Exploring 24/7 Animal Welfare with Sabrina Brando [Episode 246]

In this episode of the Animal Training Academy Podcast, Ryan Cartlidge welcomes back Sabrina Brando, a psychologist and the Director of AnimalConcepts, for an engaging discussion on the intersection of animal welfare, human well-being, and environmental care. Sabrina brings decades of experience from her work in zoos, aquariums, sanctuaries, and academic settings worldwide. In this episode, Sabrina shares five key areas where animal training principles are integral to her work, covering a broad spectrum of species and settings, from zoos to city farms.

Listeners will gain insights into her 24/7 Across Lifespan approach, which emphasizes creating environments that enable animals to be agents of their own lives, as well as her innovative strategies for enhancing animal welfare through training, enrichment, and cooperative care. 

What You’ll Discover in This Episode:

• The importance of viewing animal care from a 24/7 perspective across the animal’s lifespan.
• How Sabrina uses animal training principles to enhance animal welfare in zoos, shelters, and other settings.
• Insights into Sabrina’s approach to environmental enrichment and welfare management.
• Strategies for supporting both animal and human well-being in professional care settings.

Why This Episode is a Must-Listen:

Sabrina’s deep understanding of the human-animal connection and her expertise in welfare, training, and environmental management offer invaluable lessons for animal professionals. Whether you’re involved in animal care, welfare research, or organizational leadership, this episode is packed with practical, forward-thinking insights that will inspire you to think more holistically about the care and well-being of animals.

Links

• https://www.linkedin.com/in/sabrinabrando/
• https://www.linkedin.com/company/animalconcepts/about/?viewAsMember=true
• https://www.animalconcepts.eu/
• https://www.instagram.com/animalconcepts.eu/
• https://www.facebook.com/SabrinaBrandoAC
• https://www.facebook.com/AnimalConceptsGlobal

Episode Transcript

(00:03):
Welcome to the Animal Training Academy podcast show.
I'm your host, Ryan Carledge, and I'm passionate
about helping you master your animal training skills
using the most positive and least intrusive approaches.
Here at ATA, we understand that navigating the
vast challenges you encounter in training requires a

(00:27):
comprehensive base of knowledge and experience.
It's common to face obstacles and rough patches
on your journey that can leave you feeling
overwhelmed and stressed.
Therefore, since 2015, we've been on a mission
to empower animal training geeks worldwide.
We've aided thousands in developing their skills, expanding

(00:51):
their knowledge, boosting their confidence, and maximizing their
positive impact on all the animal and human
learners they work with.
We are excited to do the same for
you.
Simply visit www.atamember.com, join our vibrant

(01:12):
community, and geek out with us.
And of course, in the meantime, enjoy this
free podcast episode as we explore new ways
to help you supercharge your training skills, grow
your knowledge, and build your confidence so that
you can craft a life that positively impacts

(01:32):
every learner you encounter.
We will start today's episode where we will
be talking to one Sabrina Brando, or I
should say welcoming back to the podcast show,
Sabrina Brando.
Sabrina is a psychologist interested in the connection

(01:53):
between humans, other animals, and the natural world.
She is the Director of Animal Concepts and
a PhD researcher at the University of Stirling
in Scotland.
Her PhD project focuses on individual team leadership
and organizational aspects of human well-being in
zoos and aquariums, and she will have a

(02:14):
related book forthcoming in 2027.
Sabrina launched Animal Concepts, a signature online membership
and community in 2020, which is packed with
tools and resources and combines the science and
practice of animal, human, and planetary well-being
so people can feel supported and feel well
while doing good.

(02:35):
With a profound commitment to well-being for
all, Sabrina's influence spans universities, zoos, aquariums, shelters,
and sanctuaries worldwide.
She brings a wealth of expertise in animal
welfare topics such as training, behavior, environmental enrichment,
and a human-animal relationship.
Sabrina's impact resonates through her captivating keynote addresses,

(02:56):
workshops, and guest lectures at institutions online and
in person globally.
She contributes to academic journals and books, serves
on advisory committees, and actively leads and special
collaborates on animal and human well-being research
projects.
She is a co-editor of the book
Optimal Well-Being for Aging Wild Animals and
is currently working on two other books, including

(03:17):
one focusing on animal training.
So without further ado, it's my very great
pleasure to welcome Sabrina, as I said earlier,
back to the show today, who's patiently waiting
by in Spain.
Sabrina, thank you so much for taking the
time to come and hang out with us
here at Animal Training Academy.
Absolutely.
Thanks so much for having me back.

(03:37):
It's delighting.
So really looking forward to this podcast and
connecting with your audience again and with you,
of course.
And let's see if your memory is better
than mine.
When was the first episode we recorded for
this show?
I'm thinking, I'll have to look back.
I'm not even going to have a guess.
2021?
Something like that.
But you can find that episode back.

(03:59):
And a lot has happened since then.
So before we dive into the main topic
of today's episode, Sabrina, which for you to
listen, it's going to be five key areas
where animal training principles are integral to Sabrina's
work of exotics.
I'd like our audience to get a clearer
picture of the unique, I think that's a

(04:20):
pretty accurate way to describe what you do,
unique and impactful work you do in zoos
around the world.
Because your role, I say that because your
role encompasses so much from animal behavior and
welfare to environmental enrichment and compassion awareness.
Could you perhaps share with the listeners an
overview and talk as much or as little

(04:42):
as you want when I say share an
overview of the services you offer to zoos
and describe.
And again, don't know if this is something
that you can do, but what a typical
day or project might involve of you if
such a thing exists.
I thought to get started, understanding the breadth
of your work will help our listeners appreciate
the nuances and importance of the topics we're

(05:04):
about to explore.
Yes.
So maybe sort of in a nutshell, maybe
a slightly bigger nut, but the, so I
work as a keeper for many years.
So as an animal care professional, that's how
I started over 33 years ago.
And so working directly with animals and always

(05:26):
being interested, of course, in their well-being
and how can I support that.
I ended up studying psychology and looking at
how can I not only, of course, through
the lens of ethology and other lenses, but
also thinking about the psychological well-being and
the emotions of animals and having them have

(05:46):
good well-being most of the time.
And that, of course, spans this sort of
holistic idea on animals, but also our connection
to them and our relationship that we build
with them or that we can build with
them, whether it's through positive reinforcement or, you
know, other ways of building connections and bonds
with animals.
And that led me to doing a master's

(06:09):
in animal studies because I became more and
more interested in, so what, who are these
other animals or who is this other individual
and how do I show up for that
individual in the best way?
But also what does it mean for us
to be connected to other animals or to
other things that people often feel are important
to them when they go into working with

(06:30):
zoos and aquariums, which is conservation, conservation of
species and wild places.
And that sort of rolled into me being
interested in connecting with other facilities and people
started asking like, hey, could you come over
here and talk to us about animal welfare
or help us with training and enrichment and

(06:52):
so on?
And that sort of, you know, resulted in
2004 starting my own company, Animal Concepts.
And we work with zoos and aquariums, but
we also work with universities.
So we teach at universities.
So we supervise students.
We also help for organizations that don't have
researchers on their staff.

(07:14):
We help them set up projects or train
people in doing research themselves or behavioral observations.
And then we help analyze the data and
help them publish because, of course, it's important
to write out your experiences.
That could be in a blog or it
could be in a vlog or any way
of sort of disseminating what you're doing and
how has that helped animals or people.

(07:35):
But it's, of course, also important to do
that in a systematic or in a structured
way and then hopefully peer review publishing.
So we help organizations with that.
And then one of the other services we
have is sort of career coaching or academic
coaching for people that either want to get
into the field or they are already in

(07:56):
the field and they might want to add
to their skill level.
And so we do those sorts of sessions
with people as well.
And so we have clients also in shelters,
in sanctuaries, wildlife.
We sometimes write policy and work with governments
and other agencies.
So we have quite a variety of different
services and different skill sets.

(08:18):
We also have an extended team, people with
a background in conservation and welfare or psychology
or even sustainability and social entrepreneurship.
So we try to really tie that together
and understand what is it that we can
do.
And if we think we can't do it,
then we'll reach out to other people in

(08:38):
the field that have certain expertise.
So we try to be pretty clear about
our wheelhouse.
And so the interest ultimately also for me
is to really connect all the different dots,
because ultimately we are interconnected.
Even though I'm in Spain and you're in
New Zealand, we're not just connected through technology,
but we are connected in why we do

(08:59):
what we do or why it is important
to care for other animals or why it
is important to care for ourselves and care
for each other and help each other.
And whether that is in your local community
or across the world.
And all those things together is also caring
about where you live or the natural world
around you or the urban species or the

(09:22):
wild species and in general, the planet that
we share with everyone.
So we are very interested in this concept
of interbeing.
And that's really what animal concepts is about.
And in my PhD today, I look specifically
at who are all these people in these
jobs.
Obviously, I can't talk to all the people,

(09:43):
but I was able to talk to a
lot of wonderful people in interviews, but also
in surveys to try and understand why do
we do what we do.
And then also importantly, because of course, there's
no amount of self-care, you can throw
it yourself if, for example, your team or
leadership or the organization isn't well.
And if we're well, then we don't only

(10:05):
feel good and connected to our purpose, but
we also are going to be able to
do better care for animals and species and
wild places.
So it's just sort of going around and
connecting all the circle.
So that's sort of in a nutshell of
where I've been and what I've been doing
over the last years.

(10:27):
And I'm just curious, because well, firstly, actually,
I nearly missed an opportunity, because if animal
concepts started in 2004, that means that you
celebrated a birthday last year.
We did.
Yeah, we celebrated 20 years.

(10:49):
And it was pretty amazing.
Yeah.
So we had, you know, of course, good.
I think I would have liked to do
a little bit more.
But actually, for the last three years, I
haven't had a house, like a fixed home.
So I put all my stuff in storage
for three years.
And so a lot of like sort of
the old pictures that I wanted to dig

(11:10):
up and sort of tell stories around animal
concepts.
I couldn't really do that because I didn't
have access to the materials.
But for the last three months, I've actually
unpacked everything and moved into this new home.
And so I'm actually sort of planning to
do that retroactively this year is to sort
of celebrate a little bit more about, you

(11:32):
know, with old pictures and stories from obviously
animal concepts, but also people that have attended.
We've organized over 500 events all over the
world over the last 20 years, all kinds
of different workshops on training and enrichment and
the emotional lives of animals and so on.
So yeah, the celebration for this year is

(11:54):
going to sort of continue with some of
that.
And so thanks for that.
Highlighting that because it is a big milestone,
for sure.
And to your second question as what sort
of does a day in my life look
like?
There is no such thing as the same
day almost, even though to, you know, in

(12:17):
this moment in my life, I'm focusing on
submitting my PhD at the end of this
year.
And this is actually the first time I'm
sort of saying it out loud to such
a wide audience, but I have plans that
I will do this.
And so my week is very structured right
now.
So Monday and Fridays I work for Animal

(12:38):
Concepts and that can be working with our
clients online or coaching sessions or analyzing research
or writing content for our platforms and connecting
with people and with the external team.
And then Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday is just
focusing on getting my PhD.

(12:59):
You know, I'm in the analysis and writing
up phase.
So right now, that's sort of what it
looks like.
But it could also be next week I'm
traveling to the Netherlands and going to see
some family, but I'm also going to do
some work with some schools, some colleges that
teach animal care and behavior.
So I would be on location at these

(13:20):
schools and I would be teaching and interacting
and doing lots of workshops and problem based
or case based solving and with the students.
And I'm going to work together with a
city farm because we focus pretty much on
animals everywhere.
So, of course, there's a lot of animals
in city farms and their well-being, of

(13:40):
course, matters too.
So we have a workshop at a city
farm with all kinds of people who are
working in the well-being and the caring
for animals, you know, mostly domesticated.
And so that would be then a whole
day of workshops and specifically focusing on enriching
and welfare.
So, yeah, my days could be all kinds
of different ones.

(14:01):
Depends a little bit also who hires us.
So sometimes we're hired to do like an
audit.
So we really look at all the processes
and procedures and all the documentation.
And sometimes we will be doing behavioral studies
and then we do the analysis.
So my days can be extremely varied, but
now they're super structured because otherwise, obviously, I

(14:24):
won't get my PhD submitted.
So, yeah.
Well, I know that we have a topic
for this episode because I just have a
million questions to ask you about the things
that you've just said, but I'm not going
to.
Let's transition to the main question.
I'm excited to talk about it.

(14:44):
So, Sabrina, obviously, you do a lot as
a learner, as a listener has just learned
about, and they can appreciate that the vital
role animal training, because our listeners are predominantly
animal trainers.
So with everything you've just said, they can
appreciate the vital role that animal training principles

(15:05):
would play in places like zoos, obviously, and
shelters and city farms.
With this background in mind, I'm curious with
that large umbrella of ways that you can
connect with and touch base with organizations and
help organizations.
I'm curious to dive into this specific aspect

(15:28):
of your expertise, animal training.
Can you highlight for us five key areas
where animal training principles are integral to your
work?
And we can talk about shelters and city
farms and stuff.
Totally cool.
I had written here to talk about work
in zoos, but let's talk about all of
the animals.
I'm sure our listeners who are eager to
broaden their knowledge and skills in animal training

(15:49):
will find your experience and insights in these
areas super valuable.
So can you share with us your five
key areas where animal training principles are integral
to your work?
Yes.
So when you asked me that question, obviously,
I thought about it.
And sort of, you know, the first thing,

(16:11):
obviously, sort of your, at least my mind
sort of flew to is like, how, like,
what are the things that animals living in
human care, whether they are in a zoo
or a shelter or anywhere else or at
your home, what would benefit them, right?
And that is sort of the voluntary care,
their daily care or the cooperative care that

(16:32):
a lot of people talk about today.
So, but I was, I was also thinking,
so I'm going to sort of zoom out
right now and tell you all the five
and sort of how they link for me.
And then we can address each of them
separately.
As some of you may know, for the
last 15 years, I've been on this soapbox

(16:54):
about the importance of looking at an animal's
life from a 24-7 perspective.
So what is their life?
Who is this individual?
Who are you?
And where do you live?
So are you at a zoo?
Are you in a shelter?
Are you in a research facility?
Where are you?
Right, because of you, obviously, the role that
we have given you, whether you're a companion

(17:15):
animal or an ambassador animal or research animal,
all those are going to affect the life
that you're going to live.
So what is your life like?
Where are you?
And then really thinking about, okay, so what,
when I think about animal training and sort
of taking it broader, learning principles in general,

(17:36):
and behavior, then what, what do I need
to do?
Whether it's setting up the environment, creating good
environments.
So I talk a lot about being habitat
managers or environmental managers, and then all the
other things.
So you can be the agent of your
own life as much as possible.
So you're less dependent on the human, your

(17:58):
human, the human, whatever is your preference.
With regards to eating, socializing, you know, staying
healthy, fit, and all those other things, play,
sleep, whatever it is that you want to
do.
So certainly there's birds I viewed for me
24-7 is incredibly important.

(18:19):
And animal training or learning principles play a
role in that.
So that's one topic to me.
The other one is, of course, daily, the
daily care or management of animals, whether they
are in zoos.
So them being able to shift and go
places.
But of course, hopefully we have as much
as possible open access.
So animals can actually make those choices themselves.

(18:41):
But my ability to ask them, can you
please come in?
Can you please go out?
Can you sit on a scale?
Right.
Can you open your mouth?
Whatever else, those sorts of things to make
sure.
And then depending again, right, 24-7 across
lifespan is really about what is it that
you need when you're like a young animal?
Or what are maybe the training needs that
you're going to need when you're very old?

(19:01):
And our book on optimal well-being for
aging animals has a whole chapter on training
with regards to elderly animals, because now maybe
because of your sensory changes in your sensory
systems or how you move, right, you might
need other things.
So second sort of aspect to me is

(19:22):
really thinking about the individual and their life
stages and what is it that they need
on a daily, weekly, monthly, whatever relevant basis.
And then what I was thinking about was
what have animals learned in general?
And so this sort of this, again, this
broader perspective.
So sometimes when people say, can you come

(19:44):
and teach us about animal training or how
I go from not having a behavior to
having a completed behavior or to be able
to maintain behaviors or maybe change something because
of age or pregnancy or something else.
But for me, what I do when I
arrive at a facility is to actually do
nothing for the first day or two and

(20:05):
just observe.
So what, because what I want to know
is what have animals already learned?
So what behaviors are they doing?
When are they doing them?
How are they doing them in response to
whatever is around them, whether it's the feeding
routines, the cleaning routines, the general human animal
reactions or interactions, whether they are direct or

(20:29):
indirect.
So I'm really interested to sort of map
out an inventory.
So I would do that together with the
sort of 24-7 approach.
I want to first sort of get a
good idea of what have animals already learned
from the way that we interact with them?
Because, you know, you get a lot of
things happen and a lot of behaviors are

(20:50):
learned, but not necessarily because we wanted to
or because we meant to, but because of
many other reasons.
And some of them are going to be
positive and they're going to be good and
they're going to be fine for the animals.
But there's also a lot of things that
animals have learned that are not necessarily good
for their well-being.
So whether it's feeding routines, always being in

(21:12):
the same location or at the same time
can often result in a negative anticipatory behaviors
or stereotypes and so on and so on.
So I'm very interested in that sort of
third aspect, and these are not necessarily in
any particular order, but to get a really
good feel for the lay of the land
of like, what is going on here, right?

(21:34):
Because there's a lot of learning and training.
And then sometimes when people say, oh, I
don't like animal training and I'm like, well,
then it's going to be impossible for you
to work with animals, right?
Because whether you want it or not, learning
happens all the time or information is being
updated all the time.
And so I will look at how people
work.
And of course, this comes from a place

(21:56):
of, right, I talk about, and this comes
from a friend of mine who is an
animal ethicist, and he talks about the flashlight
and the hammer.
And so we can bring a hammer and
that's usually, I mean, those are good for
like putting a nail in the wall, but,
or maybe something else, but in general, they're
not very good for, you know, connecting and

(22:19):
trying to find out how can we make
things better, right?
So he talks about the flashlight and the
flashlight is really shining a light on what
is, everything is information.
So this, those first moments for me is,
is to work with people and understand where
they come from, education, all those sorts of
things.
What do they know and what do we

(22:39):
see with the animals?
And that's, I think, incredibly important because are
they, you know, happy walking up to, you
know, the care staff or are they running
to the back and huddling in the corner?
No.
So what have animals learned or what have
we trained, whether we liked it or not?
So that's a very important aspect.
So as you can already gather, I tend

(23:01):
to set them always in this broader sort
of umbrella of wellbeing and training is, and
learning is of course part of that.
Then the other thing, which I've had an
interest in from day one, because that's literally
how my first job started was research.
And we have had five research, four, four

(23:23):
research training seminars to date.
And every so many years we organize them.
So specifically training animals for research.
And that's something I love doing because it
allows us to obviously get the animal to
participate in all kinds of different sessions, whether
it is physiology, hearing, cognition, any sorts of

(23:46):
things.
Like how do they perceive the world?
And that of course, or what matters to
them, what is more important to them, which
can then feed into obviously their care, but
also can have really important outcomes for wild
animals in the wild or for that very
animal, any animal in the wild.
So research training is something that I'm very

(24:07):
passionate about.
And then last but not least, the fifth
one for me, which is sometimes part of
the work that we do is conservation related
work.
So learning, training with regards to things that
animals need to know when they, for example,
being released or reintroduced.
So what are the things that animals need

(24:31):
to know or need to be able to
do or stay away from?
Because there's also a lot of aversion training,
sometimes necessary, whether it's to humans or to
certain.
So that's not work that I did, but
that, for example, people that worked with the
reintroduction of in human care bred Californian condors,

(24:52):
when they released them again, you know, they
do like a poll or electric poll aversion
training because they don't want them landing on
them because that's not good for their wellbeing.
So I'm very interested in these aspects.
So 24 seven across lifespan in general, what
animals have learned or what we have trained
without knowing, or maybe we know it and

(25:14):
we don't necessarily act on it.
The daily care of animals, research and conservation.
I think the answer to this question is
kind of two parts to it, but the
answer might seem obvious as I ask it
to you, the listener and to you Sabrina,
but I want to hear it in your

(25:36):
words.
I think it's going to be valuable to
the listeners to have you flesh out a
little bit.
Again, I think it's kind of obvious when
we say 24 seven, what does that mean?
But to flesh that out in your words,
because as you said, again, in your words,
you've been on a soapbox much to the
benefit of all of us to learn about

(25:58):
and to learn about it, but also just
to be reminded of it and to benefit
from your perception of it.
So now I'm asking you to tell us
what it is.

(26:19):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I think, you know, I've started to
call it a soapbox because it's literally in
every conversation that I have when it comes
to animals, it's constantly this, this, and, and
also what is funny is like some people,
because I talk about it and I have
talked about it for so many years, they're
like, not again, this topic, I know I

(26:41):
have had eye rolls even, and it's funny,
but I'm like, I will talk on this
topic.
Until we nail it.
So what is this topic about 24 seven
across lifespan?
And it's not new in that sense, because
obviously, you know, when you look at books
already published on, you know, thinking about the

(27:03):
animal's life, whether it was Heidegger, or whether
it is, you know, other books, or it's
not necessarily a new concept, we have just
put it into a sort of framework that
allows us to talk about it.
And what it is about is really thinking
about what is an animal's life like across
the whole of the day, and across its

(27:24):
life.
So his or her life.
And so it means thinking about so if
you're working in a zoo, I will have
people pull out their, their phone, or if
you have a calculator today, it's like a
miracle.
But if you know, I asked you to
punch in, for example, 16 times 365, divided

(27:46):
by 24.
And then I will ask people what number
they get.
And what you get is 243.
And that actually is the time, the days
that you are actually not at the zoo,
because you're only at the zoo eight hours
a day.
Or at your shelter, or at your wildlife

(28:08):
park, or at wherever.
And even, you know, we because of this
24 seven concept, we talk at horse conferences
and dog conferences, right.
So and for the for your dog at
home, or your cat at home, or your
guinea pig at home, or whatever, it's going
to look slightly different.
But still, you know, you might be out
working.
That's why we have so many wonderful people

(28:28):
with dogs have dog walkers, they come to
their home and you know, have their dog
go out because they are not at home,
right.
And then when you're at home, you're also
going to be, you're going to be asleep.
And then you have all the other things
to do.
Whether it's, you know, being with your family,
going for sports, cleaning, prepping, whatever else not.

(28:50):
So the actual time and that's the same
in the zoo, when you are at the
zoo.
And based on my experience, I in our
paper, we have this little clock and it's
sort of divides up on what will I
be doing, I'll be preparing food, I'll be
in a meeting, I'll be fixing things, I'll
be talking to the public, I'll be doing
so many other things.
But to actually work with the animals, like

(29:12):
I in my career, I have worked with
certain species, it would literally be, I'll come
to your habitat, I switch on the light,
I put down your food, and then I
leave and then I don't come back until
the end of the day where I do
the reverse.
I put down food and I switch off
the light.
So and which means that some animals got

(29:32):
only five minutes of my time at the
most.
But obviously, they're not there just five minutes,
I just happen to be in their lives
for five minutes.
But and what I feel is important is
that even if you're not directly with animals,
with your companion animal or with the animal
at the zoo or anywhere else, we have
to keep in mind that whether I am

(29:54):
with them or I'm not with them, I
am with them.
Because you are in general the one who
they are waiting for, right?
Whether it's for enrichment, for training, for stuff
to happen in their environment that is enriching
to them.
All those sorts of things are highly dependent
on the human.

(30:15):
And this is why whether if you, for
example, read Wild Animals in Captivity by Kleiman
and all, which is a book that I
think was first published in the 80s, they
already talk about that, right?
Like, animals are dependent on us.
And so what the 24-7 concept tries
to do is to bring awareness to wherever

(30:37):
the animals are, they are in human systems,
and they are dependent mostly on us for
all the things that they want and need.
And this is why in that concept and
also in our paper, we talk a lot
about, yes, we need to be the animal
trainer, right?
We need to be the animal enricher.
We are the caregivers.

(30:57):
We give care.
Those are the things that we do.
And then depending on how good we are,
that will dictate also the quality of the
animals' lives, right?
That's where we talk about our quality of
care is their quality of life.
But how do we then become not just
animal caregivers, but actually become habitat or environmental

(31:20):
managers?
How do we become the people that actually
obviously have a good relationship with the animals
because we train them for go sit on
a scale and all those sorts of things?
But what we actually do is we manage
the environment in such a way that they
can do most of the things that they
want to do most of the time without

(31:43):
having to depend on us for all the
things and waiting for them.
And so the 24 concept is really doing
that.
This is true.
It's not a welfare assessment.
It's an awareness raising tool that goes, OK,
so you're only at work for eight hours
or you're only at home maybe for eight
hours.
How would I create environments where the animals

(32:06):
can do the things they want to do
so they can be the agents of their
life?
And then it, of course, also brings in
the things that we need to then think
about, whether it's the life stage of the
animal.
Well, what sort of role have we given
the animal?
Are they an exhibit animal?
Are they an ambassador animal or are they
actually food for other animals in the zoo?

(32:27):
So I could have an amazing rat habitat
where they are on a reverse night cycle
and they have all that stuff and it's
so much fun and they have a great
life.
And then I've got rats in the back
that are actually breeder rats for the snakes
and for other animals.
And they just are in this sort of
small cage with nothing in it.

(32:48):
But so the role that we give animals
is going to massively affect the well-being
of the animal.
And then the seasons will and the geographical
area of where you are.
So the 24-7 concept is really trying
to have you step back and really look

(33:10):
at all the things and then tie it
to.
And now what is it that we need
to do?
Like, what is it that I can do
in the environment?
So I reduce the dependency on humans as
much as possible.
And that's really what 24-7 Across Lifespan
is about is an awareness raising tool.
And for you to remember that whether you

(33:30):
are with them or not with them, you
are ultimately the one that they're waiting for.
And how can we make that waiting less?
How can we have them be more agents
of their lives?
As you're talking about coming in to turn
on the lights and put the food down,
I'm thinking about the many geckos that I've

(33:50):
worked with over my life.
Where that is the amount of time they
generally got as you went around your rounds
through the multiple enclosures, turning the lights on,
spraying the waters, spraying the water, spraying.
When I say that to the listener who
doesn't know what I'm talking about, I should
explain what I mean.
That's having a spray bottle and misting, putting

(34:12):
mist into their habitat to raise their humidity.
And in what you're talking about, remind me
of an episode we did with Susan Friedman
and Rick Heister.
And I'm going to direct the listeners to
go back and listen to that episode.
You can find it in our catalogue and
quote them on this.

(34:34):
Don't quote me on what I'm saying right
now.
But they were doing some investigation of some
of their animals in their collections.
And they literally found that when they went
back or when they when they did observations
after they had left.
So they had come and they'd done their
things.
They'd done their training, they'd thrown their food
in and they left.

(34:56):
And then no one was observing them.
But then they went, well, let's observe them.
And the animals were literally just waiting, just
waiting at the gates for the humans to
come back and do their things.
So you worded it like this is when
you first started answering this question.
You worded it so that the animals can
be the agent of their own lives as

(35:17):
much as possible.
Are you able to think of any examples
where you've really had a profound impact on
either a team or an organization you work
with or just an individual?
Sorry, Sabrina.
Environmental manager.
And they've kind of employed this and managed

(35:42):
the environment to let the learner living in
that environment become more of an agent of
their own life.
Yeah.
So and I think, you know, like we're
definitely always going to be animal caregivers.
Right.
And because that's what we do, we give
care and hopefully we do that in the
best way.
And one of the ways that we give
care or that we can care is about

(36:04):
like managing the environment for the animals.
And then you're also like the habitat manager.
But not all your care is going to
be necessarily being a habitat manager.
So that's why I sort of use them
separately.
And some of the examples like it are
around.
So what is it that animals would be
doing and what they enjoy doing and whether

(36:28):
that is, you know, different modes of locomotion,
whether it is obviously being able to or
things that they need, like being able to
shelter from the environment, from the environmental elements
or whether it is your ability to access
food when you want to eat.
So when we work with facilities in general,

(36:49):
we what we really look at is the
quality of the environment, the complexity of the
environment.
So whether it is for a monkey or
any other species, what we try to do
is like.
So, for example, many of the changes that
we've made, for example, for monkeys or boreal
monkeys.
So monkeys that like to be up in

(37:10):
the trees and like that sort of cover.
But then they also do a lot of
locomoting.
What we often have in different whether it's
sanctuary or zoo or anywhere else.
And that doesn't, of course, only apply to
monkeys.
But you can sort of see it as
an example is that they we have maybe
some places where they can sit.

(37:30):
So maybe some shelves or maybe some cords.
But because they like to be high up
and into trees, if you're sort of doing
the observations, you would see that they would
use maybe only one third of their habitats
or their environment because they just like to
be high up.
And also, there's often very little going on

(37:51):
in the other two thirds.
And it's very exposed.
So it's sort of putting on your hat
and go, OK, who are you?
Where do you usually live?
What are the things that matter to you?
And how can I now actually make maybe
this this habitat into one giant tree right
from top to bottom?
So I'm really looking at creating, using.

(38:14):
I often talk about how do we make
the environment as functionally interesting for the animal
as possible?
What is it that we need to do?
So creating this massive, you know, big tree
by adding in covers, visuals, barriers, extra ropes,

(38:35):
all the other sorts of things, allows me
to think not only about how are they
moving, are they swinging, are they jumping?
Right.
Because you don't want to just create one
massive tree and then animals can't locomote anymore.
Or if we're thinking about making having birds
have the ability to fly more.
We have to think about how do they

(38:56):
take off?
How do they land?
How do they turn?
Because the way that you're going to create
more opportunities in the environment has to be
informed by those things, because otherwise they might
still just be walking around or hopping around
because they actually can't take off, turn and
do all those sorts of things.
So in general, any of the work that

(39:17):
we do is really looking at what is
the space that you can work with, whether
it's very, very small.
And that's why I like really thinking about
looking at all kinds of different facilities.
So my work in research laboratories has had
really great insights.
And you can find this, for example, in

(39:37):
our paper in confronting back of house traditions,
which is the smaller areas that we often
keep these animals in.
They're often barren compared to the front of
house, the exhibits that the public sees.
But these smaller facilities or smaller areas have
inspired me to see how can we take

(39:58):
what I've learned from, for example, a research
lab or in general, creating more functional space
and bring that into the back of house
areas.
So what can we do?
And maybe you're not a lot of the
facilities we work with are very old.
You can't just go and drill in the
walls or, you know, hang stuff from the
ceiling, because, of course, you need to do

(40:18):
this together with people who know the structure.
You're not just going to do whatever.
But if you can't drill in the walls
or if you can't hang from the ceiling,
then what could you do structure wise that
you could literally sort of put in a
back of house?
So that's what we have done.
We have sometimes brought in all the poles,
all the stuff, and then we constructed a

(40:40):
structure that was, you know, just standing on
the ground that would allow us to build
and hang without actually, you know, working with
the physical structure that we didn't know how
to work with.
So we're constantly thinking in that sort of
space or like sometimes when I travel to
very warm, like hot countries, there might be

(41:02):
beautiful structures like here in Chimp Eden, for
example, in South Africa.
They have beautiful structures in their sanctuary for
the chimpanzees.
But a lot of them, they're like sort
of huddled together in this one place.
And that's because that's the only place that
has shade.
And so, you know, how would we, because
we want animals to use their environment as

(41:24):
much as possible and being able to, you
know, play and rest and sleep and not
necessarily having just one space.
How would we then adapt that already, that
structure that is already there for them to
be able to use it by adding extra
shades, by adding blockers and whatever else not.
So it's constantly thinking about who lives here.

(41:45):
What are the things that are important to
them, whether that is the way that they
move or the way that they socialize or
the way that they sleep.
Even like small perches, like if animals like
to sleep and socialize together or play together,
if your perches are that small, and I
often see that there's a lot of different
perches, but there's not one huge perch or

(42:08):
multiple huge perches or platforms.
So it's very hard to actually hang out
together or be together.
So it's really sort of putting yourself into
the fins or the shoes or whatever we
want to call it, the paws from who
the other is so that you can really
go.
And a lot of these things are, you
know, not necessarily very expensive, they're not necessarily

(42:30):
very complicated, but it's a matter of thinking
more deeply about what does that environment look
like.
And this is, of course, also crucial when
you're building new.
Because at Animal Concepts, we often talk, and
I just submitted a report the other day,
I talk about building new old things because
we keep building, you know, boxes, even though

(42:52):
in the 50s, Heidegger already talked about a
box being the most unnatural space for an
animal.
And then the boxes are also often still
designed in the same way.
So when we're thinking about animals being agents
of their own lives, it's really thinking about
what would they be doing.
And on our platform, we have one wonderful
conversation with John Cole, who's an amazing landscape

(43:17):
architect.
And you probably know about him.
I see you nodding.
And he talks a lot in that conversation.
We talked about what are we doing for
animals that they could do better for themselves.
And that's ultimately sort of the idea between,
of course, agency and the 24-7 concept

(43:38):
types.
Like what are we doing that they could
do better for themselves?
And what is it actually that we need
to do better by building better, by developing
better, by making environments better?
And this is, of course, also the origin
of environmental enrichment, these two words, right?
We realize, oh, wait a second, this environment

(44:00):
isn't very good.
We need to go and enrich it.
We need to make it better.
And in the lab sciences, you will actually
find papers that talk about environmental refinement, because
they use the three R's.
And one of the three R's, there's the
reduction and replacement, but there's also refinement.
And so they talk about how do we

(44:20):
make this habitat, this place better for animals?
How do we refine what we do?
And then at Animal Conscious, we like to
talk about enrichment as being the cherry on
top, because ultimately, right, you have to create
these habitats, these environments that animals can do
what it is that they want to do,
when they want to do it, with who,
and all those sorts of things most of

(44:42):
the time.
And if you become very, very good at
that, then if you look up a little
video, it's not a little video, it's a
video on YouTube from the Oregon Zoo with
Dr. David Shepard, who wrote Second Nature.
He said if we get very, very good
at creating good spaces for animals, then maybe

(45:04):
enrichment as we know it today is no
longer relevant in that way.
And that points again to agency.
It's about who are you, what matters to
you, and can you do what you want
to do better than we could do it
for you?
Is that an offering of a definition of
agency?
How do you, how could you do what

(45:27):
you want to do better than we could
do for you?
Yeah, I think we could turn that into,
I don't think that's how necessarily agency is
defined today, but that's certainly how I talk
about it a lot in the 24-7
and so on.
Yeah, like who do we need to be

(45:47):
so they can, and what do we need
to do so they can do what they
want to do when they want to do
it?
Yeah.
And you think of an example where you've
asked that question and then you provided the
environmental change, a environmental change or opportunity where
an animal has then gone and done something
better than the humans that were managing their

(46:10):
environment and caring for them or doing for
them.
Yeah, so I think, so the better as
in.
Yeah, that's a good point.
What do we mean by better?
Yeah, I think it's more, to me when
I was saying that, it's more like rather
than having to sort of wait for like
Sabrina to come and I don't know, you

(46:32):
know, put your food there, like what ways
would we set up the environment so that
you can forage, that you can access food
so you don't have to necessarily wait for
me to, obviously I need to at some
point do something, but right now we have
like a lot of different food feeds as
a sort of routine and that then becomes

(46:53):
the way that animals forage.
But, you know, for example, look at some
Amazon parrots.
If you look at the literature, a lot
of these parrots will forage like six to
eight hours a day.
You know, they're not eating.
They're just foraging, right?
And it's important to sort of think about,
so consuming your food is a behavior that

(47:14):
is part of a much wider foraging repertoire,
right?
So there's the sort of feelings of hunger
or, you know, the stimulus to go and
hunt or forage.
And then you need to do all that
sort of work, right?
Whether it's digging or, you know, going through
leaves or jumping from one place to another
or like checking on whether the fruit is

(47:37):
ripe or not.
Like there's literally so many things.
Or if you're hunting, then maybe when you've
got your small prey, you're actually one of
these small animals that wants to hide their
food.
And so sometimes we see stereotypic behavior, you
know, in these smaller cats and so on.
They're just walking around with this prey, but

(47:59):
they can't actually hide it anywhere, right?
So we've failed to provide those sorts of
environments for the animals to go hide their
prey and then come back to it later.
So it's sort of thinking about those sorts
of things that allows us to really think
about what is it that we would need

(48:21):
to do so they can do the things
better in sort of that way and more
complete and more holistic.
Because, of course, it is important.
For example, we know that a lot of
giraffes in human care, they will just drink
all at the same time.
And in a while, they would never do
that because that's not smart, right?
There could be somebody lurking around that wants

(48:42):
to, you know, eat you.
So somebody's looking around and some are drinking
and that alternates, right?
But a lot of giraffes in human care,
of course, don't have that sort of stimuli,
which is good.
You know, I'm not advocating to put lions
in with the giraffes.
But we are missing, you know, the animals
are going to be missing a lot of

(49:03):
the different behaviors that they would be.
And this is sort of, you know, pointing
to the, if we're thinking about learning or
training in this sort of really broad perspective.
And somebody who's talked a lot about this
is the late Graham Law.
He talked a lot about so what are
all these various behaviors part of a particular
repertoire, which is obviously not a standalone from

(49:25):
from all your other things that make that
that that is a sentient being.
We would have to challenge animals in different
ways.
Right.
So they get stronger, they get cognitive stimulation
and so on and not necessarily feel.
A lot of times I might hear, oh,

(49:45):
I feel bad about that.
You know, I don't want them to have
to work too hard or to be a
little scared or.
But it is in that sort of like,
you know, that's why we have meerkats like
being the sentinels, like they're looking around.
And then if they if there's a little,
you know, thing happening or there's a bird
of prey circling above, they do their thing.
And that's allowing for social cohesion.

(50:07):
Right.
But if we're going to cover the whole
meerkat habitat, they would they would never have
any of those sorts of stimuli unless you're
going to introduce them.
And this is sort of these ideas around
them, of them, you know, doing the things
better than we could ever do them is
because they are actually engaging in them.

(50:28):
They are actually doing those behaviors that keep
them physically and psychologically well and sort of.
And that's sort of how I think about
it.
And so whether it is indeed, you know,
having a shadow or something fly, even if
you are in an enclosed area.
It's like, how would you introduce that so
that they would still be doing those behaviors,

(50:51):
still, you know, have the social effects and
everything else?
Because obviously it is not good for well
-being short term, I think, even though some
of the things are not necessarily always pleasant.
But life is not always pleasant.
Right.
And for us to think about a certain

(51:12):
degree of stress or stressors, whether it's on
your physique or on your psychology, it's important
to become a strong, right.
Physically fit, but also resilient person or an
other animal that can solve things that happen.
So I think those all those things are

(51:32):
sort of tied together when I'm thinking about
agency.
And again, another seeking of definition in your
words, knowing that, again, as I ask this,
I'm like people understand this word and the
listeners will understand this word.

(51:52):
But I want to hear it in Sabrina's
word because of who you are and your
knowledge and experience and your skill set.
When you say well-being, can you offer
a definition for our listeners of that word?
OK, so obviously there are a lot of
different animal welfare definitions out there on, you
know, very specific to health.

(52:14):
So just to sort of set the stage,
what I'm thinking about is the five domain
model, which is thinking about the social environment
of animals.
It's thinking about health.
It's thinking about nutrition.
It's thinking about environment.
It's thinking about behavior in these three with

(52:35):
regards to the environment, to other animals.
And of course, the human animal interaction, including,
you know, when I say social life, it's
really, you know, of their own lives.
But also the life that they have with
the human care staff or the animal trainer
or whoever you define.
And how all of these leads to different

(52:59):
mental states in various ways.
So how that impacts.
And so recently I was thinking about, OK,
so when I'm thinking about well-being, what
are some of the things that are important
to me when we say that?
So the definition that I wrote is animal
well-being comprises the psychological and physical experience,

(53:21):
including emotion and all needs and most preferences
of an individual animal as perceived by herself
or himself.
And the ability to exert agency over one's
life to a meaningful extent.
A wide variety of experiencing ranging from positive
to negative affect animal well-being.
A variety of inputs may act simultaneously and

(53:45):
may be synergistic rather than simply additive in
their consequences.
Therefore, the well-being evaluation should consider all
measurable factors and how they interact.
The focus should be monitoring and assessing animals
based on their experience and promoting agency, choice
and control and predominantly positive well-being.

(54:09):
That's how I've sort of tried to make
sense of a field that is, you know,
pretty complicated in that sense or can be
sometimes pretty contentious because, you know, obviously there's
there's so many different also streams of research
and opinions as well on who other animals

(54:32):
are and how we define their well-being.
But I would say that most people today
are in the space of thinking about animal
well-being with regards to their psychological and
physical experiencing, including, of course, feeling emotions.
And so but then I try to tie
together what are all the other things that

(54:53):
ultimately, because that's sort of the shorthand for
then what are all the other things that
come that are important?
What does that look like in the real
world?
I guess that's what I was trying to
get at.
Right.
When we talk about choice versus control, they're
two different things, but they can work, you
know, obviously together.

(55:13):
Or if we're talking about agency, if we
talk about these things, what does that look
like in real life for an animal?
Right.
What does it mean?
So how do these things inform the type,
the quality of care that we give, the
quality of the environments of the animal?
Because I'm always interested in hearing, you know,

(55:34):
what does that look like?
What specifically are we doing?
What is the action so that and how
do we know?
Right.
And we know that through whether it's behavioral
observations like ethograms or whether it's qualitative behavior
assessments and looking like the at the emotional
expression of animals.

(55:54):
Like, how do we know that what we're
doing is actually benefiting them?
And how do we know that they can
do the things better and by themselves, like
as much as possible without us is to
be able to, of course, do research, but
also, you know, common sense in the sense
of like, if I am doing all the

(56:15):
things.
Habitat wise, environment wise, that allow them to
not be at the gate waiting for people
to come back.
All those sorts of things, if we see
them engaged, like with their environment, engage with
each other and, of course, also respond positively
to the people that care for them, because

(56:35):
we don't want animals that are afraid of
us every day.
A lot of that, even without necessarily doing
formal, formal research, your observations can tell you,
are we succeeding, right, of them feeling that
they have control, that they have a choice,
that they have opportunities, because the less.

(56:55):
And this is, I think, the other thing
is being comfortable with being uncomfortable that animals
will not choose you, that they will choose
their environment, that they choose each other, that
they choose things over you, and that I
will feel joy from that.
It's sort of like, right, your ability to

(57:17):
sort of go like, you go and do
your thing, because you will be able to
do it better than I ever can.
And then, of course, I would want to
have the best relationship I can through positive
reinforcement or other means so that I can
care for you when you need it.
And that comes to, you know, a super

(57:37):
practical example.
In 2007, I said, let's ask the animal
which trainer they want to work with.
And people were like, no, I don't want
to do that, because what if I don't
get chosen?
And I'm like, well, what do we need
to do to get chosen, right?
And it's sort of this bird's eye view

(57:59):
to me is like, yes, I want to
be important in an animal's life, but I
don't want to be so important that they
can't do without me.
And I think that's the big difference to
me where I'm trying to tie these things
together.
We've got limited time left.
So, firstly, I'm just going to encourage to

(58:22):
you and the listeners, appreciate if you're still
listening, because we went off on some tangents
here from the original list of five things.
But I've really enjoyed it.
And I think it's been really valuable.
Okay, Serena, are you ready?
Because I'm going to throw some random thoughts
at you that have been coming to my
mind as we've been talking.

(58:42):
Let's do it.
So I was listening as I was putting
my daughter to sleep before we jumped on
this podcast today to a podcast.
And it was about the New Zealand context
and about how we've been in a recession
and about operating as a business in this
country.

(59:03):
And it was this idea that when things
get hard, like in a recession, people are
like, oh, my God, like we need to
change things and we need to get better
and we need to do this and we
need to do that because our business is
struggling.
And then changes are made and they get
back to a place where they're comfortable.
And then they're like, okay, cool, we're comfortable

(59:24):
here.
This is good.
No more changes.
We don't need to do anything.
We'll just cruise.
And so that's fresh in my mind, obviously,
because I was listening to it before we
jumped on here.
But then, you know, one thing that stuck
out to me today and I'll say as
an off the cuff statement from you, but
you've been on your soapbox talking about this
stuff and people roll their eyes and they're
like, Serena, seriously, not this again.

(59:46):
But then it reminded me of that.
And I think one of the things that
stick out to me as you talk is
a lot of your answers to questions are
questions.
So they're like, yes, you're agreeing.
Like, so how do we know what we're
doing?
And what does that look like?
How do these things inform the quality?

(01:00:07):
That's how you're asking the question by asking
questions.
And so the listening to the podcast, listening
to you talk, hearing that people roll their
eyes when you talk about this.
I just want to end the show by
asking you, you said you're going to talk
about this until we don't need to talk
about it anymore.
But do you think there's a similarity between

(01:00:30):
and I think it's potentially a human thing
across lots of fields.
But you get into a level of complacency.
What you're saying is this is a question.
I'm not saying what you're saying.
You say what you're saying.
I'm asking is what you're saying is when
we get that level of complacency.
Yeah, cool, man.
Like I'm at work, like everything's going well.

(01:00:55):
Now I'm feeding all the animals and seeing
all the animals and doing a good job.
But really, when you hit complacency, what you're
saying is how can we do better?
That's what I'm taking away.
It's like we can reach complacency.
We can reach things are good.
We can reach.
We feel like a good job.
But that's not when you stop.
That's when you keep going.

(01:01:16):
Yes.
Yeah, I'm scrolling things, scribbling things down as
you're talking, because definitely.
So I'm very looking forward to answering that
question.
I'm also very happy to actually tie my
five things together, even though we didn't necessarily
always talk about them in detail.
I get stuck on one thing and just

(01:01:37):
go down the rabbit hole.
So thank you for designing that, Sabrina.
Appreciate it.
Yeah.
No, absolutely.
So why don't I tie these five things
together and then finish with this question?
Because it's ultimately what it is about, right?
So your ability to really think 24-7

(01:01:58):
across lifespan allows you to deep dive into
that and to really go like I'm never
going to understand it completely.
There's a ton of stuff we don't know
from animals in the wild, right?
I'm never going to get it.
I will always get it a little wrong
or even a lot wrong, but that's OK.
But I'm going to really dig with this.
And because I'm going to do it through

(01:02:18):
that lens with welfare models such as the
five domains and really then putting on the
hat on, OK, let's just first map it
out.
Let's go, what has my dog learned from
our routines, from whatever it is?
What have we inadvertently trained or what have
they learned without me being aware of it?

(01:02:39):
That can help you by watching videos and
those sorts of things.
Sort of really getting a good understanding and
bring lots of compassion and care, right?
Bring the flashlight.
It's all information.
And now how can we make it better,
right?
And really thinking about, OK, so now that
I know those sorts of things, how can
I make things better?

(01:03:01):
So, for example, if I sometimes see animals
that sort of walk away or fly away
or they huddle in the corner, that is
not great.
We don't want that.
How can I make that better?
What sort of training plan, what sort of
enrichments, what sort of environment, what can I
do to make that better?
Right.
And also, if I want, I'm an excellent
animal trainer and I and this is a

(01:03:23):
huge shout out to all everyone listening here.
If you're a very, very good animal trainer
or, you know, learning to train animals, think
about how would those principles apply?
So reinforcement schedules.
Animals don't feed all the time in the
world.
Right.
But we might feed every correct response.

(01:03:43):
But if I'm thinking about that in how
they engage in their environment.
So think back to those parrots, you know,
six to eight hours.
How would I now do use reinforcement schedules
to actually extend feeding time and make it
harder to do so that I get closer
to instead of parrots eating everything in 20
minutes?
I'm going to use, you know, thinking about

(01:04:06):
training or or timers or reinforcement schedules in
a way that I actually extend that feeding
repertoire.
Right.
So that's that's sort of feeding all that
knowledge and skill that you have into these
and including, of course, with the public.
There's so many things that how that could
also be something.

(01:04:27):
Right.
So how do you become that habitat manager
with your trainer hat on?
And then, of course, with regards to what
is it that you know that you could
do as an animal trainer in research?
So how can you deploy your research skills
to ask questions about what matters to animals
or how their physiology or cognition works?
And that could be another way of sort

(01:04:48):
of extending all the work that you're already
doing, whether it's with your companion animal or
the stables that you're working.
So how can you use your trainer hat
to maybe provide enriching activities for animals by
doing research?
And if you're specifically working in a zoo
or conservation or other area where it's sort
of thinking about what are the things that

(01:05:10):
animals would need to know to be successful
in the wild?
And how can I use my behavior trainer
hat to align with conservation goals?
And and so and because all these things
tie together ultimately.
Right.
If especially if you're focusing on wild animals
is like how do how are you well
today?

(01:05:30):
And but also how do you stay well
over time, but also how does your species
stay well across time?
And that and this is sort of how
all these things ultimately, whether it's the environment
24 seven or the specific training that you're
doing for carrying them on a daily basis
or through research or specifically for conservation.

(01:05:51):
How do you put your trainer hat on
to make those things happen directly with the
animals or indirectly because you are the habitat
manager?
And then with regards to the last question
on.
So wait, before I run into that, is
that sort of a good wrap up?
Thumbs up.
Yes.
Awesome.

(01:06:12):
So with regards to complacent.
So we know that humans, you know, probably
all animals, really.
We just try to take the road of
least resistance because, you know, it's hard.
Right.
And so it has all kinds of evolutionary
reasons.

(01:06:32):
So we have to literally override it.
Right.
Just like if we're thinking about human well
-being, it makes you know, you are always
on the lookout for danger.
And so, you know, you will remember negative
things more than positive things.
That's why we have to counteract that by,
for example, writing down positive things that happened

(01:06:53):
that day.
Right.
And recollected.
So, yeah, we have the tendency to either
be take the road of least resistance and
so on.
So it's easy to become complacent.
And and also we a lot of us
like to learn new things.
So I have sort of called it, you
know, new shiny things.

(01:07:13):
I have a blog about it where people
like, oh, not that topic again.
Right.
We want to hear new stuff.
And I'm like, yeah, of course, I'm learning
all the time.
You want to be learning new things, but
very, very important.
A lot of things.
That's why the very beginning of the podcast,
I said, hey, a lot of this stuff
is not new.
People have written about this for decades.

(01:07:33):
And so our role is to not only
become complacent with sort of what is the
status quo and challenging that today.
But what is it actually that we have
known for a very long time or a
very short time and we're not using it?
Right.
So building that bridge from learning principles or
specific animal training or anything else and then

(01:07:55):
putting it into action.
And I love this.
So Jim Quick, who is somebody who helps
people remember things and do things, but really
sort of learn things.
He has these actually have it here written
because I want to remind myself all the
time.
And so he has these three questions that

(01:08:16):
he that he asks is how can I
use this?
So if there's anything from this podcast today,
I want I would love you to ask
these questions.
How can I use this?
So what in this podcast resonated with you
were like, hmm, I could I could use
this.
I will do this.
Right.
Why must I use this?
And sometimes you can and sometimes you can't.

(01:08:37):
Or sometimes you have to be creative and
go, oh, wait, that came from horses.
I'm working with dogs.
Could I adapt it?
Right.
And the other is when will I use
it?
So because today is the day, as I
often talk about.
Right.
Today is the day.
So what small step, what small change could

(01:08:57):
you make for the animals or for yourself
today?
So how can I use it?
Why must I use it?
And when?
Because Tuesday is a day.
Right.
And today, the 13th of January, 2025 is
a day.
But some day is not a day.
So think about how will I do this?
And then and then the other thing is
one of my mentors said.

(01:09:18):
Right.
You will never get there.
We will never get there.
Right.
We can have a goal.
So I'm going to train this behavior from
start to finish.
I'm going to set up a training program
or welfare program.
Right.
You can hit goals.
You can hit steps.
But ultimately, we're never going to get there.
We're always we will we'll be sailing from

(01:09:40):
shore to shore, if you like.
But we'll be navigating on stars because there
will always be new information, even in the
animal training field.
Like I would not consider myself today as
somebody who is massively informed in the animal
learning and training theory anymore because I have
shifted.
Right.

(01:10:00):
So this is why it goes back to
the wheelhouse, because we are there's so many
new things and there's so many new research
and new practices.
Right.
So you'll be you're never going to get
there.
And again, because we have our tendency to
sort of become maybe complacent or not put
on the fresh glasses, it's easy to sort
of stick with that.

(01:10:21):
So and I think one of the important
part of what we want to keep inspiring.
So Albert Schweitzer talks about right to something
wonderful.
People may imitate it.
So what is that small thing that you
could do that inspires you to do to
make a change and may also inspire others?
And then the other and what you can

(01:10:42):
always keep in your mind, which is one
of my favorites.
And I'm going to end on this.
My favorite sayings is what you do speak
so loudly.
I cannot hear what you say.
Right.
Because ultimately.
And so this is well, Waldo Emerson, because
ultimately, if we're going to nail the well
-being.
Right.
If we're going to be so good that,

(01:11:03):
you know, they're doing things better than we
could ever do or even for ourself in
self-care.
But what you do speak so loudly.
I cannot hear what you say.
That really has it really sums up.
Right.
That's by seeing how well we do.
And of course, we're going to use research
and so on allows us to really stay

(01:11:25):
in that space of where we can always
make things a little bit better.
And in that way, the animal is going
to be well and we are going to
be well.
And that's all going to help.
I could keep going, but I'm not going
to.
Obviously, let's let's ask you to share with
the listeners where they can go to find
you online and get in touch and check

(01:11:47):
out everything that you offer.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Thanks, everyone, for listening.
You can find me on the usual social
medias of Facebook and Instagram and LinkedIn.
And of course, our website, animalconcepts.eu. And
yeah, thanks so much.
And I really look forward to hearing from
you, especially like today's the day.

(01:12:07):
And I would love to hear what one
thing will you do so people can drop
a comment somewhere.
I would love to hear what that's going
to be.
Wonderful.
We will link to all of that in
the show notes so you can do that
as well.
Well, this has been great, Sabrina.
So from myself and on behalf of everyone
listening, we really appreciate you taking the time
to come and hang out with us again.

(01:12:28):
Thank you so much.
Well, thank you for inviting me.
I would like to connect with you again.
So thanks so much, Ryan.
And thank you so much for listening as
well.
This is your host, Ryan Cartlidge, signing off
from this episode of the Animal Training Academy
podcast show.
We hope today's conversation inspired you and equipped

(01:12:53):
you with new tools for your trainer's toolbox.
Remember, every challenge in training is an opportunity
to learn and sharpen your animal training geekery.
Embrace the rough patches, learn from them and
keep improving.
And don't forget the path to growing your
skills and expanding your knowledge continues beyond this

(01:13:16):
episode.
Visit www.atamember.com to join our supportive
membership where you will find a community of
trainers just like you.
Together, we're making a huge positive difference in
the lives of animal and human learners worldwide.

(01:13:38):
Until next time, keep honing your skills, stay
awesome.
And remember, every interaction with an animal or
human learner is your opportunity to create ripples.
We're here cheering you on every step of
the way.
See you at the next episode.