December 16, 2024 • 53 mins
In this engaging two-part episode of the Animal Training Academy podcast, we are thrilled to welcome Craig Ogilvie, a globally respected dog trainer, behavior consultant, and business mentor. Craig has dedicated his career to having his biggest possible positive impact on the world of dog training with his innovative interactive play approach and a deep understanding of canine behavior.
In this first part of our conversation, Craig shares his journey that brought him from his early days as a child inspired by his grandfather’s work with police dogs to becoming one of the UK’s top subject matter experts in dog training. He reveals the pivotal moments, challenges, and breakthroughs that shaped his career, including his time as a police instructor, predatory motor patterns, and the creation of his training center - Ogilvie Dogs.
Listeners will gain valuable insights into Craig’s philosophy on training, his techniques for building confidence and engagement in dogs, and his unique approach to blending science, play, and practicality in every aspect of his work.
What You’ll Discover in This Episode:
- Craig’s inspiring journey from early mentorship to becoming an international dog trainining subject matter expert.
- The evolution of his interactive play methodology and its transformative impact on dogs and their owners.
- How Craig integrates scientific principles with hands-on techniques for real-world training success.
- The story behind the creation of Ogilvie Dogs and its role in shaping the future of dog training.
- Craig’s reflections on gratitude, happiness, and staying connected to one’s passion.
Why This Episode is a Must-Listen: Craig Ogilvie’s innovative methods, vast experience, and passion for improving the lives of dogs and their owners make this episode a treasure trove of inspiration and knowledge for trainers, behaviorists, and dog enthusiasts alike.
Engage With Us: Subscribe to the podcast, share this episode with fellow dog training enthusiasts, and join our community to discuss ethical, science-based training practices and beyond.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
Welcome to the Animal Training Academy podcast show.
I'm your host, Ryan Carledge, and I'm passionate
about helping you master your animal training skills
using the most positive and least intrusive approaches.
Here at ATA, we understand that navigating the
vast challenges you encounter in training requires a
(00:27):
comprehensive base of knowledge and experience.
It's common to face obstacles and rough patches
on your journey that can leave you feeling
overwhelmed and stressed.
Therefore, since 2015 we have been on a
mission to empower animal training geeks worldwide.
We've aided thousands in developing their skills, expanding
(00:51):
their knowledge, boosting their confidence and maximizing their
positive impact on all the animal and human
learners they work with.
We are excited to do the same for
you.
Simply visit www.atamember.com, join our vibrant
(01:12):
community and geek out with us.
And of course, in the meantime, enjoy this
free podcast episode as we explore new ways
to help you supercharge your training skills, grow
your knowledge and build your confidence so that
you can craft a life that positively impacts
(01:32):
every learner you encounter.
So without further ado, it's my very great
pleasure to welcome Craig to the show today,
who's patiently waiting by in Spain.
Craig, thank you so much for taking the
time to come and hang out with us
at Animal Training Academy.
(01:53):
Thank you for having me.
It's a massive pleasure, Ryan.
Thank you for the invite.
You're welcome.
You've been on my radar for a long
time, so I can't wait to learn more
about you and learn from you and dive
into all of the things we're going to
talk about over the next two episodes.
Craig, for part one of our recording, I
(02:13):
am pumped to learn about your story, where
you got started, where your career has taken
you and all the way up to what
you're up to today.
So to get us started, take us back
to where you very first learned about training,
about positive reinforcement and then just patch and
(02:36):
talk our ears off, Craig.
For sure.
So, oh God, it's a bit of a
long story.
So when I was a little boy, I
lived with my mum, my nan and my
granddad.
And my granddad was a police stock handler.
Um, so like some of my earliest memories
are with granddad.
He used to work nights predominantly.
(02:56):
And I always remember him coming home like
in the morning in his uniform with the
dog, heading off the bed and then seeing
him sort of later on in the day
once he'd woken up and going out and
training with him and the dogs.
He used to have like a van with
cages in the back.
And we used to go, there was a
place in London called Gladstone Park that we
used to go to.
And he used to take me down there
(03:16):
with the dog and he would show me
sort of different exercises, like sendaways and basic
obedience.
And as a little boy, I was just
really entranced by it.
And he was very much like a role
model for me.
Um, and at that point, I think that
the whole thought process was, I want to
be a police dog handler.
Like that was, that was like the starting
point.
Um, and then as granddad got older, he
(03:38):
retired.
So we worked through, worked through lots of
training with him when I was, when I
was like really young.
And then as he retired, we got a
family Labrador.
And that's where like, I really started to
do stuff myself because all of that point
working with Brandon, it was just like him
showing me stuff, showing off the dogs were
obviously big German Shepherds.
I was a tiny diddly child.
I couldn't really do much with them apart
(04:00):
from give them a fuss.
So we've got a Labrador.
Um, and that's where I started to sort
of with granddad through books.
I didn't have any direct tuition apart from
granddad, to be honest with you.
I just read books, um, and worked around
training the dog.
I realized at that point through the books
I was reading that the, and again, God,
this is, I'm 37 now.
Um, so this was a long, long time
(04:21):
ago.
Um, 30 years or so ago, it would
have been maybe a little bit less.
So during the course of like reading the
books and stuff, the training information wasn't as,
wasn't as it is now.
It was just, it was just a different
world.
Right.
And, but what I did realize through granddad
and like his old rolled up, uh, tea
tally, tuggy raggy toys that you had to
(04:43):
play with the dogs and the balls and
stuff that were rewards were super beneficial food.
And I, I understood toys, but nowhere near
to the degree that I did.
Then basically my understanding of toys then were
dogs tugging or biting onto stuff or dogs
chasing stuff.
So with my Labrador is all self-taught.
Samson was his name and went through training
with him.
And it wasn't really until I got to
(05:04):
about 17 when I started to drive that
it started to become more serious.
That was when I started to drive and
sort of sought after external mentorship.
I started to get involved in a sport
called working trials, um, in the UK.
And through that, I met a gentleman called
Mike, who was right at the back end
(05:24):
of his career as a behavior consultant in
London.
Um, and he very much got, I've got
everything to thank him for.
He's nearly 80 now.
And I still still speak to him once
every week to 10 days.
I love him to death.
He's like, he's a fantastic person.
And he just took me under his wing
run.
I was so, so I was so fortunate
because I was working at that time when
I left school, I did lots of things.
(05:45):
I, um, worked as a personal trainer and
a lifeguard and a gym assistant in a
gym for a little bit.
Um, I did some labor in jobs or
whilst trying to dog train in the, like
on the sidelines.
And then ultimately I got a apprenticeship as
a joiner, which allowed me sort of sustainable
income and to study, learn, and train.
(06:06):
Cause at that time, I mean, it wasn't
really an option to be a full-time
dog trainer in my head.
Mike was like this anomaly that had managed
to do it.
And I just didn't think that that would
be something that I would be able to
do, um, at that point in time.
So I was working as a joiner.
And then after, you know, being back and
forth with Mike for six months or a
year and starting to take on cases of
my own, et cetera, I thought, Oh God,
(06:26):
this is definitely possible.
Like I can really push on and do
this.
And then I started to get more interested
at science at that point, because obviously there
were varying ways of training conversations around training,
but nothing like it was now.
And that's when I started to self-study,
um, and really sort of dig into, um,
applied, uh, behavior analysis and, uh, Karen Pryor,
(06:50):
uh, Karen Pryor.
And then, oh my God, what's the lady
that writes the.
Leslie McDevitt.
Leslie McDevitt, but it was the lady that
mentored her.
Dr. Karen Overall.
Karen Overall.
Yeah.
I remember getting, thank you.
God, I'm getting old.
I can't remember, but I've read a lot.
I love that trail though.
That was fun.
(07:10):
She's super.
And I read her behavior manual.
So it was one of the first ones
I've read.
Um, I think I've read every copy to
be honest with you.
And it was back to front reading them
that really dug me into developing an understanding
of the science and behavior that I started
to apply, um, into my work.
And then it wasn't until sort of mid
twenties, mid thirties until I sought off the
(07:30):
board certification and then, um, like, uh, the
official study.
So that's when I worked with like a
behavior organization in the UK and studied towards
like a level six qualification, as you'd call
it in, uh, England, which is where I
developed more understanding of the science.
But at that point as well, it was,
(07:51):
uh, it was like a crossover for me,
because after meeting Mike, I then met a
gentleman named John who like very much fulfilled
a dad-like role for me.
Um, and he was really involved with working
Malinois and traveling to and from Europe for
a sport called Mondioring, which is basically obedience,
agility and criminal apprehension or biting.
(08:12):
And again, another person, Brian, that I just
can't kind of thank God for meeting him
because it's changed the whole course of trajectory
of my life because he afforded me the
opportunity to travel to and from Europe with
him to ring sport clubs, um, to competitions.
And when I was in my sort of
young twenties, I become the first person in
the UK to license, to wear the bike
(08:35):
costume in competitions in Europe, which was fantastic.
I was so lucky to be able to
do that and still being in sort of
young twenties, I was, I was gathering so
much experience so rapidly because basically I was
working from seven or six in the morning
until about two or three in the afternoon
at the joiner shop.
And then either heading off, I was in
Watford and the gentleman that helped me, John
(08:58):
was in Herefordshire.
Sometimes I'd go there in the evenings during
the course of the week, it was like
a two and a half hour drive.
I just got up there to train dogs
and then we'd be off to Europe at
the weekends to competitions and to different clubs
to wear the costume.
I was completely obsessed, like completely obsessed with
it.
And then that allowed me to develop like
a very unique skillset within like the group
(09:19):
that I mixed with, because it gave me
such a great, such a great understanding of
the predatory motor pattern, such a great understanding
of how to utilize it.
And basically such a great understanding of how
to effectively work with dogs biting stuff, which
was super, like it worked really, really well.
And then off of that, we were also
training dogs for the police, training dogs for
(09:40):
the military.
I started to deliver some seminars to like
different police and military organizations in the UK,
which then led to me working as an
instructor for the police.
So I went to deliver a few seminars
and was offered a job as a civilian
instructor for Wiltshire Constabulary, which at the time
(10:00):
was trifle.
So it was like Gloucestershire Police, Avon and
Somerset and Wiltshire, which I really, really enjoyed.
That again was a super unique, a unique
experience for me to be able to go
ahead with.
And it brought it a little bit full
circle as well, to be honest with you,
because the premise of grandad being a police
dog handler, that's always what I thought I'd
wanted to do as I got older.
(10:20):
I realized it was training dogs that I
wanted to do more than anything else.
And I got to sort of fulfill that
role with the police, which was superb.
At the same time, the business was was
doing really, really well.
And I was I was doing the police
job because I absolutely loved it.
It was pure reinforcement.
I kept on turning down opportunities to to
(10:40):
do things because I was I was busy
training police dogs.
At the same time, like around about when
I started working for the police, I'd started
to develop my version of introducing what I
was doing with the biting dogs to people
from different aspects outside of a biting sport
setting.
And that's when I sort of hashed the
term interactive play.
(11:02):
And basically that was developing when I worked
with sports dogs in my younger years, it
was very much considered that if a dog
was able to to bite out of the
gate, they were a good dog.
They had the ability to do so.
But there seemed to be such limited allowance
for dogs that couldn't do it organically or
(11:23):
their genetic influence on behavior wasn't so prominent
that it just come to them really quickly.
So the big dogs, the dogs that had
all of that gas in the tank, so
to speak, they're so easy, like you're just
working for the process and you're really developing
technicalities as they progress on.
But I really started to enjoy building the
dogs, like building the ones that couldn't quite
do it, or people think that people thought
(11:43):
that they couldn't quite do it and like
watching them grow during the course of training
sessions and, you know, going from this dog
isn't going to be able to do it
to the dog being able to bite a
man or a lady in a bike costume
was for me.
It really, really turned my cogs even more
so than the other bits that I was
doing because I was doing so much behavior
work at the time.
When you teach a puppy to run, you
(12:06):
run them through a ring sport process.
You basically start off with a rag or
a rolled up tea towel.
And a lot of the time, the movement
of the people trying to teach the puppies
to bite was super, super limited.
Like it was very static.
And like I because I learn in France
where everything is very movement orientated, I developed
like a real sharp, snappy style of movement,
(12:28):
which again ties back to the predatory motor
pattern.
So I started thinking, you know what?
There's definite premise in using this with the
dogs that I'm working with at home.
So on behavior consultations or one to ones
on training, I started to introduce play basically
as and when I could.
And it just made such a difference.
Ryan, like they were dogs.
I've historically worked through the course of my
(12:50):
consulting career with Malinois, Dutch shepherds, German shepherds,
rots in the old day, more so Dobermans,
Border Collies, Labradors, dogs that have got a
relatively strong time back to the predatory motor
pattern and bull breeds specifically for sort of
redirected biting issues.
And some of those dogs, I am absolutely
(13:10):
positive that giving them a sustainable outlet to
do in a large portion what they're bred
to do save their lives, because there were
so many dogs that were experiencing or people
that were experiencing biting related issues with the
dogs.
And it certainly wasn't agonistic behavior.
It was basically fluctuations and arousal due to
insufficient outlet or unmet needs during the course
(13:30):
of the dog's day to day.
And, you know, when you say to a
person, again, this was a good few years
ago when you're talking to somebody of a
bull breed, like we're going to teach this
dog to bite this thing.
You're going to just imagine like a person
sitting there with this dog that's biting stuff.
You know, hold on a minute.
You're going to teach the dog to bite
stuff.
We want to stop it by itself.
But that worked really, really well.
(13:50):
And I started to systemize it into the
interactive system that I developed.
And at the same time, I was approached
because I started to deliver workshops on it
for sporting people.
I've got a really good friend of mine
who's involved with different sort of sporting organizations
in the UK.
And I met him early on and he
(14:11):
asked me to go and deliver a biting
seminar for him after being on a biting
seminar with me.
And through that, I met people from different
sports, people that were involved in agility, obedience.
And I got asked by a lady to
go and deliver some motivational style play delivery
to a group of agility people.
And from there, it just blew up, right?
(14:34):
Like I was super clever with my limited
marketing knowledge at the time.
What I did was made like a really
prominent effort with outreach and basically making friends
with as many different on Facebook or agility
organizations in different locations over the world and
in different locations over the UK.
And I also got into the habit really
early of sharing all of the group photos
(14:56):
and the content from the workshops I was
doing.
And, you know, it's high.
I was doing some weeks, five or six
seminars a week.
They were like it was 18 dogs a
day and I'd be doing them.
God, for a good few years, back to
back, just like seminar after seminar after seminar.
And at the same time as it was
blowing up, somebody approached me to write a
book and said, would you be interested in
writing a book?
(15:16):
Obviously, at that point, I was like, yes,
100 percent.
Not really having any idea the commitment that
was involved in writing a book.
But I went ahead with it anyway.
And luckily, because I was so young, filled
with enthusiasm and energy, writing the book was
one of the easier things.
Editing the book wasn't so or proofreading the
book wasn't so easy, but getting all of
(15:38):
the information down on paper was pretty easy
because it was just it was in my
head.
So I just have like big work blocks
in the evening, sit down and sort of
zone in and get all written out.
I wrote the book.
I was really fortunate to launch that at
Crufts in the UK.
And the book did, you know, from from
my perspective, what I wanted to make was
a practical, actionable guide that people could take
(15:59):
training with them.
The book is only like that big.
And I wanted people to be able to
fit into their training vest, go and try
something, read, double check, highlight, scribble all over
it, and it really to be a practical
training guide.
And I think the book in its creation
did exactly what I wanted it to.
And I've had lovely feedback from it, from
people all over the world, which is superb.
(16:21):
And then so as I've worked through that
process, what I was also delivering or started
to deliver was like arousal related workshops and
working a lot in group settings with dogs
with problematic behaviors.
I deliver a seminar called Communication, Arousal and
Problematic Behaviors, which I've also delivered all over
the world, which is another another one I
(16:43):
do really regularly.
And then through working with so many different
people, I got opportunities.
I'd already done seminars and CPD for the
police and the military organizations in the UK,
because that's very much been my wheelhouse.
I then got invites from places such as
Battersea Dogs Home, the Dogs Trust, Blue Cross
(17:03):
and other rescue organizations over the UK, assistance
organizations in the UK.
People like Victoria Stilwell, I've spoken for their
organization.
I was super, super fortunate.
And, you know, at this point, right, I've
been very lucky for the last over a
decade now to travel all over the world,
delivering seminars.
(17:24):
I've been to, you know, Australia, Singapore, Mainland
Europe, the USA.
I feel so, so fortunate.
Like it's it's really sparked.
And I've taught on all different subjects across
the world.
And as I was doing that, the the
bump that I had was that I couldn't
continue to deliver in-person sessions from a
behavior perspective, as I was doing before.
(17:45):
I left the police ultimately because of the
commitment and wanting to grow the business.
And when I left the police, I then
ended up with another sort of first world
problem with regards to I can't deliver as
many behavior consults as I would like, because,
you know, I can't be there in person
because I'm traveling, you know, every weekend.
There was a point where I was getting
on a plane a couple of times a
month to travel.
(18:06):
So that's where I come up with my
coaching model.
And basically, I manipulated my behavior consultation process
to doing it primarily, well, all exclusively online,
which worked really, really well.
And that allowed me to facilitate a really,
really good amount of clients over the course
of a monthly basis.
And, you know, tick everybody's boxes, fulfill everybody's
(18:28):
needs with a coaching model that revolved around
like daily feedback and video critique, which which
worked really, really well.
And then a lot of that the audience
I was working with was split between people
with relatively severe behavior problems or people that
were dog trainers experience or behavior consultants are
(18:48):
experiencing problems with their own dogs.
And they basically needed an external set of
eyes to help them work it through.
And at that point, one of the guys
I was working with asked me if I
would give him some help with his business.
And I was like, yeah, sure.
So I said, I'll do it for free.
Let's have a look.
And I sort of had an overview of
his business.
And it turned out that it worked really,
(19:10):
really well, which is so I thought, oh,
God, there's something to this last a couple
of other people that I was working with.
Can I just give you some free guidance
and help just to say, I'm just like
testing something out or testing the water out
with stuff.
And it basically spiraled at the same time.
God, I'm missing stuff out even worse.
So at the same time, we'd recently we'd
(19:32):
invested in a farm.
So I'd started doing this sort of business
consultancy in inverted commas, and then we'd invested
in what is Isla Farm in the UK.
The there would have been what would have
been the timeline.
It must have been a couple of years
before we bought the farm.
But I started to do the business consultancy
stuff.
So we invested in the farm, which is
(19:54):
now the Ogilvy Dogs training center in Isla
Farm with like the air B&Bs and
stuff and the sense that we have in
the UK.
So on the build up to that, I
was I was already really quite business minded,
very, very fortunate to be so because we
also had like an investment portfolio for the
properties that we've got.
And that's like one of the other businesses
(20:15):
that we own.
So I started to help the gentlemen and
the guys and girls with the business stuff.
And then I thought, all right, there's definitely
something to this.
Let me go away and get some additional
training.
So I went away and got some proper
training.
This is all whilst we were continuing to
invest in the property stuff.
We just got the farm and we'd started
to lock eyes on the center building, the
(20:37):
business consultancy.
I never actively advertised at that point.
I was just working with people within my
group that were asking for help.
And it started to spread a little bit
by word of mouth.
And then COVID hit, which was like 2020.
So the coaching business was firing on all
cylinders.
And the business mentoring was just building little
(20:57):
by little.
And it wasn't like my prominent focus at
the point in time.
So we just got this farm in born
in England.
And luckily, I mean, COVID was obviously a
terrible time.
But it actually was a it was a
really, really productive period of time for the
development of Ogilvy Dogs, because the farm was
just all over the place when we got
(21:18):
there.
It was an absolute dump.
There was everything was in as worse condition
as it could be.
And it basically needed demolishing, flattening, getting ready
to go for the center to go up,
which we'd already put planning permission in for.
But it had been stumped because of COVID.
So over the course of the COVID period,
we basically spent a load of time flattening
the farm out.
The coaching business was running so well, I
(21:40):
was spending about six hours as a work
block or two work blocks in the morning,
first three hours.
And then I'd go off and work out
and come back and do another three hours.
So because I get up so early by
around about 10, 11 o'clock, my day's
work, so to speak, it was done because
I wasn't traveling or anything anymore.
And we just spent the rest of the
day flattening out the farm.
And then COVID passed.
(22:00):
We built the Ogilvy Dogs training center.
And at the same time, running in parallel,
the business mentoring started to become more and
more prominent.
And I started to onboard people.
I started to sort of advertise it for
it actively, still traveling and delivering seminars as
well.
But because sort of the commitment with the
mentoring was starting to become more and more
(22:20):
so, a little bit less so of my
choice.
But it was it was all the fact
of wanting to continue to travel, to stay
sharp.
That's something I'm really big on.
Like, I never, ever want my practical skills
to perish.
Still, at this point, I travel relatively regularly.
So as the business venture was building, the
Ogilvy Dog Center was launched and established, which
(22:41):
we've been very lucky with.
It's been super well.
It's like a one of only a few
training facilities of its type in the UK
and arguably the best one.
Obviously, I'm a little bit biased with that,
but arguably the best one in the UK.
And then the business mentoring started to get
to a point where I needed to onboard
some people and create a an agency, so
(23:03):
to speak, so that we could do everything
internally.
At which point I soft launched Big Bark
Media, which is the media agency that I
own, me along with my marketing executives and
sort of small team that work to facilitate
the business needs of lots and lots of
dog related, not just dog trading, but dog
related businesses across the UK.
(23:24):
So I've been really, really fortunate with the
really, really fortunate with the business mentoring.
That is the primary sort of time spent
at the moment for me, I spend the
majority of my time consulting businesses internationally, along
with the team.
And then we got it.
So it's a long story, right?
(23:45):
I feel like I'm talking at you straight
for half an hour.
And then after that, me and my wife
got married in the center, actually.
It was the first event we had like
the our wedding in the center.
And because work was so busy, we didn't
get time to go on a honeymoon.
So a year later, I was teaching in
(24:06):
Cyprus, which I've done sort of every other
year for a good amount of years.
I've got a really lovely relationship with a
lady there that works closely with rescue centers.
And Max asked me if I would go
out and teach.
And we sort of said, oh, you know,
why don't we go and have a little
bit of a honeymoon?
And this was the first time Ryan in.
I don't know how long I'd been on
holiday, like I've, you know, self-confessed workaholic,
(24:27):
but through choice.
And I really, really find it reinforcing.
So we went off and went to Cyprus.
I talk for a couple of days and
we had like a week or ten days
or so in Cyprus.
And it was the first time in a
long time that I realized how much difference
the weather made just to life in general,
because when I go on holiday, I always
work or do a big chunk of work
first thing in the morning.
And it was just different.
(24:48):
Like I answer a lot of my consulting
messages when I'm either walking or I'll do
them on the laptop and just having a
warm climate and not being clambered up inside
or having to wrap up like a snowman
every time you go outside makes such a
difference to the day.
And me and my wife was sitting down
talking during downtime.
And I was like, you know, what's stopping
us finding somewhere in a different country?
(25:08):
You know, everything ultimately now does not rely
on us being in one location.
We could ultimately move to somewhere else.
So we talked about a little bit.
And then the following year we went to
Thailand.
Again, exactly the same experience.
I was like, absolutely love the weather.
Like I love everything about all of the
stuff that we've created in the UK.
But the weather is the real blip point
(25:29):
for us.
So that's when we started thinking a little
bit more seriously about at least getting somewhere
that we could spend a little bit more
time for the course of a year.
And the businesses at this point were continuing
to grow.
I'd onboarded some more staff at Big Bark
Media.
And the Mentrum was was still the primary
focus with the Ogilvy Dog Centre still doing
really well and still traveling through the course
(25:50):
of the year, which I'm so super fortunate
to do.
I'm very, very lucky.
And then at the beginning of this year,
we decided to trial Spain for a month
of sort of remote working.
So we went off to Spain for a
month and worked remotely and come on back.
And whilst we were there, it was about
time to invest in another property within the
property company.
(26:10):
And we decided that what we would do
is rather than buy somewhere in the UK
to use primarily as a as a rental,
that we'd look at buying a holiday slash
location time that we'd spend some more time
in through the course of the year in
Spain.
And that's what we did.
So we bought a property in Spain and
we've spent like the last few weeks here
(26:32):
over the course of this year, which is
our first time being here, which I really,
really like.
And the plan is now basically to spend
time alternating between the UK and Spain, dependent
on the weather and sort of visas and
everything else that we need to collect for
being here.
And that's where I am now, my man.
I'm sorry, I feel like I've spoke to
you for like a straight half an hour.
(26:53):
It's been 25 minutes.
That's good.
That's the longest I've ever spoken to somebody
ever in my life.
I was hoping you were going to interrupt
me.
I did.
I said, Leslie Ben-Devitt and Karen Overall.
I was I was telling Craig to listen,
talking to the listeners.
Now, Craig, I was telling Craig before we
push record everyone that I was listening to,
(27:14):
correct me Craig, Debbie, Debbie, Debbie Potter.
I was listening to Debbie, Debbie Potter's podcast
with Craig as I was putting my daughter
to sleep before we recorded this.
And Debbie asked Craig to share a little
bit about his life.
And Craig said, I'm going to give you
the short version.
So I told Craig before we push record
today, none of that.
(27:36):
And so thank you for listening to what
I requested before we push record.
Hey, you know, my dad's name, Craig, was
Michael John Carledge.
So he's got both of your mentors wrapped
up in his name.
With any group, and he's been a lot
of his childhood in Cyprus.
(27:57):
So I mean, oh, we did go Michael,
Michael.
What's Michael's last name?
I feel like I want to give proper
credit to these.
Michael Woods, Michael Woods and John John Rumble.
John, I mean, Rumble.
How could you not say his last name?
If anyone if anyone's got kids and they
watch Paw Patrol, like Rumble's like a big
(28:19):
deal.
Craig, now, it's inspiring what you've shared.
I mean, I'm not sure of as many
listeners still listening.
We talk about them.
Yeah, well, I mean, there's probably no one
listening now, but for the one or two
people that are still here, because they left
it on in the background or whatever.
(28:39):
Now, not many of them probably have properties
in Spain and kind of have the opportunity
or the feel like they have the resources
or like the the mindset to believe that
that's even possible.
So you're living it.
(29:01):
We're listening to it for half an hour.
We're listening to it, and it's and it's
and it's and it's super inspiring.
Christian, what time do you get up in
the morning between three thirty and four a
.m. three thirty and four a.m. How
long have you done that for?
When I was a kid at school, I
(29:23):
was overweight for a large portion of my
childhood, probably.
Well, for as long as I could remember.
And I remember when I was a teenager,
I think about 13 or 14.
I just got tired of being overweight.
You know, typical problems with with being overweight,
being at school, being a teenager, et cetera.
So I decided in all of my wisdom
that the best thing to do was to
(29:45):
get up in the morning and go to
school at like five a.m. and run
laps of the track until I got skinny.
So I think the habit started there.
And I don't know where I got that
from, right?
I've got no idea.
My mom is an incredibly motivated lady.
She's always worked really hard and she was
like a single parent for the large majority
(30:07):
of her life.
So it's like seeing her work really hard,
get up early, go to work, I think
subconsciously must have had an influence on me.
Although if you'd have asked me at the
time, it was just direct action to reinforcement.
I was like, if I run, I'm going
to lose weight.
If I lose weight, I'm going to be
happier, which was certainly the case.
(30:27):
Yeah.
I mean, I tell people I get up
at five and that's shocking to a lot
of people, I think.
Well, these are these are potentially deeply personal
questions.
So you can tell me what time do
you go to bed?
Like how long is your day?
It's actually got it's got much later since
we've been in Spain for the last few
weeks.
If I was single, Ryan, I'd be asleep
at seven o'clock.
(30:47):
I'm definite certain I'd be asleep at seven
p.m. But normally now between eight and
nine.
So like try to get to bed between
eight and nine in the evening.
So usually go up to bed for eight
and I'm fast asleep by nine o'clock.
Like it would be the absolute latest.
There's not there's not there's not eight hours
of sleep now.
I'm on this like premise that that's important.
(31:09):
I don't know the science behind it.
It's usually around about seven.
I mean, when I was younger and I
was like completely mad, I'd be getting like
four or five hours sleep at night, like
I just just worked through all of the
time.
But now like between like seven hours is
absolutely superb.
If I can get a little bit more
than that, it also works fantastically.
(31:30):
But yeah, like seven to eight hours a
night is is ideal.
So what so you've shared with us about
your dog training and doing your seminars and
traveling the world.
And I've met a lot of people.
And this is I don't know this is
based on, but I just get a lot
of people who listen to this would love
(31:52):
to do that.
That would be quite fun, a fun job,
a fun position to be in that you
are sought after across the globe.
And you get to see all of these
places and you get to meet all of
these people.
Yeah, so, so forth.
And then you've got your property portfolio and
you've got your media business, which is creating
(32:16):
websites.
And it's basically in addition, it's tailored specifically
to suit the needs of dog related businesses.
So one of the things that we always
struggled with when we were building was sort
of conventional understanding of what was needed specifically
for a dog trainer.
And I created it to scratch our own
itch, because basically when I started the mentoring
(32:36):
process, we were outsourcing a large portion of
the meat, portion of the media work.
And unfortunately, like time delays and, you know,
not having a solid communication loop with the
external company, not getting things done quickly enough
led to me going, OK, let me on
board my own little team.
And I've got like a little team of
assassins, as I call them, which work for
(32:57):
us, and they do fantastically with all of
the businesses that we work with.
But it's directed at all of the media
needs for dog training or dog related businesses.
So like, are you satisfied with your current
success?
And that's why I'm laughing as I ask
that question.
(33:18):
I was going to say, well, how do
you, if you're never happy, how do you
how do you define success?
For me, I think I think happiness and
success are two different things.
I think success is dependent on the peer
group or the goals that you look for.
And for me, although I haven't got like
a massive social circle by any stretch of
(33:38):
the imagination, the people that I aspire to
be like are far beyond me.
I'd say happiness is consistent reinforcement in the
actions that you follow on a day to
day basis.
And from my perspective, I'm very happy with
the things I do on a day to
day basis.
I like getting up early.
I like doing a big chunk of work
first thing in the morning.
(33:59):
I like going to the gym.
I like training my dogs.
I like seeing my wife.
I like being in the sunshine.
I love traveling internationally, like I'm going to
Australia and Switzerland later on this month to
teach.
And I look forward to those trips, training
the dogs.
I was in Denmark the weekend before last.
I love consulting for businesses and helping people
grow and watching them, you know, make more
(34:21):
money than they thought that they ever could
do as part of the process.
So I think happiness is just reinforcement in
the actions that you follow on a day
by day basis.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, well, it reminds me of what Susan
shares and potentially others.
I couldn't credit the source of this.
And other people have said that well, depression
(34:42):
is a lack of reinforcement.
And then the opposite is happiness is an
abundance of reinforcement.
How do you frame it?
Can you say that again?
So I think happiness is consistent reinforcement in
the actions that you take on a day
to day basis.
So the behaviors you're doing are attached to
reinforcement.
You're reinforced for the things you're doing.
(35:04):
Exactly.
Yeah.
So because every day you've got most people
are stuck in a rhythm of doing things
on a day to day basis, in my
experience, that they have limited associative reinforcement around.
And then that drives the outcome for the
end of the day.
And if like we're very lucky as animal
trainers, I like to think that a good
portion of people that we work with are
very happy with what they do on a
(35:24):
day to day basis.
But if you look at somebody that's unhappy,
it usually ties back to the structure of
the routine that they follow on a day
to day basis.
Well, yeah.
And I'm reinforced for getting up at 5
a.m. and you're reinforced for getting up
at 3.30 a.m. My daughter often
gets me up at three.
One of my daughters anyway, she gets up
at 3.30 a.m. anyway.
But I'm not reinforced for that, Craig.
(35:46):
What do you think?
So so your success, you also said that
you people you aspire to be like are
far beyond you.
Did you say that?
Is that how you phrase that?
What do you mean by that?
I mean, a large portion of, you know,
when people say like you need to get
a mentor or you need to have somebody
to look up to.
I very much had that in John and
(36:07):
Mike when I was younger.
And I love them both for it.
And like from a business perspective, the majority
of inspiration or motivation that I've got has
been from listening to podcasts or listening to
people that have achieved great heights.
The small group that I've got are all
way above me in sort of business development,
which is great, as you're always looking to
(36:30):
aspire to be like those people.
So I think again, I think like success
and happiness, I think success is subjective, isn't
it, depending on the on the person?
Because, you know, there's lots of people that
have a really, really lovely family, are super
happy, and they that they've achieved ultimate success.
And my version of success, I guess, in
their version of success is two completely different
(36:52):
things.
I think that I just think that sometimes
like the word successful is so super objective,
isn't it?
It depends on where you're at in life
and what you want to what you want
to achieve.
Is there a different word that resonates more
with you?
Good question.
I just think it's all about happiness, right?
To be honest with you, that sounds super
soppy of me.
No, that's known.
(37:13):
I just think it's a love that answer.
Yeah, I think I think it's about being
happy.
I think we've got a finite amount of
time on this earth.
But most of us, if we're lucky, are
going to make it to 85 or 90,
which means I'm nearly halfway through my adult
life.
And I don't want to spend the days
doing things.
I worked in a joining shop when I
was young.
I hated it, right?
(37:33):
I hated it so much.
Like it was like the worst thing ever.
And it's like all I wanted to do
was to train dogs all of the time.
And I remember like having this morning where
I sat in my van before going into
work and I was working really hard to
try to change.
And this is a well, I guess it's
it's all related.
So I'll tell like I sat in my
van in the morning.
(37:53):
I was in my early 20s, like mid
mid to early 20s.
And I remember thinking, but I just want
this to change like whatever I need to
do to get this to change.
And at that weekend or the Thursday, I
think it was I was delivering a seminar
for biting dogs and I got married when
I was really young.
And I got a message whilst I was
(38:14):
doing the seminar.
And my wife said at the time, like,
I can't do this anymore.
I'm off.
I'm leaving.
I'm not coming back.
And I remember having like this obviously like
immediate upset and being like, oh, God, like,
what have I done?
And then, you know, after some conversation back
and forth, like I just had this moment
of like, I'm obviously not making this person
happy.
(38:35):
Without this relationship, maybe this is what I'm
being given to do the things I wanted
in my life improved like tenfold from that
point moving forward because I was able to,
you know, work and train dogs full time.
And I tried to never, ever, ever lose
the the gratitude for being able to do
(38:56):
what I do every day.
It's like it's it's so fortunate.
There's so many people that would kill to
do what I get to do.
And it's like I never, ever lose the
gratitude for it, because I think it's it's
it's the things that you do on a
day by day basis that make you happy.
You know, does that make sense?
It does.
And it potentially answers my next question.
And I was going to phrase it something
(39:17):
along the line of what do you think
is one of the biggest things that has
led to your success?
But you your answer before wouldn't make that
question need to be reframed.
So I came up with.
So what do you think has been the
biggest thing that has led to you being
able to craft a life that has led
to an abundance of happiness?
But you said something I think is really
(39:38):
pivotal there, and that is to try not
to lose gratitude for what you're doing every
day.
And I know for me, I wasn't super
happy when I was young.
And in my head, my self talk wasn't
very empowering.
It was a bit self degrading.
And I listened to a lot of books.
I listened to a lot.
(39:58):
I read a lot.
I listened to Anthony Robbins.
And one thing he told me that he
said at the time was to walk every
day and spend 15 concentrated moments thinking about
gratitude and the things you're grateful for.
And that changed my life.
And it was probably allowed me to connect
with happiness.
I think I don't know why, but that
(40:20):
stuck out to me.
How do you then, if you try not
to lose gratitude for doing what you do
every day, do you have intentional strategies that
you employ to allow you to stay connected
to that gratitude?
Yeah, 100 percent.
So for me, I also think that gratitude
has a good amount to do with being
uncomfortable as well, which sounds really counterproductive.
(40:42):
But I also like to get uncomfortable multiple
times per week.
Before we did this podcast early this morning,
Ryan, once I finished my work block, I
run up the mountain that we've got outside
of my house.
I genuinely thought I was going to have
a like a heart attack or something.
It was so hard to run up because
it's so steep and the altitude so high.
And I think that having moments whereas you're
(41:04):
able to completely remove yourself from what you
do on a day to day basis, concentrate
on the task within you that you're doing,
the task in front of you gives you
like a real exceptional amount of clarity, because
it's if the task is really hard and
it makes you uncomfortable, you can't really focus
on anything else.
You have to focus on the thing and
getting it done.
(41:25):
And I think that acts as like a
form of meditation, which then post that allows
you to reflect.
So I finished the run, for example, and
I was like overview of my schedule.
And I was like, I'm excited for the
podcast with Ryan this morning.
And then I've got consult calls with Jess
and Chris and all of these other people
that I'm talking to today.
And then I'm going to go later on
this evening, agility training with my wife because
(41:47):
she's prepping for a competition that she's doing.
So it's just like I think that that
period each day of active reset, which involves
either a little bit of being uncomfortable or
doing something that you can completely commit to
that can be walking.
If you don't want to get out and
go out in the cold, that certainly would
be the case for me in the UK.
It can be going to the gym.
(42:08):
I can be going for a jog.
It can be meditate and it can be
whatever you like.
But I think it's necessary for everybody to
have some type of an active reset every
day so that it just gives you a
sense of reality.
Otherwise, you just end up rolling with the
punches all day long.
And it's like, I've got to get up
and I've got to be at this appointment.
And, you know, this client's being a bit
of a pain in the bum.
And, oh, God, I don't know if I've
(42:28):
done that good a job with this dog.
And what am I going to do with
this here and how about that?
And I don't think they give themselves or
a majority of people give themselves any time
for active reflection.
And I think if you can just take
50, it took me 20 minutes to run
up there and back this morning because it's
not a gym day.
I'd usually go to the gym, but it's
a rest day.
And like after the 20 minutes, like it's
it's such an active reset.
(42:48):
Does that make sense?
It does.
And do you mean because because initially I
hadn't connected physical discomfort, was it was it
was the hill run physically uncomfortable?
It was horrible, right?
Like I didn't enjoy it, but I thought
when I got to the top of it,
it was going to be a problem.
(43:10):
Am I wrong?
Well, because you're going to pass out and
then no one will find you or something.
I thought, yes, I was I was struggling
to breathe.
But at that time, I couldn't focus on
anything else.
But keeping one foot going in front of
the other and breathing to make sure that
I didn't have some type of a an
asthma attack or something.
You know, I remember when I was working
(43:31):
at Wellington Zoo and they had conservation leave
so you could get paid to go do
some conservation project.
So I went into the mountains here in
New Zealand with the Kia Conservation Trust, Kias
are mountain parrots that live in New Zealand,
and we track them.
And I climbed the biggest mountain I've ever
climbed.
(43:51):
But it was hard and I wasn't super
fit.
And I just remember thinking one foot in
front of the other, one foot in front
of the other, because because it was so
hard by the end of that, getting to
the top of that hill.
And the Kia conservation guys were at the
top filming me as I came up laughing
at me, throwing things at me like they're
great guys.
And we had a lot of fun.
(44:11):
But that's so vivid, that memory of just
the hardness in a one foot.
And so I completely understand, I think, because
because that was a long time ago and
because it's so vivid in my mind and
because you literally see one foot in front
of the other.
Yeah, I think it's for me, it's just
a moment or a period of time where
(44:33):
you do something that is ultimately that is
for you, that is challenging enough that you
can't think about anything else.
Because I think that that acts as a
form of meditation and allows you to then
reflect on the things post that you're really
happy with.
Because, you know, if somebody is upset, down,
not having a good day, you know, I'm
very, very fortunate to work with tons and
(44:54):
tons of people developing businesses.
And I work with people that have that
type of thing all of the time.
It's no good me saying to somebody that's
really upset about something.
You just need to think how lucky you
are to be doing this, because it's so
counterproductive to say to them when they're having
this really bad time.
Well, you should be so grateful you get
to train dogs every day because it doesn't
work like that.
So what I'll say to them is always
(45:14):
like, OK, let's think about this.
Let's get out.
Go for a walk.
Go for a jog with the dogs.
Go for a bike ride.
Go for a swim.
What what part of movement do you find
reinforcing?
And they're like, well, I don't really like
this bit of I'll go for a bike
ride.
And they go out for a bike ride
as part of the bike ride.
They inevitably like get their body moving a
little bit more.
So they can't really focus on much else
(45:36):
but riding because that's and then they get
back.
And I think it just gives you a
functional reset.
So it's sort of I guess it turns
the question on its head a little bit
with regards to what are the processes that
you use to stay actively grateful.
I think you need a reset process or
to do something that allows you to reset
your mind to stay grateful, because I think
it's not, you know, if you speak to
(45:56):
somebody that's got, you know, like a job
that they're not fond of and they've got
like a lovely wife and kids at home
and you tell them to be grateful for
their wife and kids and they're, you know,
doing something that they absolutely despise.
There's such a disconnect between those two things,
because, yeah, they love their wife and kids,
but it doesn't make the things that they're
doing at that time any less undesirable.
(46:19):
And I think having the reset allows you
to really reflect on the things that you're
grateful for.
But also it gives you clarity to start
to think about changing the things that you're
not happy with.
And looking at the time, one other thing
I really want to ask you, but just
before we jump off this topic, do you
only mean physically uncomfortable or do you also
mean mentally uncomfortable?
(46:40):
Mentally uncomfortable.
Like yesterday morning, I'm learning Spanish and I
did a Spanish lesson yesterday morning.
And for me, physicality or moving is really
important.
That is my active reset.
But after that Spanish lesson, right.
And, you know, taking into account that I,
you know, do high level problem solving all
day long is a new problem to solve.
It's not animal behavior analysis.
(47:02):
It's not business strategy development.
It's learning a language like I'm back at
school, which is something I find really challenging.
And again, I wasn't able to focus on
anything at all.
I didn't look at a single notification.
All I focused on was the lady and
the group of people and answering the questions
and trying to compute all of the information.
So that, again, gives me another feeling of
(47:24):
complete active reset.
It can be reading a book, listening to
a podcast, but you've got to have something
to remove your mind from what's in front
of you.
Otherwise, you end up very reactive, so to
speak, to the circumstances that you're dealt, and
I think that impedes your ability to become
truly grateful.
Well, I really appreciate you sharing all of
it.
Thank you very much.
(47:44):
And the one thing I wanted to ask
before we jumped off this episode, we're going
to talk about play in part to everyone.
But in a short time, you know, I've
been connected, Craig, and there's conversations we've had
and what I've read about you online and
what I've listened to on other people's podcast
shows is I get.
And you've said it here today.
And so the listeners of this episode have
(48:05):
heard the importance of the mentors in your
life.
And is it is it full circle now
that you've come back to offering that to
others now?
Can you speak to the importance of mentorship?
Yeah, for sure.
I mean, certainly for me, like John and
Mike specifically are two of the people that
(48:27):
I love to death, like they've been so
irreplaceable in my life.
And if you'd have asked me, Ryan, 15
years ago, 10 years ago, 12 years ago,
if I was going to facilitate a business
mentoring role amongst dog trainers, I just said,
all I want to do is train dogs.
And, you know, still to this time, I
train dogs in my free time all of
(48:48):
the time because it's what I find reinforcing.
But there's something hugely reinforcing about trying to
help people get on their way when they're
getting started out or they're in the middle
of a journey and they don't know quite
what to do, because I've been very fortunate.
Well, I'm super, super lucky to have all
of the experience that I have, you know,
in the multitude of aspects of business development
and dog training or the dog world specifically.
(49:11):
And it's just it's really fun, Brian, you
know, watching people because it's never easy, you
know, building a dog training business, a behavior
consultancy business, a grooming business, etc.
etc.
It always comes with its own set of
challenges.
But it's really reinforcing for me being able
to help those people work through the bumps
and make the trajectory of point A to
(49:33):
point B much easier for them and having
somebody to go.
Oh, you know, I'm struggling with this.
What would you do?
And I go, oh, well, you know, there's
five different ways to do that.
This is the way that I would do
it.
But there's also these options as well.
What one sounds best to you?
And I go, oh, I'll do it the
way that you do it.
And I say, you sure?
Because, you know, these other options are legit
as well.
But that's definitely what I would do.
And I go, OK, perfect.
(49:53):
So it's just it saves people so much
time and it allows you to help them,
you know, project and and achieve what they're
capable of in training dogs and working with
animals rather than having to stress about all
of the other parts that go into building
a business.
I do find it really reinforcing.
It's something that I really enjoy.
Like it's been a it's another chapter to
(50:14):
the book that I didn't predict or set
out to do actively.
But as with all of the things that
I've done through the course of sort of
my animal training career, there are they've always
been things that have been presented to me
and that there's been an opening.
And I've sort of capitalized on the opening
and thought, you know, that works really well.
Why don't I try and do a little
bit more of that?
And it's always ended up working out.
(50:35):
So I've been so super fortunate around, for
sure.
But yes, it's it's so reinforcing.
Well, I've got a million questions about we've
been going for a solid hour, I think
nearly by the time we add the intros
and outros and everything.
Craig, this episode will be roughly an hour
long.
So unfortunately, I'm going to have to not
ask all of the million questions I have
(50:57):
for you, but rather share gratitude to you
for sharing what we love to call your
behavioral odyssey with us.
We love hearing about people's journey.
So thank you very much for sharing yours
with us, Craig.
Just before we do officially wrap up, though,
part one of this episode, could you share
with everyone listening where they can go to
learn more about you, the services you offer,
(51:18):
the mentoring you were just talking about and
how they can get in touch?
Instagram is the easiest place to drop us
a message.
So Craig Ogilvy Dogs on Instagram.
The website is OgilvyDogs.com.
But if you want to chat or have
a conversation, just fire us a message over
on Instagram.
I'm also on TikTok and Facebook, all of
the same handles.
But if you need anything, Instagram is my
(51:38):
most used platform to drop us a message.
Fantastic.
And we will, of course, link to all
of that in the show notes as well.
If that's easier for you, the listener.
Craig, this has been so much fun.
So from myself and on behalf of everyone
listening, we really appreciate you taking the time
to come and hang out with us.
Thank you so much.
Thank you so much for having me, Ryan.
(52:00):
And thank you so much for listening as
well.
This is your host, Ryan Cartlidge, signing off
from this episode of the Animal Training Academy
podcast show.
We hope today's conversation inspired you and equipped
you with new tools for your trainer's toolbox.
Remember, every challenge in training is an opportunity
(52:22):
to learn and sharpen your animal training geekery.
Embrace the rough patches, learn from them and
keep improving.
And don't forget the path to growing your
skills and expanding your knowledge continues beyond this
episode.
Visit www.atamember.com to join our supportive
(52:46):
membership, where you will find a community of
trainers just like you.
Together, we're making a huge positive difference in
the lives of animal and human learners worldwide.
Until next time, keep honing your skills.
Stay awesome.
And remember, every interaction with an animal or
(53:08):
human learner is your opportunity to create ripples.
We're here cheering you on every step of
the way.
See you at the next episode.
Welcome to the Animal Training Academy podcast show.
I'm your host, Ryan Carledge, and I'm passionate
about helping you master your animal training skills
using the most positive and least intrusive approaches.
Here at ATA, we understand that navigating the
vast challenges you encounter in training requires a
(00:27):
comprehensive base of knowledge and experience.
It's common to face obstacles and rough patches
on your journey that can leave you feeling
overwhelmed and stressed.
Therefore, since 2015 we have been on a
mission to empower animal training geeks worldwide.
We've aided thousands in developing their skills, expanding
(00:51):
their knowledge, boosting their confidence and maximizing their
positive impact on all the animal and human
learners they work with.
We are excited to do the same for
you.
Simply visit www.atamember.com, join our vibrant
(01:12):
community and geek out with us.
And of course, in the meantime, enjoy this
free podcast episode as we explore new ways
to help you supercharge your training skills, grow
your knowledge and build your confidence so that
you can craft a life that positively impacts
(01:32):
every learner you encounter.
So without further ado, it's my very great
pleasure to welcome Craig to the show today,
who's patiently waiting by in Spain.
Craig, thank you so much for taking the
time to come and hang out with us
at Animal Training Academy.
(01:53):
Thank you for having me.
It's a massive pleasure, Ryan.
Thank you for the invite.
You're welcome.
You've been on my radar for a long
time, so I can't wait to learn more
about you and learn from you and dive
into all of the things we're going to
talk about over the next two episodes.
Craig, for part one of our recording, I
(02:13):
am pumped to learn about your story, where
you got started, where your career has taken
you and all the way up to what
you're up to today.
So to get us started, take us back
to where you very first learned about training,
about positive reinforcement and then just patch and
(02:36):
talk our ears off, Craig.
For sure.
So, oh God, it's a bit of a
long story.
So when I was a little boy, I
lived with my mum, my nan and my
granddad.
And my granddad was a police stock handler.
Um, so like some of my earliest memories
are with granddad.
He used to work nights predominantly.
(02:56):
And I always remember him coming home like
in the morning in his uniform with the
dog, heading off the bed and then seeing
him sort of later on in the day
once he'd woken up and going out and
training with him and the dogs.
He used to have like a van with
cages in the back.
And we used to go, there was a
place in London called Gladstone Park that we
used to go to.
And he used to take me down there
(03:16):
with the dog and he would show me
sort of different exercises, like sendaways and basic
obedience.
And as a little boy, I was just
really entranced by it.
And he was very much like a role
model for me.
Um, and at that point, I think that
the whole thought process was, I want to
be a police dog handler.
Like that was, that was like the starting
point.
Um, and then as granddad got older, he
(03:38):
retired.
So we worked through, worked through lots of
training with him when I was, when I
was like really young.
And then as he retired, we got a
family Labrador.
And that's where like, I really started to
do stuff myself because all of that point
working with Brandon, it was just like him
showing me stuff, showing off the dogs were
obviously big German Shepherds.
I was a tiny diddly child.
I couldn't really do much with them apart
(04:00):
from give them a fuss.
So we've got a Labrador.
Um, and that's where I started to sort
of with granddad through books.
I didn't have any direct tuition apart from
granddad, to be honest with you.
I just read books, um, and worked around
training the dog.
I realized at that point through the books
I was reading that the, and again, God,
this is, I'm 37 now.
Um, so this was a long, long time
(04:21):
ago.
Um, 30 years or so ago, it would
have been maybe a little bit less.
So during the course of like reading the
books and stuff, the training information wasn't as,
wasn't as it is now.
It was just, it was just a different
world.
Right.
And, but what I did realize through granddad
and like his old rolled up, uh, tea
tally, tuggy raggy toys that you had to
(04:43):
play with the dogs and the balls and
stuff that were rewards were super beneficial food.
And I, I understood toys, but nowhere near
to the degree that I did.
Then basically my understanding of toys then were
dogs tugging or biting onto stuff or dogs
chasing stuff.
So with my Labrador is all self-taught.
Samson was his name and went through training
with him.
And it wasn't really until I got to
(05:04):
about 17 when I started to drive that
it started to become more serious.
That was when I started to drive and
sort of sought after external mentorship.
I started to get involved in a sport
called working trials, um, in the UK.
And through that, I met a gentleman called
Mike, who was right at the back end
(05:24):
of his career as a behavior consultant in
London.
Um, and he very much got, I've got
everything to thank him for.
He's nearly 80 now.
And I still still speak to him once
every week to 10 days.
I love him to death.
He's like, he's a fantastic person.
And he just took me under his wing
run.
I was so, so I was so fortunate
because I was working at that time when
I left school, I did lots of things.
(05:45):
I, um, worked as a personal trainer and
a lifeguard and a gym assistant in a
gym for a little bit.
Um, I did some labor in jobs or
whilst trying to dog train in the, like
on the sidelines.
And then ultimately I got a apprenticeship as
a joiner, which allowed me sort of sustainable
income and to study, learn, and train.
(06:06):
Cause at that time, I mean, it wasn't
really an option to be a full-time
dog trainer in my head.
Mike was like this anomaly that had managed
to do it.
And I just didn't think that that would
be something that I would be able to
do, um, at that point in time.
So I was working as a joiner.
And then after, you know, being back and
forth with Mike for six months or a
year and starting to take on cases of
my own, et cetera, I thought, Oh God,
(06:26):
this is definitely possible.
Like I can really push on and do
this.
And then I started to get more interested
at science at that point, because obviously there
were varying ways of training conversations around training,
but nothing like it was now.
And that's when I started to self-study,
um, and really sort of dig into, um,
applied, uh, behavior analysis and, uh, Karen Pryor,
(06:50):
uh, Karen Pryor.
And then, oh my God, what's the lady
that writes the.
Leslie McDevitt.
Leslie McDevitt, but it was the lady that
mentored her.
Dr. Karen Overall.
Karen Overall.
Yeah.
I remember getting, thank you.
God, I'm getting old.
I can't remember, but I've read a lot.
I love that trail though.
That was fun.
(07:10):
She's super.
And I read her behavior manual.
So it was one of the first ones
I've read.
Um, I think I've read every copy to
be honest with you.
And it was back to front reading them
that really dug me into developing an understanding
of the science and behavior that I started
to apply, um, into my work.
And then it wasn't until sort of mid
twenties, mid thirties until I sought off the
(07:30):
board certification and then, um, like, uh, the
official study.
So that's when I worked with like a
behavior organization in the UK and studied towards
like a level six qualification, as you'd call
it in, uh, England, which is where I
developed more understanding of the science.
But at that point as well, it was,
(07:51):
uh, it was like a crossover for me,
because after meeting Mike, I then met a
gentleman named John who like very much fulfilled
a dad-like role for me.
Um, and he was really involved with working
Malinois and traveling to and from Europe for
a sport called Mondioring, which is basically obedience,
agility and criminal apprehension or biting.
(08:12):
And again, another person, Brian, that I just
can't kind of thank God for meeting him
because it's changed the whole course of trajectory
of my life because he afforded me the
opportunity to travel to and from Europe with
him to ring sport clubs, um, to competitions.
And when I was in my sort of
young twenties, I become the first person in
the UK to license, to wear the bike
(08:35):
costume in competitions in Europe, which was fantastic.
I was so lucky to be able to
do that and still being in sort of
young twenties, I was, I was gathering so
much experience so rapidly because basically I was
working from seven or six in the morning
until about two or three in the afternoon
at the joiner shop.
And then either heading off, I was in
Watford and the gentleman that helped me, John
(08:58):
was in Herefordshire.
Sometimes I'd go there in the evenings during
the course of the week, it was like
a two and a half hour drive.
I just got up there to train dogs
and then we'd be off to Europe at
the weekends to competitions and to different clubs
to wear the costume.
I was completely obsessed, like completely obsessed with
it.
And then that allowed me to develop like
a very unique skillset within like the group
(09:19):
that I mixed with, because it gave me
such a great, such a great understanding of
the predatory motor pattern, such a great understanding
of how to utilize it.
And basically such a great understanding of how
to effectively work with dogs biting stuff, which
was super, like it worked really, really well.
And then off of that, we were also
training dogs for the police, training dogs for
(09:40):
the military.
I started to deliver some seminars to like
different police and military organizations in the UK,
which then led to me working as an
instructor for the police.
So I went to deliver a few seminars
and was offered a job as a civilian
instructor for Wiltshire Constabulary, which at the time
(10:00):
was trifle.
So it was like Gloucestershire Police, Avon and
Somerset and Wiltshire, which I really, really enjoyed.
That again was a super unique, a unique
experience for me to be able to go
ahead with.
And it brought it a little bit full
circle as well, to be honest with you,
because the premise of grandad being a police
dog handler, that's always what I thought I'd
wanted to do as I got older.
(10:20):
I realized it was training dogs that I
wanted to do more than anything else.
And I got to sort of fulfill that
role with the police, which was superb.
At the same time, the business was was
doing really, really well.
And I was I was doing the police
job because I absolutely loved it.
It was pure reinforcement.
I kept on turning down opportunities to to
(10:40):
do things because I was I was busy
training police dogs.
At the same time, like around about when
I started working for the police, I'd started
to develop my version of introducing what I
was doing with the biting dogs to people
from different aspects outside of a biting sport
setting.
And that's when I sort of hashed the
term interactive play.
(11:02):
And basically that was developing when I worked
with sports dogs in my younger years, it
was very much considered that if a dog
was able to to bite out of the
gate, they were a good dog.
They had the ability to do so.
But there seemed to be such limited allowance
for dogs that couldn't do it organically or
(11:23):
their genetic influence on behavior wasn't so prominent
that it just come to them really quickly.
So the big dogs, the dogs that had
all of that gas in the tank, so
to speak, they're so easy, like you're just
working for the process and you're really developing
technicalities as they progress on.
But I really started to enjoy building the
dogs, like building the ones that couldn't quite
do it, or people think that people thought
(11:43):
that they couldn't quite do it and like
watching them grow during the course of training
sessions and, you know, going from this dog
isn't going to be able to do it
to the dog being able to bite a
man or a lady in a bike costume
was for me.
It really, really turned my cogs even more
so than the other bits that I was
doing because I was doing so much behavior
work at the time.
When you teach a puppy to run, you
(12:06):
run them through a ring sport process.
You basically start off with a rag or
a rolled up tea towel.
And a lot of the time, the movement
of the people trying to teach the puppies
to bite was super, super limited.
Like it was very static.
And like I because I learn in France
where everything is very movement orientated, I developed
like a real sharp, snappy style of movement,
(12:28):
which again ties back to the predatory motor
pattern.
So I started thinking, you know what?
There's definite premise in using this with the
dogs that I'm working with at home.
So on behavior consultations or one to ones
on training, I started to introduce play basically
as and when I could.
And it just made such a difference.
Ryan, like they were dogs.
I've historically worked through the course of my
(12:50):
consulting career with Malinois, Dutch shepherds, German shepherds,
rots in the old day, more so Dobermans,
Border Collies, Labradors, dogs that have got a
relatively strong time back to the predatory motor
pattern and bull breeds specifically for sort of
redirected biting issues.
And some of those dogs, I am absolutely
(13:10):
positive that giving them a sustainable outlet to
do in a large portion what they're bred
to do save their lives, because there were
so many dogs that were experiencing or people
that were experiencing biting related issues with the
dogs.
And it certainly wasn't agonistic behavior.
It was basically fluctuations and arousal due to
insufficient outlet or unmet needs during the course
(13:30):
of the dog's day to day.
And, you know, when you say to a
person, again, this was a good few years
ago when you're talking to somebody of a
bull breed, like we're going to teach this
dog to bite this thing.
You're going to just imagine like a person
sitting there with this dog that's biting stuff.
You know, hold on a minute.
You're going to teach the dog to bite
stuff.
We want to stop it by itself.
But that worked really, really well.
(13:50):
And I started to systemize it into the
interactive system that I developed.
And at the same time, I was approached
because I started to deliver workshops on it
for sporting people.
I've got a really good friend of mine
who's involved with different sort of sporting organizations
in the UK.
And I met him early on and he
(14:11):
asked me to go and deliver a biting
seminar for him after being on a biting
seminar with me.
And through that, I met people from different
sports, people that were involved in agility, obedience.
And I got asked by a lady to
go and deliver some motivational style play delivery
to a group of agility people.
And from there, it just blew up, right?
(14:34):
Like I was super clever with my limited
marketing knowledge at the time.
What I did was made like a really
prominent effort with outreach and basically making friends
with as many different on Facebook or agility
organizations in different locations over the world and
in different locations over the UK.
And I also got into the habit really
early of sharing all of the group photos
(14:56):
and the content from the workshops I was
doing.
And, you know, it's high.
I was doing some weeks, five or six
seminars a week.
They were like it was 18 dogs a
day and I'd be doing them.
God, for a good few years, back to
back, just like seminar after seminar after seminar.
And at the same time as it was
blowing up, somebody approached me to write a
book and said, would you be interested in
writing a book?
(15:16):
Obviously, at that point, I was like, yes,
100 percent.
Not really having any idea the commitment that
was involved in writing a book.
But I went ahead with it anyway.
And luckily, because I was so young, filled
with enthusiasm and energy, writing the book was
one of the easier things.
Editing the book wasn't so or proofreading the
book wasn't so easy, but getting all of
(15:38):
the information down on paper was pretty easy
because it was just it was in my
head.
So I just have like big work blocks
in the evening, sit down and sort of
zone in and get all written out.
I wrote the book.
I was really fortunate to launch that at
Crufts in the UK.
And the book did, you know, from from
my perspective, what I wanted to make was
a practical, actionable guide that people could take
(15:59):
training with them.
The book is only like that big.
And I wanted people to be able to
fit into their training vest, go and try
something, read, double check, highlight, scribble all over
it, and it really to be a practical
training guide.
And I think the book in its creation
did exactly what I wanted it to.
And I've had lovely feedback from it, from
people all over the world, which is superb.
(16:21):
And then so as I've worked through that
process, what I was also delivering or started
to deliver was like arousal related workshops and
working a lot in group settings with dogs
with problematic behaviors.
I deliver a seminar called Communication, Arousal and
Problematic Behaviors, which I've also delivered all over
the world, which is another another one I
(16:43):
do really regularly.
And then through working with so many different
people, I got opportunities.
I'd already done seminars and CPD for the
police and the military organizations in the UK,
because that's very much been my wheelhouse.
I then got invites from places such as
Battersea Dogs Home, the Dogs Trust, Blue Cross
(17:03):
and other rescue organizations over the UK, assistance
organizations in the UK.
People like Victoria Stilwell, I've spoken for their
organization.
I was super, super fortunate.
And, you know, at this point, right, I've
been very lucky for the last over a
decade now to travel all over the world,
delivering seminars.
(17:24):
I've been to, you know, Australia, Singapore, Mainland
Europe, the USA.
I feel so, so fortunate.
Like it's it's really sparked.
And I've taught on all different subjects across
the world.
And as I was doing that, the the
bump that I had was that I couldn't
continue to deliver in-person sessions from a
behavior perspective, as I was doing before.
(17:45):
I left the police ultimately because of the
commitment and wanting to grow the business.
And when I left the police, I then
ended up with another sort of first world
problem with regards to I can't deliver as
many behavior consults as I would like, because,
you know, I can't be there in person
because I'm traveling, you know, every weekend.
There was a point where I was getting
on a plane a couple of times a
month to travel.
(18:06):
So that's where I come up with my
coaching model.
And basically, I manipulated my behavior consultation process
to doing it primarily, well, all exclusively online,
which worked really, really well.
And that allowed me to facilitate a really,
really good amount of clients over the course
of a monthly basis.
And, you know, tick everybody's boxes, fulfill everybody's
(18:28):
needs with a coaching model that revolved around
like daily feedback and video critique, which which
worked really, really well.
And then a lot of that the audience
I was working with was split between people
with relatively severe behavior problems or people that
were dog trainers experience or behavior consultants are
(18:48):
experiencing problems with their own dogs.
And they basically needed an external set of
eyes to help them work it through.
And at that point, one of the guys
I was working with asked me if I
would give him some help with his business.
And I was like, yeah, sure.
So I said, I'll do it for free.
Let's have a look.
And I sort of had an overview of
his business.
And it turned out that it worked really,
(19:10):
really well, which is so I thought, oh,
God, there's something to this last a couple
of other people that I was working with.
Can I just give you some free guidance
and help just to say, I'm just like
testing something out or testing the water out
with stuff.
And it basically spiraled at the same time.
God, I'm missing stuff out even worse.
So at the same time, we'd recently we'd
(19:32):
invested in a farm.
So I'd started doing this sort of business
consultancy in inverted commas, and then we'd invested
in what is Isla Farm in the UK.
The there would have been what would have
been the timeline.
It must have been a couple of years
before we bought the farm.
But I started to do the business consultancy
stuff.
So we invested in the farm, which is
(19:54):
now the Ogilvy Dogs training center in Isla
Farm with like the air B&Bs and
stuff and the sense that we have in
the UK.
So on the build up to that, I
was I was already really quite business minded,
very, very fortunate to be so because we
also had like an investment portfolio for the
properties that we've got.
And that's like one of the other businesses
(20:15):
that we own.
So I started to help the gentlemen and
the guys and girls with the business stuff.
And then I thought, all right, there's definitely
something to this.
Let me go away and get some additional
training.
So I went away and got some proper
training.
This is all whilst we were continuing to
invest in the property stuff.
We just got the farm and we'd started
to lock eyes on the center building, the
(20:37):
business consultancy.
I never actively advertised at that point.
I was just working with people within my
group that were asking for help.
And it started to spread a little bit
by word of mouth.
And then COVID hit, which was like 2020.
So the coaching business was firing on all
cylinders.
And the business mentoring was just building little
(20:57):
by little.
And it wasn't like my prominent focus at
the point in time.
So we just got this farm in born
in England.
And luckily, I mean, COVID was obviously a
terrible time.
But it actually was a it was a
really, really productive period of time for the
development of Ogilvy Dogs, because the farm was
just all over the place when we got
(21:18):
there.
It was an absolute dump.
There was everything was in as worse condition
as it could be.
And it basically needed demolishing, flattening, getting ready
to go for the center to go up,
which we'd already put planning permission in for.
But it had been stumped because of COVID.
So over the course of the COVID period,
we basically spent a load of time flattening
the farm out.
The coaching business was running so well, I
(21:40):
was spending about six hours as a work
block or two work blocks in the morning,
first three hours.
And then I'd go off and work out
and come back and do another three hours.
So because I get up so early by
around about 10, 11 o'clock, my day's
work, so to speak, it was done because
I wasn't traveling or anything anymore.
And we just spent the rest of the
day flattening out the farm.
And then COVID passed.
(22:00):
We built the Ogilvy Dogs training center.
And at the same time, running in parallel,
the business mentoring started to become more and
more prominent.
And I started to onboard people.
I started to sort of advertise it for
it actively, still traveling and delivering seminars as
well.
But because sort of the commitment with the
mentoring was starting to become more and more
(22:20):
so, a little bit less so of my
choice.
But it was it was all the fact
of wanting to continue to travel, to stay
sharp.
That's something I'm really big on.
Like, I never, ever want my practical skills
to perish.
Still, at this point, I travel relatively regularly.
So as the business venture was building, the
Ogilvy Dog Center was launched and established, which
(22:41):
we've been very lucky with.
It's been super well.
It's like a one of only a few
training facilities of its type in the UK
and arguably the best one.
Obviously, I'm a little bit biased with that,
but arguably the best one in the UK.
And then the business mentoring started to get
to a point where I needed to onboard
some people and create a an agency, so
(23:03):
to speak, so that we could do everything
internally.
At which point I soft launched Big Bark
Media, which is the media agency that I
own, me along with my marketing executives and
sort of small team that work to facilitate
the business needs of lots and lots of
dog related, not just dog trading, but dog
related businesses across the UK.
(23:24):
So I've been really, really fortunate with the
really, really fortunate with the business mentoring.
That is the primary sort of time spent
at the moment for me, I spend the
majority of my time consulting businesses internationally, along
with the team.
And then we got it.
So it's a long story, right?
(23:45):
I feel like I'm talking at you straight
for half an hour.
And then after that, me and my wife
got married in the center, actually.
It was the first event we had like
the our wedding in the center.
And because work was so busy, we didn't
get time to go on a honeymoon.
So a year later, I was teaching in
(24:06):
Cyprus, which I've done sort of every other
year for a good amount of years.
I've got a really lovely relationship with a
lady there that works closely with rescue centers.
And Max asked me if I would go
out and teach.
And we sort of said, oh, you know,
why don't we go and have a little
bit of a honeymoon?
And this was the first time Ryan in.
I don't know how long I'd been on
holiday, like I've, you know, self-confessed workaholic,
(24:27):
but through choice.
And I really, really find it reinforcing.
So we went off and went to Cyprus.
I talk for a couple of days and
we had like a week or ten days
or so in Cyprus.
And it was the first time in a
long time that I realized how much difference
the weather made just to life in general,
because when I go on holiday, I always
work or do a big chunk of work
first thing in the morning.
And it was just different.
(24:48):
Like I answer a lot of my consulting
messages when I'm either walking or I'll do
them on the laptop and just having a
warm climate and not being clambered up inside
or having to wrap up like a snowman
every time you go outside makes such a
difference to the day.
And me and my wife was sitting down
talking during downtime.
And I was like, you know, what's stopping
us finding somewhere in a different country?
(25:08):
You know, everything ultimately now does not rely
on us being in one location.
We could ultimately move to somewhere else.
So we talked about a little bit.
And then the following year we went to
Thailand.
Again, exactly the same experience.
I was like, absolutely love the weather.
Like I love everything about all of the
stuff that we've created in the UK.
But the weather is the real blip point
(25:29):
for us.
So that's when we started thinking a little
bit more seriously about at least getting somewhere
that we could spend a little bit more
time for the course of a year.
And the businesses at this point were continuing
to grow.
I'd onboarded some more staff at Big Bark
Media.
And the Mentrum was was still the primary
focus with the Ogilvy Dog Centre still doing
really well and still traveling through the course
(25:50):
of the year, which I'm so super fortunate
to do.
I'm very, very lucky.
And then at the beginning of this year,
we decided to trial Spain for a month
of sort of remote working.
So we went off to Spain for a
month and worked remotely and come on back.
And whilst we were there, it was about
time to invest in another property within the
property company.
(26:10):
And we decided that what we would do
is rather than buy somewhere in the UK
to use primarily as a as a rental,
that we'd look at buying a holiday slash
location time that we'd spend some more time
in through the course of the year in
Spain.
And that's what we did.
So we bought a property in Spain and
we've spent like the last few weeks here
(26:32):
over the course of this year, which is
our first time being here, which I really,
really like.
And the plan is now basically to spend
time alternating between the UK and Spain, dependent
on the weather and sort of visas and
everything else that we need to collect for
being here.
And that's where I am now, my man.
I'm sorry, I feel like I've spoke to
you for like a straight half an hour.
(26:53):
It's been 25 minutes.
That's good.
That's the longest I've ever spoken to somebody
ever in my life.
I was hoping you were going to interrupt
me.
I did.
I said, Leslie Ben-Devitt and Karen Overall.
I was I was telling Craig to listen,
talking to the listeners.
Now, Craig, I was telling Craig before we
push record everyone that I was listening to,
(27:14):
correct me Craig, Debbie, Debbie, Debbie Potter.
I was listening to Debbie, Debbie Potter's podcast
with Craig as I was putting my daughter
to sleep before we recorded this.
And Debbie asked Craig to share a little
bit about his life.
And Craig said, I'm going to give you
the short version.
So I told Craig before we push record
today, none of that.
(27:36):
And so thank you for listening to what
I requested before we push record.
Hey, you know, my dad's name, Craig, was
Michael John Carledge.
So he's got both of your mentors wrapped
up in his name.
With any group, and he's been a lot
of his childhood in Cyprus.
(27:57):
So I mean, oh, we did go Michael,
Michael.
What's Michael's last name?
I feel like I want to give proper
credit to these.
Michael Woods, Michael Woods and John John Rumble.
John, I mean, Rumble.
How could you not say his last name?
If anyone if anyone's got kids and they
watch Paw Patrol, like Rumble's like a big
(28:19):
deal.
Craig, now, it's inspiring what you've shared.
I mean, I'm not sure of as many
listeners still listening.
We talk about them.
Yeah, well, I mean, there's probably no one
listening now, but for the one or two
people that are still here, because they left
it on in the background or whatever.
(28:39):
Now, not many of them probably have properties
in Spain and kind of have the opportunity
or the feel like they have the resources
or like the the mindset to believe that
that's even possible.
So you're living it.
(29:01):
We're listening to it for half an hour.
We're listening to it, and it's and it's
and it's and it's super inspiring.
Christian, what time do you get up in
the morning between three thirty and four a
.m. three thirty and four a.m. How
long have you done that for?
When I was a kid at school, I
(29:23):
was overweight for a large portion of my
childhood, probably.
Well, for as long as I could remember.
And I remember when I was a teenager,
I think about 13 or 14.
I just got tired of being overweight.
You know, typical problems with with being overweight,
being at school, being a teenager, et cetera.
So I decided in all of my wisdom
that the best thing to do was to
(29:45):
get up in the morning and go to
school at like five a.m. and run
laps of the track until I got skinny.
So I think the habit started there.
And I don't know where I got that
from, right?
I've got no idea.
My mom is an incredibly motivated lady.
She's always worked really hard and she was
like a single parent for the large majority
(30:07):
of her life.
So it's like seeing her work really hard,
get up early, go to work, I think
subconsciously must have had an influence on me.
Although if you'd have asked me at the
time, it was just direct action to reinforcement.
I was like, if I run, I'm going
to lose weight.
If I lose weight, I'm going to be
happier, which was certainly the case.
(30:27):
Yeah.
I mean, I tell people I get up
at five and that's shocking to a lot
of people, I think.
Well, these are these are potentially deeply personal
questions.
So you can tell me what time do
you go to bed?
Like how long is your day?
It's actually got it's got much later since
we've been in Spain for the last few
weeks.
If I was single, Ryan, I'd be asleep
at seven o'clock.
(30:47):
I'm definite certain I'd be asleep at seven
p.m. But normally now between eight and
nine.
So like try to get to bed between
eight and nine in the evening.
So usually go up to bed for eight
and I'm fast asleep by nine o'clock.
Like it would be the absolute latest.
There's not there's not there's not eight hours
of sleep now.
I'm on this like premise that that's important.
(31:09):
I don't know the science behind it.
It's usually around about seven.
I mean, when I was younger and I
was like completely mad, I'd be getting like
four or five hours sleep at night, like
I just just worked through all of the
time.
But now like between like seven hours is
absolutely superb.
If I can get a little bit more
than that, it also works fantastically.
(31:30):
But yeah, like seven to eight hours a
night is is ideal.
So what so you've shared with us about
your dog training and doing your seminars and
traveling the world.
And I've met a lot of people.
And this is I don't know this is
based on, but I just get a lot
of people who listen to this would love
(31:52):
to do that.
That would be quite fun, a fun job,
a fun position to be in that you
are sought after across the globe.
And you get to see all of these
places and you get to meet all of
these people.
Yeah, so, so forth.
And then you've got your property portfolio and
you've got your media business, which is creating
(32:16):
websites.
And it's basically in addition, it's tailored specifically
to suit the needs of dog related businesses.
So one of the things that we always
struggled with when we were building was sort
of conventional understanding of what was needed specifically
for a dog trainer.
And I created it to scratch our own
itch, because basically when I started the mentoring
(32:36):
process, we were outsourcing a large portion of
the meat, portion of the media work.
And unfortunately, like time delays and, you know,
not having a solid communication loop with the
external company, not getting things done quickly enough
led to me going, OK, let me on
board my own little team.
And I've got like a little team of
assassins, as I call them, which work for
(32:57):
us, and they do fantastically with all of
the businesses that we work with.
But it's directed at all of the media
needs for dog training or dog related businesses.
So like, are you satisfied with your current
success?
And that's why I'm laughing as I ask
that question.
(33:18):
I was going to say, well, how do
you, if you're never happy, how do you
how do you define success?
For me, I think I think happiness and
success are two different things.
I think success is dependent on the peer
group or the goals that you look for.
And for me, although I haven't got like
a massive social circle by any stretch of
(33:38):
the imagination, the people that I aspire to
be like are far beyond me.
I'd say happiness is consistent reinforcement in the
actions that you follow on a day to
day basis.
And from my perspective, I'm very happy with
the things I do on a day to
day basis.
I like getting up early.
I like doing a big chunk of work
first thing in the morning.
(33:59):
I like going to the gym.
I like training my dogs.
I like seeing my wife.
I like being in the sunshine.
I love traveling internationally, like I'm going to
Australia and Switzerland later on this month to
teach.
And I look forward to those trips, training
the dogs.
I was in Denmark the weekend before last.
I love consulting for businesses and helping people
grow and watching them, you know, make more
(34:21):
money than they thought that they ever could
do as part of the process.
So I think happiness is just reinforcement in
the actions that you follow on a day
by day basis.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, well, it reminds me of what Susan
shares and potentially others.
I couldn't credit the source of this.
And other people have said that well, depression
(34:42):
is a lack of reinforcement.
And then the opposite is happiness is an
abundance of reinforcement.
How do you frame it?
Can you say that again?
So I think happiness is consistent reinforcement in
the actions that you take on a day
to day basis.
So the behaviors you're doing are attached to
reinforcement.
You're reinforced for the things you're doing.
(35:04):
Exactly.
Yeah.
So because every day you've got most people
are stuck in a rhythm of doing things
on a day to day basis, in my
experience, that they have limited associative reinforcement around.
And then that drives the outcome for the
end of the day.
And if like we're very lucky as animal
trainers, I like to think that a good
portion of people that we work with are
very happy with what they do on a
(35:24):
day to day basis.
But if you look at somebody that's unhappy,
it usually ties back to the structure of
the routine that they follow on a day
to day basis.
Well, yeah.
And I'm reinforced for getting up at 5
a.m. and you're reinforced for getting up
at 3.30 a.m. My daughter often
gets me up at three.
One of my daughters anyway, she gets up
at 3.30 a.m. anyway.
But I'm not reinforced for that, Craig.
(35:46):
What do you think?
So so your success, you also said that
you people you aspire to be like are
far beyond you.
Did you say that?
Is that how you phrase that?
What do you mean by that?
I mean, a large portion of, you know,
when people say like you need to get
a mentor or you need to have somebody
to look up to.
I very much had that in John and
(36:07):
Mike when I was younger.
And I love them both for it.
And like from a business perspective, the majority
of inspiration or motivation that I've got has
been from listening to podcasts or listening to
people that have achieved great heights.
The small group that I've got are all
way above me in sort of business development,
which is great, as you're always looking to
(36:30):
aspire to be like those people.
So I think again, I think like success
and happiness, I think success is subjective, isn't
it, depending on the on the person?
Because, you know, there's lots of people that
have a really, really lovely family, are super
happy, and they that they've achieved ultimate success.
And my version of success, I guess, in
their version of success is two completely different
(36:52):
things.
I think that I just think that sometimes
like the word successful is so super objective,
isn't it?
It depends on where you're at in life
and what you want to what you want
to achieve.
Is there a different word that resonates more
with you?
Good question.
I just think it's all about happiness, right?
To be honest with you, that sounds super
soppy of me.
No, that's known.
(37:13):
I just think it's a love that answer.
Yeah, I think I think it's about being
happy.
I think we've got a finite amount of
time on this earth.
But most of us, if we're lucky, are
going to make it to 85 or 90,
which means I'm nearly halfway through my adult
life.
And I don't want to spend the days
doing things.
I worked in a joining shop when I
was young.
I hated it, right?
(37:33):
I hated it so much.
Like it was like the worst thing ever.
And it's like all I wanted to do
was to train dogs all of the time.
And I remember like having this morning where
I sat in my van before going into
work and I was working really hard to
try to change.
And this is a well, I guess it's
it's all related.
So I'll tell like I sat in my
van in the morning.
(37:53):
I was in my early 20s, like mid
mid to early 20s.
And I remember thinking, but I just want
this to change like whatever I need to
do to get this to change.
And at that weekend or the Thursday, I
think it was I was delivering a seminar
for biting dogs and I got married when
I was really young.
And I got a message whilst I was
(38:14):
doing the seminar.
And my wife said at the time, like,
I can't do this anymore.
I'm off.
I'm leaving.
I'm not coming back.
And I remember having like this obviously like
immediate upset and being like, oh, God, like,
what have I done?
And then, you know, after some conversation back
and forth, like I just had this moment
of like, I'm obviously not making this person
happy.
(38:35):
Without this relationship, maybe this is what I'm
being given to do the things I wanted
in my life improved like tenfold from that
point moving forward because I was able to,
you know, work and train dogs full time.
And I tried to never, ever, ever lose
the the gratitude for being able to do
(38:56):
what I do every day.
It's like it's it's so fortunate.
There's so many people that would kill to
do what I get to do.
And it's like I never, ever lose the
gratitude for it, because I think it's it's
it's the things that you do on a
day by day basis that make you happy.
You know, does that make sense?
It does.
And it potentially answers my next question.
And I was going to phrase it something
(39:17):
along the line of what do you think
is one of the biggest things that has
led to your success?
But you your answer before wouldn't make that
question need to be reframed.
So I came up with.
So what do you think has been the
biggest thing that has led to you being
able to craft a life that has led
to an abundance of happiness?
But you said something I think is really
(39:38):
pivotal there, and that is to try not
to lose gratitude for what you're doing every
day.
And I know for me, I wasn't super
happy when I was young.
And in my head, my self talk wasn't
very empowering.
It was a bit self degrading.
And I listened to a lot of books.
I listened to a lot.
(39:58):
I read a lot.
I listened to Anthony Robbins.
And one thing he told me that he
said at the time was to walk every
day and spend 15 concentrated moments thinking about
gratitude and the things you're grateful for.
And that changed my life.
And it was probably allowed me to connect
with happiness.
I think I don't know why, but that
(40:20):
stuck out to me.
How do you then, if you try not
to lose gratitude for doing what you do
every day, do you have intentional strategies that
you employ to allow you to stay connected
to that gratitude?
Yeah, 100 percent.
So for me, I also think that gratitude
has a good amount to do with being
uncomfortable as well, which sounds really counterproductive.
(40:42):
But I also like to get uncomfortable multiple
times per week.
Before we did this podcast early this morning,
Ryan, once I finished my work block, I
run up the mountain that we've got outside
of my house.
I genuinely thought I was going to have
a like a heart attack or something.
It was so hard to run up because
it's so steep and the altitude so high.
And I think that having moments whereas you're
(41:04):
able to completely remove yourself from what you
do on a day to day basis, concentrate
on the task within you that you're doing,
the task in front of you gives you
like a real exceptional amount of clarity, because
it's if the task is really hard and
it makes you uncomfortable, you can't really focus
on anything else.
You have to focus on the thing and
getting it done.
(41:25):
And I think that acts as like a
form of meditation, which then post that allows
you to reflect.
So I finished the run, for example, and
I was like overview of my schedule.
And I was like, I'm excited for the
podcast with Ryan this morning.
And then I've got consult calls with Jess
and Chris and all of these other people
that I'm talking to today.
And then I'm going to go later on
this evening, agility training with my wife because
(41:47):
she's prepping for a competition that she's doing.
So it's just like I think that that
period each day of active reset, which involves
either a little bit of being uncomfortable or
doing something that you can completely commit to
that can be walking.
If you don't want to get out and
go out in the cold, that certainly would
be the case for me in the UK.
It can be going to the gym.
(42:08):
I can be going for a jog.
It can be meditate and it can be
whatever you like.
But I think it's necessary for everybody to
have some type of an active reset every
day so that it just gives you a
sense of reality.
Otherwise, you just end up rolling with the
punches all day long.
And it's like, I've got to get up
and I've got to be at this appointment.
And, you know, this client's being a bit
of a pain in the bum.
And, oh, God, I don't know if I've
(42:28):
done that good a job with this dog.
And what am I going to do with
this here and how about that?
And I don't think they give themselves or
a majority of people give themselves any time
for active reflection.
And I think if you can just take
50, it took me 20 minutes to run
up there and back this morning because it's
not a gym day.
I'd usually go to the gym, but it's
a rest day.
And like after the 20 minutes, like it's
it's such an active reset.
(42:48):
Does that make sense?
It does.
And do you mean because because initially I
hadn't connected physical discomfort, was it was it
was the hill run physically uncomfortable?
It was horrible, right?
Like I didn't enjoy it, but I thought
when I got to the top of it,
it was going to be a problem.
(43:10):
Am I wrong?
Well, because you're going to pass out and
then no one will find you or something.
I thought, yes, I was I was struggling
to breathe.
But at that time, I couldn't focus on
anything else.
But keeping one foot going in front of
the other and breathing to make sure that
I didn't have some type of a an
asthma attack or something.
You know, I remember when I was working
(43:31):
at Wellington Zoo and they had conservation leave
so you could get paid to go do
some conservation project.
So I went into the mountains here in
New Zealand with the Kia Conservation Trust, Kias
are mountain parrots that live in New Zealand,
and we track them.
And I climbed the biggest mountain I've ever
climbed.
(43:51):
But it was hard and I wasn't super
fit.
And I just remember thinking one foot in
front of the other, one foot in front
of the other, because because it was so
hard by the end of that, getting to
the top of that hill.
And the Kia conservation guys were at the
top filming me as I came up laughing
at me, throwing things at me like they're
great guys.
And we had a lot of fun.
(44:11):
But that's so vivid, that memory of just
the hardness in a one foot.
And so I completely understand, I think, because
because that was a long time ago and
because it's so vivid in my mind and
because you literally see one foot in front
of the other.
Yeah, I think it's for me, it's just
a moment or a period of time where
(44:33):
you do something that is ultimately that is
for you, that is challenging enough that you
can't think about anything else.
Because I think that that acts as a
form of meditation and allows you to then
reflect on the things post that you're really
happy with.
Because, you know, if somebody is upset, down,
not having a good day, you know, I'm
very, very fortunate to work with tons and
(44:54):
tons of people developing businesses.
And I work with people that have that
type of thing all of the time.
It's no good me saying to somebody that's
really upset about something.
You just need to think how lucky you
are to be doing this, because it's so
counterproductive to say to them when they're having
this really bad time.
Well, you should be so grateful you get
to train dogs every day because it doesn't
work like that.
So what I'll say to them is always
(45:14):
like, OK, let's think about this.
Let's get out.
Go for a walk.
Go for a jog with the dogs.
Go for a bike ride.
Go for a swim.
What what part of movement do you find
reinforcing?
And they're like, well, I don't really like
this bit of I'll go for a bike
ride.
And they go out for a bike ride
as part of the bike ride.
They inevitably like get their body moving a
little bit more.
So they can't really focus on much else
(45:36):
but riding because that's and then they get
back.
And I think it just gives you a
functional reset.
So it's sort of I guess it turns
the question on its head a little bit
with regards to what are the processes that
you use to stay actively grateful.
I think you need a reset process or
to do something that allows you to reset
your mind to stay grateful, because I think
it's not, you know, if you speak to
(45:56):
somebody that's got, you know, like a job
that they're not fond of and they've got
like a lovely wife and kids at home
and you tell them to be grateful for
their wife and kids and they're, you know,
doing something that they absolutely despise.
There's such a disconnect between those two things,
because, yeah, they love their wife and kids,
but it doesn't make the things that they're
doing at that time any less undesirable.
(46:19):
And I think having the reset allows you
to really reflect on the things that you're
grateful for.
But also it gives you clarity to start
to think about changing the things that you're
not happy with.
And looking at the time, one other thing
I really want to ask you, but just
before we jump off this topic, do you
only mean physically uncomfortable or do you also
mean mentally uncomfortable?
(46:40):
Mentally uncomfortable.
Like yesterday morning, I'm learning Spanish and I
did a Spanish lesson yesterday morning.
And for me, physicality or moving is really
important.
That is my active reset.
But after that Spanish lesson, right.
And, you know, taking into account that I,
you know, do high level problem solving all
day long is a new problem to solve.
It's not animal behavior analysis.
(47:02):
It's not business strategy development.
It's learning a language like I'm back at
school, which is something I find really challenging.
And again, I wasn't able to focus on
anything at all.
I didn't look at a single notification.
All I focused on was the lady and
the group of people and answering the questions
and trying to compute all of the information.
So that, again, gives me another feeling of
(47:24):
complete active reset.
It can be reading a book, listening to
a podcast, but you've got to have something
to remove your mind from what's in front
of you.
Otherwise, you end up very reactive, so to
speak, to the circumstances that you're dealt, and
I think that impedes your ability to become
truly grateful.
Well, I really appreciate you sharing all of
it.
Thank you very much.
(47:44):
And the one thing I wanted to ask
before we jumped off this episode, we're going
to talk about play in part to everyone.
But in a short time, you know, I've
been connected, Craig, and there's conversations we've had
and what I've read about you online and
what I've listened to on other people's podcast
shows is I get.
And you've said it here today.
And so the listeners of this episode have
(48:05):
heard the importance of the mentors in your
life.
And is it is it full circle now
that you've come back to offering that to
others now?
Can you speak to the importance of mentorship?
Yeah, for sure.
I mean, certainly for me, like John and
Mike specifically are two of the people that
(48:27):
I love to death, like they've been so
irreplaceable in my life.
And if you'd have asked me, Ryan, 15
years ago, 10 years ago, 12 years ago,
if I was going to facilitate a business
mentoring role amongst dog trainers, I just said,
all I want to do is train dogs.
And, you know, still to this time, I
train dogs in my free time all of
(48:48):
the time because it's what I find reinforcing.
But there's something hugely reinforcing about trying to
help people get on their way when they're
getting started out or they're in the middle
of a journey and they don't know quite
what to do, because I've been very fortunate.
Well, I'm super, super lucky to have all
of the experience that I have, you know,
in the multitude of aspects of business development
and dog training or the dog world specifically.
(49:11):
And it's just it's really fun, Brian, you
know, watching people because it's never easy, you
know, building a dog training business, a behavior
consultancy business, a grooming business, etc.
etc.
It always comes with its own set of
challenges.
But it's really reinforcing for me being able
to help those people work through the bumps
and make the trajectory of point A to
(49:33):
point B much easier for them and having
somebody to go.
Oh, you know, I'm struggling with this.
What would you do?
And I go, oh, well, you know, there's
five different ways to do that.
This is the way that I would do
it.
But there's also these options as well.
What one sounds best to you?
And I go, oh, I'll do it the
way that you do it.
And I say, you sure?
Because, you know, these other options are legit
as well.
But that's definitely what I would do.
And I go, OK, perfect.
(49:53):
So it's just it saves people so much
time and it allows you to help them,
you know, project and and achieve what they're
capable of in training dogs and working with
animals rather than having to stress about all
of the other parts that go into building
a business.
I do find it really reinforcing.
It's something that I really enjoy.
Like it's been a it's another chapter to
(50:14):
the book that I didn't predict or set
out to do actively.
But as with all of the things that
I've done through the course of sort of
my animal training career, there are they've always
been things that have been presented to me
and that there's been an opening.
And I've sort of capitalized on the opening
and thought, you know, that works really well.
Why don't I try and do a little
bit more of that?
And it's always ended up working out.
(50:35):
So I've been so super fortunate around, for
sure.
But yes, it's it's so reinforcing.
Well, I've got a million questions about we've
been going for a solid hour, I think
nearly by the time we add the intros
and outros and everything.
Craig, this episode will be roughly an hour
long.
So unfortunately, I'm going to have to not
ask all of the million questions I have
(50:57):
for you, but rather share gratitude to you
for sharing what we love to call your
behavioral odyssey with us.
We love hearing about people's journey.
So thank you very much for sharing yours
with us, Craig.
Just before we do officially wrap up, though,
part one of this episode, could you share
with everyone listening where they can go to
learn more about you, the services you offer,
(51:18):
the mentoring you were just talking about and
how they can get in touch?
Instagram is the easiest place to drop us
a message.
So Craig Ogilvy Dogs on Instagram.
The website is OgilvyDogs.com.
But if you want to chat or have
a conversation, just fire us a message over
on Instagram.
I'm also on TikTok and Facebook, all of
the same handles.
But if you need anything, Instagram is my
(51:38):
most used platform to drop us a message.
Fantastic.
And we will, of course, link to all
of that in the show notes as well.
If that's easier for you, the listener.
Craig, this has been so much fun.
So from myself and on behalf of everyone
listening, we really appreciate you taking the time
to come and hang out with us.
Thank you so much.
Thank you so much for having me, Ryan.
(52:00):
And thank you so much for listening as
well.
This is your host, Ryan Cartlidge, signing off
from this episode of the Animal Training Academy
podcast show.
We hope today's conversation inspired you and equipped
you with new tools for your trainer's toolbox.
Remember, every challenge in training is an opportunity
(52:22):
to learn and sharpen your animal training geekery.
Embrace the rough patches, learn from them and
keep improving.
And don't forget the path to growing your
skills and expanding your knowledge continues beyond this
episode.
Visit www.atamember.com to join our supportive
(52:46):
membership, where you will find a community of
trainers just like you.
Together, we're making a huge positive difference in
the lives of animal and human learners worldwide.
Until next time, keep honing your skills.
Stay awesome.
And remember, every interaction with an animal or
(53:08):
human learner is your opportunity to create ripples.
We're here cheering you on every step of
the way.
See you at the next episode.
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