April 17, 2025 • 35 mins
There are many forms of addiction. What causes it? How can we relate to those suffering from an addiction, and what are tools for dealing with addictions? Michael Hochstetler, a counseling that focuses on helping those trapped in addiction, gives insight into how we as individuals and churches can properly care and help those in addiction.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
One of the things we got to really becareful about is ideologies
or fads or agendas that
leave us feeling like, oh,I know what your problem is, right?
Your problem is you have a demonor your problem is idols of
the heart of your problemis your childhood pain,
or your problemis an undisciplined lifestyle.
Any of those thingspotentially could be a factor.
(00:21):
I'm not dismissing any of thosecategories, but I'm just saying
let's be more curiousabout people's experience
and not put people in boxes.
All right, well, Michael,welcome back to the podcast.
We had youon, I don't know, 4 or 5 years ago.
(00:41):
So it's been a minute and I'mso glad it worked to do this again.
You're a counselor,and you do different teaching
and speaking in churchesand things as well.
And we're to talk aboutkind of a bleak topic,
I guess, something that may bea bit multifaceted, and I'm sure
there's a lot of opinions, butI know you have some experience in this,
(01:02):
in this world. Through your work.
And, I think you'd have somethingto contribute for our audience.
And that's the topic of addiction.
So let's let's just jump
right in and start withwhat are some of the fundamentals,
what are some basics that we should keepin mind about addiction as a whole.
And then if you want to narrow itin a bit from there, and we'll just take
it from there.
(01:23):
Yeah.
So you could think of addictionas a bad habit on steroids if you want
sort of a rough pop culture version.
Yeah.
An addictionis anything that a person does
habitually that overpowers themor is hard to stop.
That would beone way of thinking about it.
I think we should think broadlyabout addiction.
(01:45):
I think, you know, we tend to think of itas it's drugs or alcohol, but,
you know, you can be addicted to work,you can be addicted to gambling,
you can be addicted to video games.
I think some people are addicted to anger.
You can be addicted to the news cycle.
(02:06):
Really, anything that we turn to
to distract from our emotional pain,our distress,
and it becomes,more powerful than we are, takes over.
The human will.
So really, I think
we're looking at something really broad.
(02:27):
You're describing somethingthat sounds almost like coping in a way,
using it to cope with something very muchso, yeah.
Do you want to narrow this in a bit?
Addiction.
This is like a whole familyof of things, of issues.
But, yeah.Do you want to get a bit more specific?
So what I work with primarilyis pornography addiction.
Which sadly is an epidemic
(02:50):
in our circles as well as elsewhere.
yeah.
So this is, this is a,this is a challenge here
for sure with within our world.
That I think that's pretty obvious.
Let's start with some of the roots.
What would you say are causes.
What have you seen in your experienceworking with this.
(03:11):
And so forth.
so first of all I love the wayyou phrase that use the word roots.
Because so oftenwhen people talk about these things really
any kind of emotional strugglewe often talk about the root cause.
I, I've heard this often.
What is the root cause.
We need to find the root cause.
And I think roots pluralis a much better way to think about it.
(03:35):
So a big word that I learned in college,multi causality.
I don't know if that's a wordmost people use or not, but
I think that's really a good wordfor multiple causes.
And I think that's much moreaccurate, much more helpful.
So what are some of the roots.
(03:55):
I think
one of the biggest ones,if there's a taproot,
it's quite possibly emotional distress
that a person has not learned to deal within a healthy way.
The absence of healthy coping skills,you know,
so a very common story is a child,a young person
(04:16):
who grows up in a dysfunctional family
or has been subjected to trauma
or for some reason had chronic anxiety,
whatever it might be, and didn'thave healthy ways to deal with that.
And early on is exposedto, for example, pornography
(04:36):
and turnsto that to escape, to medicate, etc..
Now that's not the only cause.
And that isn't always the story.
Everybody's story is different,but that's a very common story.
and that
could happen for any number of typesof addiction.
I'm assuming totally yeah.
I mean, so one of the things we noticed isthe pattern is so often
(04:59):
the same, whether it's sexual addiction,alcohol addiction,
there are obviously things about each typeof addiction that are unique.
But yeah, same pattern very often.
So when we think about addiction
oftentimes it's really easy to,
oh we hear someone struggling with thator is addicted to this.
(05:22):
Whatever.
And we can sayoh why don't they just stop.
I mean you know it's likecome on to get it together etc., etc..
Any number of phrasesthat are used against people that are,
yeah, whatever the case may be, what'ssome of the issues with that attitude
and maybe what are some better waysof engaging with the situation.
(05:43):
Yeah. So.
I think that's a great opportunity
to introspect,
to think aboutone's own relationship with God.
And and just to ask the question
now, am I really doI really have it so together myself?
Am I really, is there nothing about myself
(06:06):
that I wish was different?
And whatever that thing is thingX in my life.
So maybe thingX isn’t alcohol or pornography, but
whatever my growth areais, why don't I just change, right?
So I think that could be a good placeto start.
Is just personal reflection. Ouch!
The other thing is, I mean, so to reflectbiblically.
(06:30):
Romans chapter seven.
I do the things that I hate.
I don't do the things that I want to do.
I know the law of God. Right?
So often we think that mere agreement,mere notional assent,
if you know what to do, there'ssort of this humanistic idea
that that if people were just educatedbetter.
(06:51):
Right.
If we would justif you would just knew the facts.
And I think history shows that, you know,that's not how it works.
You know, bythe law is the knowledge of sin.
We have that experimentwe were given, you know, God amply
demonstrate that that human natureis, is more flawed than that.
(07:12):
But, yeah,
anyone who struggles to understand,
to appreciatehow difficult this can be really
should just read Romans chapter sevenuntil they have it memorized.
And then, of course,let's read Romans chapter eight.
Let's not stop reading.
Let's, let's hearabout the power of the spirit as well.
(07:32):
But you know, to take it to another level.
People can be overwhelmedby their desires,
by habits, in their bodies, by
nervous systems that have been habituatedto addictive activities.
And we don't have as much controlover ourselves as we often think we do.
(07:53):
And so someone who's been addicted,
why don't they just change,well they're wading upstream?
They have neuralpathways, overwhelming desires.
Withdrawal symptoms.
I remember when I used to work in prison
talking to a man who
he was telling me how he overcamehis addiction to some kind of drug.
(08:15):
I forget what the drug was.
And he said he went to his friendand said, I need to do detox.
Can you put me up?
His friend had a room for him.
He stayed in the room.
His friend locked the door at his requestand he told him, now
don't let me out ofthis room until I'm over it.
And nomatter what I say, don't let me out.
(08:37):
It wasn't long before he was bangingon the door and begging to let him out.
Give me, give me some.
You know, he wanted the drugand cussing at his friend, you know.
But his friend was true to his word.He didn't let him out. And what?
What this guy said wasthe hardest thing was the withdrawal
symptoms, the intense physical pain
(08:58):
that I experiencedbecause my body was craving the drug.
And so now obviously every addictiondoesn't come with that.
But but in many cases,there's incredible backlash
that a person has to deal withfrom their symptoms, from their system.
Right.
Another thing you often hear is
once a person startssaying no to the addiction,
(09:20):
the craving, it just it comes back,it comes back, it comes back.
And and there's this feelingthat I'll never be able to get over this.
I'll never be able to beat thisbecause it just keeps coming back.
Now that's not true.
There is a way to get over it,and there is a way to beat it.
But I just think we need to appreciatethe strong headwinds
that come against the personwho tries to resist the addiction.
(09:42):
you're describing things
that sounds not just,oh just make a decision in your mind.
You're talking biologylike we are more than our minds.
You know it's not like our
our bodies are more than just a carrierto get our mind around it,
you know, so to speak. Right.
And but that's so easy to forget, I guess.
(10:03):
Or maybe forget is the wrong word,but just
you're describing things that are saying,
you know,the body gets a say in this, too, right?
Totally. Yes.
I think that that many Christiansneed to discover that they have bodies.
That's,
(10:24):
that I think you I think you'rea pretty profound turf right there.
Actually, I think you really are ontosomething that maybe we've forgotten.
We've become all ethereal,
and it's just about our spiritsfloating around in you or something.
You know what I mean?
And forget that you have bodyand it has a say.
I guess I don't.
And again, you know,this is out of my wheelhouse.
(10:46):
I maybe I'mspeculating in the wrong territory, but,
I yeah,
I guess how do we keep that in mind?
You know what I mean?
Like,how do we remember this when dealing,
you know, interacting with someonewho is going through this process
or has this addictionthat maybe they want to break it and even,
(11:08):
But it's helpful to hear their stories,hearing stories.
I mean, like,the guy was just talking about.
The more we know about addiction,the more we have personal connections
with people who've experienced addiction.
There are memoirs out there, you know,
I think that helps a lot.
(11:28):
It helps to make it vivid.
It helps to make it,to bring it closer to home.
And so right with that then how can we
those watching listening to this,how can they be
gracious and caring towardsthose people that they know that
that may be struggling with
addiction or, or maybe they're justsomeone they meet on the street.
(11:51):
Whatever.
How can we develop the natural response
of being graciousand caring for those people?
Yeah.
I mean,I think, again, being educated on it,
Finding out,
you know, why addiction is so difficult
and, and,
(12:14):
the burdens that people carry,
Yeah.
You know, I mean, so,again, coming back to the question,
why don't they just change, you know,
the person who tries to do right and fails
because many of these people dotry, right?
And I think that's somethingthat we really need to keep in mind
(12:35):
now, there are peoplewho just accept their addiction.
For sure.
In my context as a counselor, I'm workingwith people who want to change, right?
Otherwise they wouldn't be there.
Or they they don't last.
If they're the onesthey don't want to change.
So that's my context.
These are people that it's
like trying to run a marathonwith 100 pounds on your back, right?
(12:57):
These people are carryinga really heavy weight.
And sometimes a person with an addiction
makes far more effort to do right
before they eventually fallthan maybe you or I do.
And how does God evaluate that?
You know, whowho is really living more righteously
(13:19):
in God's eyes?
I think those are helpful things
to keep in mind
so let's spin it around then.
So we're just talking about
how people could be more graciousand caring towards those they encounter.
That you know,are suffering from addiction.
Let's flip it around.
What if there's someone listening to thisor whoever it is that's listening
(13:42):
to this, who is strugglingwith an addiction of some kind?
What aresome steps to recovery and healing.
So it depends so muchon, you know, what the addiction is
and what, what level of addictionwe're talking about.
Groups are really helpfulgroups like Alcoholics Anonymous
or Celebrate Recovery.
There are specialized sexual addictionfor any kind of addiction.
(14:08):
There's a group out there somewhere.
Now obviously you have to to weighthe merits of the individual group
and and is it really Christianand all that?
But support groups are really helpful.
Accountability can be really helpfulif it's done well.
I think one of the biggest thingsis finding
(14:28):
healthy ways to copewith whatever you're medicating.
talk about that a bit more. Yeah.
Because I think that's a we were goingback to kind of the roots thing.
Yeah.
And that was a piecethat definitely came up and so
how can we have the self-awarenessto identify that.
That's actually, you know,that's a part of the puzzle perhaps.
(14:49):
Yeah.I like to hear you speak more on that.
yeah.
Yeah.
I think that people who strugglewith addiction, some part of them.
So it's unconscious or, or it's not,
they know what's true notionally.
But some part of the personreally feels deep down
(15:10):
that this is the only way to cope.
Okay.
Yeah.
Now, I know, you know,that's not rational.
But again,we aren't rational as human beings, right?
That's why we struggle as much as we do.
That's why we don't get along.
That'swhy so many things are the way they are,
because we're not rationalas human beings.
(15:30):
And we have so many irrational processes
at work inside of us many times, right.
But there is some part of the personthat really does feel
sincerelythat this is the only way to cope.
So I thinkone of the things we're trying to do
is we're trying to make the ideaof healthy coping credible,
(15:51):
and for that to happen,you need experience.
So it helps to hear it.
It helps to know it,but it really helps to experience it.
So when you have the experience of,for example, being able to calm
your anxiety without alcohol,
without smoking, without whatever it is,
the trick is the difficulty
(16:13):
is healthy ways of coping take longer.
You don't get the instantgratification right.
You don't have those chemicalscoursing through your veins.
You don't have the right. It takes longer.
It takes more persistence.
It takes, you know, it's you're buildinga habit and that's one of the barriers.
That'sone of the things that makes it difficult.
(16:36):
That that's
a that's a significant oneI think what you just said there.
And then also you were sayinghow you say an addiction
or not, not the proper way of coping.
There's an instant chemical response.
Right.
That'sa, that's a real piece that I don't know
that that much about it,
but having read a little bit and hearingthat piece is like, oh, there's actually a
(17:00):
there's some chemical processesgoing on in the brain here that I, oh,
I didn't know that, you know, and whoa,that, that like you said, wading upstream,
you know, you're going or running with the100 pounds on your back.
Those things make it a lot harder. Right.
Because because your body is saying,oh, if I do this, I'll get this instant
chemical, dump in the brain or whatever.
(17:21):
You know, again,I don't know all the exact science,
but there's lots of researchon this, right?
The Dopamine hit. Yeah.There you go. Yeah.
Which, unfortunately, things like socialmedia are intentionally engineered
to hijack that part of the brain,which maybe we shouldn't
get in a social media addiction,but that's. That's a thing, I.
I think it needs to be named.That is a thing. Yeah.
(17:42):
And and this isn't likesome wacky conspiracy anti Facebook rant.
I mean, this isthis is well documented, you know.
Social media companies hire,you know, neuroscientists
and, and engineers that study this stuffand figure out how to make the product
give you the maximum dopamine hitif you use their, their app, whatever.
we've really got to think about thiswith our children.
(18:02):
Right.
What if we, if you just hand the iPhoneto a little child, you're setting them up
to potentially become a social mediaaddict or like a dopamine hit addict.
Really? I mean.
Yeah.
And dopamine being that nice, warm,fuzzy feeling when, you know,
you post a photo to Instagram or somethingand the likes start coming through
and you go, wow, you know,all these people like me and whatever.
(18:23):
And that, that's that,
that's a that can get its hooks in you
because again, the,the feel good, chemical or whatever
you're feeling inside you,all that warm, fuzzy feeling it's in you.
Like you were saying, it's an instant hit.
So how, like, intellectually,we may know all this, right?
(18:44):
But then how how do you break this cycle
that we may have developed with, again,whatever this addiction may be?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So you know hanging in therewith a healthy coping hanging in there
until you start to see the benefit,until you start to experience the benefit.
So for example anxiety.
(19:06):
And just to backtrackreally briefly to the roots,
many, many,many of the people that I worked with
who are addicted have chronic anxiety.
So that's somethingto really be curious about.
Not everyone, but many times,
so untreatedanxiety often is a driver of addiction.
(19:26):
Question on that.
Just a touch on that a bit.
Is this anxietythat they are aware that they have
or is this unconscious like it's therebut they actually haven't identified.
often it's unidentified.
I mean, I mean, they sort of know,they may not use that word for it.
I think there's a lot of anxietythat we don't realize we carry.
Yeah.
(19:47):
on, and the reason why I wanted to askthat is I'm thinking,
oh, someone listening as.
Oh, well,I don't have, you know, anxiety. I'm fine.
You know, like, I don't have that problem.
But you're saying that actually,sometimes they don't
even realize thatthat the anxiety is part of the roots.
Yeah.
Yeah. It's not just panic attacks.
It's it's not just worried.
(20:08):
We carry a lot of tension in our bodies.
Many timeswe don't notice as we're too busy.
We're just going about our daily lifeand we're not stopping
to, again, we don't realize thatwe have bodies, right?
We don't realize what's going on.
The physical tension that we carry,
or the mental strain is in the back,in the mind.
That can also be a part of this too.Right.
(20:30):
Just in general mental fatigueor strain or stress.
If you're,if you're having that because oh you're,
you're working long hours whatever.
And then you may be looking forhow do I cope with that.
Right.
Could that not be another way.
Someone could get into addiction.
Yeah. Yeah.
I think many times what happens isit's not like the person is consciously
(20:51):
thinking, oh, I'm under stress,how can I medicate?
Oh, I'll look at pornography.
Right.
It's you know, but but they're primed forthat because of this unrelieved stress.
And by ignoring stress,ignoring anxiety, ignoring
emotional pain,ignoring anger, whatever it is.
Because it isn't, noticed because itisn't named, because it isn't dealt with.
(21:13):
A person is much more vulnerable than,
to deal with it the wrong way.
Yeah.
This.
Wow. Yeah.
This is, this is a lot to to think aboutI mean it's
I think the piece that I'm
thinking at the momentis everyone listening to this,
(21:35):
you know, can easilyfind cases of addiction around them.
It's not hard to seewhether that be a way.
We mentioned, you know, social media or,you know, alcohol or whatever.
Or walk the streets of any city you'regoing to see drug addiction or something.
What are
what are ways people can help?
(21:59):
Which I know is kind of broad obviouslybecause every situation is different.
There's all these different types.
But, but what are some,some basics that we can keep in mind.
So getting the balance of confrontation
and care, getting that balance right.
So there is a place for confrontationI mean for example a family intervention.
(22:21):
Right.
Where, where the family where you sit downand say, look, you have a problem.
We really need to get you help.Will you please?
You know, I'mmaking an appeal to a family member.
We have to tell the truth to people.
Sometimes we have to tell hard truths.
So there is that side of it.
I think we have to really becareful, though, about over
(22:41):
relying on confrontation.
So many people who are addicted
know that they have a problem, right?
And they feel very badly about themselves,whether they admit it or not.
And one of the things that we can dois unintentionally trigger
or exacerbate their shame.
(23:02):
people who deal with chronic shamedon't necessarily admit it,
they don't necessarily show it right.
That doesn't mean tiptoeing around people,but we really need to be aware.
People often feel
very badly about themselvesand feel very badly about the addiction.
Oh yeah.
Because could could not a lot of usget start getting lumped in with things
like self-worth identity like very much soand so.
(23:27):
You might use the word cycle.
And so in many ways that that isthe cycle.
A person feels badly about themselves,
that makes their emotional distress worse.
They medicate thatthrough an addictive activity
that makes them feel worse about them.
And around and around it goes.
And that kind of comes backto one of the earlier things
that, that you had answered, where
(23:48):
if we have this attitude of just like,well, why don't you just stop doing that?
You know, or confronting something prettyjust like, well, just don't do that.
Yes. You may actually push itthe wrong direction.
Yeah.
That's a bit scary or scary or something.
We really should keep that in mind.
Because, I mean, that's
I would hope that's the last thingsomeone will want to do.
(24:09):
Right.
You don't want to make it worse.
So gracious truth telling.
Accountabilitydepending on what your role is.
So it's like the trauma thingthat we talked about before
in the other interview.
It depends on what your role is.
It depends on what your lane is.
I would really encourage, you know,
(24:29):
stick with this person for the long haul.
Or in other words,
are you willing to hang in thereand be a support to them
if it takes a long time for themto overcome their addiction?
You got to pace yourself.
This is a marathon. It's not a sprint.
And many timeswhat we do is we want to fix people.
(24:50):
We want them to get better all at once.
We want them to make the choiceswe want them to make.
We become super involved.
And if they don't change,then we get frustrated and we drop them.
And so what you've really gotto ask yourself if you're trying to help
someone with an addiction,am I going to walk with this person,
even if it takes months?
Be honest aboutmaybe the level of patience that you have.
(25:13):
Is that a way of saying it? Yes.
Yeah. Yeah. Because I think that is.
Well, this could almost be
classified as another addiction,the addiction of hurry, like, you know.
And so if the solution doesn't happenright away, we can kind of like.
Oh, well, okay.
Just, you know, And if you think about it hurry.
(25:34):
And the inability to toleratedistress is a driver of addiction.
Right.
That's another one of the drivers.
So there's a certain irony about that.
I have not thought of that before.
we want people to tolerate their distress.
That doesn'tmean accept the dysfunction in their life,
but to tolerate emotional painin small doses, right?
(25:55):
To be able to sit with loneliness,
to be able to sit with anger,to be able to sit with anxiety
without having to medicate immediately.
Right, without having to distract from it.
And when you could have the experienceof facing that thing
and sitting with that thing calmly,
in a grounded kind of way,
(26:18):
that canreally break the power of the addiction,
because then you learnthat I don't have to have this right.
And it's not just a notion now.
It's an experience you're having.
The experience of being able to tolerate
the thing that you're that you'remedicating with your addiction.
You don't know itas just an intellectual thing.
Well I know this.
(26:39):
You likeyou said you've actually experienced it
and can slowly start remapping it.
I guess, you know.
So helping people sit with their distress
in whatever way is appropriateto your role in your, in their life.
So this may take usin a different direction.
That might not be applicablebut I feel like I should ask it.
(26:59):
There's this classic Christian
doctrinebelief that we have called temperance.
Does temperance play into this temperance,patience, etc., etc..
Or am I off off the rails a bit?
Oh, totally.
I mean self-control, yes.
One of the fruits of the spirit.
Totally.
(27:20):
Yeah, yeah, Perhaps,
perhaps we could do with more,
awareness and and engagementwith the concept of temperance.
Perhaps.
I think, especially in our society.
I mean,
we don't have to wait for anything, right?
(27:42):
I mean, Okayso, we're filming this in Lancaster.
And last night,we realized there was this piece of gear
we needed for doing the doingthe interviews, and we really needed it.
So I quick go on Amazon,and lo and behold,
I can have itdelivered by the next morning.
And I'm just like,it's it's 930 at night or whatever it was.
And it'll be here in the morning.
(28:02):
I don't even have to wait like that.
Just kind of blew my mind.
And it felt like that's such a snapshotof American or Western society.
But anyways, what what does that do?
Yeah. What does that do to our souls?
Yeah.
And I mean, look, I use Amazon,I use the internet.
I mean, yeah, my point is, is not thatthese things are bad, obviously,
(28:24):
but I think we really need to think aboutwhat kinds of spiritual disciplines
help us not to becaught up in the spirit of the age.
So things like a temporary internet fast,for example,
or an Amazon fast
or one or whatever it might be.
Yeah. I think that there's.
(28:47):
Here's another analogy.
What kind of soil does addiction grow in?
And I think it grows quite well
in the soil of the consumer lifestyle.
So for example,I mean, this isn't consumerism per se, but
one of the things I've noticedwith men who struggle with pornography is
oftentimestheir weakest moment is when they're just
(29:09):
scrolling the internet on their phoneand they're not looking at anything bad.
It might be very good content, but that'sa slippery slope moment for them, right?
They're already in the hand of that zoneof checking out,
just by kind of mindless internet use.
Right.
feel like that's an important pieceright there.
(29:30):
And this is somethingthat we're all dealing with this.
Right.
We're all dealing with we in the West
the effects of prosperity, the informationexplosion, the consumer lifestyle.
Right. We're all trying to work this out.
I'm sure we all have growth areas in that.
And so
that that's another thing that I thinkcan help us
(29:50):
to have compassion for addiction,for people with addiction.
Right.
Is that we all struggle with
medicating or distractingin the wrong way.
Again I feels like thatthat was an important piece there as well
because it's pretty easyto look at someone who's addicted to
(30:11):
whatever sufferingfrom some type of addiction and say oh
why don't they just stop thatwithout realizing the hypocrisy of that
when you know you yourself may be dealingwith a form of addiction in your own life
that you hadn't even thought of,but it's, you know, you actually have
a slight addiction to mindlessly scrollingsocial media, you know, endlessly
(30:32):
or so, like, I mean, the data on that, bythe way, for America is is insane.
Like how much time is spent mindlesslyscrolling social media, for example?
And yet you may have that, but
then point your finger at someone else,you know, and say, oh, they're addicted.
I guess that kind of comes back
to one of the things we had been sayingpreviously is like, how do we be gracious?
(30:54):
Like, and, well, I guesshumility would go right along with that.
You know,
Another thing is curiosity.
So okayhow did this person get to where they are.
They didn't wake up one dayand say I'm going to be addicted.
I'm going to look at pornographyI want to drink.
What's the story behind.
And you know, not to use thatto make excuses for sinful behavior.
(31:16):
But what's the story behind this person'sstruggle?
Can we ask more questions?
And this would apply to any struggle,right.
Trauma, mental health, addiction.
I think that's a really good point.
Yeah.
one of the things we got to really be
careful aboutis ideologies or fads or agendas that
(31:39):
leave us
feeling like, oh, I know what your problemis, right?
Your problem is you have a demonor your problem is idols of
the heart of your problemis your childhood pain,
or your problemis an undisciplined lifestyle.
Any of those thingspotentially could be a factor.
I'm not dismissing any of thosecategories, but I'm just saying
let's be more curious about people'sexperience and not put people in boxes.
(32:04):
it's so easy to put people in boxes.
I guess that's I guess that's justa human thing that we do to each other.
I don't know when I kind of know where
where we want to pegsomebody or something.
Yeah.
Yeah, well, it makes it easier for us.
That's that's a good point.
Yeah. Yeah.
yeah.
(32:24):
And, I mean, you have to have waysof thinking about things.
You have to have hooks to hang things on.
We need to simplify our thoughts. And so
certainly it's understandable.
that that does make sense.
Yeah.
So to back it up a little bit.
Addiction is kind of a bleak topic.
And and you know.
(32:46):
Yeah. And
yeah we hear some things on,on the recovery process and, and so forth.
There's a lot more to this.
There's obviously, an enormous amountof work has been done in this sector.
Which is which is good.
But as we kind of pull backand look at the whole package
(33:06):
that we've went through in this,in this podcast,
what is somethingyou'd like to leave our audience with?
What's maybe a piece of adviceor something you think would be helpful?
Yeah.
Some principles to keepin mind as we go from here.
Two things.
One, people can change.
People can change.
(33:27):
They can changebecause God has put incredible
tools and resources into his creation.
And two,because of the power of his spirit.
And that's what the gospel is all about.
One of the questions I hear a lot is,
or is it possible to change, for example,pornography.
Can you break a pornography habit?
Yes, the answer is yes.
(33:48):
So that's the first thing.
The second thing is
receive God's love,
receive God'scompassion, receive God's acceptance.
And sometimes it's a severe mercy.
And sometimes there's God's chastisementand all that.
But people need to know deep down
that they're loved by God.
(34:10):
And people who hate themselves
because of their addictionfind it so much harder to move forward.
And the turning point thatI have seen again and again for people is
when they can receive God's love,even while they are still struggling.
Those are the ones who so often beginto move forward.
Don't waittill you've conquered your addiction
(34:32):
to let God love on you.
I think that is.
That is a powerful piece to end
this episode with that.
Wow, you've shared a lot of reallyinteresting and helpful pieces today.
(34:53):
And yeah, just thank you for the workthat you've done in this area
and reminding usthat it is possible to change.
And, there are ways that we can helpand yeah,
you're giving us a lot to think about.
So I appreciate you taking the timetoday, Michael, to come and share with us.
It's good to be here.
(35:15):
Thanks for listening to this episode.
If you found this interesting,you should check out the other interview
we did with Michael a few years back.
And you can find thatlinked in the description down below.
We also regularly publish essaysby Anabaptist thinkers,
which you can find on our websiteor has its own podcast.
Consider leaving a like and a reviewas it helps more people
find what we're doing hereat Anabaptist Perspectives.
(35:37):
Thanks again for listening,and we'll see you in the next episode.
One of the things we got to really becareful about is ideologies
or fads or agendas that
leave us feeling like, oh,I know what your problem is, right?
Your problem is you have a demonor your problem is idols of
the heart of your problemis your childhood pain,
or your problemis an undisciplined lifestyle.
Any of those thingspotentially could be a factor.
(00:21):
I'm not dismissing any of thosecategories, but I'm just saying
let's be more curiousabout people's experience
and not put people in boxes.
All right, well, Michael,welcome back to the podcast.
We had youon, I don't know, 4 or 5 years ago.
(00:41):
So it's been a minute and I'mso glad it worked to do this again.
You're a counselor,and you do different teaching
and speaking in churchesand things as well.
And we're to talk aboutkind of a bleak topic,
I guess, something that may bea bit multifaceted, and I'm sure
there's a lot of opinions, butI know you have some experience in this,
(01:02):
in this world. Through your work.
And, I think you'd have somethingto contribute for our audience.
And that's the topic of addiction.
So let's let's just jump
right in and start withwhat are some of the fundamentals,
what are some basics that we should keepin mind about addiction as a whole.
And then if you want to narrow itin a bit from there, and we'll just take
it from there.
(01:23):
Yeah.
So you could think of addictionas a bad habit on steroids if you want
sort of a rough pop culture version.
Yeah.
An addictionis anything that a person does
habitually that overpowers themor is hard to stop.
That would beone way of thinking about it.
I think we should think broadlyabout addiction.
(01:45):
I think, you know, we tend to think of itas it's drugs or alcohol, but,
you know, you can be addicted to work,you can be addicted to gambling,
you can be addicted to video games.
I think some people are addicted to anger.
You can be addicted to the news cycle.
(02:06):
Really, anything that we turn to
to distract from our emotional pain,our distress,
and it becomes,more powerful than we are, takes over.
The human will.
So really, I think
we're looking at something really broad.
(02:27):
You're describing somethingthat sounds almost like coping in a way,
using it to cope with something very muchso, yeah.
Do you want to narrow this in a bit?
Addiction.
This is like a whole familyof of things, of issues.
But, yeah.Do you want to get a bit more specific?
So what I work with primarilyis pornography addiction.
Which sadly is an epidemic
(02:50):
in our circles as well as elsewhere.
yeah.
So this is, this is a,this is a challenge here
for sure with within our world.
That I think that's pretty obvious.
Let's start with some of the roots.
What would you say are causes.
What have you seen in your experienceworking with this.
(03:11):
And so forth.
so first of all I love the wayyou phrase that use the word roots.
Because so oftenwhen people talk about these things really
any kind of emotional strugglewe often talk about the root cause.
I, I've heard this often.
What is the root cause.
We need to find the root cause.
And I think roots pluralis a much better way to think about it.
(03:35):
So a big word that I learned in college,multi causality.
I don't know if that's a wordmost people use or not, but
I think that's really a good wordfor multiple causes.
And I think that's much moreaccurate, much more helpful.
So what are some of the roots.
(03:55):
I think
one of the biggest ones,if there's a taproot,
it's quite possibly emotional distress
that a person has not learned to deal within a healthy way.
The absence of healthy coping skills,you know,
so a very common story is a child,a young person
(04:16):
who grows up in a dysfunctional family
or has been subjected to trauma
or for some reason had chronic anxiety,
whatever it might be, and didn'thave healthy ways to deal with that.
And early on is exposedto, for example, pornography
(04:36):
and turnsto that to escape, to medicate, etc..
Now that's not the only cause.
And that isn't always the story.
Everybody's story is different,but that's a very common story.
and that
could happen for any number of typesof addiction.
I'm assuming totally yeah.
I mean, so one of the things we noticed isthe pattern is so often
(04:59):
the same, whether it's sexual addiction,alcohol addiction,
there are obviously things about each typeof addiction that are unique.
But yeah, same pattern very often.
So when we think about addiction
oftentimes it's really easy to,
oh we hear someone struggling with thator is addicted to this.
(05:22):
Whatever.
And we can sayoh why don't they just stop.
I mean you know it's likecome on to get it together etc., etc..
Any number of phrasesthat are used against people that are,
yeah, whatever the case may be, what'ssome of the issues with that attitude
and maybe what are some better waysof engaging with the situation.
(05:43):
Yeah. So.
I think that's a great opportunity
to introspect,
to think aboutone's own relationship with God.
And and just to ask the question
now, am I really doI really have it so together myself?
Am I really, is there nothing about myself
(06:06):
that I wish was different?
And whatever that thing is thingX in my life.
So maybe thingX isn’t alcohol or pornography, but
whatever my growth areais, why don't I just change, right?
So I think that could be a good placeto start.
Is just personal reflection. Ouch!
The other thing is, I mean, so to reflectbiblically.
(06:30):
Romans chapter seven.
I do the things that I hate.
I don't do the things that I want to do.
I know the law of God. Right?
So often we think that mere agreement,mere notional assent,
if you know what to do, there'ssort of this humanistic idea
that that if people were just educatedbetter.
(06:51):
Right.
If we would justif you would just knew the facts.
And I think history shows that, you know,that's not how it works.
You know, bythe law is the knowledge of sin.
We have that experimentwe were given, you know, God amply
demonstrate that that human natureis, is more flawed than that.
(07:12):
But, yeah,
anyone who struggles to understand,
to appreciatehow difficult this can be really
should just read Romans chapter sevenuntil they have it memorized.
And then, of course,let's read Romans chapter eight.
Let's not stop reading.
Let's, let's hearabout the power of the spirit as well.
(07:32):
But you know, to take it to another level.
People can be overwhelmedby their desires,
by habits, in their bodies, by
nervous systems that have been habituatedto addictive activities.
And we don't have as much controlover ourselves as we often think we do.
(07:53):
And so someone who's been addicted,
why don't they just change,well they're wading upstream?
They have neuralpathways, overwhelming desires.
Withdrawal symptoms.
I remember when I used to work in prison
talking to a man who
he was telling me how he overcamehis addiction to some kind of drug.
(08:15):
I forget what the drug was.
And he said he went to his friendand said, I need to do detox.
Can you put me up?
His friend had a room for him.
He stayed in the room.
His friend locked the door at his requestand he told him, now
don't let me out ofthis room until I'm over it.
And nomatter what I say, don't let me out.
(08:37):
It wasn't long before he was bangingon the door and begging to let him out.
Give me, give me some.
You know, he wanted the drugand cussing at his friend, you know.
But his friend was true to his word.He didn't let him out. And what?
What this guy said wasthe hardest thing was the withdrawal
symptoms, the intense physical pain
(08:58):
that I experiencedbecause my body was craving the drug.
And so now obviously every addictiondoesn't come with that.
But but in many cases,there's incredible backlash
that a person has to deal withfrom their symptoms, from their system.
Right.
Another thing you often hear is
once a person startssaying no to the addiction,
(09:20):
the craving, it just it comes back,it comes back, it comes back.
And and there's this feelingthat I'll never be able to get over this.
I'll never be able to beat thisbecause it just keeps coming back.
Now that's not true.
There is a way to get over it,and there is a way to beat it.
But I just think we need to appreciatethe strong headwinds
that come against the personwho tries to resist the addiction.
(09:42):
you're describing things
that sounds not just,oh just make a decision in your mind.
You're talking biologylike we are more than our minds.
You know it's not like our
our bodies are more than just a carrierto get our mind around it,
you know, so to speak. Right.
And but that's so easy to forget, I guess.
(10:03):
Or maybe forget is the wrong word,but just
you're describing things that are saying,
you know,the body gets a say in this, too, right?
Totally. Yes.
I think that that many Christiansneed to discover that they have bodies.
That's,
(10:24):
that I think you I think you'rea pretty profound turf right there.
Actually, I think you really are ontosomething that maybe we've forgotten.
We've become all ethereal,
and it's just about our spiritsfloating around in you or something.
You know what I mean?
And forget that you have bodyand it has a say.
I guess I don't.
And again, you know,this is out of my wheelhouse.
(10:46):
I maybe I'mspeculating in the wrong territory, but,
I yeah,
I guess how do we keep that in mind?
You know what I mean?
Like,how do we remember this when dealing,
you know, interacting with someonewho is going through this process
or has this addictionthat maybe they want to break it and even,
(11:08):
But it's helpful to hear their stories,hearing stories.
I mean, like,the guy was just talking about.
The more we know about addiction,the more we have personal connections
with people who've experienced addiction.
There are memoirs out there, you know,
I think that helps a lot.
(11:28):
It helps to make it vivid.
It helps to make it,to bring it closer to home.
And so right with that then how can we
those watching listening to this,how can they be
gracious and caring towardsthose people that they know that
that may be struggling with
addiction or, or maybe they're justsomeone they meet on the street.
(11:51):
Whatever.
How can we develop the natural response
of being graciousand caring for those people?
Yeah.
I mean,I think, again, being educated on it,
Finding out,
you know, why addiction is so difficult
and, and,
(12:14):
the burdens that people carry,
Yeah.
You know, I mean, so,again, coming back to the question,
why don't they just change, you know,
the person who tries to do right and fails
because many of these people dotry, right?
And I think that's somethingthat we really need to keep in mind
(12:35):
now, there are peoplewho just accept their addiction.
For sure.
In my context as a counselor, I'm workingwith people who want to change, right?
Otherwise they wouldn't be there.
Or they they don't last.
If they're the onesthey don't want to change.
So that's my context.
These are people that it's
like trying to run a marathonwith 100 pounds on your back, right?
(12:57):
These people are carryinga really heavy weight.
And sometimes a person with an addiction
makes far more effort to do right
before they eventually fallthan maybe you or I do.
And how does God evaluate that?
You know, whowho is really living more righteously
(13:19):
in God's eyes?
I think those are helpful things
to keep in mind
so let's spin it around then.
So we're just talking about
how people could be more graciousand caring towards those they encounter.
That you know,are suffering from addiction.
Let's flip it around.
What if there's someone listening to thisor whoever it is that's listening
(13:42):
to this, who is strugglingwith an addiction of some kind?
What aresome steps to recovery and healing.
So it depends so muchon, you know, what the addiction is
and what, what level of addictionwe're talking about.
Groups are really helpfulgroups like Alcoholics Anonymous
or Celebrate Recovery.
There are specialized sexual addictionfor any kind of addiction.
(14:08):
There's a group out there somewhere.
Now obviously you have to to weighthe merits of the individual group
and and is it really Christianand all that?
But support groups are really helpful.
Accountability can be really helpfulif it's done well.
I think one of the biggest thingsis finding
(14:28):
healthy ways to copewith whatever you're medicating.
talk about that a bit more. Yeah.
Because I think that's a we were goingback to kind of the roots thing.
Yeah.
And that was a piecethat definitely came up and so
how can we have the self-awarenessto identify that.
That's actually, you know,that's a part of the puzzle perhaps.
(14:49):
Yeah.I like to hear you speak more on that.
yeah.
Yeah.
I think that people who strugglewith addiction, some part of them.
So it's unconscious or, or it's not,
they know what's true notionally.
But some part of the personreally feels deep down
(15:10):
that this is the only way to cope.
Okay.
Yeah.
Now, I know, you know,that's not rational.
But again,we aren't rational as human beings, right?
That's why we struggle as much as we do.
That's why we don't get along.
That'swhy so many things are the way they are,
because we're not rationalas human beings.
(15:30):
And we have so many irrational processes
at work inside of us many times, right.
But there is some part of the personthat really does feel
sincerelythat this is the only way to cope.
So I thinkone of the things we're trying to do
is we're trying to make the ideaof healthy coping credible,
(15:51):
and for that to happen,you need experience.
So it helps to hear it.
It helps to know it,but it really helps to experience it.
So when you have the experience of,for example, being able to calm
your anxiety without alcohol,
without smoking, without whatever it is,
the trick is the difficulty
(16:13):
is healthy ways of coping take longer.
You don't get the instantgratification right.
You don't have those chemicalscoursing through your veins.
You don't have the right. It takes longer.
It takes more persistence.
It takes, you know, it's you're buildinga habit and that's one of the barriers.
That'sone of the things that makes it difficult.
(16:36):
That that's
a that's a significant oneI think what you just said there.
And then also you were sayinghow you say an addiction
or not, not the proper way of coping.
There's an instant chemical response.
Right.
That'sa, that's a real piece that I don't know
that that much about it,
but having read a little bit and hearingthat piece is like, oh, there's actually a
(17:00):
there's some chemical processesgoing on in the brain here that I, oh,
I didn't know that, you know, and whoa,that, that like you said, wading upstream,
you know, you're going or running with the100 pounds on your back.
Those things make it a lot harder. Right.
Because because your body is saying,oh, if I do this, I'll get this instant
chemical, dump in the brain or whatever.
(17:21):
You know, again,I don't know all the exact science,
but there's lots of researchon this, right?
The Dopamine hit. Yeah.There you go. Yeah.
Which, unfortunately, things like socialmedia are intentionally engineered
to hijack that part of the brain,which maybe we shouldn't
get in a social media addiction,but that's. That's a thing, I.
I think it needs to be named.That is a thing. Yeah.
(17:42):
And and this isn't likesome wacky conspiracy anti Facebook rant.
I mean, this isthis is well documented, you know.
Social media companies hire,you know, neuroscientists
and, and engineers that study this stuffand figure out how to make the product
give you the maximum dopamine hitif you use their, their app, whatever.
we've really got to think about thiswith our children.
(18:02):
Right.
What if we, if you just hand the iPhoneto a little child, you're setting them up
to potentially become a social mediaaddict or like a dopamine hit addict.
Really? I mean.
Yeah.
And dopamine being that nice, warm,fuzzy feeling when, you know,
you post a photo to Instagram or somethingand the likes start coming through
and you go, wow, you know,all these people like me and whatever.
(18:23):
And that, that's that,
that's a that can get its hooks in you
because again, the,the feel good, chemical or whatever
you're feeling inside you,all that warm, fuzzy feeling it's in you.
Like you were saying, it's an instant hit.
So how, like, intellectually,we may know all this, right?
(18:44):
But then how how do you break this cycle
that we may have developed with, again,whatever this addiction may be?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So you know hanging in therewith a healthy coping hanging in there
until you start to see the benefit,until you start to experience the benefit.
So for example anxiety.
(19:06):
And just to backtrackreally briefly to the roots,
many, many,many of the people that I worked with
who are addicted have chronic anxiety.
So that's somethingto really be curious about.
Not everyone, but many times,
so untreatedanxiety often is a driver of addiction.
(19:26):
Question on that.
Just a touch on that a bit.
Is this anxietythat they are aware that they have
or is this unconscious like it's therebut they actually haven't identified.
often it's unidentified.
I mean, I mean, they sort of know,they may not use that word for it.
I think there's a lot of anxietythat we don't realize we carry.
Yeah.
(19:47):
on, and the reason why I wanted to askthat is I'm thinking,
oh, someone listening as.
Oh, well,I don't have, you know, anxiety. I'm fine.
You know, like, I don't have that problem.
But you're saying that actually,sometimes they don't
even realize thatthat the anxiety is part of the roots.
Yeah.
Yeah. It's not just panic attacks.
It's it's not just worried.
(20:08):
We carry a lot of tension in our bodies.
Many timeswe don't notice as we're too busy.
We're just going about our daily lifeand we're not stopping
to, again, we don't realize thatwe have bodies, right?
We don't realize what's going on.
The physical tension that we carry,
or the mental strain is in the back,in the mind.
That can also be a part of this too.Right.
(20:30):
Just in general mental fatigueor strain or stress.
If you're,if you're having that because oh you're,
you're working long hours whatever.
And then you may be looking forhow do I cope with that.
Right.
Could that not be another way.
Someone could get into addiction.
Yeah. Yeah.
I think many times what happens isit's not like the person is consciously
(20:51):
thinking, oh, I'm under stress,how can I medicate?
Oh, I'll look at pornography.
Right.
It's you know, but but they're primed forthat because of this unrelieved stress.
And by ignoring stress,ignoring anxiety, ignoring
emotional pain,ignoring anger, whatever it is.
Because it isn't, noticed because itisn't named, because it isn't dealt with.
(21:13):
A person is much more vulnerable than,
to deal with it the wrong way.
Yeah.
This.
Wow. Yeah.
This is, this is a lot to to think aboutI mean it's
I think the piece that I'm
thinking at the momentis everyone listening to this,
(21:35):
you know, can easilyfind cases of addiction around them.
It's not hard to seewhether that be a way.
We mentioned, you know, social media or,you know, alcohol or whatever.
Or walk the streets of any city you'regoing to see drug addiction or something.
What are
what are ways people can help?
(21:59):
Which I know is kind of broad obviouslybecause every situation is different.
There's all these different types.
But, but what are some,some basics that we can keep in mind.
So getting the balance of confrontation
and care, getting that balance right.
So there is a place for confrontationI mean for example a family intervention.
(22:21):
Right.
Where, where the family where you sit downand say, look, you have a problem.
We really need to get you help.Will you please?
You know, I'mmaking an appeal to a family member.
We have to tell the truth to people.
Sometimes we have to tell hard truths.
So there is that side of it.
I think we have to really becareful, though, about over
(22:41):
relying on confrontation.
So many people who are addicted
know that they have a problem, right?
And they feel very badly about themselves,whether they admit it or not.
And one of the things that we can dois unintentionally trigger
or exacerbate their shame.
(23:02):
people who deal with chronic shamedon't necessarily admit it,
they don't necessarily show it right.
That doesn't mean tiptoeing around people,but we really need to be aware.
People often feel
very badly about themselvesand feel very badly about the addiction.
Oh yeah.
Because could could not a lot of usget start getting lumped in with things
like self-worth identity like very much soand so.
(23:27):
You might use the word cycle.
And so in many ways that that isthe cycle.
A person feels badly about themselves,
that makes their emotional distress worse.
They medicate thatthrough an addictive activity
that makes them feel worse about them.
And around and around it goes.
And that kind of comes backto one of the earlier things
that, that you had answered, where
(23:48):
if we have this attitude of just like,well, why don't you just stop doing that?
You know, or confronting something prettyjust like, well, just don't do that.
Yes. You may actually push itthe wrong direction.
Yeah.
That's a bit scary or scary or something.
We really should keep that in mind.
Because, I mean, that's
I would hope that's the last thingsomeone will want to do.
(24:09):
Right.
You don't want to make it worse.
So gracious truth telling.
Accountabilitydepending on what your role is.
So it's like the trauma thingthat we talked about before
in the other interview.
It depends on what your role is.
It depends on what your lane is.
I would really encourage, you know,
(24:29):
stick with this person for the long haul.
Or in other words,
are you willing to hang in thereand be a support to them
if it takes a long time for themto overcome their addiction?
You got to pace yourself.
This is a marathon. It's not a sprint.
And many timeswhat we do is we want to fix people.
(24:50):
We want them to get better all at once.
We want them to make the choiceswe want them to make.
We become super involved.
And if they don't change,then we get frustrated and we drop them.
And so what you've really gotto ask yourself if you're trying to help
someone with an addiction,am I going to walk with this person,
even if it takes months?
Be honest aboutmaybe the level of patience that you have.
(25:13):
Is that a way of saying it? Yes.
Yeah. Yeah. Because I think that is.
Well, this could almost be
classified as another addiction,the addiction of hurry, like, you know.
And so if the solution doesn't happenright away, we can kind of like.
Oh, well, okay.
Just, you know, And if you think about it hurry.
(25:34):
And the inability to toleratedistress is a driver of addiction.
Right.
That's another one of the drivers.
So there's a certain irony about that.
I have not thought of that before.
we want people to tolerate their distress.
That doesn'tmean accept the dysfunction in their life,
but to tolerate emotional painin small doses, right?
(25:55):
To be able to sit with loneliness,
to be able to sit with anger,to be able to sit with anxiety
without having to medicate immediately.
Right, without having to distract from it.
And when you could have the experienceof facing that thing
and sitting with that thing calmly,
in a grounded kind of way,
(26:18):
that canreally break the power of the addiction,
because then you learnthat I don't have to have this right.
And it's not just a notion now.
It's an experience you're having.
The experience of being able to tolerate
the thing that you're that you'remedicating with your addiction.
You don't know itas just an intellectual thing.
Well I know this.
(26:39):
You likeyou said you've actually experienced it
and can slowly start remapping it.
I guess, you know.
So helping people sit with their distress
in whatever way is appropriateto your role in your, in their life.
So this may take usin a different direction.
That might not be applicablebut I feel like I should ask it.
(26:59):
There's this classic Christian
doctrinebelief that we have called temperance.
Does temperance play into this temperance,patience, etc., etc..
Or am I off off the rails a bit?
Oh, totally.
I mean self-control, yes.
One of the fruits of the spirit.
Totally.
(27:20):
Yeah, yeah, Perhaps,
perhaps we could do with more,
awareness and and engagementwith the concept of temperance.
Perhaps.
I think, especially in our society.
I mean,
we don't have to wait for anything, right?
(27:42):
I mean, Okayso, we're filming this in Lancaster.
And last night,we realized there was this piece of gear
we needed for doing the doingthe interviews, and we really needed it.
So I quick go on Amazon,and lo and behold,
I can have itdelivered by the next morning.
And I'm just like,it's it's 930 at night or whatever it was.
And it'll be here in the morning.
(28:02):
I don't even have to wait like that.
Just kind of blew my mind.
And it felt like that's such a snapshotof American or Western society.
But anyways, what what does that do?
Yeah. What does that do to our souls?
Yeah.
And I mean, look, I use Amazon,I use the internet.
I mean, yeah, my point is, is not thatthese things are bad, obviously,
(28:24):
but I think we really need to think aboutwhat kinds of spiritual disciplines
help us not to becaught up in the spirit of the age.
So things like a temporary internet fast,for example,
or an Amazon fast
or one or whatever it might be.
Yeah. I think that there's.
(28:47):
Here's another analogy.
What kind of soil does addiction grow in?
And I think it grows quite well
in the soil of the consumer lifestyle.
So for example,I mean, this isn't consumerism per se, but
one of the things I've noticedwith men who struggle with pornography is
oftentimestheir weakest moment is when they're just
(29:09):
scrolling the internet on their phoneand they're not looking at anything bad.
It might be very good content, but that'sa slippery slope moment for them, right?
They're already in the hand of that zoneof checking out,
just by kind of mindless internet use.
Right.
feel like that's an important pieceright there.
(29:30):
And this is somethingthat we're all dealing with this.
Right.
We're all dealing with we in the West
the effects of prosperity, the informationexplosion, the consumer lifestyle.
Right. We're all trying to work this out.
I'm sure we all have growth areas in that.
And so
that that's another thing that I thinkcan help us
(29:50):
to have compassion for addiction,for people with addiction.
Right.
Is that we all struggle with
medicating or distractingin the wrong way.
Again I feels like thatthat was an important piece there as well
because it's pretty easyto look at someone who's addicted to
(30:11):
whatever sufferingfrom some type of addiction and say oh
why don't they just stop thatwithout realizing the hypocrisy of that
when you know you yourself may be dealingwith a form of addiction in your own life
that you hadn't even thought of,but it's, you know, you actually have
a slight addiction to mindlessly scrollingsocial media, you know, endlessly
(30:32):
or so, like, I mean, the data on that, bythe way, for America is is insane.
Like how much time is spent mindlesslyscrolling social media, for example?
And yet you may have that, but
then point your finger at someone else,you know, and say, oh, they're addicted.
I guess that kind of comes back
to one of the things we had been sayingpreviously is like, how do we be gracious?
(30:54):
Like, and, well, I guesshumility would go right along with that.
You know,
Another thing is curiosity.
So okayhow did this person get to where they are.
They didn't wake up one dayand say I'm going to be addicted.
I'm going to look at pornographyI want to drink.
What's the story behind.
And you know, not to use thatto make excuses for sinful behavior.
(31:16):
But what's the story behind this person'sstruggle?
Can we ask more questions?
And this would apply to any struggle,right.
Trauma, mental health, addiction.
I think that's a really good point.
Yeah.
one of the things we got to really be
careful aboutis ideologies or fads or agendas that
(31:39):
leave us
feeling like, oh, I know what your problemis, right?
Your problem is you have a demonor your problem is idols of
the heart of your problemis your childhood pain,
or your problemis an undisciplined lifestyle.
Any of those thingspotentially could be a factor.
I'm not dismissing any of thosecategories, but I'm just saying
let's be more curious about people'sexperience and not put people in boxes.
(32:04):
it's so easy to put people in boxes.
I guess that's I guess that's justa human thing that we do to each other.
I don't know when I kind of know where
where we want to pegsomebody or something.
Yeah.
Yeah, well, it makes it easier for us.
That's that's a good point.
Yeah. Yeah.
yeah.
(32:24):
And, I mean, you have to have waysof thinking about things.
You have to have hooks to hang things on.
We need to simplify our thoughts. And so
certainly it's understandable.
that that does make sense.
Yeah.
So to back it up a little bit.
Addiction is kind of a bleak topic.
And and you know.
(32:46):
Yeah. And
yeah we hear some things on,on the recovery process and, and so forth.
There's a lot more to this.
There's obviously, an enormous amountof work has been done in this sector.
Which is which is good.
But as we kind of pull backand look at the whole package
(33:06):
that we've went through in this,in this podcast,
what is somethingyou'd like to leave our audience with?
What's maybe a piece of adviceor something you think would be helpful?
Yeah.
Some principles to keepin mind as we go from here.
Two things.
One, people can change.
People can change.
(33:27):
They can changebecause God has put incredible
tools and resources into his creation.
And two,because of the power of his spirit.
And that's what the gospel is all about.
One of the questions I hear a lot is,
or is it possible to change, for example,pornography.
Can you break a pornography habit?
Yes, the answer is yes.
(33:48):
So that's the first thing.
The second thing is
receive God's love,
receive God'scompassion, receive God's acceptance.
And sometimes it's a severe mercy.
And sometimes there's God's chastisementand all that.
But people need to know deep down
that they're loved by God.
(34:10):
And people who hate themselves
because of their addictionfind it so much harder to move forward.
And the turning point thatI have seen again and again for people is
when they can receive God's love,even while they are still struggling.
Those are the ones who so often beginto move forward.
Don't waittill you've conquered your addiction
(34:32):
to let God love on you.
I think that is.
That is a powerful piece to end
this episode with that.
Wow, you've shared a lot of reallyinteresting and helpful pieces today.
(34:53):
And yeah, just thank you for the workthat you've done in this area
and reminding usthat it is possible to change.
And, there are ways that we can helpand yeah,
you're giving us a lot to think about.
So I appreciate you taking the timetoday, Michael, to come and share with us.
It's good to be here.
(35:15):
Thanks for listening to this episode.
If you found this interesting,you should check out the other interview
we did with Michael a few years back.
And you can find thatlinked in the description down below.
We also regularly publish essaysby Anabaptist thinkers,
which you can find on our websiteor has its own podcast.
Consider leaving a like and a reviewas it helps more people
find what we're doing hereat Anabaptist Perspectives.
(35:37):
Thanks again for listening,and we'll see you in the next episode.
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