July 28, 2025 • 52 mins
In this powerful and heartfelt first part of a two-part conversation, we’re joined by the insightful and compassionate Adam Skandarani—Certified Control Unleashed Instructor, Karen Pryor Academy Certified Training Partner, and tireless advocate for both dogs with Really Big Feelings and the humans who support them.
Adam takes us on their “behavior odyssey,” tracing a journey shaped by learning, unlearning, and growing alongside their two Boxers—Sansa and the unforgettable Flash Gordon. Through stories that are raw, moving, and instructive, Adam shares how Flash, with all his intensity, reactivity, and need for connection, became not just a training challenge but their greatest teacher.
Together, we explore:
✅ How unmet social and medical needs can drive misunderstood behavior
✅ Why talking about behavior without discussing its context is a fruitless endeavor
✅ The power of control, decompression, and choice in building behavioral wellness
✅ Lessons from the late great Flash Gordon, ATA’s honorary “Chief Remedial Socialization Officer”
✅ Practical ways to support clients navigating resistance around pain assessment
✅ The importance of trainer self-care and embracing therapeutic support
This episode is a beautiful reminder that beneath every behavior lies a story—and that when we meet our learners where they are, profound transformation is possible. Dedicated to the memory of Flash, whose legacy continues to teach us all.
Links
instagram.com/flashofbrilliancedogs
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
Welcome to the Animal Training Academy podcast show.
I'm your host, Ryan Carledge, and I'm passionate
about helping you master your animal training skills
using the most positive and least intrusive approaches.
Here at ATA, we understand that navigating the
vast challenges you encounter in training requires a
(00:27):
comprehensive base of knowledge and experience.
It's common to face obstacles and rough patches
on your journey that can leave you feeling
overwhelmed and stressed.
Therefore, since 2015, we have been on a
mission to empower animal training geeks worldwide.
We've aided thousands in developing their skills, expanding
(00:51):
their knowledge, boosting their confidence, and maximizing their
positive impact on all the animal and human
learners they work with.
We are excited to do the same for
you.
Simply visit www.atamember.com, join our vibrant
(01:12):
community and geek out with us.
And of course, in the meantime, enjoy this
free podcast episode, as we explore new ways
to help you supercharge your training skills, grow
your knowledge and build your confidence so that
you can craft a life that positively impacts
(01:32):
every learner you encounter.
We will start today's episode where I'll be
talking to one Adam Scandirani.
Adam is a skilled dog trainer passionate about
helping dogs with really big feels.
Whether that's teenagers struggling with the world, dogs
(01:54):
experiencing guarding or aggression, or sport dogs battling
arousal or shut down.
As a Certified Control Unleashed Instructor and Karen
Pryor Academy Certified Training Partner, Adam blends science
based training with deep empathy and creativity.
Using reinforcement based methods rooted in understanding each
(02:17):
dog's unique needs.
They are also a vocal advocate for inclusion
and equity in the dog world, teaching in
both Arabic and English and mentoring other trainers
and competitors of colour.
With experience across sports, behaviour and collaboration with
veterinary professionals, Adam brings a rich multifaceted perspective
to every case from competing in nose work
(02:39):
and agility to helping reactive dogs thrive in
sport.
Adam's work is all about connection, compassion and
skill building for both dogs and their humans.
So without further ado, it's my very great
pleasure to welcome Adam Scandirani to the show
today, who's patiently waiting by.
Adam, thanking you so much for taking the
(03:01):
time to come and geek out with us
at Animal Training Academy.
Thank you so much, Ryan.
It is my pleasure.
I am so happy to be here today
to talk to you and listen and gain
some perspective as well.
Let's give some.
So I'm excited for you, the listener, to
join us, whatever you're doing when you're listening
(03:24):
to this podcast.
One of our community managers said they're going
to be listening to the show on a
dog walk today.
So I know a lot of you walk
your dogs or you're driving your cars to
a client's house.
Or if you're like me, you're putting your
five year old daughter to sleep.
So whatever you're doing, enjoy the conversation that
follows.
Let's dive in, Adam.
(03:44):
And I was hoping I love hearing about
people's behavior odysseys, as I like to call
them.
So I was hoping that you could share
yours with us and take us back to
where you first learned about animal training, about
positive reinforcement, about behavior science and share some
stories with us from your journey.
Absolutely.
I started as a hobby trainer in about
(04:08):
2012, training my first dog.
She was a boxer by the name of
Sansa.
She was a pretty little Brindle girl who
just came from someone down the street, you
know, who was selling puppies.
We didn't know about ethical breeding back then
in my family, in my household, and she
(04:30):
turned out to be the genetic mess that
she was, but her temperament was super solid.
And she was a perfect first dog to
learn with.
And so she took me on my journey
of learning about dog sports, she took me
on the learning journey for behavior as well.
(04:50):
So I started professionally training, I started shadowing
a dog trainer at the facility that I
was competing and training for agility at and
competing in at.
And we started doing puppy classes together.
So I started assisting with puppy classes back
in 2014, really.
(05:12):
And I have been growing and learning ever
since Flash, Flash Gordon, my second boxer, he
is the face of my business than the
the name behind it and everything.
He is the reason why I got as
nerdy and as deep into behavior as I
(05:32):
have.
He just was not answering to any of
the the very basic knowledge that I've had
learning through Sansa.
And I learned that although Sansa made me
a very good, basic trainer, she did not
make me as great as I thought she
(05:53):
did.
And Flash instead tore me down humbled me
and then built me right back up again
to where I feel I am in a
better position to help people now than I
was prior to Flash.
They share with us a little bit about
Flash Gordon.
(06:14):
Why were they I mean, you just told
us unpack for us a little bit more.
I'd love to hear some stories about why
Flash Gordon is the reason that in your
words, you got as nerdy as you did
about behavior science.
Absolutely.
He is he was, of course, to be
(06:35):
reckoned with.
He he recently passed away at almost nine
years old.
He had a sponic mass and the quality
of life that he had, he just would
not be able to sustain with further intervention.
So we decided to euthanize him recently as
his quality of life began to decline.
But prior to that, he was my my
(06:58):
greatest teacher, my greatest ally, my best friend.
He had all sorts of big feelings as
a young dog, an adolescent.
He he embodied the big feels that we
were discussing earlier.
And they would come out in very barky,
lungy behaviors.
And more often than not, they would come
(07:20):
out as redirected barky, lungy behaviors at me.
So there was a lot of body slamming,
a lot of clothes tugging, a lot of
just aggression in my general direction.
So I became very, very, very good at
handling that type of aggression as it manifested.
And I never really quite got as far
(07:41):
as I wanted to, again, with you with,
you know, the older we're talking about almost
10 years ago, the older school positive reinforcement
training that we kind of all grew up
with.
Just it never was enough.
And so I needed more, I needed more,
(08:02):
I needed deeper knowledge.
And so I sought it out.
And that's where I discovered people like Sarah
Strumming, who taught me about behavioral wellness as
a holistic picture, that we should really take
the welfare of dogs into consideration and the
wellness of dogs into consideration, first and foremost,
(08:22):
before we start working on training, I discovered
the hard way that pain can cause a
lot of unwanted behaviors in our dogs.
I learned that when Flash had 13 teeth
taken out of his mouth at the age
of four, because his mouth was just overcrowded,
and he had extra teeth, and just there
(08:45):
was not enough room in that mouth.
And so 13 teeth came out, almost all
of them on the right side of his
mouth.
And within two weeks of recovering from that,
he was a different dog.
He all this work that I had put
into him all these control unleashed pattern games
and protocols, all of these skills, I started
to build all of them, just suddenly, he
(09:05):
was able to access.
And he was able to just say, Oh,
this thing that you wanted me to do
for all these years, I can suddenly do
that now.
Oh, you didn't want me to bark and
lunge at that dog walking by 20 feet
away?
Oh, okay.
Yeah, I can eat food instead.
I guess that's fine.
And so that really hit home for me
(09:26):
the importance of medical welfare for our clients.
I have a million more stories that I
could share.
I have a million more anecdotes that I
could share.
But really, he pushed me to learn to
view behavior through the context in which it
exists, if that makes sense.
(09:48):
At this past year's clicker Expo, Dr. Susan
Friedman said something during her talk that was
really profound, and it hit me, even though
it shouldn't have.
But anyway, she said, behavior, talking about behavior,
without discussing its context, the context in which
it in which it exists is meaningless, essentially.
(10:11):
We have to talk about context in order
to understand behavior.
It doesn't just pour out of us like
a faucet.
And yeah, yeah, exactly.
And so that has allowed me to look
back at a lot of flashes behaviors, like
hearing that mulling that quote over and everything
has allowed me to look back at his
behaviors and the context in which they occurred.
(10:32):
And I started to learn that maybe flashes
reactivity and his big feelings were not what
I always thought they were.
He was not actually an aggressive dog.
He was a super hyper social dog who
was not having his social needs needs met
in an appropriate outlet, if that makes sense.
(10:54):
And so it wasn't until I mean, I
know, I just heard this quote now, but
it wasn't until I started years ago, being
able to offer him that social outlet that
he needed, that he was really, really able
to start thriving.
I did not see that as such a
need that he needed until I started meeting
(11:15):
it.
Every individual is different.
And that seemed to be something really big
to him.
And then hearing that quote and going back
and mulling over this journey with him, I
was really able to see how impactful that
was.
Most of his behaviors came from that need.
And as that need became fulfilled, and as
we addressed that real pain in his mouth,
(11:37):
those two things together, in addition to teaching
him all the skills that he knows, or
knew, helped really truly heal him of that
reactivity that he was experiencing and displaying.
And allowed him to just kind of go,
Oh, yeah, there's no big deal.
I don't need to make it known that
(11:59):
I like this dog that is in front
of me or that I need them to
go away, as the, you know, situation told
us.
He just was able to just exist calmly
in the world.
And I think that was really important for
him.
What I love about our behavior odysseys is
(12:20):
we unfortunately live longer than a lot of
our learning partners and our teachers, our non
-human ones.
And so what a great honor to be
sat here today, being able to learn from
a teacher and a learning partner who are
(12:43):
no longer with us.
So let's dedicate this episode to Flash Gordon,
and the lessons that you, the listener, are
going to benefit from based on the teamwork
of Adam and Flash.
I'm interested, I love this talking about behavior
without discussing the context that it exists in,
(13:04):
is a fruitless endeavor.
Behavior doesn't just sprout from a faucet.
It's something that I talk about a lot
when working with green trainers or people a
little bit earlier on in their journey, or
even people a little bit later on in
their journey, because we, I think, can lose,
not everyone obviously, but some of us can
(13:25):
lose sight of how behavior works adequately.
Sorry, adequately, appropriately, that is the name of
Susan's business, behavior works, but we can lose
sight of that.
We can lose sight of that because of
the industry and conversations that happen within our
(13:48):
industry online and in whatever communities we get
involved in.
We can lose sight of it because of
our own narrative sometimes that we create about
the behavior of our learners, about the narratives
that we are invited into from our clients
about their animals behavior, and it takes discipline,
(14:11):
I think, to navigate the complexity of the
emotions that come with those narratives, both for
ourselves and our clients.
Respect that, allow people to have their space,
to honor the experience they're having, but then
also simultaneously stand with the science.
(14:32):
Help us understand a little bit why like
that, that was that particular Susanism kind of
hits you seemingly at the right time, the
right information.
I mean, you know, you might go back
two years from now, listen to that same
talk and take away something completely different, but
for now it was that.
Like what was it about that?
Unpack that a little bit more for us.
(14:52):
Yeah, absolutely.
Just like I was there to receive Sarah
Strumming's knowledge and experience at that time that
I received it, and I was able to
help and grow from it.
I got a very, very, very basic understanding
and was able to then extrapolate from that
and continue on.
(15:13):
When I heard this particular Susanism, I love
that term, I'm going to use it, it
struck me from that same lens that Sarah
kind of instilled in my mind's eye of
welfare and the holistic approach.
Because part of the context that we don't
(15:34):
often take into consideration is that health component
of the dog, like what is going on
inside their bodies that is contributing as a
distant antecedent towards their behaviors.
And sometimes we can see behavior as seemingly
erratic and unpredictable when it makes perfect sense
(15:58):
to the dog with what's going on inside
a dog's body that we don't often have
insight to without doing a lot of invasive
tests and diagnostics to find out what's going
on.
I just sent a client, a brand new
client of mine to their veterinarian so that
we could get some extensive x-rays going
(16:18):
on and maybe start a pain med trial
and things like that.
Because I have some suspicions that we should
be looking in this direction.
And after speaking with their vet, they quite
agree that this is definitely something we should
be looking into.
And that was something that Flash taught me.
He taught me to look here first.
(16:38):
And I do believe that we are staying
in our lanes when we are working with
the veterinary teams to be able to do
this, as long as we are working with
veterinary teams to be doing this stuff.
And we are not diagnosing, we are not
doing anything.
But it is in fact, within our lane
to go within our wheelhouse to go, hey,
something doesn't look to be something is not
going right in your dog's behavior.
(17:00):
And in my history, in my experience, we
have seen this linked to pain.
We know there are studies linking XYZ to
pain if there are studies, etc, etc, etc.
To for this particular type of pain, you
know, that's what I'm saying.
I know there are studies out there generally
and whatnot.
But we and as long as we are
(17:22):
working within our wheelhouse to help a veterinarian
diagnose something, then yeah, sure, we are we
are working within our lane, but it is
not our job to do the diagnosing.
It is not our job to do the
suspecting, things like that.
But we do have to look into it
as a dissent and antecedent.
And so that's kind of where it hit
me there of everything has context, including pain
(17:47):
that is resultant of potential behavior, sorry, behavior
that is resultant on potential pain.
And just for the listeners, whom a large
percentage of and not everyone, but you the
listener, you might fall into the segment of
our animal training can be podcast listenership slice
(18:08):
of the pie.
You're out there working with clients and your
job, therefore, is to, in the perfect world,
I know that before I say that people
are living in certain geographical locations where this
becomes a little bit harder to do.
(18:28):
And it can take time to build up
relationships based on adding people to your air
quotes team that not only have the expertise
and skill to diagnose something like pain, but
also that you as an individual human learner
(18:51):
have a relationship, get along well with and
can work in an effective collaboration with just
because someone's a behavior vet doesn't mean that
you and them are a good team in
terms of your communication styles, et cetera, et
(19:13):
cetera.
And so tell us with a flash of
brilliance, Adam, your dog training business, got that
right?
Yeah.
Are you out there working with clients with
aggression?
I'm working with clients who display aggressive behaviors,
like their dogs display aggressive behaviors towards other
dogs, and then also dogs who display aggression
(19:35):
towards their own owners, though that tends to
be my wheelhouse.
And you have this unique position in terms
of having gone through what you went through
with flash.
I'm assuming things about you, so let's check
that my assumptions are correct.
Like you have people in your network, locally
(19:57):
behavior vets, veterinarians that you've built these relationships
with that you can lean on, that you
can ask for help for me.
And so the reason I ask this is
because we have a lot of listeners and
I make this assumption again, based on our
membership and within our membership, excuse me, we
(20:19):
have online community and within that online community,
people can pose their questions.
And I would say one we get frequently
is, you know, I have this behavior issue
and I don't know what to do.
And our community, our helpful community members will
jump in and say, hey, you should likely
talk to a veterinary professional who specializes in
(20:43):
behavior.
And the person might say, in my country,
that's not something that's easily accessible or we
don't have one in our geographical area.
And so one is that and then two,
it becomes really hard for the client because
the client's like, yo, solve my problem.
And, you know, I've got a high risk
(21:03):
situation because this dog is using behaviors that
we label as aggression to get what it
needs.
But they don't understand the benefit of veterinary
behaviorists, they've talked to their vet and their
vet's like, nah, it's fine, you know, and
no disrespect to those vets, but there's potentially
missing that specialization.
(21:24):
What do you have to say to the
listeners in terms of navigating this?
You might be in a place where you've
got your team, that's great.
But I know that there's a large proportion
who haven't built that yet or don't know
how to communicate with clients who may put
up some resistance to what our listeners can
(21:46):
clearly see is a need for that perspective
to either rule it in or rule it
out.
Absolutely.
So I was once in that position where
I didn't know where to go and what
to do and how to build this network.
And I leaned really heavily on my network
of other really good, competent trainers who know
(22:09):
better, who have been doing this longer than
me and who also do this type of
training, this holistic approach really, really, really, really
well.
I lean on them and ask them for
their opinions on people.
I have asked Kiki Ablon for information on
veterinary behaviorists that she trusts in the Chicagoland
(22:30):
area, for example.
I have a veterinary behaviorist in Maine now
who I really like to talk to.
I met at a workshop one day and
we just got to talking.
And so now I really like who they
are as a person.
Our communication styles match up.
I really love their wheelhouse of knowledge and
(22:52):
they are really, really well connected with other
specialties within the hospitals that they work in
and then other places.
So this one veterinary behaviorist is in Maine
and I send all my local people here
in Massachusetts up there within a three hour
driving distance.
I love being able to talk to her.
(23:13):
I like sitting in on these sessions.
If both the veterinary behaviorists and the client
allow, I can sit and I can zoom
in and listen and hear what is going
on.
And if there is something that I can
clarify on, I can do that if the
time and space allows for it, things like
that.
And then I also recommend talking to your
(23:33):
own vets as much as possible.
So if you have a problem and you're
not quite sure, your vet says everything seems
to be fine, things like that, I would
maybe send in an email, something that they
can take their time to mull over and
be like, hey, this is what I'm seeing.
This is why I went to this community
(23:56):
of trainers to ask about it.
And this is why they seem to be
saying to talk to a veterinarian about it.
This is what we think we're looking for.
What are your thoughts on that?
If this is something you're not comfortable doing,
do you have someone you can refer us
to so that we can do some of
these stuff?
Usually, I have had really, really, really, really
(24:19):
good luck with veterinarians, even those who don't
always believe in what I have to say.
As long as I am open, kind, making
sure that I am staying in my lane
and not being pompous about it, things like
that, we are asking them to double check
their work.
It would behoove us to be kind about
(24:39):
it.
It would behoove us to be nice about
it.
And it would behoove us to be professional
about it as well.
So that is how I have built up
my network, is by talking to my veterinarians,
seeing what they have to say, listening to
other veterinarians in Facebook groups here and there
and everywhere, listening to what other trainers in
(25:00):
my cabinet, in my list of trusted trainers
see who they have worked with and really
like, and utilizing my network of people.
So if you don't have a network of
people, it's time to build one.
And I will be happy to be part
of that network of people.
And one other bit, and I'm thinking of
a specific case now, which is why I
(25:20):
want to push a little bit more, because
I know that the individual I'm thinking of
has a network.
I mean, they've got, it's arrogant when I
say this, but I don't mean it like
that.
They've got me and therefore they've got access
to Animal Training Academy and therefore they've got
access to community.
And still they're dealing with a client who's,
(25:42):
excuse me, is resistant to exactly what we're
talking about, getting a pain med trial, for
example, going and the individual non-human learner
in question might be euthanized because of behavior
issues.
And this is a large emotional toll on
(26:03):
this trainer.
And we all know that this is a
hard industry to navigate in, whether you're a
dog trainer, especially if you're a veterinary professional,
whether you work in the zoo context, is
there's so much more to dog training and
animal training than training.
One of those is dealing with situations like
the one I've just described.
(26:23):
So that's going to be part of it
as well.
Do you have anything to share on that
component of this issue we're talking about?
Yeah, I'm curious.
Is it the client themselves that is opposed
to checking things out medically or is it
their veterinarian?
So that is where I would parse things
out a little bit.
My understanding of the situation, which may be
(26:45):
wrong, and if you listen to the show
and you think, oh, maybe Ryan's talking about
me, firstly, appreciate that we have a great
relationship and that I can do that.
Secondly, my understanding is that, and I say
this, all of that, because maybe I don't
have the exact details correct, is that the
veterinary has been consulted.
(27:07):
The veterinary is not somebody who, within our
New Zealand framework, has that behavioural specialist component
of the products that they offer, basically, or
the clinic that they work in, whatever it
might be for this individual.
And therefore, this person, without having that credential
(27:29):
within the New Zealand region, which is different
than other parts of the world, has said
everything's OK.
And so there's the suggestion that that's great,
but there's potential value in bringing in other
professionals who do have this credential.
And that's where the friction is.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, it makes a lot of sense.
(27:50):
And I'm wondering if we can get curious
with the veterinarian on hand and ask if
they would be willing to do a vet
-to-vet consult, for example.
That might be something that we could work
on.
And they can communicate with a veterinarian somewhere
in the world, over via Zoom, Google Meet,
somehow, to just have a discussion about the
(28:11):
case about this dog, have a consultation, and
just go to town, see what this professional
who does have the credentials might show that
they need.
Hey, we could be using an X-ray,
we could use an MRI, we could use
all of this.
And then if that stuff is available for
the client or for the veterinarian to help
(28:33):
with the client to get, that would be
the ideal world.
And sometimes, unfortunately, we just live in situations
that aren't the ideal world.
I know I myself will be soon dropping
this bombshell on this podcast when I haven't
even mentioned it to the world yet.
But I will be myself moving to a
(28:54):
country where I will be having very limited
health care for my animals.
And I am trying to decide how I
am going to handle this in my own
mind, because I don't know.
I don't know how I'm going to navigate
this new path.
So I will have better personal insight to
a question like this in a few months,
potentially.
(29:15):
But yeah, bringing in other potential professionals on
a call could be helpful, something like that,
if we can, if they are open to
it.
Yeah, and I just want to, just a
thought just crossed my mind, and I think
it's an important one to add, and I
would invite your perspective or any thoughts you
(29:37):
have on this for that individual, or if
you're a listener of the show, might find
yourself in similar situations.
And I'm sure if you do this long
enough, you will find yourself in situations that
share at least some similarities with what we've
just talked about, the importance of looking after
yourself in that space.
So I just wanted to add that and
(29:57):
invite any comments from you before we move
on, Adam.
Oh, it's so important to take care of
yourself.
And that's sometimes half my job.
Have you done a cortisol reset on yourself
lately?
I think finding balance is where it's really
at.
So I am from the Middle East.
(30:19):
I am a Muslim.
And one of the teachings that we have
been raised with, at least that I have
been raised with, is that the greatest of
two nations is the most moderate between them.
And what that just means is moderation is
key, balance is key.
All of that is key, including in all
aspects of life.
(30:40):
And so if we are getting to the
point where we are burning ourselves out to
care for our dog, to the point where
we are unable to recover from that, that's
not OK either.
So we have to be taking care of
ourselves.
We need to fill our own cups before
we can fill anyone else's cups.
And I think in this particular, like in
a case that is so big and heavy
(31:02):
such as this, I really want to prioritize
that almost more than anything else.
And so if continuing through is hard, if
it's too hard, if it's too much, then
the decisions that the owners of these dogs,
of this dog, depending on if the decision
is euthanasia, then I think that is a
(31:25):
very good decision for them, too.
It's so hard to make.
It's so hard to do.
And it's not my place to say one
way or the other, obviously.
So, yeah, we have Juliana D Willems on
the show.
Nice.
Depending on when they get released, they might
be the episodes previous to this or they
might be coming out after.
(31:47):
But we talked about therapy and she bravely
shared that she went to therapy.
And that just floated into my mind as
you were talking then, the benefit of therapy.
I feel like we all need therapy.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah.
Therapy helps me every single day in every
aspect of my life.
And I actually speak with someone on a
(32:09):
less regular basis now, but for a while
there on a fairly regular basis who specializes
in dogs and feelings around dogs and stuff
like that, her name is Andrea Harrison.
She's based in Canada.
She does a lot of work with kids.
(32:29):
She does a lot of work with people
and their feelings.
She does a lot of stuff like that.
And I first took a course with her
through Fenzie Dog Sports Academy called Love the
One You Are With.
And it was hard.
It was the hardest dog training course I've
ever taken.
And it was basically therapy.
And I learned to accept Flash, who is
(32:52):
the dog I took it with.
I learned to accept him for who he
is and meet him where he's at instead
of wishing him into being someone else.
I took the teachings from that course and
I passed them along to my clients.
I am a huge fan of the Burnout
book by the Nagoski sisters.
(33:13):
That has been a huge help for me.
I also try to implement it with my
clients.
I think closing the stress cycle and being
aware of those stress cycles and how emotions
can run through us is really, really important.
And I think the Nagoski sisters do a
really good job of describing those things in
very digestible ways for the average person.
(33:35):
So I really lean heavily on that book.
Amazing, I haven't heard of those people in
that book before.
So thank you for that.
I want to circle back to, first I
just want to acknowledge that in 2025, I
think every podcast we do, people mention others
whom have been impactful on their work.
(33:57):
If we were to give an award for
the most mentions in 2025 so far, I
think that would go to Kiki Yblanc.
I think she's mentioned in every episode, so
shout out to Kiki, we love her.
Go Kiki!
The other thing you mentioned that was really
important that you learned from your time with
(34:20):
Flash of the million stories you could tell
was meeting his needs in an appropriate context.
Do you want to talk to that a
little bit more, what you mean by that
and what that specifically looked like, build on
what you've already said, what that specifically looked
like for Flash?
Yeah, so specifically his social needs, that is
(34:42):
something that I spent the longest time parsing
through what that looked like for him.
He started his life out, I was a
dog walker when he came into my life
and I also ran through that same company.
I helped run a playgroup and so it
was all our dogs in our own private
(35:02):
dog park, like we knew everything that was
going on, the ins and outs, it was
a pretty well run playgroup with a good
ratio.
I really appreciated it.
And he came to work with me almost
every day.
And so he got a lot of his
big, boisterous boxer adolescent feelings out by playing
(35:23):
with all these other big, boisterous adolescent dogs.
Some of them were older and they taught
him what's why and he listened.
Boy, did he listen.
He was really good at that.
And he also got to play with a
bunch of young dogs just like him.
And he ran and he ran and he
(35:43):
played and he never learned what it looked
like to just take a break.
And so he was your typical, as they
say, daycare dog.
He only knew how to play big and
boisterous and he did not understand what calming
signals look like.
He did not understand what it was when
(36:04):
another dog needed a break from him.
He did not understand how to tell another
dog he needed a break.
He lacked all those skills, essentially, that he
needed.
And so through the help, like with the
help of Sarah Strumming and with the help
of other trainers local to me and my
network trainers, such as like they're all smaller
(36:27):
named trainers than that.
But like people like Connor Kingfisher, people like
Ranca, their name is skipping me at this
moment.
But anyway, I'll get back to that.
But anyway, through the help of everybody, we
were able to kind of remedially socialize Flash.
(36:47):
I think it was Strumming that coined that
phrase remedial socialization.
And we essentially taught him through the use,
through the use, through the like facilitative learning
of older, much more appropriate dogs who were
good with other dogs, unbothered by other dogs,
appropriate with their communication styles with other dogs.
(37:09):
Using them, we were able to help Flash
learn to develop those skills on his own
as well.
So first it started out with really, really
savvy dogs and their handlers and owners.
And then it turned into as my skills
grew and my observation skills and knowledge into
me taking out dogs for social outings as
(37:32):
well.
So for adventure hikes, things like that.
And I called it a remedial socialization program
where I took all these dogs with all
these big feelings, learning how to interact with
each other and help them learn to interact
with each other.
By the end of this, Flash turned into
I call him my chief remedial socialization officer.
He he was the dog who if I
(37:54):
wanted to know if a dog was going
to make it at all in this program,
he would be the first dog I introduced
them to.
He would tell me this dog has what
it takes or not.
And he would tell me pretty immediately.
He was very good at just sizing them
up in that moment.
I remember one day I brought a Shiba
Inu to our group for the first time
(38:14):
ever.
And she was such a kitty cat.
I loved her and he was so excited
to meet her because he loved this particular
group of dogs.
He loved how boisterous and how energetic they
were.
And he ran right over to the Shiba,
got right up to her, took one look
at her and backed away slowly.
(38:34):
He knew that she did not want to
be messed with and he did not bother
her.
And he, in fact, helped facilitate other dogs
not bothering her.
So if he saw two dogs playing, getting
a little too close into our space, he
would kind of come in between them a
little bit and create space, give her an
opportunity to move away.
He did a lot of really good looking
(38:55):
out for the group that I didn't know
how to do at my on my own.
And it was only through watching him do
it that I was able to figure it
out for myself and learn how to do
it, if that's really cool.
So that's what I mean when I say
like he was one of my greatest teachers.
A lot of the stuff that I know
is truly just because watching him helped me
(39:19):
understand what I was seeing.
It sounds like an amazing journey.
So thank you for allowing us that window
into what can't adequately help us understand the
journey you guys have been on together.
But give us a small window into it.
In your work now, how much would you
(39:41):
say, and I want to talk about this
a little bit, and exciting opportunities that are
coming up that are linked to this in
some capacity.
Your Karen Pryor Academy certified training partner, having
been through that program myself, I therefore appreciate
the level of skill and competency and knowledge
(40:02):
that you have.
You're also a Certified Control Unleashed instructor.
And I say that with great admiration and
excitement about that program and wanting to engage
in the future myself.
Can you share a little bit with our
listeners about what being a Certified Control Unleashed
(40:22):
instructor involves?
Absolutely.
So that just means Leslie McDevitt oversaw my
work and saw that I know what I'm
doing in terms of understanding and teaching the
pattern games and other core concepts of Control
Unleashed to other people, to a group of
(40:42):
people, and also to dogs.
So I was able to demonstrate that for
her, for her to certify me as a
Control Unleashed instructor.
I'm also one of the TAs for this
program.
So I help mentor people who are coming
into the program to become certified.
And what that involves is just reviewing video,
(41:03):
asking questions, understanding depth of knowledge, sending them
in the right direction if they need a
little bit more work on this particular thing
or another, you know, things like that.
And how this applies in my work is
that I, having worked under Leslie and working
with her so closely, I work with her
on a regular basis.
(41:26):
I am able to take the concepts, ask
her the questions.
I'm very glad that I have that, that
access to her to ask her, like, what
were you thinking when you created this particular
thing?
And then I can get the core concepts
from those games, the core key components of
them and then apply them elsewhere.
So that is how I used Requested Approach
(41:50):
Training, RAT, to help Flash navigate the trial
environment when he decided that the crating areas
were a little too rough on him and
it was hard for him to walk that
gauntlet of crates barking at him and everything.
So we started using Requested Approach Training.
I had him hold an object in his
(42:10):
mouth for as long as he felt comfortable
moving through the space.
And if he dropped it or asked me
to take it from him, we would either
retreat or stay, kind of put where we
were if it was safe enough.
But he always knew as long as he
was carrying that thing, he was headed to
his crate and in his crate was a
snuffle mat.
And so he said, I can do that.
(42:31):
And so that's how I started out with
Control Unleashed, was using this, at the time,
very new concept.
I think this was back in 2019, pretty
new concept of Requested Approach Training to do
this fairly complex piece of of behavior work
with him in terms of the crating areas
and trials.
(42:52):
I like using Control Unleashed as both management
and a kind of operant counter-conditioning protocol
or tool.
I love using them when I am stuck
in a, like literally stuck in a place
(43:12):
and I cannot move for triggers all around
me and my dogs.
I like throwing in an up-down pattern
game, for example.
I like throwing in a one-two-three
to help dogs get through scary situations.
I have done a webinar twice now for
Clean Run called See You and the City,
(43:33):
Control Unleashed and the City, and it's all
about how I used Control Unleashed to help
Flash, who was terrified of the city, learn
to feel more comfortable in his own skin.
I never got him to poop in the
city, but I got him to pee in
the city, and that's a huge accomplishment.
I'm actually going to be, I work so
(43:54):
closely with Leslie, I'm going to be working
with her in the future again.
I'm currently working with her on a project
that we are going to be presenting for
everyone at the Aggression and Dogs Conference in
Charlotte, North Carolina, later this year in late
September.
So I'm very much looking forward to that.
(44:15):
It'll be my first conference of that size
for me to speak at.
I am only a little nervous and a
whole lot of excited because I know I
have Leslie on stage with me and we
will, she will cover me, she will cover
me where I can't, where I start losing
it.
I know that.
But we are excited to bring topics to
(44:37):
you that have been near and dear to
our heart in this past year.
We will be talking about decompression cues and
kind of more functional reinforcement and how to,
you know, include Control Unleashed in some of
that and how we can make it look
a little bit different for different dogs and
help them just enter a calmer state of
(44:59):
mind.
Well, congratulations on that.
I mean, when you say it'll be my
first conference of that size, I would hazard
to say it's one of the North America
most, well, with regards to our audience, you
know, again, this podcast listeners, I hypothesize who
(45:21):
you are because I don't know you personally.
I wish I did.
That'd be amazing.
Based on our membership, based on our members,
based on what they post in our community.
And I know Michael Shikashio's Aggression in Dogs
conference is a big conference, a big event
in the calendar year.
So it's your first conference of that size,
(45:43):
but what a size.
I mean, what a way to be recognized
and appreciated and to do that and to
get the and to do that next to
Leslie McDivitt.
I mean, that's amazing.
Congratulations.
Thank you.
What even is my life?
And I'm so grateful to Michael Shikashio for
giving me this opportunity.
It's going to be it's going to be
(46:04):
so cool.
I am so excited.
I just hope I don't have to picture
people in their underwear to feel more comfortable.
I've never actually done that.
Have you done that?
I don't think it actually works.
I can't see how it would work.
(46:26):
Like I wouldn't like when I'm presenting, I
want to be focused on what I'm presenting.
I just feel like that would make that
really challenging.
I don't see how that would help.
That's what I found to help me better
is to actually know the material I am
speaking on.
(46:47):
Quick note for those who are listening, you
might want to go and see you in
person at the conference or they might want
to watch you online because I know that
there's multiple opportunities and ways to attend that
event.
Can you remind us when it is?
(47:08):
And you'll just go to the Aggressive Dogs,
maybe you'll know more than me, website to
find all the links there.
Absolutely.
So if you go to AggressiveDog.com over
on the top right corner, it'll say conference
and that will give you all the details
that you need.
It's going to be in Charlotte, North Carolina,
September 26th through the 28th.
(47:30):
So that's a Friday through a Sunday.
And there are two tracks.
There's a live in-person track and then
there's also a live stream option.
Both are still available.
But I know Michael was saying that in
-person tickets will be selling out soon.
(47:53):
So if you are in the U.S.
or can make it to the conference and
want to, I definitely recommend that you go
ahead and purchase those tickets as quickly as
you can.
And if going in person is not an
option, but you still would like access, you
can live stream, you get access to the
(48:15):
recordings.
I believe it is for a year after
the fact.
You are going to hear some pretty awesome
speakers such as Kim Brophy, Sarah Fisher, Trish
McMillan, Andre Yu is going, Leslie McDevitt as
well.
Yeah, amazing.
(48:35):
Well, thank you for sharing so much about
that.
Big shout out to Mr. Shikashi Yo for
his ripples.
I think we're nearing the end of people's
drives on their way to their consults or
the end of their dog walks.
So let's wrap up this for part one
of our conversation today.
Adam, we are going to invite Adam back
(48:57):
to talk about the art and science of
animal training in part two.
But before we officially wrap up, can you
just share with everyone where they can go
online to find out more about you, what
you do and get in touch?
Absolutely.
You can find me at flashofbrilliancedogs.com or
you can find me on Facebook looking under
(49:19):
Adam Scandarani.
I'm sure we'll link everything in the show
notes.
Instagram, you can find me at Flash of
Brilliance Dogs.
I am one of those people who has
an Instagram page for each of my dogs.
So if you want to follow any specific
dog's journey, you are more than welcome to
follow one of them.
You can find them from my business Instagram
(49:39):
page.
So I have to ask one more thing
before we wrap up, Adam, because I can't
even manage my own Instagram account, let alone
multiple.
What is your secret?
Way more time on my hands than I
actually need.
It's all part of, in reality, it's all
(50:01):
part of my business marketing stuff.
So if I'm sitting down to do a
post for Flash of Brilliance, I'm sitting down
to do a post for one of the
other dogs too.
Amazing.
Well, I look at people like you and
awe and wish that I could have the
required variables in my life to make that
(50:22):
happen.
But this has been so much fun, Adam,
on behalf of myself and everyone listening, we
really appreciate you coming on part one of
our conversation today.
Thank you so much.
Thank you for having me.
It's been a pleasure and I can't wait
to be back.
And thank you so much for listening as
well.
This is your host, Ryan Cartlidge, signing off
(50:44):
from this episode of the Animal Training Academy
podcast show.
We hope today's conversation inspired you and equipped
you with new tools for your trainer's toolbox.
Remember, every challenge in training is an opportunity
to learn and sharpen your animal training geekery.
(51:05):
Embrace the rough patches, learn from them and
keep improving.
And don't forget, the path to growing your
skills and expanding your knowledge continues beyond this
episode.
Visit www.atamember.com to join our supportive
membership where you will find a community of
(51:28):
trainers just like you.
Together, we're making a huge positive difference in
the lives of animal and human learners worldwide.
Until next time, keep honing your skills, stay
awesome and remember every interaction with an animal
or human learner is your opportunity to create
(51:50):
ripples.
We're here cheering you on every step of
the way.
See you at the next episode.
Welcome to the Animal Training Academy podcast show.
I'm your host, Ryan Carledge, and I'm passionate
about helping you master your animal training skills
using the most positive and least intrusive approaches.
Here at ATA, we understand that navigating the
vast challenges you encounter in training requires a
(00:27):
comprehensive base of knowledge and experience.
It's common to face obstacles and rough patches
on your journey that can leave you feeling
overwhelmed and stressed.
Therefore, since 2015, we have been on a
mission to empower animal training geeks worldwide.
We've aided thousands in developing their skills, expanding
(00:51):
their knowledge, boosting their confidence, and maximizing their
positive impact on all the animal and human
learners they work with.
We are excited to do the same for
you.
Simply visit www.atamember.com, join our vibrant
(01:12):
community and geek out with us.
And of course, in the meantime, enjoy this
free podcast episode, as we explore new ways
to help you supercharge your training skills, grow
your knowledge and build your confidence so that
you can craft a life that positively impacts
(01:32):
every learner you encounter.
We will start today's episode where I'll be
talking to one Adam Scandirani.
Adam is a skilled dog trainer passionate about
helping dogs with really big feels.
Whether that's teenagers struggling with the world, dogs
(01:54):
experiencing guarding or aggression, or sport dogs battling
arousal or shut down.
As a Certified Control Unleashed Instructor and Karen
Pryor Academy Certified Training Partner, Adam blends science
based training with deep empathy and creativity.
Using reinforcement based methods rooted in understanding each
(02:17):
dog's unique needs.
They are also a vocal advocate for inclusion
and equity in the dog world, teaching in
both Arabic and English and mentoring other trainers
and competitors of colour.
With experience across sports, behaviour and collaboration with
veterinary professionals, Adam brings a rich multifaceted perspective
to every case from competing in nose work
(02:39):
and agility to helping reactive dogs thrive in
sport.
Adam's work is all about connection, compassion and
skill building for both dogs and their humans.
So without further ado, it's my very great
pleasure to welcome Adam Scandirani to the show
today, who's patiently waiting by.
Adam, thanking you so much for taking the
(03:01):
time to come and geek out with us
at Animal Training Academy.
Thank you so much, Ryan.
It is my pleasure.
I am so happy to be here today
to talk to you and listen and gain
some perspective as well.
Let's give some.
So I'm excited for you, the listener, to
join us, whatever you're doing when you're listening
(03:24):
to this podcast.
One of our community managers said they're going
to be listening to the show on a
dog walk today.
So I know a lot of you walk
your dogs or you're driving your cars to
a client's house.
Or if you're like me, you're putting your
five year old daughter to sleep.
So whatever you're doing, enjoy the conversation that
follows.
Let's dive in, Adam.
(03:44):
And I was hoping I love hearing about
people's behavior odysseys, as I like to call
them.
So I was hoping that you could share
yours with us and take us back to
where you first learned about animal training, about
positive reinforcement, about behavior science and share some
stories with us from your journey.
Absolutely.
I started as a hobby trainer in about
(04:08):
2012, training my first dog.
She was a boxer by the name of
Sansa.
She was a pretty little Brindle girl who
just came from someone down the street, you
know, who was selling puppies.
We didn't know about ethical breeding back then
in my family, in my household, and she
(04:30):
turned out to be the genetic mess that
she was, but her temperament was super solid.
And she was a perfect first dog to
learn with.
And so she took me on my journey
of learning about dog sports, she took me
on the learning journey for behavior as well.
(04:50):
So I started professionally training, I started shadowing
a dog trainer at the facility that I
was competing and training for agility at and
competing in at.
And we started doing puppy classes together.
So I started assisting with puppy classes back
in 2014, really.
(05:12):
And I have been growing and learning ever
since Flash, Flash Gordon, my second boxer, he
is the face of my business than the
the name behind it and everything.
He is the reason why I got as
nerdy and as deep into behavior as I
(05:32):
have.
He just was not answering to any of
the the very basic knowledge that I've had
learning through Sansa.
And I learned that although Sansa made me
a very good, basic trainer, she did not
make me as great as I thought she
(05:53):
did.
And Flash instead tore me down humbled me
and then built me right back up again
to where I feel I am in a
better position to help people now than I
was prior to Flash.
They share with us a little bit about
Flash Gordon.
(06:14):
Why were they I mean, you just told
us unpack for us a little bit more.
I'd love to hear some stories about why
Flash Gordon is the reason that in your
words, you got as nerdy as you did
about behavior science.
Absolutely.
He is he was, of course, to be
(06:35):
reckoned with.
He he recently passed away at almost nine
years old.
He had a sponic mass and the quality
of life that he had, he just would
not be able to sustain with further intervention.
So we decided to euthanize him recently as
his quality of life began to decline.
But prior to that, he was my my
(06:58):
greatest teacher, my greatest ally, my best friend.
He had all sorts of big feelings as
a young dog, an adolescent.
He he embodied the big feels that we
were discussing earlier.
And they would come out in very barky,
lungy behaviors.
And more often than not, they would come
(07:20):
out as redirected barky, lungy behaviors at me.
So there was a lot of body slamming,
a lot of clothes tugging, a lot of
just aggression in my general direction.
So I became very, very, very good at
handling that type of aggression as it manifested.
And I never really quite got as far
(07:41):
as I wanted to, again, with you with,
you know, the older we're talking about almost
10 years ago, the older school positive reinforcement
training that we kind of all grew up
with.
Just it never was enough.
And so I needed more, I needed more,
(08:02):
I needed deeper knowledge.
And so I sought it out.
And that's where I discovered people like Sarah
Strumming, who taught me about behavioral wellness as
a holistic picture, that we should really take
the welfare of dogs into consideration and the
wellness of dogs into consideration, first and foremost,
(08:22):
before we start working on training, I discovered
the hard way that pain can cause a
lot of unwanted behaviors in our dogs.
I learned that when Flash had 13 teeth
taken out of his mouth at the age
of four, because his mouth was just overcrowded,
and he had extra teeth, and just there
(08:45):
was not enough room in that mouth.
And so 13 teeth came out, almost all
of them on the right side of his
mouth.
And within two weeks of recovering from that,
he was a different dog.
He all this work that I had put
into him all these control unleashed pattern games
and protocols, all of these skills, I started
to build all of them, just suddenly, he
(09:05):
was able to access.
And he was able to just say, Oh,
this thing that you wanted me to do
for all these years, I can suddenly do
that now.
Oh, you didn't want me to bark and
lunge at that dog walking by 20 feet
away?
Oh, okay.
Yeah, I can eat food instead.
I guess that's fine.
And so that really hit home for me
(09:26):
the importance of medical welfare for our clients.
I have a million more stories that I
could share.
I have a million more anecdotes that I
could share.
But really, he pushed me to learn to
view behavior through the context in which it
exists, if that makes sense.
(09:48):
At this past year's clicker Expo, Dr. Susan
Friedman said something during her talk that was
really profound, and it hit me, even though
it shouldn't have.
But anyway, she said, behavior, talking about behavior,
without discussing its context, the context in which
it in which it exists is meaningless, essentially.
(10:11):
We have to talk about context in order
to understand behavior.
It doesn't just pour out of us like
a faucet.
And yeah, yeah, exactly.
And so that has allowed me to look
back at a lot of flashes behaviors, like
hearing that mulling that quote over and everything
has allowed me to look back at his
behaviors and the context in which they occurred.
(10:32):
And I started to learn that maybe flashes
reactivity and his big feelings were not what
I always thought they were.
He was not actually an aggressive dog.
He was a super hyper social dog who
was not having his social needs needs met
in an appropriate outlet, if that makes sense.
(10:54):
And so it wasn't until I mean, I
know, I just heard this quote now, but
it wasn't until I started years ago, being
able to offer him that social outlet that
he needed, that he was really, really able
to start thriving.
I did not see that as such a
need that he needed until I started meeting
(11:15):
it.
Every individual is different.
And that seemed to be something really big
to him.
And then hearing that quote and going back
and mulling over this journey with him, I
was really able to see how impactful that
was.
Most of his behaviors came from that need.
And as that need became fulfilled, and as
we addressed that real pain in his mouth,
(11:37):
those two things together, in addition to teaching
him all the skills that he knows, or
knew, helped really truly heal him of that
reactivity that he was experiencing and displaying.
And allowed him to just kind of go,
Oh, yeah, there's no big deal.
I don't need to make it known that
(11:59):
I like this dog that is in front
of me or that I need them to
go away, as the, you know, situation told
us.
He just was able to just exist calmly
in the world.
And I think that was really important for
him.
What I love about our behavior odysseys is
(12:20):
we unfortunately live longer than a lot of
our learning partners and our teachers, our non
-human ones.
And so what a great honor to be
sat here today, being able to learn from
a teacher and a learning partner who are
(12:43):
no longer with us.
So let's dedicate this episode to Flash Gordon,
and the lessons that you, the listener, are
going to benefit from based on the teamwork
of Adam and Flash.
I'm interested, I love this talking about behavior
without discussing the context that it exists in,
(13:04):
is a fruitless endeavor.
Behavior doesn't just sprout from a faucet.
It's something that I talk about a lot
when working with green trainers or people a
little bit earlier on in their journey, or
even people a little bit later on in
their journey, because we, I think, can lose,
not everyone obviously, but some of us can
(13:25):
lose sight of how behavior works adequately.
Sorry, adequately, appropriately, that is the name of
Susan's business, behavior works, but we can lose
sight of that.
We can lose sight of that because of
the industry and conversations that happen within our
(13:48):
industry online and in whatever communities we get
involved in.
We can lose sight of it because of
our own narrative sometimes that we create about
the behavior of our learners, about the narratives
that we are invited into from our clients
about their animals behavior, and it takes discipline,
(14:11):
I think, to navigate the complexity of the
emotions that come with those narratives, both for
ourselves and our clients.
Respect that, allow people to have their space,
to honor the experience they're having, but then
also simultaneously stand with the science.
(14:32):
Help us understand a little bit why like
that, that was that particular Susanism kind of
hits you seemingly at the right time, the
right information.
I mean, you know, you might go back
two years from now, listen to that same
talk and take away something completely different, but
for now it was that.
Like what was it about that?
Unpack that a little bit more for us.
(14:52):
Yeah, absolutely.
Just like I was there to receive Sarah
Strumming's knowledge and experience at that time that
I received it, and I was able to
help and grow from it.
I got a very, very, very basic understanding
and was able to then extrapolate from that
and continue on.
(15:13):
When I heard this particular Susanism, I love
that term, I'm going to use it, it
struck me from that same lens that Sarah
kind of instilled in my mind's eye of
welfare and the holistic approach.
Because part of the context that we don't
(15:34):
often take into consideration is that health component
of the dog, like what is going on
inside their bodies that is contributing as a
distant antecedent towards their behaviors.
And sometimes we can see behavior as seemingly
erratic and unpredictable when it makes perfect sense
(15:58):
to the dog with what's going on inside
a dog's body that we don't often have
insight to without doing a lot of invasive
tests and diagnostics to find out what's going
on.
I just sent a client, a brand new
client of mine to their veterinarian so that
we could get some extensive x-rays going
(16:18):
on and maybe start a pain med trial
and things like that.
Because I have some suspicions that we should
be looking in this direction.
And after speaking with their vet, they quite
agree that this is definitely something we should
be looking into.
And that was something that Flash taught me.
He taught me to look here first.
(16:38):
And I do believe that we are staying
in our lanes when we are working with
the veterinary teams to be able to do
this, as long as we are working with
veterinary teams to be doing this stuff.
And we are not diagnosing, we are not
doing anything.
But it is in fact, within our lane
to go within our wheelhouse to go, hey,
something doesn't look to be something is not
going right in your dog's behavior.
(17:00):
And in my history, in my experience, we
have seen this linked to pain.
We know there are studies linking XYZ to
pain if there are studies, etc, etc, etc.
To for this particular type of pain, you
know, that's what I'm saying.
I know there are studies out there generally
and whatnot.
But we and as long as we are
(17:22):
working within our wheelhouse to help a veterinarian
diagnose something, then yeah, sure, we are we
are working within our lane, but it is
not our job to do the diagnosing.
It is not our job to do the
suspecting, things like that.
But we do have to look into it
as a dissent and antecedent.
And so that's kind of where it hit
me there of everything has context, including pain
(17:47):
that is resultant of potential behavior, sorry, behavior
that is resultant on potential pain.
And just for the listeners, whom a large
percentage of and not everyone, but you the
listener, you might fall into the segment of
our animal training can be podcast listenership slice
(18:08):
of the pie.
You're out there working with clients and your
job, therefore, is to, in the perfect world,
I know that before I say that people
are living in certain geographical locations where this
becomes a little bit harder to do.
(18:28):
And it can take time to build up
relationships based on adding people to your air
quotes team that not only have the expertise
and skill to diagnose something like pain, but
also that you as an individual human learner
(18:51):
have a relationship, get along well with and
can work in an effective collaboration with just
because someone's a behavior vet doesn't mean that
you and them are a good team in
terms of your communication styles, et cetera, et
(19:13):
cetera.
And so tell us with a flash of
brilliance, Adam, your dog training business, got that
right?
Yeah.
Are you out there working with clients with
aggression?
I'm working with clients who display aggressive behaviors,
like their dogs display aggressive behaviors towards other
dogs, and then also dogs who display aggression
(19:35):
towards their own owners, though that tends to
be my wheelhouse.
And you have this unique position in terms
of having gone through what you went through
with flash.
I'm assuming things about you, so let's check
that my assumptions are correct.
Like you have people in your network, locally
(19:57):
behavior vets, veterinarians that you've built these relationships
with that you can lean on, that you
can ask for help for me.
And so the reason I ask this is
because we have a lot of listeners and
I make this assumption again, based on our
membership and within our membership, excuse me, we
(20:19):
have online community and within that online community,
people can pose their questions.
And I would say one we get frequently
is, you know, I have this behavior issue
and I don't know what to do.
And our community, our helpful community members will
jump in and say, hey, you should likely
talk to a veterinary professional who specializes in
(20:43):
behavior.
And the person might say, in my country,
that's not something that's easily accessible or we
don't have one in our geographical area.
And so one is that and then two,
it becomes really hard for the client because
the client's like, yo, solve my problem.
And, you know, I've got a high risk
(21:03):
situation because this dog is using behaviors that
we label as aggression to get what it
needs.
But they don't understand the benefit of veterinary
behaviorists, they've talked to their vet and their
vet's like, nah, it's fine, you know, and
no disrespect to those vets, but there's potentially
missing that specialization.
(21:24):
What do you have to say to the
listeners in terms of navigating this?
You might be in a place where you've
got your team, that's great.
But I know that there's a large proportion
who haven't built that yet or don't know
how to communicate with clients who may put
up some resistance to what our listeners can
(21:46):
clearly see is a need for that perspective
to either rule it in or rule it
out.
Absolutely.
So I was once in that position where
I didn't know where to go and what
to do and how to build this network.
And I leaned really heavily on my network
of other really good, competent trainers who know
(22:09):
better, who have been doing this longer than
me and who also do this type of
training, this holistic approach really, really, really, really
well.
I lean on them and ask them for
their opinions on people.
I have asked Kiki Ablon for information on
veterinary behaviorists that she trusts in the Chicagoland
(22:30):
area, for example.
I have a veterinary behaviorist in Maine now
who I really like to talk to.
I met at a workshop one day and
we just got to talking.
And so now I really like who they
are as a person.
Our communication styles match up.
I really love their wheelhouse of knowledge and
(22:52):
they are really, really well connected with other
specialties within the hospitals that they work in
and then other places.
So this one veterinary behaviorist is in Maine
and I send all my local people here
in Massachusetts up there within a three hour
driving distance.
I love being able to talk to her.
(23:13):
I like sitting in on these sessions.
If both the veterinary behaviorists and the client
allow, I can sit and I can zoom
in and listen and hear what is going
on.
And if there is something that I can
clarify on, I can do that if the
time and space allows for it, things like
that.
And then I also recommend talking to your
(23:33):
own vets as much as possible.
So if you have a problem and you're
not quite sure, your vet says everything seems
to be fine, things like that, I would
maybe send in an email, something that they
can take their time to mull over and
be like, hey, this is what I'm seeing.
This is why I went to this community
(23:56):
of trainers to ask about it.
And this is why they seem to be
saying to talk to a veterinarian about it.
This is what we think we're looking for.
What are your thoughts on that?
If this is something you're not comfortable doing,
do you have someone you can refer us
to so that we can do some of
these stuff?
Usually, I have had really, really, really, really
(24:19):
good luck with veterinarians, even those who don't
always believe in what I have to say.
As long as I am open, kind, making
sure that I am staying in my lane
and not being pompous about it, things like
that, we are asking them to double check
their work.
It would behoove us to be kind about
(24:39):
it.
It would behoove us to be nice about
it.
And it would behoove us to be professional
about it as well.
So that is how I have built up
my network, is by talking to my veterinarians,
seeing what they have to say, listening to
other veterinarians in Facebook groups here and there
and everywhere, listening to what other trainers in
(25:00):
my cabinet, in my list of trusted trainers
see who they have worked with and really
like, and utilizing my network of people.
So if you don't have a network of
people, it's time to build one.
And I will be happy to be part
of that network of people.
And one other bit, and I'm thinking of
a specific case now, which is why I
(25:20):
want to push a little bit more, because
I know that the individual I'm thinking of
has a network.
I mean, they've got, it's arrogant when I
say this, but I don't mean it like
that.
They've got me and therefore they've got access
to Animal Training Academy and therefore they've got
access to community.
And still they're dealing with a client who's,
(25:42):
excuse me, is resistant to exactly what we're
talking about, getting a pain med trial, for
example, going and the individual non-human learner
in question might be euthanized because of behavior
issues.
And this is a large emotional toll on
(26:03):
this trainer.
And we all know that this is a
hard industry to navigate in, whether you're a
dog trainer, especially if you're a veterinary professional,
whether you work in the zoo context, is
there's so much more to dog training and
animal training than training.
One of those is dealing with situations like
the one I've just described.
(26:23):
So that's going to be part of it
as well.
Do you have anything to share on that
component of this issue we're talking about?
Yeah, I'm curious.
Is it the client themselves that is opposed
to checking things out medically or is it
their veterinarian?
So that is where I would parse things
out a little bit.
My understanding of the situation, which may be
(26:45):
wrong, and if you listen to the show
and you think, oh, maybe Ryan's talking about
me, firstly, appreciate that we have a great
relationship and that I can do that.
Secondly, my understanding is that, and I say
this, all of that, because maybe I don't
have the exact details correct, is that the
veterinary has been consulted.
(27:07):
The veterinary is not somebody who, within our
New Zealand framework, has that behavioural specialist component
of the products that they offer, basically, or
the clinic that they work in, whatever it
might be for this individual.
And therefore, this person, without having that credential
(27:29):
within the New Zealand region, which is different
than other parts of the world, has said
everything's OK.
And so there's the suggestion that that's great,
but there's potential value in bringing in other
professionals who do have this credential.
And that's where the friction is.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, it makes a lot of sense.
(27:50):
And I'm wondering if we can get curious
with the veterinarian on hand and ask if
they would be willing to do a vet
-to-vet consult, for example.
That might be something that we could work
on.
And they can communicate with a veterinarian somewhere
in the world, over via Zoom, Google Meet,
somehow, to just have a discussion about the
(28:11):
case about this dog, have a consultation, and
just go to town, see what this professional
who does have the credentials might show that
they need.
Hey, we could be using an X-ray,
we could use an MRI, we could use
all of this.
And then if that stuff is available for
the client or for the veterinarian to help
(28:33):
with the client to get, that would be
the ideal world.
And sometimes, unfortunately, we just live in situations
that aren't the ideal world.
I know I myself will be soon dropping
this bombshell on this podcast when I haven't
even mentioned it to the world yet.
But I will be myself moving to a
(28:54):
country where I will be having very limited
health care for my animals.
And I am trying to decide how I
am going to handle this in my own
mind, because I don't know.
I don't know how I'm going to navigate
this new path.
So I will have better personal insight to
a question like this in a few months,
potentially.
(29:15):
But yeah, bringing in other potential professionals on
a call could be helpful, something like that,
if we can, if they are open to
it.
Yeah, and I just want to, just a
thought just crossed my mind, and I think
it's an important one to add, and I
would invite your perspective or any thoughts you
(29:37):
have on this for that individual, or if
you're a listener of the show, might find
yourself in similar situations.
And I'm sure if you do this long
enough, you will find yourself in situations that
share at least some similarities with what we've
just talked about, the importance of looking after
yourself in that space.
So I just wanted to add that and
(29:57):
invite any comments from you before we move
on, Adam.
Oh, it's so important to take care of
yourself.
And that's sometimes half my job.
Have you done a cortisol reset on yourself
lately?
I think finding balance is where it's really
at.
So I am from the Middle East.
(30:19):
I am a Muslim.
And one of the teachings that we have
been raised with, at least that I have
been raised with, is that the greatest of
two nations is the most moderate between them.
And what that just means is moderation is
key, balance is key.
All of that is key, including in all
aspects of life.
(30:40):
And so if we are getting to the
point where we are burning ourselves out to
care for our dog, to the point where
we are unable to recover from that, that's
not OK either.
So we have to be taking care of
ourselves.
We need to fill our own cups before
we can fill anyone else's cups.
And I think in this particular, like in
a case that is so big and heavy
(31:02):
such as this, I really want to prioritize
that almost more than anything else.
And so if continuing through is hard, if
it's too hard, if it's too much, then
the decisions that the owners of these dogs,
of this dog, depending on if the decision
is euthanasia, then I think that is a
(31:25):
very good decision for them, too.
It's so hard to make.
It's so hard to do.
And it's not my place to say one
way or the other, obviously.
So, yeah, we have Juliana D Willems on
the show.
Nice.
Depending on when they get released, they might
be the episodes previous to this or they
might be coming out after.
(31:47):
But we talked about therapy and she bravely
shared that she went to therapy.
And that just floated into my mind as
you were talking then, the benefit of therapy.
I feel like we all need therapy.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah.
Therapy helps me every single day in every
aspect of my life.
And I actually speak with someone on a
(32:09):
less regular basis now, but for a while
there on a fairly regular basis who specializes
in dogs and feelings around dogs and stuff
like that, her name is Andrea Harrison.
She's based in Canada.
She does a lot of work with kids.
(32:29):
She does a lot of work with people
and their feelings.
She does a lot of stuff like that.
And I first took a course with her
through Fenzie Dog Sports Academy called Love the
One You Are With.
And it was hard.
It was the hardest dog training course I've
ever taken.
And it was basically therapy.
And I learned to accept Flash, who is
(32:52):
the dog I took it with.
I learned to accept him for who he
is and meet him where he's at instead
of wishing him into being someone else.
I took the teachings from that course and
I passed them along to my clients.
I am a huge fan of the Burnout
book by the Nagoski sisters.
(33:13):
That has been a huge help for me.
I also try to implement it with my
clients.
I think closing the stress cycle and being
aware of those stress cycles and how emotions
can run through us is really, really important.
And I think the Nagoski sisters do a
really good job of describing those things in
very digestible ways for the average person.
(33:35):
So I really lean heavily on that book.
Amazing, I haven't heard of those people in
that book before.
So thank you for that.
I want to circle back to, first I
just want to acknowledge that in 2025, I
think every podcast we do, people mention others
whom have been impactful on their work.
(33:57):
If we were to give an award for
the most mentions in 2025 so far, I
think that would go to Kiki Yblanc.
I think she's mentioned in every episode, so
shout out to Kiki, we love her.
Go Kiki!
The other thing you mentioned that was really
important that you learned from your time with
(34:20):
Flash of the million stories you could tell
was meeting his needs in an appropriate context.
Do you want to talk to that a
little bit more, what you mean by that
and what that specifically looked like, build on
what you've already said, what that specifically looked
like for Flash?
Yeah, so specifically his social needs, that is
(34:42):
something that I spent the longest time parsing
through what that looked like for him.
He started his life out, I was a
dog walker when he came into my life
and I also ran through that same company.
I helped run a playgroup and so it
was all our dogs in our own private
(35:02):
dog park, like we knew everything that was
going on, the ins and outs, it was
a pretty well run playgroup with a good
ratio.
I really appreciated it.
And he came to work with me almost
every day.
And so he got a lot of his
big, boisterous boxer adolescent feelings out by playing
(35:23):
with all these other big, boisterous adolescent dogs.
Some of them were older and they taught
him what's why and he listened.
Boy, did he listen.
He was really good at that.
And he also got to play with a
bunch of young dogs just like him.
And he ran and he ran and he
(35:43):
played and he never learned what it looked
like to just take a break.
And so he was your typical, as they
say, daycare dog.
He only knew how to play big and
boisterous and he did not understand what calming
signals look like.
He did not understand what it was when
(36:04):
another dog needed a break from him.
He did not understand how to tell another
dog he needed a break.
He lacked all those skills, essentially, that he
needed.
And so through the help, like with the
help of Sarah Strumming and with the help
of other trainers local to me and my
network trainers, such as like they're all smaller
(36:27):
named trainers than that.
But like people like Connor Kingfisher, people like
Ranca, their name is skipping me at this
moment.
But anyway, I'll get back to that.
But anyway, through the help of everybody, we
were able to kind of remedially socialize Flash.
(36:47):
I think it was Strumming that coined that
phrase remedial socialization.
And we essentially taught him through the use,
through the use, through the like facilitative learning
of older, much more appropriate dogs who were
good with other dogs, unbothered by other dogs,
appropriate with their communication styles with other dogs.
(37:09):
Using them, we were able to help Flash
learn to develop those skills on his own
as well.
So first it started out with really, really
savvy dogs and their handlers and owners.
And then it turned into as my skills
grew and my observation skills and knowledge into
me taking out dogs for social outings as
(37:32):
well.
So for adventure hikes, things like that.
And I called it a remedial socialization program
where I took all these dogs with all
these big feelings, learning how to interact with
each other and help them learn to interact
with each other.
By the end of this, Flash turned into
I call him my chief remedial socialization officer.
He he was the dog who if I
(37:54):
wanted to know if a dog was going
to make it at all in this program,
he would be the first dog I introduced
them to.
He would tell me this dog has what
it takes or not.
And he would tell me pretty immediately.
He was very good at just sizing them
up in that moment.
I remember one day I brought a Shiba
Inu to our group for the first time
(38:14):
ever.
And she was such a kitty cat.
I loved her and he was so excited
to meet her because he loved this particular
group of dogs.
He loved how boisterous and how energetic they
were.
And he ran right over to the Shiba,
got right up to her, took one look
at her and backed away slowly.
(38:34):
He knew that she did not want to
be messed with and he did not bother
her.
And he, in fact, helped facilitate other dogs
not bothering her.
So if he saw two dogs playing, getting
a little too close into our space, he
would kind of come in between them a
little bit and create space, give her an
opportunity to move away.
He did a lot of really good looking
(38:55):
out for the group that I didn't know
how to do at my on my own.
And it was only through watching him do
it that I was able to figure it
out for myself and learn how to do
it, if that's really cool.
So that's what I mean when I say
like he was one of my greatest teachers.
A lot of the stuff that I know
is truly just because watching him helped me
(39:19):
understand what I was seeing.
It sounds like an amazing journey.
So thank you for allowing us that window
into what can't adequately help us understand the
journey you guys have been on together.
But give us a small window into it.
In your work now, how much would you
(39:41):
say, and I want to talk about this
a little bit, and exciting opportunities that are
coming up that are linked to this in
some capacity.
Your Karen Pryor Academy certified training partner, having
been through that program myself, I therefore appreciate
the level of skill and competency and knowledge
(40:02):
that you have.
You're also a Certified Control Unleashed instructor.
And I say that with great admiration and
excitement about that program and wanting to engage
in the future myself.
Can you share a little bit with our
listeners about what being a Certified Control Unleashed
(40:22):
instructor involves?
Absolutely.
So that just means Leslie McDevitt oversaw my
work and saw that I know what I'm
doing in terms of understanding and teaching the
pattern games and other core concepts of Control
Unleashed to other people, to a group of
(40:42):
people, and also to dogs.
So I was able to demonstrate that for
her, for her to certify me as a
Control Unleashed instructor.
I'm also one of the TAs for this
program.
So I help mentor people who are coming
into the program to become certified.
And what that involves is just reviewing video,
(41:03):
asking questions, understanding depth of knowledge, sending them
in the right direction if they need a
little bit more work on this particular thing
or another, you know, things like that.
And how this applies in my work is
that I, having worked under Leslie and working
with her so closely, I work with her
on a regular basis.
(41:26):
I am able to take the concepts, ask
her the questions.
I'm very glad that I have that, that
access to her to ask her, like, what
were you thinking when you created this particular
thing?
And then I can get the core concepts
from those games, the core key components of
them and then apply them elsewhere.
So that is how I used Requested Approach
(41:50):
Training, RAT, to help Flash navigate the trial
environment when he decided that the crating areas
were a little too rough on him and
it was hard for him to walk that
gauntlet of crates barking at him and everything.
So we started using Requested Approach Training.
I had him hold an object in his
(42:10):
mouth for as long as he felt comfortable
moving through the space.
And if he dropped it or asked me
to take it from him, we would either
retreat or stay, kind of put where we
were if it was safe enough.
But he always knew as long as he
was carrying that thing, he was headed to
his crate and in his crate was a
snuffle mat.
And so he said, I can do that.
(42:31):
And so that's how I started out with
Control Unleashed, was using this, at the time,
very new concept.
I think this was back in 2019, pretty
new concept of Requested Approach Training to do
this fairly complex piece of of behavior work
with him in terms of the crating areas
and trials.
(42:52):
I like using Control Unleashed as both management
and a kind of operant counter-conditioning protocol
or tool.
I love using them when I am stuck
in a, like literally stuck in a place
(43:12):
and I cannot move for triggers all around
me and my dogs.
I like throwing in an up-down pattern
game, for example.
I like throwing in a one-two-three
to help dogs get through scary situations.
I have done a webinar twice now for
Clean Run called See You and the City,
(43:33):
Control Unleashed and the City, and it's all
about how I used Control Unleashed to help
Flash, who was terrified of the city, learn
to feel more comfortable in his own skin.
I never got him to poop in the
city, but I got him to pee in
the city, and that's a huge accomplishment.
I'm actually going to be, I work so
(43:54):
closely with Leslie, I'm going to be working
with her in the future again.
I'm currently working with her on a project
that we are going to be presenting for
everyone at the Aggression and Dogs Conference in
Charlotte, North Carolina, later this year in late
September.
So I'm very much looking forward to that.
(44:15):
It'll be my first conference of that size
for me to speak at.
I am only a little nervous and a
whole lot of excited because I know I
have Leslie on stage with me and we
will, she will cover me, she will cover
me where I can't, where I start losing
it.
I know that.
But we are excited to bring topics to
(44:37):
you that have been near and dear to
our heart in this past year.
We will be talking about decompression cues and
kind of more functional reinforcement and how to,
you know, include Control Unleashed in some of
that and how we can make it look
a little bit different for different dogs and
help them just enter a calmer state of
(44:59):
mind.
Well, congratulations on that.
I mean, when you say it'll be my
first conference of that size, I would hazard
to say it's one of the North America
most, well, with regards to our audience, you
know, again, this podcast listeners, I hypothesize who
(45:21):
you are because I don't know you personally.
I wish I did.
That'd be amazing.
Based on our membership, based on our members,
based on what they post in our community.
And I know Michael Shikashio's Aggression in Dogs
conference is a big conference, a big event
in the calendar year.
So it's your first conference of that size,
(45:43):
but what a size.
I mean, what a way to be recognized
and appreciated and to do that and to
get the and to do that next to
Leslie McDivitt.
I mean, that's amazing.
Congratulations.
Thank you.
What even is my life?
And I'm so grateful to Michael Shikashio for
giving me this opportunity.
It's going to be it's going to be
(46:04):
so cool.
I am so excited.
I just hope I don't have to picture
people in their underwear to feel more comfortable.
I've never actually done that.
Have you done that?
I don't think it actually works.
I can't see how it would work.
(46:26):
Like I wouldn't like when I'm presenting, I
want to be focused on what I'm presenting.
I just feel like that would make that
really challenging.
I don't see how that would help.
That's what I found to help me better
is to actually know the material I am
speaking on.
(46:47):
Quick note for those who are listening, you
might want to go and see you in
person at the conference or they might want
to watch you online because I know that
there's multiple opportunities and ways to attend that
event.
Can you remind us when it is?
(47:08):
And you'll just go to the Aggressive Dogs,
maybe you'll know more than me, website to
find all the links there.
Absolutely.
So if you go to AggressiveDog.com over
on the top right corner, it'll say conference
and that will give you all the details
that you need.
It's going to be in Charlotte, North Carolina,
September 26th through the 28th.
(47:30):
So that's a Friday through a Sunday.
And there are two tracks.
There's a live in-person track and then
there's also a live stream option.
Both are still available.
But I know Michael was saying that in
-person tickets will be selling out soon.
(47:53):
So if you are in the U.S.
or can make it to the conference and
want to, I definitely recommend that you go
ahead and purchase those tickets as quickly as
you can.
And if going in person is not an
option, but you still would like access, you
can live stream, you get access to the
(48:15):
recordings.
I believe it is for a year after
the fact.
You are going to hear some pretty awesome
speakers such as Kim Brophy, Sarah Fisher, Trish
McMillan, Andre Yu is going, Leslie McDevitt as
well.
Yeah, amazing.
(48:35):
Well, thank you for sharing so much about
that.
Big shout out to Mr. Shikashi Yo for
his ripples.
I think we're nearing the end of people's
drives on their way to their consults or
the end of their dog walks.
So let's wrap up this for part one
of our conversation today.
Adam, we are going to invite Adam back
(48:57):
to talk about the art and science of
animal training in part two.
But before we officially wrap up, can you
just share with everyone where they can go
online to find out more about you, what
you do and get in touch?
Absolutely.
You can find me at flashofbrilliancedogs.com or
you can find me on Facebook looking under
(49:19):
Adam Scandarani.
I'm sure we'll link everything in the show
notes.
Instagram, you can find me at Flash of
Brilliance Dogs.
I am one of those people who has
an Instagram page for each of my dogs.
So if you want to follow any specific
dog's journey, you are more than welcome to
follow one of them.
You can find them from my business Instagram
(49:39):
page.
So I have to ask one more thing
before we wrap up, Adam, because I can't
even manage my own Instagram account, let alone
multiple.
What is your secret?
Way more time on my hands than I
actually need.
It's all part of, in reality, it's all
(50:01):
part of my business marketing stuff.
So if I'm sitting down to do a
post for Flash of Brilliance, I'm sitting down
to do a post for one of the
other dogs too.
Amazing.
Well, I look at people like you and
awe and wish that I could have the
required variables in my life to make that
(50:22):
happen.
But this has been so much fun, Adam,
on behalf of myself and everyone listening, we
really appreciate you coming on part one of
our conversation today.
Thank you so much.
Thank you for having me.
It's been a pleasure and I can't wait
to be back.
And thank you so much for listening as
well.
This is your host, Ryan Cartlidge, signing off
(50:44):
from this episode of the Animal Training Academy
podcast show.
We hope today's conversation inspired you and equipped
you with new tools for your trainer's toolbox.
Remember, every challenge in training is an opportunity
to learn and sharpen your animal training geekery.
(51:05):
Embrace the rough patches, learn from them and
keep improving.
And don't forget, the path to growing your
skills and expanding your knowledge continues beyond this
episode.
Visit www.atamember.com to join our supportive
membership where you will find a community of
(51:28):
trainers just like you.
Together, we're making a huge positive difference in
the lives of animal and human learners worldwide.
Until next time, keep honing your skills, stay
awesome and remember every interaction with an animal
or human learner is your opportunity to create
(51:50):
ripples.
We're here cheering you on every step of
the way.
See you at the next episode.
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