March 27, 2025 • 33 mins
Trauma is complicated, with many different opinions and stigmas surrounding it. But what are basics all of us should know about trauma, to help us be more caring and gracious towards those that have experienced it? Michael Hochstetler is a counseling that speaks from his experience of helping those who have experienced trauma.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
One of the things I think is so importantis it really is okay
to just bewhatever your role is, to just be that.
And so if you're a friend of someonewho has a trauma history,
you don't have to be their counselor.
You don't have to be their pastor.
You don't have to be their life coach.
It's okay to just be their friend.
(00:25):
This is great.
I'm really glad you could make this work,Michael.
I I'm really glad it's been a minute.
So, we interviewed you.
Wow.
It's been probably four yearsfive years ago, at least.
I think it was during the height of Covidor something.
Oh, my. Okay,so which was, quite the time.
Yeah.
So, Michael, you work as a counselor,and you do,
(00:48):
some teaching and things on a varietyof topics, but one specifically,
I want to dive in today,and this is, you know, a more heavy and,
maybe not the typical thing
we cover on this podcast,but that is the topic of trauma.
And, to be honest,I don't know much about it.
I you know, you hear things,you bump into some things,
(01:13):
and I think it's pretty easy to buildin, in the mind of, like, I kind of think
it's like this, and I'm, I'm guessing thatI probably don't have that quite right.
So I'd love to hear from you
on just some basics and what we can learnand how that applies
to us, to the audience,anybody who listens to this.
(01:35):
So I guess just to start it off,let's let's start with the basics.
And what is trauma?
there's a lot of waysyou can define trauma.
I think about emotional wounding.
So if you think about the differencebetween pain and wounding.
So in terms of the physical bodywe experience pain all the time.
That isn't necessarily wounding a wound
(01:58):
not only hurtsbut is a lasting source of hurt
that limits our ability to functionin some way.
So I have a laceration on my arm.
It's harder to use my arm.
It limits what I can do with it,and it continues to hurt.
So in some ways, trauma is that way.
It's not simply pain
that a person has experienced,but it's an ongoing source of pain.
(02:21):
So overwhelming.
Distressing.
It's in some cases, terrifying eventsthat occur to people.
They continue to be a sourceof wounding, ongoing.
And is that one of the challengeswhen it comes to things like trauma.
Is someone looking on from the outside.
Oh well that happened to youlike a long time ago.
Why is this still, an issue.
(02:42):
Yes, yes, very much so.
Or the individual themselves?
Yeah, I hear thata lot from people that I work with.
Why am I still struggling with this?
Why does it still affect me?
Yeah, I'm not really not surewhere the idea of a timetable
comes from,but for some reason we have this idea
that you should be over it
(03:03):
by a certain point.
But it's not that way.
And trauma can last for a lifetime,potentially, if there isn't healing
I guess the
the part about thisis it's pretty easy to make assumptions.
And again for something like trauma
(03:23):
it's not likeoh someone loses their arm in an accident.
It's very obvious thathey you know that happened.
You know they have this limitation.
They have one arm, with trauma.
It's not really the case, I guess.
And again, I'm not.
This is not my field. I.
I feel like I have so much to learn here.
This, I'm sure is quite complicated.
(03:44):
And, what I hear you saying is
a person can be traumatizedand we wouldn't necessarily know it,
or we might not creditthe impact of their trauma
on them because it's not something visiblelike losing an arm.
Is that kind of what you're saying?
Because you can look at that and be,Oh I can, I can easily see that.
Whereas someone may have went throughsomething horrible and
(04:05):
you can't really
tell from just looking at themnecessarily.
Yeah. Yeah. That.
So this is true on on many levels.
So one way that this is true,
the impact on a person isn'talways obvious.
Now, sometimes it isif a person engages in
some kind of destructive behaviorthat involves other people.
Obviously,not all traumatized individuals do that.
(04:27):
Or if a person's symptoms are visible,
or obvious to other people.
But a lot of people experiencetheir symptoms in private
or simply inside of themselves.
So we like to talk about the differencebetween acting in
and acting out,acting out as in more familiar language.
(04:47):
You act out the distress.
It's on the inside, through drinking
or getting into argumentsor or cutting or whatever it might be.
And again, not all traumatizedpeople do things like that.
Just but just to to define the terms.
But people also act in, which means
they work out their distress internally.
(05:11):
So that might be through worry
or through negative thoughtsabout themselves or maybe poor health.
Maybe the body absorbs the impact of it.
So what I'm saying withthat is a lot of people are traumatized
and you wouldn't know itjust to observe them.
It might just look like a quiet person.
And that's what's so sad, is
these people are really hurting very badly
(05:32):
on the inside, and people don't know it,
and they're not necessarilygoing to talk about it.
That is so hard to talk about.
And that
transitions a little bitinto another question I had too.
It seems like
there's often a stigmaaround the topic of trauma,
(05:55):
which feels like we just kind of reinforcesome of the things you were just saying.
Right.
It's easy to just,oh, we'll just ignore that or we’ll sweep
that under the rug or, so forth.
Why is that?
And then how can we find some healthierresponses to these things?
Yeah that's a really good question.
So in the context of our Anabaptist
(06:18):
communities that might be a good thingfor me to mention.
By the way, in passing,those are mostly the people I work with
is people from fairly conservativeAnabaptist communities.
So that's my context here for this issue.
So we tend to be,
in many ways, a very stoic people.
(06:38):
We often have a horror of self-pity,
of blame shifting and victimization,which goodness knows.
There's plenty of thatto go around in this world.
And and it's certainlya good thing to stay away from.
But many of our peopletend to be very sensitive to those things.
So I've heard it over and overand over from clients.
(07:00):
I don't want to be that person.
It's hard to engage the counseling processin some ways
because it means talking about your pain.
It means receiving empathy.
It means telling your story.
But many people are very hesitant
to talk about their pain.
It's one thingif it's somebody else's pain.
But if I talk about my pain,
that means I'm making a big deal about meand about my suffering.
(07:21):
I think there's just something
really deep in our culturethat we are very reluctant
to express ourselves too much.
And maybe that'stoo much of a generalization,
but I think thatthere are things in our culture
that make it difficultfor us to credit suffering too much
when it's our own suffering,but maybe even
(07:42):
when it's other people's suffering.
So there are some unique challengesthat I think we have with our subculture.
Just around struggle in general,
suffering in general.
Emotional struggle, mental suffering.
Sometimes we view it as weakness.
(08:04):
That's a construction that people oftenput on their pain or their trauma.
So again, the issue of how long it takesto get over it if if it takes me,
if 20 years later, I'm still impactedby, let's say, sexual abuse
or that means that I'm weak, for example.
So I think we really ought
to be reflectiveabout our beliefs about suffering,
(08:27):
our beliefs about struggle,our beliefs about emotions.
Yeah.
I think one of the things that
bothers me a bit is people
that may have went throughsome of these experiences.
There's that tape running in the head of
oh it's, it'sthis shouldn't be a big deal.
(08:50):
I should get over this. It'sno big, you know.
And so then maybe they're less likely to,get help or something.
Again, I'm speaking generalizationsbecause I don't have the experience here.
And maybe this.
I guess I should saythis more like a question.
But then maybe they have tried to reachout, you know, and they get shut down.
Or again, back to that stigma thing.
(09:11):
It was like,come on, that happened to you,
you know, like eight years agoor whatever.
And like, you know,you should be past that by now.
Yeah.
I've heard comments like that made,you know, multiple times towards
someone who maybe went through somethingthat was difficult and they're like, what?
What? That was like years ago.What's what's the big deal, you know?
And it's again,coming back to that stigma.
I'm not really sure if that's evenreally a question or an observation.
(09:33):
I'd be curious how you would,you know, if you have a response to that?
Yeah.
I mean, we certainly hear lots of storieslike that.
Here's a common response.
And I think it comes from a good place,a very well-intentioned place.
But many times we try to be encouraging
by pointing out the positive.
You know, this comesup in the context of loss, for example.
(09:55):
Well,you still have three other children or
or she's in heaven or whatever.
And man, I mean, God bless peoplefor trying to be encouraging, right?
I mean, you can you can really
I think we need to credit people'sheart and people's intentions.
But many timesour attempts to be encouraging or positive
just have the impact ofof invalidating people's feelings.
(10:19):
One of the things I just thinkis so helpful
to appreciateis that yes, people need to be encouraged.
They need to be lifted up,
but they also need to be validated.
And many timespeople find it much easier to feel better
and have a positive outlook on lifewhen they're distressed.
Feelings have been validated.
(10:41):
When somebody saysI get it I get what you're going through.
Now I know you can go too far with that.
I mean we in the counseling worldtry not to just
wallow in negativity and you know,
but I think so many people
who are trying to help other,you know, friends or family or whoever,
(11:04):
their attempts to be encouraging
end up being unintentionally invalidating.
And, you know, that's not what.
That's not what any of us need, whetherwe're at a trauma history or otherwise.
So back to okay.
So we have stigmas rightthat surround this.
(11:24):
And then what are maybesome healthier ways we could respond.
I'm going to use a Just a minor example.
And I'm curiousto hear what you think of this.
I had interaction with, someone who hadwent through some very difficult things,
on the mission
field and had come back and didn'treally know what to do with that.
And, yeah, just it was a challenge.
(11:44):
And it had been years before.
And then that person started workingwith a totally separate group of people
that had also done some mission workthat was very similar
and went through a very similar thing.
And that was a very healing processfor that person.
And it wasn'tit wasn't like a structured thing.
It wasn't like, oh,
this is our project personthat we're going to all help, you know.
(12:05):
It wasn't that at all,but it was really neat, actually.
See that person to kind of kind of open upand start blossoming again.
Is there a power in that?
Yeah.
Like, these were these weren't even peoplethat really knew each other
that deeply is just through osmosis,I guess.
Be curious.
Yeah, some feedback on that.
Like, I'm just kind of looking forwhat are some healthy ways
that we can engage with peoplethat that have this.
(12:27):
I love it. I love that story.
And I'm just thinkingif somebody had come along and said,
oh, you had traumatizing experienceson the mission field, let's fix you.
Let's tell you what you need to do here.
And probably it would have beena very different experience.
Yeah.
Obviously there's a placefor being intentional of course, but
(12:47):
one of the things I hear that storiesthe power of shared experience, the power
of relating to other people who have hadsimilar experiences or similar stories,
and that is so helpful for trauma,for addiction, for mental health.
Is it it's kind of this.
It can help that person feel.
(13:10):
I, I'm not the only person inthe whole world that's had this, you know.
Because I think that's the one thing.
Like, yeah.
No, you're not the only personin the world that's had that experience.
I mean, you know.
And that was definitely the senseI got from this person.
And to watch that process.
And they were like,oh, wow, I'm not the only one
(13:30):
who went through this and really struggledin this way or whatever.
And it's one thing to just know thatI mean most of us
oh I think this is generally to
we know notionallyall of these different things.
At least a lot of them,a lot of the most life giving things.
We know them.
But to have the experience of relatingto someone
who has been through the same thingor hearing their story
(13:52):
and actually have a group around youin real life that you can interact with,
right, versus knowing that those peopleare out there in some kind of sense.
I mean,maybe they're there somewhere. Yeah.
Is this something that
when we're looking at
going throughsomething that say was traumatic,
(14:13):
the healing process is
not necessarily in isolation like that?
You we keep coming backto other people in the process.
Being part of, of,
a more healthy response versussome of the stigmas where it is.
I guess what I'm trying to say is,I'm sure there's listeners
(14:34):
hearing this saying,
oh, yeah,I like I know someone who went through
that, that,that was a really that was really tough.
And I think they're struggling and they'rethinking, well, what can I do to help?
It seems like we keep coming around to
other peoplebeing involved in some way or another.
What are what are ways that peoplelistening to this like, hey, I could
(14:55):
I could be of help or I don't even knowhow to frame that because
each situation is different, Yeah.
Yeah, that's that's that's true.
So knowing your role and stayingin your lane, I think is pretty important.
So it makes so much difference.Are you a pastor?
Is it a close family memberor is it, is it,
(15:15):
a next door neighboror are you a mentor to this person?
One of the things I think is so importantis it really is okay
to just bewhatever your role is, to just be that.
And so if you're a friend of someonewho has a trauma history,
you don't have to be their counselor.
You don't have to be their pastor.
You don't have to be their life coach.
(15:38):
It's okay to just be their friend.
Even if they continue struggling, right?
I think it could be easy to feel like
me being a friend of
this person, supporting this person,being available for them.
What good is thisif they're not getting better?
And so I need to do moreand get more involved.
One of the things I think we see a lotfrom a counseling perspective is loved
(16:03):
ones or mentors who become overinvolvedin unhealthy ways. Now.
I hesitate to make too much of thatbecause we want people
to be more involved.We want more community.
We want more help and supportfor for any number of struggles.
But the wrong kind of involvementoften is counterproductive.
(16:26):
And I think what happens iswhen a friend stops being a friend
because they're anxiousabout the suffering
and they want to fix it.
It's okay to just be a friend.
It's okay to just be supportive andpoint them to other additional resources.
You know, stay in your lane.
(16:47):
That partially answers your question.
That's I think thatyeah that's really good though.
And also I'm getting a sense
from youthat you wouldn't want to treat this as.
Okay. This is,this is the project person I'm working on.
You know I'm trying to fix this or.
Yeah, whatever.
it's hard to.
(17:07):
It's hard to.
Man. I want to choose my words carefully.
It's hard to tolerate
another person's suffering.
When I say tolerate, I don't meanto be indifferent to, obviously,
but there is a sensein which we really have to come to terms
with the ongoingsuffering of people in our lives.
(17:30):
I have to be okay with the fact
that this isn't going away right away,and that's hard.
And that's where compassion is.
I mean, the literal meaning of compassionis to suffer with to share the suffering.
And many times what we want to dois get rid of the suffering.
And again that comes from a good place,that comes from, from mercy,
that comes from our desire for their good.
(17:52):
But if I can't toleratewhat you're going through,
unintentionally, that ends up againinvalidating
the other person's experience.And it's so much harder to be with them.
You can't be with a personand be connected to a person.
And if you can't toleratetheir experience, does that make sense?
It does.
(18:13):
Yeah it does.
And I feel like there's athere's that's an important piece
because it's easyto want to go down the street of.
Well okay well here's the checklist.
You know and okay
once we check these boxes boom we’re fixedand humans just aren't really that way.
Exactly.
Yeah. Yeah.
Like, that's just
it's,
(18:34):
There's a, there's a real sensein which trauma is relational.
So it relational in this sensethere's a difference
between experiencing emotional painwhen you're connected to someone
in the experience and experiencingemotional pain when you're alone.
(18:55):
And many, many,many people have been traumatized.
A root
issue I'm not going to say the root issue,but a root issue is that their traumatic
experiences happened when they were aloneor when they were not connected.
Or maybe there was someonephysically present
who was treating them aggressively,but they weren't connected.
And that lack of connection,that being in pain
(19:17):
and being alone in the experience,
in many ways, that is the trauma,in many ways that defines the trauma.
And so the healing that can comefrom being with a person
in their suffering,
not trying to fix it,
not trying to be the answer person.
In many ways, that is the healing.
(19:39):
That's powerful that
that concept of with like with someone.
I think when,when we had had a call before
before this when we were kindof talking through like hey yeah.
What do we want to doto get on the podcast?
You had mentioned something like this,and I feel like that's pretty relevant.
Well, you used the word withness,Was that it withness and you.
You'd said something like,sitting with people through through this
(20:03):
or like being therewith this sense of with people,
which is very different than saying, oh,this is a project and here's a checklist.
And we're going to fix it, you know,with one, two and three, things.
There's something beautiful about that.
You know.
And there's
this one that's a theme throughoutscripture to, Emmanuel, God with us.
(20:24):
You know, in tabernacle,God tenting with us
or dwelling down with us, etc., etc..
You can trace thisall through Scripture. Yeah.
And then that's how the book of
revelationand the whole Bible really ends with
God coming down to be with his people.
That concept of withis just really powerful and potent.
(20:46):
and knowing and experiencingGod is with us in our pain
or even in memories of our pain.
Now I do want to just quicklysay there is certainly a place for tools.
There's certainly a placefor the practical and the nitty gritty.
Everything here is not just relational.
For sure.There's a whole other side to it.
But Yeah. And I think that's
(21:08):
definitely the disclaimer to give toI mean
we are talking in pretty general terms.
Every situation is different.
Trauma is a very multifacetedvery complex
subject fraught with disclaimersor the need for disclaimers.
But with with what we were just saying.
Feels like it, transitions nicelyfor for another question to have for you.
(21:29):
So how can we be gracious and caring
for those that are suffering trauma?
So I think doing our own work
is helpful, for one thing.
So not everyone has experiencedtrauma per se, unless you define it
in the broadest sense.
But we've all suffered in some way.
We've all struggled in some way, andI think the people who do the best work,
(21:53):
the people that are best friends,the best mentors to the traumatized,
have a sense of their own pain,
their own struggle in life,and have received
compassion from others and, from the Lordknow how to bring it to the Lord.
Know how to identify and workthrough their own feelings.
I think that really helps.
(22:13):
I think that's really good stewardshipof of our own souls
and gives us more to offer other people.
I think curiosity is so important.
So it's so easy to come in with theories
and with agendas,and you need this or you need that.
And I think we just need to be curious.
I think we need to ask people,what do you need?
(22:36):
What are you struggling with?
What would be helpful for you?
What is your story?
Now again, it depends on your lane, right?
Because there are some people that,
you know, depending on your role, maybethey shouldn't be telling you their story.
That's for them to decidewho they tell their story to.
That's it's deeply personal.
But but depending on your role,you know, asking questions.
(23:00):
Being curious.
I think hearing the storiesof the traumatized is so helpful.
I think that helps usget at a visceral level
how much people have sufferedand what people go through
and and just being educated on the issue.
(23:21):
So as we look at this whole package,I guess you could say
or this topic, we've exploreddifferent avenues and things.
Let's, let's bring it down to somethingreally practical to round it out
and end this episode with, again,for those that are listening to this
real practical, what are lists,
something that the listenerscan do right now to help?
(23:42):
Is there placesthey should go to learn more?
Is there, you know, simple things,even first steps that they can take,
to start being part of that or to,to start helping those around them
that that may have suffereda traumatic experience.
So you're talkingthis is from the helpers perspective.
Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah.
(24:03):
A listener whose is hearing thisand they're like, wow, I, you know,
I want to help in some way.
What's the what's a real practical,just first step that they can take.
So againnot to sound like a broken record
but if,if this fits with your role in their life.
Help them find a trauma therapist.
(24:24):
Now that is a
difficult topic for a variety of reasons.
Yeah.
I was going to sayI agree with you for sure.
I was actually just interacting
with someone recentlyand I was encouraging them on that.
On that track.
And that person was like,oh, I just never thought of that.
That's really helpful. Yeah. Like,can you help me with that process?
So that worked out.
(24:45):
But then sometimes there's again,
there's a stigma around these thingsand people like, oh, I don't, you know.
But anyways, yeah.
so it might be helpful to back upjust a little bit and
let's talk about the field
of peoplehelping and counseling in therapy.
One of the things that could be helpfulto know is
this is an extremely diversefield, very diverse.
(25:09):
There are coaches, life coaches.
There are marriage counselors.
There are addiction counselors. There are.
And then in addition to all that,there's all these different models.
I mean, there's no endto the number of models.
It's a very bewildering alphabetsoup of of different theories.
So what am I saying?
(25:29):
That I'm saying that people helpingis about specialties,
probably more than it used to be.
Now, it's certainly truethat if you go to a therapist,
they're probably going to be preparedto deal with any number of issues.
That's that's certainly true.
But I guess what I'm saying is that traumatherapy is a fairly
specific, specialized kind of work.
(25:52):
Or it can be that can be helpful context.
Why do I say it's difficult?
So one reason is, in spiteof what I just said about specialties,
if you go onlineand look at a therapist profile,
the chances are it will say that they workwith trauma, right?
I mean, most therapists,when they list their qualifications,
(26:16):
they're saying, I work with this and this.
And, you know,
they try to make it
as inclusive as possible because they wantto get more and more clients.
So it can be challenging to find someonewho is actually a specialist in trauma.
I think,
experience going for
an experienced therapist is really good.
(26:38):
I think networking with peoplewho are somewhat familiar with
the field is really good.
Knowing someone who knows something about
counseling therapy,who can make recommendations.
Sometimes they're doctors,they can make recommendations.
But yeah, it's it's kind of.
Yeah.
Go online and Google trauma therapists.
(27:00):
It can be bewildering, you know, to, Yeah.
How do you find someone like that?
And how do you find outwhat their qualifications really are?
So I feel like that's kind of a.
I feel like that doesn't
give people a lot to work with.
(27:21):
So how do you find them?
That's an issue. But.
But there are really good people out therethat do really good work.
I think part of what I was trying to sayearlier
about the variety of, of different,people helping
fields.
Just because someone is a counseloror a therapist
(27:41):
doesn't mean theynecessarily know how to work with trauma.
They may offer really good thingsand may do really good work,
but it's not necessarily the same thing.
It is a specialized kind of work and justincredible tools have been developed.
They're amazing thingsthat have been discovered
that can be so helpful.
Yeah.
This is wow. Yeah.
(28:04):
It's a lot to think about you know.
And and it can be hard because it's like
especially if you doyou go through something traumatic.
Sometimes it's just like hardto even recognize that it happened.
I know there wasthere was something that happened to me,
a number of years ago,and at the time, it didn't even register.
But then years later, remember? Wow.
Like that actually, that that did affect
me, you know, and didn'treally realize it, like, for a while.
(28:27):
It takes a while for it to sink in or.
Yeah, it was just there, whoa, wait.
Like out of left field,you know, four years later or whatever
it was, it's like,where did that, you know?
And, and so what I'm saying it.
Yeah, it it can beit can be really hard, you know, to like,
figure all this stuff out.
So, I feel like you gave ussome really good stuff.
I feel like there's a lotto think about here with what you shared.
(28:50):
As we tie this up, or is there anythingyou'd want to end this episode with?
Somethingyou want to leave the listeners with?
So the one thing we haven't really gotteninto is from the standpoint
of the trauma sufferer,what is helpful for them.
And I think that's really a good placeto to land the plane for a bit.
(29:12):
A lot of things and
obviously it depends on the kind of traumaand the personal history.
But one thing I always encourage is
do things that are relaxing,
calming, soothing,rejuvenating, energizing.
Many people who deal withtrauma have chronic anxiety.
That's one of the
(29:34):
most difficult byproducts of trauma,
chronic anxiety or anxietythat suddenly gets triggered by,
by a trauma trigger. And,
This doesn't healthe deepest places of the heart,
obviously, but it sure can help.
So exercise is really good.
Deep breathing is really good.
(29:55):
Muscle relaxation is really good.
It's amazing the different state of minda person can get in
as their body is being relaxed.
So that's something that I thinkis really helpful.
It's helpful to know your feelings.
It's helpful to name your feelings.
Journaling can be a powerful way to dothat.
It's really helpfulto know your trauma triggers.
(30:17):
So if a person can see it comingahead of time when this happens
or this situation or this person,these things tend to trigger my trauma.
To really get into that,
we'd have to talk more about triggersand what all that means, you know?
But but I think the more people understand
their individual trauma profile,the better they tend to do.
(30:42):
So. So many people,they're experiencing trauma
or the effects of past trauma,
but they don't really understandwhat's happening to them.
And that really makes itso much harder, right?
That's got to be confusing.
Right. Or disorienting.
Yeah. Both. Yes. Right, right.
(31:02):
And so it helps so much to understandwhat's happening.
Okay. This is my trauma.
I'm being triggered.
This is a trigger that that, this is one of my triggers.
We talk about fight flight, freeze.
And fight mode. Flight mode, freeze mode.
You know, it's helpful to identifythat when it happens.
(31:24):
Oh, I'm in freeze mode right now.
I feel myself shutting down.
This is what's happening to me.
Instead of itjust being this thing that's going on.
And I don't know what it is,and I don't have a name for it.
So those things can be helpful as well.
That's a start.
Obviously, there's a lot more to sayabout the healing process.
Yeah, Yeah I I feel like that's a, a good piece
(31:47):
to make sure we leave people with,you know, here are some
you've laid out at least a couple things,you know, some some next steps
or some things for people to try.
Well, Michael, I really appreciate youtaking the time to share with us today.
This is yeah, this is a difficult topic,and I really hope from this conversation,
(32:07):
people listening to this,have more awareness, for one thing.
And also,
you know, start thinking through, okay,how can how can I be, more gracious,
more caring, loving towards those peoplewho have went through something like this?
Or if someone who has went through that.
You know, hopefullythis has encouraged them as well.
And and so forth.
(32:28):
So yeah,thank you for coming on and sharing today.
Absolutely.
Thanks for listening to this episodewith my Michael Hochstetler.
If you found this interesting,you should consider
checking out our other channel,which is a course taught by Frank
Reed about wholehearted living,serving others, and experiencing healing.
You can find links for that coursein the description down below.
(32:49):
Thanks again for listeningand we'll see you in the next episode.
One of the things I think is so importantis it really is okay
to just bewhatever your role is, to just be that.
And so if you're a friend of someonewho has a trauma history,
you don't have to be their counselor.
You don't have to be their pastor.
You don't have to be their life coach.
It's okay to just be their friend.
(00:25):
This is great.
I'm really glad you could make this work,Michael.
I I'm really glad it's been a minute.
So, we interviewed you.
Wow.
It's been probably four yearsfive years ago, at least.
I think it was during the height of Covidor something.
Oh, my. Okay,so which was, quite the time.
Yeah.
So, Michael, you work as a counselor,and you do,
(00:48):
some teaching and things on a varietyof topics, but one specifically,
I want to dive in today,and this is, you know, a more heavy and,
maybe not the typical thing
we cover on this podcast,but that is the topic of trauma.
And, to be honest,I don't know much about it.
I you know, you hear things,you bump into some things,
(01:13):
and I think it's pretty easy to buildin, in the mind of, like, I kind of think
it's like this, and I'm, I'm guessing thatI probably don't have that quite right.
So I'd love to hear from you
on just some basics and what we can learnand how that applies
to us, to the audience,anybody who listens to this.
(01:35):
So I guess just to start it off,let's let's start with the basics.
And what is trauma?
there's a lot of waysyou can define trauma.
I think about emotional wounding.
So if you think about the differencebetween pain and wounding.
So in terms of the physical bodywe experience pain all the time.
That isn't necessarily wounding a wound
(01:58):
not only hurtsbut is a lasting source of hurt
that limits our ability to functionin some way.
So I have a laceration on my arm.
It's harder to use my arm.
It limits what I can do with it,and it continues to hurt.
So in some ways, trauma is that way.
It's not simply pain
that a person has experienced,but it's an ongoing source of pain.
(02:21):
So overwhelming.
Distressing.
It's in some cases, terrifying eventsthat occur to people.
They continue to be a sourceof wounding, ongoing.
And is that one of the challengeswhen it comes to things like trauma.
Is someone looking on from the outside.
Oh well that happened to youlike a long time ago.
Why is this still, an issue.
(02:42):
Yes, yes, very much so.
Or the individual themselves?
Yeah, I hear thata lot from people that I work with.
Why am I still struggling with this?
Why does it still affect me?
Yeah, I'm not really not surewhere the idea of a timetable
comes from,but for some reason we have this idea
that you should be over it
(03:03):
by a certain point.
But it's not that way.
And trauma can last for a lifetime,potentially, if there isn't healing
I guess the
the part about thisis it's pretty easy to make assumptions.
And again for something like trauma
(03:23):
it's not likeoh someone loses their arm in an accident.
It's very obvious thathey you know that happened.
You know they have this limitation.
They have one arm, with trauma.
It's not really the case, I guess.
And again, I'm not.
This is not my field. I.
I feel like I have so much to learn here.
This, I'm sure is quite complicated.
(03:44):
And, what I hear you saying is
a person can be traumatizedand we wouldn't necessarily know it,
or we might not creditthe impact of their trauma
on them because it's not something visiblelike losing an arm.
Is that kind of what you're saying?
Because you can look at that and be,Oh I can, I can easily see that.
Whereas someone may have went throughsomething horrible and
(04:05):
you can't really
tell from just looking at themnecessarily.
Yeah. Yeah. That.
So this is true on on many levels.
So one way that this is true,
the impact on a person isn'talways obvious.
Now, sometimes it isif a person engages in
some kind of destructive behaviorthat involves other people.
Obviously,not all traumatized individuals do that.
(04:27):
Or if a person's symptoms are visible,
or obvious to other people.
But a lot of people experiencetheir symptoms in private
or simply inside of themselves.
So we like to talk about the differencebetween acting in
and acting out,acting out as in more familiar language.
(04:47):
You act out the distress.
It's on the inside, through drinking
or getting into argumentsor or cutting or whatever it might be.
And again, not all traumatizedpeople do things like that.
Just but just to to define the terms.
But people also act in, which means
they work out their distress internally.
(05:11):
So that might be through worry
or through negative thoughtsabout themselves or maybe poor health.
Maybe the body absorbs the impact of it.
So what I'm saying withthat is a lot of people are traumatized
and you wouldn't know itjust to observe them.
It might just look like a quiet person.
And that's what's so sad, is
these people are really hurting very badly
(05:32):
on the inside, and people don't know it,
and they're not necessarilygoing to talk about it.
That is so hard to talk about.
And that
transitions a little bitinto another question I had too.
It seems like
there's often a stigmaaround the topic of trauma,
(05:55):
which feels like we just kind of reinforcesome of the things you were just saying.
Right.
It's easy to just,oh, we'll just ignore that or we’ll sweep
that under the rug or, so forth.
Why is that?
And then how can we find some healthierresponses to these things?
Yeah that's a really good question.
So in the context of our Anabaptist
(06:18):
communities that might be a good thingfor me to mention.
By the way, in passing,those are mostly the people I work with
is people from fairly conservativeAnabaptist communities.
So that's my context here for this issue.
So we tend to be,
in many ways, a very stoic people.
(06:38):
We often have a horror of self-pity,
of blame shifting and victimization,which goodness knows.
There's plenty of thatto go around in this world.
And and it's certainlya good thing to stay away from.
But many of our peopletend to be very sensitive to those things.
So I've heard it over and overand over from clients.
(07:00):
I don't want to be that person.
It's hard to engage the counseling processin some ways
because it means talking about your pain.
It means receiving empathy.
It means telling your story.
But many people are very hesitant
to talk about their pain.
It's one thingif it's somebody else's pain.
But if I talk about my pain,
that means I'm making a big deal about meand about my suffering.
(07:21):
I think there's just something
really deep in our culturethat we are very reluctant
to express ourselves too much.
And maybe that'stoo much of a generalization,
but I think thatthere are things in our culture
that make it difficultfor us to credit suffering too much
when it's our own suffering,but maybe even
(07:42):
when it's other people's suffering.
So there are some unique challengesthat I think we have with our subculture.
Just around struggle in general,
suffering in general.
Emotional struggle, mental suffering.
Sometimes we view it as weakness.
(08:04):
That's a construction that people oftenput on their pain or their trauma.
So again, the issue of how long it takesto get over it if if it takes me,
if 20 years later, I'm still impactedby, let's say, sexual abuse
or that means that I'm weak, for example.
So I think we really ought
to be reflectiveabout our beliefs about suffering,
(08:27):
our beliefs about struggle,our beliefs about emotions.
Yeah.
I think one of the things that
bothers me a bit is people
that may have went throughsome of these experiences.
There's that tape running in the head of
oh it's, it'sthis shouldn't be a big deal.
(08:50):
I should get over this. It'sno big, you know.
And so then maybe they're less likely to,get help or something.
Again, I'm speaking generalizationsbecause I don't have the experience here.
And maybe this.
I guess I should saythis more like a question.
But then maybe they have tried to reachout, you know, and they get shut down.
Or again, back to that stigma thing.
(09:11):
It was like,come on, that happened to you,
you know, like eight years agoor whatever.
And like, you know,you should be past that by now.
Yeah.
I've heard comments like that made,you know, multiple times towards
someone who maybe went through somethingthat was difficult and they're like, what?
What? That was like years ago.What's what's the big deal, you know?
And it's again,coming back to that stigma.
I'm not really sure if that's evenreally a question or an observation.
(09:33):
I'd be curious how you would,you know, if you have a response to that?
Yeah.
I mean, we certainly hear lots of storieslike that.
Here's a common response.
And I think it comes from a good place,a very well-intentioned place.
But many times we try to be encouraging
by pointing out the positive.
You know, this comesup in the context of loss, for example.
(09:55):
Well,you still have three other children or
or she's in heaven or whatever.
And man, I mean, God bless peoplefor trying to be encouraging, right?
I mean, you can you can really
I think we need to credit people'sheart and people's intentions.
But many timesour attempts to be encouraging or positive
just have the impact ofof invalidating people's feelings.
(10:19):
One of the things I just thinkis so helpful
to appreciateis that yes, people need to be encouraged.
They need to be lifted up,
but they also need to be validated.
And many timespeople find it much easier to feel better
and have a positive outlook on lifewhen they're distressed.
Feelings have been validated.
(10:41):
When somebody saysI get it I get what you're going through.
Now I know you can go too far with that.
I mean we in the counseling worldtry not to just
wallow in negativity and you know,
but I think so many people
who are trying to help other,you know, friends or family or whoever,
(11:04):
their attempts to be encouraging
end up being unintentionally invalidating.
And, you know, that's not what.
That's not what any of us need, whetherwe're at a trauma history or otherwise.
So back to okay.
So we have stigmas rightthat surround this.
(11:24):
And then what are maybesome healthier ways we could respond.
I'm going to use a Just a minor example.
And I'm curiousto hear what you think of this.
I had interaction with, someone who hadwent through some very difficult things,
on the mission
field and had come back and didn'treally know what to do with that.
And, yeah, just it was a challenge.
(11:44):
And it had been years before.
And then that person started workingwith a totally separate group of people
that had also done some mission workthat was very similar
and went through a very similar thing.
And that was a very healing processfor that person.
And it wasn'tit wasn't like a structured thing.
It wasn't like, oh,
this is our project personthat we're going to all help, you know.
(12:05):
It wasn't that at all,but it was really neat, actually.
See that person to kind of kind of open upand start blossoming again.
Is there a power in that?
Yeah.
Like, these were these weren't even peoplethat really knew each other
that deeply is just through osmosis,I guess.
Be curious.
Yeah, some feedback on that.
Like, I'm just kind of looking forwhat are some healthy ways
that we can engage with peoplethat that have this.
(12:27):
I love it. I love that story.
And I'm just thinkingif somebody had come along and said,
oh, you had traumatizing experienceson the mission field, let's fix you.
Let's tell you what you need to do here.
And probably it would have beena very different experience.
Yeah.
Obviously there's a placefor being intentional of course, but
(12:47):
one of the things I hear that storiesthe power of shared experience, the power
of relating to other people who have hadsimilar experiences or similar stories,
and that is so helpful for trauma,for addiction, for mental health.
Is it it's kind of this.
It can help that person feel.
(13:10):
I, I'm not the only person inthe whole world that's had this, you know.
Because I think that's the one thing.
Like, yeah.
No, you're not the only personin the world that's had that experience.
I mean, you know.
And that was definitely the senseI got from this person.
And to watch that process.
And they were like,oh, wow, I'm not the only one
(13:30):
who went through this and really struggledin this way or whatever.
And it's one thing to just know thatI mean most of us
oh I think this is generally to
we know notionallyall of these different things.
At least a lot of them,a lot of the most life giving things.
We know them.
But to have the experience of relatingto someone
who has been through the same thingor hearing their story
(13:52):
and actually have a group around youin real life that you can interact with,
right, versus knowing that those peopleare out there in some kind of sense.
I mean,maybe they're there somewhere. Yeah.
Is this something that
when we're looking at
going throughsomething that say was traumatic,
(14:13):
the healing process is
not necessarily in isolation like that?
You we keep coming backto other people in the process.
Being part of, of,
a more healthy response versussome of the stigmas where it is.
I guess what I'm trying to say is,I'm sure there's listeners
(14:34):
hearing this saying,
oh, yeah,I like I know someone who went through
that, that,that was a really that was really tough.
And I think they're struggling and they'rethinking, well, what can I do to help?
It seems like we keep coming around to
other peoplebeing involved in some way or another.
What are what are ways that peoplelistening to this like, hey, I could
(14:55):
I could be of help or I don't even knowhow to frame that because
each situation is different, Yeah.
Yeah, that's that's that's true.
So knowing your role and stayingin your lane, I think is pretty important.
So it makes so much difference.Are you a pastor?
Is it a close family memberor is it, is it,
(15:15):
a next door neighboror are you a mentor to this person?
One of the things I think is so importantis it really is okay
to just bewhatever your role is, to just be that.
And so if you're a friend of someonewho has a trauma history,
you don't have to be their counselor.
You don't have to be their pastor.
You don't have to be their life coach.
(15:38):
It's okay to just be their friend.
Even if they continue struggling, right?
I think it could be easy to feel like
me being a friend of
this person, supporting this person,being available for them.
What good is thisif they're not getting better?
And so I need to do moreand get more involved.
One of the things I think we see a lotfrom a counseling perspective is loved
(16:03):
ones or mentors who become overinvolvedin unhealthy ways. Now.
I hesitate to make too much of thatbecause we want people
to be more involved.We want more community.
We want more help and supportfor for any number of struggles.
But the wrong kind of involvementoften is counterproductive.
(16:26):
And I think what happens iswhen a friend stops being a friend
because they're anxiousabout the suffering
and they want to fix it.
It's okay to just be a friend.
It's okay to just be supportive andpoint them to other additional resources.
You know, stay in your lane.
(16:47):
That partially answers your question.
That's I think thatyeah that's really good though.
And also I'm getting a sense
from youthat you wouldn't want to treat this as.
Okay. This is,this is the project person I'm working on.
You know I'm trying to fix this or.
Yeah, whatever.
it's hard to.
(17:07):
It's hard to.
Man. I want to choose my words carefully.
It's hard to tolerate
another person's suffering.
When I say tolerate, I don't meanto be indifferent to, obviously,
but there is a sensein which we really have to come to terms
with the ongoingsuffering of people in our lives.
(17:30):
I have to be okay with the fact
that this isn't going away right away,and that's hard.
And that's where compassion is.
I mean, the literal meaning of compassionis to suffer with to share the suffering.
And many times what we want to dois get rid of the suffering.
And again that comes from a good place,that comes from, from mercy,
that comes from our desire for their good.
(17:52):
But if I can't toleratewhat you're going through,
unintentionally, that ends up againinvalidating
the other person's experience.And it's so much harder to be with them.
You can't be with a personand be connected to a person.
And if you can't toleratetheir experience, does that make sense?
It does.
(18:13):
Yeah it does.
And I feel like there's athere's that's an important piece
because it's easyto want to go down the street of.
Well okay well here's the checklist.
You know and okay
once we check these boxes boom we’re fixedand humans just aren't really that way.
Exactly.
Yeah. Yeah.
Like, that's just
it's,
(18:34):
There's a, there's a real sensein which trauma is relational.
So it relational in this sensethere's a difference
between experiencing emotional painwhen you're connected to someone
in the experience and experiencingemotional pain when you're alone.
(18:55):
And many, many,many people have been traumatized.
A root
issue I'm not going to say the root issue,but a root issue is that their traumatic
experiences happened when they were aloneor when they were not connected.
Or maybe there was someonephysically present
who was treating them aggressively,but they weren't connected.
And that lack of connection,that being in pain
(19:17):
and being alone in the experience,
in many ways, that is the trauma,in many ways that defines the trauma.
And so the healing that can comefrom being with a person
in their suffering,
not trying to fix it,
not trying to be the answer person.
In many ways, that is the healing.
(19:39):
That's powerful that
that concept of with like with someone.
I think when,when we had had a call before
before this when we were kindof talking through like hey yeah.
What do we want to doto get on the podcast?
You had mentioned something like this,and I feel like that's pretty relevant.
Well, you used the word withness,Was that it withness and you.
You'd said something like,sitting with people through through this
(20:03):
or like being therewith this sense of with people,
which is very different than saying, oh,this is a project and here's a checklist.
And we're going to fix it, you know,with one, two and three, things.
There's something beautiful about that.
You know.
And there's
this one that's a theme throughoutscripture to, Emmanuel, God with us.
(20:24):
You know, in tabernacle,God tenting with us
or dwelling down with us, etc., etc..
You can trace thisall through Scripture. Yeah.
And then that's how the book of
revelationand the whole Bible really ends with
God coming down to be with his people.
That concept of withis just really powerful and potent.
(20:46):
and knowing and experiencingGod is with us in our pain
or even in memories of our pain.
Now I do want to just quicklysay there is certainly a place for tools.
There's certainly a placefor the practical and the nitty gritty.
Everything here is not just relational.
For sure.There's a whole other side to it.
But Yeah. And I think that's
(21:08):
definitely the disclaimer to give toI mean
we are talking in pretty general terms.
Every situation is different.
Trauma is a very multifacetedvery complex
subject fraught with disclaimersor the need for disclaimers.
But with with what we were just saying.
Feels like it, transitions nicelyfor for another question to have for you.
(21:29):
So how can we be gracious and caring
for those that are suffering trauma?
So I think doing our own work
is helpful, for one thing.
So not everyone has experiencedtrauma per se, unless you define it
in the broadest sense.
But we've all suffered in some way.
We've all struggled in some way, andI think the people who do the best work,
(21:53):
the people that are best friends,the best mentors to the traumatized,
have a sense of their own pain,
their own struggle in life,and have received
compassion from others and, from the Lordknow how to bring it to the Lord.
Know how to identify and workthrough their own feelings.
I think that really helps.
(22:13):
I think that's really good stewardshipof of our own souls
and gives us more to offer other people.
I think curiosity is so important.
So it's so easy to come in with theories
and with agendas,and you need this or you need that.
And I think we just need to be curious.
I think we need to ask people,what do you need?
(22:36):
What are you struggling with?
What would be helpful for you?
What is your story?
Now again, it depends on your lane, right?
Because there are some people that,
you know, depending on your role, maybethey shouldn't be telling you their story.
That's for them to decidewho they tell their story to.
That's it's deeply personal.
But but depending on your role,you know, asking questions.
(23:00):
Being curious.
I think hearing the storiesof the traumatized is so helpful.
I think that helps usget at a visceral level
how much people have sufferedand what people go through
and and just being educated on the issue.
(23:21):
So as we look at this whole package,I guess you could say
or this topic, we've exploreddifferent avenues and things.
Let's, let's bring it down to somethingreally practical to round it out
and end this episode with, again,for those that are listening to this
real practical, what are lists,
something that the listenerscan do right now to help?
(23:42):
Is there placesthey should go to learn more?
Is there, you know, simple things,even first steps that they can take,
to start being part of that or to,to start helping those around them
that that may have suffereda traumatic experience.
So you're talkingthis is from the helpers perspective.
Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah.
(24:03):
A listener whose is hearing thisand they're like, wow, I, you know,
I want to help in some way.
What's the what's a real practical,just first step that they can take.
So againnot to sound like a broken record
but if,if this fits with your role in their life.
Help them find a trauma therapist.
(24:24):
Now that is a
difficult topic for a variety of reasons.
Yeah.
I was going to sayI agree with you for sure.
I was actually just interacting
with someone recentlyand I was encouraging them on that.
On that track.
And that person was like,oh, I just never thought of that.
That's really helpful. Yeah. Like,can you help me with that process?
So that worked out.
(24:45):
But then sometimes there's again,
there's a stigma around these thingsand people like, oh, I don't, you know.
But anyways, yeah.
so it might be helpful to back upjust a little bit and
let's talk about the field
of peoplehelping and counseling in therapy.
One of the things that could be helpfulto know is
this is an extremely diversefield, very diverse.
(25:09):
There are coaches, life coaches.
There are marriage counselors.
There are addiction counselors. There are.
And then in addition to all that,there's all these different models.
I mean, there's no endto the number of models.
It's a very bewildering alphabetsoup of of different theories.
So what am I saying?
(25:29):
That I'm saying that people helpingis about specialties,
probably more than it used to be.
Now, it's certainly truethat if you go to a therapist,
they're probably going to be preparedto deal with any number of issues.
That's that's certainly true.
But I guess what I'm saying is that traumatherapy is a fairly
specific, specialized kind of work.
(25:52):
Or it can be that can be helpful context.
Why do I say it's difficult?
So one reason is, in spiteof what I just said about specialties,
if you go onlineand look at a therapist profile,
the chances are it will say that they workwith trauma, right?
I mean, most therapists,when they list their qualifications,
(26:16):
they're saying, I work with this and this.
And, you know,
they try to make it
as inclusive as possible because they wantto get more and more clients.
So it can be challenging to find someonewho is actually a specialist in trauma.
I think,
experience going for
an experienced therapist is really good.
(26:38):
I think networking with peoplewho are somewhat familiar with
the field is really good.
Knowing someone who knows something about
counseling therapy,who can make recommendations.
Sometimes they're doctors,they can make recommendations.
But yeah, it's it's kind of.
Yeah.
Go online and Google trauma therapists.
(27:00):
It can be bewildering, you know, to, Yeah.
How do you find someone like that?
And how do you find outwhat their qualifications really are?
So I feel like that's kind of a.
I feel like that doesn't
give people a lot to work with.
(27:21):
So how do you find them?
That's an issue. But.
But there are really good people out therethat do really good work.
I think part of what I was trying to sayearlier
about the variety of, of different,people helping
fields.
Just because someone is a counseloror a therapist
(27:41):
doesn't mean theynecessarily know how to work with trauma.
They may offer really good thingsand may do really good work,
but it's not necessarily the same thing.
It is a specialized kind of work and justincredible tools have been developed.
They're amazing thingsthat have been discovered
that can be so helpful.
Yeah.
This is wow. Yeah.
(28:04):
It's a lot to think about you know.
And and it can be hard because it's like
especially if you doyou go through something traumatic.
Sometimes it's just like hardto even recognize that it happened.
I know there wasthere was something that happened to me,
a number of years ago,and at the time, it didn't even register.
But then years later, remember? Wow.
Like that actually, that that did affect
me, you know, and didn'treally realize it, like, for a while.
(28:27):
It takes a while for it to sink in or.
Yeah, it was just there, whoa, wait.
Like out of left field,you know, four years later or whatever
it was, it's like,where did that, you know?
And, and so what I'm saying it.
Yeah, it it can beit can be really hard, you know, to like,
figure all this stuff out.
So, I feel like you gave ussome really good stuff.
I feel like there's a lotto think about here with what you shared.
(28:50):
As we tie this up, or is there anythingyou'd want to end this episode with?
Somethingyou want to leave the listeners with?
So the one thing we haven't really gotteninto is from the standpoint
of the trauma sufferer,what is helpful for them.
And I think that's really a good placeto to land the plane for a bit.
(29:12):
A lot of things and
obviously it depends on the kind of traumaand the personal history.
But one thing I always encourage is
do things that are relaxing,
calming, soothing,rejuvenating, energizing.
Many people who deal withtrauma have chronic anxiety.
That's one of the
(29:34):
most difficult byproducts of trauma,
chronic anxiety or anxietythat suddenly gets triggered by,
by a trauma trigger. And,
This doesn't healthe deepest places of the heart,
obviously, but it sure can help.
So exercise is really good.
Deep breathing is really good.
(29:55):
Muscle relaxation is really good.
It's amazing the different state of minda person can get in
as their body is being relaxed.
So that's something that I thinkis really helpful.
It's helpful to know your feelings.
It's helpful to name your feelings.
Journaling can be a powerful way to dothat.
It's really helpfulto know your trauma triggers.
(30:17):
So if a person can see it comingahead of time when this happens
or this situation or this person,these things tend to trigger my trauma.
To really get into that,
we'd have to talk more about triggersand what all that means, you know?
But but I think the more people understand
their individual trauma profile,the better they tend to do.
(30:42):
So. So many people,they're experiencing trauma
or the effects of past trauma,
but they don't really understandwhat's happening to them.
And that really makes itso much harder, right?
That's got to be confusing.
Right. Or disorienting.
Yeah. Both. Yes. Right, right.
(31:02):
And so it helps so much to understandwhat's happening.
Okay. This is my trauma.
I'm being triggered.
This is a trigger that that, this is one of my triggers.
We talk about fight flight, freeze.
And fight mode. Flight mode, freeze mode.
You know, it's helpful to identifythat when it happens.
(31:24):
Oh, I'm in freeze mode right now.
I feel myself shutting down.
This is what's happening to me.
Instead of itjust being this thing that's going on.
And I don't know what it is,and I don't have a name for it.
So those things can be helpful as well.
That's a start.
Obviously, there's a lot more to sayabout the healing process.
Yeah, Yeah I I feel like that's a, a good piece
(31:47):
to make sure we leave people with,you know, here are some
you've laid out at least a couple things,you know, some some next steps
or some things for people to try.
Well, Michael, I really appreciate youtaking the time to share with us today.
This is yeah, this is a difficult topic,and I really hope from this conversation,
(32:07):
people listening to this,have more awareness, for one thing.
And also,
you know, start thinking through, okay,how can how can I be, more gracious,
more caring, loving towards those peoplewho have went through something like this?
Or if someone who has went through that.
You know, hopefullythis has encouraged them as well.
And and so forth.
(32:28):
So yeah,thank you for coming on and sharing today.
Absolutely.
Thanks for listening to this episodewith my Michael Hochstetler.
If you found this interesting,you should consider
checking out our other channel,which is a course taught by Frank
Reed about wholehearted living,serving others, and experiencing healing.
You can find links for that coursein the description down below.
(32:49):
Thanks again for listeningand we'll see you in the next episode.
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