February 13, 2025 • 35 mins
In this episode Matthijs Blom shares his journey of searching for a fellowship of likeminded believers. And sheds light on the state of the Anabaptist church in Europe.
This is the 254th episode of Anabaptist Perspectives, a podcast, blog, and YouTube channel that examines various aspects of conservative Anabaptist life and thought.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
I believeagain, if you want to get a blessing,
you need to make a leap of faith.
And for different people that those aredifferent steps, different leaps.
don't be discouraged.
I would say don't be discouragedbecause you feel lonely,
because there are numberof people who feel lonely.
But if they would know about each other,they would be less lonely.
(00:27):
Well,
Matthias, it's an honorto have you on the podcast today.
So we're here in Ireland,but you're originally not from from here.
Could you tell me where you were born?
And if you were raised in a Christian homeand just a little bit about your
your background as we get started Sure.
I, I originally come from the Netherlands.
(00:49):
Moved to Ireland
two years ago and born and raised in a,
Dutch Reformed church
the Dutch Reformed Church that
and to see what it resembles,
what it is, kind of what you compare itwith in, in the States,
which kind of would be
(01:12):
well, back in 1819, I've read,
the Dutch, established
the Reformed Protestant Dutch Churchin New Amsterdam,
nowadaysin, in New York and back and back then.
No. After that they, renamed it
rebranded to the RCA,the reformed Church of America.
(01:35):
So and out of that many branches,
came, but
that's where you kind ofcan compare it with the.
That's the Dutch Reformed ChurchI grew up in.
So born and raised in that churchin that setting,
really appreciated that.
And also my parents,
they made sure I, I knew the word and,
(02:00):
went to a Christian schools and,
so and yeah, always have been activewithin the church.
And well after when,
when when growing up, I always have had a,
a passionand zeal for evangelizing, reaching out.
So I, I've done that also in
(02:23):
different ways.
later on, I when, when I grew up in that
and started living on my, on my own and
I went and I met my wife
and she went to a Baptist church,
well, that's kind of trouble, of course,because in my Dutch
(02:45):
Reformed Church, you have, for example,
the infant baptism,
and the Baptist churchesdo the believers baptism.
So that's an issue.
And that was also an issue betweenmy wife and myself.
That's at the beginning,because I was very,
fond of, or convinced about the
infant baptism and, yeah.
(03:08):
So that was an issue.
But later on I came to realizethe believer’s baptism actually was,
the biblical one.
so, yeah, the,
and while we were going out,
my, my wife and I, we,we visited that, Baptist church, but,
we also went to a reformed churchthat I went to.
(03:30):
So it was back and forth, back and forth.
But after, after, after marriage,we we decided,
after six months I believe, or somethingwe decided to go to the,
Baptist Church and,when at the Baptist church,
it was a small church, but it wasit was good and nice to be there.
(03:50):
However, I always sensethere was something doctrinally,
especially with the,
dispensation and those kinds of things.
I never understood it, okay,I want to grab on to that one.
So the dispensation, dispensationalismand so forth.
I always thought that was justmore of a thing in American churches.
(04:11):
But you're saying you definitely hadthat where you were at?
Well, American churches all over.
All over, all over the place.
So was that with this? What,like like the church?
There was this was a, Canadian missionary.
Okay. Okay. That.
yeah, but there are plenty,
or plenty, plenty,
Dutch churcheswho who would believe in that?
(04:35):
Okay.
That's helpful context.
Yeah, I would that would be initiallythat was a little confusing
when hearing that part of like okay.But it's interesting.
It's a, a, it'sa, it's a big it's a big thing.
And of course you have differenceswithin dispensationalism.
I've learned of course.
But I backthen I never really understood it.
And I didn't really want to,
(04:55):
explore that topic because,
you know, I didn't really saw the benefitto anything. So,
but yeah, at some point,
there were some other things,in that church,
and we left that church in 2017.
But at the end.
There was I'm not sure how or why,but we came across,
(05:19):
there was a question about,
one Corinthians 11 and,
what that would mean.
So I found that interesting.
So I went, into that for myself.
I came to the conclusionthere is so much to it,
to one Corinthians 11,to the head covering.
(05:42):
So it took me a few months.
I made a report of 55 pages out of it
because there is so, so much to it,because I want to understand the meaning
of the words, the Paul using, for example,what means praying?
What means prophesying,what means shame, nakedness?
What is covering,
(06:03):
what is gathering,
what is glory, etc., etc.
so there are many things angels, you know,there are so many things attached to it.
So to and I believe personally,it took the devil centuries
to take away that fromthe Christian churches, because Protestant
and Catholic churches, they will use it,especially the Protestant have,
(06:26):
rejected it. More and more.
And also within
anabaptist churches it’sbecoming less and less
or smaller and smaller,however you want to define it.
But there's so much, so much to it.
so, yeah, I came to the, to the conclusion
that,
(06:47):
but that we should use itand that we should practice it
and, not just in the sense of the,the headship order,
although there is a sense to it, butI think its main the main point is glory,
as in, I believe God is waymore important, main way more focused on,
(07:07):
receiving his glorythan in maintaining his headship.
Because if if his position is really,truly his,
his main interest,then he would not come in his son
to die for a sinful people like us,so that in the sense
he he want to be glorified by
(07:29):
something, someone, right?
And that is with the with the glory.
And I found that so fascinating.
So and I came to that conclusionand I looked around in the Netherlands.
And where, where is that practiced
Were you able to
find anywhere that it was a no,
So I so I had
I had to go I had to go online.
(07:52):
Okay.
And I came across the Anabaptist groups,
so I thought, wow, that's nice,but they are pretty far away.
So. So you had not heardof the Anabaptists
or encounteredthat teaching until this point?
Yes and no.
Yes. In the senseof when I went to high school,
I still rememberthere was in religious class
(08:16):
we had every week,we had 1 or 2 hours of a religious class,
and there was half a page
or one page about Anabaptists.
Now, this is in the Dutch school system.
Correct. A Christian, or a Christian?
Reformed school system.
And I'm not sureif they are still using that book.
(08:36):
But anyhow, in the book that I was using,
and that was connected to Munster.
So it was, it was negative.
Yeah. So and that's a whole,a whole story.
And I actually want to do an Episodeon Munster or something, but,
that's one of the, unfortunate examplesof the Anabaptist story, right?
(08:56):
Where it went
horribly wrong and, and a lot of heresyand things got got mixed in with it.
That's interesting.
That's the example that they used.
But if you would aska regular Dutch person, but also a regular
Christian in the Netherlandsand say Anabaptist, they say what?
Baptist?
No, no, no Anabaptist.
And they wouldn't have a clue.
(09:18):
They wouldn't have a clue.
So, there is, some kind ofMennonite church,
very liberalone, in the Netherlands as you,
how would you call thata remnant of the previous times?
But it is once and again that's liberal.
That is.
I wouldn'tfind the head covering it there.
(09:39):
I just put it out that way.
So, so yeah, I came to that conclusion.
Well, and I saw the Anabaptistsand I said, well,
that's that's good to knowthat at least some people do it.
However, they are not nearby.
But, you know, if you start with that,you also come to,
you encounter other topicsas the nonresistance and as,
(10:03):
as jewelry. And,
just later on, also did, the kingdom,Two Kingdom Concept.
You encounter that and then,
especially with the two other topicsafter the head covering,
topic was,
I came to a conclusion and again,it was the Anabaptists.
(10:24):
They that they practiceit and or believed it and
so yeah, that's, that that's a bit,
2000, 17, 18, 19 kind of that period.
so a lot of theseyou mentioned others too.
So nonresistance or, you know, enemy love,I guess you could say, two kingdoms,
you know, modesty, you know, some of theteachings on jewelry, things like that.
(10:46):
Where are you finding this teaching?
Just on online as you searchedor where were you encountering these?
Well, I would,
because I,I would encounter Anabaptist websites
and thus learning more about what
what they believed.
And we also
(11:06):
we, me and my wife, we had one child, boy,nine years at the moment.
We want to do homeschooling or
we are homeschooling, but we want to backthen we want to homeschool.
And, you don't really have Dutch,
curriculumfor homeschooling in Netherlands
because it's a very small group of peopleto do to do homeschooling in that place.
(11:28):
People can, though, people can though.
Yes, at the moment.
But, my personal opinionis that it is going,
the wrong directionpolitically at that point.
So, but that's,that's a whole other topic.
But that, that is one of the main reasons,one of the two reasons why
(11:49):
me and my wife are so moved to Ireland,just because we
we know certain things,we expect certain things to change.
And, in Ireland it's more
ingrained, in the Constitution, the, the,
freedom of education by the parents
(12:11):
and in the Netherlandsis more in an article within the law.
So they can they won't really change itand I suspect, but they will
go around it,
without changing that, that is,that is what,
what what I think I'm seeing, so.
But anyhow, we wewe were thinking of going,
(12:32):
to do homeschooling and we need to havea, an English curriculum,
and we've learned through friends,
About an address in Wales.
And there you have the nationwide church.
Yeah. And they have a mission there.
And they, they send out books and,
(12:52):
I believe, and also the, curriculum.
So we ordered a curriculums there.
And at one point theythey also added to the,
to the package, they added,
an invitation to the conference
that they haveat the end of November, early December.
It always have a conference then.
so we thought, well, we should go there.
(13:13):
So we,
we went there and at that point we, we,we didn't know any Dutch anabaptists.
But when we went tothat, when we went to that,
conference in Wales, we,
we got to know two other Dutch
Anabaptist familiesthat that was an eye opening.
It was, happy to to knowthat there are some other people,
(13:38):
going into that direction and,
well, from there on,
we we especially with one other couple,we, we maintained contact,
although they,they lived 2 - 2.5 hours away from us.
So it's not something that you do itevery week, you know.
But anyhow, it was good.
(14:00):
Oh, and at that conference, we also met a
and a couple, a couple from Wisconsin,
and they invited usto come over to visit them.
And I believe wewe went there for two weeks, I think.
I'm not sure. I think so.
And, so, yeah.
So we said, to that invitationwe said yes.
So we went there and, the brother askedbefore we came, what do we want to do.
(14:24):
So, we want to meet the people
because we want to see what is life like.
You know, for an Anabaptist
thinking it is totally differentfrom what I normally do.
So, yeah. So, he said.
Yeah, sure. So,
we went there and we
visited almost every day,at least 2 families.
(14:45):
So it and it was really, really nice.
I myself,I could, just throw in with a revisit,
a different topic, you know, and,and this is that so really, really fun.
So, but,
Yeah, that was, that was good.
So really,really appreciate that from from them.
three years ago we,
(15:07):
we kind of as a family, we came,
we saw things changing.
Well, we think we see thingschanging politically.
And that always takes timein politics. So,
concerning homeschoolingand we at that point,
we were not part of the church.
We were, well, sitting at home,
(15:29):
doing some, on a Sunday,we would listen to
church, church services and,
from Anabaptist in, in the States,
and, but we we missed
the fellowship with people and,
some gray haired men have told me that,
(15:51):
they told me Matthijs,
if there is a big thing in your lifethat you need to do, do it.
Do it before your childor your children are 10.
So and I think there's some truth in that.
If it is ten, 11 or 12,it doesn't really matter, I think.
But the, the meaning,you know, the, there's truth in that.
(16:12):
And what we thought at least.
And compared to that, with that,
and homeschooling changesand not having fellowship.
So there are multiple reasonswhy we came to that.
Thought and lateron, the decision to move.
And, but we ourselves, we
we started thinking, well, what if we gowhere we, where would we go to.
(16:35):
yeah, because if there's
because if there's no other groupsin your own country you're talking about,
you're gonna have to leave your homecountry, you know, and go somewhere else.
That's a that's a that's significant.
And, you know, to to move like that.
Yeah. Is it not. yes, yes, yes.
Because it's in the mind of a Dutch personand also for me, myself, of course.
(16:58):
But also for family and friends.
Who, who, who are not in that process.
You go to a different country,you know, it's kind of
you go in the States,you go from one state to another, but
it's not the same thing,I think, because it's
culture wise, language wiseand perhaps rules.
There are some differencesin rules and regulations in states, but,
(17:21):
yeah, I think it's less,
less changes. But
yeah,but one benefit is here with Ireland.
It's part of the EU.
So we've been thinking of,
Well, we didn't want to leave Europe.
We wanted to stay in Europe.
there were three optionsthat we were thinking of and.
(17:43):
Well, Wales, the nationwide in Wales,nationwide also has another
mission in, in Denmark.
We visit them as well.
And here in Ireland,
we knew about,
Wales later on, but that's later on.
(18:04):
They only started that,just before we moved to Ireland.
To Denmark.
We didn't know,
kind of, but it was do I start?
here in Ireland,we at first we didn't know about Ireland,
but one of the Anabaptist friends,
they they bought a housein the Netherlands.
(18:24):
They needed to have that house.
Needed some remodeling.
And he asked some brothers here in Irelandbecause he knew Ireland.
And some brotherswent there for a week or so,
and when they, drove back
after that week, at the end of the week,they to the to the airport,
they passed our houseand they visit us for about 15 minutes.
(18:47):
And that is how we got to know.
And I also personally know, herepeople from from Ireland,
That 15 minute visit ended upbeing very significant in your life.
Yes. Then, yeah,that's that's kind of incredible.
And maybe that's a bit of a lesson.
The small moments of timethat we interact with other
(19:07):
people may have a much bigger effectthan we realize.
It's specially in your case.
So this is where you first meet people.
From here.You're hearing about the church.
What then is the decision process?
It says, okay,
you're actually going
to pack your family upand move to another country completely.
Yeah, I mean, that's that's a big step.
I mean, it's first of all, you know, I,I want to know.
(19:30):
God. Do you want me to go?
and I do think,
God is blessing the ones who take action.
The blessing only comes after the action.
I don't think the blessing comesbefore the action.
So if, if we do a good thing
or a pure thing or whatever,I think God will bless that.
Anyhow,
(19:52):
and I think this step is a good step.
I don't have to read it in a Bible,Matthijs, you have to move, you know?
But there are principles in the Bible,you know, to, to
to stay, pure, to stay, whatever.
still asking him, you know, God,if you want.
If you want me to, to go, then,
(20:12):
my main issue was the house I had,
I bought a houseand I needed money to to buy a house here.
But thefirst thing was when we bought that house,
it was for on the marketfor for more than over a year.
so, yeah, we were afraid.
Well, that's going to take a while.
(20:32):
And back then, our son was seven years,so we thought, well,
we still have some time left until ten,you know, so let's,
let's put it on the marketand then we'll see what happens.
But my main concern,
our second concern was concerningthe house was, well, the price wise
I needed money, so I neededa, I needed to have a good amount.
(20:57):
Right.
So I asked God, God,if you want me to go, then,
it has to be sold.
The house needs to be sold quickly andit has to be sold for a very good price.
So what we normally do when we, when we,
have someone
over to, to do, some work for us.
(21:19):
So we, we asked to real estate.
We asked three real estate agentsto come on Monday.
The first one came,and that is the one I really liked
as a person I had a, I click,I click with him.
And, there was, the second guy on Tuesday.
the, the third I had on a Wednesday.
And I really didn't like that guybecause from, from the first minute
(21:40):
I really didn't have that click,you know, but,
but I'm, do you know, OttoKoning the missionary
there in far away land.
it's slipping me where it where it was.
But yes, I know southeast Asia somewhere.
Papua New Guinea.
Yeah.
I remember him saying that,
(22:04):
he believed
God had signed him as a protectionthere in the jungle.
The most ugly, ugliestguy of the jungle to protect him.
And he was afraid of that guyat the start.
So that is how God sometimes works. So.
But anyhow, I had to think about that.
Yeah, just just a while ago.
But I really didn't had itclick with this guy.
(22:27):
But during our conversation halfway, we
he said, well Matthijs,I think I know someone for your house.
So. But I didn't want to give him him the,
the the permission to sell the house,you know, so I, I told him, well,
Yeah, well, you can show him the house,but it doesn't mean that you can do
(22:49):
the whole process of selling the house
and put it on the internet or whatever,you know, that, that kind of person.
So he said, oh, that's fine.That's fine, that's fine.
So that was on Wednesday.
And then on Fridaythe guy came, he said was interested
and that was an investment guy.
He did an investment in, in properties.
He walked around,
(23:10):
our, our propertyand we had a cup of coffee.
During the cup of coffee,the price went up and we sold the house,
and we were allowed to stay in the housefor six more months.
So we we you sold itin, like, four days or five days, like
if you had the first realtor on Mondayand the buyer came on Friday.
That's amazing.
(23:31):
God still makes, does wondersand He still answers prayers.
Oh, wow.
So he,
and we, we were allowed to stay therefor six more months.
We just rented our own house from him.
He was real.
He was an investor.
He wasn't going to live in it himself.
So, So, yeah, duringthat time, we bought the house in Ireland.
(23:51):
We did some remodeling in the house.
Well, we started remodeling,
and then we, we moved,
so to about two years agonow, we moved here to Ireland.
Yeah. That's again that's a big step.
And one of the questions that I havewith that, you know, there's
probably people listening to thisthat are they're searching
(24:12):
for a church, for a communitysomewhere to, to join and be a part of.
You clearly went through througha process of this.
In the Netherlands, pretty isolated.
And then finding a place to to come to.
What encouragementwould you give to those people
who are maybe going through thissimilar process that you went through?
(24:33):
It's quite a questionbecause every person is different.
Yeah.
And there are differenceseven between men and women.
but the main thing is in, in the,
in the Netherlands there are not,not really that many Anabaptists.
And if there are
no one knows abouteach other most probably.
(24:54):
So that would perhaps be a good thingto start something out for that.
But as an encouragement.
To start
having the contactswith those Dutch Anabaptist, people.
It's easy and especially in our day,
popular to to have the contactsthrough the internet.
(25:15):
And, from the States most often.
And there is value in that.
But one of the main
things of Anabaptist is the, community,
and the sense of people being together.
So to start that,
(25:38):
and one of the challenging thing is if,if you
finding other seekers,
so to say, you know, it's, it's
it's I'm not really sureseekers is the right word, but it's just
that, you will and you will encounterother people who are not,
thinking the same thingabout, for example, a divorce
(25:59):
or remarriage or the coveringor the two Kingdom concept.
They've never probablyhaven't considered that,
although I think that's the glue of thewhole, whole whole puzzle.
And that is challenging.
And I think that is a good thing,because if you're going
to, as an outsider,to come and join later on
(26:19):
in Anabaptist church,perhaps here and perhaps somewhere else,
there will be some challenges,
especially from European and,or even the Protestant mindset.
There will be challenges,and you would need to,
need to cope with that. But,
(26:40):
I believe if you have the desire to do so,
you should make the step and the effort
to actually engage
with the people you want to engage with.
Most people are looking for a church,we did as well, to just establish church.
(27:01):
Where is, some kind of stability?
people will need to,
make a leap of faith.
And again,I believe if the if the step is right,
not selfish, but for others, I think,
(27:21):
God will bless that.
Our main pointfor one of the main points for us
was not really, ourselves,but more for the son.
So in that sense, because I think we would
we would have as us to we would have copedwithin that environment,
but for him in the future, etc.,I think that would be a good thing.
(27:45):
And I think God blesses that. And,
where to live is one of the main points,
where my main questionsand I believe God provides, you know, the
I cannot I cannot work for the amountthat that the house went up.
You know, I cannot work for that.
And when I came here, I didn't have a job.
(28:08):
I just did remodeling for six months.
I send out two resumes, and I found,
the job that I, prayed for.
I believe God answers prayers,
but I believe again,
if you want to get a blessing,you need to make a leap of faith.
And for different people that those aredifferent steps, different leaps.
(28:31):
Yeah, don't be discouraged.
I would say don't be discouragedbecause you feel lonely,
because there are numberof people who feel lonely.
But if they would know about each other,they would be less lonely.
And if God wants,
a church there,then he can start a church there.
But you will need to have humble people.
(28:53):
And if people stick with their own,
Doctrines and beliefs
at certain points,you know, it's difficult to to get a
a church established.
I think many things are possible.
Many things are possible.
(29:13):
But again,
for every person that that might see,might look different.
And if someone really
is searching or,searching for something, then
there are conferences, you know,you can go to Wales for conference.
You can come to Ireland for conferences,you can come for a visit
and then experience.
(29:36):
You don't really have to go to the statesfor that anymore, right?
So we're happy that the Anabaptistscame back again, you know, after those,
that many centuries, right?
So we're happy about that.
Well, it's so is so interestingbecause Netherlands,
not probably not far from where you livedis where Menno Simons would have lived.
Right.
So it's kind of ironic in a way.
(29:56):
You you come from where a lot of thisstarted for many of our people
right there in the Netherlands. Yeah.You know.
I think. Yeah, that was that was
really helpful, what you just shared.
I think the,
the piece I'm I'm taking away from this is
the isolation is a real thing
to remember, you know,and for you and your family saying,
(30:20):
we need to have a real community aroundus, that you I guess you,
you know,you can listen to sermons on zoom
and you can,you know, talk to people on the phone,
but it's not the sameas living in a community with others.
And that's I think that's powerful. So.
Well, as we bring this, story to a close,
is there anything elseyou would like to leave with our listeners
(30:42):
or anything elsethat maybe there's something
I missed, in the story as we went along?
Well, I'm, I just shared,
a few, a few thoughts also for the ones
who are searching for thingsand looking for answers.
But I would like to address Anabaptists
who grew up, most often in the statesor Canada, where. But,
(31:07):
they are who are in, those groups for,
multiple years.
That it is important to do that outreach
to go to those places because
yesterday we, we sang a songthat at the school, the Christian school,
and there was a sentence of that
(31:30):
people are crying out
to be loosened from the bond,
and people are bound by Satan.
And we know Christ took away,
the bondage of Satan.
But we still have to resist. We need to.
People need to believe in Jesusand resist the devil.
(31:52):
And if we don't go there as a group ofpeople, if the Anabaptists,
if theyare reactive and not really proactive,
then then people will stay therein that crying,
just like Romans 10:14 and 15 says,
if they cry out,
(32:12):
how can they cry to himwho they don't know?
And how will they knowif they are not preached?
And who will preach if they are not sent?
And that is whyI think it's a proactive attitude.
And we should go with that mindsetbecause as Jesus says,
(32:34):
the the the them the harvest is white
and he's looking for harvesters,
for workers.
So who is willing?
Because I believe if you go somewhere,even if you're with
if no one is asking you to come,because that is one of the things that
Anabaptists do, you know, if someone asks,they will come and start a church.
(32:57):
But if they would go somewhere
without asking and they just go there,
they will find those who are crying outbecause Christ says so.
And and I think also here in Europe,
in Netherlands, Ireland,I think that is the would be
(33:18):
there's there will be a great harvest
for that and people will be released
from that bondage of darkness way sooner.
If we have the more proactive,
approach to that,
and we don't have to fearbecause the harvest is white,
we don't have to fear.
It's not dark, you know,we don't have to fear anything
(33:39):
because the problem is alreadyhas been given.
We just have to do.
so. But I'm really gratefulthat there are already
some Anabaptists groups coming here,
establishing some, establishingsomething, reaching out to people,
and that the kingdom of God is expanding.
(34:02):
That's that's a powerful note to end on.
You know, go and bring Christ'slight around the world to these places.
Thank you. So much for sharing.
I hope this was an encouragementto many people who listen to this.
And maybe they will take those stepsthat you described, whether they're
seeking for a communityor whether some of these other groups
(34:24):
could go to some of these placesand share Christ's light.
Yeah, it's a powerful message.
Thank you for sharing today.
Matthias, thank you so much for having me.
Thanks for listening to this episodewith Matthias.
If you enjoyed this conversation,you might want to check out this episode
we did with Sister Judy,
where she shares her story of her journeythrough the Christian spectrum.
You can find all our contenton our website
(34:46):
at anabaptistperspectives.org.
Thanks again for listeningand we'll see you in the next episode.
I believeagain, if you want to get a blessing,
you need to make a leap of faith.
And for different people that those aredifferent steps, different leaps.
don't be discouraged.
I would say don't be discouragedbecause you feel lonely,
because there are numberof people who feel lonely.
But if they would know about each other,they would be less lonely.
(00:27):
Well,
Matthias, it's an honorto have you on the podcast today.
So we're here in Ireland,but you're originally not from from here.
Could you tell me where you were born?
And if you were raised in a Christian homeand just a little bit about your
your background as we get started Sure.
I, I originally come from the Netherlands.
(00:49):
Moved to Ireland
two years ago and born and raised in a,
Dutch Reformed church
the Dutch Reformed Church that
and to see what it resembles,
what it is, kind of what you compare itwith in, in the States,
which kind of would be
(01:12):
well, back in 1819, I've read,
the Dutch, established
the Reformed Protestant Dutch Churchin New Amsterdam,
nowadaysin, in New York and back and back then.
No. After that they, renamed it
rebranded to the RCA,the reformed Church of America.
(01:35):
So and out of that many branches,
came, but
that's where you kind ofcan compare it with the.
That's the Dutch Reformed ChurchI grew up in.
So born and raised in that churchin that setting,
really appreciated that.
And also my parents,
they made sure I, I knew the word and,
(02:00):
went to a Christian schools and,
so and yeah, always have been activewithin the church.
And well after when,
when when growing up, I always have had a,
a passionand zeal for evangelizing, reaching out.
So I, I've done that also in
(02:23):
different ways.
later on, I when, when I grew up in that
and started living on my, on my own and
I went and I met my wife
and she went to a Baptist church,
well, that's kind of trouble, of course,because in my Dutch
(02:45):
Reformed Church, you have, for example,
the infant baptism,
and the Baptist churchesdo the believers baptism.
So that's an issue.
And that was also an issue betweenmy wife and myself.
That's at the beginning,because I was very,
fond of, or convinced about the
infant baptism and, yeah.
(03:08):
So that was an issue.
But later on I came to realizethe believer’s baptism actually was,
the biblical one.
so, yeah, the,
and while we were going out,
my, my wife and I, we,we visited that, Baptist church, but,
we also went to a reformed churchthat I went to.
(03:30):
So it was back and forth, back and forth.
But after, after, after marriage,we we decided,
after six months I believe, or somethingwe decided to go to the,
Baptist Church and,when at the Baptist church,
it was a small church, but it wasit was good and nice to be there.
(03:50):
However, I always sensethere was something doctrinally,
especially with the,
dispensation and those kinds of things.
I never understood it, okay,I want to grab on to that one.
So the dispensation, dispensationalismand so forth.
I always thought that was justmore of a thing in American churches.
(04:11):
But you're saying you definitely hadthat where you were at?
Well, American churches all over.
All over, all over the place.
So was that with this? What,like like the church?
There was this was a, Canadian missionary.
Okay. Okay. That.
yeah, but there are plenty,
or plenty, plenty,
Dutch churcheswho who would believe in that?
(04:35):
Okay.
That's helpful context.
Yeah, I would that would be initiallythat was a little confusing
when hearing that part of like okay.But it's interesting.
It's a, a, it'sa, it's a big it's a big thing.
And of course you have differenceswithin dispensationalism.
I've learned of course.
But I backthen I never really understood it.
And I didn't really want to,
(04:55):
explore that topic because,
you know, I didn't really saw the benefitto anything. So,
but yeah, at some point,
there were some other things,in that church,
and we left that church in 2017.
But at the end.
There was I'm not sure how or why,but we came across,
(05:19):
there was a question about,
one Corinthians 11 and,
what that would mean.
So I found that interesting.
So I went, into that for myself.
I came to the conclusionthere is so much to it,
to one Corinthians 11,to the head covering.
(05:42):
So it took me a few months.
I made a report of 55 pages out of it
because there is so, so much to it,because I want to understand the meaning
of the words, the Paul using, for example,what means praying?
What means prophesying,what means shame, nakedness?
What is covering,
(06:03):
what is gathering,
what is glory, etc., etc.
so there are many things angels, you know,there are so many things attached to it.
So to and I believe personally,it took the devil centuries
to take away that fromthe Christian churches, because Protestant
and Catholic churches, they will use it,especially the Protestant have,
(06:26):
rejected it. More and more.
And also within
anabaptist churches it’sbecoming less and less
or smaller and smaller,however you want to define it.
But there's so much, so much to it.
so, yeah, I came to the, to the conclusion
that,
(06:47):
but that we should use itand that we should practice it
and, not just in the sense of the,the headship order,
although there is a sense to it, butI think its main the main point is glory,
as in, I believe God is waymore important, main way more focused on,
(07:07):
receiving his glorythan in maintaining his headship.
Because if if his position is really,truly his,
his main interest,then he would not come in his son
to die for a sinful people like us,so that in the sense
he he want to be glorified by
(07:29):
something, someone, right?
And that is with the with the glory.
And I found that so fascinating.
So and I came to that conclusionand I looked around in the Netherlands.
And where, where is that practiced
Were you able to
find anywhere that it was a no,
So I so I had
I had to go I had to go online.
(07:52):
Okay.
And I came across the Anabaptist groups,
so I thought, wow, that's nice,but they are pretty far away.
So. So you had not heardof the Anabaptists
or encounteredthat teaching until this point?
Yes and no.
Yes. In the senseof when I went to high school,
I still rememberthere was in religious class
(08:16):
we had every week,we had 1 or 2 hours of a religious class,
and there was half a page
or one page about Anabaptists.
Now, this is in the Dutch school system.
Correct. A Christian, or a Christian?
Reformed school system.
And I'm not sureif they are still using that book.
(08:36):
But anyhow, in the book that I was using,
and that was connected to Munster.
So it was, it was negative.
Yeah. So and that's a whole,a whole story.
And I actually want to do an Episodeon Munster or something, but,
that's one of the, unfortunate examplesof the Anabaptist story, right?
(08:56):
Where it went
horribly wrong and, and a lot of heresyand things got got mixed in with it.
That's interesting.
That's the example that they used.
But if you would aska regular Dutch person, but also a regular
Christian in the Netherlandsand say Anabaptist, they say what?
Baptist?
No, no, no Anabaptist.
And they wouldn't have a clue.
(09:18):
They wouldn't have a clue.
So, there is, some kind ofMennonite church,
very liberalone, in the Netherlands as you,
how would you call thata remnant of the previous times?
But it is once and again that's liberal.
That is.
I wouldn'tfind the head covering it there.
(09:39):
I just put it out that way.
So, so yeah, I came to that conclusion.
Well, and I saw the Anabaptistsand I said, well,
that's that's good to knowthat at least some people do it.
However, they are not nearby.
But, you know, if you start with that,you also come to,
you encounter other topicsas the nonresistance and as,
(10:03):
as jewelry. And,
just later on, also did, the kingdom,Two Kingdom Concept.
You encounter that and then,
especially with the two other topicsafter the head covering,
topic was,
I came to a conclusion and again,it was the Anabaptists.
(10:24):
They that they practiceit and or believed it and
so yeah, that's, that that's a bit,
2000, 17, 18, 19 kind of that period.
so a lot of theseyou mentioned others too.
So nonresistance or, you know, enemy love,I guess you could say, two kingdoms,
you know, modesty, you know, some of theteachings on jewelry, things like that.
(10:46):
Where are you finding this teaching?
Just on online as you searchedor where were you encountering these?
Well, I would,
because I,I would encounter Anabaptist websites
and thus learning more about what
what they believed.
And we also
(11:06):
we, me and my wife, we had one child, boy,nine years at the moment.
We want to do homeschooling or
we are homeschooling, but we want to backthen we want to homeschool.
And, you don't really have Dutch,
curriculumfor homeschooling in Netherlands
because it's a very small group of peopleto do to do homeschooling in that place.
(11:28):
People can, though, people can though.
Yes, at the moment.
But, my personal opinionis that it is going,
the wrong directionpolitically at that point.
So, but that's,that's a whole other topic.
But that, that is one of the main reasons,one of the two reasons why
(11:49):
me and my wife are so moved to Ireland,just because we
we know certain things,we expect certain things to change.
And, in Ireland it's more
ingrained, in the Constitution, the, the,
freedom of education by the parents
(12:11):
and in the Netherlandsis more in an article within the law.
So they can they won't really change itand I suspect, but they will
go around it,
without changing that, that is,that is what,
what what I think I'm seeing, so.
But anyhow, we wewe were thinking of going,
(12:32):
to do homeschooling and we need to havea, an English curriculum,
and we've learned through friends,
About an address in Wales.
And there you have the nationwide church.
Yeah. And they have a mission there.
And they, they send out books and,
(12:52):
I believe, and also the, curriculum.
So we ordered a curriculums there.
And at one point theythey also added to the,
to the package, they added,
an invitation to the conference
that they haveat the end of November, early December.
It always have a conference then.
so we thought, well, we should go there.
(13:13):
So we,
we went there and at that point we, we,we didn't know any Dutch anabaptists.
But when we went tothat, when we went to that,
conference in Wales, we,
we got to know two other Dutch
Anabaptist familiesthat that was an eye opening.
It was, happy to to knowthat there are some other people,
(13:38):
going into that direction and,
well, from there on,
we we especially with one other couple,we, we maintained contact,
although they,they lived 2 - 2.5 hours away from us.
So it's not something that you do itevery week, you know.
But anyhow, it was good.
(14:00):
Oh, and at that conference, we also met a
and a couple, a couple from Wisconsin,
and they invited usto come over to visit them.
And I believe wewe went there for two weeks, I think.
I'm not sure. I think so.
And, so, yeah.
So we said, to that invitationwe said yes.
So we went there and, the brother askedbefore we came, what do we want to do.
(14:24):
So, we want to meet the people
because we want to see what is life like.
You know, for an Anabaptist
thinking it is totally differentfrom what I normally do.
So, yeah. So, he said.
Yeah, sure. So,
we went there and we
visited almost every day,at least 2 families.
(14:45):
So it and it was really, really nice.
I myself,I could, just throw in with a revisit,
a different topic, you know, and,and this is that so really, really fun.
So, but,
Yeah, that was, that was good.
So really,really appreciate that from from them.
three years ago we,
(15:07):
we kind of as a family, we came,
we saw things changing.
Well, we think we see thingschanging politically.
And that always takes timein politics. So,
concerning homeschoolingand we at that point,
we were not part of the church.
We were, well, sitting at home,
(15:29):
doing some, on a Sunday,we would listen to
church, church services and,
from Anabaptist in, in the States,
and, but we we missed
the fellowship with people and,
some gray haired men have told me that,
(15:51):
they told me Matthijs,
if there is a big thing in your lifethat you need to do, do it.
Do it before your childor your children are 10.
So and I think there's some truth in that.
If it is ten, 11 or 12,it doesn't really matter, I think.
But the, the meaning,you know, the, there's truth in that.
(16:12):
And what we thought at least.
And compared to that, with that,
and homeschooling changesand not having fellowship.
So there are multiple reasonswhy we came to that.
Thought and lateron, the decision to move.
And, but we ourselves, we
we started thinking, well, what if we gowhere we, where would we go to.
(16:35):
yeah, because if there's
because if there's no other groupsin your own country you're talking about,
you're gonna have to leave your homecountry, you know, and go somewhere else.
That's a that's a that's significant.
And, you know, to to move like that.
Yeah. Is it not. yes, yes, yes.
Because it's in the mind of a Dutch personand also for me, myself, of course.
(16:58):
But also for family and friends.
Who, who, who are not in that process.
You go to a different country,you know, it's kind of
you go in the States,you go from one state to another, but
it's not the same thing,I think, because it's
culture wise, language wiseand perhaps rules.
There are some differencesin rules and regulations in states, but,
(17:21):
yeah, I think it's less,
less changes. But
yeah,but one benefit is here with Ireland.
It's part of the EU.
So we've been thinking of,
Well, we didn't want to leave Europe.
We wanted to stay in Europe.
there were three optionsthat we were thinking of and.
(17:43):
Well, Wales, the nationwide in Wales,nationwide also has another
mission in, in Denmark.
We visit them as well.
And here in Ireland,
we knew about,
Wales later on, but that's later on.
(18:04):
They only started that,just before we moved to Ireland.
To Denmark.
We didn't know,
kind of, but it was do I start?
here in Ireland,we at first we didn't know about Ireland,
but one of the Anabaptist friends,
they they bought a housein the Netherlands.
(18:24):
They needed to have that house.
Needed some remodeling.
And he asked some brothers here in Irelandbecause he knew Ireland.
And some brotherswent there for a week or so,
and when they, drove back
after that week, at the end of the week,they to the to the airport,
they passed our houseand they visit us for about 15 minutes.
(18:47):
And that is how we got to know.
And I also personally know, herepeople from from Ireland,
That 15 minute visit ended upbeing very significant in your life.
Yes. Then, yeah,that's that's kind of incredible.
And maybe that's a bit of a lesson.
The small moments of timethat we interact with other
(19:07):
people may have a much bigger effectthan we realize.
It's specially in your case.
So this is where you first meet people.
From here.You're hearing about the church.
What then is the decision process?
It says, okay,
you're actually going
to pack your family upand move to another country completely.
Yeah, I mean, that's that's a big step.
I mean, it's first of all, you know, I,I want to know.
(19:30):
God. Do you want me to go?
and I do think,
God is blessing the ones who take action.
The blessing only comes after the action.
I don't think the blessing comesbefore the action.
So if, if we do a good thing
or a pure thing or whatever,I think God will bless that.
Anyhow,
(19:52):
and I think this step is a good step.
I don't have to read it in a Bible,Matthijs, you have to move, you know?
But there are principles in the Bible,you know, to, to
to stay, pure, to stay, whatever.
still asking him, you know, God,if you want.
If you want me to, to go, then,
(20:12):
my main issue was the house I had,
I bought a houseand I needed money to to buy a house here.
But thefirst thing was when we bought that house,
it was for on the marketfor for more than over a year.
so, yeah, we were afraid.
Well, that's going to take a while.
(20:32):
And back then, our son was seven years,so we thought, well,
we still have some time left until ten,you know, so let's,
let's put it on the marketand then we'll see what happens.
But my main concern,
our second concern was concerningthe house was, well, the price wise
I needed money, so I neededa, I needed to have a good amount.
(20:57):
Right.
So I asked God, God,if you want me to go, then,
it has to be sold.
The house needs to be sold quickly andit has to be sold for a very good price.
So what we normally do when we, when we,
have someone
over to, to do, some work for us.
(21:19):
So we, we asked to real estate.
We asked three real estate agentsto come on Monday.
The first one came,and that is the one I really liked
as a person I had a, I click,I click with him.
And, there was, the second guy on Tuesday.
the, the third I had on a Wednesday.
And I really didn't like that guybecause from, from the first minute
(21:40):
I really didn't have that click,you know, but,
but I'm, do you know, OttoKoning the missionary
there in far away land.
it's slipping me where it where it was.
But yes, I know southeast Asia somewhere.
Papua New Guinea.
Yeah.
I remember him saying that,
(22:04):
he believed
God had signed him as a protectionthere in the jungle.
The most ugly, ugliestguy of the jungle to protect him.
And he was afraid of that guyat the start.
So that is how God sometimes works. So.
But anyhow, I had to think about that.
Yeah, just just a while ago.
But I really didn't had itclick with this guy.
(22:27):
But during our conversation halfway, we
he said, well Matthijs,I think I know someone for your house.
So. But I didn't want to give him him the,
the the permission to sell the house,you know, so I, I told him, well,
Yeah, well, you can show him the house,but it doesn't mean that you can do
(22:49):
the whole process of selling the house
and put it on the internet or whatever,you know, that, that kind of person.
So he said, oh, that's fine.That's fine, that's fine.
So that was on Wednesday.
And then on Fridaythe guy came, he said was interested
and that was an investment guy.
He did an investment in, in properties.
He walked around,
(23:10):
our, our propertyand we had a cup of coffee.
During the cup of coffee,the price went up and we sold the house,
and we were allowed to stay in the housefor six more months.
So we we you sold itin, like, four days or five days, like
if you had the first realtor on Mondayand the buyer came on Friday.
That's amazing.
(23:31):
God still makes, does wondersand He still answers prayers.
Oh, wow.
So he,
and we, we were allowed to stay therefor six more months.
We just rented our own house from him.
He was real.
He was an investor.
He wasn't going to live in it himself.
So, So, yeah, duringthat time, we bought the house in Ireland.
(23:51):
We did some remodeling in the house.
Well, we started remodeling,
and then we, we moved,
so to about two years agonow, we moved here to Ireland.
Yeah. That's again that's a big step.
And one of the questions that I havewith that, you know, there's
probably people listening to thisthat are they're searching
(24:12):
for a church, for a communitysomewhere to, to join and be a part of.
You clearly went through througha process of this.
In the Netherlands, pretty isolated.
And then finding a place to to come to.
What encouragementwould you give to those people
who are maybe going through thissimilar process that you went through?
(24:33):
It's quite a questionbecause every person is different.
Yeah.
And there are differenceseven between men and women.
but the main thing is in, in the,
in the Netherlands there are not,not really that many Anabaptists.
And if there are
no one knows abouteach other most probably.
(24:54):
So that would perhaps be a good thingto start something out for that.
But as an encouragement.
To start
having the contactswith those Dutch Anabaptist, people.
It's easy and especially in our day,
popular to to have the contactsthrough the internet.
(25:15):
And, from the States most often.
And there is value in that.
But one of the main
things of Anabaptist is the, community,
and the sense of people being together.
So to start that,
(25:38):
and one of the challenging thing is if,if you
finding other seekers,
so to say, you know, it's, it's
it's I'm not really sureseekers is the right word, but it's just
that, you will and you will encounterother people who are not,
thinking the same thingabout, for example, a divorce
(25:59):
or remarriage or the coveringor the two Kingdom concept.
They've never probablyhaven't considered that,
although I think that's the glue of thewhole, whole whole puzzle.
And that is challenging.
And I think that is a good thing,because if you're going
to, as an outsider,to come and join later on
(26:19):
in Anabaptist church,perhaps here and perhaps somewhere else,
there will be some challenges,
especially from European and,or even the Protestant mindset.
There will be challenges,and you would need to,
need to cope with that. But,
(26:40):
I believe if you have the desire to do so,
you should make the step and the effort
to actually engage
with the people you want to engage with.
Most people are looking for a church,we did as well, to just establish church.
(27:01):
Where is, some kind of stability?
people will need to,
make a leap of faith.
And again,I believe if the if the step is right,
not selfish, but for others, I think,
(27:21):
God will bless that.
Our main pointfor one of the main points for us
was not really, ourselves,but more for the son.
So in that sense, because I think we would
we would have as us to we would have copedwithin that environment,
but for him in the future, etc.,I think that would be a good thing.
(27:45):
And I think God blesses that. And,
where to live is one of the main points,
where my main questionsand I believe God provides, you know, the
I cannot I cannot work for the amountthat that the house went up.
You know, I cannot work for that.
And when I came here, I didn't have a job.
(28:08):
I just did remodeling for six months.
I send out two resumes, and I found,
the job that I, prayed for.
I believe God answers prayers,
but I believe again,
if you want to get a blessing,you need to make a leap of faith.
And for different people that those aredifferent steps, different leaps.
(28:31):
Yeah, don't be discouraged.
I would say don't be discouragedbecause you feel lonely,
because there are numberof people who feel lonely.
But if they would know about each other,they would be less lonely.
And if God wants,
a church there,then he can start a church there.
But you will need to have humble people.
(28:53):
And if people stick with their own,
Doctrines and beliefs
at certain points,you know, it's difficult to to get a
a church established.
I think many things are possible.
Many things are possible.
(29:13):
But again,
for every person that that might see,might look different.
And if someone really
is searching or,searching for something, then
there are conferences, you know,you can go to Wales for conference.
You can come to Ireland for conferences,you can come for a visit
and then experience.
(29:36):
You don't really have to go to the statesfor that anymore, right?
So we're happy that the Anabaptistscame back again, you know, after those,
that many centuries, right?
So we're happy about that.
Well, it's so is so interestingbecause Netherlands,
not probably not far from where you livedis where Menno Simons would have lived.
Right.
So it's kind of ironic in a way.
(29:56):
You you come from where a lot of thisstarted for many of our people
right there in the Netherlands. Yeah.You know.
I think. Yeah, that was that was
really helpful, what you just shared.
I think the,
the piece I'm I'm taking away from this is
the isolation is a real thing
to remember, you know,and for you and your family saying,
(30:20):
we need to have a real community aroundus, that you I guess you,
you know,you can listen to sermons on zoom
and you can,you know, talk to people on the phone,
but it's not the sameas living in a community with others.
And that's I think that's powerful. So.
Well, as we bring this, story to a close,
is there anything elseyou would like to leave with our listeners
(30:42):
or anything elsethat maybe there's something
I missed, in the story as we went along?
Well, I'm, I just shared,
a few, a few thoughts also for the ones
who are searching for thingsand looking for answers.
But I would like to address Anabaptists
who grew up, most often in the statesor Canada, where. But,
(31:07):
they are who are in, those groups for,
multiple years.
That it is important to do that outreach
to go to those places because
yesterday we, we sang a songthat at the school, the Christian school,
and there was a sentence of that
(31:30):
people are crying out
to be loosened from the bond,
and people are bound by Satan.
And we know Christ took away,
the bondage of Satan.
But we still have to resist. We need to.
People need to believe in Jesusand resist the devil.
(31:52):
And if we don't go there as a group ofpeople, if the Anabaptists,
if theyare reactive and not really proactive,
then then people will stay therein that crying,
just like Romans 10:14 and 15 says,
if they cry out,
(32:12):
how can they cry to himwho they don't know?
And how will they knowif they are not preached?
And who will preach if they are not sent?
And that is whyI think it's a proactive attitude.
And we should go with that mindsetbecause as Jesus says,
(32:34):
the the the them the harvest is white
and he's looking for harvesters,
for workers.
So who is willing?
Because I believe if you go somewhere,even if you're with
if no one is asking you to come,because that is one of the things that
Anabaptists do, you know, if someone asks,they will come and start a church.
(32:57):
But if they would go somewhere
without asking and they just go there,
they will find those who are crying outbecause Christ says so.
And and I think also here in Europe,
in Netherlands, Ireland,I think that is the would be
(33:18):
there's there will be a great harvest
for that and people will be released
from that bondage of darkness way sooner.
If we have the more proactive,
approach to that,
and we don't have to fearbecause the harvest is white,
we don't have to fear.
It's not dark, you know,we don't have to fear anything
(33:39):
because the problem is alreadyhas been given.
We just have to do.
so. But I'm really gratefulthat there are already
some Anabaptists groups coming here,
establishing some, establishingsomething, reaching out to people,
and that the kingdom of God is expanding.
(34:02):
That's that's a powerful note to end on.
You know, go and bring Christ'slight around the world to these places.
Thank you. So much for sharing.
I hope this was an encouragementto many people who listen to this.
And maybe they will take those stepsthat you described, whether they're
seeking for a communityor whether some of these other groups
(34:24):
could go to some of these placesand share Christ's light.
Yeah, it's a powerful message.
Thank you for sharing today.
Matthias, thank you so much for having me.
Thanks for listening to this episodewith Matthias.
If you enjoyed this conversation,you might want to check out this episode
we did with Sister Judy,
where she shares her story of her journeythrough the Christian spectrum.
You can find all our contenton our website
(34:46):
at anabaptistperspectives.org.
Thanks again for listeningand we'll see you in the next episode.
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