May 15, 2025 • 53 mins
Jeff and Deana Swanson spent years searching the Scriptures to find what Christ was calling them to. They share their story of looking for a community that they could plug into, and how they came to the Anabaptist worldview.
This is the 267th episode of Anabaptist Perspectives, a podcast, blog, and YouTube channel that examines various aspects of conservative Anabaptist life and thought.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
I mean,we have been in different situations
in Anabaptist churcheswhere we've been hurt.
But we if we really believe thisand we do,
we there's no, we're going to bein an Anabaptist church somewhere
because our doctrineand our beliefs are Anabaptist.
And so I think that's been partof the longevity of our journey, is that
(00:23):
we felt like we're going to make it workbecause this is what we believe.
Jeff and
Deana, welcometo the Anabaptist Perspectives podcast.
This is this is interesting.
So I really enjoy getting people'sstories, on this podcast.
(00:45):
And I know you all have quite the storyof different
church backgrounds and religious settings,and it's, yeah,
we're going to capture some of that todayand, and see if there's some lessons
we can learn and pieces that I thinkwill be helpful to our audience as well.
So let me just startwith the first question.
Tell me about your religious upbringing.
(01:05):
Were either of ya’ll part of a churchgrowing up.
I grew up methodist.
And,
was probably there until we got married.
And so
I was sprinkled as an infant.
And then in the sixth grade,I went through a confirmation class
(01:27):
and, I'm pretty sure I heard the gospel
there, and I was encouragedto read the Bible.
So I started reading the Biblethrough, in about the sixth grade.
I feel like, in my upbringing,it was nominal.
I feel like it was a nominalChristian home.
I have wonderful parents,and they were a blessing to me,
(01:49):
but I think it was pretty much for usas a family.
A Sunday thing.
I do remember
feeling like as a child I knew Godand I knew Christ before I was saved
and, had a true relationshipas a child would.
And, I became saved in high school,
(02:09):
I realized that I needed to ask Godto save me through Christ.
And as I said, we wereI was Methodist until we got married.
And then for a while.
Yeah. And what about you, Deana?
I would have grown upCatholic, and I would have been
baptized and sprinkled and confirmedand confessed and everything.
(02:29):
And I'm very thankful.
It was a good background.
I appreciated that respectthat I learned there.
And I'm so thankfulthat my parents took us to church,
when I would have gotten to be aroundcollege, my parents would have switched
to a more of an evangelical background,
and I would have delved into that a bit.
And then before we were married,
(02:52):
I would have started toI got a new job and moved to a new city.
And I found, a good church there.
It was a kind of like a Southern Baptist
church, and I would have been baptizedas an adult there.
So we we both would have grown upin Christian homes.
I would have heard the gospel
from my mother actually, very clearly when I was, I think about seven years old.
(03:13):
Okay. So so both of y'all would you.
So you're saying coming to faith,you said in high school, right.
And then you'd been,maybe a little later.
You're saying it's something like that.
Okay, so when we'd been
talking before we, we'd scheduled this,I was getting a little bit of your story.
And the piece that stuck out to me is.
It sounds like you spent a lot of time
(03:36):
investigating different denominationsor different church,
environments that you were part of.
And, like,I like to hear some of that journey.
I know it's athere's probably a lot of pieces there.
So whatever you, you would,you'd care to share.
But, one of the things with this podcastis we hear from a lot of people,
you know, from around the world,and a lot of them are on a journey.
You know, I'm trying to find a communityto connect with,
(03:58):
and I'm trying to figure out this thing,this, this church thing.
How do I find like minded believers?
And that's a real challenge.
You know, that that canthat can be difficult.
And so, yeah.
What was yourexperience with that process?
So I, I loved the Methodist Church.
I still have fond memories of it.
I felt in college
(04:20):
like the Methodist Church as a whole
was embracing some thingsthat I didn't think were biblical.
I was not super pious.
I think I'm still not super pious.
There was just things
that they were doing thatI thought were where I was at that point.
Like I said, unbiblicaland I was unsure of the direction.
And so we got marriedin the Methodist church
(04:42):
and were there for a few yearsafter marriage,
and it just didn't seem like for
us, a sustainable setting.
And so we went toevangelical type of churches.
I think we would have gone back and forth
between Baptistsand just evangelical non-denom churches.
And when I was getting my master's
(05:05):
and our background, everythingso much around our professions, in Dallas,
we found a, evangelical churchin Dallas, Texas.
I was going to Southern MethodistUniversity
to study music,and we became members there.
And that was where I gotmy first believer's baptism, was there.
And so we were really happy, I think
(05:27):
probably for 15 years after that,in those kind of settings.
We spent some time,quite a few years in Grand Rapids,
Michigan, which and we moved therefor professional reasons.
In a GARB church, what is that,
General Assembly of regularBaptist churches is what that was.
And we loved it.It was quite conservative.
(05:47):
And, it was a blessing,you know, for us for that time. So
so, Jeff, you're
describing like these different partsof the journey and different places.
You know, it sounds likey'all moved around some, so yeah.
What what was some of your journey throughthat, through that process as well?
Like whatwere you experiencing in this time?
Well, first of all,it's like seven years of stuff.
(06:07):
And so I don't even know where to kindof start wading through it, but I'll try,
I think when we were homeschooling.
And so part of itwas, I remember we were reading one time
about other cultures and, it was thesepeople in Africa I believe it was anyway.
But they like, you know, put the thingswith their ears, like hung down really low
and they put all the beads and, like,stretched their necks and everything.
(06:30):
And, we appreciate that, that cultures,
you know, they're beautiful partsof all the different cultures anyway.
But I just said I thought somethinglike, well, that's really barbaric,
you know, that to, you know, to do that,that, you know, that's their culture.
But, you know, and then I realized, well,
I've got metal hanging out of my earsand I've got necklaces and things.
And I was like, well.
(06:51):
And so just kind of like, honestly,just from that chapter
we read in the social studiesbook, whatever,
I just kind of start thinking about, well,maybe I don't want to do this anymore.
I don't know, it just started likein a lot of little ways like that.
We were in church one Sunday and,
an American flag and the, you know,rifles and sabers, the swords and guns
(07:12):
and things, came down and we all sangBattle Hymn of the Republic, I think.
And then, a womanwhose father was a veteran.
And we're very thankful.
We love our country.
We're very thankfulfor all the sacrifices that people made.
But there was a, you know, everybodyclap for the veterans and whatever.
And I just felt likeI came to church to worship God.
(07:34):
I didn't come here to worship my country.
I'm very thankful for my country.
But that's not why I'm in church.
That was part of it.
One of our
dear friends, a couple of emactually got divorced and remarried.
And again,we were searching the scriptures,
asking our ministers, like,what's the doctrine with this?
Because it just seemed
(07:55):
just didn't seem right. And,
they ended up like coming to churchwith their other spouses,
and it justit just seemed so mixed up and weird.
It does feel kind of bizarre.
So we we were justwe were searching the scriptures
and trying to figure out what what doesGod's Word say about this
And if you could summarizethrough this process,
(08:17):
what did you all feel likeyou were searching for.
I feel, to be totally honest,maybe we weren't searching that.
Maybe God was leading, many of these convictions,
including the veilingthat you had talked about were,
shamefully to me, Deenawas having the convictions before I was.
(08:38):
And so I don't feel like we were purposelysaying we need to search for something.
I feel like God was showing Deena thingsbefore me.
And, one of those things,the veiling frustrated me.
I wasn't convicted of it at all.
But we would ask our people,and a lot of them were very educated.
We were close to a,
(08:59):
high profile
seminary, and so they were very wellversed in the scriptures.
And I ask a about thethe First Corinthians,
you know, talking about the veiling.
And I got the answer
about the the prostitutes in Corinth,and they really couldn't say why
we don't do it except for the that answerthat it was a cultural thing back then.
(09:21):
And, I later found out that thatthat reason and that that story
about the prostitutes in Corinthactually is nowhere
recorded in a secular wayor in a historic way.
Anyway, it's something that they saidand that frustrated me
that they couldn't give a good answereven though I wasn't there yet.
So what do you think about searching?
(09:41):
Were you searching?
One of our ministers
one time said, like you were walkingin all the light that you had.
And I did feel that way,that whenever we would read something else
or study something else and think, well,
maybe we think this or whatever,I think that was.
Yeah, I wouldn't saywe were necessarily searching.
We were just kind of starting to feel like
(10:03):
our beliefsaren't fitting in quite as well anymore.
The more we learnedand researched and studied and.
Yeah, So maybe searchingmay not be quite the right word but,
but journey definitelyseems like the word right where you're,
like you said walking in,but at least the light you have
at the moment, you know,
and you're and you're learning moreand you're asking questions and things.
(10:27):
so through this process.
So it sounds like there wasa number of things happening to here.
I mean, you're you're in variousdifferent churches.
You mentioned some thingsthat were painful and like, oh, I'm
not sure about that, you know,and then the part on the, head covering,
at what point do the Anabaptistscome into the picture here?
Like, where did you hear about most,you know, Amish or Mennonites, whatever.
(10:48):
You know, it's easy.
I guess you can bump into thatdifferent places.
But where did that enter the story?
I think at first all we knew
were Amish, like, you know, you've seenpictures of them or books or something.
And obviously it was a cultural thing.
Yeah.
And I think we like,I know looked at like that one time, like
(11:10):
not not because of we never thoughtwe would ever be anything like this.
We just and it was like, oh,they speak German.
Well, we're out there, you know, and,
you know, how could anybody ever gobe a part of that?
You have to learna whole different language or whatever.
And that was like, oh, they drive
horse and buggies and and Jeff'sallergic to horses, so we can't hear.
(11:30):
so this was not going to bemuch of an option.
Okay. No.
And I and I'm likeI can't live without air conditioning.
But just out of kind ofjust out of curiosity and honestly,
it was like a vacation thing, like, it'swe had young children.
There was nothing offensive, you know,you can like, whatever.
Go and and,I think we went down to Goshen to go.
We had an antique mall,to be fair to our people,
(11:52):
I mean, we just did go down to Goshen,Indiana to look at the Amish that.
Yeah, we get so frustrated now.
And like in Lancaster County,
when these people drive so slowand they want to look at the Amish,
and we've seen comments on social mediaabout how somebody saw
an Amish person's laundryand you know, how mystical that is.
(12:12):
And so it really was us.
And we love the Anabaptistsand what it stands for.
But we were totally those peoplethat would go down to Indiana
to look at Amish, kind of thatalmost like intrigued, touristy type
or, as a curiosity maybe Yeah.
But I do think there was an attractionto something that was to
(12:33):
us looked more biblical.
Not as you know, thatthey were doing things that we weren't.
Why did they do them andwhat was the reasoning behind all of that?
And again, not necessarilythat we were just searching.
It was just like, well, what is thisand what is this?
And feeling a little bit pushed out?
Maybe we don't fit as well here anymore.
(12:56):
Where would we fit?
You know,just kind of looking around a little bit,
again, kind of that journey of tryingto find a, a place,
you know, a place to plug into, perhaps
not yet.
Not yet.
You have to tell them about thethe homeschool show.
A big part of our journey waswe were homeschooling.
And so through that, we came into contactwith a lot of wonderful people.
(13:17):
And so one of the band groupsI was teaching,
we had homeschool bandwith like a thousand people in it,
and we were performingat a homeschool convention thing.
And so I was there and I would always go
look at the books and all thatbecause I was homeschooling,
but there was a family there,and they were selling harps,
and I played harp some in college,but I did not own a big harp.
So they had these smaller harps,and I was like,
(13:38):
oh, well, maybeI could get one of those or whatever.
So I picked up a little pamphlet thing,and honestly, I stuck it in a drawer
for five years.
It was seriously,it was just sitting there for five years.
and again, we did this whole long process.
So I think it was five years later,Jeff decided that he
he was working at a school,spending a lot of hours.
(14:00):
I was home homeschooling five children.
He was working 70, 80, 80 hours a week.
And we were like,
this is not this is not, you know,we have two different lifestyles.
And we didn't want our family to be that.We wanted to be closer.
And so, he resigned from his teachingposition and we moved to be the family.
We moved out of state just to bewith our family and kind of regroup.
And so when we were going throughthat process is when I decided
(14:24):
I'm going to order a harp.
So I pulled the thing out of the drawerafter five years, and I ordered a harp.
So we moved down there.
And at that point, we were just visiting
any kind of a churchthat we thought might work.
We tried everything.
I mean, we were we were pretty convincedthat it was in North Carolina.
That's where I was born.
And we had always wanted to live there.
(14:46):
And, we were sure we were going to find ajust this awesome Bible Belt
Southern Baptist Church
with the children's ministriesand great music and so,
just to interject that we weren't surewe were going to be able to be plugged
in quickly with another church,you know, of that brand that fit
a little bit morewhere we were now with our convictions
(15:07):
and so we couldn't.
And in the meantime,I called this family to tell them,
my harp wasn't quite ready yet,but it was almost ready.
So I said, oh, well, hey,when you send it,
please send it to this new addressbecause we moved.
And then the the dad that made the harpsort of said, well do you have
oh you moved, do you have a churchdown there that was like, no.
(15:29):
Like what on earth would he know about?
You know, he's five states awayand he just said, oh, I know of a a
I said, we're looking for somethinga little bit more conservative.
We aren't really sure, butand I didn't know what they were.
I knew they had something on their heads,but I didn't know what they were.
We had seen a picture of the familyand we were educated enough.
At this point.We were like, well, they're not Amish,
and apparentlythey're not Mennonite either.
(15:53):
And we were just like,so I don't know what what they are.
Yeah. anyway?
So he said, oh, well, I know of a church.
It was about an hour and a half away.
And so Jeff called
the minister and he ended up actuallycalling back when Jeff was gone.
So I had to talk to him.
And I think I said something like,what am I supposed to wear something?
(16:15):
Because we were by then, we,we were dressing a little different.
And we were we were getting closerto this end of things slowly.
And he said, no.
He said, you just come as you are.
And that was really,
was just what we needed to hear.
Like, just come as you are.
We don't expect anything.
(16:35):
And that's so that was neat. So we
we went there, we visited.
That would have been our first Anabaptistchurch.
that's the first timeyou actually went to a service
like a Mennonite or Anabaptist,whatever you want to call service.
That's interestingbecause this is like a multi-year process.
Then you know it didn't happen super fast.
(16:57):
I guess.
Okay.
So you're,you go through that and then at what,
what are the things that startedattracting you then more specifically
to the Anabaptist, like,you're on this journey,
you're goingyou're meeting some of these people.
Go visit this church.
Yeah.
Speak into that a bit, what were youseeing there that that attracted you?
(17:18):
I mean, I think at that pointand even till now,
what attracted us in and attracts us,obviously
there's always the lifestyle thingthat our people from our background see,
I mean, we just have to be honest,it is there.
But in the end, it's the
the adherence to the scripturesto us was just awesome.
(17:39):
And we were trying to get answersin our former settings.
And sometimes they had some
and sometimes, you know,they didn't like with the veiling.
And it was so nice to be in a church
where we could just sit down and askquestions, and they would give us answers.
And the teachings were there.
They were wonderful tractsthat would go through all these
(17:59):
doctrinal things and,that blessed us as well.
we found out quicklythat first Sunday we were there.
We understood community in a way.
I think that that we never did.
So, as soon as the church meetingwas done,
I was rather surrounded by men,
talking to me and and being kind to me.
(18:21):
And that really is a blessing.
It's awkward when you visit a church,obviously, and nobody talks to you.
And I thought, I thought, this is awesome.
I don't know wheremy wife is in the church right now
in the church building.
And I thought, if if I go find my wifeand the women are talking to her,
(18:41):
with the enthusiasm that the men
are talking to me,then this might just have to be it.
I mean, I was shocked,and so I went and found Deena,
and sure enough,she was surrounded by women
and they were talking to herand welcoming her.
And so that was a huge thing.
So the so still to us today, the doctrine
and the communitythat we have is such a blessing.
(19:06):
And so, we went home
and I honestly think we didn't talk muchabout the church for a week.
I don't know why,because we talk about everything.
And so at the end of the week,I think Deena brought it up.
She said, what do you think, Jeff?
And I said, we have to go back.
You know, I said, what do you think?
And she said, yeah, we have to go back.
And so that was it.
(19:27):
We were on the journey now.
Yeah.
The the community aspect is an interestingpiece you're pulling out there
that really stuck out to youthen in that process there's nothing
like nothing that I found.
I don't want to overstateour experiences, are our experiences.
And I don't want to make itlike we've lived everything.
(19:47):
But in my experience, in our background,
there's nothing likethe community of the Anabaptist.
I think the Amish have us all,just to be fair
on really, really, really close community.
I teach, singing to the Amish,and so we've gotten to rub
shoulders with them,and I think they have us all,
but all the rest of the Anabaptistgroups were we still are
(20:10):
so much closer than I felt likewe were in our former background.
I am a music teacher and doing that.
Choir tours are just part of life,and this thing where we can call a church
or multiple churches in multiple citiesand say, we're bringing
60 people to your church, will you hostus, will you feed us three times
(20:32):
and will you get housing for all of usand the church,
usually to say, if they're not busy,of course we would, and make it work.
That is the most amazing community.
I had never seen anything like thatuntil we were part of this,
these settings.
And so it just thrills me and I,we still go to churches.
Some are new to meand some are not around the country.
(20:52):
And for them to plan these thingsand be that welcoming
obviously to people that they do know,some of them, because, you know,
a lot of our people are related,even across state lines.
But, it just thrills me.
And, it is a huge deal.
So in this part of the storythen you're starting
to get connectedmore with the Anabaptist community.
(21:14):
You're mentioning thingslike hospitality.
I guess you could say. All right.
That would be one way to describe itthat really stuck out to you.
But what was the process itselflike joining the Anabaptists?
As yousaid, you knew there was already sort of,
you know, years before you ever wentto an Anabaptist church that was starting,
but then actually joining process.
(21:35):
What was that like?
I would say that because
of the seven years of
just slow curiosity reading,you know, scripture reading doctrine
and studying everything and, and again,not being set
on, we're going to go be thiswe had no idea we were going to be this.
(21:56):
We were just looking for something thatfit more with the doctrine that we were
convicted of at that time.
So that by the time
we walked in the door again
just to visit this Anabaptist churchthat we'd heard about,
I think I was probably 90,maybe 95% there.
(22:17):
And you were about what?
63%. I would say 75 or 80.
But we werewe had taken our time for so long
and then look at again,just looking for a place
where we would fit in betterwith what we already believed.
But it it made it much easier
as far as what we believed culturally,it was much harder.
(22:41):
There were a lot of things that we andit wasn't necessarily anything biblical,
but just cultural things
that we didn't understand or comprehendor have any framework for at all.
That was really,
I don't know, like getting throwninto ice water or something in some ways.
And we felt like we had so many thingsin common doctrinally,
(23:04):
but yet culturally totally different.
That was hard. That's.
That's it.
That's an important piecethat I don't want to rush past.
I'd like to drill into that a bit more.
As much as you care to share, I don't wantto press on it too much, but it
the doctrine alignment is one thing.
(23:24):
But then there's the cultural element,and it's easier.
It's easy to kind ofcatch one or the other, but not really
notice both if you know what I mean?
Like you were saying, how it's easyfor people to oh, look at the Amish and,
you know, kind of the Amish tourism,whatever you
that's kind of lookingat the cultural side.
Whoa, that's really interesting.They do it this way.
But then there's also the doctrinal side,
you know, and sometimes you have peopleattracted to one of those or the other.
(23:47):
Right.
And so you understand in our casethat there's some doctrinal alignment.
Then the cultural process, ismaybe is a lot.
And I think it's importantthat we're honest about that, you know,
yeah.
Talk me through that process a bit.
As, as much as I'd like to share.
So I don't think we realize,since we're all neighbors
(24:09):
in the United Statesto some point in Canada,
how much of a different cultureit is socially
than it is in.
I mean, in so many wayswe look the same besides dress things.
And so there are lots of little innuendos,is that the right term,
and nuances socially though.
(24:30):
I mean, we're still figuring out,
I mean, I teach music to kindergartenthrough 12th grade.
Sometimes I think to the five year oldsI teach understand their culture
better than I do.
And this is about our 19th year,with the Anabaptists.
That's incredible.
And so and it's just tiny little things,you know, some things are just,
(24:51):
some things that we would say
we'd be told,you know, that's actually inappropriate.
And I'd be like, wow, I feel so bad.
And then sometimes, you know,the Anabaptists would use a phrase
and I'd be like, oh, that'skind of irreverent and it went both ways.
And, and it's just frustrating,you know, to be
in your 30sand 40s and be learning things like that.
(25:12):
And then, I mean, some of it's
lighthearted, like,I remember the first time
somebody said, we're having haystacks.
And I thought, okay, haystacks.
And then I noticed that it lookssort of like Mexican food
because Deana is from Texasand we love good Mexican food.
And so they put all of it in a pile.
And I thought,oh, that's, that's irreverent.
And then
(25:32):
and then they got the ranch dressing outand put it all over and I'm like, okay,
this is wrong.
And so
I'm still not sureif it's supposed to be sort of Mexican
or if it's just a mealwith Mexican ingredients.
I don't know, I've, I've
honestly not figured it out either myself,but I've never thought of that before.
That's actually kind of hilarious.
And so that's a happy
(25:53):
a funny way to look at,you know, culture shock, in a subtle way.
That's interestingthat you use the phrase culture shock.
Yeah. Is that kind of what it felt like.
It Well, it was spurts of culture shock.
It wasn't like suddenly, wow.
Because we had watched it.
I would say that they were very
(26:15):
open in patient and answered ourthey were very approachable.
Yeah.
I wonder sometimes, are we approachable?
You know,and if they were very approachable
they would answer our questions.
They were very accepting of us.
But yeah, I just
I don't know why the food thing comes up,but I the first time
we went through the food line, whatever,I and I looked and I was like, oh.
(26:37):
And I said, Jeff,they make their own little Debbie's.
They were little whoopiepies like wrapped up.
And I was like, oh, they make their ownlittle Debbie's like so that but again,
those things have nothing to dowith doctrine or anything biblical.
They're funny and they're little quirks.
And I think that was importantfor us was to separate, you know?
Okay, I don't make Little Debbie.
(26:58):
I'm sorry, don't make whoopie pies.
But that has nothing to do with what
I believe about these doctrinal issues.
And I think that helped us a lot towas just to, to appreciate the differences
and just say, well,I didn't grow up like that.
My mom didn'tteach me how to make whoopie pies,
but that doesn't mean I'mless of a homemaker or less of a Christian
or something,because it's not a doctrinal issue.
(27:20):
but at the same time, the culture element
can result in a lot of confusionand disorientation.
Right. It was huge.
It was huge.
It was very like you said,especially we were in our 40s, 30s, 40s.
And it was,
you feel like by thatpoint you've got a few things figured out,
and then all of a suddenyou think maybe we don't.
Yeah, yeah.
Again, just it feels, in my mind.
(27:41):
The word it keeps coming up is.
Yeah, disorienting.
You know, you've lived this,
this portion of your life and, like, okay,you know, kind of know how things work.
And then.
So then you're in an environment
where you keep getting hit with randomsurprises, where it's like, whoa,
how did you how did you work through that?
I think we get askednot often, but enough.
What can the Anabaptists do to, make it
(28:05):
so that all the people from our backgroundwill come into the churches and stay?
And I think they want this list of, horrible things that the Anabaptists
are doing to offend the peoplefrom our background that they leave.
And I think we've decidedthat there's nothing like that at all.
It tends to be it.
Well,
it tends to be people who decide that it'sjust not worth the cost, for one thing.
(28:26):
But for this specific conversation,there are misunderstandings.
I think that all that happen,the Anabaptists do
have a social worldview,as do the non Anabaptists.
And so I think sometimeswe mind read each other incorrectly
and and since we're in an Anabaptistsetting,
(28:47):
you know, their mind readingis going to be more valid to some point
because it's the predominating worldviewof the of their church.
And so we're the ones that can feelkind of silly, you know, and be left out.
And so I like animals.
And so, we had some friendsand they almost adopted
as they were so wonderful to uswhen we first came to the Anabaptist.
And so I would just go outand pet their cow and talk to it.
(29:09):
And they told me after, a yearor so they said,
we thought that you were not a Christianbecause you, like, worshiped animals.
And I was I was like,
oh, okay.
Interesting. Right.
And so, you know, they said like,you know, he's to eat or whatever.
And I probably said,you know, don't, don't eat them.
And I mean, anyways.
(29:30):
And so they're like, yeah.
And so things like that,I just think, you know, they're thinking,
wow, this guy really is kind of messed up.
He worships animals.
And I was just like,I just like to pet animals, anyways.
So some things like that, ya’ll arelooking at me like that is kind of weird.
Jeff. Anyways.
Well but I think this is,this is kind of like
(29:51):
a fish in water doesn't, doesn'trealize there's water around it, you know,
like that's how it is with the culturesthat we, that we live in.
Sometimes it's immersive.
And then when someone triesto break into that space,
it can just be complicated,I guess is the word that comes to mind.
I think preconceived notions,
are really not helpful either.
I know one time I sewedsome dresses and I had taken Home EC,
(30:17):
I don't know why or whatever,and I knew how to sew anyway, so I'd sewn
some dresses for my my daughters and I,
and we went to churchthe next day or whatever.
And somebody said to me,oh, you have a new dress.
And I said, yeah.
And they said, well, who sewed it for you?
And I said, I sewed them.
And they were like, oh, you sew?
(30:40):
And it was like,yeah, like my mom sewed my grandmother.
So like, what's the big deal?
You can only sewif you're an Anabaptist or something.
So things like that.
I think we're a little like that
because you, you want to fit inlike from our standpoint,
there are so many similaritiesdoctrinally.
We just want to
(31:00):
feel a part of it.
And I think when we felt singled out like,oh, you're so different,
we didn't necessarily and we felt it some,but it was like, oh,
thanks for drawing attention to the factthat, you know, that
you think I'm really different and weird,even though on that issue I wasn't
that was kind of,But I think it was misunderstandings.
I don't think they meant itto be as hurtful as it was.
(31:23):
I was at a brothers meeting onceand I've lovely people and we were
talking about, passing out turkeys
at, Thanksgiving to the community.
You know, it'sjust to be a blessing as a church.
And one of the people said, well,
do you think the people in the communitywill know how to cook the turkeys?
And I was just thinking, okay,you just said that in front of me.
(31:44):
You know, I came from North Carolina,
and, us hillbillies could make the mostwonderful food in the world.
And every one of us knowshow to make a turkey.
And so some things like that,
it comes across as hurtful, but it wasn't really meant to be that way.
And I don't think they thought
I was even in the roomas a non Anabaptist background person.
So there is that.
(32:05):
But it's so easy.
Just have these assumptions that there'skind of happen, you know what I mean?
And that's.
I can seesome of this as, as definitely a process.
You know, as y'all are entering thisand trying to find your way and I think
back to some of the thingsyou were saying, you know,
we all want to have a place likewe want to feel like we belong somewhere.
(32:26):
It feels like that's that's a themethat's coming through this episode.
Right?
Is you're searching, you know, you've beenin these different church situations
and you're trying to find, okay,where do we belong?
Where can we joina community of believers, where we
where we feel like,yeah, we're a part, you know, we fit here.
And in a way,I think everybody's looking for that.
(32:46):
You know?
So this is maybe backing up a little bit,
but I want to make sure we, we,we catch this here.
What were the main points
that convinced you that you wanted to jointhe Anabaptist?
You were hittingsome of the cultural things,
but it'd be interesting to catchsome of the doctrinal, elements as well.
I think it was.
(33:08):
And I don't know when this becamethe defining point, but I feel like that
in all the things that we've seenand we haven't seen
every situation, obviously, in the world,
that the Anabaptist approachto Christianity
is the most biblicaland that's not to run anyone down.
(33:28):
I don't know what you know.
The underground church in China does.
I have respect for it.
I don't know what indigenous peoples, do
that are evangelized and come to Christ,but I feel like what I know of North
American culture, it's the best exampleI've seen.
Of listening to the teachings of the Bibleand reading them and doing them,
(33:50):
and more specific, the teachings of Christ
and, of the sermon on the Mount.
And it's hard for me to think,and I don't want to be arrogant and say,
well, I will never leave.
We're here by God's grace, and I hopethat we will stay by God's grace,
what is dear to us is, again,
listening to the scriptures and saying,it says to do this.
(34:12):
So we're in a churchthat chooses to do those things.
And the Anabaptists aren't perfect withevery little thing that we do, I get that,
but I've never seen any other groupthat really is this dedicated
to to the words of Christand the commands, the scriptures.
And, it would be hard to go back and say,you know, we still have these beliefs.
(34:34):
Well,I don't want to be negative or anything.
You know, and run anybody down,but I feel like this is the best example.
Yeah.
What would you say.
That's it.
I mean,we have been in different situations
in Anabaptist churcheswhere we've been hurt.
But we if we really believe thisand we do,
(34:57):
we there's no, we're going to bein an Anabaptist church somewhere
because our doctrineand our beliefs are Anabaptist.
And so I think that's been partof the longevity of our journey, is that
we felt like we're going to make it workbecause this is what we believe.
Well and that's another thread too that'scoming through is perseverance right.
(35:20):
Is that is that capture it correctly.
Do you want to sayanything more on on that point
I think I mean to peoplethat would be searching and considering
to consider it carefullyand think about it for a long time
and to jump in and to do it in the end
(35:42):
for obedience to God and Christ,
even if the hurts come because you know,I want to do
what God would have us to do and
maybe not be a fundamentalist,
however do to obeyChrist and His commands.
And so, like Deana said, we have been hurt
(36:03):
and people have...
And I feel like we feel it
more since we don't always feellike we are in as a part of the culture.
I think our children do.
So, yeah, the perseverancefor the sake of following Christ
and being in the community of peoplethat follow Christ,
Perseverance for the right reasons.
That’s what I was about to say.
Yeah, because there's so many bad reasonsthat people could do things.
(36:26):
And I feel like for us it was that waswhat ultimately that's what mattered.
That's more important than relationshipsor being misunderstood or whatever.
It's our beliefs.
So we had we had to
I remember one time we said, well,where else are we going to go?
What are we going to?
We have to stick this out.
Yeah,because we do believe what we believe.
(36:47):
So I think that the the modest clothing
in this separation is a big draw.
I just don't think thatthat would be enough for us to stay.
And I think maybe that'swhy some people join for a while
and then go awayand then the lifestyle as well.
Yeah.
I mean, along with us
going to look at the Amish,we tried farming and a tiny bit
(37:09):
of homesteading and starting businessesin, we failed at all of those.
We did really we’re
unapologetically teachers and It's whatwe absolutely love to do. so.
You don't have a little gardenand all the typical Mennonite things,
you know, and I think I got two tomatoesthis year, right.
(37:30):
Well, okay, I don't feel quite so badbecause I'm like the worst gardener
on the planet.
So I just kind of given up hopethat that would ever happen. So,
you know,and we can kind of chuckle about it, but,
you know, like,that's actually a thing like
the Mennonites have their gardensand the whatever.
And if someone's coming in and like,oh, okay, well, if this is like
how we're supposed to do things and,
and yet maybe you're don't want to do itor don't enjoy it or something like
(37:51):
that could be unnecessary pressurethat isn't really intentional.
It just kind of happens. So
as we pull this package together,
what advice would you give to listenersthat are on their own journey right now
of trying to find what churchshould I plug into what
(38:13):
how do I join a communitythat represents the things that I value
and that I believe God is calling me to,and they're on that journey?
Whichever part of the processthey may be in,
because in your situation,it was quite a process, right?
What do you say to those peoplethey're searching,
and what advice would you give them?
(38:34):
I, I think that we should search
for a churchthat we feel very comfortable in.
And, oftentimes
our people come in,they want to be extremely conservative.
We, we want to be the most conservativeMennonite or Amish that we can.
And we get frustrated with the churches
(38:56):
that we find because we feel likethey're not conservative enough.
And so we want the churchesto bend a little for us.
And then I've also seen our people comeand want to be fairly liberal
and, and so they go to,
a conservative churchand they want it to be more liberal.
Am I saying this? Right?
And so, I think it's importantto find a church that is as close
(39:20):
as your belief system, includingculturally, for lack of a better term.
Is it the right conservativeor the right liberal amount for you?
Because it is frustrating,because I feel like some of the
well-meaning Anabaptistchurches will try to make things
a little bit more liberal,if that's what we are pushing for,
because they want to keep us usually,maybe not much more conservative.
(39:43):
And so, I would keep going.
If the churches are availablein the communities where you are
from to try to find something that suits.
And also
our people can be pretty cynicalabout the Anabaptist.
Nuances and things.
And I think hearts come into play.
I think sometimes for a timewhen we come in
(40:03):
for the first4 or 5 years, we kind of feel
and it's not imposed on anyone,
kind of self-imposed, like we don't haveanything to contribute to the community.
And so I feel like we replacethat kind of not feeling valuable
with some cynicism and Mennonite jokes.
And so, I would just avoid that.
(40:25):
I mean, the Mennonitesdo some very charming things
and they can be teased about occasionally,but I just feel like,
you know, keep the cynicism at bay and see
the beauty of the cultureand the wonderful things.
I would say, first of all,and I think, again, what we're for us
was that we already knew what we believed.
(40:47):
We had read the Bible, we studied,
we weren't following any religionbecause we didn't even know it existed.
Really? Or what knew what it was.
And certainlynot the details about it, but
as we grew
spiritually, we just got to a pointwhere this is what we believe.
And so we were looking for a groupthat believed that.
(41:10):
And we certainly never thoughtit would be,
where we ended upwhen we started, for sure.
But that way if you go in and,oh, maybe we'll do this or they do this,
maybe we'll do this and oh,we don't really believe this,
but everybody else does it,so maybe we'll do it.
That's not going to work.
That's not going to last long term.
It's not sustainable. No.
(41:31):
And I feel like there are thingsobviously that we can oh I haven't
thought about that before or that might besomething really good to add in.
But you have to really for us, we had toreally know what we believed before.
You know I think that helped. So much.
I had a friend, and,
her family
was also from non-Anabaptist background,but we were just talking one time,
(41:53):
and she said thather mother would sit in church sometimes.
And after church was over,
all the ladies would,you know, talk about whatever they were.
And she said her mom didn't really
feel like she fit inor had really, you know, close friends.
And, but her mother had said, well,I might not completely fit
in, you know, ever reallyor feel like I do, but my children, will.
(42:18):
and that was the sacrificethat she was willing to make because her
upbringing and background in education,everything was so different.
But she was willing to do that because shefelt like this will benefit my children.
And I have felt like that sometimes.
But I will say in my church setting now,
I feel accepted and appreciated
(42:39):
for the person I amand whatever God's given me.
And that's that's a good feeling.
I haven't always felt that way, butI do really appreciate where we are now.
Some.
And I think that's an important piecethat you had there
that our churches,when I say our churches.
I mean the, the Anabaptist communityneeds to be aware of
(43:02):
is the
and these are hard thingsto know what to do with.
But it is so easy to miss things
because of some of the cultural dynamicsor different backgrounds.
Sometimes there's there's gaps or we'remissing each other in the communication.
And I don't know what the solutions areto these things, you know,
but hopefully we can at least puta little more awareness out there of this.
(43:25):
Maybe that will make people
more gracious and more, willing to learn from each other, perhaps.
I don't even know, you know, and but perhaps you have something
you want to add to that.
I was just going to say, I think
maybe I'm wrong with the men.
Might have an easier time of itbecause they can talk about their jobs or,
you know, whatever.
And I think sometimes for the women,there are bigger differences.
(43:45):
In some ways, I,I don't know, but I feel like.
I've been in situations
where they all grew up together,they all went to school together.
They all, you know,and I just felt like, I'm so different.
You know, I only kind of merge in here,you know, within the past ten years or so.
And so
(44:07):
then I feel likeI'm not going to interrupt
and say, hey, let's talk about this.
That applies to me, you know?
And so but I do really appreciate
the the women that have reached out to me.
And I don't want to be a ministry project.
I don't want that either.
But but but not like ministry projectbut as in like
someone that reached out and caredabout your life and just had interest in
(44:29):
you and, and made an effort to, to includeyou, is that, a way of saying it or.
I don't know, because I don'tI do not want to be a ministry project.
I think Jeff and I have always felt likewe do not want to be needy,
because sometimespeople from our background
can come in and they're so they need thisand they need that and they want that.
(44:50):
It's like take, take, take.
And Jeff
and I never wanted to be like that.We wanted to give we were,
we were frustrated that we could’ntgive more.
And so I never wanted to feel like that.
But it's just it's nice when somebody
includes you or something being includedI think.
Yeah.
It kind of gives a sense of,okay, I belong here, I fit in here.
(45:11):
and to be honest with you, in the churches
where we would talkabout spiritual things,
I felt a lot more
that those conversationswere easy to be a part of.
That's a that's a that's an interestingand I think important, important piece.
There. Yeah.
Do you have something you'd like to add toto what she was saying.
(45:31):
we didn't talk about it much,but that there was a, not a crisis.
But it was hard for us for 2 or 3 yearsbecause we really felt like
we didn't have anything to give.
And this is our perspective,not necessarily everybody
that would come from the non Mennonitebackground.
We were musicians, you know,we had taught high school bands
and instrumental musicwas a huge part of what we did.
(45:55):
And so in our first Anabaptist church,I'm not sure
if they actually what we're thinking,what we thought they were thinking.
Again, on that mind reading.
We thought you just didn'ttalk much about instruments and playing.
And we, you know, play classical musicand other kinds of music.
And so we really felt for a while
like we really don't say worthlessand we didn't want to appear needy.
(46:17):
Like I said, we tried the gardening.
I tried, some construction and carpentrywas kind of fail.
And, and so we just felt likewe had nothing to give in that particular
setting that we were in was a homeschoolonly setting.
And so there was nota Mennonite school there.
And so it was pretty hardfor us to feel included.
And I do think that's one thing for usas Mennonites could do when people come in
(46:41):
is try hard.
And I think a lot of the churches do
once they're church membersespecially, and get them involved in,
serving the church and in the communities,
you know, helping them to be ableto serve in different ways there.
I remember once there was a
fellowship meal, and we really hadn'tbeen asked to do much.
And, a family we knew walked inand they had the spoons and forks,
(47:04):
the plastic ware.
And Deana said,we haven't even been asked to
provide the churchwith spoons and forks yet.
We're really at the bottom of the totempole.
And so, it's a blessing.
Anything we can do to get peoplewhen they come in involved.
And we're so glad that we've been ableto be for 10 or 12 years in communities
where they have Mennonite schools,and we can serve that way.
(47:26):
And we absolutely love itBecause you're both teachers right.
Yeah. Yeah.
So that, that, that part is neat.
But that againthat kind of that perseverance
to, to kind of get throughsome of those hurdles like that.
That's hard. You know that's hard.
I wanted to say to that what he was saying
about like figure outwhere they can fit in.
(47:46):
Not right away, obviously,but when they become members.
Just what.
Yeah. What are their gifts?
What what can theywhat are they comfortable contributing?
What can they help with?
And again, not as a ministry project.
Well, they can't do anything else.
So we'll let them bring the forks.
But figure out how to help people
plug in using the giftsthat God's given them.
(48:07):
I think again the keyI keep coming back to
or thinking through thisas a, as a process for you.
All right. And this is notsomething happens overnight.
You know, it's not likeyou woke up one day and you know,
found a book on the Amish and you're like,I want to be like that.
And you join the Mennonite churchnext week or so, you know it.
That isn't,
(48:27):
I definitely sounds like that's notthe vibe we're going for.
And that these things take a long time.
And I wonder if some of the challenge isperhaps we try to rush things a bit.
I don't know, I could be way off.
But it can be a bit easyto idealize things,
you know, and just think this is goingto be fantastic, and everything's
gonna be great and wonderful.
And then suddenly the culture shock,as you said, you know, is like the
(48:51):
getting dunked in ice water or somethinglike, whoa, I did not expect this.
I don't know, and I could be wrong.
And every story is different.
But I think with usit was almost the opposite.
It was like, oh dear, lookwhat our beliefs line up with.
It wasn't like, oh yeah, we're going to goplay little House on the Prairie.
It was like, oh dear, now what do we do?
Do we want to do this?
(49:12):
This is, you know, and that again,long term that was a really good thing
because we had to think about do we, do weis there anywhere else we fit in?
Is this this is what we believe.
This is where we fit in the best.
And that's what we took quite a whileto even once we set foot in an Anabaptist
church to think, oh dear, are we,are we gonna really do this thing?
(49:34):
And we took a long time and reada lot and studied a lot and prayed a lot.
The other thing was
that when we first walked in, I know oneof the things we loved was the the music.
We just opened the door and we werewe were late.
Of course,people from our background are late,
so we opened the doorand we just heard this.
We loved music all our lives.
We met in a music group. We've beeninvolved in music all our lives.
(49:54):
We heard this beautiful four part sing.
It was like, that is really neat.
But we also there were some thingswe noticed the first time.
Oh, look at that, look at that.
And we picked up very quicklythat Anabaptists are not perfect.
None of us are. Nobody is.
But I think some people would always sayto us in the beginning like,
oh, you know, we're not perfect.And we'd be like, don't worry.
(50:16):
We noticed, you know, we picked that upin the first five minutes.
You know, we
but again, that
that misconception that you think,we think that you're perfect, like.
No. Okay. Yeah.
I see what you are saying.
Yeah.
This, this is quite,this is quite the story. And
(50:37):
I think hopefully the piecethat people are taking out of this is,
is the, the journey and the process,you know, and going through
you know it takes timeand finding that place to,
to plug in what is, what is thatcommunity of believers that you should be.
You know, I'm saying youthat audience, should join in.
(50:59):
What is God calling each of us to?
I think that's and that'sthat's the question, you know,
and I'm sure there's a lot of variationdepending on who it is and where they are.
And that's the challenge.
And I think y'all,you both had some pretty significant
pieces to add as far as theyou have the doctrinal side, right?
The beliefs,but then also the culture element too.
(51:19):
And, and culture is very complexand it's very hard
to understand all the different dynamicsand it's so multifaceted and so forth.
But hopefully there are some pieces herethat some of the listeners look at.
Oh, yeah. Okay. I should, I should be,I should be aware of that.
You know, so as, as we
bring this story to a close and,and tie the,
(51:40):
the ribbons on the package, so to speak,what are any closing
thoughts, words of adviceyou'd want to give to the listeners?
Anything you want to leave us with?
I honestly don't think there's anything
more important than serving God
you know, he says, if you love me,keep my commandments.
And, you know, I had a friend oncethat said, you know what?
(52:01):
If I found a better way than this,I think I'd go.
And, I mean, I don't want to.
That sounds trivial, but truly,I think we should be in churches
and in communities where that's the goal
is to, to serve God through Christand do what Christ says to do.
And I agree,we just come back to that again and again.
(52:22):
It's obedience.
If we, if we do love God will obey him.
His word in whatever way we feel is right.
we found such joy in that,
and freedom. Wow.
Jeff, Deana, thanks for taking the time tocome on today and share your story.
(52:43):
I really appreciate the opennessand I feel like I learned a lot today.
So thank you.
Thanks for having us.
Thanks for listening to this episodewith Jeff and Dina.
If you found this interesting,you enjoy the testimony that we recorded
with Dean Taylor, which you can findthat linked in the description down below.
Considerjoining our monthly partner program,
(53:04):
which you can joinfor a monthly gift of any amount.
You'll get access to an exclusivepartners, podcast as well as other
bonus content.
Thanks againand we'll see you in the next episode.
I mean,we have been in different situations
in Anabaptist churcheswhere we've been hurt.
But we if we really believe thisand we do,
we there's no, we're going to bein an Anabaptist church somewhere
because our doctrineand our beliefs are Anabaptist.
And so I think that's been partof the longevity of our journey, is that
(00:23):
we felt like we're going to make it workbecause this is what we believe.
Jeff and
Deana, welcometo the Anabaptist Perspectives podcast.
This is this is interesting.
So I really enjoy getting people'sstories, on this podcast.
(00:45):
And I know you all have quite the storyof different
church backgrounds and religious settings,and it's, yeah,
we're going to capture some of that todayand, and see if there's some lessons
we can learn and pieces that I thinkwill be helpful to our audience as well.
So let me just startwith the first question.
Tell me about your religious upbringing.
(01:05):
Were either of ya’ll part of a churchgrowing up.
I grew up methodist.
And,
was probably there until we got married.
And so
I was sprinkled as an infant.
And then in the sixth grade,I went through a confirmation class
(01:27):
and, I'm pretty sure I heard the gospel
there, and I was encouragedto read the Bible.
So I started reading the Biblethrough, in about the sixth grade.
I feel like, in my upbringing,it was nominal.
I feel like it was a nominalChristian home.
I have wonderful parents,and they were a blessing to me,
(01:49):
but I think it was pretty much for usas a family.
A Sunday thing.
I do remember
feeling like as a child I knew Godand I knew Christ before I was saved
and, had a true relationshipas a child would.
And, I became saved in high school,
(02:09):
I realized that I needed to ask Godto save me through Christ.
And as I said, we wereI was Methodist until we got married.
And then for a while.
Yeah. And what about you, Deana?
I would have grown upCatholic, and I would have been
baptized and sprinkled and confirmedand confessed and everything.
(02:29):
And I'm very thankful.
It was a good background.
I appreciated that respectthat I learned there.
And I'm so thankfulthat my parents took us to church,
when I would have gotten to be aroundcollege, my parents would have switched
to a more of an evangelical background,
and I would have delved into that a bit.
And then before we were married,
(02:52):
I would have started toI got a new job and moved to a new city.
And I found, a good church there.
It was a kind of like a Southern Baptist
church, and I would have been baptizedas an adult there.
So we we both would have grown upin Christian homes.
I would have heard the gospel
from my mother actually, very clearly when I was, I think about seven years old.
(03:13):
Okay. So so both of y'all would you.
So you're saying coming to faith,you said in high school, right.
And then you'd been,maybe a little later.
You're saying it's something like that.
Okay, so when we'd been
talking before we, we'd scheduled this,I was getting a little bit of your story.
And the piece that stuck out to me is.
It sounds like you spent a lot of time
(03:36):
investigating different denominationsor different church,
environments that you were part of.
And, like,I like to hear some of that journey.
I know it's athere's probably a lot of pieces there.
So whatever you, you would,you'd care to share.
But, one of the things with this podcastis we hear from a lot of people,
you know, from around the world,and a lot of them are on a journey.
You know, I'm trying to find a communityto connect with,
(03:58):
and I'm trying to figure out this thing,this, this church thing.
How do I find like minded believers?
And that's a real challenge.
You know, that that canthat can be difficult.
And so, yeah.
What was yourexperience with that process?
So I, I loved the Methodist Church.
I still have fond memories of it.
I felt in college
(04:20):
like the Methodist Church as a whole
was embracing some thingsthat I didn't think were biblical.
I was not super pious.
I think I'm still not super pious.
There was just things
that they were doing thatI thought were where I was at that point.
Like I said, unbiblicaland I was unsure of the direction.
And so we got marriedin the Methodist church
(04:42):
and were there for a few yearsafter marriage,
and it just didn't seem like for
us, a sustainable setting.
And so we went toevangelical type of churches.
I think we would have gone back and forth
between Baptistsand just evangelical non-denom churches.
And when I was getting my master's
(05:05):
and our background, everythingso much around our professions, in Dallas,
we found a, evangelical churchin Dallas, Texas.
I was going to Southern MethodistUniversity
to study music,and we became members there.
And that was where I gotmy first believer's baptism, was there.
And so we were really happy, I think
(05:27):
probably for 15 years after that,in those kind of settings.
We spent some time,quite a few years in Grand Rapids,
Michigan, which and we moved therefor professional reasons.
In a GARB church, what is that,
General Assembly of regularBaptist churches is what that was.
And we loved it.It was quite conservative.
(05:47):
And, it was a blessing,you know, for us for that time. So
so, Jeff, you're
describing like these different partsof the journey and different places.
You know, it sounds likey'all moved around some, so yeah.
What what was some of your journey throughthat, through that process as well?
Like whatwere you experiencing in this time?
Well, first of all,it's like seven years of stuff.
(06:07):
And so I don't even know where to kindof start wading through it, but I'll try,
I think when we were homeschooling.
And so part of itwas, I remember we were reading one time
about other cultures and, it was thesepeople in Africa I believe it was anyway.
But they like, you know, put the thingswith their ears, like hung down really low
and they put all the beads and, like,stretched their necks and everything.
(06:30):
And, we appreciate that, that cultures,
you know, they're beautiful partsof all the different cultures anyway.
But I just said I thought somethinglike, well, that's really barbaric,
you know, that to, you know, to do that,that, you know, that's their culture.
But, you know, and then I realized, well,
I've got metal hanging out of my earsand I've got necklaces and things.
And I was like, well.
(06:51):
And so just kind of like, honestly,just from that chapter
we read in the social studiesbook, whatever,
I just kind of start thinking about, well,maybe I don't want to do this anymore.
I don't know, it just started likein a lot of little ways like that.
We were in church one Sunday and,
an American flag and the, you know,rifles and sabers, the swords and guns
(07:12):
and things, came down and we all sangBattle Hymn of the Republic, I think.
And then, a womanwhose father was a veteran.
And we're very thankful.
We love our country.
We're very thankfulfor all the sacrifices that people made.
But there was a, you know, everybodyclap for the veterans and whatever.
And I just felt likeI came to church to worship God.
(07:34):
I didn't come here to worship my country.
I'm very thankful for my country.
But that's not why I'm in church.
That was part of it.
One of our
dear friends, a couple of emactually got divorced and remarried.
And again,we were searching the scriptures,
asking our ministers, like,what's the doctrine with this?
Because it just seemed
(07:55):
just didn't seem right. And,
they ended up like coming to churchwith their other spouses,
and it justit just seemed so mixed up and weird.
It does feel kind of bizarre.
So we we were justwe were searching the scriptures
and trying to figure out what what doesGod's Word say about this
And if you could summarizethrough this process,
(08:17):
what did you all feel likeyou were searching for.
I feel, to be totally honest,maybe we weren't searching that.
Maybe God was leading, many of these convictions,
including the veilingthat you had talked about were,
shamefully to me, Deenawas having the convictions before I was.
(08:38):
And so I don't feel like we were purposelysaying we need to search for something.
I feel like God was showing Deena thingsbefore me.
And, one of those things,the veiling frustrated me.
I wasn't convicted of it at all.
But we would ask our people,and a lot of them were very educated.
We were close to a,
(08:59):
high profile
seminary, and so they were very wellversed in the scriptures.
And I ask a about thethe First Corinthians,
you know, talking about the veiling.
And I got the answer
about the the prostitutes in Corinth,and they really couldn't say why
we don't do it except for the that answerthat it was a cultural thing back then.
(09:21):
And, I later found out that thatthat reason and that that story
about the prostitutes in Corinthactually is nowhere
recorded in a secular wayor in a historic way.
Anyway, it's something that they saidand that frustrated me
that they couldn't give a good answereven though I wasn't there yet.
So what do you think about searching?
(09:41):
Were you searching?
One of our ministers
one time said, like you were walkingin all the light that you had.
And I did feel that way,that whenever we would read something else
or study something else and think, well,
maybe we think this or whatever,I think that was.
Yeah, I wouldn't saywe were necessarily searching.
We were just kind of starting to feel like
(10:03):
our beliefsaren't fitting in quite as well anymore.
The more we learnedand researched and studied and.
Yeah, So maybe searchingmay not be quite the right word but,
but journey definitelyseems like the word right where you're,
like you said walking in,but at least the light you have
at the moment, you know,
and you're and you're learning moreand you're asking questions and things.
(10:27):
so through this process.
So it sounds like there wasa number of things happening to here.
I mean, you're you're in variousdifferent churches.
You mentioned some thingsthat were painful and like, oh, I'm
not sure about that, you know,and then the part on the, head covering,
at what point do the Anabaptistscome into the picture here?
Like, where did you hear about most,you know, Amish or Mennonites, whatever.
(10:48):
You know, it's easy.
I guess you can bump into thatdifferent places.
But where did that enter the story?
I think at first all we knew
were Amish, like, you know, you've seenpictures of them or books or something.
And obviously it was a cultural thing.
Yeah.
And I think we like,I know looked at like that one time, like
(11:10):
not not because of we never thoughtwe would ever be anything like this.
We just and it was like, oh,they speak German.
Well, we're out there, you know, and,
you know, how could anybody ever gobe a part of that?
You have to learna whole different language or whatever.
And that was like, oh, they drive
horse and buggies and and Jeff'sallergic to horses, so we can't hear.
(11:30):
so this was not going to bemuch of an option.
Okay. No.
And I and I'm likeI can't live without air conditioning.
But just out of kind ofjust out of curiosity and honestly,
it was like a vacation thing, like, it'swe had young children.
There was nothing offensive, you know,you can like, whatever.
Go and and,I think we went down to Goshen to go.
We had an antique mall,to be fair to our people,
(11:52):
I mean, we just did go down to Goshen,Indiana to look at the Amish that.
Yeah, we get so frustrated now.
And like in Lancaster County,
when these people drive so slowand they want to look at the Amish,
and we've seen comments on social mediaabout how somebody saw
an Amish person's laundryand you know, how mystical that is.
(12:12):
And so it really was us.
And we love the Anabaptistsand what it stands for.
But we were totally those peoplethat would go down to Indiana
to look at Amish, kind of thatalmost like intrigued, touristy type
or, as a curiosity maybe Yeah.
But I do think there was an attractionto something that was to
(12:33):
us looked more biblical.
Not as you know, thatthey were doing things that we weren't.
Why did they do them andwhat was the reasoning behind all of that?
And again, not necessarilythat we were just searching.
It was just like, well, what is thisand what is this?
And feeling a little bit pushed out?
Maybe we don't fit as well here anymore.
(12:56):
Where would we fit?
You know,just kind of looking around a little bit,
again, kind of that journey of tryingto find a, a place,
you know, a place to plug into, perhaps
not yet.
Not yet.
You have to tell them about thethe homeschool show.
A big part of our journey waswe were homeschooling.
And so through that, we came into contactwith a lot of wonderful people.
(13:17):
And so one of the band groupsI was teaching,
we had homeschool bandwith like a thousand people in it,
and we were performingat a homeschool convention thing.
And so I was there and I would always go
look at the books and all thatbecause I was homeschooling,
but there was a family there,and they were selling harps,
and I played harp some in college,but I did not own a big harp.
So they had these smaller harps,and I was like,
(13:38):
oh, well, maybeI could get one of those or whatever.
So I picked up a little pamphlet thing,and honestly, I stuck it in a drawer
for five years.
It was seriously,it was just sitting there for five years.
and again, we did this whole long process.
So I think it was five years later,Jeff decided that he
he was working at a school,spending a lot of hours.
(14:00):
I was home homeschooling five children.
He was working 70, 80, 80 hours a week.
And we were like,
this is not this is not, you know,we have two different lifestyles.
And we didn't want our family to be that.We wanted to be closer.
And so, he resigned from his teachingposition and we moved to be the family.
We moved out of state just to bewith our family and kind of regroup.
And so when we were going throughthat process is when I decided
(14:24):
I'm going to order a harp.
So I pulled the thing out of the drawerafter five years, and I ordered a harp.
So we moved down there.
And at that point, we were just visiting
any kind of a churchthat we thought might work.
We tried everything.
I mean, we were we were pretty convincedthat it was in North Carolina.
That's where I was born.
And we had always wanted to live there.
(14:46):
And, we were sure we were going to find ajust this awesome Bible Belt
Southern Baptist Church
with the children's ministriesand great music and so,
just to interject that we weren't surewe were going to be able to be plugged
in quickly with another church,you know, of that brand that fit
a little bit morewhere we were now with our convictions
(15:07):
and so we couldn't.
And in the meantime,I called this family to tell them,
my harp wasn't quite ready yet,but it was almost ready.
So I said, oh, well, hey,when you send it,
please send it to this new addressbecause we moved.
And then the the dad that made the harpsort of said, well do you have
oh you moved, do you have a churchdown there that was like, no.
(15:29):
Like what on earth would he know about?
You know, he's five states awayand he just said, oh, I know of a a
I said, we're looking for somethinga little bit more conservative.
We aren't really sure, butand I didn't know what they were.
I knew they had something on their heads,but I didn't know what they were.
We had seen a picture of the familyand we were educated enough.
At this point.We were like, well, they're not Amish,
and apparentlythey're not Mennonite either.
(15:53):
And we were just like,so I don't know what what they are.
Yeah. anyway?
So he said, oh, well, I know of a church.
It was about an hour and a half away.
And so Jeff called
the minister and he ended up actuallycalling back when Jeff was gone.
So I had to talk to him.
And I think I said something like,what am I supposed to wear something?
(16:15):
Because we were by then, we,we were dressing a little different.
And we were we were getting closerto this end of things slowly.
And he said, no.
He said, you just come as you are.
And that was really,
was just what we needed to hear.
Like, just come as you are.
We don't expect anything.
(16:35):
And that's so that was neat. So we
we went there, we visited.
That would have been our first Anabaptistchurch.
that's the first timeyou actually went to a service
like a Mennonite or Anabaptist,whatever you want to call service.
That's interestingbecause this is like a multi-year process.
Then you know it didn't happen super fast.
(16:57):
I guess.
Okay.
So you're,you go through that and then at what,
what are the things that startedattracting you then more specifically
to the Anabaptist, like,you're on this journey,
you're goingyou're meeting some of these people.
Go visit this church.
Yeah.
Speak into that a bit, what were youseeing there that that attracted you?
(17:18):
I mean, I think at that pointand even till now,
what attracted us in and attracts us,obviously
there's always the lifestyle thingthat our people from our background see,
I mean, we just have to be honest,it is there.
But in the end, it's the
the adherence to the scripturesto us was just awesome.
(17:39):
And we were trying to get answersin our former settings.
And sometimes they had some
and sometimes, you know,they didn't like with the veiling.
And it was so nice to be in a church
where we could just sit down and askquestions, and they would give us answers.
And the teachings were there.
They were wonderful tractsthat would go through all these
(17:59):
doctrinal things and,that blessed us as well.
we found out quicklythat first Sunday we were there.
We understood community in a way.
I think that that we never did.
So, as soon as the church meetingwas done,
I was rather surrounded by men,
talking to me and and being kind to me.
(18:21):
And that really is a blessing.
It's awkward when you visit a church,obviously, and nobody talks to you.
And I thought, I thought, this is awesome.
I don't know wheremy wife is in the church right now
in the church building.
And I thought, if if I go find my wifeand the women are talking to her,
(18:41):
with the enthusiasm that the men
are talking to me,then this might just have to be it.
I mean, I was shocked,and so I went and found Deena,
and sure enough,she was surrounded by women
and they were talking to herand welcoming her.
And so that was a huge thing.
So the so still to us today, the doctrine
and the communitythat we have is such a blessing.
(19:06):
And so, we went home
and I honestly think we didn't talk muchabout the church for a week.
I don't know why,because we talk about everything.
And so at the end of the week,I think Deena brought it up.
She said, what do you think, Jeff?
And I said, we have to go back.
You know, I said, what do you think?
And she said, yeah, we have to go back.
And so that was it.
(19:27):
We were on the journey now.
Yeah.
The the community aspect is an interestingpiece you're pulling out there
that really stuck out to youthen in that process there's nothing
like nothing that I found.
I don't want to overstateour experiences, are our experiences.
And I don't want to make itlike we've lived everything.
(19:47):
But in my experience, in our background,
there's nothing likethe community of the Anabaptist.
I think the Amish have us all,just to be fair
on really, really, really close community.
I teach, singing to the Amish,and so we've gotten to rub
shoulders with them,and I think they have us all,
but all the rest of the Anabaptistgroups were we still are
(20:10):
so much closer than I felt likewe were in our former background.
I am a music teacher and doing that.
Choir tours are just part of life,and this thing where we can call a church
or multiple churches in multiple citiesand say, we're bringing
60 people to your church, will you hostus, will you feed us three times
(20:32):
and will you get housing for all of usand the church,
usually to say, if they're not busy,of course we would, and make it work.
That is the most amazing community.
I had never seen anything like thatuntil we were part of this,
these settings.
And so it just thrills me and I,we still go to churches.
Some are new to meand some are not around the country.
(20:52):
And for them to plan these thingsand be that welcoming
obviously to people that they do know,some of them, because, you know,
a lot of our people are related,even across state lines.
But, it just thrills me.
And, it is a huge deal.
So in this part of the storythen you're starting
to get connectedmore with the Anabaptist community.
(21:14):
You're mentioning thingslike hospitality.
I guess you could say. All right.
That would be one way to describe itthat really stuck out to you.
But what was the process itselflike joining the Anabaptists?
As yousaid, you knew there was already sort of,
you know, years before you ever wentto an Anabaptist church that was starting,
but then actually joining process.
(21:35):
What was that like?
I would say that because
of the seven years of
just slow curiosity reading,you know, scripture reading doctrine
and studying everything and, and again,not being set
on, we're going to go be thiswe had no idea we were going to be this.
(21:56):
We were just looking for something thatfit more with the doctrine that we were
convicted of at that time.
So that by the time
we walked in the door again
just to visit this Anabaptist churchthat we'd heard about,
I think I was probably 90,maybe 95% there.
(22:17):
And you were about what?
63%. I would say 75 or 80.
But we werewe had taken our time for so long
and then look at again,just looking for a place
where we would fit in betterwith what we already believed.
But it it made it much easier
as far as what we believed culturally,it was much harder.
(22:41):
There were a lot of things that we andit wasn't necessarily anything biblical,
but just cultural things
that we didn't understand or comprehendor have any framework for at all.
That was really,
I don't know, like getting throwninto ice water or something in some ways.
And we felt like we had so many thingsin common doctrinally,
(23:04):
but yet culturally totally different.
That was hard. That's.
That's it.
That's an important piecethat I don't want to rush past.
I'd like to drill into that a bit more.
As much as you care to share, I don't wantto press on it too much, but it
the doctrine alignment is one thing.
(23:24):
But then there's the cultural element,and it's easier.
It's easy to kind ofcatch one or the other, but not really
notice both if you know what I mean?
Like you were saying, how it's easyfor people to oh, look at the Amish and,
you know, kind of the Amish tourism,whatever you
that's kind of lookingat the cultural side.
Whoa, that's really interesting.They do it this way.
But then there's also the doctrinal side,
you know, and sometimes you have peopleattracted to one of those or the other.
(23:47):
Right.
And so you understand in our casethat there's some doctrinal alignment.
Then the cultural process, ismaybe is a lot.
And I think it's importantthat we're honest about that, you know,
yeah.
Talk me through that process a bit.
As, as much as I'd like to share.
So I don't think we realize,since we're all neighbors
(24:09):
in the United Statesto some point in Canada,
how much of a different cultureit is socially
than it is in.
I mean, in so many wayswe look the same besides dress things.
And so there are lots of little innuendos,is that the right term,
and nuances socially though.
(24:30):
I mean, we're still figuring out,
I mean, I teach music to kindergartenthrough 12th grade.
Sometimes I think to the five year oldsI teach understand their culture
better than I do.
And this is about our 19th year,with the Anabaptists.
That's incredible.
And so and it's just tiny little things,you know, some things are just,
(24:51):
some things that we would say
we'd be told,you know, that's actually inappropriate.
And I'd be like, wow, I feel so bad.
And then sometimes, you know,the Anabaptists would use a phrase
and I'd be like, oh, that'skind of irreverent and it went both ways.
And, and it's just frustrating,you know, to be
in your 30sand 40s and be learning things like that.
(25:12):
And then, I mean, some of it's
lighthearted, like,I remember the first time
somebody said, we're having haystacks.
And I thought, okay, haystacks.
And then I noticed that it lookssort of like Mexican food
because Deana is from Texasand we love good Mexican food.
And so they put all of it in a pile.
And I thought,oh, that's, that's irreverent.
And then
(25:32):
and then they got the ranch dressing outand put it all over and I'm like, okay,
this is wrong.
And so
I'm still not sureif it's supposed to be sort of Mexican
or if it's just a mealwith Mexican ingredients.
I don't know, I've, I've
honestly not figured it out either myself,but I've never thought of that before.
That's actually kind of hilarious.
And so that's a happy
(25:53):
a funny way to look at,you know, culture shock, in a subtle way.
That's interestingthat you use the phrase culture shock.
Yeah. Is that kind of what it felt like.
It Well, it was spurts of culture shock.
It wasn't like suddenly, wow.
Because we had watched it.
I would say that they were very
(26:15):
open in patient and answered ourthey were very approachable.
Yeah.
I wonder sometimes, are we approachable?
You know,and if they were very approachable
they would answer our questions.
They were very accepting of us.
But yeah, I just
I don't know why the food thing comes up,but I the first time
we went through the food line, whatever,I and I looked and I was like, oh.
(26:37):
And I said, Jeff,they make their own little Debbie's.
They were little whoopiepies like wrapped up.
And I was like, oh, they make their ownlittle Debbie's like so that but again,
those things have nothing to dowith doctrine or anything biblical.
They're funny and they're little quirks.
And I think that was importantfor us was to separate, you know?
Okay, I don't make Little Debbie.
(26:58):
I'm sorry, don't make whoopie pies.
But that has nothing to do with what
I believe about these doctrinal issues.
And I think that helped us a lot towas just to, to appreciate the differences
and just say, well,I didn't grow up like that.
My mom didn'tteach me how to make whoopie pies,
but that doesn't mean I'mless of a homemaker or less of a Christian
or something,because it's not a doctrinal issue.
(27:20):
but at the same time, the culture element
can result in a lot of confusionand disorientation.
Right. It was huge.
It was huge.
It was very like you said,especially we were in our 40s, 30s, 40s.
And it was,
you feel like by thatpoint you've got a few things figured out,
and then all of a suddenyou think maybe we don't.
Yeah, yeah.
Again, just it feels, in my mind.
(27:41):
The word it keeps coming up is.
Yeah, disorienting.
You know, you've lived this,
this portion of your life and, like, okay,you know, kind of know how things work.
And then.
So then you're in an environment
where you keep getting hit with randomsurprises, where it's like, whoa,
how did you how did you work through that?
I think we get askednot often, but enough.
What can the Anabaptists do to, make it
(28:05):
so that all the people from our backgroundwill come into the churches and stay?
And I think they want this list of, horrible things that the Anabaptists
are doing to offend the peoplefrom our background that they leave.
And I think we've decidedthat there's nothing like that at all.
It tends to be it.
Well,
it tends to be people who decide that it'sjust not worth the cost, for one thing.
(28:26):
But for this specific conversation,there are misunderstandings.
I think that all that happen,the Anabaptists do
have a social worldview,as do the non Anabaptists.
And so I think sometimeswe mind read each other incorrectly
and and since we're in an Anabaptistsetting,
(28:47):
you know, their mind readingis going to be more valid to some point
because it's the predominating worldviewof the of their church.
And so we're the ones that can feelkind of silly, you know, and be left out.
And so I like animals.
And so, we had some friendsand they almost adopted
as they were so wonderful to uswhen we first came to the Anabaptist.
And so I would just go outand pet their cow and talk to it.
(29:09):
And they told me after, a yearor so they said,
we thought that you were not a Christianbecause you, like, worshiped animals.
And I was I was like,
oh, okay.
Interesting. Right.
And so, you know, they said like,you know, he's to eat or whatever.
And I probably said,you know, don't, don't eat them.
And I mean, anyways.
(29:30):
And so they're like, yeah.
And so things like that,I just think, you know, they're thinking,
wow, this guy really is kind of messed up.
He worships animals.
And I was just like,I just like to pet animals, anyways.
So some things like that, ya’ll arelooking at me like that is kind of weird.
Jeff. Anyways.
Well but I think this is,this is kind of like
(29:51):
a fish in water doesn't, doesn'trealize there's water around it, you know,
like that's how it is with the culturesthat we, that we live in.
Sometimes it's immersive.
And then when someone triesto break into that space,
it can just be complicated,I guess is the word that comes to mind.
I think preconceived notions,
are really not helpful either.
I know one time I sewedsome dresses and I had taken Home EC,
(30:17):
I don't know why or whatever,and I knew how to sew anyway, so I'd sewn
some dresses for my my daughters and I,
and we went to churchthe next day or whatever.
And somebody said to me,oh, you have a new dress.
And I said, yeah.
And they said, well, who sewed it for you?
And I said, I sewed them.
And they were like, oh, you sew?
(30:40):
And it was like,yeah, like my mom sewed my grandmother.
So like, what's the big deal?
You can only sewif you're an Anabaptist or something.
So things like that.
I think we're a little like that
because you, you want to fit inlike from our standpoint,
there are so many similaritiesdoctrinally.
We just want to
(31:00):
feel a part of it.
And I think when we felt singled out like,oh, you're so different,
we didn't necessarily and we felt it some,but it was like, oh,
thanks for drawing attention to the factthat, you know, that
you think I'm really different and weird,even though on that issue I wasn't
that was kind of,But I think it was misunderstandings.
I don't think they meant itto be as hurtful as it was.
(31:23):
I was at a brothers meeting onceand I've lovely people and we were
talking about, passing out turkeys
at, Thanksgiving to the community.
You know, it'sjust to be a blessing as a church.
And one of the people said, well,
do you think the people in the communitywill know how to cook the turkeys?
And I was just thinking, okay,you just said that in front of me.
(31:44):
You know, I came from North Carolina,
and, us hillbillies could make the mostwonderful food in the world.
And every one of us knowshow to make a turkey.
And so some things like that,
it comes across as hurtful, but it wasn't really meant to be that way.
And I don't think they thought
I was even in the roomas a non Anabaptist background person.
So there is that.
(32:05):
But it's so easy.
Just have these assumptions that there'skind of happen, you know what I mean?
And that's.
I can seesome of this as, as definitely a process.
You know, as y'all are entering thisand trying to find your way and I think
back to some of the thingsyou were saying, you know,
we all want to have a place likewe want to feel like we belong somewhere.
(32:26):
It feels like that's that's a themethat's coming through this episode.
Right?
Is you're searching, you know, you've beenin these different church situations
and you're trying to find, okay,where do we belong?
Where can we joina community of believers, where we
where we feel like,yeah, we're a part, you know, we fit here.
And in a way,I think everybody's looking for that.
(32:46):
You know?
So this is maybe backing up a little bit,
but I want to make sure we, we,we catch this here.
What were the main points
that convinced you that you wanted to jointhe Anabaptist?
You were hittingsome of the cultural things,
but it'd be interesting to catchsome of the doctrinal, elements as well.
I think it was.
(33:08):
And I don't know when this becamethe defining point, but I feel like that
in all the things that we've seenand we haven't seen
every situation, obviously, in the world,
that the Anabaptist approachto Christianity
is the most biblicaland that's not to run anyone down.
(33:28):
I don't know what you know.
The underground church in China does.
I have respect for it.
I don't know what indigenous peoples, do
that are evangelized and come to Christ,but I feel like what I know of North
American culture, it's the best exampleI've seen.
Of listening to the teachings of the Bibleand reading them and doing them,
(33:50):
and more specific, the teachings of Christ
and, of the sermon on the Mount.
And it's hard for me to think,and I don't want to be arrogant and say,
well, I will never leave.
We're here by God's grace, and I hopethat we will stay by God's grace,
what is dear to us is, again,
listening to the scriptures and saying,it says to do this.
(34:12):
So we're in a churchthat chooses to do those things.
And the Anabaptists aren't perfect withevery little thing that we do, I get that,
but I've never seen any other groupthat really is this dedicated
to to the words of Christand the commands, the scriptures.
And, it would be hard to go back and say,you know, we still have these beliefs.
(34:34):
Well,I don't want to be negative or anything.
You know, and run anybody down,but I feel like this is the best example.
Yeah.
What would you say.
That's it.
I mean,we have been in different situations
in Anabaptist churcheswhere we've been hurt.
But we if we really believe thisand we do,
(34:57):
we there's no, we're going to bein an Anabaptist church somewhere
because our doctrineand our beliefs are Anabaptist.
And so I think that's been partof the longevity of our journey, is that
we felt like we're going to make it workbecause this is what we believe.
Well and that's another thread too that'scoming through is perseverance right.
(35:20):
Is that is that capture it correctly.
Do you want to sayanything more on on that point
I think I mean to peoplethat would be searching and considering
to consider it carefullyand think about it for a long time
and to jump in and to do it in the end
(35:42):
for obedience to God and Christ,
even if the hurts come because you know,I want to do
what God would have us to do and
maybe not be a fundamentalist,
however do to obeyChrist and His commands.
And so, like Deana said, we have been hurt
(36:03):
and people have...
And I feel like we feel it
more since we don't always feellike we are in as a part of the culture.
I think our children do.
So, yeah, the perseverancefor the sake of following Christ
and being in the community of peoplethat follow Christ,
Perseverance for the right reasons.
That’s what I was about to say.
Yeah, because there's so many bad reasonsthat people could do things.
(36:26):
And I feel like for us it was that waswhat ultimately that's what mattered.
That's more important than relationshipsor being misunderstood or whatever.
It's our beliefs.
So we had we had to
I remember one time we said, well,where else are we going to go?
What are we going to?
We have to stick this out.
Yeah,because we do believe what we believe.
(36:47):
So I think that the the modest clothing
in this separation is a big draw.
I just don't think thatthat would be enough for us to stay.
And I think maybe that'swhy some people join for a while
and then go awayand then the lifestyle as well.
Yeah.
I mean, along with us
going to look at the Amish,we tried farming and a tiny bit
(37:09):
of homesteading and starting businessesin, we failed at all of those.
We did really we’re
unapologetically teachers and It's whatwe absolutely love to do. so.
You don't have a little gardenand all the typical Mennonite things,
you know, and I think I got two tomatoesthis year, right.
(37:30):
Well, okay, I don't feel quite so badbecause I'm like the worst gardener
on the planet.
So I just kind of given up hopethat that would ever happen. So,
you know,and we can kind of chuckle about it, but,
you know, like,that's actually a thing like
the Mennonites have their gardensand the whatever.
And if someone's coming in and like,oh, okay, well, if this is like
how we're supposed to do things and,
and yet maybe you're don't want to do itor don't enjoy it or something like
(37:51):
that could be unnecessary pressurethat isn't really intentional.
It just kind of happens. So
as we pull this package together,
what advice would you give to listenersthat are on their own journey right now
of trying to find what churchshould I plug into what
(38:13):
how do I join a communitythat represents the things that I value
and that I believe God is calling me to,and they're on that journey?
Whichever part of the processthey may be in,
because in your situation,it was quite a process, right?
What do you say to those peoplethey're searching,
and what advice would you give them?
(38:34):
I, I think that we should search
for a churchthat we feel very comfortable in.
And, oftentimes
our people come in,they want to be extremely conservative.
We, we want to be the most conservativeMennonite or Amish that we can.
And we get frustrated with the churches
(38:56):
that we find because we feel likethey're not conservative enough.
And so we want the churchesto bend a little for us.
And then I've also seen our people comeand want to be fairly liberal
and, and so they go to,
a conservative churchand they want it to be more liberal.
Am I saying this? Right?
And so, I think it's importantto find a church that is as close
(39:20):
as your belief system, includingculturally, for lack of a better term.
Is it the right conservativeor the right liberal amount for you?
Because it is frustrating,because I feel like some of the
well-meaning Anabaptistchurches will try to make things
a little bit more liberal,if that's what we are pushing for,
because they want to keep us usually,maybe not much more conservative.
(39:43):
And so, I would keep going.
If the churches are availablein the communities where you are
from to try to find something that suits.
And also
our people can be pretty cynicalabout the Anabaptist.
Nuances and things.
And I think hearts come into play.
I think sometimes for a timewhen we come in
(40:03):
for the first4 or 5 years, we kind of feel
and it's not imposed on anyone,
kind of self-imposed, like we don't haveanything to contribute to the community.
And so I feel like we replacethat kind of not feeling valuable
with some cynicism and Mennonite jokes.
And so, I would just avoid that.
(40:25):
I mean, the Mennonitesdo some very charming things
and they can be teased about occasionally,but I just feel like,
you know, keep the cynicism at bay and see
the beauty of the cultureand the wonderful things.
I would say, first of all,and I think, again, what we're for us
was that we already knew what we believed.
(40:47):
We had read the Bible, we studied,
we weren't following any religionbecause we didn't even know it existed.
Really? Or what knew what it was.
And certainlynot the details about it, but
as we grew
spiritually, we just got to a pointwhere this is what we believe.
And so we were looking for a groupthat believed that.
(41:10):
And we certainly never thoughtit would be,
where we ended upwhen we started, for sure.
But that way if you go in and,oh, maybe we'll do this or they do this,
maybe we'll do this and oh,we don't really believe this,
but everybody else does it,so maybe we'll do it.
That's not going to work.
That's not going to last long term.
It's not sustainable. No.
(41:31):
And I feel like there are thingsobviously that we can oh I haven't
thought about that before or that might besomething really good to add in.
But you have to really for us, we had toreally know what we believed before.
You know I think that helped. So much.
I had a friend, and,
her family
was also from non-Anabaptist background,but we were just talking one time,
(41:53):
and she said thather mother would sit in church sometimes.
And after church was over,
all the ladies would,you know, talk about whatever they were.
And she said her mom didn't really
feel like she fit inor had really, you know, close friends.
And, but her mother had said, well,I might not completely fit
in, you know, ever reallyor feel like I do, but my children, will.
(42:18):
and that was the sacrificethat she was willing to make because her
upbringing and background in education,everything was so different.
But she was willing to do that because shefelt like this will benefit my children.
And I have felt like that sometimes.
But I will say in my church setting now,
I feel accepted and appreciated
(42:39):
for the person I amand whatever God's given me.
And that's that's a good feeling.
I haven't always felt that way, butI do really appreciate where we are now.
Some.
And I think that's an important piecethat you had there
that our churches,when I say our churches.
I mean the, the Anabaptist communityneeds to be aware of
(43:02):
is the
and these are hard thingsto know what to do with.
But it is so easy to miss things
because of some of the cultural dynamicsor different backgrounds.
Sometimes there's there's gaps or we'remissing each other in the communication.
And I don't know what the solutions areto these things, you know,
but hopefully we can at least puta little more awareness out there of this.
(43:25):
Maybe that will make people
more gracious and more, willing to learn from each other, perhaps.
I don't even know, you know, and but perhaps you have something
you want to add to that.
I was just going to say, I think
maybe I'm wrong with the men.
Might have an easier time of itbecause they can talk about their jobs or,
you know, whatever.
And I think sometimes for the women,there are bigger differences.
(43:45):
In some ways, I,I don't know, but I feel like.
I've been in situations
where they all grew up together,they all went to school together.
They all, you know,and I just felt like, I'm so different.
You know, I only kind of merge in here,you know, within the past ten years or so.
And so
(44:07):
then I feel likeI'm not going to interrupt
and say, hey, let's talk about this.
That applies to me, you know?
And so but I do really appreciate
the the women that have reached out to me.
And I don't want to be a ministry project.
I don't want that either.
But but but not like ministry projectbut as in like
someone that reached out and caredabout your life and just had interest in
(44:29):
you and, and made an effort to, to includeyou, is that, a way of saying it or.
I don't know, because I don'tI do not want to be a ministry project.
I think Jeff and I have always felt likewe do not want to be needy,
because sometimespeople from our background
can come in and they're so they need thisand they need that and they want that.
(44:50):
It's like take, take, take.
And Jeff
and I never wanted to be like that.We wanted to give we were,
we were frustrated that we could’ntgive more.
And so I never wanted to feel like that.
But it's just it's nice when somebody
includes you or something being includedI think.
Yeah.
It kind of gives a sense of,okay, I belong here, I fit in here.
(45:11):
and to be honest with you, in the churches
where we would talkabout spiritual things,
I felt a lot more
that those conversationswere easy to be a part of.
That's a that's a that's an interestingand I think important, important piece.
There. Yeah.
Do you have something you'd like to add toto what she was saying.
(45:31):
we didn't talk about it much,but that there was a, not a crisis.
But it was hard for us for 2 or 3 yearsbecause we really felt like
we didn't have anything to give.
And this is our perspective,not necessarily everybody
that would come from the non Mennonitebackground.
We were musicians, you know,we had taught high school bands
and instrumental musicwas a huge part of what we did.
(45:55):
And so in our first Anabaptist church,I'm not sure
if they actually what we're thinking,what we thought they were thinking.
Again, on that mind reading.
We thought you just didn'ttalk much about instruments and playing.
And we, you know, play classical musicand other kinds of music.
And so we really felt for a while
like we really don't say worthlessand we didn't want to appear needy.
(46:17):
Like I said, we tried the gardening.
I tried, some construction and carpentrywas kind of fail.
And, and so we just felt likewe had nothing to give in that particular
setting that we were in was a homeschoolonly setting.
And so there was nota Mennonite school there.
And so it was pretty hardfor us to feel included.
And I do think that's one thing for usas Mennonites could do when people come in
(46:41):
is try hard.
And I think a lot of the churches do
once they're church membersespecially, and get them involved in,
serving the church and in the communities,
you know, helping them to be ableto serve in different ways there.
I remember once there was a
fellowship meal, and we really hadn'tbeen asked to do much.
And, a family we knew walked inand they had the spoons and forks,
(47:04):
the plastic ware.
And Deana said,we haven't even been asked to
provide the churchwith spoons and forks yet.
We're really at the bottom of the totempole.
And so, it's a blessing.
Anything we can do to get peoplewhen they come in involved.
And we're so glad that we've been ableto be for 10 or 12 years in communities
where they have Mennonite schools,and we can serve that way.
(47:26):
And we absolutely love itBecause you're both teachers right.
Yeah. Yeah.
So that, that, that part is neat.
But that againthat kind of that perseverance
to, to kind of get throughsome of those hurdles like that.
That's hard. You know that's hard.
I wanted to say to that what he was saying
about like figure outwhere they can fit in.
(47:46):
Not right away, obviously,but when they become members.
Just what.
Yeah. What are their gifts?
What what can theywhat are they comfortable contributing?
What can they help with?
And again, not as a ministry project.
Well, they can't do anything else.
So we'll let them bring the forks.
But figure out how to help people
plug in using the giftsthat God's given them.
(48:07):
I think again the keyI keep coming back to
or thinking through thisas a, as a process for you.
All right. And this is notsomething happens overnight.
You know, it's not likeyou woke up one day and you know,
found a book on the Amish and you're like,I want to be like that.
And you join the Mennonite churchnext week or so, you know it.
That isn't,
(48:27):
I definitely sounds like that's notthe vibe we're going for.
And that these things take a long time.
And I wonder if some of the challenge isperhaps we try to rush things a bit.
I don't know, I could be way off.
But it can be a bit easyto idealize things,
you know, and just think this is goingto be fantastic, and everything's
gonna be great and wonderful.
And then suddenly the culture shock,as you said, you know, is like the
(48:51):
getting dunked in ice water or somethinglike, whoa, I did not expect this.
I don't know, and I could be wrong.
And every story is different.
But I think with usit was almost the opposite.
It was like, oh dear, lookwhat our beliefs line up with.
It wasn't like, oh yeah, we're going to goplay little House on the Prairie.
It was like, oh dear, now what do we do?
Do we want to do this?
(49:12):
This is, you know, and that again,long term that was a really good thing
because we had to think about do we, do weis there anywhere else we fit in?
Is this this is what we believe.
This is where we fit in the best.
And that's what we took quite a whileto even once we set foot in an Anabaptist
church to think, oh dear, are we,are we gonna really do this thing?
(49:34):
And we took a long time and reada lot and studied a lot and prayed a lot.
The other thing was
that when we first walked in, I know oneof the things we loved was the the music.
We just opened the door and we werewe were late.
Of course,people from our background are late,
so we opened the doorand we just heard this.
We loved music all our lives.
We met in a music group. We've beeninvolved in music all our lives.
(49:54):
We heard this beautiful four part sing.
It was like, that is really neat.
But we also there were some thingswe noticed the first time.
Oh, look at that, look at that.
And we picked up very quicklythat Anabaptists are not perfect.
None of us are. Nobody is.
But I think some people would always sayto us in the beginning like,
oh, you know, we're not perfect.And we'd be like, don't worry.
(50:16):
We noticed, you know, we picked that upin the first five minutes.
You know, we
but again, that
that misconception that you think,we think that you're perfect, like.
No. Okay. Yeah.
I see what you are saying.
Yeah.
This, this is quite,this is quite the story. And
(50:37):
I think hopefully the piecethat people are taking out of this is,
is the, the journey and the process,you know, and going through
you know it takes timeand finding that place to,
to plug in what is, what is thatcommunity of believers that you should be.
You know, I'm saying youthat audience, should join in.
(50:59):
What is God calling each of us to?
I think that's and that'sthat's the question, you know,
and I'm sure there's a lot of variationdepending on who it is and where they are.
And that's the challenge.
And I think y'all,you both had some pretty significant
pieces to add as far as theyou have the doctrinal side, right?
The beliefs,but then also the culture element too.
(51:19):
And, and culture is very complexand it's very hard
to understand all the different dynamicsand it's so multifaceted and so forth.
But hopefully there are some pieces herethat some of the listeners look at.
Oh, yeah. Okay. I should, I should be,I should be aware of that.
You know, so as, as we
bring this story to a close and,and tie the,
(51:40):
the ribbons on the package, so to speak,what are any closing
thoughts, words of adviceyou'd want to give to the listeners?
Anything you want to leave us with?
I honestly don't think there's anything
more important than serving God
you know, he says, if you love me,keep my commandments.
And, you know, I had a friend oncethat said, you know what?
(52:01):
If I found a better way than this,I think I'd go.
And, I mean, I don't want to.
That sounds trivial, but truly,I think we should be in churches
and in communities where that's the goal
is to, to serve God through Christand do what Christ says to do.
And I agree,we just come back to that again and again.
(52:22):
It's obedience.
If we, if we do love God will obey him.
His word in whatever way we feel is right.
we found such joy in that,
and freedom. Wow.
Jeff, Deana, thanks for taking the time tocome on today and share your story.
(52:43):
I really appreciate the opennessand I feel like I learned a lot today.
So thank you.
Thanks for having us.
Thanks for listening to this episodewith Jeff and Dina.
If you found this interesting,you enjoy the testimony that we recorded
with Dean Taylor, which you can findthat linked in the description down below.
Considerjoining our monthly partner program,
(53:04):
which you can joinfor a monthly gift of any amount.
You'll get access to an exclusivepartners, podcast as well as other
bonus content.
Thanks againand we'll see you in the next episode.
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