June 5, 2025 • 24 mins
A listener asked: “Which early church creeds can Anabaptists affirm?” Jaran, Marlin, and Reagan discuss how the Anabaptists have engaged with the Apostle’s Creed and the Nicene Creed. What did the early Anabaptists believe about the Creeds?
The Complete Writings of Menno Simons:
Lecture on the Trinity with David Bercot:
Christina Moss’ statement about Anabaptists and creeds:
2024 Motion to Add the Nicene Creed to the Baptist Faith and Message:
Approaching the Great Tradition:
This is the 270th episode of Anabaptist Perspectives, a podcast, blog, and YouTube channel that examines various aspects of conservative Anabaptist life and thought.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Yes. I think Mennonites have affirmedthe Apostle's Creed.
But there's things we tend to get
fuzzyon, and church tends to get fuzzy on.
So one of the items of the creed, like,
you know,I believe in the resurrection of the body.
Okay, that's pretty fundamentalto Christianity. But.
You know, it has not been uncommonto talk about resurrection or,
(00:23):
you know, the future life in waysthat you almost don't
need to raise the body because, you know,you go to heaven when you die.
And that's the Christian hope,
you know, would we have struggled lesswith that, downplaying the resurrection
if, you know, we were routinely saying,I believe in the resurrection of the body,
like this is fundamental,
(00:48):
So on this podcast,
we get a fair amount of interactionfrom the audience,
people sending us emails,leaving comments and things like that.
And there is one questionthat actually you and I did on a partners
episode,which people can go to the website
to see the partner program,but we're going to dive into that a bit.
Here on the main channeland a few other things as well,
(01:10):
because feel it has a lot of relevancefor our audience.
And someone named Travisleft us this comment.
I'll just read thisand then, you can respond says,
which of the early churchcreeds can Anabaptists affirm?
And that got us thinkinga bit of the Anabaptists and the creeds,
and how, at least in my own experience,I just haven't thought about it that much.
(01:32):
So you did a little bit of digging onthat, and, I'd be.
Yeah.
Interested in what you have to sharewith us here, Jaran?
Yeah.
This question brings to mind, the episode that we did with David Bercot.
It was actually a lecturethat he presented where he spoke
about the Trinity.
I think it's a lecturethat we can recommend to our audience
sometime in the course of that episode,he asked the audience of,
(01:55):
presumably Mennonites, how many people
he asked how many are familiarwith the Apostle's Creed.
And you were there, I believe I wasn't.
Did you see how many hands went up?
It wasn't many.
I wish I could remember percentages.
It was about 40 people there,and they were all Mennonites.
Yeah, And that was the Apostle's Creedor the Nicene Creed
(02:18):
or both?
Did go downeven lower with the Nicene Creed.
I think he asked both.
We might have to
I might have to dig up some old footageand see if I can find, like,
how many peopleactually raise their hands.
But it was not many, No.
Well, whichever the case,I think that it's sad and too bad
that we are notmore cognizant of the creeds
(02:39):
because they matter and we do affirm them.
We are Orthodox Christians.
There's a blog post that I would.
Oh, we should read the Creed first,shouldn't we?
I was going to say yes.
So, This is interesting that you mentionedthis, that it feels like there
isn't that much familiarity.
That would be in my ownpersonal experience.
(02:59):
I honestly, I wasn't familiar
with the Apostle's Creedand the Nicene Creed,
a lot of these thingsuntil I went looking for it.
And it's talkingto different people in my life,
and they're like, Apostle's Creed,I don't know.
I've never, never read that. Like,I don't I don't know what that even is.
And, so yeah, why don't we actually,just before we launch too deep,
just read this.
The Apostle's Creed,I have the Apostle's Creed in front of me.
(03:20):
It is. It is brief.
I believe in
God, the Father Almighty,creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ,his only son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spiritand born of the Virgin Mary.
He suffered under Pontius Pilate,was crucified, died, and was buried.
(03:40):
He descended to hell.
The third day he rose again from the dead.
He ascended to heaven and is seated at theright hand of God the Father Almighty.
From there he will come to judgethe living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,the holy Catholic Church,
the communion of saints,the forgiveness of sins,
(04:01):
the resurrection of the body,and the life everlasting.
Amen.
That is the Apostle's Creed.
And we affirm it.
There is a blog post written by Christina
Moss on anabaptisthistorians.org.
(04:23):
She posted this in 2020.
I think she summarizes things quite well.
In the four years since I first beganattending a Mennonite church.
I have sometimes heard Anabaptistreferred to as non creedal Christians.
It is certainly truethat when asked to describe what it means
to be Anabaptist, most Anabaptistwill understandably give an answer
(04:43):
that prioritizes doctrines and practicesthat are not common
to the majority of Christian churches,particularly pacifism or creedo baptism.
Similarly, when drawing doctrinalboundaries around their churches,
something they were as ready to doas the state churches,
though not at the point of the sword.
Anabaptists have tended to appealto Scripture directly since it,
(05:07):
since its authority superseded any creeds
and confessions, however valuable.
Nevertheless, insofaras the Apostle’s and Nicene Creeds
can be said to summarize the essentialsof the Christian faith.
The earliest Anabaptists upheld theseteachings, with only a few exceptions.
(05:28):
What she says resonates with my experience
about how Anabaptiststend to talk about things.
But I do believe that
she is right that the earliest,
the earliest Anabaptistsupheld the teachings
of the creeds
and made explicit referencesto them in their writings.
(05:49):
So we still uphold the teachings
of the Apostle's Creedand the Nicene Creed.
But yeah,we don't tend to reference them as much,
which I think might be where you're going,like they did reference them.
Fortunately, I did learn the Apostle'sCreed in school as a school assignment.
But yeah, yeah, notall of us have experienced that.
Well and I think
(06:11):
Christina Moss in that
article does raise a point that I wouldresonate from my own experience of
we're pretty quick to point out,oh, yeah, as Anabaptists, we believe in,
you know, radical and blove and separation from the world and two
kingdoms and, you know,saying all those things which are true.
But not going to say the Apostles Creed
or some of those fundamentals ofthis is Orthodox Christianity.
(06:36):
Not that we don't believe those things.
It's just it isn't really partof the experience for many of our people.
And when I say that, I'm,
I'm saying to American Mennonites,because that's my own experience.
I'm, you know, maybe it's different
in other places,but I never really thought about that
until I started looking into thisa little more, you know, a few years ago
and was just like, That this is somethingI'm not even aware of.
(06:57):
You know, and so here we are.
And maybe that's be worth digging intowith some people of, like. Why?
Why is that?
But anyway,I think you were going to take us down
the history lane,a little bit of the early Anabaptists
and what they would have saidabout the creeds. Yeah.
A little bit with a few quotes.
Starting with the complete writingsabout assignments.
(07:19):
You’re going to read the complete writingsof Menno Simons to us one, one piece.
Menno Simons is
responding to somebody named.
I wish I knew German.
It looks to me like Julius Faber, althoughit feels wrong to say it that way.
Anyways, he'sresponding to this individual,
(07:41):
and he says, therefore, observe thatwhich I write, and let it be unto you.
A certain rule, namely,where the spirit, word,
sacraments,and life of Christ are found there.
The Nicene article is pertinent.
I believe in one holy Christian church,the communion of saints, etc.
but where the spirit, word, sacraments,and life of Christ are not found, but
(08:05):
where the spirit doctrines, sacraments,and life of Antichrist are found there.
The church of Antichrist is,and not the Church of Christ.
Although we might boast a thousand times,
I believe in oneHoly Christian church, etc.,
for withoutor against the Spirit of Christ, His word,
sacraments, and life, there canin all eternity be no Christian church.
(08:28):
Twist the matter as you please.
The word stands immutable.
Whosoever transgresses and abideth not inthe doctrine of Christ hath not God.
Obviously he was aware of the creed.
He was affirming the Creed.
In this instance,the Nicene Creed, not the Apostle's Creed.
(08:49):
It's interesting though,because he's saying.
Even if you don't, if you have this, thisthen the creed is pertinent.
But if you don't you can say thisa thousand times and it doesn't matter.
Which is interestingbecause isn't that a lot of the things
the early Anabaptists would haveemphasized is you have to live it.
(09:11):
You have to walk this thing out.
Even if you affirm this creed and you'renot living, your life doesn't align.
And how your your churchesaren't aligning with it doesn't matter.
You can say it a thousand times.
It doesn't doesn't apply.
I don't know if that's part of the storythere.
That emphasis on how we live.
Seems pretty significant to me.
Yeah. That does seem to be a part of it.
(09:32):
So we go on to my next primary source.
Yeah. Go ahead. Okay.
Next primary source is from Anabaptism
in Outline
edited by
Walter Clauson,currently published by Plow.
Though many editions in circulation
are published by another publisher, so.
(09:55):
On page 25 of Anabaptism in Outline.
Balthasar Hubmaier, Elaborates
on the Apostles Creedand kind of paraphrases it.
Makes it more personal to his experience.
I'm not going to read the whole thing,
but I'll read enough to give you a feelfor how he treats it.
(10:16):
I believe also in Jesus Christ,your only son, our Lord.
I believe that he has made atonementto you, my father, for the fall,
that he has made peacebetween you and me, who am a poor sinner.
Skipping out to the next paragraph.
Also, I believe and confess,
my Lord Jesus Christ, that you wereconceived through the Holy Spirit
(10:39):
without human need and born of Mary,pure and eternally chaste Virgin.
Another paragraph down.
I believe and confess that you sufferedunder the judge, Pontius Pilate,
that you were crucified, dead, and buried.
All this you did on account of my sins,in order that you might save me
from eternal suffering,torment, and death.
So it's not just a direct,literal quotation recitation of the Creed,
(11:01):
but he takes each pointand elaborates on it,
which is fascinating,that that personalization, turning it
into a direct prayer.
Do you know what year he is writing this.
1526 through 27 is what it saysat the top of the page
within the first yearor two of the Anabaptist movement starting
appears to be, yes.
(11:23):
And the
third, the third primary sourcethat I would like to mention
that unfortunately we don't have here.
Do we have an Ausbund nearby.
We don't have one nearby.
So I can't quote it exactly.
But for those who have it availablelook at the second psalm,
the second song in it.
It is a
(11:45):
I believe, it’s the Apostle's Creedset to music is it word for word
or it has been somewhat modifiedfor their purposes?
I believe it's been modified.
I can't say exactly how,since I don't have it in front of me.
How about that?I that's that's interesting.
Do you know what yearthat would have been done?
I mean, that's very early Anabaptist.
I don’t remember. Yeah.
(12:06):
And maybe somebody listening to this,would also know
is that still used like the Ausbund isstill used by all these churches.
Is that particular song commonly used?
Yeah.
Somebody should let us know.
That would. Yeah.
That would be really interestingto know. So,
so the early Anabaptistclearly had an awareness of these creeds.
(12:28):
I mean yeah,that's pretty straightforward.
Any thought on why we don'ttalk about them that much anymore?
And when I say that,I mean, at least from my own experience
in the American Mennonite scene.
Any any thought on what's happening there?
I could only conjecture.
(12:50):
I can't do much more than conjectureeither.
I think it's a little widerthan Mennonites, though.
I think it's been
low church Protestantism as well.
I don't think it'sbeen uniquely Mennonites
that have paid less attentionto them recently.
(13:11):
In recent years,the Southern Baptist Convention
was making the creedsa matter of discussion.
Interesting.
I wonder what triggered that.
And I say recently
I'm thinking,you know, the last 50 to 100 years,
I think there's amaybe an uptick in interest,
low church becoming more interestedin creedal formulations,
(13:34):
along with other things that low both,you know, low church
Protestants and low church Anabaptistsbecoming more interested in
other thingsthat come from the early centuries
of Christianity,like liturgical calendars and
the seasons of the church year,and things like that.
But yeah,why don't we use the Apostle's Creed?
(13:54):
I don't know,
In, in some church contextit would be used on a very routine
basis within the serviceI assume, and other interactions.
Like I don't have much familiaritywith that.
Do you have input there.
And I believe it would beroutine in a lot of churches
(14:15):
as a structured part of what we do.
On a Sunday morning.
But those are churchesthat are very different from,
from the experiences I've had.
Yeah.
Most of my experience with liturgicalchurches is from the Episcopal Church.
And I do believe that it's a somewhatroutine part of their liturgy.
(14:35):
Yeah I think,I think there could be a lot of value in
in raising the awareness level of this
or bringing it into churchsetting somehow.
I'm not quitesure what that would look like.
I feel like I need to get my headaround it a bit more.
But I found it valuable in my own life.
You know, the Apostle's Creedand the Nicene Creed
and just at leasthaving a good awareness of it
(14:57):
and the backgroundof where it comes from it’s
been you know, with the churchfor a very long time, you know,
and I think there's there's valuein these declarations of faith.
Yeah.
And I mean you can recite it and you can,
you know, no longer think about whatyou're reciting and so on.
But I do have to think about how,
you know,
just regular attentionto the Apostle's Creed,
(15:21):
could help with some things
we've struggled with.
Yes. I think Mennonites have affirmedthe Apostle's Creed.
But there's things we tend to get
fuzzyon, and church tends to get fuzzy on.
So one of the items of the creed, like,
you know,I believe in the resurrection of the body.
(15:42):
Okay, that's pretty fundamentalto Christianity. But.
You know, it has not been uncommonto talk about resurrection or,
you know, the future life in waysthat you almost don't
need to raise the body because, you know,you go to heaven when you die.
And that's the Christian hope,
you know, would we have struggled lesswith that, downplaying the resurrection
(16:05):
if, you know, we were routinely saying,
I believe in the resurrection of the body,like this is fundamental,
or. the centrality of
the kingdom of God in the gospel.
Well, right there in the Creed, like,you know,
Jesus ascended and is seatedat the right hand of the father, like
(16:26):
just tremendously important.
And, you know, just
hammering that in a more regularuse of a creed, I think would be helpful
because it is one of those thingsthat tends to get missed.
Or, tends to be under
emphasized, underappreciated,I should say.
Yeah.
(16:46):
Jaran is there more you had on the Creedthat you'd like to add.
No, I don't believe so,
Other than just the fact that
it's important for how we see ourselves,
how we see ourselves in relation to
(17:07):
the church
and history and so on.
A couple angles.
One, we can get fixated in our moment.
You know, we read the New Testament,and then there's us,
and we can miss
some of the connections in betweensomething like the Apostles Creed.
You know, it's developedvery early in the church.
Nicene Creed, not much later.
(17:29):
And was where a lot of things were,
you know, the Nicene Creed iswhat really put a stake in the ground
in terms of a orthodoxunderstanding of the Trinity.
Didn't solve all the
all the questions or problems, but,you know,
one God, three persons.
(17:50):
The stake was really put there.
And, you know, it's really importantjust to say yes.
Like,we are in continuity with the church.
And probably especially
okay.
So especially as Anabaptists,
(18:10):
important to put that stake in.
And I'm just thinking back,
the Reformation 500 years ago. So,
you know, for a lot of Protestants,
they were making a significant break,
with the Catholic Church,while also, of course,
(18:30):
wanting to affirm, no, you know,we're correcting things that went wrong.
We're not cutting ourselves offfrom the church.
We're reforming things.
Anabaptists in many ways took.
Took some changes further,
than the official Protestant Reformation.
(18:52):
You know, including things like
believer's baptism
and really repudiating thethe infant baptism model and so on.
This, you know, this big break.
But it could be
could be very easyfor us to overemphasize the break
and, you know, actlike we're cut off or whatever.
(19:13):
And I think.
You know,
some use of the creedsand similar things to say,
look, now, this is fundamental.
This is Christian like, we're not
we're not the
29th chapter of acts here. Like
there's a lot more to the story.
And we arewe're not breaking away like, yes,
(19:35):
we think we had some important thingsto correct
that had developed over the centuries.
But we confess one holyCatholic church and continuity over,
over the centuriesand so on Dig into the the one holy
Catholic Church in the Apostle's Creed,that terminology, it's used.
Because now people are going to be like,oh, the Roman Catholic Church.
(19:57):
That's not what it's referring to there.
Do you want to unpack that just a bit
to make sure that's not confusingfor people to be like,
wait a minute,I thought y'all were Anabaptists.
And what's this with the Catholic?
Yeah.Explain that. So the term Catholic is
much older.
Obviously you got the Apostles Creed,
you know, the whole church,the universal church.
(20:21):
You know, it did become.
It did become a term
that was used kind of in definitionwith, again, some of the struggles
with heresy, things that neededto be defined, with some schisms.
You know,I can't say it was used perfectly.
But that sense of,
(20:43):
you know, one church I think goes alongwith the communion of the saints,
there is a connectionamong Christ's people.
Christ has one body and.
Yeah.
I think that is a profoundly importantterm to retain.
And now it's not a monopoly of the RomanCatholic Church or
(21:05):
or the Pope or whatever.
It's a theological affirmation.
And I
think it's actually it's onethat's good for.
it's I think a really good reminder,
maybe particularly for our Anabaptistor other
low church tendencies,
(21:25):
we tend to be very congregationalabout church,
you know, churcheswhere believers are gathered together
and you have a church,a church here, a church there.
And I agree with that.
The vast majority of the time that theterm church is used in the new Testament,
it's like talking about specific churches,specific gatherings, like, you know,
(21:46):
there's one in the city, one in that city,there's one in this person's house,
I guess, talking about, you know, concretegathering, not some not,
you know, a broad universal thing.
But at the same time, there is the real thread there that it's one church and that,
you know, all these little churches aren'tjust like
independent things.
(22:07):
And I'm not talkingabout church government structure there.
I'm talking about just,you know, realizing,
you know, Jesus church is bigger
than it's exemplified in particular bodiesin particular gatherings.
It is bigger, it is global.
It is across time and place.
I think,
(22:29):
and, you know, this ismaybe taking it a little bit further, but
there's the one song we singsometimes speaks about the church in earth
and heaven.
And I think, you know, languageof the communion of saints
and the one holy Catholic Churchcan help us to appreciate
that as well.
Yeah, that's
(22:50):
some pretty interesting contextthat you all have added here.
And I think it's important piecesto keep in mind.
I guess I want to also sayto the person who left the comment,
we appreciate thatwe we enjoy the engagement
and feedback that we get from people,and we encourage that in the future.
People have more input or something.
Perhaps on this topic that they want toadd, some, some thoughts to.
(23:12):
And also thanks to Jaranfor compiling these, different sources.
Yes.
As we wrap this episode to a close,I think one thing we could
agree on iswe would encourage people after this.
Go look up the Nicene Creed,go read the Apostle's Creed.
And make yourself familiar with it.
I think that'd be a good thingpeople could do.
And is.
(23:32):
Yeah.
Is there anything else you'd like to add?
For the listeners as we bring itto a close that's a great starting point.
Yeah, yeah. Okay. Well,
yeah, I think I think we'll end it therethen.
Thanks for listening to this episode.
If you found this interesting,
you might want to check outthis other episode we did with Kyle
Stoltzfusand Stephen Russell on The great tradition
(23:52):
and how that applies to usas Christians today.
And you can find thatlinked in the description down below.
Thanks again for listening,and we'll catch you in the next episode.
Yes. I think Mennonites have affirmedthe Apostle's Creed.
But there's things we tend to get
fuzzyon, and church tends to get fuzzy on.
So one of the items of the creed, like,
you know,I believe in the resurrection of the body.
Okay, that's pretty fundamentalto Christianity. But.
You know, it has not been uncommonto talk about resurrection or,
(00:23):
you know, the future life in waysthat you almost don't
need to raise the body because, you know,you go to heaven when you die.
And that's the Christian hope,
you know, would we have struggled lesswith that, downplaying the resurrection
if, you know, we were routinely saying,I believe in the resurrection of the body,
like this is fundamental,
(00:48):
So on this podcast,
we get a fair amount of interactionfrom the audience,
people sending us emails,leaving comments and things like that.
And there is one questionthat actually you and I did on a partners
episode,which people can go to the website
to see the partner program,but we're going to dive into that a bit.
Here on the main channeland a few other things as well,
(01:10):
because feel it has a lot of relevancefor our audience.
And someone named Travisleft us this comment.
I'll just read thisand then, you can respond says,
which of the early churchcreeds can Anabaptists affirm?
And that got us thinkinga bit of the Anabaptists and the creeds,
and how, at least in my own experience,I just haven't thought about it that much.
(01:32):
So you did a little bit of digging onthat, and, I'd be.
Yeah.
Interested in what you have to sharewith us here, Jaran?
Yeah.
This question brings to mind, the episode that we did with David Bercot.
It was actually a lecturethat he presented where he spoke
about the Trinity.
I think it's a lecturethat we can recommend to our audience
sometime in the course of that episode,he asked the audience of,
(01:55):
presumably Mennonites, how many people
he asked how many are familiarwith the Apostle's Creed.
And you were there, I believe I wasn't.
Did you see how many hands went up?
It wasn't many.
I wish I could remember percentages.
It was about 40 people there,and they were all Mennonites.
Yeah, And that was the Apostle's Creedor the Nicene Creed
(02:18):
or both?
Did go downeven lower with the Nicene Creed.
I think he asked both.
We might have to
I might have to dig up some old footageand see if I can find, like,
how many peopleactually raise their hands.
But it was not many, No.
Well, whichever the case,I think that it's sad and too bad
that we are notmore cognizant of the creeds
(02:39):
because they matter and we do affirm them.
We are Orthodox Christians.
There's a blog post that I would.
Oh, we should read the Creed first,shouldn't we?
I was going to say yes.
So, This is interesting that you mentionedthis, that it feels like there
isn't that much familiarity.
That would be in my ownpersonal experience.
(02:59):
I honestly, I wasn't familiar
with the Apostle's Creedand the Nicene Creed,
a lot of these thingsuntil I went looking for it.
And it's talkingto different people in my life,
and they're like, Apostle's Creed,I don't know.
I've never, never read that. Like,I don't I don't know what that even is.
And, so yeah, why don't we actually,just before we launch too deep,
just read this.
The Apostle's Creed,I have the Apostle's Creed in front of me.
(03:20):
It is. It is brief.
I believe in
God, the Father Almighty,creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ,his only son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spiritand born of the Virgin Mary.
He suffered under Pontius Pilate,was crucified, died, and was buried.
(03:40):
He descended to hell.
The third day he rose again from the dead.
He ascended to heaven and is seated at theright hand of God the Father Almighty.
From there he will come to judgethe living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,the holy Catholic Church,
the communion of saints,the forgiveness of sins,
(04:01):
the resurrection of the body,and the life everlasting.
Amen.
That is the Apostle's Creed.
And we affirm it.
There is a blog post written by Christina
Moss on anabaptisthistorians.org.
(04:23):
She posted this in 2020.
I think she summarizes things quite well.
In the four years since I first beganattending a Mennonite church.
I have sometimes heard Anabaptistreferred to as non creedal Christians.
It is certainly truethat when asked to describe what it means
to be Anabaptist, most Anabaptistwill understandably give an answer
(04:43):
that prioritizes doctrines and practicesthat are not common
to the majority of Christian churches,particularly pacifism or creedo baptism.
Similarly, when drawing doctrinalboundaries around their churches,
something they were as ready to doas the state churches,
though not at the point of the sword.
Anabaptists have tended to appealto Scripture directly since it,
(05:07):
since its authority superseded any creeds
and confessions, however valuable.
Nevertheless, insofaras the Apostle’s and Nicene Creeds
can be said to summarize the essentialsof the Christian faith.
The earliest Anabaptists upheld theseteachings, with only a few exceptions.
(05:28):
What she says resonates with my experience
about how Anabaptiststend to talk about things.
But I do believe that
she is right that the earliest,
the earliest Anabaptistsupheld the teachings
of the creeds
and made explicit referencesto them in their writings.
(05:49):
So we still uphold the teachings
of the Apostle's Creedand the Nicene Creed.
But yeah,we don't tend to reference them as much,
which I think might be where you're going,like they did reference them.
Fortunately, I did learn the Apostle'sCreed in school as a school assignment.
But yeah, yeah, notall of us have experienced that.
Well and I think
(06:11):
Christina Moss in that
article does raise a point that I wouldresonate from my own experience of
we're pretty quick to point out,oh, yeah, as Anabaptists, we believe in,
you know, radical and blove and separation from the world and two
kingdoms and, you know,saying all those things which are true.
But not going to say the Apostles Creed
or some of those fundamentals ofthis is Orthodox Christianity.
(06:36):
Not that we don't believe those things.
It's just it isn't really partof the experience for many of our people.
And when I say that, I'm,
I'm saying to American Mennonites,because that's my own experience.
I'm, you know, maybe it's different
in other places,but I never really thought about that
until I started looking into thisa little more, you know, a few years ago
and was just like, That this is somethingI'm not even aware of.
(06:57):
You know, and so here we are.
And maybe that's be worth digging intowith some people of, like. Why?
Why is that?
But anyway,I think you were going to take us down
the history lane,a little bit of the early Anabaptists
and what they would have saidabout the creeds. Yeah.
A little bit with a few quotes.
Starting with the complete writingsabout assignments.
(07:19):
You’re going to read the complete writingsof Menno Simons to us one, one piece.
Menno Simons is
responding to somebody named.
I wish I knew German.
It looks to me like Julius Faber, althoughit feels wrong to say it that way.
Anyways, he'sresponding to this individual,
(07:41):
and he says, therefore, observe thatwhich I write, and let it be unto you.
A certain rule, namely,where the spirit, word,
sacraments,and life of Christ are found there.
The Nicene article is pertinent.
I believe in one holy Christian church,the communion of saints, etc.
but where the spirit, word, sacraments,and life of Christ are not found, but
(08:05):
where the spirit doctrines, sacraments,and life of Antichrist are found there.
The church of Antichrist is,and not the Church of Christ.
Although we might boast a thousand times,
I believe in oneHoly Christian church, etc.,
for withoutor against the Spirit of Christ, His word,
sacraments, and life, there canin all eternity be no Christian church.
(08:28):
Twist the matter as you please.
The word stands immutable.
Whosoever transgresses and abideth not inthe doctrine of Christ hath not God.
Obviously he was aware of the creed.
He was affirming the Creed.
In this instance,the Nicene Creed, not the Apostle's Creed.
(08:49):
It's interesting though,because he's saying.
Even if you don't, if you have this, thisthen the creed is pertinent.
But if you don't you can say thisa thousand times and it doesn't matter.
Which is interestingbecause isn't that a lot of the things
the early Anabaptists would haveemphasized is you have to live it.
(09:11):
You have to walk this thing out.
Even if you affirm this creed and you'renot living, your life doesn't align.
And how your your churchesaren't aligning with it doesn't matter.
You can say it a thousand times.
It doesn't doesn't apply.
I don't know if that's part of the storythere.
That emphasis on how we live.
Seems pretty significant to me.
Yeah. That does seem to be a part of it.
(09:32):
So we go on to my next primary source.
Yeah. Go ahead. Okay.
Next primary source is from Anabaptism
in Outline
edited by
Walter Clauson,currently published by Plow.
Though many editions in circulation
are published by another publisher, so.
(09:55):
On page 25 of Anabaptism in Outline.
Balthasar Hubmaier, Elaborates
on the Apostles Creedand kind of paraphrases it.
Makes it more personal to his experience.
I'm not going to read the whole thing,
but I'll read enough to give you a feelfor how he treats it.
(10:16):
I believe also in Jesus Christ,your only son, our Lord.
I believe that he has made atonementto you, my father, for the fall,
that he has made peacebetween you and me, who am a poor sinner.
Skipping out to the next paragraph.
Also, I believe and confess,
my Lord Jesus Christ, that you wereconceived through the Holy Spirit
(10:39):
without human need and born of Mary,pure and eternally chaste Virgin.
Another paragraph down.
I believe and confess that you sufferedunder the judge, Pontius Pilate,
that you were crucified, dead, and buried.
All this you did on account of my sins,in order that you might save me
from eternal suffering,torment, and death.
So it's not just a direct,literal quotation recitation of the Creed,
(11:01):
but he takes each pointand elaborates on it,
which is fascinating,that that personalization, turning it
into a direct prayer.
Do you know what year he is writing this.
1526 through 27 is what it saysat the top of the page
within the first yearor two of the Anabaptist movement starting
appears to be, yes.
(11:23):
And the
third, the third primary sourcethat I would like to mention
that unfortunately we don't have here.
Do we have an Ausbund nearby.
We don't have one nearby.
So I can't quote it exactly.
But for those who have it availablelook at the second psalm,
the second song in it.
It is a
(11:45):
I believe, it’s the Apostle's Creedset to music is it word for word
or it has been somewhat modifiedfor their purposes?
I believe it's been modified.
I can't say exactly how,since I don't have it in front of me.
How about that?I that's that's interesting.
Do you know what yearthat would have been done?
I mean, that's very early Anabaptist.
I don’t remember. Yeah.
(12:06):
And maybe somebody listening to this,would also know
is that still used like the Ausbund isstill used by all these churches.
Is that particular song commonly used?
Yeah.
Somebody should let us know.
That would. Yeah.
That would be really interestingto know. So,
so the early Anabaptistclearly had an awareness of these creeds.
(12:28):
I mean yeah,that's pretty straightforward.
Any thought on why we don'ttalk about them that much anymore?
And when I say that,I mean, at least from my own experience
in the American Mennonite scene.
Any any thought on what's happening there?
I could only conjecture.
(12:50):
I can't do much more than conjectureeither.
I think it's a little widerthan Mennonites, though.
I think it's been
low church Protestantism as well.
I don't think it'sbeen uniquely Mennonites
that have paid less attentionto them recently.
(13:11):
In recent years,the Southern Baptist Convention
was making the creedsa matter of discussion.
Interesting.
I wonder what triggered that.
And I say recently
I'm thinking,you know, the last 50 to 100 years,
I think there's amaybe an uptick in interest,
low church becoming more interestedin creedal formulations,
(13:34):
along with other things that low both,you know, low church
Protestants and low church Anabaptistsbecoming more interested in
other thingsthat come from the early centuries
of Christianity,like liturgical calendars and
the seasons of the church year,and things like that.
But yeah,why don't we use the Apostle's Creed?
(13:54):
I don't know,
In, in some church contextit would be used on a very routine
basis within the serviceI assume, and other interactions.
Like I don't have much familiaritywith that.
Do you have input there.
And I believe it would beroutine in a lot of churches
(14:15):
as a structured part of what we do.
On a Sunday morning.
But those are churchesthat are very different from,
from the experiences I've had.
Yeah.
Most of my experience with liturgicalchurches is from the Episcopal Church.
And I do believe that it's a somewhatroutine part of their liturgy.
(14:35):
Yeah I think,I think there could be a lot of value in
in raising the awareness level of this
or bringing it into churchsetting somehow.
I'm not quitesure what that would look like.
I feel like I need to get my headaround it a bit more.
But I found it valuable in my own life.
You know, the Apostle's Creedand the Nicene Creed
and just at leasthaving a good awareness of it
(14:57):
and the backgroundof where it comes from it’s
been you know, with the churchfor a very long time, you know,
and I think there's there's valuein these declarations of faith.
Yeah.
And I mean you can recite it and you can,
you know, no longer think about whatyou're reciting and so on.
But I do have to think about how,
you know,
just regular attentionto the Apostle's Creed,
(15:21):
could help with some things
we've struggled with.
Yes. I think Mennonites have affirmedthe Apostle's Creed.
But there's things we tend to get
fuzzyon, and church tends to get fuzzy on.
So one of the items of the creed, like,
you know,I believe in the resurrection of the body.
(15:42):
Okay, that's pretty fundamentalto Christianity. But.
You know, it has not been uncommonto talk about resurrection or,
you know, the future life in waysthat you almost don't
need to raise the body because, you know,you go to heaven when you die.
And that's the Christian hope,
you know, would we have struggled lesswith that, downplaying the resurrection
(16:05):
if, you know, we were routinely saying,
I believe in the resurrection of the body,like this is fundamental,
or. the centrality of
the kingdom of God in the gospel.
Well, right there in the Creed, like,you know,
Jesus ascended and is seatedat the right hand of the father, like
(16:26):
just tremendously important.
And, you know, just
hammering that in a more regularuse of a creed, I think would be helpful
because it is one of those thingsthat tends to get missed.
Or, tends to be under
emphasized, underappreciated,I should say.
Yeah.
(16:46):
Jaran is there more you had on the Creedthat you'd like to add.
No, I don't believe so,
Other than just the fact that
it's important for how we see ourselves,
how we see ourselves in relation to
(17:07):
the church
and history and so on.
A couple angles.
One, we can get fixated in our moment.
You know, we read the New Testament,and then there's us,
and we can miss
some of the connections in betweensomething like the Apostles Creed.
You know, it's developedvery early in the church.
Nicene Creed, not much later.
(17:29):
And was where a lot of things were,
you know, the Nicene Creed iswhat really put a stake in the ground
in terms of a orthodoxunderstanding of the Trinity.
Didn't solve all the
all the questions or problems, but,you know,
one God, three persons.
(17:50):
The stake was really put there.
And, you know, it's really importantjust to say yes.
Like,we are in continuity with the church.
And probably especially
okay.
So especially as Anabaptists,
(18:10):
important to put that stake in.
And I'm just thinking back,
the Reformation 500 years ago. So,
you know, for a lot of Protestants,
they were making a significant break,
with the Catholic Church,while also, of course,
(18:30):
wanting to affirm, no, you know,we're correcting things that went wrong.
We're not cutting ourselves offfrom the church.
We're reforming things.
Anabaptists in many ways took.
Took some changes further,
than the official Protestant Reformation.
(18:52):
You know, including things like
believer's baptism
and really repudiating thethe infant baptism model and so on.
This, you know, this big break.
But it could be
could be very easyfor us to overemphasize the break
and, you know, actlike we're cut off or whatever.
(19:13):
And I think.
You know,
some use of the creedsand similar things to say,
look, now, this is fundamental.
This is Christian like, we're not
we're not the
29th chapter of acts here. Like
there's a lot more to the story.
And we arewe're not breaking away like, yes,
(19:35):
we think we had some important thingsto correct
that had developed over the centuries.
But we confess one holyCatholic church and continuity over,
over the centuriesand so on Dig into the the one holy
Catholic Church in the Apostle's Creed,that terminology, it's used.
Because now people are going to be like,oh, the Roman Catholic Church.
(19:57):
That's not what it's referring to there.
Do you want to unpack that just a bit
to make sure that's not confusingfor people to be like,
wait a minute,I thought y'all were Anabaptists.
And what's this with the Catholic?
Yeah.Explain that. So the term Catholic is
much older.
Obviously you got the Apostles Creed,
you know, the whole church,the universal church.
(20:21):
You know, it did become.
It did become a term
that was used kind of in definitionwith, again, some of the struggles
with heresy, things that neededto be defined, with some schisms.
You know,I can't say it was used perfectly.
But that sense of,
(20:43):
you know, one church I think goes alongwith the communion of the saints,
there is a connectionamong Christ's people.
Christ has one body and.
Yeah.
I think that is a profoundly importantterm to retain.
And now it's not a monopoly of the RomanCatholic Church or
(21:05):
or the Pope or whatever.
It's a theological affirmation.
And I
think it's actually it's onethat's good for.
it's I think a really good reminder,
maybe particularly for our Anabaptistor other
low church tendencies,
(21:25):
we tend to be very congregationalabout church,
you know, churcheswhere believers are gathered together
and you have a church,a church here, a church there.
And I agree with that.
The vast majority of the time that theterm church is used in the new Testament,
it's like talking about specific churches,specific gatherings, like, you know,
(21:46):
there's one in the city, one in that city,there's one in this person's house,
I guess, talking about, you know, concretegathering, not some not,
you know, a broad universal thing.
But at the same time, there is the real thread there that it's one church and that,
you know, all these little churches aren'tjust like
independent things.
(22:07):
And I'm not talkingabout church government structure there.
I'm talking about just,you know, realizing,
you know, Jesus church is bigger
than it's exemplified in particular bodiesin particular gatherings.
It is bigger, it is global.
It is across time and place.
I think,
(22:29):
and, you know, this ismaybe taking it a little bit further, but
there's the one song we singsometimes speaks about the church in earth
and heaven.
And I think, you know, languageof the communion of saints
and the one holy Catholic Churchcan help us to appreciate
that as well.
Yeah, that's
(22:50):
some pretty interesting contextthat you all have added here.
And I think it's important piecesto keep in mind.
I guess I want to also sayto the person who left the comment,
we appreciate thatwe we enjoy the engagement
and feedback that we get from people,and we encourage that in the future.
People have more input or something.
Perhaps on this topic that they want toadd, some, some thoughts to.
(23:12):
And also thanks to Jaranfor compiling these, different sources.
Yes.
As we wrap this episode to a close,I think one thing we could
agree on iswe would encourage people after this.
Go look up the Nicene Creed,go read the Apostle's Creed.
And make yourself familiar with it.
I think that'd be a good thingpeople could do.
And is.
(23:32):
Yeah.
Is there anything else you'd like to add?
For the listeners as we bring itto a close that's a great starting point.
Yeah, yeah. Okay. Well,
yeah, I think I think we'll end it therethen.
Thanks for listening to this episode.
If you found this interesting,
you might want to check outthis other episode we did with Kyle
Stoltzfusand Stephen Russell on The great tradition
(23:52):
and how that applies to usas Christians today.
And you can find thatlinked in the description down below.
Thanks again for listening,and we'll catch you in the next episode.
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