, so the idea of
patience there comes in again,
to just, you can't force it, you can't rush it,
but to be a friend and give a listening ear
and many cups of tea or whatever they like
(31:37):
and just be a genuine friend.
That's about the best I could say, I guess.
And point them to the Lord,
but you don't always start with a Bible verse
or a Bible or a tract, you know,
it can be the cup of tea, the friendship
that they feel first and then that can.
It's a very good book written,
(31:58):
The Gospel Comes with a House Key.
Have you seen that? Yes, I've read it.
Oh, it's excellent, yeah.
That's the idea.
Mm-hmm.
That's a powerful note.
It is testimony to. Yeah.
That lady you're talking about there,
God will show you, right?
And there's that verse, If you seek, you'll find.
Jesus is very clear about that.
(32:18):
If you're seeking, you'll find.
And pointing people to that
and reminding them of that.
That's a powerful note to end on.
Thank you, Dan, for the
28 years you've lived here
and the stories you've shared with us today.
I think there's a lot that
we can learn from your story.
So thank you for sharing.
Thank you.
Thanks for listening to this episode with Dan.
(32:41):
If you found this interesting,
you should check out this other episode we did
with Allen Roth on the subject of church planting.
You can find that linked in
the description down below.
And of course, you can find
all the content we've made
on our website at anabaptistperspectives.org.
We also have a monthly email newsletter,
which you can subscribe to on the website.
Thanks again for listening
(33:01):
and we'll see you in the next episode.
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