March 10, 2025 • 59 mins
In part two of our engaging conversation with Sarah Fisher, renowned canine and equine behavior advisor and co-founder of Animal Centred Education (ACE), we dive even deeper into the transformative power of ACE Free Work. Sarah shares extraordinary insights from her decades of experience, explaining how detailed observations, movement analysis, and sensory experiences can add immense value to the way we understand and support our dogs.
Sarah recounts pivotal moments that shaped the evolution of Free Work, including how dogs like Oscar, Cookie Dough, and Henry played a crucial role in its development. We explore how subtle body cues, posture shifts, and movement patterns reveal hidden discomfort and help us predict the emotional states of our dogs - insights that can be life-changing for trainers, caregivers, and behavior professionals alike.
Sarah also shares compelling real-world case studies, demonstrating how Free Work has helped dogs navigate stress, build confidence, and reshape heavily reinforced behaviors. From its impact on pain assessment to its role in helping dogs self-regulate, this episode offers a wealth of knowledge that will challenge the way you perceive canine learning and communication.
What You’ll Discover in This Episode:
🐾 How Free Work allows dogs to become the pilot of their own learning
🐾 The connection between movement, body posture, and emotional well-being
🐾 How pain and discomfort can manifest in subtle but crucial ways
🐾 The impact of sensory engagement on canine relaxation and behavior change
🐾 Why ACE Free Work is a powerful tool for both dogs and their caregivers
Why This Episode is a Must-Listen:
Sarah’s expertise and passion shine through in this fascinating discussion, providing trainers, caregivers, and behavior professionals with invaluable tools to observe, listen, and improve their understand of their dogs. If you’ve ever wondered how to create an enriching and supportive environment for your canine learners, this episode is a must-hear!
📢 Join the Conversation:
Subscribe, share this episode, and join our ATA community as we continue to explore science-based, ethical approaches to animal training!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:04):
Welcome to the Animal Training Academy podcast show.
I'm your host Ryan Carledge and I'm passionate
about helping you master your animal training skills
using the most positive and least intrusive approaches.
Here at ATA we understand that navigating the
vast challenges you encounter in training requires a
(00:27):
comprehensive base of knowledge and experience.
It's common to face obstacles and rough patches
on your journey that can leave you feeling
overwhelmed and stressed.
Therefore since 2015 we've been on a mission
to empower animal training geeks worldwide.
We've aided thousands in developing their skills, expanding
(00:51):
their knowledge, boosting their confidence and maximizing their
positive impact on all the animal and human
learners they work with.
We are excited to do the same for
you.
Simply visit www.atamember.com, join our vibrant
(01:12):
community and geek out with us.
And of course in the meantime enjoy this
free podcast episode as we explore new ways
to help you supercharge your training skills, grow
your knowledge and build your confidence so that
you can craft a life that positively impacts
(01:32):
every learner you encounter.
We will start today's episode where I'm super
excited to welcome back to the show for
part two of our conversation Sarah Fisher.
Now before we dive in if you haven't
listened to the first part of our conversation
(01:53):
you can find it in the previous episode
on whatever app you're listening to this show
on.
In that episode we explored Sarah's journey and
getting started from a young age and getting
her first dog to what led all the
way up to where she currently invests and
(02:15):
has been for the last 24 years.
Her resources and her time Tilly Farm and
ACE aka Animal Care and Education.
It's definitely worth a listen however if you
haven't listened to it yet you are of
course welcome to start here with part two.
You're still going to gain plenty of insights
to help you grow your skills, knowledge and
confidence in animal training.
(02:36):
Let's get straight into it.
It's my very great pleasure to welcome Sarah
back to the show today.
Sarah thank you for taking the time to
come and hang out with us again at
Animal Training Academy.
Thank you for inviting me back Ryan.
It's a pleasure.
I can't wait to do this episode.
I've been very excited about it because for
the listeners and Sarah as you know last
(02:57):
year I was fortunate enough to be in
the UK for family reasons and I managed
to convince my wife to let me slip
away from family responsibilities to attend the Pet
Professional Guild British Isles Summit at Craig Ogilvie's
training facility.
Now I'll be honest Sarah while I was
(03:18):
aware of your name I hadn't had the
privilege of diving into your work before that
and then at the summit when I saw
your ACE free work session on the schedule
I thought I have no idea what this
is but I'm going to attend it and
I have to say it was one of
the most fascinating live sessions I've seen.
You had the dogs moving around, various items,
(03:39):
some items loaded to ground, some higher up,
snuffle mats, food here and there and the
dog guardians weren't actively engaging with the dogs
you were simply observing and pointing out behaviours
and things you say like look at how
the dog did this or how the dog
is doing that and it blew my mind
how much you couldn't interpret from their choices,
movements and actions.
Then if I remember correctly it was really
(04:02):
cold outside and you and Lesley ended up
teaming up for a session inside instead of
one of you being outside, Lesley McDevitt that
is.
Lesley's work is something I've studied for a
while and seeing both of you together blending
your insights was incredibly insightful and inspiring so
for those listening who like me at that
(04:24):
time might not be familiar with what you
do, can you please dive into what free
work is, what was it that you were
doing in that session and why it is
so important and maybe we can expand from
there into how free work fits into your
broader scope of your ACE program.
Sure, it was such a pleasure to connect
with Lesley and to meet you at that
(04:45):
conference, it was such a great event for
me.
I love doing live stuff, kind of missed
that so much moved online obviously from the
pandemic but it's great to be reconnecting with
people in person again.
So free work is actually quite difficult to
describe what it is but basically kind of
think enrichment but with really good observations that
(05:06):
help us ensure that those sensory experiences are
enriching on a physical level as well and
as part of my influence from the human
field I was highly aware of the power
of influencing the tactile system for dogs that
were worried about hand contact, find it hard
(05:26):
to navigate their environment and going back a
few years when we first had Tiddy Farm
I was doing a lot of teaching particularly
at animal shelters like Battersea, Battersea is one
of our oldest and most famous shelters here
in the world, yeah here in the UK
and I was teaching a two-day workshop
(05:47):
and one of the last dogs that came
in for an assessment because I by then
was being able to look at coat patterns
and say hang on a minute this dog
needs a veterinary evaluation because the coat will
change direction where there's a loss of mobility
through the skin and that might be because
of diseases like arthritis or micro traumas, little
(06:11):
muscle tears, it could also be to do
with you know the health conditions and issues
with the hormone system or all of that
so people are asking me to come and
teach those observations to staff members and to
training clubs and I was getting to share
through PowerPoints and stuff and seminars and alongside
(06:34):
some amazing people in the world of behavior
so again very much learning experience for me.
So at Battersea this final dog came in
on day one of this workshop and he
was pulling into his flat collar and his
eyes were bulging, pulling into a flat collar
can increase the pressure behind the eye and
I said I really wanted to transition him
(06:55):
to a harness if that was appropriate and
the caregiver who had been looking after him
only for a few days said yeah I
didn't think that was going to be a
problem and he went to put a harness
on this dog Oscar and Oscar erupted and
I felt awful I had bleed and I
had quickly threaded a second knee through the
(07:17):
collar and through that thing to an assistant
and this person had to back away and
did all the right things disengaging and lowering
posture and looking away but Oscar was fixated
on this caregiver and I just thought oh
my gosh this is absolutely horrific because there's
a high chance that this dog isn't going
(07:40):
to make it through the assessment process because
Battersea never refused a dog and they were
always realistic and honest about their euthanasia policy
and I said to their head of behavior
look I feel that we've blown this we
missed the fact that this dog was potentially
so stressed and I'd really like to give
(08:01):
him a really nice day tomorrow and I
also understand why you know he's in for
assessment he'd been picked up as a stray
he's probably not gonna be successfully rehomed 18
month old big brindle bull breed in London
and the head of behavior said yeah yeah
of course he can do part two of
the workshop tomorrow I just wanted to give
(08:22):
him a bit of peace and I was
thinking okay so it was proximity of people
but he was okay with us holding the
lead was it something novel going to touch
his body how can we influence the tactile
system and overnight I was thinking you know
we've got to do something we've got to
do something to give this dog a good
experience to help him feel safe and hopefully
(08:43):
start to relax a bit in what's obviously
a very stressful environment for him so next
morning I got anything we could you know
we're talking you know 2000 2001 dog food
bags you know the that were going out
to the bin the mats from car footwells
(09:03):
blankets you know any different texture that we
could find because I knew from my human
learning that actually putting different textures on the
soles of people's feet really had quite a
profound impact on the brain particularly where people
had disease states that were impairing cognition and
impairing movement and I knew it's very powerful
part of therapy for some people and I
(09:26):
was thinking why aren't we doing this with
dogs why aren't we doing this with dogs
so Oscar was the one that just started
that whole thing off we got pallets covered
them so he didn't get his feet caught
between the slats got anything that would just
give him a different sensory experience and give
him something to feel and think about instead
(09:46):
of the stress of being handled by unfamiliar
people in this overwhelming environment and I put
two leads on him threaded ones through the
collar and asked the caregiver from the day
before whether he wants to reconnect with his
dog and he did because he felt terrible
as well and we just said we're just
gonna let him move we've had all this
stuff laid out in this concrete paddock it
(10:08):
was before this amazing refurb happened at the
London site in Battersea and we just let
this dog move and we just moved with
him we weren't trying to steer him we
weren't trying to lure him we were just
moving we had him on the lead for
everybody's safety and as he started to touch
different things and step onto and off their
pallet his whole posture started to change got
(10:32):
his head down he was sniffing he really
started to become more focused in his movement
and he suddenly looked at the caregiver and
he started wagging his tail well we all
wanted to burst into tears because clearly the
dog had been so stressed yesterday that we
completely blown it didn't realize how stressed he'd
(10:53):
been coming in maybe we knew he was
stressed completely blew it and added more pressure
when we were trying to take pressure off
him by putting him in a harness getting
the pressure off his neck but he hadn't
even recognized who that caregiver was in that
moment so he was wagging his tail and
oh my gosh he was amazing and everything
(11:15):
was different in that session it was peaceful
it was incredible and a month or so
later I was teaching another workshop there and
I said to the head of behavior I
said dare I ask what happened to Oscar
I get that he was not going to
necessarily be an easy dog to re-home
particularly as he wasn't able to cope in
kennels so she said oh just stick your
(11:36):
head out my office and look down that
pathway down there and there was Oscar and
his caregiver and they were both sitting leaning
against the wall and the guy had his
arm over Oscar's back and he was stroking
him on the chest and they were just
watching dogs coming down from the kennels to
the paddocks dogs going from the paddocks back
up to the kennels and he got successfully
(11:56):
re-homed and that dog is one of
those dogs who absolutely was one of the
foundation for what is ACE because that started
to take me on this whole sensory experience
and then I had a foster in 2008
called Cookie Dough I would foster some of
the puppies that were struggling at Battersea and
(12:17):
that she was really overwhelmed by anything that
touched her any noises visual information and people
were saying train more and I was doing
a lot of positive teaching obviously teaching her
lots of life skills that was much more
beneficial to me than having her grab my
hair and skin on my neck she could
(12:37):
really jump and my clothing when she was
overwhelmed but I fell in and I fell
into the trap of teaching her lots of
alternative behaviors and she was super smart super
clever but I then thankfully realized that actually
although I was teaching her some useful skills
I wasn't helping her relax I was actually
keeping her busy and engaged but just diverting
(13:00):
that engagement away from my body and that's
when people going train more train more no
if something isn't helping there's benefits here but
it's not helping her self-regulate and connect
and relax in the environment there's something missing
so you don't do more of the same
thing you have to start doing something different
(13:21):
and I looked online for sensory sensitivity information
going to the human field so unless we
have to look outside our own industry and
I came across the work of Jean Ayers
who's an American psychologist and occupational therapist who
developed the theory of sensory integration and looking
(13:45):
at that relationship between the brain and behavior
and recognizing sensory integrative dysfunction and I thought
my gosh this is it anything that any
sensory stimuli that is overwhelming is what is
driving all the behaviors where cookie does happen
to use her teeth and that's something we
(14:06):
need to consider in the industry it's a
sensory side of biting because we don't and
we know that children do it when they're
overwhelmed we know that adults who maybe have
dementia who are overwhelmed bite and yet with
dogs it's not a conversation that I often
hear so that's one of my passions discussing
the sensory side of the bite that led
(14:28):
me to integrate even more sensory experiences than
the different textures that I'd introduced to Oscar
a few years before and I was also
we had a sensory barn at Tilly farm
for visiting dogs so I recognized dogs found
it really difficult in novel environments to settle
but the minute we gave them space to
move and use their nose they were able
(14:48):
to feel much more relaxed more quickly and
that of course helped their caregivers relax so
when dogs are coming for one-to-one
experiences I was creating more sensory experiences this
was pre snuffle mat so we'd have rolled
up or bunched up towels in raised boxes
and people would say oh my dog's not
(15:09):
interested in exploring any puzzle games or anything
but the minute I'd lift stuff off the
floor dogs could suddenly access items that had
food sprinkled on them and I was also
using big mats long before looking mats were
made that were textured mats to stop food
bowls sliding on kitchen floors I was putting
(15:30):
pastes and stuff like that on those to
give the dog a different sensory experience with
their tongue because that was also something I'd
noticed with cookie dough that she didn't lick
anything she didn't use her tongue it was
all teeth teeth teeth teeth teeth in response
to sensory overload which probably included excessive fatigue
(15:53):
and potential gut pain as well and so
these outcomes were amazing the minute dogs could
access items physically and emotionally because a dog
that's not feeling safe isn't going to put
their head down either suddenly we were getting
completely different outcomes during the one-to-ones
and people were sharing more quickly why they'd
(16:15):
come to see me instead of just dropping
a sort of behavior bomb towards the end
of the session you know lots of people
that do one-to-one client sessions will
have gone through lots of tips and techniques
and then just as the sessions coming to
the end the caregiver might go oh and
I also need to ask you about something
(16:35):
quite you know serious significant and that's quite
a common theme that people will share the
bigger stuff towards the end as they know
that there's going to be a get out
and what was happening was that people were
sharing more more quickly because their dogs were
relaxed dogs were relaxing that had you know
really struggled in novel environments the outcomes were
(16:56):
amazing and I started to bring all these
sensory experiences together as a separate learning experience
for dogs like cookie dough we'd have sensory
stations going on on group workshops I was
teaching again with amazing outcomes with the caregivers
and the dogs just sharing these explorations in
(17:17):
a really peaceful way and then Henry arrived
in 2017 and brought everything together because he
actually started to offer learning behaviors and his
the way he navigated the world was very
similar to cookie dough who ended up staying
with me and I credit cookie dough and
(17:37):
Henry being the two dogs who really are
the founders of ACE because without them adding
even more amazing nuanced layers to the way
I was already exploring connecting with dogs ACE
free work wouldn't exist so now we have
a range of different what we call stations
where we might have a step that we
(17:59):
then have a secure snuffle mat on or
an IKEA play mat they're great where we'll
put three snuffle mats because cookie dough I
gave her one single snuffle mat would just
pick it up flick it with a terrier
you know brilliant death shake and all the
treats be scattered on the floor take me
longer to load one then it would take
(18:21):
her to dispatch them and I realized I
wasn't meeting her DNA needs it was actually
not a very enriching experience for her it
was a bit boring a bit frustrating maybe
and I watched her in the sensory barn
where the donkeys would spend the night and
I'd watch her scenting through the straw banks
on the trail of rats now she would
have been a serial killer had I left
(18:41):
her but we have an amazing array of
wildlife at the farm and I want everyone
to live peacefully together so she would never
get over and aroused around excuse me the
rat scent excuse me sorry but she really
enjoyed pushing her head through the straw banks
and I realized that the snuffle mat wasn't
facilitating that so I got someone to make
(19:03):
lots of thin snuffle mats one of our
ace advanced tutors Sue Williamson who's an amazing
groomer well worth exploring how she incorporates ace
into the grooming salon to give dogs a
break she's amazing so she made me loads
of thin snuffle mat put them in a
big pile and cookie dough loved pushing her
head through each layer to get the treats
(19:24):
so we're really looking at what information are
we learning from the dog to create an
enriching experience and increasing their sensory reference library
if you like so initially we put in
the ball pit that cookie inspired in 2008
but actually I discovered that lots of dogs
were worried by that noise we don't use
(19:45):
cardboard boxes packed with stuff because watching videos
of people who've set these kind of games
out for their dogs a lot of dogs
are actually worried by the noise and the
fact that the box moves so you see
this body tension and that's why I really
encourage people to observe look at what you're
actually seeing rather than focus on what you
(20:06):
believe is happening because sometimes in our bid
to enrich our dogs lives we inadvertently create
more frustration or body tension and nobody means
to do that of course so free work
is this amazing sensory adventure where we're building
at a pace to suit each individual dog
(20:26):
for some dogs we might just start with
three stations others we might start with five
or six and then we build and we
add in textures underfoot going back to what
Oscar taught me in you know 2000 2001
then we do low level platforms and low
level up and over boards and can really
(20:47):
start identifying physical challenges and there's something absolutely
extraordinary about that free work experience where it
really does help to integrate every single part
of the dogs amazing body and habits change
behavioral habits movement habits postural habits habits in
(21:09):
the caregiver changes in this incredible way that
really helps dogs connect with self connect with
their environment and connect with us in a
really useful and rewarding way so it's about
getting the dogs relaxed the owners relaxed and
(21:31):
observing picking up things to give us information
about the learner in front of us it's
giving the dogs a chance to be the
pilot of their own learning experiences and we're
there as kind of air traffic controllers to
guide them back to a safer flight path
should the need arise so we'll we'll have
(21:52):
for example dog came a few years ago
and was introduced as a nine-year-old
dog who had a high fray drive around
birds and would chase and hunt birds and
would also bark and lunge and spin when
(22:12):
on the lead if he saw another dog
so he's nine years old he's got well
-practiced behavioral responses to very specific stimuli birds
and unfamiliar dogs in his free work session
I filmed it for the caregiver and we
have like amazing layouts but we can also
have really simple layouts we could have many
versions and combination stations where we put a
(22:34):
lot of stuff together in one space so
you don't need a big space to be
able to do this but we were in
my indoor arena and it's open on two
sides and this dog was off lead and
enjoying this beautiful exploration with his caregiver and
one of our local Corvids flew down and
was first sitting on the low wall because
the Corvids know free work means food and
(22:56):
then the Corvid flew down and landed on
the surface of the arena and was just
hopping around on the outskirts of the free
work set up and the dog 100%
knew that bird was there and was so
engaged and so focused and so peaceful and
enjoying that connection with his caregiver that he
almost you know if a dog could have
(23:17):
shrugged his shoulders like whatever he'd have done
that and the caregiver was so amazed she
said I cannot believe what I'm seeing this
is absolutely extraordinary and we see this over
and over again with free work it is
mind-blowing she then when she went outside
wanted to see what his response would be
(23:38):
to the next dog that was going to
come out of their car and come into
the free work space so she waited and
her dog would have previously lunged and spun
and barked on the lead and he just
stood on a relaxed lead just watching this
other dog go by and we see this
over and over again there's something I've got
lots of theories I understand a little bit
about the nervous system I have a huge
(24:01):
passion for it I obviously have information I've
got from human experiences and learning and I'm
always reading and all roads kind of keep
coming back to free work that it that
kind of quiet engagement and navigating easy obstacles
it's not a challenge the obstacles is almost
(24:21):
the word easy items that are changing the
body posture can enhance learning in humans that's
100% what we see with dogs and
it's just a really extraordinary way of helping
dogs that would normally be scanning the environment
and really worried about unfamiliar people or worried
about the horses or needing to carry a
(24:43):
toy in their mouth all the time just
take that breath and really connect with self
and we're influencing you know so many sensory
systems through that kind of peaceful engagement it's
almost a bit like kind of sensory yoga
and we just help dogs sort of engage
the parasympathetic nervous system we can also highlight
(25:05):
habits in the caregiver as well as the
dog and see where that dog may be
in need of additional support first through vet
checks and then maybe through a nutritionist and
you know a veterinary physio or whatever massage
therapist or whatever is going to be of
benefit to the dog and it's amazing for
(25:25):
dogs of all ages from all backgrounds if
dogs have had a deprived start we can
start to fill in some of the gaps
dogs that might have been born in a
sob up sob gosh suboptimal environment and for
dogs like cookie dough who just found the
world utterly overwhelming that whole process really helped
to give her agency over those sensory experiences
(25:46):
and integrate those experiences in a way that
made life way more peaceful and rewarding for
her and we've also identified some amazing details
in the way dogs gather information that I
don't know how we've missed it in other
contexts and so we have people watching free
(26:09):
work sessions we only have a few people
we only take five dogs on each workshop
and up to ten spectators but nearly every
single dog that I've watched when we give
them the opportunity to explore through hopefully rewarding
engagements with our ace free work nearly every
single dog and I've watched thousands now when
(26:30):
they want to gather data from an unfamiliar
person they come into that space they glance
towards maybe two or three people watching then
they go and explore a tub filled with
mini snuffle mats at a height that's easy
for them to access then they start air
-sensing towards those one or two people and
maybe glancing towards another couple of people in
(26:52):
the room and then moving and exploring something
else in free work then they start this
casual walk by of the one or two
people they've air-sensed towards and then they
go back to free work they never walk
by everyone they never air-sense towards all
the spectators and then once they've done a
walk by they'll come and shoe scent or
(27:14):
scent the lower leg of the people they've
walked by and then maybe go and walk
by two people on the opposite side of
the room and go back to free work
this is this amazing sequence and then once
they've done lower leg sensing then they'll come
and scent from the hip up and then
orientate themselves and air-sense the breath and
people have got a unique breath just like
a fingerprint it's a unique signature and obviously
(27:37):
it's not appropriate for dogs to come up
and sniff everyone's breath but I actually wonder
if that's why a lot of dogs get
anxious and jump up to try and get
that sensory information really quickly and I also
think how often have we interrupted this beautiful
nuanced data gathering process by encouraging puppies to
(27:58):
jump up at us leaning over touching them
when all they wanted to do was sniff
a shoe if a dog's physically uncomfortable if
they've got arthritis or emotionally uncomfortable they might
not start with that shoe and lower leg
scent they might start with that hip and
upper body scenting but from the thousands of
(28:20):
dogs I've observed only two dogs have run
over to people straight away even though their
caregivers will always say oh my dog's gonna
come and mug you my dog always jumps
up my dog loves people and when I
hear people say my dog loves people he's
gonna jump all over you my immediate thought
is has this dog got body tension this
(28:42):
dog is under social pressure and that's often
to do with body sensitivity and that's what
I was starting to match with all the
observations that I was bringing from my human
background to the dog and the horse world
seeing these very clear patterns in the way
people were describing the animals and behavior that
(29:03):
they they were witnessing pairing that with what
I was actually seeing in terms of the
way the dogs would organize their body and
it's the same for humans we have the
same patterns of holding and if our faecious
muscles very expressive there's an emotional connection to
what we do with our shoulders and it's
same for the dogs so watching these dogs
(29:24):
do these amazing data-gathering explorations is mind
-blowing once you see it you can't unsee
it and it's not only in free work
that dogs will do this give them the
chance they'll do it when you're out and
about as well and the other thing that
was that's mind-blowing to me is the
finished clues and the dogs nearly always explore
(29:45):
for around 17 minutes if they're free work
aficionados they might go on for 20 but
most dogs will explore for around 17 minutes
and this was a really strong pattern when
we start to time these explorations and then
I started to look at the neuroscience behind
that and TED talks at 18 minutes for
(30:09):
a reason because you that's a good time
budget for absorbing information and then having a
break to process all of that and there
was a study done with people who are
in some stages of cognitive decline where if
they had 17 minutes sitting mindfully paying attention
to what they could feel in terms of
(30:31):
their clothing on their skin and paying attention
to their heart rate and their breath it
had a profound and positive impact on cognition
and the researchers didn't know why it was
happening but they knew it was happening and
what they also discovered was that those people
only had to have that experience once and
(30:53):
I'm reading that and I'm freaking out because
this is exactly what we're seeing in free
work profound changes in movement and behavior do
we then go hey we've resolved everything it's
not because practice makes perfect we want to
keep giving that dog that experience of peace
and for many caregivers they've never seen their
(31:15):
dog relaxed before and for many dogs they've
never felt relaxed before so that's also been
a hugely profound experience because the caregivers can
recognize what their dog can experience in terms
of relaxation and connection to self and therefore
identify more quickly when something is starting to
(31:36):
change and in ACE we really focus on
that dog's internal environment and the more we
focus on well-being in the internal environment
for a dog and that might include dietary
change absolutely addressing pain so many dogs are
living with chronic pain and it's overlooked because
(31:57):
people don't recognize what a painful landscape looks
like for a dog and that's one of
my passions you're pointing out these coat changes
changes the spread of the toe that tells
me there's uneven weight bearing through a particular
foot and that's why the toes have had
to splay on one side of the body
for example but giving yeah people that opportunity
(32:20):
to see their dogs in a relaxed way
and really focusing on that internal environment just
means that external environment is just naturally less
disruptive for these amazing animals and we really
focus on income for the dog and have
what I call the no attachment to outcome
(32:40):
where we're not focused on outcome we're just
focused on giving that dog a rewarding experience
shaping that free work set up to meet
their physical and emotional and cognitive needs and
letting nature work it's magic and it's a
life-changing experience and that's why I give
away so much information on it Ryan because
(33:03):
I'm so passionate about helping dogs find peace
and I think that comes from you're going
back to Cynthia and Erin the desire to
create peace even in very difficult times and
have a really peaceful environment is a huge
part of how I connect with dogs let's
help them find that sense of peace so
(33:26):
that they can recover more quickly if something
does upset or overexcite them you know stress
isn't always a negative thing body tensions isn't
always a negative thing can come from high
excitement joy exuberance but then the body gets
stuck in these habits and we need to
help the animal learn and experience what true
(33:49):
relaxation and true contentment feels like because once
the body knows what's available it can find
it again if we create the right environment
for them I know what I want to
ask you but I don't know what I
want to ask you I don't know how
(34:11):
to articulate it so gratitude to you in
advance for answering whatever comes out of my
mouth next okay you said the once you
see it you can't answer it and I'm
taking myself back to watching the free work
sessions that we did in Bourne UK October
(34:35):
I think last year yeah and you gave
an example there of the spread of the
toe that tells you there's uneven weight-bearing
and that's what blew me away so much
about it was you know I'm learning a
lot now that I didn't that adds to
and replaces the layers upon what I learned
back then in terms of the relaxation part
(34:56):
because the thing that blew me away there
was the in the moment awareness of the
things that I went I wasn't saying and
then thinking as a professional if I'm helping
an animal there's so much that I can
do in there and it's definitely better without
me and I'm doing a great job but
there's so much that I'm not seeing and
(35:17):
I can and I can only imagine that
it's true for for everyone because everyone has
their knowledge and experience that they can only
see what they can see and so for
me it was just in that in those
sessions just so much enjoyment from you going
look at that thing I was like didn't
see that didn't even know to look there
(35:37):
and look at how much information and you
said that you're not a you understand a
little bit about the nervous system and I
was like well that's not what I took
away from watching you do those sessions I
guess someone who knows a lot about these
things and it was exciting and so much
Sarah is yeah I love I love this
(35:58):
frequent times doing this podcast show running animal
training Academy traveling to conferences where and the
lost people say this I know that the
listeners of this show can relate to this
where you realize how little you know and
you realize how much scope there is to
expand and economy and start again from a
new learning position but for the listeners of
(36:21):
the show and I'm not so before I
ask them for I say this this episode
and everything you've shared so far has been
incredibly helpful and insightful and I think the
learners will take away a lot from it
but doesn't do justice to being there and
watching you work and then seeing them free
work in real life but we put people
(36:41):
in and also you shared was it with
cookie dough that you can train all these
behaviors and show ready new skills but there's
something missing there they are and I got
that sense as well like okay cool I
can teach new skills and I'm good at
that and doing maybe season all that kind
of stuff but I'm missing this because I
don't know this information I'm missing potentially important
(37:04):
parts of the Jigsaw puzzle which there's these
fleeting feelings of overwhelm we should the listeners
of this show start to go okay I
kind of understand free work I probably need
to dive into serious content more to understand
it more and see the level up and
then and then I've got to kind of
understand what to look for and what this
(37:25):
because because I remember I think I think
it was an example Sarah where the dogs
were looking and you're like when the dogs
looking look at this muscle on this back
leg and you'll see it you'll see it
flinching and I was up my you know
mind-blowing didn't even know that existed so
like there's learning all of those things about
what to look for because I imagine likes
a freeway what I'm trying to say that
(37:46):
a free work set up without that knowledge
you know where do we start to get
the knowledge to turn the free work session
into an opportunity for us to to see
what we're not seeing does that make sense
yes it does and lots of people will
come on it join an online course like
that's a really cool thing to start and
(38:07):
what I would say is if you're not
used to looking at animals I was lucky
because I grew up riding and we pay
attention to what movement sounds like you're hearing
for that lameness you're hearing for that toes
stuff and so I listened to dogs movement
as well but that was never taught in
the dog world that's why I'm so passionate
(38:29):
about this so I grew up seeing and
feeling and hearing things but just because of
connecting with horses if you're used to watching
animals in any capacity set up free work
and see what you can see as movement
slows down it is mind-blowing when a
dog stands at a station and as a
(38:49):
rule of thumb as a bit of a
guide there's no set rules we're working with
each individual dog the top of the station
shouldn't be any higher than the top of
the dog's front leg because we don't want
dogs to be stretching stretching creates tension stretching
tells the body its limitation and we're always
working with the possibility that's a Feldenkrais saying
(39:12):
you know don't show the body its limitation
always remind it of its potential so start
just putting out some snuffle mats at a
height where your dogs can access it and
what I'm looking for is can that dog
organize their body and have a leg at
each corner as I call it and ideally
and it's gonna vary slightly to do the
(39:34):
confirmation of the dog and also whatever genetic
predisposition to a slightly challenged confirmation that dog
might have inherited but for the majority of
dogs if you imagine they have paint on
their pads and if they're standing at a
station licking a sensory mat or a licky
(39:58):
mat provided the food's not caught in the
squares that just makes dogs bite at the
licky mats and can trigger frustration watch to
see where those paws are and if they
walked away what paw prints would you see
would you see a paw print at each
corner of a rectangle so your dog's got
(40:18):
the front feet parallel the back feet parallel
and a lovely length and back because that's
ideally what we're looking to support but we're
not luring we're letting nature do its amazing
thing and letting the body find that position
for itself or is the dog protecting their
lumbar spine their hips their knees and are
(40:39):
the back legs together but forward further forward
underneath the dog's body are those toes in
front of the knee and if the dog
then walked away would they be leaving four
little paw prints at the corner of a
square what we want is that rectangle that
longer frame can the dog even stand with
(41:03):
four legs in balance or are the wide
is there a wide stance in front and
back legs really close together because again they're
protecting maybe the lower back or have they
always got the right hind habitually out to
the side perhaps and then maybe we start
to recognize oh look there's a coat color
change around that right hip and actually the
(41:25):
dog when invited to turn to the left
struggles because it can't actually lengthen the structures
on the right that's really interesting they're only
going around their free work in a clockwise
way or maybe only an anti-clockwise way
we start to see so much more detail
and that also Ryan helps us recognize the
(41:46):
difference between reward based training and rewarding education
the two are very different if I have
a dog that I've discovered cannot for any
reason turn to the right let's say you
can't turn to the right at all his
preference is to move anti-clockwise around my
free work setup and when licking can only
(42:07):
flex the head to the left the neck
to the left sorry never flexes the neck
to the right I can then say oh
my and this has happened this is what
the details that we see in free work
I can then say oh my goodness maybe
when I'm out walking this dog on a
line and the dog perceives a threat coming
towards them or in a field because they've
(42:28):
never seen a donkey before if I invite
that dog to turn to the right because
I'm habitually handling dogs on my left side
it actually doesn't matter how many rewards I
pair with that right-handed movement that movement
and that invitation to turn away is never
going to be a rewarding experience for the
dog because it's potentially painful because I'm asking
(42:52):
them to move in a direction that's not
easy and not only might it be uncomfortable
it's going to create more body tension and
dogs that are tense in the body and
or painful can't scent food so when we
say oh my dog can't eat when they're
out why because they're tense because maybe they're
(43:14):
painful because maybe we are adding pressure even
though we're trying to give them a good
experience so that just those details look at
the feet what are the ears doing where's
the tail is the tail in balance or
is the tail off to the right or
the left that's really common that one ear
(43:34):
will be less mobile the tail be hanging
off to one side and how does the
dog navigate that space do they go left
and right or do they have a very
clear preference and how does that then translate
to how we connect with them on the
line when we're furthering their education and experiences
if that is already making people go that's
(43:55):
too much information and I am trying to
give you 30 years experience in a you
know really tight time frame and I'm so
passionate about this I 100% share way
too much so apologies if people can't keep
up with the you know the information I'm
sharing but that's the joy of recording might
get to play it back and back go
(44:16):
and look at your photographs that you've got
of your dog who shared your life with
start looking at the sit look at the
sit and puppy hood up to however old
your dog might be or photographs that you
might have captured over the last few months
if your dog's new a new member of
your family because lots of dogs with undiagnosed
(44:38):
chronic pain will have a sloppy or slouchy
sit so they might only sit on one
hip or they might sit with their hind
legs past their front legs where they're sort
of they've rolled back on their pelvis or
maybe they can't sit and maybe when they
lie down they only ever lie on their
(45:00):
right side and start looking at information of
where does your dog choose to rest because
quite often we'll create a bed that might
actually not be so comfortable for the dog
we don't give them as much choice and
certainly we want to be mindful of any
hard bed that might be forcing the dog
to adopt a position that might not be
(45:20):
so comfortable so I go for soft beds
with raised sides on maybe a couple or
two or three sides so the dog can
rest their neck like a pillow but they've
also got the option to have a lower
side so we've got round beds with sides
raised beds with three sides to support the
dog, flat beds, chairs, we've got a whole
(45:42):
array of different stuff and it's really interesting
noting when the dogs choose what type of
bed and what positions they sleep in so
I want my dogs to be able to
sleep on their back, sleep on their left
side, their right side, flat out, curled up
and if we don't see that massive range
of sleep postures we've got to ask why
(46:03):
why is this dog unable to access a
variety of sleep positions like we do and
then what you see in sleep is often
what you'll see when the dogs are awake
in movement so what's your dog's dreaming?
Do they go into REM sleep, rapid eye
movement sleep and when they are dreaming what
(46:25):
parts of their body are twitching because when
Henry came to me it was evident he's
got some damage or maybe was born with
a problem with the right side of his
neck so his right ear doesn't or didn't
move as much, it's much better now as
his left and even when he was dreaming
his left ear would twitch and his right
ear wouldn't and we've had dogs with hip
(46:46):
dysplasia whose front legs twitch but their back
legs don't until they were on pain relief
and everything relaxed and then the back legs
were twitching in the sleep as well there's
so much information as I say everything you
could want to know about your companion is
there in front of you we've just got
to start observing it so I run an
online course called Ace Dog Detective and I'll
(47:07):
put one on probably towards the end of
the year it's one of my favorite full
courses to teach three weeks online going through
photographs people setting up free work uploading the
videos we give feedback and a dedicated Facebook
group it's such a fun course and it's
a life-changing course for dogs and people
(47:29):
and I can't guarantee what people will learn
from any experience but I can guarantee one
thing if you do the Ace Dog Detective
course or you come on a free work
workshop or you connect with some of our
amazing ace tutors who will do one-to
-ones online I guarantee you will never look
(47:50):
at your dog in the same way again
and it's really exciting but comes with a
health warning too because you may discover things
that are uncomfortable and guilt is a unfortunate
and unavoidable part of learning because when we
learn something new that's when we can have
regret and I look back at photographs and
(48:12):
I think how did I miss that but
I I see things in a different way
and I still miss stuff but like you
were saying it's exciting it's exciting when I
watch this data gathering pattern it's exciting when
we recognize the finished clues dogs start counter
-surfing they start staring at treat pouches that's
(48:34):
not them saying I want to learn more
that's often around that 17 minute mark where
they default to a well-practiced behavior that
requires no more thinking or processing because they
need a break from all the new experiences
and it's overwhelming and I look back at
my older photos of companions that we've had
(48:56):
and I just go I'm so sorry I
missed that but as we learn more we're
going to look back and realized how far
we've come because as you said you can't
know what you don't know you can't see
what you can't see and we have to
be mindful of the fact that any animal
is blessed to share their life with a
canine guardian or equine guardian or feline guardian
(49:19):
that is open to learning is a lucky
animal and we are blessed to have these
forgiving and giving souls in our life to
further our knowledge to everything they have to
share.
I remember before I went to your free
work session Leslie McDivitt said to me everyone
(49:41):
needs to do free work and I was
like well I'm definitely gonna go so I
am excited to hopefully have time to do
that with you in the next week in
the future that would be amazing I know
and I'm sold.
You are welcome anytime.
I'm sold from what I've seen and what
I've learned from you that what you're saying
is 100% true.
(50:01):
I think we've over complicated a lot of
stuff when it comes to canine education and
just stripping everything back just gives us permission
to sweat the small stuff and I say
we must sweat the small stuff and sweat
is stand back, watch, engage, acknowledge and teach
sweat.
(50:22):
We do need to sweat the small stuff
because all that information is there.
I used to do court case assessments for
section one and three of the Dangerous Dogs
Act and I'd see coat patterns and I'd
feel temperature changes and we'd get dogs reassessed
by vets really pinpointing where we could get
these dogs x-rayed or whatever to save
(50:45):
their lives in court and there was always
a reason why that bite had occurred.
There was a dog who when I was
watching him couldn't flex his neck to the
left and his left ear was really rigid
and I said and what when I was
assessing I never wanted to read any of
the reports I didn't want to read anything
(51:05):
from the police or witness reports I didn't
want to know anything about the dog I
didn't even want to talk to the guardian
I just wanted to assess the dog either
at Tinney Farm if they'd come to me
or in the kennels if they'd been seized
because I didn't want any voice in my
head other than the voice of that dog
and I could write down pretty well what
(51:28):
had happened because of all the little fun
things I would do I wouldn't provoke the
dogs and we can look at levels of
arousal through the provision of different toys and
food you have to provoke them we really
don't and it was amazing being able to
find all these details and realizing why the
dog had reacted when they were touched in
a very specific place and I feel very
(51:51):
lucky as well that I had all that
as a learning experience because literally every dog
could tell me the truth of their story
and then of course we could make sure
those dogs were pain-free that maybe their
diet was changed if they had dietary sensitivities
that can trigger behaviors that actually look like
(52:12):
it could be a hip issue but actually
it can be linked to discomfort in the
lower back because of the dietary sensitivity that's
my experience too so yeah all this information
is there and all this detail is there
and it's just amazing when we really do
sweat the small stuff and practice looking we
(52:32):
need to practice observing we're such a busy
species that we've forgotten that are looking with
peripheral vision we're so busy with central vision
focused and it's difficult when you're looking using
your central vision because actually your peripheral vision
is what is mainly designed to pick up
movement so we can actually see more detail
(52:55):
more relaxed we are and the more we
use all aspects of our visual system and
free work gives you the opportunity to be
relaxed and stand back and watch or join
your dog at the stations because then we
add learning layers we can teach all sorts
of skills in free work we join the
dog at their favorite station we include cheer
rags the counting game but very modified version
(53:18):
because we never need to count beyond one
so we teach all sorts of life skills
on the foundation of free work and it
says emerging evidence that it actually speeds up
learning improves recall it is mind-blowing and
I say this not because I came up
with it I don't think I came up
with it cookie dough and Henry and dogs
(53:39):
like Oscar and dogs like Sandy at the
RSPCA that switched me on to coat changes
linked with discomfort they're all the ones that
have created ace and cookie dough and Henry
are the ones that have really developed ace
free work so I promote it not because
it's my finding it's not I've just interpreted
(54:01):
what these amazing dogs have been sharing for
so many years it's their work and that's
why I'm happy to share it and give
it away because it was developed by dogs
for dogs and it needs to go back
to the dogs yeah and Sarah if I
could have cookie dough and Henry on the
podcast would but we have to invite you
(54:22):
to offer that interpretation hey I could keep
asking questions but I realize you know I
laughed or laughed internally or maybe when hmm
when when you see TED talks are intentionally
18 minutes so we appreciate you listening to
this podcast as a listener for the good
hours that we dive into these topics thank
(54:42):
you very much we've talked about ace online
and where people can go to Tilly farm
and some of the great learning opportunities that
you provide I just wanted to shout out
as well to an upcoming trip you have
to the US of a to speak at
yeah aggression and dogs conference do you want
to share a little bit more about it
(55:02):
yes I'm doing a presentation on yeah free
work and sensory side of the bite helping
to build dogs you know sensory reference library
and observations because in my experience dogs that
are really sensitive to the presence of unfamiliar
people and unfamiliar animals are really tight in
(55:24):
their body and just saying discomfort restricts and
comfort expands so I'm very lucky very honored
that Michael Cascio has invited me to share
some of that at the conference in September
and I can't wait amazing and that will
be yes September 26 to 28 you can
(55:45):
attend in person or live stream and we'll
put a link to that in the show
notes for this episode because if you can
I would highly encourage you to get along
to see Sarah at that event and just
as an added bonus you get a bunch
of other amazing speakers and presentations there as
well Michael Cascio is doing an amazing job
of putting that event on we're asking people
(56:07):
go online Sarah to do some of the
learning opportunities that you've mentioned animalcentrededucation.com but
also look at the Tiddy Farm website tiddyfarm
.org.uk because we have amazing ace tutors
some of whom started saying I'm not an
(56:27):
observant person but I love free work does
it matter that I haven't got very good
observations and I say if you recognize that
dog's a black sighthound that's your first observation
and all my amazing tutors are incredible with
observations now because we don't push people we
(56:47):
let people find their own learning style we
have the same principles with people that we
do with animals so we have amazing tutors
though they also run online courses and they're
listed on the Tiddy Farm website so please
you know visit that as well there's that's
an old website needs a lot of updating
actually but yeah my amazing certified tutors and
(57:11):
instructors run online courses on and off through
the year as well so there's nothing on
my platform that appeals please check out some
of the amazing offerings from the ACE teaching
team.
Fantastic and we will of course link to
all of us in the show notes as
well Sarah this has been so much fun
(57:32):
I'm so grateful that you said yes to
jumping on this show with me so thank
you from myself and on behalf of everyone
listening we really appreciate you taking the time
to come and hang out with us thank
you so much.
Thank you so much Ryan it's been an
absolute pleasure.
And thank you so much for listening as
(57:53):
well this is your host Ryan Cartlidge signing
off from this episode of the Animal Training
Academy podcast show we hope today's conversation inspired
you and equipped you with new tools for
your trainers toolbox remember every challenge in training
is an opportunity to learn and sharpen your
(58:14):
animal training geekery embrace the rough patches learn
from them and keep improving and don't forget
the path to growing your skills and expanding
your knowledge continues beyond this episode visit www
.atamember.com to join our supportive membership where
(58:38):
you will find a community of trainers just
like you together we're making a huge positive
difference in the lives of animal and human
learners worldwide until next time keep honing your
skills stay awesome and remember every interaction with
(58:59):
an animal human learner is your opportunity to
create ripples we're here cheering you on every
step of the way see you at the
next episode
Welcome to the Animal Training Academy podcast show.
I'm your host Ryan Carledge and I'm passionate
about helping you master your animal training skills
using the most positive and least intrusive approaches.
Here at ATA we understand that navigating the
vast challenges you encounter in training requires a
(00:27):
comprehensive base of knowledge and experience.
It's common to face obstacles and rough patches
on your journey that can leave you feeling
overwhelmed and stressed.
Therefore since 2015 we've been on a mission
to empower animal training geeks worldwide.
We've aided thousands in developing their skills, expanding
(00:51):
their knowledge, boosting their confidence and maximizing their
positive impact on all the animal and human
learners they work with.
We are excited to do the same for
you.
Simply visit www.atamember.com, join our vibrant
(01:12):
community and geek out with us.
And of course in the meantime enjoy this
free podcast episode as we explore new ways
to help you supercharge your training skills, grow
your knowledge and build your confidence so that
you can craft a life that positively impacts
(01:32):
every learner you encounter.
We will start today's episode where I'm super
excited to welcome back to the show for
part two of our conversation Sarah Fisher.
Now before we dive in if you haven't
listened to the first part of our conversation
(01:53):
you can find it in the previous episode
on whatever app you're listening to this show
on.
In that episode we explored Sarah's journey and
getting started from a young age and getting
her first dog to what led all the
way up to where she currently invests and
(02:15):
has been for the last 24 years.
Her resources and her time Tilly Farm and
ACE aka Animal Care and Education.
It's definitely worth a listen however if you
haven't listened to it yet you are of
course welcome to start here with part two.
You're still going to gain plenty of insights
to help you grow your skills, knowledge and
confidence in animal training.
(02:36):
Let's get straight into it.
It's my very great pleasure to welcome Sarah
back to the show today.
Sarah thank you for taking the time to
come and hang out with us again at
Animal Training Academy.
Thank you for inviting me back Ryan.
It's a pleasure.
I can't wait to do this episode.
I've been very excited about it because for
the listeners and Sarah as you know last
(02:57):
year I was fortunate enough to be in
the UK for family reasons and I managed
to convince my wife to let me slip
away from family responsibilities to attend the Pet
Professional Guild British Isles Summit at Craig Ogilvie's
training facility.
Now I'll be honest Sarah while I was
(03:18):
aware of your name I hadn't had the
privilege of diving into your work before that
and then at the summit when I saw
your ACE free work session on the schedule
I thought I have no idea what this
is but I'm going to attend it and
I have to say it was one of
the most fascinating live sessions I've seen.
You had the dogs moving around, various items,
(03:39):
some items loaded to ground, some higher up,
snuffle mats, food here and there and the
dog guardians weren't actively engaging with the dogs
you were simply observing and pointing out behaviours
and things you say like look at how
the dog did this or how the dog
is doing that and it blew my mind
how much you couldn't interpret from their choices,
movements and actions.
Then if I remember correctly it was really
(04:02):
cold outside and you and Lesley ended up
teaming up for a session inside instead of
one of you being outside, Lesley McDevitt that
is.
Lesley's work is something I've studied for a
while and seeing both of you together blending
your insights was incredibly insightful and inspiring so
for those listening who like me at that
(04:24):
time might not be familiar with what you
do, can you please dive into what free
work is, what was it that you were
doing in that session and why it is
so important and maybe we can expand from
there into how free work fits into your
broader scope of your ACE program.
Sure, it was such a pleasure to connect
with Lesley and to meet you at that
(04:45):
conference, it was such a great event for
me.
I love doing live stuff, kind of missed
that so much moved online obviously from the
pandemic but it's great to be reconnecting with
people in person again.
So free work is actually quite difficult to
describe what it is but basically kind of
think enrichment but with really good observations that
(05:06):
help us ensure that those sensory experiences are
enriching on a physical level as well and
as part of my influence from the human
field I was highly aware of the power
of influencing the tactile system for dogs that
were worried about hand contact, find it hard
(05:26):
to navigate their environment and going back a
few years when we first had Tiddy Farm
I was doing a lot of teaching particularly
at animal shelters like Battersea, Battersea is one
of our oldest and most famous shelters here
in the world, yeah here in the UK
and I was teaching a two-day workshop
(05:47):
and one of the last dogs that came
in for an assessment because I by then
was being able to look at coat patterns
and say hang on a minute this dog
needs a veterinary evaluation because the coat will
change direction where there's a loss of mobility
through the skin and that might be because
of diseases like arthritis or micro traumas, little
(06:11):
muscle tears, it could also be to do
with you know the health conditions and issues
with the hormone system or all of that
so people are asking me to come and
teach those observations to staff members and to
training clubs and I was getting to share
through PowerPoints and stuff and seminars and alongside
(06:34):
some amazing people in the world of behavior
so again very much learning experience for me.
So at Battersea this final dog came in
on day one of this workshop and he
was pulling into his flat collar and his
eyes were bulging, pulling into a flat collar
can increase the pressure behind the eye and
I said I really wanted to transition him
(06:55):
to a harness if that was appropriate and
the caregiver who had been looking after him
only for a few days said yeah I
didn't think that was going to be a
problem and he went to put a harness
on this dog Oscar and Oscar erupted and
I felt awful I had bleed and I
had quickly threaded a second knee through the
(07:17):
collar and through that thing to an assistant
and this person had to back away and
did all the right things disengaging and lowering
posture and looking away but Oscar was fixated
on this caregiver and I just thought oh
my gosh this is absolutely horrific because there's
a high chance that this dog isn't going
(07:40):
to make it through the assessment process because
Battersea never refused a dog and they were
always realistic and honest about their euthanasia policy
and I said to their head of behavior
look I feel that we've blown this we
missed the fact that this dog was potentially
so stressed and I'd really like to give
(08:01):
him a really nice day tomorrow and I
also understand why you know he's in for
assessment he'd been picked up as a stray
he's probably not gonna be successfully rehomed 18
month old big brindle bull breed in London
and the head of behavior said yeah yeah
of course he can do part two of
the workshop tomorrow I just wanted to give
(08:22):
him a bit of peace and I was
thinking okay so it was proximity of people
but he was okay with us holding the
lead was it something novel going to touch
his body how can we influence the tactile
system and overnight I was thinking you know
we've got to do something we've got to
do something to give this dog a good
experience to help him feel safe and hopefully
(08:43):
start to relax a bit in what's obviously
a very stressful environment for him so next
morning I got anything we could you know
we're talking you know 2000 2001 dog food
bags you know the that were going out
to the bin the mats from car footwells
(09:03):
blankets you know any different texture that we
could find because I knew from my human
learning that actually putting different textures on the
soles of people's feet really had quite a
profound impact on the brain particularly where people
had disease states that were impairing cognition and
impairing movement and I knew it's very powerful
part of therapy for some people and I
(09:26):
was thinking why aren't we doing this with
dogs why aren't we doing this with dogs
so Oscar was the one that just started
that whole thing off we got pallets covered
them so he didn't get his feet caught
between the slats got anything that would just
give him a different sensory experience and give
him something to feel and think about instead
(09:46):
of the stress of being handled by unfamiliar
people in this overwhelming environment and I put
two leads on him threaded ones through the
collar and asked the caregiver from the day
before whether he wants to reconnect with his
dog and he did because he felt terrible
as well and we just said we're just
gonna let him move we've had all this
stuff laid out in this concrete paddock it
(10:08):
was before this amazing refurb happened at the
London site in Battersea and we just let
this dog move and we just moved with
him we weren't trying to steer him we
weren't trying to lure him we were just
moving we had him on the lead for
everybody's safety and as he started to touch
different things and step onto and off their
pallet his whole posture started to change got
(10:32):
his head down he was sniffing he really
started to become more focused in his movement
and he suddenly looked at the caregiver and
he started wagging his tail well we all
wanted to burst into tears because clearly the
dog had been so stressed yesterday that we
completely blown it didn't realize how stressed he'd
(10:53):
been coming in maybe we knew he was
stressed completely blew it and added more pressure
when we were trying to take pressure off
him by putting him in a harness getting
the pressure off his neck but he hadn't
even recognized who that caregiver was in that
moment so he was wagging his tail and
oh my gosh he was amazing and everything
(11:15):
was different in that session it was peaceful
it was incredible and a month or so
later I was teaching another workshop there and
I said to the head of behavior I
said dare I ask what happened to Oscar
I get that he was not going to
necessarily be an easy dog to re-home
particularly as he wasn't able to cope in
kennels so she said oh just stick your
(11:36):
head out my office and look down that
pathway down there and there was Oscar and
his caregiver and they were both sitting leaning
against the wall and the guy had his
arm over Oscar's back and he was stroking
him on the chest and they were just
watching dogs coming down from the kennels to
the paddocks dogs going from the paddocks back
up to the kennels and he got successfully
(11:56):
re-homed and that dog is one of
those dogs who absolutely was one of the
foundation for what is ACE because that started
to take me on this whole sensory experience
and then I had a foster in 2008
called Cookie Dough I would foster some of
the puppies that were struggling at Battersea and
(12:17):
that she was really overwhelmed by anything that
touched her any noises visual information and people
were saying train more and I was doing
a lot of positive teaching obviously teaching her
lots of life skills that was much more
beneficial to me than having her grab my
hair and skin on my neck she could
(12:37):
really jump and my clothing when she was
overwhelmed but I fell in and I fell
into the trap of teaching her lots of
alternative behaviors and she was super smart super
clever but I then thankfully realized that actually
although I was teaching her some useful skills
I wasn't helping her relax I was actually
keeping her busy and engaged but just diverting
(13:00):
that engagement away from my body and that's
when people going train more train more no
if something isn't helping there's benefits here but
it's not helping her self-regulate and connect
and relax in the environment there's something missing
so you don't do more of the same
thing you have to start doing something different
(13:21):
and I looked online for sensory sensitivity information
going to the human field so unless we
have to look outside our own industry and
I came across the work of Jean Ayers
who's an American psychologist and occupational therapist who
developed the theory of sensory integration and looking
(13:45):
at that relationship between the brain and behavior
and recognizing sensory integrative dysfunction and I thought
my gosh this is it anything that any
sensory stimuli that is overwhelming is what is
driving all the behaviors where cookie does happen
to use her teeth and that's something we
(14:06):
need to consider in the industry it's a
sensory side of biting because we don't and
we know that children do it when they're
overwhelmed we know that adults who maybe have
dementia who are overwhelmed bite and yet with
dogs it's not a conversation that I often
hear so that's one of my passions discussing
the sensory side of the bite that led
(14:28):
me to integrate even more sensory experiences than
the different textures that I'd introduced to Oscar
a few years before and I was also
we had a sensory barn at Tilly farm
for visiting dogs so I recognized dogs found
it really difficult in novel environments to settle
but the minute we gave them space to
move and use their nose they were able
(14:48):
to feel much more relaxed more quickly and
that of course helped their caregivers relax so
when dogs are coming for one-to-one
experiences I was creating more sensory experiences this
was pre snuffle mat so we'd have rolled
up or bunched up towels in raised boxes
and people would say oh my dog's not
(15:09):
interested in exploring any puzzle games or anything
but the minute I'd lift stuff off the
floor dogs could suddenly access items that had
food sprinkled on them and I was also
using big mats long before looking mats were
made that were textured mats to stop food
bowls sliding on kitchen floors I was putting
(15:30):
pastes and stuff like that on those to
give the dog a different sensory experience with
their tongue because that was also something I'd
noticed with cookie dough that she didn't lick
anything she didn't use her tongue it was
all teeth teeth teeth teeth teeth in response
to sensory overload which probably included excessive fatigue
(15:53):
and potential gut pain as well and so
these outcomes were amazing the minute dogs could
access items physically and emotionally because a dog
that's not feeling safe isn't going to put
their head down either suddenly we were getting
completely different outcomes during the one-to-ones
and people were sharing more quickly why they'd
(16:15):
come to see me instead of just dropping
a sort of behavior bomb towards the end
of the session you know lots of people
that do one-to-one client sessions will
have gone through lots of tips and techniques
and then just as the sessions coming to
the end the caregiver might go oh and
I also need to ask you about something
(16:35):
quite you know serious significant and that's quite
a common theme that people will share the
bigger stuff towards the end as they know
that there's going to be a get out
and what was happening was that people were
sharing more more quickly because their dogs were
relaxed dogs were relaxing that had you know
really struggled in novel environments the outcomes were
(16:56):
amazing and I started to bring all these
sensory experiences together as a separate learning experience
for dogs like cookie dough we'd have sensory
stations going on on group workshops I was
teaching again with amazing outcomes with the caregivers
and the dogs just sharing these explorations in
(17:17):
a really peaceful way and then Henry arrived
in 2017 and brought everything together because he
actually started to offer learning behaviors and his
the way he navigated the world was very
similar to cookie dough who ended up staying
with me and I credit cookie dough and
(17:37):
Henry being the two dogs who really are
the founders of ACE because without them adding
even more amazing nuanced layers to the way
I was already exploring connecting with dogs ACE
free work wouldn't exist so now we have
a range of different what we call stations
where we might have a step that we
(17:59):
then have a secure snuffle mat on or
an IKEA play mat they're great where we'll
put three snuffle mats because cookie dough I
gave her one single snuffle mat would just
pick it up flick it with a terrier
you know brilliant death shake and all the
treats be scattered on the floor take me
longer to load one then it would take
(18:21):
her to dispatch them and I realized I
wasn't meeting her DNA needs it was actually
not a very enriching experience for her it
was a bit boring a bit frustrating maybe
and I watched her in the sensory barn
where the donkeys would spend the night and
I'd watch her scenting through the straw banks
on the trail of rats now she would
have been a serial killer had I left
(18:41):
her but we have an amazing array of
wildlife at the farm and I want everyone
to live peacefully together so she would never
get over and aroused around excuse me the
rat scent excuse me sorry but she really
enjoyed pushing her head through the straw banks
and I realized that the snuffle mat wasn't
facilitating that so I got someone to make
(19:03):
lots of thin snuffle mats one of our
ace advanced tutors Sue Williamson who's an amazing
groomer well worth exploring how she incorporates ace
into the grooming salon to give dogs a
break she's amazing so she made me loads
of thin snuffle mat put them in a
big pile and cookie dough loved pushing her
head through each layer to get the treats
(19:24):
so we're really looking at what information are
we learning from the dog to create an
enriching experience and increasing their sensory reference library
if you like so initially we put in
the ball pit that cookie inspired in 2008
but actually I discovered that lots of dogs
were worried by that noise we don't use
(19:45):
cardboard boxes packed with stuff because watching videos
of people who've set these kind of games
out for their dogs a lot of dogs
are actually worried by the noise and the
fact that the box moves so you see
this body tension and that's why I really
encourage people to observe look at what you're
actually seeing rather than focus on what you
(20:06):
believe is happening because sometimes in our bid
to enrich our dogs lives we inadvertently create
more frustration or body tension and nobody means
to do that of course so free work
is this amazing sensory adventure where we're building
at a pace to suit each individual dog
(20:26):
for some dogs we might just start with
three stations others we might start with five
or six and then we build and we
add in textures underfoot going back to what
Oscar taught me in you know 2000 2001
then we do low level platforms and low
level up and over boards and can really
(20:47):
start identifying physical challenges and there's something absolutely
extraordinary about that free work experience where it
really does help to integrate every single part
of the dogs amazing body and habits change
behavioral habits movement habits postural habits habits in
(21:09):
the caregiver changes in this incredible way that
really helps dogs connect with self connect with
their environment and connect with us in a
really useful and rewarding way so it's about
getting the dogs relaxed the owners relaxed and
(21:31):
observing picking up things to give us information
about the learner in front of us it's
giving the dogs a chance to be the
pilot of their own learning experiences and we're
there as kind of air traffic controllers to
guide them back to a safer flight path
should the need arise so we'll we'll have
(21:52):
for example dog came a few years ago
and was introduced as a nine-year-old
dog who had a high fray drive around
birds and would chase and hunt birds and
would also bark and lunge and spin when
(22:12):
on the lead if he saw another dog
so he's nine years old he's got well
-practiced behavioral responses to very specific stimuli birds
and unfamiliar dogs in his free work session
I filmed it for the caregiver and we
have like amazing layouts but we can also
have really simple layouts we could have many
versions and combination stations where we put a
(22:34):
lot of stuff together in one space so
you don't need a big space to be
able to do this but we were in
my indoor arena and it's open on two
sides and this dog was off lead and
enjoying this beautiful exploration with his caregiver and
one of our local Corvids flew down and
was first sitting on the low wall because
the Corvids know free work means food and
(22:56):
then the Corvid flew down and landed on
the surface of the arena and was just
hopping around on the outskirts of the free
work set up and the dog 100%
knew that bird was there and was so
engaged and so focused and so peaceful and
enjoying that connection with his caregiver that he
almost you know if a dog could have
(23:17):
shrugged his shoulders like whatever he'd have done
that and the caregiver was so amazed she
said I cannot believe what I'm seeing this
is absolutely extraordinary and we see this over
and over again with free work it is
mind-blowing she then when she went outside
wanted to see what his response would be
(23:38):
to the next dog that was going to
come out of their car and come into
the free work space so she waited and
her dog would have previously lunged and spun
and barked on the lead and he just
stood on a relaxed lead just watching this
other dog go by and we see this
over and over again there's something I've got
lots of theories I understand a little bit
about the nervous system I have a huge
(24:01):
passion for it I obviously have information I've
got from human experiences and learning and I'm
always reading and all roads kind of keep
coming back to free work that it that
kind of quiet engagement and navigating easy obstacles
it's not a challenge the obstacles is almost
(24:21):
the word easy items that are changing the
body posture can enhance learning in humans that's
100% what we see with dogs and
it's just a really extraordinary way of helping
dogs that would normally be scanning the environment
and really worried about unfamiliar people or worried
about the horses or needing to carry a
(24:43):
toy in their mouth all the time just
take that breath and really connect with self
and we're influencing you know so many sensory
systems through that kind of peaceful engagement it's
almost a bit like kind of sensory yoga
and we just help dogs sort of engage
the parasympathetic nervous system we can also highlight
(25:05):
habits in the caregiver as well as the
dog and see where that dog may be
in need of additional support first through vet
checks and then maybe through a nutritionist and
you know a veterinary physio or whatever massage
therapist or whatever is going to be of
benefit to the dog and it's amazing for
(25:25):
dogs of all ages from all backgrounds if
dogs have had a deprived start we can
start to fill in some of the gaps
dogs that might have been born in a
sob up sob gosh suboptimal environment and for
dogs like cookie dough who just found the
world utterly overwhelming that whole process really helped
to give her agency over those sensory experiences
(25:46):
and integrate those experiences in a way that
made life way more peaceful and rewarding for
her and we've also identified some amazing details
in the way dogs gather information that I
don't know how we've missed it in other
contexts and so we have people watching free
(26:09):
work sessions we only have a few people
we only take five dogs on each workshop
and up to ten spectators but nearly every
single dog that I've watched when we give
them the opportunity to explore through hopefully rewarding
engagements with our ace free work nearly every
single dog and I've watched thousands now when
(26:30):
they want to gather data from an unfamiliar
person they come into that space they glance
towards maybe two or three people watching then
they go and explore a tub filled with
mini snuffle mats at a height that's easy
for them to access then they start air
-sensing towards those one or two people and
maybe glancing towards another couple of people in
(26:52):
the room and then moving and exploring something
else in free work then they start this
casual walk by of the one or two
people they've air-sensed towards and then they
go back to free work they never walk
by everyone they never air-sense towards all
the spectators and then once they've done a
walk by they'll come and shoe scent or
(27:14):
scent the lower leg of the people they've
walked by and then maybe go and walk
by two people on the opposite side of
the room and go back to free work
this is this amazing sequence and then once
they've done lower leg sensing then they'll come
and scent from the hip up and then
orientate themselves and air-sense the breath and
people have got a unique breath just like
a fingerprint it's a unique signature and obviously
(27:37):
it's not appropriate for dogs to come up
and sniff everyone's breath but I actually wonder
if that's why a lot of dogs get
anxious and jump up to try and get
that sensory information really quickly and I also
think how often have we interrupted this beautiful
nuanced data gathering process by encouraging puppies to
(27:58):
jump up at us leaning over touching them
when all they wanted to do was sniff
a shoe if a dog's physically uncomfortable if
they've got arthritis or emotionally uncomfortable they might
not start with that shoe and lower leg
scent they might start with that hip and
upper body scenting but from the thousands of
(28:20):
dogs I've observed only two dogs have run
over to people straight away even though their
caregivers will always say oh my dog's gonna
come and mug you my dog always jumps
up my dog loves people and when I
hear people say my dog loves people he's
gonna jump all over you my immediate thought
is has this dog got body tension this
(28:42):
dog is under social pressure and that's often
to do with body sensitivity and that's what
I was starting to match with all the
observations that I was bringing from my human
background to the dog and the horse world
seeing these very clear patterns in the way
people were describing the animals and behavior that
(29:03):
they they were witnessing pairing that with what
I was actually seeing in terms of the
way the dogs would organize their body and
it's the same for humans we have the
same patterns of holding and if our faecious
muscles very expressive there's an emotional connection to
what we do with our shoulders and it's
same for the dogs so watching these dogs
(29:24):
do these amazing data-gathering explorations is mind
-blowing once you see it you can't unsee
it and it's not only in free work
that dogs will do this give them the
chance they'll do it when you're out and
about as well and the other thing that
was that's mind-blowing to me is the
finished clues and the dogs nearly always explore
(29:45):
for around 17 minutes if they're free work
aficionados they might go on for 20 but
most dogs will explore for around 17 minutes
and this was a really strong pattern when
we start to time these explorations and then
I started to look at the neuroscience behind
that and TED talks at 18 minutes for
(30:09):
a reason because you that's a good time
budget for absorbing information and then having a
break to process all of that and there
was a study done with people who are
in some stages of cognitive decline where if
they had 17 minutes sitting mindfully paying attention
to what they could feel in terms of
(30:31):
their clothing on their skin and paying attention
to their heart rate and their breath it
had a profound and positive impact on cognition
and the researchers didn't know why it was
happening but they knew it was happening and
what they also discovered was that those people
only had to have that experience once and
(30:53):
I'm reading that and I'm freaking out because
this is exactly what we're seeing in free
work profound changes in movement and behavior do
we then go hey we've resolved everything it's
not because practice makes perfect we want to
keep giving that dog that experience of peace
and for many caregivers they've never seen their
(31:15):
dog relaxed before and for many dogs they've
never felt relaxed before so that's also been
a hugely profound experience because the caregivers can
recognize what their dog can experience in terms
of relaxation and connection to self and therefore
identify more quickly when something is starting to
(31:36):
change and in ACE we really focus on
that dog's internal environment and the more we
focus on well-being in the internal environment
for a dog and that might include dietary
change absolutely addressing pain so many dogs are
living with chronic pain and it's overlooked because
(31:57):
people don't recognize what a painful landscape looks
like for a dog and that's one of
my passions you're pointing out these coat changes
changes the spread of the toe that tells
me there's uneven weight bearing through a particular
foot and that's why the toes have had
to splay on one side of the body
for example but giving yeah people that opportunity
(32:20):
to see their dogs in a relaxed way
and really focusing on that internal environment just
means that external environment is just naturally less
disruptive for these amazing animals and we really
focus on income for the dog and have
what I call the no attachment to outcome
(32:40):
where we're not focused on outcome we're just
focused on giving that dog a rewarding experience
shaping that free work set up to meet
their physical and emotional and cognitive needs and
letting nature work it's magic and it's a
life-changing experience and that's why I give
away so much information on it Ryan because
(33:03):
I'm so passionate about helping dogs find peace
and I think that comes from you're going
back to Cynthia and Erin the desire to
create peace even in very difficult times and
have a really peaceful environment is a huge
part of how I connect with dogs let's
help them find that sense of peace so
(33:26):
that they can recover more quickly if something
does upset or overexcite them you know stress
isn't always a negative thing body tensions isn't
always a negative thing can come from high
excitement joy exuberance but then the body gets
stuck in these habits and we need to
help the animal learn and experience what true
(33:49):
relaxation and true contentment feels like because once
the body knows what's available it can find
it again if we create the right environment
for them I know what I want to
ask you but I don't know what I
want to ask you I don't know how
(34:11):
to articulate it so gratitude to you in
advance for answering whatever comes out of my
mouth next okay you said the once you
see it you can't answer it and I'm
taking myself back to watching the free work
sessions that we did in Bourne UK October
(34:35):
I think last year yeah and you gave
an example there of the spread of the
toe that tells you there's uneven weight-bearing
and that's what blew me away so much
about it was you know I'm learning a
lot now that I didn't that adds to
and replaces the layers upon what I learned
back then in terms of the relaxation part
(34:56):
because the thing that blew me away there
was the in the moment awareness of the
things that I went I wasn't saying and
then thinking as a professional if I'm helping
an animal there's so much that I can
do in there and it's definitely better without
me and I'm doing a great job but
there's so much that I'm not seeing and
(35:17):
I can and I can only imagine that
it's true for for everyone because everyone has
their knowledge and experience that they can only
see what they can see and so for
me it was just in that in those
sessions just so much enjoyment from you going
look at that thing I was like didn't
see that didn't even know to look there
(35:37):
and look at how much information and you
said that you're not a you understand a
little bit about the nervous system and I
was like well that's not what I took
away from watching you do those sessions I
guess someone who knows a lot about these
things and it was exciting and so much
Sarah is yeah I love I love this
(35:58):
frequent times doing this podcast show running animal
training Academy traveling to conferences where and the
lost people say this I know that the
listeners of this show can relate to this
where you realize how little you know and
you realize how much scope there is to
expand and economy and start again from a
new learning position but for the listeners of
(36:21):
the show and I'm not so before I
ask them for I say this this episode
and everything you've shared so far has been
incredibly helpful and insightful and I think the
learners will take away a lot from it
but doesn't do justice to being there and
watching you work and then seeing them free
work in real life but we put people
(36:41):
in and also you shared was it with
cookie dough that you can train all these
behaviors and show ready new skills but there's
something missing there they are and I got
that sense as well like okay cool I
can teach new skills and I'm good at
that and doing maybe season all that kind
of stuff but I'm missing this because I
don't know this information I'm missing potentially important
(37:04):
parts of the Jigsaw puzzle which there's these
fleeting feelings of overwhelm we should the listeners
of this show start to go okay I
kind of understand free work I probably need
to dive into serious content more to understand
it more and see the level up and
then and then I've got to kind of
understand what to look for and what this
(37:25):
because because I remember I think I think
it was an example Sarah where the dogs
were looking and you're like when the dogs
looking look at this muscle on this back
leg and you'll see it you'll see it
flinching and I was up my you know
mind-blowing didn't even know that existed so
like there's learning all of those things about
what to look for because I imagine likes
a freeway what I'm trying to say that
(37:46):
a free work set up without that knowledge
you know where do we start to get
the knowledge to turn the free work session
into an opportunity for us to to see
what we're not seeing does that make sense
yes it does and lots of people will
come on it join an online course like
that's a really cool thing to start and
(38:07):
what I would say is if you're not
used to looking at animals I was lucky
because I grew up riding and we pay
attention to what movement sounds like you're hearing
for that lameness you're hearing for that toes
stuff and so I listened to dogs movement
as well but that was never taught in
the dog world that's why I'm so passionate
(38:29):
about this so I grew up seeing and
feeling and hearing things but just because of
connecting with horses if you're used to watching
animals in any capacity set up free work
and see what you can see as movement
slows down it is mind-blowing when a
dog stands at a station and as a
(38:49):
rule of thumb as a bit of a
guide there's no set rules we're working with
each individual dog the top of the station
shouldn't be any higher than the top of
the dog's front leg because we don't want
dogs to be stretching stretching creates tension stretching
tells the body its limitation and we're always
working with the possibility that's a Feldenkrais saying
(39:12):
you know don't show the body its limitation
always remind it of its potential so start
just putting out some snuffle mats at a
height where your dogs can access it and
what I'm looking for is can that dog
organize their body and have a leg at
each corner as I call it and ideally
and it's gonna vary slightly to do the
(39:34):
confirmation of the dog and also whatever genetic
predisposition to a slightly challenged confirmation that dog
might have inherited but for the majority of
dogs if you imagine they have paint on
their pads and if they're standing at a
station licking a sensory mat or a licky
(39:58):
mat provided the food's not caught in the
squares that just makes dogs bite at the
licky mats and can trigger frustration watch to
see where those paws are and if they
walked away what paw prints would you see
would you see a paw print at each
corner of a rectangle so your dog's got
(40:18):
the front feet parallel the back feet parallel
and a lovely length and back because that's
ideally what we're looking to support but we're
not luring we're letting nature do its amazing
thing and letting the body find that position
for itself or is the dog protecting their
lumbar spine their hips their knees and are
(40:39):
the back legs together but forward further forward
underneath the dog's body are those toes in
front of the knee and if the dog
then walked away would they be leaving four
little paw prints at the corner of a
square what we want is that rectangle that
longer frame can the dog even stand with
(41:03):
four legs in balance or are the wide
is there a wide stance in front and
back legs really close together because again they're
protecting maybe the lower back or have they
always got the right hind habitually out to
the side perhaps and then maybe we start
to recognize oh look there's a coat color
change around that right hip and actually the
(41:25):
dog when invited to turn to the left
struggles because it can't actually lengthen the structures
on the right that's really interesting they're only
going around their free work in a clockwise
way or maybe only an anti-clockwise way
we start to see so much more detail
and that also Ryan helps us recognize the
(41:46):
difference between reward based training and rewarding education
the two are very different if I have
a dog that I've discovered cannot for any
reason turn to the right let's say you
can't turn to the right at all his
preference is to move anti-clockwise around my
free work setup and when licking can only
(42:07):
flex the head to the left the neck
to the left sorry never flexes the neck
to the right I can then say oh
my and this has happened this is what
the details that we see in free work
I can then say oh my goodness maybe
when I'm out walking this dog on a
line and the dog perceives a threat coming
towards them or in a field because they've
(42:28):
never seen a donkey before if I invite
that dog to turn to the right because
I'm habitually handling dogs on my left side
it actually doesn't matter how many rewards I
pair with that right-handed movement that movement
and that invitation to turn away is never
going to be a rewarding experience for the
dog because it's potentially painful because I'm asking
(42:52):
them to move in a direction that's not
easy and not only might it be uncomfortable
it's going to create more body tension and
dogs that are tense in the body and
or painful can't scent food so when we
say oh my dog can't eat when they're
out why because they're tense because maybe they're
(43:14):
painful because maybe we are adding pressure even
though we're trying to give them a good
experience so that just those details look at
the feet what are the ears doing where's
the tail is the tail in balance or
is the tail off to the right or
the left that's really common that one ear
(43:34):
will be less mobile the tail be hanging
off to one side and how does the
dog navigate that space do they go left
and right or do they have a very
clear preference and how does that then translate
to how we connect with them on the
line when we're furthering their education and experiences
if that is already making people go that's
(43:55):
too much information and I am trying to
give you 30 years experience in a you
know really tight time frame and I'm so
passionate about this I 100% share way
too much so apologies if people can't keep
up with the you know the information I'm
sharing but that's the joy of recording might
get to play it back and back go
(44:16):
and look at your photographs that you've got
of your dog who shared your life with
start looking at the sit look at the
sit and puppy hood up to however old
your dog might be or photographs that you
might have captured over the last few months
if your dog's new a new member of
your family because lots of dogs with undiagnosed
(44:38):
chronic pain will have a sloppy or slouchy
sit so they might only sit on one
hip or they might sit with their hind
legs past their front legs where they're sort
of they've rolled back on their pelvis or
maybe they can't sit and maybe when they
lie down they only ever lie on their
(45:00):
right side and start looking at information of
where does your dog choose to rest because
quite often we'll create a bed that might
actually not be so comfortable for the dog
we don't give them as much choice and
certainly we want to be mindful of any
hard bed that might be forcing the dog
to adopt a position that might not be
(45:20):
so comfortable so I go for soft beds
with raised sides on maybe a couple or
two or three sides so the dog can
rest their neck like a pillow but they've
also got the option to have a lower
side so we've got round beds with sides
raised beds with three sides to support the
dog, flat beds, chairs, we've got a whole
(45:42):
array of different stuff and it's really interesting
noting when the dogs choose what type of
bed and what positions they sleep in so
I want my dogs to be able to
sleep on their back, sleep on their left
side, their right side, flat out, curled up
and if we don't see that massive range
of sleep postures we've got to ask why
(46:03):
why is this dog unable to access a
variety of sleep positions like we do and
then what you see in sleep is often
what you'll see when the dogs are awake
in movement so what's your dog's dreaming?
Do they go into REM sleep, rapid eye
movement sleep and when they are dreaming what
(46:25):
parts of their body are twitching because when
Henry came to me it was evident he's
got some damage or maybe was born with
a problem with the right side of his
neck so his right ear doesn't or didn't
move as much, it's much better now as
his left and even when he was dreaming
his left ear would twitch and his right
ear wouldn't and we've had dogs with hip
(46:46):
dysplasia whose front legs twitch but their back
legs don't until they were on pain relief
and everything relaxed and then the back legs
were twitching in the sleep as well there's
so much information as I say everything you
could want to know about your companion is
there in front of you we've just got
to start observing it so I run an
online course called Ace Dog Detective and I'll
(47:07):
put one on probably towards the end of
the year it's one of my favorite full
courses to teach three weeks online going through
photographs people setting up free work uploading the
videos we give feedback and a dedicated Facebook
group it's such a fun course and it's
a life-changing course for dogs and people
(47:29):
and I can't guarantee what people will learn
from any experience but I can guarantee one
thing if you do the Ace Dog Detective
course or you come on a free work
workshop or you connect with some of our
amazing ace tutors who will do one-to
-ones online I guarantee you will never look
(47:50):
at your dog in the same way again
and it's really exciting but comes with a
health warning too because you may discover things
that are uncomfortable and guilt is a unfortunate
and unavoidable part of learning because when we
learn something new that's when we can have
regret and I look back at photographs and
(48:12):
I think how did I miss that but
I I see things in a different way
and I still miss stuff but like you
were saying it's exciting it's exciting when I
watch this data gathering pattern it's exciting when
we recognize the finished clues dogs start counter
-surfing they start staring at treat pouches that's
(48:34):
not them saying I want to learn more
that's often around that 17 minute mark where
they default to a well-practiced behavior that
requires no more thinking or processing because they
need a break from all the new experiences
and it's overwhelming and I look back at
my older photos of companions that we've had
(48:56):
and I just go I'm so sorry I
missed that but as we learn more we're
going to look back and realized how far
we've come because as you said you can't
know what you don't know you can't see
what you can't see and we have to
be mindful of the fact that any animal
is blessed to share their life with a
canine guardian or equine guardian or feline guardian
(49:19):
that is open to learning is a lucky
animal and we are blessed to have these
forgiving and giving souls in our life to
further our knowledge to everything they have to
share.
I remember before I went to your free
work session Leslie McDivitt said to me everyone
(49:41):
needs to do free work and I was
like well I'm definitely gonna go so I
am excited to hopefully have time to do
that with you in the next week in
the future that would be amazing I know
and I'm sold.
You are welcome anytime.
I'm sold from what I've seen and what
I've learned from you that what you're saying
is 100% true.
(50:01):
I think we've over complicated a lot of
stuff when it comes to canine education and
just stripping everything back just gives us permission
to sweat the small stuff and I say
we must sweat the small stuff and sweat
is stand back, watch, engage, acknowledge and teach
sweat.
(50:22):
We do need to sweat the small stuff
because all that information is there.
I used to do court case assessments for
section one and three of the Dangerous Dogs
Act and I'd see coat patterns and I'd
feel temperature changes and we'd get dogs reassessed
by vets really pinpointing where we could get
these dogs x-rayed or whatever to save
(50:45):
their lives in court and there was always
a reason why that bite had occurred.
There was a dog who when I was
watching him couldn't flex his neck to the
left and his left ear was really rigid
and I said and what when I was
assessing I never wanted to read any of
the reports I didn't want to read anything
(51:05):
from the police or witness reports I didn't
want to know anything about the dog I
didn't even want to talk to the guardian
I just wanted to assess the dog either
at Tinney Farm if they'd come to me
or in the kennels if they'd been seized
because I didn't want any voice in my
head other than the voice of that dog
and I could write down pretty well what
(51:28):
had happened because of all the little fun
things I would do I wouldn't provoke the
dogs and we can look at levels of
arousal through the provision of different toys and
food you have to provoke them we really
don't and it was amazing being able to
find all these details and realizing why the
dog had reacted when they were touched in
a very specific place and I feel very
(51:51):
lucky as well that I had all that
as a learning experience because literally every dog
could tell me the truth of their story
and then of course we could make sure
those dogs were pain-free that maybe their
diet was changed if they had dietary sensitivities
that can trigger behaviors that actually look like
(52:12):
it could be a hip issue but actually
it can be linked to discomfort in the
lower back because of the dietary sensitivity that's
my experience too so yeah all this information
is there and all this detail is there
and it's just amazing when we really do
sweat the small stuff and practice looking we
(52:32):
need to practice observing we're such a busy
species that we've forgotten that are looking with
peripheral vision we're so busy with central vision
focused and it's difficult when you're looking using
your central vision because actually your peripheral vision
is what is mainly designed to pick up
movement so we can actually see more detail
(52:55):
more relaxed we are and the more we
use all aspects of our visual system and
free work gives you the opportunity to be
relaxed and stand back and watch or join
your dog at the stations because then we
add learning layers we can teach all sorts
of skills in free work we join the
dog at their favorite station we include cheer
rags the counting game but very modified version
(53:18):
because we never need to count beyond one
so we teach all sorts of life skills
on the foundation of free work and it
says emerging evidence that it actually speeds up
learning improves recall it is mind-blowing and
I say this not because I came up
with it I don't think I came up
with it cookie dough and Henry and dogs
(53:39):
like Oscar and dogs like Sandy at the
RSPCA that switched me on to coat changes
linked with discomfort they're all the ones that
have created ace and cookie dough and Henry
are the ones that have really developed ace
free work so I promote it not because
it's my finding it's not I've just interpreted
(54:01):
what these amazing dogs have been sharing for
so many years it's their work and that's
why I'm happy to share it and give
it away because it was developed by dogs
for dogs and it needs to go back
to the dogs yeah and Sarah if I
could have cookie dough and Henry on the
podcast would but we have to invite you
(54:22):
to offer that interpretation hey I could keep
asking questions but I realize you know I
laughed or laughed internally or maybe when hmm
when when you see TED talks are intentionally
18 minutes so we appreciate you listening to
this podcast as a listener for the good
hours that we dive into these topics thank
(54:42):
you very much we've talked about ace online
and where people can go to Tilly farm
and some of the great learning opportunities that
you provide I just wanted to shout out
as well to an upcoming trip you have
to the US of a to speak at
yeah aggression and dogs conference do you want
to share a little bit more about it
(55:02):
yes I'm doing a presentation on yeah free
work and sensory side of the bite helping
to build dogs you know sensory reference library
and observations because in my experience dogs that
are really sensitive to the presence of unfamiliar
people and unfamiliar animals are really tight in
(55:24):
their body and just saying discomfort restricts and
comfort expands so I'm very lucky very honored
that Michael Cascio has invited me to share
some of that at the conference in September
and I can't wait amazing and that will
be yes September 26 to 28 you can
(55:45):
attend in person or live stream and we'll
put a link to that in the show
notes for this episode because if you can
I would highly encourage you to get along
to see Sarah at that event and just
as an added bonus you get a bunch
of other amazing speakers and presentations there as
well Michael Cascio is doing an amazing job
of putting that event on we're asking people
(56:07):
go online Sarah to do some of the
learning opportunities that you've mentioned animalcentrededucation.com but
also look at the Tiddy Farm website tiddyfarm
.org.uk because we have amazing ace tutors
some of whom started saying I'm not an
(56:27):
observant person but I love free work does
it matter that I haven't got very good
observations and I say if you recognize that
dog's a black sighthound that's your first observation
and all my amazing tutors are incredible with
observations now because we don't push people we
(56:47):
let people find their own learning style we
have the same principles with people that we
do with animals so we have amazing tutors
though they also run online courses and they're
listed on the Tiddy Farm website so please
you know visit that as well there's that's
an old website needs a lot of updating
actually but yeah my amazing certified tutors and
(57:11):
instructors run online courses on and off through
the year as well so there's nothing on
my platform that appeals please check out some
of the amazing offerings from the ACE teaching
team.
Fantastic and we will of course link to
all of us in the show notes as
well Sarah this has been so much fun
(57:32):
I'm so grateful that you said yes to
jumping on this show with me so thank
you from myself and on behalf of everyone
listening we really appreciate you taking the time
to come and hang out with us thank
you so much.
Thank you so much Ryan it's been an
absolute pleasure.
And thank you so much for listening as
(57:53):
well this is your host Ryan Cartlidge signing
off from this episode of the Animal Training
Academy podcast show we hope today's conversation inspired
you and equipped you with new tools for
your trainers toolbox remember every challenge in training
is an opportunity to learn and sharpen your
(58:14):
animal training geekery embrace the rough patches learn
from them and keep improving and don't forget
the path to growing your skills and expanding
your knowledge continues beyond this episode visit www
.atamember.com to join our supportive membership where
(58:38):
you will find a community of trainers just
like you together we're making a huge positive
difference in the lives of animal and human
learners worldwide until next time keep honing your
skills stay awesome and remember every interaction with
(58:59):
an animal human learner is your opportunity to
create ripples we're here cheering you on every
step of the way see you at the
next episode
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