June 30, 2025 • 62 mins
In this episode of the Animal Training Academy podcast, we are honoured to welcome back Chirag Patel - an internationally acclaimed behaviour and training consultant whose innovative work spans species, continents, and disciplines. Chirag is perhaps best known for creating the Bucket Game and for his deep commitment to ethical, science-based, cooperative care.
During this rich and thoughtful conversation, Chirag and host Ryan Cartlidge explore the origin story of the Bucket Game, the pivotal influence of Susan Friedman and other mentors, and the process of bringing empowerment and agency to animals through training. Chirag offers a rare behind-the-scenes look at the reflective practices that fuel his creativity and the radical behavioural lens through which he navigates the world.
Listeners are treated to discussions on maintaining innovation across a long career, embracing the individuality of each learner (human and non-human alike), the role of functional assessments in behavioural design, and the deeply personal journey of adopting behaviour analysis as a worldview.
What You’ll Discover in This Episode:
🪣 How a Target store and a German Shepherd helped spark the Bucket Game.
🪣 The lasting impact of Susan Friedman’s work on Chirag’s thinking and teaching.
🪣 Strategies for staying innovative without losing touch with foundational science.
🪣 The behavioural analytic process behind self-reflection and online feedback.
🪣 Chirag’s take on spirituality, radical acceptance, and applying ABA to everyday life.
Why This Episode is a Must-Listen:
Whether you’ve long admired Chirag Patel’s work or are encountering his ideas for the first time, this episode offers an unfiltered glimpse into the mindset of a behaviour professional who walks his talk. From deep philosophical insights to practical training gems, this is an episode you’ll want to revisit time and again.
Engage With Us:
Subscribe to the podcast, share this episode with fellow behaviour nerds, and join our global community at www.atamember.com as we continue to elevate our craft with compassion, curiosity, and science.
Links:
https://www.instagram.com/chiragpatelconsulting/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
Welcome to the Animal Training Academy podcast show.
I'm your host, Ryan Carledge, and I'm passionate
about helping you master your animal training skills
using the most positive and least intrusive approaches.
Here at ATA, we understand that navigating the
vast challenges you encounter in training requires a
(00:27):
comprehensive base of knowledge and experience.
It's common to face obstacles and rough patches
on your journey that can leave you feeling
overwhelmed and stressed.
Therefore, since 2015, we have been on a
mission to empower animal training geeks worldwide.
We've aided thousands in developing their skills, expanding
(00:51):
their knowledge, boosting their confidence, and maximizing their
positive impact on all the animal and human
learners they work with.
We are excited to do the same for
you.
Simply visit www.atamember.com, join our vibrant
(01:12):
community and geek out with us.
And of course, in the meantime, enjoy this
free podcast episode, as we explore new ways
to help you supercharge your training skills, grow
your knowledge and build your confidence so that
you can craft a life that positively impacts
(01:32):
every learner you encounter.
We'll start today's episode where I'll be talking
to one Chirag Patel.
Chirag is an internationally renowned behavior and training
consultant who began his career in 2004, helping
(01:54):
dogs and their people.
Today he works with a range of species,
both domestic and exotic in homes, zoos, labs
and organizations across the globe.
His clients have included Guide Dogs UK, The
Police, Dog Trusts, BC, SBCA, Kong and many
more.
Based in the UK, Chirag has taught workshops
(02:14):
and seminars across Europe, North America, Australia, Mexico
and the Middle East.
He holds a BSc of Honours in Veterinary
Sciences and a PG Cert in Clinical Animal
Behaviour, along with multiple advanced credentials.
A passionate advocate for ethical science-based behaviour
(02:35):
change, Chirag empowers both animals and humans through
low-stress cooperative care techniques.
He's been featured on BBC's Nightmare Pets SOS
and Cats and Dogs at War, and his
YouTube channel has reached over a million views,
offering free education to professionals and pet guardians
alike.
(02:56):
So without further ado, it is my very
great pleasure to welcome Chirag Patel back to
the ATA podcast show today, who's patiently waiting
by on the other side of the planet.
Chirag, thank you so much for taking the
time to come and hang out with us
again at Animal Training Academy.
Hi, Ryan.
Thank you very much.
I am so happy to be back.
(03:17):
It's such a happy place and our previous
experiences have been, I think, amazing.
I love them and they brought joy.
So I'm really looking forward to today's experience.
I say again, because Chirag, you're on, God,
I don't know, episode like 20 or 30
or something, up to 260, 270 now.
And did you know that your episode is
(03:38):
the most downloaded episode?
I think, I think it might be up
to about 20,000 or something downloads, something
ridiculous.
I can double check after.
But, um, I think it's heavily influenced by
its title, which has your name in it.
For one, you're very widely recognized and appreciated.
(04:00):
And two, it has the bucket game in
the title, which I think has potentially influenced,
I don't have any data on this.
So it's just a hypothesis.
It's a success.
Is that when you look at your YouTube
downloads, and maybe you haven't done this, it's
like the bucket game, one of the most
(04:21):
viewed?
Yeah.
So I'd like to think it's me.
No, I'm joking.
It's my environment.
It's definitely I think the bucket game on
YouTube, I think the muzzle video, the drop
and the bucket game, counting game are the
like the top ranking videos.
And because I haven't actually put too much
stuff out there about the bucket game, more
(04:44):
than the little snippets.
I think the search engine on Google search
for bucket game is searched widely.
But I think if I added more videos,
then probably it would be one of the
higher ranking videos.
And I'm assuming, so tell me if I'm
wrong, that when you created the bucket game,
you weren't like, I'm going to create something
(05:05):
that's really sticky, and it's gonna get a
high search result.
It was just random.
I mean, there was a bucket and it
was a game.
So you call it the bucket game.
It just kind of stuck.
Well, yeah, it's actually a funny story with.
So I think there's a number of different
(05:26):
environmental influences that were coming together and evoking
like my behaviors of training in certain ways.
And one of those I just heard Susan
Friedman speak, and she'd kind of turned my
world upside down in terms, oh, my God,
I thought I, I knew this stuff.
And Turtle Crown Empowerment.
And I left, I remember leaving going, oh,
(05:47):
how can I design protocols, or change protocols
that I teach already to include some of
this empowerment.
And one of the things I was doing
a nail clip with Kane, one of my
previous German Shepherds.
And I remember going, well, this food, and
I put the food in front, because he's
lying down, the foods in front means he's
not watching me.
When I turn around to do his back
(06:09):
feet, and move around his body, he's kind
of focused towards the food.
And then I was like, oh, I can
make this contingent.
So if he looks at the food, I
go to touch if he turns away, I
stop touching.
And so those thoughts came to me.
And I started to kind of use that
as a, a protocol.
(06:30):
And I was teaching for a workshop for
Sarah Fisher at Tilly Farm.
And Sarah Fisher is a beautiful, amazing human.
She goes, Oh, yeah, the other part of
the story was, I taught a workshop in
LA, and I'd gone to Target.
And in Target, they have the area where
it's like a supermarket, superstore, they have like
the shelf with the deals.
And I had walked in there with these
(06:51):
little buckets.
And I was like, oh, I need something
for the puppy workshop for our students to
practice.
And because I used to use like food
bowls, or little pots.
And so I got these little buckets.
And then whenever I was playing the game,
or teaching this, I was using these buckets.
And so hence, it started to become known,
like Sarah Fisher's like, what's that thing that
(07:11):
we did the other day in the workshop,
the bucket game.
And that's how the name came about was
the bucket game.
So I credit Sarah Fisher for the name,
and my visit to LA for the buckets
and Target, and Susan Friedman for helping inspire
my thinking of what changed my thinking behavior
(07:32):
and my outside behavior and how I was
working with my dog.
So yeah, all of those random variables coming
together.
I think I remember learning about empowerment from
Susan.
And I think it was from, was it
in LLA you learned that?
Or was it like in a conference talk?
No, actually, it was a conference talk.
(07:53):
And it was, I think, IAABC was the
first time I heard Susan.
And in the States, maybe in Boston, or
somewhere like that.
And again, I have to thank a trainer
in the UK called Nina Bondarenko, who's a
legend all by herself.
I don't know if she's been on the
podcast with you.
Definitely.
I highly recommend it.
Nina is amazing.
(08:14):
And has a fascinating history, fascinating history.
And she's a pioneer as well, in terms
of I think, like just before a lot
of like the positive shifts and stuff was
happening.
She was breeding rottweilers and training them, focusing
on more of a positive reinforcement approach.
But I thank her and I'm grateful for
her for, I remember writing to her 20,
(08:34):
like 21 years ago and saying, Oh, can
I come in?
I read some of your articles in K.
Lawrence's.
And again, so credit to K.
Lawrence.
There's so much gratitude here, because K.
Lawrence's used to have a magazine, a clicker
magazine.
And I remember reading some of the articles
in there.
And Nina Bondarenko had written some of those.
And I used to be like, thinking about
(08:55):
the dominant side of things.
And dogs were also part of these German
Shepherds, that's like the sexy side was the
Schutz and this stuff.
And so I was like, I'm so fascinated.
And I remember reading Nina Bondarenko's articles about
using clicker for that.
And so I met Nina, and then Nina
recommended that I join and go to a
conference that she's going to IABC in the
States, met Susan or heard Susan.
(09:17):
And so yeah, all these different environmental influences.
I am grateful for that shape to history
that allowed me to engage in the behaviors
I do.
I remember learning about the babies who move
their head in a certain way to trigger
(09:37):
the movement of a mobile above their head.
And how those individual babies in the study
that Susan shared, who had increased head movement,
had increased coo sounds and gas sounds and
sounds that one might attribute to happy internal
(09:59):
state within that baby.
That that was that what Susan talked about
this desk like my point was exactly that.
100% that I was telling that example.
And I love that.
Like I remember I used to share it
so much when I heard I was telling
everyone about it.
And it was just yeah, I that was
what that was actually one of the big
(10:20):
points of like, yeah, that really helped as
well.
And then you you learned about empowerment through
Susan, you brought in little buckets from the
sales table at a big store, I think
was a target, one of the big stores.
And then you started to look for ideas
(10:40):
about how you could implement that.
It made me curious when you were saying
that.
How do you how do you stay innovative?
And how do you?
And there's a reason I'm asking this question.
Because I think as careers go on, and
you learn protocols or procedures that work for
(11:01):
you, but potentially, if you pause and reflect
that you might see that you're skipping some
of the lower to reference Susan's work, some
of the lower levels of the humane hierarchy,
and reaching for procedures that are a little
(11:21):
bit more invasive.
And I think it takes something, which is
what I'm asking you about something to be
consistently aware of individualism, and being innovative and
hearing what others are doing, and then practically
applying that.
(11:42):
Because your learning history would arguably push against
that somewhat.
How do you how do you stay innovative?
Oh, that's such a great question.
And one answer I think I could, well,
one thing I think I've, I think I've
observed, I have observed is going through various
exercises, or how would I teach certain things
(12:04):
from a behavioural analytic perspective, and a contingency
analysis has hugely, really helped in terms of
when I started sitting down and going, so
when I started to learn about ABA, and
learn about, it's not just about learning theory,
it's not just operant conditioning, it's a bigger
field, and it's, there's so many more nuances.
And that aspect of function is important, analysing,
(12:27):
like MOs, SDs, behavioural consequences, and I started
to sit down and I would remember sitting
there for hours on different journeys.
And I'd like, okay, how do I teach
loose dishwalking?
How do I teach?
What do I do when a dog barks?
What do I do when X is happening
or Y is happening?
And do it for the human too, the
human learner.
And I would end up writing these ABCs
going, oh my god, I'm confused now and
then going back.
(12:48):
And as I started doing this going, oh,
what I was calling teaching a leave with
positive reinforcement, I'm actually using a lot of
extinction or setting up for extinction or using
negative punishment.
And oh, if I just did it this
way, and I put the B here, and
this was the A, suddenly, there's a positive
reinforcement contingency, or there's something different.
And so some of my kind of protocols
or things that I use have really just
(13:10):
come from, this is where I go back
to the fundamentals for me, the principles, the
functional assessments, the contingencies.
And as I asked the question, what is
the MO, the SD, behavioural consequence, what does
I want to set up for, what contingencies
do I want to arrange for?
And what behaviours do I want to promote?
Then it comes from, I think, also all
(13:31):
the learning history of watching other people, reading
from other people, hearing them talk.
These things are there, they've influenced you, they've
changed you in some way, when you've contacted
this material, the people, the social interactions, the
knowledge, and ideas appear, they come, I can't
take responsibility for the ideas, because they're not
(13:52):
really, like, if I didn't have the learning
history and the exposure to these different environmental
events, then maybe I would be doing something
very different.
So I think, again, it goes back to,
I think, something Ian Dunbar said to me
early on was, see as many different trainers
as possible, and go work with as many
different people who are different to you, and
(14:13):
don't just do what you believe in.
And that will be one of the best
things you can do.
And I think, I love that, because you
learn different ways to speak to people, different
ways to do different exercises, analyse why does
this person do this, and that person does
that, and then bring it back to science,
and work your way up.
And suddenly, I think that allows for so
much creativity, and innovation.
(14:34):
So I actually think what some people might
consider boring, or, ah, it's the basics, the
ABCs, I can't get anything new from that.
For me, that is the thing that allows
me to be innovative or creative.
So I don't know if that makes sense.
But that's, I think that's a huge one
for me.
Well, let's see if I'm picking up what
you're putting down.
(14:55):
Firstly, I like it.
I don't know where I got that from.
I remember hearing it somewhere.
Firstly, you reminded me of something I think
Michael Shikasho shared on a podcast episode with
us, where he said, like how much thought
he put into his sessions he's just had
on his travelling routines, and always had some,
(15:18):
I think, and I'll have to go back
and listen, because I've kind of moved out
of what Michael Shikasho said, and now saying
what I think Michael Shikasho would do.
But that is to have some questions on
board that are really empowering and growth orientated,
like, what did I do?
How can I do it better?
It sounds like you had this, you have
(15:40):
the same, that when you've got some space,
without any needs being placed upon you from
your environment, you can just attend to your
own thoughts, you're exploring what you've seen, and
trying to filter that through what you know,
from the behavioural analytical lens.
(16:01):
And that, that helps you be innovative.
Yeah, I would agree with that.
Being critical, not in a bad way, but
just, I think, questioning, what did I do?
Why did I do it?
What can I learn from this?
Is there something, what did I do that
I'm going to do again?
And why am I going to do it
again?
Am I doing it just because it's intuition
or in air quotes?
(16:23):
Or is there actually a reason that I
can, I'm aware of, and I can observe,
and I can attack, or I can verbalise.
And there are so many things that I
do that maybe I can't verbalise.
And why is that?
Am I not aware of exactly what I'm
doing?
Or how I'm doing it?
Or can being more aware of it, allow
(16:44):
me to be better?
And also, if I believe in a scientific
approach, and the assumptions and behaviours of a
scientist and the philosophies, one of those is
to kind of ask the question, why?
And where's the data?
And to always be critical, to allow us
to be, keep what we're doing, keep the
integrity in what we're doing.
(17:05):
So for me, that's super important is to
ask always, what can I learn from this?
What can I analyse?
And even kind of this a bit of
a sidetrack, but I think the world of
social media is super interesting.
And part of my journey has been social
media as well.
But say, for example, if someone puts a
comment that I might equate as rude, or
(17:26):
I'm going to decide it's something well, for
whatever reason, it could be aversive or rude,
or a number of different labels we could
put there, I might choose, actually, I'm going
to delete this comment, or I might reply
to it, whatever I decide to do, that's
a bit irrelevant.
But one of the things I will, I've
taken often do is I will take the
comment, I will write it down.
And then I'll read what I'll read, I'll
(17:47):
put it into bullet points, and basically go
objectively, what points are there in this comment
that I could evaluate?
So if the person said, oh, you're just
horrible, how can you work with marine mammals?
And why can't you work with domestic animals?
And why do you have to use food
like food to motivate the animals, then out
of those things, I will ask the questions
(18:08):
like, okay, what can I take here that
might just be more subjective comments that I
can't really test, I can't do much with,
and now I'm just going to kind of
put them aside and erase them.
Then I've got a bullet point of questions
like, is there something else I can use
other than food?
Am I always using just food?
Am I using animals meals for training alone?
(18:31):
And I just ask myself those questions and
see what answers I have.
So engaging that interaction.
And that for me, I really love that,
because I feel like it's an opportunity and
around environment arrangement to grow and be critical,
but in a good way.
And then I might say, actually, I disagree
with some of these statements.
But I don't need to reply back to
a person.
But for thank you for giving me the
(18:52):
opportunity to actually question what I do, and
give me an opportunity to reflect and self
reflect.
And so that I think, again, that reflection,
the analysis, asking those questions can be so
helpful.
And we can also start changing certain cues
in the environment from negative, more negative to
more positive.
(19:13):
Okay, so one thing I was curious about,
as you were saying that, how often would
you say you do that process?
How often would I say the process of
the social media comments, just analyzing everything, social
media comments, every time I think every time
I do social media comment, I would probably
(19:33):
like I don't go every day look for
through the comments.
But I have now tried to, so I
know if I read, if I read comments,
then I might sit there analyze it for
four hours or think about it and not
in a necessarily even a bad way.
But I want to work with my new
cat or take Niska for a walk or
go learn read a book.
(19:54):
And so I don't want to take away
for those.
So now I've arranged that, okay, there's certain
times where I'll go through my comments.
And I will take comments that are good
feedback and use those, they function as reinforcers
for wanting to make more content.
And but also, they also provide information to
me about what is it that people what
(20:16):
is it that people are picking up on
in those what comments are they making?
And why?
And is that a way to then capture
audience or speak to an audience?
And also then the critical, more critical comments?
I've seen that they're there?
Is this the right time to ask myself
under this context or under the conditions of
seeing critical comments, that should become a cue
(20:37):
for do I want to engage in them
now?
And I will decide, okay, no, not right
now, because there's other things I need to
do today.
But I'll put them on a list.
And later, I can sit down and go
through them.
And I have a system now how to
go through them.
So those systems have helped make it more
productive.
But I would say regularly, and I'd say
basically, every day in my life, most of
(20:58):
the time, I'm questioning why do I do
it?
Why did I do that?
After I did it?
Or usually not maybe sometimes not before, but
definitely afterwards.
It's like, wait, how did that go?
Why did that go like that?
So yeah.
And is that something that you've done since
a kid or something that a behavioral analytical
filter and knowledge acquisition has fostered in you?
(21:21):
Hmm, I don't know the answer to that.
I can't remember.
Like, I don't think I can accurately answer
that.
Because, you know, like my generic on like
the popular type wording would be I can't
remember.
So I probably just make something up as
we start talking of the current cues will
probably make me say something that might actually
(21:41):
be true.
So I don't know.
But I probably guess that definitely seeing a
scientific approach and a philosophy is important for
me to achieve where I want to go.
And it's a model that allows me to
bring change to myself to the learners I
work with.
And the field at large has definitely either
(22:02):
boosted that or been a huge part of
that.
But maybe there was parts of it that
I was doing early on as well.
But I can't Yeah, I don't know.
That's the short answer.
I don't know.
Yeah, I find it interesting, because I've never
had anyone share that process before.
So I don't know if anyone else does
(22:23):
that.
I don't think but I do know that.
Let me share an example.
When we had Ava Bertelsen out here, your
good friend Ava Bertelsen out here last year,
and we we put a questionnaire out to
our workshop attendees and said, Who do you
(22:44):
want to have out here?
Yours truly was represented the most in that
feedback.
And I attribute that to and let me
know how this lands.
I attribute that to your teaching ability, and
your ability to convey ideas.
(23:05):
And now I'm curious if that comes from
and I'm sure the answer is yes.
But tell me it's not comes from, in
part, the process you just described, and not
necessarily just the process you just described, but
the mindset behind the process you just described,
of being curious, and always looking to grow
(23:27):
and learn and improve.
How did those words land?
Improve?
I don't normally use that word.
Yeah, I, again, I probably say, it's hard
to have the data to say that's it.
But I would guess that might be part
of it.
(23:48):
Definitely.
It does.
Yeah, like, that could be part of it.
And I think, I suppose the difference is,
I suppose, if I look at what I'm,
because I never thought like, when someone asked
me to teach a workshop, it was Grisha
Stewart, actually, I think I was one of
the first people like to teach a workshop
abroad.
And I think I was teaching some UK
workshop because of the videos I did on
(24:10):
social media.
But I remember just being like, I don't
actually know why, like this one video.
There's so many other people could probably teach
this stuff better than me.
And then over the years, I kind of,
things have been selected to what is it
that I can offer, not necessarily what can
I offer, but what is it people are
getting to getting something, I'm getting invited back,
(24:31):
and trying to observe what are those things
that people are finding useful that could be
different from another seminar workshop.
And I would agree, I think one of
those differences is that people often comment on
is how things are very individual.
There's like, it's always like, we're breaking everything
(24:52):
down, but also keeping it practical.
And it's very individual.
And that definitely comes from, I think, as
I started to learn more about behaviour analysis,
and Susan's study of one, and the behaviour
analytic approach is the individual, that really opened
up a whole world for me of like,
wait, we're training puppy classes and saying socialization,
(25:15):
we kind of think we bought a puppy
in the socialization machine one end, if we
do socialization, right, it should come out as
a perfect puppy on the other end.
But each puppy is individual in terms of
genetics, biology and learning histories.
And so that's pretty much not really possible.
And how is it that sometimes we end
up just going, oh, we need to do
counter conditioning for that.
Or we need to, we have a dog
(25:35):
who's doing this, we need to jump to
this.
But what happens to the individuality?
And how do we approach that?
And I think that really has been a
huge thing for me.
And I think that's something that I'm really,
I'm very focused on is constantly questioning, what
are the variables at play?
What are the conditions?
What are we doing?
What's the data?
And part of that is, it may seem
(25:56):
a little bit different to the question you
asked, but I think it kind of circles
back in that, from behaviour analytic approach, you're
always questioning, you're always collecting data, analysing, and
observing and changing things.
And that reflects back to, okay, how do
I observe my own behaviour, or the environments
that I am in, and how they influence
(26:16):
my behaviour?
And what was different?
So yeah, I think that definitely, maybe is
definitely maybe, that makes me laugh.
That definitely maybe is an influencing variable.
But why I'm asking these questions, stems from
(26:38):
a belief, or mantra that I hold that,
if you see in someone else, some traits
that you value, and would find valuable to
grow within yourself in that space, then learning
(27:01):
about why that person behaves the way they
do, what their processes are.
I mean, imagine if everyone tomorrow just started
taking a verse of comments and doing a
process, like how it would change the world.
And so I'm just trying, I'm trying to,
I'm asking these questions to try to understand
how you operate as an operator, to see
(27:24):
what myself and the listeners can take away
to model some of the things that I
think have made you really successful.
Give me a sec, because I'm just, I
had a thought that, oh yes, about the
individual thing, right?
Like, so like, I'm glad you brought that
(27:45):
up, because I think it really stands out
to me as well.
And not only you, but as an individual,
the learning opportunities that I find most valuable
is when it is really broken down to
the individual and unpacking labels and filtering things
through that behavioral analytical lens.
But I know that's not true for everyone,
(28:07):
and some learners don't find as much value
in that.
And so I feel like this little bit
of swirling thoughts in my head, disorientation and
confusion, when I say, for me, that's needed
and required, but for others it's not.
And why is that?
(28:27):
That is a fascinating question.
And I think also, it's not, I think
functionally, there's some similarities between your statement about
if you see a trait or behaviors or
repertoires in this, from an individual trying to
study, like, how did that come about?
(28:48):
So that it could be something that could
be useful to me, or to you or
someone else.
I really like that.
And that's something that I think I've engaged
into those behaviors.
But then when I was thinking about ways
you're saying that, and I was thinking about
it, I was also thinking, okay, so there
are times where I've studied someone's behavior and
(29:10):
their environment, and going, what are the conditions
under which they were to engage in those
behaviors?
And can I replicate those and practice?
But then I also started to go, oh,
yeah, it's not as simple as going, I've
identified that some of these are the conditions,
because also, like, if you take a certain
stimulus, it could look the same.
And that's going to impact my friend's behavior,
(29:34):
or let's say your behavior.
You're my friend, count me as a friend.
And my behavior may be very differently.
And it could evoke different responses, different feelings,
different, it could be a different antecedent.
But it's the same stimulus, but the function
of it is slightly different.
And so part of it is identifying what
(29:54):
is that, what are the conditions, but also
what are, like, the groups of contingencies and
the previous history?
And what are the MOs in place?
And what's allowed for this stimulus to function
in the way it does for this individual?
And sometimes we may not really be able
to identify that and know that.
And so, yeah, I think it's almost like,
why for one person, will it land like
(30:17):
this?
And for another person will land like that?
I kind of sometimes, I don't go so
deep in that, because I don't really, I'm
not not going to know the answer.
And I don't know, part of me is
easy, or comfortable staying with the idea of
a radical behaviorist approach can start to offer
answers for those questions.
But it's not going to tell me exactly,
like, for this person, it was this without
(30:38):
the data.
And I don't have a way of collecting
that data.
So kind of just sticking to the more
the principle of if I would did want
to collect the data, this is what I'd
have to kind of look at.
But it's not really, really practical to collect
the data.
So I'm going to accept that I don't
like I won't be able to identify it.
But I can understand why it would land
differently for different people.
(30:58):
Although it could be similar stimulus, topography wise.
I don't know if actually, like, is that
still relevant to what we're discussing.
But that's what that's where.
Yeah, that's what that's where my thought process
went when you were saying that.
It made me think and potentially just because
it was on the tail end of your
(31:19):
description there about acceptance.
And I think that in our industry, it
can be challenging to accept other perspectives or
approaches.
You shared something on Instagram once and I
think it's top five, like, impactful things that
I've seen on social media shared by friends.
(31:40):
And that was like, can you read or
watch something without having any opinion as you're
reading or watching it?
Like, can you can you absorb that information
without filtering it through your your own experiences?
Part of that being judgmental reflections on differences
between your values and how you do things
(32:03):
versus what you're seeing and what you're absorbing.
And then it made me think of an
example the other day where I was very
tired.
It was a Sunday.
Some day, some day straight, I just hit
a wall and I'm like, my tank is
empty.
Me too.
There's nothing in the tank.
(32:23):
Right.
And this past Sunday was one of those
days.
I was like, I got I got nothing.
I just need to, like, do nothing today
in my pajamas, which is impossible when you
got kids.
But it was bedtime.
Or pets.
Or just an hour of life.
And I had just gone to bed and
I was so tired.
And I put my one year old to
(32:44):
bed, Kaya, and gone into a deep sleep,
like lying next to her, putting her to
sleep.
Then I had to get up, do things,
go back to bed, just falling asleep.
Someone walks in, my five year old, crying.
I don't know if she had a bad
dream or something.
And I was I was I was on
empty.
And I was and I was like, I'm
here.
Someone, what do you need?
Water.
OK, go get your water.
(33:04):
She runs into her room.
She gets a toilet roll, brings it to
me.
I'm like, wait, what's a toilet roll?
And I was like, I need water.
I was like, go get your water.
And she was very upset.
I was like, just get into bed, Summer,
because she comes into my room and there's
a spare bed.
She gets into spare bed, sleeps in the
bedroom with me in another bed.
And in the morning, I was like, she
was really upset.
Like she needed some company.
(33:25):
But I was on empty that day.
And I'm human.
And when she woke up, I was like,
sorry, I didn't cuddle you.
And gave her a big hug and said,
apologize for that.
Daddy gets frustrated and tired, too.
But I'm sorry.
But then one thing I thought about in
that moment was just radical acceptance.
Like, that's what it was.
I was there.
(33:45):
I wasn't perfect, but I was there.
And that's what happened.
Is that I'm sharing this because I'm curious.
Like this idea of radical acceptance was shared
with me.
And I was like, oh, that's really interesting.
And then I watch you and I hear
you talk, and I'm just curious if that's
of acceptance.
And I feel like I've observed that in
(34:06):
you.
I feel like you're somebody that comes to
mind when I think about this term radical
acceptance.
How does that land with you?
So a few different things.
First one, I've not heard the term radical
acceptance before.
So radical, yes, from a radical behaviorist perspective,
Skinner's philosophy of behavior and radical or meaning
(34:27):
all encompassing, thoroughgoing.
So from that perspective, that's where kind of
my learning issue radical is.
Could I ask this in terms of like,
obviously, from your examples and descriptions of what
you said, I could start to maybe go,
oh, that fits under the is that what
fits under the category of the label radical
(34:47):
in this context?
But is there, like, if I were to
ask you, what is radical acceptance, just because
I'm interested?
Don't know.
But two things, I'm going to answer it
based on my understanding that I have.
But I just want to express gratitude for
what you just did there.
I think it's so valuable to have someone
(35:08):
to question and ask and check clarity on
on things like that, because that's so important
to what we do.
And I missed an opportunity there to say
when I say radical behaviorism, what I mean
is, so think not radical behaviorism, radical acceptance
is my learning history coming up.
(35:30):
So I appreciate the opportunity to to to
have that question.
Thank you.
Great.
I love I love what you just modeled
for our listeners.
I think that was awesome.
So just just acceptance.
So rather than I wish that was different,
it would be like that's that that was
what it was.
And then you can add some other frames
(35:50):
there, like I was there.
I care.
This is what I'm thinking.
These things can't change that.
That's what it was.
I accept it.
Is that that's I need to articulate a
better answer than that over time because I'm
just resonating with me.
But for now, that's what I've got.
Yeah.
And that fits to what I was going
to put.
I would put under a label based on
what I heard you talk about previously.
(36:10):
And I'm also talking like chatting with our
friend.
I call him chat GPT.
You call him chatter.
As a chat, GPT was radical acceptance and
chat GPT is like radical acceptance, a psychological
concept that means fully and completely.
So thorough going, accepting reality as it is
without resistance, judgment or avoidance, even when the
(36:33):
reality is painful, unpleasant.
And then it comes from dialectic behavioral therapy
and it gives some names and then it
says a definition.
Radical acceptance is letting go of fighting reality
and instead of and instead choosing to accept
it deeply, wholly and completely.
And then it goes on to give more
things.
But, yeah, I would say that is something
(36:57):
I practice.
And again, we could question like, where did
that come from?
What did I read?
What did the environments have shaped that?
But yes, I would say I'm like when
I come across a situation, one of the
big things I actually even hear myself thinking
or observe myself thinking or saying or saying
(37:18):
out loud is.
It is what it is or this is
this is what it is right now.
And anything else would be crazy to kind
of go, we should stick like, yeah, I
could wish and it's OK to wish it's
different.
I accept that.
But let's just go practically.
What do I have in front of me?
Where do I want to go and what
(37:41):
are the steps here from this place to
this place?
And it's OK to be in this place.
And like you said, it was OK to.
Oh, I shouted at my dog the other
day.
I said, I'll stop it or whatever.
And OK, that happened.
It's OK.
And the other part of that, I suppose
for me as well, being as I start
to as a behaviorist, a behaviorist and focusing
(38:03):
on a scientific perspective, observation is so important.
Like the first level of experimentation is observation
and observation isn't judgment.
It's not analysis.
It's so to start with is I've really
been happy in practicing.
If I watch a video or I read
something, let me just start by observing what's
(38:25):
there based on the history I have and
the ability I have to observe based on
my learning.
And I can practice those skills.
But so I think, yeah, often I'll start
with, OK, let's just start to observe.
OK, then what's the what correlations or what
hypotheses can I draw from the data I
currently have?
What's my independent independent variables?
(38:45):
And I apply that to my life.
So for me, essentially, the frame of radical
behavior, the assumptions of radical behaviorism and Skinner's
behaviorism and a scientific approach is not my
job or why it's my life.
I can't see life.
For me, it's like Susan's example of whether
(39:07):
you believe in gravity or not exist, taking
that line of what's the right words of
the thing, taking that kind of stream of
thinking to behaviorism and scientific approach.
I mean, that's the way I see the
world.
That's the way it is, not just from
the morning I wake up to the time
I go to bed, when I'm eating, drinking,
everything I do for me is that frame.
(39:28):
And I know I've been like I've dated
someone previously and I was talking to them
and I was like, they're like, but isn't
the joy in sometimes just accepting like the
I'm not this, not quoting word for word,
but isn't the joy in not analyzing the
joy in just accepting it?
For me and my learning history, that brings
(39:51):
me no joy.
For me, the joy comes from asking questions
and analyzing, and that brings a lot of
joy for me.
And also, rather than for me, and again,
it's not right or wrong, my learning history
is different, everyone's individual.
For me, saying I don't know and actually
sitting with the answer I don't know.
And if I don't have a system of,
(40:11):
or actually not even a system, I do
have a system.
The system is the formulating hypotheses using a
scientific approach and radical behaviorist approach, is if
I don't know how to apply that to
answer the question, or I don't have the
ability to analyze the thing that's happening with
this frame right now, this model, this system,
(40:31):
I'm happy to sit there with I don't
know, and I will find out another way
rather than sitting there and engaging in more
thinking behavior.
But it could have been this, it could
have been that, why didn't this person call
me back?
And actually, I don't know why the person
didn't call me back.
And I don't have the ability to collect
that data, or I do if I phone
them and ask them, or even if I
ask someone and they say something, it doesn't
mean that's what it was.
(40:52):
That's just verbal behavior, not just, that's verbal
behavior.
I'm not going to put a camera and
watch what they were doing, what their conditions
were.
And so there are so many things that
I don't have the data.
And for me, I suppose the reason I'm
saying that is reading the definition and hearing
from yourself about radical acceptance.
I would say, yeah, I do practice that
(41:12):
a lot.
And I maybe have also given some explanations
of why.
I remember last time we were connected on
this podcast, we talked about Ika Toll and
the power of now.
And I'm curious if, I mean, I know
my wife, Sapphire, bless her, love her, is
(41:33):
questioning sometimes of my analytical mind on all
behavior and the differences in the way she
views the world and how that can create
friction sometimes.
And I'm also remembering back to doing a
panel discussion with Susan and four or five
(41:57):
other LLA instructors.
We did LLA as a community in our
academy.
And that was where I really, I think
it was Megan, I can't remember Megan's name
now, Sanders, who said something like, ABA is
more than just an animal training tool.
(42:17):
It's a way you filter the world.
And that was only a couple of years
ago.
And I was like, oh yeah, I never
really thought about that.
It's my whole way of thinking now for
me as an individual.
I think it's very different than being in
your brain, but for me, it's how I
filter the world.
So I have a question for you.
(42:37):
And I learned from previous experiences and asked
Chaz at the definition of his label before
I asked the question for you so I
can relate to you.
Would you say, and I know we're meant
to talk about Nala the cat today, but
here we are, would you say that you're
spiritual?
Now spiritual, as ChatGPT defines it, relates to
(42:59):
anything related to the human spirit or soul,
especially as distinct from physical material things.
It often involves a sense of connection to
something greater than oneself, which can include religious
faith, personal growth, inner peace, or search for
meaning and purpose.
I love, this is another reason I love
coming back to these, to you and the
(43:22):
podcast is these questions are amazing.
So yes and no.
So the definition you gave, if I'm now
going, okay, that's the definition I have in
front of me.
There's a lot of probably not is where
I'm kind of moving the dial if it's
(43:42):
like, I can slide it backwards and forwards
to not spiritual to spiritual and kind of
sliding it to the not so spiritual side
based on that definition.
But at the same time, when you mentioned
Eckhart Tolle, and I do love Eckhart Tolle,
I say love, like I've listened to his
book now many times and I will listen
(44:03):
to it and I find that it's an
antecedent arrangement to promote and evoke behaviors that
I find super useful engaging in a contact
and reinforces and helped me hugely in many
situations.
But I suppose every time I hear people
or see things or read things, I'm translating
back to a behavior analytic framework, asking the
question, how does this like easier than these
(44:24):
words?
And I think actually a lot of, if
you change the wording and you change the
terminology, and like for me that it's easy
to translate sometimes and actually it works really
well.
There's a lot of kind of behavior analytic
assumptions and it just transfers over really, really
well for me.
(44:46):
And he talks a lot about being spiritual
and spirituality.
But then so from the definition you were
giving when I was hearing it, I was
like, wait, I don't actually what is the
soul?
And what is the spirit?
And for me that none of that is
everything for me is physical.
I don't believe there is a non-physical
entity and meaning even if we can't like
(45:10):
study it right now, we haven't found the
technology or the tools to be able to
study in that way.
But I don't believe anything is non-physical.
I do believe everything is physical and on
this planet, that's one of my assumptions.
And yeah, so that's one of my views
of the world.
I'm not saying I'm right, but that's just
(45:30):
how I approach the world.
So yeah.
It's given a couple of different contexts where
you could like filter that definition through.
So one of them is pertaining to one's
inner life values and emotional or physiological wellbeing.
Do you feel like understanding behavior analysis has
(45:55):
given you improved psychological wellbeing?
I can give a definition for that if
you want.
I love it.
And also it's like people on the podcast
can't see the camera-to-camera interaction as
well.
And I just love the patients because sometimes
the smiles happen between both of us as
(46:15):
in like when either I'm saying something and
there's a smile on the other side.
That brings me a lot of joy as
well.
And I would say, yes, I would say
ABA has.
And again, ABA has helped me look at,
so I struggled with the discussion of emotion
from a child.
I can remember this, like that when people
(46:39):
talked about emotions, even as a young child,
I really struggled to, like if someone said
emotional, but what is like, and not necessarily
what is that, like I would be asking
it now in the same way.
But I don't know, there's something that I
struggled with.
And when people talked about these emotions and
things, it just, yeah, like for a lot
of people would be like, yeah, yeah, emotions.
And for me, I was like, and even
(47:00):
to a post-grad level, I remember being
at Lincoln, University of Lincoln.
So I did the MSc program there and
I didn't really complete most of the assignments.
And so I got a post-grad certificate,
but I was there for the whole year
and attended all the classes.
But there's a huge emphasis on discussion of
emotion and Panksett's model and things like that.
And I remember even then, and this was
like maybe 15 years ago, 18, it's like
(47:22):
15 to, I don't know, 16, 17 years
ago.
But so not that long ago.
But I even remember sitting there in the
class going, it's just like, is I, I
don't get it.
Like I was struggling, like this whole emotional
aspect of it, or like the way emotion
was being, and I did A-level, studied
psychology at A-level, like at college in
the UK.
(47:43):
And even then, I mean, they're talking about
it, just so many things that didn't kind
of fit together.
And then when I learned about behavior analysis
and how behavior analysis looks at, can study,
how do, would we go to study emotions
from a behavior analytic framework?
For me, it's something just everything fit, like
it just suddenly life made sense.
(48:03):
And so I would say a hundred percent,
because like, yeah, I have experiences, private experiences,
or internal experiences that I might label as
frustration or anxiety or happy, sad, whatever feelings,
emotions.
But using the framework from a behavior analytic
perspective, and it's not just one framework from
(48:26):
a behavior perspective, but using one of those
frameworks to look at emotions and study like,
okay, there's this observational private event.
There's my verbal behavior of me tacting or
saying, this is what I'm observing inside.
And now that doesn't necessarily, I could say,
oh, I feel sad, but it doesn't actually,
I might not be describing what I'm feeling
(48:47):
inside.
I might be saying that because then I,
someone asked a certain question or someone walks
away from me or someone gives me a
hug or something.
So it could be maintained by the reinforcers,
me saying that, but also, so being able
to analyze my internal environmental experiences from that
framework has been hugely helpful to me.
(49:07):
And I think it allows me to navigate
the world in a way that I'm able
to feel less anxious in context of situations
or less frustrated, or I still feel lots
of emotions and lots of things in lots
of different contexts.
But I feel like, not I feel like,
I have observed that using a behavior analytic
(49:32):
and especially a radical behavioristic framework to look
at this as being huge for me.
So I would say the short answer is
yes, behavior analysis definitely helped me with looking
at the inside.
What is it about behavior analysis that helps
you, do you think?
Two prompts for you.
Is it the connections that helps one form
(49:53):
between behavior and the environment?
And the second prompt, is it language and
vocabulary?
Yeah.
So, and I think there's a third thing
to add to that.
So Skinner, I keep mentioning Skinner.
So Skinner, I think is celebrated not just
for his work in behavior as a behaviorist
(50:16):
or whatever label we want to use in
that category.
But as a scientist and his work in
terms of studying, making this field of studying
behavior science, bringing science, because like there were
a lot of people studying behavior and psychology,
looking at behavior, but not necessarily with the
rigor of science that Skinner brought to the
(50:37):
table.
And for me, like in science and human
behavior in that book, it's a lot about
bringing the science to studying behavior and how
to look at it from that perspective.
So it's not, I think that's one huge
part is being a scientist and a scientist
practitioner, bringing the behaviorist of a scientist to
(50:59):
the table, using them, engaging in them, having
cues in the environment that allow me to
behave in those ways.
So I think those philosophies and assumptions of
a scientist, they're the things that are, I
think, hugely impactful.
And then the science of behavior change used
is the fundamental principles of like studying behavior
(51:19):
from a scientific lens, a perspective.
And so I think then the idea behind
the study of behavior as looking at behavior,
environmental relations, looking at behavior in the environment
and how they're related and what can I
learn from that and what can I analyze
and bring?
And also the idea of kind of bringing,
(51:41):
how can I bring the inside out to
study it?
How can I, so rather than saying, oh,
I'm frustrated and then trying to study frustration
as this non-physical thing that we can't
see, and we have to go to the
mind and inside the, and go into like
the, maybe a psychoanalysis, some other kind of
perspective is wait, what can I actually bring
(52:03):
from the inside to the out?
I can study the, what I'm describing as
this frustration issue that I have, we're experiencing.
And by doing that, I've been able to
contact reinforcers that I don't, I don't think
I observed that I was able to contact
with the prior learning history of trying to
(52:24):
solve my frustration by trying to understand the
frustration.
And so I think, yeah, just for me,
it's where the answers come more easily.
And like, again, part of the answers might
be, I don't know, but I really, that
also allows me to feel peaceful as opposed
to making up some story.
(52:45):
And then that becomes an antecedent arrangement for
the story to escalate in different ways.
And then we're living in like, what's going
to kind of call this psychic realm or
world.
And it's far from reality.
And I think that happens a lot.
And also my observations of, and it's not
judgment, it's just an observation of, I like
even say my mom sometimes to be like,
(53:06):
oh, this happened and this happened.
And it's like, wait, if we take, go
back to this story and go, where's the
data?
There's so many assumptions that can't be observed.
And the things have been kind of made
up, not in a bad way, but there's
a learning history with that story.
And for me, it gives me a headache
or kind of causes me like more anxiety
going, oh my God, like this, because I
can't even listen to this because we're now
(53:27):
at this layer up here.
And in order for me to go anywhere,
I need to come right from back to
foundations and actually look at the real basic
layers and take away, this is what we're
making up.
This is what we know is what we
don't know.
And then building up from there.
So I think, yeah, those kinds of things
have really helped.
Yeah.
I asked about that.
That's, I love, well, one of the main
(53:49):
things I love about what you just said
is that it allows you to be able
to contact reinforcers that you weren't able to
contact before, which is cool when you think
about knowledge.
And then my question about language was out
of curiosity, because of my own journey on
personal development at the moment and just realizing
that, so here's an example of where I've
(54:11):
used language in your situation with your, your
mother, again, no judgment.
I had the same with my mom, where
I love my mom, but where you get
disorientated because, and I think that comes from
a perception of the world, clashing with your
(54:32):
perception of the world or the way you
see things.
And then suddenly you question your own perception
and it becomes a little bit disorientating.
And I've called that, I've, I've given that
a name and that name is a clarity
squeeze, a clarity squeeze.
And then I've got, and now that's a
cue to do a behavior.
And that behavior is to just speak into
(54:57):
my phone's voice dictation app and record what
happened.
And then revisit that later at a time
where I can unpack it and get clarity
around that situation so that I can circle,
so that if I'm in a context that
shares similarities in the future, it can, I
can navigate that better.
That, that's where that question about language came
(55:20):
from in terms of, terms of ABA.
Gone off on a major, major tangent.
I think we've been going for about an
hour.
I'm sorry, Chirag, I really wanted to talk
about Nala the cat today.
I am glad we did it.
I love the fact that this is true
to the conversation we're having about accepting what
is and going this way rather than, and
actually I think it's made for an amazing
(55:41):
conversation because it's something that I may be
like, we don't necessarily hear on a podcast
or story sometimes.
And it's just like going, I think there's
so many useful things to kind of think
about and study there.
And so please don't apologize for me.
It's amazing.
And I really appreciate the opportunity to have
this environment to actually engage in some of
(56:03):
these conversations because it's not something that is
an environment that's easy to find.
And you're so good at the way you're
asking questions and just so easy to converse
with.
I, for me, there's so many reinforcers there
that my behavior contacts.
So I am grateful.
Well, I'm grateful too.
I think I've learned a lot of things.
Something I'll take away today is the reflection
(56:27):
on comments on social media that you might
find aversive.
And then, because that is a clarity squeeze.
That is your reality and some friction between
that reality and somebody else's reality.
And I'll do a Ryan Cartlidge modified version
(56:48):
of that.
Hey, talking about words and labels and bringing
the outside, bringing, sorry, bringing the inside out.
We're going to be doing that on the
16th of July.
So make sure we release this episode beforehand
with the label, reactive, reactivity.
(57:09):
Can you share with the listeners about this
exciting event happening inside the Animal Training Academy
members only area?
Yes.
So super exciting.
I think we've labeled it reacting to reactivity
and it's looking at this, this concept, this
idea that is often very common currently in
(57:31):
the training world about reactivity and reactive dogs.
And is it that the dogs are reactive
or are they engaging reactive behaviors?
Is reactivity a thing and is there a
protocol that we need to find to address
reactivity?
And I'm going to try and keep it
practical from the perspective of, I'm going to
(57:54):
use some videos that of dogs who maybe
could be labeled, fall under the typical label
of reactive.
And I'm going to show some work with
these dogs in like real time, unedited videos.
And we're going to watch like moment to
moment interactions and discuss them.
And I think that will be a great
(58:14):
vehicle, a great environmental arrangement to kind of
question things like what is reactivity and the
common beliefs and verbal behavior around reactivity.
So I can't wait.
I'm really excited.
Amazing.
We can't wait either.
I know that it's going to be a
very popular topic and event and guest speaker
for our members.
(58:36):
And if you're the listener and not already
a member and interested in joining, I'll pop
some links in the write-up for this
episode.
So you can come and hang out with
us as well.
Before we officially wrap up Chirag, do you
want to share with the listeners where they
can go online to find you?
If there's any events coming up that you
(58:57):
want to highlight for the listeners, then share
what the listeners can do after listening the
show to listen to you, see you, find
you again.
Sure.
So at Chirag Patel Consulting, C-H-I
-R-A-G, P-A-T-E-L,
Consulting.
That's my Instagram handle, also YouTube username and
(59:21):
Facebook page.
And so if you go to any of
those, you can find videos.
I'm more active currently on Instagram, but it
changes.
So yeah, those are the places where you
will find more up-to-date information about
myself, videos that I'm releasing.
I've got a juicy video that's coming out
maybe tomorrow or later tonight if I finish
(59:42):
editing it.
So on Instagram probably.
So yeah, have a look at those areas.
And also, if you haven't, we've mentioned Skinner,
this dude.
If you haven't heard of Skinner or you
haven't seen WF Skinner Foundation website, I would
highly encourage everyone to go check it out.
There's so many free resources and there's some
(01:00:03):
amazing videos and interviews and so many free
things that can be useful in the learning
journey and people who are interested in behavior.
So please go check that out.
Amazing.
We will link to all of that in
the show.
And one more thing, just before I forget,
this conversation came about because Chirag, the awesome
(01:00:25):
Sophie Bell and I have been connecting recently
to discuss Chirag's inaugural visit to the land
of the long white cloud, Aotearoa, or as
most of the rest of the world knows
us, New Zealand.
So if you are an Australasian listener, Chirag
will be joining us in Wellington, New Zealand
in November 2026 for a three or four
(01:00:47):
day event.
We're still deep in the planning phase, but
you can stay up to date via a
dedicated Facebook group we've created for the event.
And I'll pop the link to that in
the show notes as well.
Well, Chirag, this has been a ton of
fun.
We very much appreciate you, everything you're doing
with your life, changing the world, one animal,
(01:01:07):
one human learner at a time.
And thank you for coming and hanging out
with us at Animal Training Academy.
And thank you for being such an inspiration.
The stuff you're doing with ATA and just
your behaviours are super inspiring genuinely for me
as well.
So thank you so much.
And thank you so much for listening as
(01:01:30):
well.
This is your host, Ryan Cartlidge, signing off
from this episode of the Animal Training Academy
podcast show.
We hope today's conversation inspired you and equipped
you with new tools for your trainer's toolbox.
Remember, every challenge in training is an opportunity
to learn and sharpen your animal training geekery.
(01:01:54):
Embrace the rough patches, learn from them and
keep improving.
And don't forget, the path to growing your
skills and expanding your knowledge continues beyond this
episode.
Visit www.atamember.com to join our supportive
membership where you will find a community of
(01:02:16):
trainers just like you.
Together, we're making a huge positive difference in
the lives of animal and human learners worldwide.
Until next time, keep honing your skills, stay
awesome, and remember, every interaction with an animal
or human learner is your opportunity to create
(01:02:38):
ripples.
We're here cheering you on every step of
the way.
See you at the next episode.
Welcome to the Animal Training Academy podcast show.
I'm your host, Ryan Carledge, and I'm passionate
about helping you master your animal training skills
using the most positive and least intrusive approaches.
Here at ATA, we understand that navigating the
vast challenges you encounter in training requires a
(00:27):
comprehensive base of knowledge and experience.
It's common to face obstacles and rough patches
on your journey that can leave you feeling
overwhelmed and stressed.
Therefore, since 2015, we have been on a
mission to empower animal training geeks worldwide.
We've aided thousands in developing their skills, expanding
(00:51):
their knowledge, boosting their confidence, and maximizing their
positive impact on all the animal and human
learners they work with.
We are excited to do the same for
you.
Simply visit www.atamember.com, join our vibrant
(01:12):
community and geek out with us.
And of course, in the meantime, enjoy this
free podcast episode, as we explore new ways
to help you supercharge your training skills, grow
your knowledge and build your confidence so that
you can craft a life that positively impacts
(01:32):
every learner you encounter.
We'll start today's episode where I'll be talking
to one Chirag Patel.
Chirag is an internationally renowned behavior and training
consultant who began his career in 2004, helping
(01:54):
dogs and their people.
Today he works with a range of species,
both domestic and exotic in homes, zoos, labs
and organizations across the globe.
His clients have included Guide Dogs UK, The
Police, Dog Trusts, BC, SBCA, Kong and many
more.
Based in the UK, Chirag has taught workshops
(02:14):
and seminars across Europe, North America, Australia, Mexico
and the Middle East.
He holds a BSc of Honours in Veterinary
Sciences and a PG Cert in Clinical Animal
Behaviour, along with multiple advanced credentials.
A passionate advocate for ethical science-based behaviour
(02:35):
change, Chirag empowers both animals and humans through
low-stress cooperative care techniques.
He's been featured on BBC's Nightmare Pets SOS
and Cats and Dogs at War, and his
YouTube channel has reached over a million views,
offering free education to professionals and pet guardians
alike.
(02:56):
So without further ado, it is my very
great pleasure to welcome Chirag Patel back to
the ATA podcast show today, who's patiently waiting
by on the other side of the planet.
Chirag, thank you so much for taking the
time to come and hang out with us
again at Animal Training Academy.
Hi, Ryan.
Thank you very much.
I am so happy to be back.
(03:17):
It's such a happy place and our previous
experiences have been, I think, amazing.
I love them and they brought joy.
So I'm really looking forward to today's experience.
I say again, because Chirag, you're on, God,
I don't know, episode like 20 or 30
or something, up to 260, 270 now.
And did you know that your episode is
(03:38):
the most downloaded episode?
I think, I think it might be up
to about 20,000 or something downloads, something
ridiculous.
I can double check after.
But, um, I think it's heavily influenced by
its title, which has your name in it.
For one, you're very widely recognized and appreciated.
(04:00):
And two, it has the bucket game in
the title, which I think has potentially influenced,
I don't have any data on this.
So it's just a hypothesis.
It's a success.
Is that when you look at your YouTube
downloads, and maybe you haven't done this, it's
like the bucket game, one of the most
(04:21):
viewed?
Yeah.
So I'd like to think it's me.
No, I'm joking.
It's my environment.
It's definitely I think the bucket game on
YouTube, I think the muzzle video, the drop
and the bucket game, counting game are the
like the top ranking videos.
And because I haven't actually put too much
stuff out there about the bucket game, more
(04:44):
than the little snippets.
I think the search engine on Google search
for bucket game is searched widely.
But I think if I added more videos,
then probably it would be one of the
higher ranking videos.
And I'm assuming, so tell me if I'm
wrong, that when you created the bucket game,
you weren't like, I'm going to create something
(05:05):
that's really sticky, and it's gonna get a
high search result.
It was just random.
I mean, there was a bucket and it
was a game.
So you call it the bucket game.
It just kind of stuck.
Well, yeah, it's actually a funny story with.
So I think there's a number of different
(05:26):
environmental influences that were coming together and evoking
like my behaviors of training in certain ways.
And one of those I just heard Susan
Friedman speak, and she'd kind of turned my
world upside down in terms, oh, my God,
I thought I, I knew this stuff.
And Turtle Crown Empowerment.
And I left, I remember leaving going, oh,
(05:47):
how can I design protocols, or change protocols
that I teach already to include some of
this empowerment.
And one of the things I was doing
a nail clip with Kane, one of my
previous German Shepherds.
And I remember going, well, this food, and
I put the food in front, because he's
lying down, the foods in front means he's
not watching me.
When I turn around to do his back
(06:09):
feet, and move around his body, he's kind
of focused towards the food.
And then I was like, oh, I can
make this contingent.
So if he looks at the food, I
go to touch if he turns away, I
stop touching.
And so those thoughts came to me.
And I started to kind of use that
as a, a protocol.
(06:30):
And I was teaching for a workshop for
Sarah Fisher at Tilly Farm.
And Sarah Fisher is a beautiful, amazing human.
She goes, Oh, yeah, the other part of
the story was, I taught a workshop in
LA, and I'd gone to Target.
And in Target, they have the area where
it's like a supermarket, superstore, they have like
the shelf with the deals.
And I had walked in there with these
(06:51):
little buckets.
And I was like, oh, I need something
for the puppy workshop for our students to
practice.
And because I used to use like food
bowls, or little pots.
And so I got these little buckets.
And then whenever I was playing the game,
or teaching this, I was using these buckets.
And so hence, it started to become known,
like Sarah Fisher's like, what's that thing that
(07:11):
we did the other day in the workshop,
the bucket game.
And that's how the name came about was
the bucket game.
So I credit Sarah Fisher for the name,
and my visit to LA for the buckets
and Target, and Susan Friedman for helping inspire
my thinking of what changed my thinking behavior
(07:32):
and my outside behavior and how I was
working with my dog.
So yeah, all of those random variables coming
together.
I think I remember learning about empowerment from
Susan.
And I think it was from, was it
in LLA you learned that?
Or was it like in a conference talk?
No, actually, it was a conference talk.
(07:53):
And it was, I think, IAABC was the
first time I heard Susan.
And in the States, maybe in Boston, or
somewhere like that.
And again, I have to thank a trainer
in the UK called Nina Bondarenko, who's a
legend all by herself.
I don't know if she's been on the
podcast with you.
Definitely.
I highly recommend it.
Nina is amazing.
(08:14):
And has a fascinating history, fascinating history.
And she's a pioneer as well, in terms
of I think, like just before a lot
of like the positive shifts and stuff was
happening.
She was breeding rottweilers and training them, focusing
on more of a positive reinforcement approach.
But I thank her and I'm grateful for
her for, I remember writing to her 20,
(08:34):
like 21 years ago and saying, Oh, can
I come in?
I read some of your articles in K.
Lawrence's.
And again, so credit to K.
Lawrence.
There's so much gratitude here, because K.
Lawrence's used to have a magazine, a clicker
magazine.
And I remember reading some of the articles
in there.
And Nina Bondarenko had written some of those.
And I used to be like, thinking about
(08:55):
the dominant side of things.
And dogs were also part of these German
Shepherds, that's like the sexy side was the
Schutz and this stuff.
And so I was like, I'm so fascinated.
And I remember reading Nina Bondarenko's articles about
using clicker for that.
And so I met Nina, and then Nina
recommended that I join and go to a
conference that she's going to IABC in the
States, met Susan or heard Susan.
(09:17):
And so yeah, all these different environmental influences.
I am grateful for that shape to history
that allowed me to engage in the behaviors
I do.
I remember learning about the babies who move
their head in a certain way to trigger
(09:37):
the movement of a mobile above their head.
And how those individual babies in the study
that Susan shared, who had increased head movement,
had increased coo sounds and gas sounds and
sounds that one might attribute to happy internal
(09:59):
state within that baby.
That that was that what Susan talked about
this desk like my point was exactly that.
100% that I was telling that example.
And I love that.
Like I remember I used to share it
so much when I heard I was telling
everyone about it.
And it was just yeah, I that was
what that was actually one of the big
(10:20):
points of like, yeah, that really helped as
well.
And then you you learned about empowerment through
Susan, you brought in little buckets from the
sales table at a big store, I think
was a target, one of the big stores.
And then you started to look for ideas
(10:40):
about how you could implement that.
It made me curious when you were saying
that.
How do you how do you stay innovative?
And how do you?
And there's a reason I'm asking this question.
Because I think as careers go on, and
you learn protocols or procedures that work for
(11:01):
you, but potentially, if you pause and reflect
that you might see that you're skipping some
of the lower to reference Susan's work, some
of the lower levels of the humane hierarchy,
and reaching for procedures that are a little
(11:21):
bit more invasive.
And I think it takes something, which is
what I'm asking you about something to be
consistently aware of individualism, and being innovative and
hearing what others are doing, and then practically
applying that.
(11:42):
Because your learning history would arguably push against
that somewhat.
How do you how do you stay innovative?
Oh, that's such a great question.
And one answer I think I could, well,
one thing I think I've, I think I've
observed, I have observed is going through various
exercises, or how would I teach certain things
(12:04):
from a behavioural analytic perspective, and a contingency
analysis has hugely, really helped in terms of
when I started sitting down and going, so
when I started to learn about ABA, and
learn about, it's not just about learning theory,
it's not just operant conditioning, it's a bigger
field, and it's, there's so many more nuances.
And that aspect of function is important, analysing,
(12:27):
like MOs, SDs, behavioural consequences, and I started
to sit down and I would remember sitting
there for hours on different journeys.
And I'd like, okay, how do I teach
loose dishwalking?
How do I teach?
What do I do when a dog barks?
What do I do when X is happening
or Y is happening?
And do it for the human too, the
human learner.
And I would end up writing these ABCs
going, oh my god, I'm confused now and
then going back.
(12:48):
And as I started doing this going, oh,
what I was calling teaching a leave with
positive reinforcement, I'm actually using a lot of
extinction or setting up for extinction or using
negative punishment.
And oh, if I just did it this
way, and I put the B here, and
this was the A, suddenly, there's a positive
reinforcement contingency, or there's something different.
And so some of my kind of protocols
or things that I use have really just
(13:10):
come from, this is where I go back
to the fundamentals for me, the principles, the
functional assessments, the contingencies.
And as I asked the question, what is
the MO, the SD, behavioural consequence, what does
I want to set up for, what contingencies
do I want to arrange for?
And what behaviours do I want to promote?
Then it comes from, I think, also all
(13:31):
the learning history of watching other people, reading
from other people, hearing them talk.
These things are there, they've influenced you, they've
changed you in some way, when you've contacted
this material, the people, the social interactions, the
knowledge, and ideas appear, they come, I can't
take responsibility for the ideas, because they're not
(13:52):
really, like, if I didn't have the learning
history and the exposure to these different environmental
events, then maybe I would be doing something
very different.
So I think, again, it goes back to,
I think, something Ian Dunbar said to me
early on was, see as many different trainers
as possible, and go work with as many
different people who are different to you, and
(14:13):
don't just do what you believe in.
And that will be one of the best
things you can do.
And I think, I love that, because you
learn different ways to speak to people, different
ways to do different exercises, analyse why does
this person do this, and that person does
that, and then bring it back to science,
and work your way up.
And suddenly, I think that allows for so
much creativity, and innovation.
(14:34):
So I actually think what some people might
consider boring, or, ah, it's the basics, the
ABCs, I can't get anything new from that.
For me, that is the thing that allows
me to be innovative or creative.
So I don't know if that makes sense.
But that's, I think that's a huge one
for me.
Well, let's see if I'm picking up what
you're putting down.
(14:55):
Firstly, I like it.
I don't know where I got that from.
I remember hearing it somewhere.
Firstly, you reminded me of something I think
Michael Shikasho shared on a podcast episode with
us, where he said, like how much thought
he put into his sessions he's just had
on his travelling routines, and always had some,
(15:18):
I think, and I'll have to go back
and listen, because I've kind of moved out
of what Michael Shikasho said, and now saying
what I think Michael Shikasho would do.
But that is to have some questions on
board that are really empowering and growth orientated,
like, what did I do?
How can I do it better?
It sounds like you had this, you have
(15:40):
the same, that when you've got some space,
without any needs being placed upon you from
your environment, you can just attend to your
own thoughts, you're exploring what you've seen, and
trying to filter that through what you know,
from the behavioural analytical lens.
(16:01):
And that, that helps you be innovative.
Yeah, I would agree with that.
Being critical, not in a bad way, but
just, I think, questioning, what did I do?
Why did I do it?
What can I learn from this?
Is there something, what did I do that
I'm going to do again?
And why am I going to do it
again?
Am I doing it just because it's intuition
or in air quotes?
(16:23):
Or is there actually a reason that I
can, I'm aware of, and I can observe,
and I can attack, or I can verbalise.
And there are so many things that I
do that maybe I can't verbalise.
And why is that?
Am I not aware of exactly what I'm
doing?
Or how I'm doing it?
Or can being more aware of it, allow
(16:44):
me to be better?
And also, if I believe in a scientific
approach, and the assumptions and behaviours of a
scientist and the philosophies, one of those is
to kind of ask the question, why?
And where's the data?
And to always be critical, to allow us
to be, keep what we're doing, keep the
integrity in what we're doing.
(17:05):
So for me, that's super important is to
ask always, what can I learn from this?
What can I analyse?
And even kind of this a bit of
a sidetrack, but I think the world of
social media is super interesting.
And part of my journey has been social
media as well.
But say, for example, if someone puts a
comment that I might equate as rude, or
(17:26):
I'm going to decide it's something well, for
whatever reason, it could be aversive or rude,
or a number of different labels we could
put there, I might choose, actually, I'm going
to delete this comment, or I might reply
to it, whatever I decide to do, that's
a bit irrelevant.
But one of the things I will, I've
taken often do is I will take the
comment, I will write it down.
And then I'll read what I'll read, I'll
(17:47):
put it into bullet points, and basically go
objectively, what points are there in this comment
that I could evaluate?
So if the person said, oh, you're just
horrible, how can you work with marine mammals?
And why can't you work with domestic animals?
And why do you have to use food
like food to motivate the animals, then out
of those things, I will ask the questions
(18:08):
like, okay, what can I take here that
might just be more subjective comments that I
can't really test, I can't do much with,
and now I'm just going to kind of
put them aside and erase them.
Then I've got a bullet point of questions
like, is there something else I can use
other than food?
Am I always using just food?
Am I using animals meals for training alone?
(18:31):
And I just ask myself those questions and
see what answers I have.
So engaging that interaction.
And that for me, I really love that,
because I feel like it's an opportunity and
around environment arrangement to grow and be critical,
but in a good way.
And then I might say, actually, I disagree
with some of these statements.
But I don't need to reply back to
a person.
But for thank you for giving me the
(18:52):
opportunity to actually question what I do, and
give me an opportunity to reflect and self
reflect.
And so that I think, again, that reflection,
the analysis, asking those questions can be so
helpful.
And we can also start changing certain cues
in the environment from negative, more negative to
more positive.
(19:13):
Okay, so one thing I was curious about,
as you were saying that, how often would
you say you do that process?
How often would I say the process of
the social media comments, just analyzing everything, social
media comments, every time I think every time
I do social media comment, I would probably
(19:33):
like I don't go every day look for
through the comments.
But I have now tried to, so I
know if I read, if I read comments,
then I might sit there analyze it for
four hours or think about it and not
in a necessarily even a bad way.
But I want to work with my new
cat or take Niska for a walk or
go learn read a book.
(19:54):
And so I don't want to take away
for those.
So now I've arranged that, okay, there's certain
times where I'll go through my comments.
And I will take comments that are good
feedback and use those, they function as reinforcers
for wanting to make more content.
And but also, they also provide information to
me about what is it that people what
(20:16):
is it that people are picking up on
in those what comments are they making?
And why?
And is that a way to then capture
audience or speak to an audience?
And also then the critical, more critical comments?
I've seen that they're there?
Is this the right time to ask myself
under this context or under the conditions of
seeing critical comments, that should become a cue
(20:37):
for do I want to engage in them
now?
And I will decide, okay, no, not right
now, because there's other things I need to
do today.
But I'll put them on a list.
And later, I can sit down and go
through them.
And I have a system now how to
go through them.
So those systems have helped make it more
productive.
But I would say regularly, and I'd say
basically, every day in my life, most of
(20:58):
the time, I'm questioning why do I do
it?
Why did I do that?
After I did it?
Or usually not maybe sometimes not before, but
definitely afterwards.
It's like, wait, how did that go?
Why did that go like that?
So yeah.
And is that something that you've done since
a kid or something that a behavioral analytical
filter and knowledge acquisition has fostered in you?
(21:21):
Hmm, I don't know the answer to that.
I can't remember.
Like, I don't think I can accurately answer
that.
Because, you know, like my generic on like
the popular type wording would be I can't
remember.
So I probably just make something up as
we start talking of the current cues will
probably make me say something that might actually
(21:41):
be true.
So I don't know.
But I probably guess that definitely seeing a
scientific approach and a philosophy is important for
me to achieve where I want to go.
And it's a model that allows me to
bring change to myself to the learners I
work with.
And the field at large has definitely either
(22:02):
boosted that or been a huge part of
that.
But maybe there was parts of it that
I was doing early on as well.
But I can't Yeah, I don't know.
That's the short answer.
I don't know.
Yeah, I find it interesting, because I've never
had anyone share that process before.
So I don't know if anyone else does
(22:23):
that.
I don't think but I do know that.
Let me share an example.
When we had Ava Bertelsen out here, your
good friend Ava Bertelsen out here last year,
and we we put a questionnaire out to
our workshop attendees and said, Who do you
(22:44):
want to have out here?
Yours truly was represented the most in that
feedback.
And I attribute that to and let me
know how this lands.
I attribute that to your teaching ability, and
your ability to convey ideas.
(23:05):
And now I'm curious if that comes from
and I'm sure the answer is yes.
But tell me it's not comes from, in
part, the process you just described, and not
necessarily just the process you just described, but
the mindset behind the process you just described,
of being curious, and always looking to grow
(23:27):
and learn and improve.
How did those words land?
Improve?
I don't normally use that word.
Yeah, I, again, I probably say, it's hard
to have the data to say that's it.
But I would guess that might be part
of it.
(23:48):
Definitely.
It does.
Yeah, like, that could be part of it.
And I think, I suppose the difference is,
I suppose, if I look at what I'm,
because I never thought like, when someone asked
me to teach a workshop, it was Grisha
Stewart, actually, I think I was one of
the first people like to teach a workshop
abroad.
And I think I was teaching some UK
workshop because of the videos I did on
(24:10):
social media.
But I remember just being like, I don't
actually know why, like this one video.
There's so many other people could probably teach
this stuff better than me.
And then over the years, I kind of,
things have been selected to what is it
that I can offer, not necessarily what can
I offer, but what is it people are
getting to getting something, I'm getting invited back,
(24:31):
and trying to observe what are those things
that people are finding useful that could be
different from another seminar workshop.
And I would agree, I think one of
those differences is that people often comment on
is how things are very individual.
There's like, it's always like, we're breaking everything
(24:52):
down, but also keeping it practical.
And it's very individual.
And that definitely comes from, I think, as
I started to learn more about behaviour analysis,
and Susan's study of one, and the behaviour
analytic approach is the individual, that really opened
up a whole world for me of like,
wait, we're training puppy classes and saying socialization,
(25:15):
we kind of think we bought a puppy
in the socialization machine one end, if we
do socialization, right, it should come out as
a perfect puppy on the other end.
But each puppy is individual in terms of
genetics, biology and learning histories.
And so that's pretty much not really possible.
And how is it that sometimes we end
up just going, oh, we need to do
counter conditioning for that.
Or we need to, we have a dog
(25:35):
who's doing this, we need to jump to
this.
But what happens to the individuality?
And how do we approach that?
And I think that really has been a
huge thing for me.
And I think that's something that I'm really,
I'm very focused on is constantly questioning, what
are the variables at play?
What are the conditions?
What are we doing?
What's the data?
And part of that is, it may seem
(25:56):
a little bit different to the question you
asked, but I think it kind of circles
back in that, from behaviour analytic approach, you're
always questioning, you're always collecting data, analysing, and
observing and changing things.
And that reflects back to, okay, how do
I observe my own behaviour, or the environments
that I am in, and how they influence
(26:16):
my behaviour?
And what was different?
So yeah, I think that definitely, maybe is
definitely maybe, that makes me laugh.
That definitely maybe is an influencing variable.
But why I'm asking these questions, stems from
(26:38):
a belief, or mantra that I hold that,
if you see in someone else, some traits
that you value, and would find valuable to
grow within yourself in that space, then learning
(27:01):
about why that person behaves the way they
do, what their processes are.
I mean, imagine if everyone tomorrow just started
taking a verse of comments and doing a
process, like how it would change the world.
And so I'm just trying, I'm trying to,
I'm asking these questions to try to understand
how you operate as an operator, to see
(27:24):
what myself and the listeners can take away
to model some of the things that I
think have made you really successful.
Give me a sec, because I'm just, I
had a thought that, oh yes, about the
individual thing, right?
Like, so like, I'm glad you brought that
(27:45):
up, because I think it really stands out
to me as well.
And not only you, but as an individual,
the learning opportunities that I find most valuable
is when it is really broken down to
the individual and unpacking labels and filtering things
through that behavioral analytical lens.
But I know that's not true for everyone,
(28:07):
and some learners don't find as much value
in that.
And so I feel like this little bit
of swirling thoughts in my head, disorientation and
confusion, when I say, for me, that's needed
and required, but for others it's not.
And why is that?
(28:27):
That is a fascinating question.
And I think also, it's not, I think
functionally, there's some similarities between your statement about
if you see a trait or behaviors or
repertoires in this, from an individual trying to
study, like, how did that come about?
(28:48):
So that it could be something that could
be useful to me, or to you or
someone else.
I really like that.
And that's something that I think I've engaged
into those behaviors.
But then when I was thinking about ways
you're saying that, and I was thinking about
it, I was also thinking, okay, so there
are times where I've studied someone's behavior and
(29:10):
their environment, and going, what are the conditions
under which they were to engage in those
behaviors?
And can I replicate those and practice?
But then I also started to go, oh,
yeah, it's not as simple as going, I've
identified that some of these are the conditions,
because also, like, if you take a certain
stimulus, it could look the same.
And that's going to impact my friend's behavior,
(29:34):
or let's say your behavior.
You're my friend, count me as a friend.
And my behavior may be very differently.
And it could evoke different responses, different feelings,
different, it could be a different antecedent.
But it's the same stimulus, but the function
of it is slightly different.
And so part of it is identifying what
(29:54):
is that, what are the conditions, but also
what are, like, the groups of contingencies and
the previous history?
And what are the MOs in place?
And what's allowed for this stimulus to function
in the way it does for this individual?
And sometimes we may not really be able
to identify that and know that.
And so, yeah, I think it's almost like,
why for one person, will it land like
(30:17):
this?
And for another person will land like that?
I kind of sometimes, I don't go so
deep in that, because I don't really, I'm
not not going to know the answer.
And I don't know, part of me is
easy, or comfortable staying with the idea of
a radical behaviorist approach can start to offer
answers for those questions.
But it's not going to tell me exactly,
like, for this person, it was this without
(30:38):
the data.
And I don't have a way of collecting
that data.
So kind of just sticking to the more
the principle of if I would did want
to collect the data, this is what I'd
have to kind of look at.
But it's not really, really practical to collect
the data.
So I'm going to accept that I don't
like I won't be able to identify it.
But I can understand why it would land
differently for different people.
(30:58):
Although it could be similar stimulus, topography wise.
I don't know if actually, like, is that
still relevant to what we're discussing.
But that's what that's where.
Yeah, that's what that's where my thought process
went when you were saying that.
It made me think and potentially just because
it was on the tail end of your
(31:19):
description there about acceptance.
And I think that in our industry, it
can be challenging to accept other perspectives or
approaches.
You shared something on Instagram once and I
think it's top five, like, impactful things that
I've seen on social media shared by friends.
(31:40):
And that was like, can you read or
watch something without having any opinion as you're
reading or watching it?
Like, can you can you absorb that information
without filtering it through your your own experiences?
Part of that being judgmental reflections on differences
between your values and how you do things
(32:03):
versus what you're seeing and what you're absorbing.
And then it made me think of an
example the other day where I was very
tired.
It was a Sunday.
Some day, some day straight, I just hit
a wall and I'm like, my tank is
empty.
Me too.
There's nothing in the tank.
(32:23):
Right.
And this past Sunday was one of those
days.
I was like, I got I got nothing.
I just need to, like, do nothing today
in my pajamas, which is impossible when you
got kids.
But it was bedtime.
Or pets.
Or just an hour of life.
And I had just gone to bed and
I was so tired.
And I put my one year old to
(32:44):
bed, Kaya, and gone into a deep sleep,
like lying next to her, putting her to
sleep.
Then I had to get up, do things,
go back to bed, just falling asleep.
Someone walks in, my five year old, crying.
I don't know if she had a bad
dream or something.
And I was I was I was on
empty.
And I was and I was like, I'm
here.
Someone, what do you need?
Water.
OK, go get your water.
(33:04):
She runs into her room.
She gets a toilet roll, brings it to
me.
I'm like, wait, what's a toilet roll?
And I was like, I need water.
I was like, go get your water.
And she was very upset.
I was like, just get into bed, Summer,
because she comes into my room and there's
a spare bed.
She gets into spare bed, sleeps in the
bedroom with me in another bed.
And in the morning, I was like, she
was really upset.
Like she needed some company.
(33:25):
But I was on empty that day.
And I'm human.
And when she woke up, I was like,
sorry, I didn't cuddle you.
And gave her a big hug and said,
apologize for that.
Daddy gets frustrated and tired, too.
But I'm sorry.
But then one thing I thought about in
that moment was just radical acceptance.
Like, that's what it was.
I was there.
(33:45):
I wasn't perfect, but I was there.
And that's what happened.
Is that I'm sharing this because I'm curious.
Like this idea of radical acceptance was shared
with me.
And I was like, oh, that's really interesting.
And then I watch you and I hear
you talk, and I'm just curious if that's
of acceptance.
And I feel like I've observed that in
(34:06):
you.
I feel like you're somebody that comes to
mind when I think about this term radical
acceptance.
How does that land with you?
So a few different things.
First one, I've not heard the term radical
acceptance before.
So radical, yes, from a radical behaviorist perspective,
Skinner's philosophy of behavior and radical or meaning
(34:27):
all encompassing, thoroughgoing.
So from that perspective, that's where kind of
my learning issue radical is.
Could I ask this in terms of like,
obviously, from your examples and descriptions of what
you said, I could start to maybe go,
oh, that fits under the is that what
fits under the category of the label radical
(34:47):
in this context?
But is there, like, if I were to
ask you, what is radical acceptance, just because
I'm interested?
Don't know.
But two things, I'm going to answer it
based on my understanding that I have.
But I just want to express gratitude for
what you just did there.
I think it's so valuable to have someone
(35:08):
to question and ask and check clarity on
on things like that, because that's so important
to what we do.
And I missed an opportunity there to say
when I say radical behaviorism, what I mean
is, so think not radical behaviorism, radical acceptance
is my learning history coming up.
(35:30):
So I appreciate the opportunity to to to
have that question.
Thank you.
Great.
I love I love what you just modeled
for our listeners.
I think that was awesome.
So just just acceptance.
So rather than I wish that was different,
it would be like that's that that was
what it was.
And then you can add some other frames
(35:50):
there, like I was there.
I care.
This is what I'm thinking.
These things can't change that.
That's what it was.
I accept it.
Is that that's I need to articulate a
better answer than that over time because I'm
just resonating with me.
But for now, that's what I've got.
Yeah.
And that fits to what I was going
to put.
I would put under a label based on
what I heard you talk about previously.
(36:10):
And I'm also talking like chatting with our
friend.
I call him chat GPT.
You call him chatter.
As a chat, GPT was radical acceptance and
chat GPT is like radical acceptance, a psychological
concept that means fully and completely.
So thorough going, accepting reality as it is
without resistance, judgment or avoidance, even when the
(36:33):
reality is painful, unpleasant.
And then it comes from dialectic behavioral therapy
and it gives some names and then it
says a definition.
Radical acceptance is letting go of fighting reality
and instead of and instead choosing to accept
it deeply, wholly and completely.
And then it goes on to give more
things.
But, yeah, I would say that is something
(36:57):
I practice.
And again, we could question like, where did
that come from?
What did I read?
What did the environments have shaped that?
But yes, I would say I'm like when
I come across a situation, one of the
big things I actually even hear myself thinking
or observe myself thinking or saying or saying
(37:18):
out loud is.
It is what it is or this is
this is what it is right now.
And anything else would be crazy to kind
of go, we should stick like, yeah, I
could wish and it's OK to wish it's
different.
I accept that.
But let's just go practically.
What do I have in front of me?
Where do I want to go and what
(37:41):
are the steps here from this place to
this place?
And it's OK to be in this place.
And like you said, it was OK to.
Oh, I shouted at my dog the other
day.
I said, I'll stop it or whatever.
And OK, that happened.
It's OK.
And the other part of that, I suppose
for me as well, being as I start
to as a behaviorist, a behaviorist and focusing
(38:03):
on a scientific perspective, observation is so important.
Like the first level of experimentation is observation
and observation isn't judgment.
It's not analysis.
It's so to start with is I've really
been happy in practicing.
If I watch a video or I read
something, let me just start by observing what's
(38:25):
there based on the history I have and
the ability I have to observe based on
my learning.
And I can practice those skills.
But so I think, yeah, often I'll start
with, OK, let's just start to observe.
OK, then what's the what correlations or what
hypotheses can I draw from the data I
currently have?
What's my independent independent variables?
(38:45):
And I apply that to my life.
So for me, essentially, the frame of radical
behavior, the assumptions of radical behaviorism and Skinner's
behaviorism and a scientific approach is not my
job or why it's my life.
I can't see life.
For me, it's like Susan's example of whether
(39:07):
you believe in gravity or not exist, taking
that line of what's the right words of
the thing, taking that kind of stream of
thinking to behaviorism and scientific approach.
I mean, that's the way I see the
world.
That's the way it is, not just from
the morning I wake up to the time
I go to bed, when I'm eating, drinking,
everything I do for me is that frame.
(39:28):
And I know I've been like I've dated
someone previously and I was talking to them
and I was like, they're like, but isn't
the joy in sometimes just accepting like the
I'm not this, not quoting word for word,
but isn't the joy in not analyzing the
joy in just accepting it?
For me and my learning history, that brings
(39:51):
me no joy.
For me, the joy comes from asking questions
and analyzing, and that brings a lot of
joy for me.
And also, rather than for me, and again,
it's not right or wrong, my learning history
is different, everyone's individual.
For me, saying I don't know and actually
sitting with the answer I don't know.
And if I don't have a system of,
(40:11):
or actually not even a system, I do
have a system.
The system is the formulating hypotheses using a
scientific approach and radical behaviorist approach, is if
I don't know how to apply that to
answer the question, or I don't have the
ability to analyze the thing that's happening with
this frame right now, this model, this system,
(40:31):
I'm happy to sit there with I don't
know, and I will find out another way
rather than sitting there and engaging in more
thinking behavior.
But it could have been this, it could
have been that, why didn't this person call
me back?
And actually, I don't know why the person
didn't call me back.
And I don't have the ability to collect
that data, or I do if I phone
them and ask them, or even if I
ask someone and they say something, it doesn't
mean that's what it was.
(40:52):
That's just verbal behavior, not just, that's verbal
behavior.
I'm not going to put a camera and
watch what they were doing, what their conditions
were.
And so there are so many things that
I don't have the data.
And for me, I suppose the reason I'm
saying that is reading the definition and hearing
from yourself about radical acceptance.
I would say, yeah, I do practice that
(41:12):
a lot.
And I maybe have also given some explanations
of why.
I remember last time we were connected on
this podcast, we talked about Ika Toll and
the power of now.
And I'm curious if, I mean, I know
my wife, Sapphire, bless her, love her, is
(41:33):
questioning sometimes of my analytical mind on all
behavior and the differences in the way she
views the world and how that can create
friction sometimes.
And I'm also remembering back to doing a
panel discussion with Susan and four or five
(41:57):
other LLA instructors.
We did LLA as a community in our
academy.
And that was where I really, I think
it was Megan, I can't remember Megan's name
now, Sanders, who said something like, ABA is
more than just an animal training tool.
(42:17):
It's a way you filter the world.
And that was only a couple of years
ago.
And I was like, oh yeah, I never
really thought about that.
It's my whole way of thinking now for
me as an individual.
I think it's very different than being in
your brain, but for me, it's how I
filter the world.
So I have a question for you.
(42:37):
And I learned from previous experiences and asked
Chaz at the definition of his label before
I asked the question for you so I
can relate to you.
Would you say, and I know we're meant
to talk about Nala the cat today, but
here we are, would you say that you're
spiritual?
Now spiritual, as ChatGPT defines it, relates to
(42:59):
anything related to the human spirit or soul,
especially as distinct from physical material things.
It often involves a sense of connection to
something greater than oneself, which can include religious
faith, personal growth, inner peace, or search for
meaning and purpose.
I love, this is another reason I love
coming back to these, to you and the
(43:22):
podcast is these questions are amazing.
So yes and no.
So the definition you gave, if I'm now
going, okay, that's the definition I have in
front of me.
There's a lot of probably not is where
I'm kind of moving the dial if it's
(43:42):
like, I can slide it backwards and forwards
to not spiritual to spiritual and kind of
sliding it to the not so spiritual side
based on that definition.
But at the same time, when you mentioned
Eckhart Tolle, and I do love Eckhart Tolle,
I say love, like I've listened to his
book now many times and I will listen
(44:03):
to it and I find that it's an
antecedent arrangement to promote and evoke behaviors that
I find super useful engaging in a contact
and reinforces and helped me hugely in many
situations.
But I suppose every time I hear people
or see things or read things, I'm translating
back to a behavior analytic framework, asking the
question, how does this like easier than these
(44:24):
words?
And I think actually a lot of, if
you change the wording and you change the
terminology, and like for me that it's easy
to translate sometimes and actually it works really
well.
There's a lot of kind of behavior analytic
assumptions and it just transfers over really, really
well for me.
(44:46):
And he talks a lot about being spiritual
and spirituality.
But then so from the definition you were
giving when I was hearing it, I was
like, wait, I don't actually what is the
soul?
And what is the spirit?
And for me that none of that is
everything for me is physical.
I don't believe there is a non-physical
entity and meaning even if we can't like
(45:10):
study it right now, we haven't found the
technology or the tools to be able to
study in that way.
But I don't believe anything is non-physical.
I do believe everything is physical and on
this planet, that's one of my assumptions.
And yeah, so that's one of my views
of the world.
I'm not saying I'm right, but that's just
(45:30):
how I approach the world.
So yeah.
It's given a couple of different contexts where
you could like filter that definition through.
So one of them is pertaining to one's
inner life values and emotional or physiological wellbeing.
Do you feel like understanding behavior analysis has
(45:55):
given you improved psychological wellbeing?
I can give a definition for that if
you want.
I love it.
And also it's like people on the podcast
can't see the camera-to-camera interaction as
well.
And I just love the patients because sometimes
the smiles happen between both of us as
(46:15):
in like when either I'm saying something and
there's a smile on the other side.
That brings me a lot of joy as
well.
And I would say, yes, I would say
ABA has.
And again, ABA has helped me look at,
so I struggled with the discussion of emotion
from a child.
I can remember this, like that when people
(46:39):
talked about emotions, even as a young child,
I really struggled to, like if someone said
emotional, but what is like, and not necessarily
what is that, like I would be asking
it now in the same way.
But I don't know, there's something that I
struggled with.
And when people talked about these emotions and
things, it just, yeah, like for a lot
of people would be like, yeah, yeah, emotions.
And for me, I was like, and even
(47:00):
to a post-grad level, I remember being
at Lincoln, University of Lincoln.
So I did the MSc program there and
I didn't really complete most of the assignments.
And so I got a post-grad certificate,
but I was there for the whole year
and attended all the classes.
But there's a huge emphasis on discussion of
emotion and Panksett's model and things like that.
And I remember even then, and this was
like maybe 15 years ago, 18, it's like
(47:22):
15 to, I don't know, 16, 17 years
ago.
But so not that long ago.
But I even remember sitting there in the
class going, it's just like, is I, I
don't get it.
Like I was struggling, like this whole emotional
aspect of it, or like the way emotion
was being, and I did A-level, studied
psychology at A-level, like at college in
the UK.
(47:43):
And even then, I mean, they're talking about
it, just so many things that didn't kind
of fit together.
And then when I learned about behavior analysis
and how behavior analysis looks at, can study,
how do, would we go to study emotions
from a behavior analytic framework?
For me, it's something just everything fit, like
it just suddenly life made sense.
(48:03):
And so I would say a hundred percent,
because like, yeah, I have experiences, private experiences,
or internal experiences that I might label as
frustration or anxiety or happy, sad, whatever feelings,
emotions.
But using the framework from a behavior analytic
perspective, and it's not just one framework from
(48:26):
a behavior perspective, but using one of those
frameworks to look at emotions and study like,
okay, there's this observational private event.
There's my verbal behavior of me tacting or
saying, this is what I'm observing inside.
And now that doesn't necessarily, I could say,
oh, I feel sad, but it doesn't actually,
I might not be describing what I'm feeling
(48:47):
inside.
I might be saying that because then I,
someone asked a certain question or someone walks
away from me or someone gives me a
hug or something.
So it could be maintained by the reinforcers,
me saying that, but also, so being able
to analyze my internal environmental experiences from that
framework has been hugely helpful to me.
(49:07):
And I think it allows me to navigate
the world in a way that I'm able
to feel less anxious in context of situations
or less frustrated, or I still feel lots
of emotions and lots of things in lots
of different contexts.
But I feel like, not I feel like,
I have observed that using a behavior analytic
(49:32):
and especially a radical behavioristic framework to look
at this as being huge for me.
So I would say the short answer is
yes, behavior analysis definitely helped me with looking
at the inside.
What is it about behavior analysis that helps
you, do you think?
Two prompts for you.
Is it the connections that helps one form
(49:53):
between behavior and the environment?
And the second prompt, is it language and
vocabulary?
Yeah.
So, and I think there's a third thing
to add to that.
So Skinner, I keep mentioning Skinner.
So Skinner, I think is celebrated not just
for his work in behavior as a behaviorist
(50:16):
or whatever label we want to use in
that category.
But as a scientist and his work in
terms of studying, making this field of studying
behavior science, bringing science, because like there were
a lot of people studying behavior and psychology,
looking at behavior, but not necessarily with the
rigor of science that Skinner brought to the
(50:37):
table.
And for me, like in science and human
behavior in that book, it's a lot about
bringing the science to studying behavior and how
to look at it from that perspective.
So it's not, I think that's one huge
part is being a scientist and a scientist
practitioner, bringing the behaviorist of a scientist to
(50:59):
the table, using them, engaging in them, having
cues in the environment that allow me to
behave in those ways.
So I think those philosophies and assumptions of
a scientist, they're the things that are, I
think, hugely impactful.
And then the science of behavior change used
is the fundamental principles of like studying behavior
(51:19):
from a scientific lens, a perspective.
And so I think then the idea behind
the study of behavior as looking at behavior,
environmental relations, looking at behavior in the environment
and how they're related and what can I
learn from that and what can I analyze
and bring?
And also the idea of kind of bringing,
(51:41):
how can I bring the inside out to
study it?
How can I, so rather than saying, oh,
I'm frustrated and then trying to study frustration
as this non-physical thing that we can't
see, and we have to go to the
mind and inside the, and go into like
the, maybe a psychoanalysis, some other kind of
perspective is wait, what can I actually bring
(52:03):
from the inside to the out?
I can study the, what I'm describing as
this frustration issue that I have, we're experiencing.
And by doing that, I've been able to
contact reinforcers that I don't, I don't think
I observed that I was able to contact
with the prior learning history of trying to
(52:24):
solve my frustration by trying to understand the
frustration.
And so I think, yeah, just for me,
it's where the answers come more easily.
And like, again, part of the answers might
be, I don't know, but I really, that
also allows me to feel peaceful as opposed
to making up some story.
(52:45):
And then that becomes an antecedent arrangement for
the story to escalate in different ways.
And then we're living in like, what's going
to kind of call this psychic realm or
world.
And it's far from reality.
And I think that happens a lot.
And also my observations of, and it's not
judgment, it's just an observation of, I like
even say my mom sometimes to be like,
(53:06):
oh, this happened and this happened.
And it's like, wait, if we take, go
back to this story and go, where's the
data?
There's so many assumptions that can't be observed.
And the things have been kind of made
up, not in a bad way, but there's
a learning history with that story.
And for me, it gives me a headache
or kind of causes me like more anxiety
going, oh my God, like this, because I
can't even listen to this because we're now
(53:27):
at this layer up here.
And in order for me to go anywhere,
I need to come right from back to
foundations and actually look at the real basic
layers and take away, this is what we're
making up.
This is what we know is what we
don't know.
And then building up from there.
So I think, yeah, those kinds of things
have really helped.
Yeah.
I asked about that.
That's, I love, well, one of the main
(53:49):
things I love about what you just said
is that it allows you to be able
to contact reinforcers that you weren't able to
contact before, which is cool when you think
about knowledge.
And then my question about language was out
of curiosity, because of my own journey on
personal development at the moment and just realizing
that, so here's an example of where I've
(54:11):
used language in your situation with your, your
mother, again, no judgment.
I had the same with my mom, where
I love my mom, but where you get
disorientated because, and I think that comes from
a perception of the world, clashing with your
(54:32):
perception of the world or the way you
see things.
And then suddenly you question your own perception
and it becomes a little bit disorientating.
And I've called that, I've, I've given that
a name and that name is a clarity
squeeze, a clarity squeeze.
And then I've got, and now that's a
cue to do a behavior.
And that behavior is to just speak into
(54:57):
my phone's voice dictation app and record what
happened.
And then revisit that later at a time
where I can unpack it and get clarity
around that situation so that I can circle,
so that if I'm in a context that
shares similarities in the future, it can, I
can navigate that better.
That, that's where that question about language came
(55:20):
from in terms of, terms of ABA.
Gone off on a major, major tangent.
I think we've been going for about an
hour.
I'm sorry, Chirag, I really wanted to talk
about Nala the cat today.
I am glad we did it.
I love the fact that this is true
to the conversation we're having about accepting what
is and going this way rather than, and
actually I think it's made for an amazing
(55:41):
conversation because it's something that I may be
like, we don't necessarily hear on a podcast
or story sometimes.
And it's just like going, I think there's
so many useful things to kind of think
about and study there.
And so please don't apologize for me.
It's amazing.
And I really appreciate the opportunity to have
this environment to actually engage in some of
(56:03):
these conversations because it's not something that is
an environment that's easy to find.
And you're so good at the way you're
asking questions and just so easy to converse
with.
I, for me, there's so many reinforcers there
that my behavior contacts.
So I am grateful.
Well, I'm grateful too.
I think I've learned a lot of things.
Something I'll take away today is the reflection
(56:27):
on comments on social media that you might
find aversive.
And then, because that is a clarity squeeze.
That is your reality and some friction between
that reality and somebody else's reality.
And I'll do a Ryan Cartlidge modified version
(56:48):
of that.
Hey, talking about words and labels and bringing
the outside, bringing, sorry, bringing the inside out.
We're going to be doing that on the
16th of July.
So make sure we release this episode beforehand
with the label, reactive, reactivity.
(57:09):
Can you share with the listeners about this
exciting event happening inside the Animal Training Academy
members only area?
Yes.
So super exciting.
I think we've labeled it reacting to reactivity
and it's looking at this, this concept, this
idea that is often very common currently in
(57:31):
the training world about reactivity and reactive dogs.
And is it that the dogs are reactive
or are they engaging reactive behaviors?
Is reactivity a thing and is there a
protocol that we need to find to address
reactivity?
And I'm going to try and keep it
practical from the perspective of, I'm going to
(57:54):
use some videos that of dogs who maybe
could be labeled, fall under the typical label
of reactive.
And I'm going to show some work with
these dogs in like real time, unedited videos.
And we're going to watch like moment to
moment interactions and discuss them.
And I think that will be a great
(58:14):
vehicle, a great environmental arrangement to kind of
question things like what is reactivity and the
common beliefs and verbal behavior around reactivity.
So I can't wait.
I'm really excited.
Amazing.
We can't wait either.
I know that it's going to be a
very popular topic and event and guest speaker
for our members.
(58:36):
And if you're the listener and not already
a member and interested in joining, I'll pop
some links in the write-up for this
episode.
So you can come and hang out with
us as well.
Before we officially wrap up Chirag, do you
want to share with the listeners where they
can go online to find you?
If there's any events coming up that you
(58:57):
want to highlight for the listeners, then share
what the listeners can do after listening the
show to listen to you, see you, find
you again.
Sure.
So at Chirag Patel Consulting, C-H-I
-R-A-G, P-A-T-E-L,
Consulting.
That's my Instagram handle, also YouTube username and
(59:21):
Facebook page.
And so if you go to any of
those, you can find videos.
I'm more active currently on Instagram, but it
changes.
So yeah, those are the places where you
will find more up-to-date information about
myself, videos that I'm releasing.
I've got a juicy video that's coming out
maybe tomorrow or later tonight if I finish
(59:42):
editing it.
So on Instagram probably.
So yeah, have a look at those areas.
And also, if you haven't, we've mentioned Skinner,
this dude.
If you haven't heard of Skinner or you
haven't seen WF Skinner Foundation website, I would
highly encourage everyone to go check it out.
There's so many free resources and there's some
(01:00:03):
amazing videos and interviews and so many free
things that can be useful in the learning
journey and people who are interested in behavior.
So please go check that out.
Amazing.
We will link to all of that in
the show.
And one more thing, just before I forget,
this conversation came about because Chirag, the awesome
(01:00:25):
Sophie Bell and I have been connecting recently
to discuss Chirag's inaugural visit to the land
of the long white cloud, Aotearoa, or as
most of the rest of the world knows
us, New Zealand.
So if you are an Australasian listener, Chirag
will be joining us in Wellington, New Zealand
in November 2026 for a three or four
(01:00:47):
day event.
We're still deep in the planning phase, but
you can stay up to date via a
dedicated Facebook group we've created for the event.
And I'll pop the link to that in
the show notes as well.
Well, Chirag, this has been a ton of
fun.
We very much appreciate you, everything you're doing
with your life, changing the world, one animal,
(01:01:07):
one human learner at a time.
And thank you for coming and hanging out
with us at Animal Training Academy.
And thank you for being such an inspiration.
The stuff you're doing with ATA and just
your behaviours are super inspiring genuinely for me
as well.
So thank you so much.
And thank you so much for listening as
(01:01:30):
well.
This is your host, Ryan Cartlidge, signing off
from this episode of the Animal Training Academy
podcast show.
We hope today's conversation inspired you and equipped
you with new tools for your trainer's toolbox.
Remember, every challenge in training is an opportunity
to learn and sharpen your animal training geekery.
(01:01:54):
Embrace the rough patches, learn from them and
keep improving.
And don't forget, the path to growing your
skills and expanding your knowledge continues beyond this
episode.
Visit www.atamember.com to join our supportive
membership where you will find a community of
(01:02:16):
trainers just like you.
Together, we're making a huge positive difference in
the lives of animal and human learners worldwide.
Until next time, keep honing your skills, stay
awesome, and remember, every interaction with an animal
or human learner is your opportunity to create
(01:02:38):
ripples.
We're here cheering you on every step of
the way.
See you at the next episode.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.