July 14, 2025 • 55 mins
In the second part of our conversation with Juliana DeWillems - Certified Dog Behavior Consultant, faculty member at the Karen Pryor Academy, and author of Manage It! - we dive headfirst into a topic often overlooked in our industry: management.
Juliana unpacks why management is more than just a stopgap solution and how it can serve as a powerful, proactive, and compassionate tool for behavior change. Drawing from the content of her book and years of hands-on experience, Juliana walks us through how antecedent arrangement, environmental adjustments, and unmet needs shape the behaviors we see - and how thoughtful management can help create real change for animals and their guardians.
Throughout this episode, we explore:
✅ What “management” really means - and how to define it across different audiences
✅ The relationship between antecedents, behavior, and long-term success
✅ Why management is not “just a band-aid,” but often the most ethical, effective choice
✅ Practical talking points for trainers when advocating for management strategies with clients
✅ How embracing simplicity and going “back to basics” can clear the fog and enhance outcomes
Whether you're brand new to training or a seasoned professional, Juliana’s thoughtful insights offer a refreshing look at how sometimes the simplest strategies are the most impactful. This episode reminds us that behavior is always happening - and it’s our job to make the environment work for everyone involved.
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(00:03):
Welcome to the Animal Training Academy podcast show.
I'm your host, Ryan Carledge, and I'm passionate
about helping you master your animal training skills
using the most positive and least intrusive approaches.
Here at ATA, we understand that navigating the
vast challenges you encounter in training requires a
(00:27):
comprehensive base of knowledge and experience.
It's common to face obstacles and rough patches
on your journey that can leave you feeling
overwhelmed and stressed.
Therefore, since 2015, we have been on a
mission to empower animal training geeks worldwide.
We've aided thousands in developing their skills, expanding
(00:51):
their knowledge, boosting their confidence and maximizing their
positive impact on all the animal and human
learners they work with.
We are excited to do the same for
you.
Simply visit www.atamember.com, join our vibrant
(01:11):
community and geek out with us.
And of course, in the meantime, enjoy this
free podcast episode as we explore new ways
to help you supercharge your training skills, grow
your knowledge and build your confidence so that
you can craft a life that positively impacts
(01:32):
every learner you encounter.
But we will get started on this episode
where I am super excited to welcome back
to the show for part two of our
conversation, the awesome Juliana de Willems.
If you haven't listened to the first part
(01:54):
of our conversation, you can find it in
the previous episode on whatever app you're listening
to the show on.
In that episode, we explored Juliana's journey in
getting started with positive reinforcement animal training and
what led her to her current work as
social media extraordinaire and co-host of Delightful
(02:17):
on the Ranch, monthly live broadcast with Kendra
Meris, amongst a whole bunch of other things.
If you haven't listened to it yet, you
are of course, welcome to just hang out
with us and start here with part two,
where you're still going to gain plenty of
insights to help you grow your skills, knowledge,
and confidence in animal training.
Juliana, welcome back.
And thanks so much for coming to hang
(02:38):
out with us again at Animal Training Academy.
Thank you, Ryan.
I'm very happy to be here again.
Well, let's dive straight into this one.
I'm excited to talk about management today.
I don't think we've done a whole podcast
episode in 260 episodes, whatever we're up to
now, specifically on management.
(03:04):
I've lent into dedicating this one to that,
because you've recently written a book recommended by
Kendra Meris called Manage It, Hacks for Improving
Your Dog's Behavior.
Tell us about this, Juliana.
How did this book come about?
This book came about because I, one, said,
(03:25):
hmm, maybe I should try writing a book.
And then I thought, what would I, what
would I write about?
And I thought, wait a second, I love
management and no one has ever written a
whole book on management before or yet.
Right.
Exactly.
When that's what, and you know, when you're
like, we haven't done a whole, that's usually
the sentiment is like, oh, we talk about
(03:46):
it or it's mentioned, but we haven't really
like done a deep dive into it.
And I, yeah, basically wrote the book that
I wanted to see in the world.
Cause I just feel really strongly it's an
excellent resource for pet parents.
And I think it's a really helpful, I
don't know, technique, whatever you want to call
it.
Hopefully we'll define it in a second for
dog trainers and pet trainers as well.
(04:07):
Yeah.
Well let's go there then, let's define management.
And it makes me curious.
Do you have different definitions of it?
If you're talking to different audiences, if you're
talking to your general, I don't like this
word, but for lack of a better word
at the moment, layman pet parent versus pet
(04:28):
professionals, do you modify the definition somewhat depending
on the audience?
For both audiences, I would say the general
definition of management is just manipulating the environment
to increase or decrease certain behaviors from occurring.
And the only way I might tweak that
for somebody who understands the science of learning
and behavior would to say, would be to
(04:49):
say using antecedent arrangement to increase or decrease
the likelihood of behaviors occurring, but antecedent arrangement
and environment are pretty interchangeable.
And so I think either definition really captures
what management is.
Yeah.
It makes me contemplate, we're not what my
definition of training for the audience of people
(05:12):
who are there specifically to learn from me
about training and a distinction I make personally,
and not saying there's any right or wrong
to anyone else, it's just differently.
I just have clarity when I'm teaching people
what I mean when I say terms.
And so training being defined in that context,
I just described as the intentional and strategic
(05:32):
setting up of antecedents and consequences to modify
behavior, which sounds really similar to what you're
saying.
Manipulating the environment to change behavior.
However, with regards to the definition you offer
pet pro professionals or animal training professionals, if
you're not working with pets is a large
focus on the antecedent component of our ABCs.
(05:55):
Yep, exactly.
Where like you mentioned training, and I think
a lot of us, especially as positive reinforcement
trainers, when I first went and started learning
about positive reinforcement, we put so much emphasis
on the C on the consequence.
And then of course, as you learn, you
realize how important the antecedent arrangement is in
influencing the behavior.
And so you learn about the importance of
(06:16):
both.
And yes, I think management essentially puts most
of the focus on changing the environment where
of course behaviors happen and then consequences happen,
but management is really increasing or decreasing the
behaviors that you're seeing through the antecedents.
And from where I'm sitting, and this is
also super helpful for professionals though, for professionals
(06:38):
working with animal training, not necessarily pets for
various reasons, because one, the listeners of the
show, our audience, we just love geeking out
about animal training too, because we can always
learn more about anything, including management.
Even if the ideas might not be new
to us, there's always such huge value in
(06:59):
my personal opinion and hearing things worded in
different ways.
And I think knowing the specific content of
resources like the one you have made gives
people doing consults, something else to reach for
and to recommend and social provide for pet
(07:19):
owners.
If they have clients that this would benefit
and like to absorb and if their clients
like to absorb information in this way, I
know not all clients like to be given
homework and handed a book and said, you
need to read this.
They'd be like, I didn't sign up for
this, but for those clients who are inclined
(07:40):
to want to learn more and would benefit
from having resources.
I know a lot of people just want
resources, like they want to be able to
lean on things.
So I think there's a huge benefit for
obviously the pet owners that the book's targeted
at, but for the reasons I've suggested and
potentially more, the book is a really great
(08:01):
resource for pet professionals as well.
Are these things that you kind of thought
about?
Do you want to add anything else to
that?
Thank you.
Yes, totally.
The book is definitely geared towards the average
person with a dog.
I think there's a huge need for the
public to learn about management and understand it.
And within the book, I was able to,
man, what a great opportunity to just like
(08:22):
put all my thoughts in one place about
what I feel about behavior and share the
science and share why management, while it does
decrease behavior, it is not the same as
punishment, which we can talk about.
And why you sort of like if you
have options between the two management can be,
you know, better for your dog or for
(08:44):
your pet.
And so I was able to educate about
the science of learning and what management is.
And I even, you know, got to sneak
in a whole chapter about like enrichment and
meeting your dog's needs.
So I really got, I packed a lot
of really helpful information.
The book is really split into two parts.
The first third is again kind of talking
about learning and dog behavior and dog needs
(09:07):
and how to approach behavior with your dog.
And then the second two thirds, second and
thirds thirds are chapter by chapter going through
different behavior challenges and explaining different management options.
So we've got like barking inside, barking on
your deck, barking at triggers on walks, chewing
(09:30):
stuff in your house, loosely walking, coming when
called we've like a miscellaneous chapter.
We have a puppy's chapter.
We have I essentially made it so that
you can educate yourself about how dogs learn
and what, how to approach their behavior.
And then if you needed to, you could
just slip flip to the chapter that you
want.
(09:50):
That would be most helpful to you.
Although I have heard of people saying they
wanted to read additional chapters to get more
ideas, but yes, it's definitely for pet guardians
and it should be a really helpful resource
for your clients.
And I think there's so much to talk
about from a behavior analysis perspective of what
exactly is management in the ABCs.
What, when we are manipulating the antecedents, what
(10:11):
exactly is happening?
So there's tons to talk about in both
directions.
Yeah.
And I feel like this is the antecedent
part is something that just yesterday, you know,
coming up to 20 years of doing this,
I was a student of, and that is
(10:33):
I've been working on a trick title, my
cat Tilo, just a novice one, but for
about five years, because sometimes I might go
three or four months before between training sessions,
just because that's what my life has looked
like with my young family.
And so anyway, I've managed to train, I
(10:54):
think three times this week, which is like
unheard of.
Crazy.
I thought I'd have a crack at training
the selfie behavior.
So that means that you kind of sit
down and the cat comes up behind you,
puts two feet on your shoulder and looks
at the camera, right?
You get a good selfie.
And I thought, okay, cool.
I will train the cat to target it's
(11:17):
two front paws to something elevated and kind
of like transfer that station to my shoulders.
Cause I just had a trial session and
the cat had no idea what I just
tried to lure it on there.
It's getting all confused and going all over
the place.
So anyway, I had a session two days
ago and the cat was putting his paws
on the station and the station was elevated
a little bit and like it was doing
reliably.
(11:38):
And then went in yesterday and the cat
kind of like just came up and like
sat down in front of the little station
instead of me.
But it just made me realize like how
reinforced that behavior is.
Like the environment for that cat is saying
what works here is sitting down in front
of dad and looking at dad.
I'm assuming cause I don't know what the
(11:59):
cat's thinking.
Cause dad's going to provide me with more
information and then I can get some like
yummy treats.
Right.
And I'm like, ah, that's my bad.
Like, you know, I've set this up so
that when we're training in my office, like
that is what the cat does.
Um, and so I'm like to use Dr.
(12:19):
Jesus Rosales Ruiz's words on fighting extinction there.
Right.
I'm saying like, don't do what works for
you.
Don't do what the environment is telling you
to do.
Do something else instead.
And like, why would the cat do that?
Right.
And that's what we mean antecedent position.
Um, all of that's a long winded way
to say, like, um, I feel that it's
(12:42):
something, as you said, we focus on the
consequence part that we just often overlook.
Um, and that, and you said it, I
think you said in your book that you
talk about meeting the dog's needs and enrichment.
Um, and so those, those parts are I
think powerful tools that we as an industry,
(13:06):
uh, can leverage more.
Uh, and so I think that bleeds into
the reason why you wrote this book.
And your thoughts kind of similar to mine
in there.
Have I kind of really long windedly summed
that up?
Well, so one, like my, when I finally
connected the dots and had this like moment
of how much they influence the environment influences
(13:27):
behavior, my head was like blown, which I
know feels like, you know, behavior analysis 101.
And I, I like sheepishly admit that this
was years and years into my career as
a dog trainer.
Like I understood, I understood like, you know,
we, I think we talk about it a
lot under the guise of like, or under
the, like set your dog up for success.
(13:49):
Like we all try to set our dogs
up for success and you set your dog
up first.
I set for success by thinking about what
can I do in this situation to help
them be successful.
And a lot of us are naturally doing
antecedent arrangement there.
And then when I really realized where the
environment and the antecedents influence behavior, because like
(14:10):
without antecedents, there is no behavior, the, you
know, that's the antecedents.
And which is, by the way, part of
management, there are many different ways to manipulate
antecedents.
And one way to one form of management
is to just eliminate the antecedent and take
it off the table.
Because if there is no antecedent slash Q,
(14:30):
there is no behavior.
But I, yeah, that, that relationship is very
empowering to understand even something as simple as
like, if you walk on one side of
the street with your dog versus the other
side of the street, you're going to get
different behavior because there are different conditions happening.
There are different antecedents, depending on where you're
walking.
(14:51):
And the actually, interestingly, the chapter that I
have about meeting needs and enrichment and stuff
like that, it was the chapter where I
was like, you can't manage your way out
of like meeting your dog's needs.
So, which I wanted to make it very
clear, like management, yes, as a bandaid for
behavior problems, in my opinion is that's not
a problem generally, but we can't like bandaid
(15:13):
a dog who is like under enriched and
unfulfilled and that type of thing.
That being said, enrichment falls under the distant
antecedent category and potentially motivating operations or abolishing
operations for behavior that can show up later
that day or in that scenario.
(15:35):
And that's helpful to understand too, which is
also something that I'm like just slowly starting
to melt into my brain.
It's one of those things, you know, you're
a drug trainer for over a decade.
You're like, I've learned so much.
And then suddenly you find yourself as a
new learner, but wow, again, how empowering it
is to understand this.
So me thinking, I'm talking about this simple
topic of management has opened up this whole
(15:57):
new world of the antecedents in the environment
and the, the power that the environment has
on behavior.
I mean, it's everything.
Maybe just quickly for those who are listening
to this.
And also for those who are, just to
be those who are listening and maybe like
(16:17):
a little bit lost because they're like, why
is he saying abolishing or what?
They know.
Like, right.
And they're like, you're not, you're not in
a space where like the majority of people
don't understand that a lot of our listeners
are quite knowledgeable, but also like there are
some who are like, I don't want to
lose.
Cause I just want to make sure that
we clearly state what we're talking about.
(16:39):
So can you just like offer a few
definitions of some of the things we talked
about there?
Like why, why can't we, in your words,
why can't we bandaid something if we're not
meeting these, like just unpacked it a little
bit.
And then I think some terms you use
here of motivating operate, operate motivating operations, abolishing
operations, like, and this I'll take some of
(16:59):
those nerdy, slightly more nerdy terms for us.
Yeah.
And please Ryan, like jump in with your
expertise on this too, because again, I'm actually
like a very new learner on a lot
of these things where like, I might've seen
the topics or like, you know, Dr. Susan
Friedman's living and learning with animals course.
(17:20):
I certainly learned it then when I took
it back in 2017 came and went in
my brain, I'll tell you what, I felt
like I had never seen that term before
when it showed up a few years later.
Um, and then taking some of my, you
know, certification exams.
Like I, once upon a time, I thought
I had a grasp on these things and
I don't.
So the first part of your question, basically,
like if you have a dog who is
(17:41):
not getting enough exercise, it's not having any
outlets to be a dog and they're like
jumping on people or they're barking out the
windows and you're wanting to manage those behaviors,
you risk not making any progress with management
or making minimal progress with management because the
real issue is like your dog just needs
more your dog.
You need, you need to figure out ways
to meet their needs a little bit better
(18:02):
through whatever variety of enrichment and exercise and
training or whatever you choose.
And that management can help a lot of
things, but not a dog who is not
having their needs met.
And so, okay, let me make sure that
I can remember these definitions correctly, correctly.
Essentially there's like this from my understanding and
(18:24):
it like pains me to think that like
if Kiki ever Kiki Ablon ever listens to
this episode, Kiki is my like Susan Friedman.
She helps me so much with my behavior
analysis stuff.
Um, anyway, I'm putting this out on the
internet.
I could be wrong and I'm okay with
that.
So, um, motivating operations are essentially something that
increases the value of the reinforcer.
(18:46):
Uh, so for example, if the dog has
not had a meal in a long time,
that is going to make the value of
the food, um, increase and in abolishing operation
is going to have the opposite effect.
So say, for example, a dog is pulling
to get to a sniff and they, you
(19:07):
let them go get the sniff and they
get a sniff at all up.
The sniff is no longer valuable.
And so they no longer behave to access
the sniff.
I see you nodding your head.
So what do you think?
Was that, was that okay?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, firstly, uh, shout out to Kiki
cause she's awesome.
Um, secondly, I think, I think what this
(19:27):
conversation's, uh, helping me appreciate is that even
as professionals, like me with my cat yesterday,
we're like, afterwards I watched my video on
my cat training and I'm like, oh yeah,
the cat did this.
I didn't actually have a plan for like,
what I was going to do.
And the cat did what I wanted, didn't
want them.
(19:47):
And of course the cat's not going to
do what I wanted them to do.
Um, cause I didn't set the environment up
well.
Um, there's all these bits and pieces where
you're like, I could just like pay loads
of money for teaching this last week.
And like, there I go during the training
session myself.
And I'm like, didn't do any of that
stuff.
Um, so thanks for your vulnerability.
Um, and then also it made me contemplate
(20:08):
on some reflections recently where I was exploring
the dynamics of my relationship with another person
and, and some of the conversations and patterns
we get into.
And then, uh, always wanting to filter things
through an ABA lens, um, had the reflection
that everyone's behavior makes sense for them.
(20:30):
Otherwise they wouldn't do it.
Right.
And the only reason they're doing is cause
there's reinforcers there, but how often I forget
that in human interactions, right?
Because we suck, like I think personally anyway,
uh, at generalizing behavior, right?
So if you're working with another human learner
and you see things differently and you're using
words to discuss your different perspectives on the
(20:52):
same item, um, and you've got certain behaviors
associated with how you choose to discuss those
things.
Um, then that all makes sense to the
individual.
And like if it was a dog, you'd
be like, yeah, that's cool.
Like let's, um, do what we do as
professionals.
But if it's a human, you're like, I'm
so emotional and that you lose that.
(21:14):
And so anyway, the thing that's making me
appreciate it is we're talking about management and
we're talking about, um, my training materials today,
we're talking about terms we use.
Like I think it's easy to forget the
simple things sometimes and the disorientation of life.
Like, have you found that?
Like I feel like that's what you were
expressing, like writing this book has helped you
(21:36):
ground yourself and get somewhat in the antecedent.
Yeah.
And I think, you know, you, you've taken
so much information.
It's like what Ken says with, um, don't
shoot the dog.
Like every time he reads it, he's like,
how did that get in there?
You know, it's this, like you, you learn
something or you hear something and then you,
and then you hear the same exact thing
(21:57):
years later, but you have so much different
experience and so much different perspective.
So it just hits different.
And it totally, it totally shows up differently.
I mean, I remember the first time, like
I heard about like pattern games with control
and leash.
And I was like, when would I ever
use that baby trainer?
Like, you know, like little did she know.
(22:17):
And then years later I see the value
and how incredible, incredibly effective they can be
and helpful.
So you just, you things click differently.
And I feel like now after a decade,
I'm slowly starting to get this clearer grasp
on behavior.
Again, thanks to my wonderful colleagues.
You know, Kiki has shaped a lot of
my learning in the last couple of years,
(22:37):
but yeah, I think that there's just a
lot of input when you first become a
trainer and things do you just, they just
don't land in your brain the same way
that they might a few years later.
Yeah.
I think that's a really great, um, addition
and things to remember as well.
Uh, and that's, I think circles back to
(22:59):
one of the benefits I said for professionals,
reading your book is it helps center us
back and the basics as well.
Maybe because like two things, uh, firstly, Juliana,
like I started animal training Academy.
And then because we focus on behavior, you
know, coming from a decade of working as
an employee in zoos to starting a business
(23:22):
that focuses on behavior for all earthlings or
predominantly non-human, but that made 80%
of our pie dog trainers.
Right.
And so in turn the dog industry, and
that was a decade ago now, and not
knowing the dog industry, I just had my
(23:42):
glasses on my, my behavior analyst classes on,
right.
I was like, what's the incident?
What's the baby?
What's the key?
I don't know any of the baggage that's
in the dog industry.
Um, you know, I'm like, Oh, was that
the right thing to say baggage?
But I think people know what I mean.
I think, I think it's so important to
realize like the relationship that humans and dogs
(24:02):
have, like we totally bring baggage to the
training.
Yeah.
And, and so like, it was a really
interesting time to have conversations with people then.
Cause I'm like, what are you talking about?
Like, like the dogs doing this observable behavior
and the presence of this antecedent for this
concept.
And like, it was very simple.
As Karen Pryor says, it's just behavior.
(24:25):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So like there's, there's that, but I think
like, then the reading the book like that
now to bring it back to the antecedents,
like, I think it can help clear some
of the fog.
Like Susan Freedman's talks about cultural fog with
regards to like a lack of knowledge, but
I think they become some fog with regards
to opinions shared on social media, uh, and
(24:48):
culture that the science gets a backseat.
Yep.
Yep.
I am.
I am eagerly, uh, nodding my head.
Yeah, totally.
Uh, we make, we love making up stories
about dogs and why they behave the way
that they do.
And I mean that even of course, like,
you know, all the pack leader nonsense, like
(25:08):
that is like the worst story, but it
goes the other direction too.
Positive reinforcement trainers love making up stories.
And that was again, another, uh, brain explosion
moment for me when I realized, Oh yeah,
they're just responding to something in the environment.
Um, and this, I guess like with your
audience, it's not controversial at all.
Like to take a, um, behavior analysis lens,
(25:31):
but for me, it's really actually helped significantly
because I spent years in my career, like
trying to follow the stories and trying to
like essentially throw the spaghetti at the wall.
But I had no idea why things worked,
how things worked.
Like I was just following these protocols or
these things that people said like would help
because of this, this and this.
And now that I've kind of come back
(25:52):
full circle to realize, yeah, you can actually
really simplify your life.
If you're simplify your work as a dog
trainer, if you're paying close attention to antecedents
and consequences, especially to antecedents, although, you know,
of course we can't forget the consequences too.
I'm not saying those aren't important, but when
we're focusing specifically on management, we're really looking
at the antecedents.
(26:12):
I personally feel like it makes life easier.
Yeah.
Makes it maybe harder in regards to engaging
in conversation.
Like harder because when people don't see things
the same way we do.
Well, like, so I was just thinking back
to, um, being at Movement Century last week
(26:33):
with the Keepers in Australia, a Zuma consultant
for those who don't know what the heck
I'm talking about right now.
Um, and being in for seven years, we've
got all this old footage and stuff that
we can use to kind of like talk
about some of the behaviors and, and hearing,
that's just one example, but the dog training
industry is the same, like hearing, Oh, this
happens because of that.
And then, uh, there was an example where
(26:55):
some parrots were screaming at someone and in
a way that was deemed undesirable.
And I was, and it was because the
uniform that the Keepers were wearing, but I
said, how do you know that?
And then we tested that.
And we sent someone walking past with a
uniform and a camera and the birds just
looked at them, didn't do anything, um, locally.
And then there was confusion and contemplation that
(27:19):
it was a specific Keepers and the uniform.
So we tested that and then it wasn't.
Um, and I, and I just, so more
challenging to engage in conversations because one, if
you don't have authority and I use that
word in terms of you're a trusted source
of reliable knowledge, right.
(27:40):
Um, and you, and you, you are able
to help someone, um, and to, you know,
well that, that, if you don't have that
and people are sharing stories and like, who
are you to like question that?
Like, do you have data to back this
up or like what Alexander Kirwan says, like
you can go to animals for answers and
humans for opinions, like, like that.
(28:02):
Oh my God, I love that.
Yeah.
Right.
So that, that, that's fair.
Like, and, and because it makes me think
to our marketing and stock trainers and we're
setting up our websites and we're all like,
yo, uh, I help you build your relationship
with your dog.
And like, people are like, I don't care.
Like I just don't want them to jump
on people when they come to my front
door.
(28:22):
Like, you know, and, and so there's two
like aspects, I think to dog trainers often
making websites.
One is like how I look to my
peers and two is like how I can
actually sell my products.
And sometimes that second one comes later.
So when I say hard, I mean like
to be a professional in this industry where
(28:43):
networking is important because that, that fog in
terms of narratives we form based on opinion
rather than data.
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
Basically we can, uh, we can find ourselves,
I don't know if in conflict is the
word, but sometimes in conflict with, again, the
stories that people tell or believe, especially when
(29:03):
talking about their dogs or dogs they work
with often or species they work with, often
they can come with beliefs and beliefs about
why things are working.
But my gosh, I love your example.
Well, my, my question is, I love asking,
how do you know, how do you know,
you know, like, and then by asking that
(29:24):
enough times or asking variations of that enough
times, we come back to the observable behavior,
which, you know, is like you said, that's
where the answers lie, not the opinions.
And I love that you were able to
test and gather, gather a little bit of
data to say, Oh, do you think that's
what's queuing the vocalizing?
Let's see, you know?
And, and I think a lot of us
(29:45):
who really just want what's best for the,
like you said, the earthlings in our life,
like we just want everybody happy.
And so, uh, we're willing to like lead
with some curiosity and help people find the
answers themselves.
And as professionals, knowing what questions to ask
is the most important part.
(30:06):
Oh, your dog jumps on people.
Okay.
Well, when do, when does the jumping start?
Is it the moment somebody walks in?
Is it, is it when somebody reaches for
your dog?
Is it when your dog hears the doorbell,
like getting to the bottom of what the
exact antecedent is, is really, really important.
And therefore knowing what questions to ask, to
get to the bottom of that can be
(30:26):
really helpful for your training plan.
And then if you're focusing on behavior change
through training, you know, also saying, okay, well,
what happens when your dog jumps up?
What, what happens the moment that those paws
go on the person?
Like what are you seeing?
So having a very clear understanding of the
science ourselves can help us guide these conversations
(30:48):
in the productive directions that we know can
be helpful.
Yeah.
Awesome.
And so what I wanted to talk about
today, as I say, like 30 minutes, was
put some perspectives on what you think professionals
and interests most need to know about management.
I thought we could just kind of rattle
through a number of those.
(31:10):
I think we're kind of like, and summarize
one or two and what we've just talked
about though.
And, what is to come back to the
science and understand management from like management and
management is a term that could be defined
an infinite number of ways.
(31:32):
But if we bring it back to the
science, we're talking about antecedents and learning histories,
understanding those things and manipulating them strategically and
intentionally to modify behavior.
Not as a, you used the word band
-aid before, which I find interesting.
And like, I get it, but I also
(31:54):
think like that, tell me what you're on.
I'll play the devil's advocate here.
I also think that's like taking away from
the importance of it.
Like if it's a band-aid, like it's
not something that we should take seriously, but
like, I think with a lot of our,
I'm playing the devil's advocate.
I'm not, I'm not criticizing it.
You know, I'm so grateful.
You're presenting this.
Because, because like, it could just be that
(32:16):
all our, all our clients need, and why
would we overcomplicate them and try to teach
them about science when they really don't care?
And we can just change an antecedent strategically
and intentionally and help them achieve their goals.
Yes.
The answer is yes.
Yes.
So I, well, I, okay.
I think one, I completely agree with you.
(32:36):
I mean, you know me, I'm like, so
pro management.
I wrote a whole book on it.
I love management.
I talk a lot in the book about
how to respond when people are like, well,
you're just avoiding the problem.
It's just a band-aid.
And like my TLDR response to that is
yeah.
And you know, like, so who cares if
(32:59):
I'm avoiding the problem, if it solves the
problem for me?
Yes.
I am preventing my dogs barking by putting
window film up.
And if the window film was down, she
would still bark, but the window film will
be up for the rest of her life.
And she'd never barks.
And that solves the problem for me with
zero effort.
So I, the book I dive into like
(33:20):
giving guardians, you know, empowering them with what
to say to like uncle Joe, the dog
trainer who says, what do you mean?
You're not going to teach her to not
like jump into the trash.
You're just going to put a lid on
it.
You're not teaching her right from wrong.
You know, I give some talking points to
that.
And I think pet professionals can take from
that as well.
And where I dive into the book of
(33:41):
different people have different opinions on management.
The only opinion that matters is yours because
then you can educate your clients about it
and you can come up with solutions that
work for everyone.
Let's talk about what some of those talking
points are, but before that, so to hold
onto that thought, cause I don't want to
talk about it, but I don't want to
lose my other thought.
And that is that it's easy to understand
(34:04):
like both sides of the coin.
Like I can, I can understand, like we
just need to put a lid on it.
Like problem solved.
I can understand the perspective, not saying there's
right or wrong.
And I really think of like, can understand
the perspective of the client.
So why you need those talking points.
And I'm grateful that we've got an opportunity
to talk about those.
Cause that sounds like it's changing perspectives.
(34:26):
That's so acknowledging that it's important.
Secondly, I find this always immense value in
comparing ourselves to dogs.
I'm trying to think about a management issue
where ourselves, where like that would be comparable
to that, where it would make more sense.
The best I've come up with in the
short period of time I've had to think
about this is just management for myself.
(34:46):
So I don't eat certain fatty foods because
they're not in my house cause I don't
buy them.
And one way I don't buy them is
I shop online for my groceries.
So I'm not even like physically in front
of the item and tempted to buy the
item.
So that's just changing my antecedents.
What's not for anyone to argue with.
(35:08):
I don't know if it's comparable to the
bin example though.
What are your thoughts?
No, so that's exactly, I completely agree with
you.
I think it is very beneficial to think
of management from our own perspectives because we
manage our own lives all the time.
We manipulate our environments to increase or decrease
certain behaviors all the time.
And I actually end the book talking about
(35:29):
this and citing a bunch of human examples
of where we manage our own lives.
An example being like, we'll put our, you
know, if you want to wake up and
do a workout early in the morning, if
you put your clothes out easy to find,
that's an environmental change and antecedent arrangement that
makes it much more likely that you're going
to wake up, grab your clothes, get dressed
and go.
(35:49):
Um, we, uh, you know, if there's traffic
on your route, you're going to choose a
different route, which is going to, well, one
change your driving behaviors, which could very easily
change other behaviors that show up your, you
know, behaviors we might label as rage.
So, um, we might pick the shortest line
(36:10):
at the grocery store because we want to,
we, what is it?
Okay.
Like, that's still an environmental change.
And this is where, when I start to
talk about this and I've really have to
think through it, um, uh, real time of
like, okay, yes, the choosing the shorter line
in the grocery store.
Well, that's technically a behavior.
(36:31):
And this, by the way, also gets complicated.
The consequence very can become antecedents for something
else.
Um, which is a management can play into
that, which I'd love to dive into too.
Um, but by choosing the shorter line, you
could like get out of the store more
quickly.
And so that's changing your environment to change
(36:53):
the behavior and then consequence outcomes.
So humans do it all the time.
I had some thoughts.
I mean, I don't know if your brain
works this way, but my brain does like
thoughts come and go so quickly.
I was like, that's why I write everything
down.
I was like, I write, I'm constantly writing
(37:13):
why people are talking and you're like, interesting.
But that's because of my brain.
Like it's very unreliable.
Um, so then talk, talk us through these,
these talking points.
So you're at your client's house and you're
like, he's like, how do I get Rover
to stop jumping in the bin?
And you're like, Hey, I noticed this cupboard's
empty.
Do you mind if I put the bed
in there and you put the bed in
(37:33):
the cupboard?
And Rovers like not jumping in the bed
anymore.
And he's like, you're not a trainer.
Give me my money back.
Like he hasn't learned what that's wrong.
Cause that's how we have to do things.
Like, what are your talking points?
I think I would present them with three
options.
One is we just manage, we put it
in the cupboard and we don't think about
(37:55):
it again.
And your problem is solved.
If you don't feel like that's adequate, your
second option is to fully train the behavior.
100% of the time you are there
ready to use your C, use your consequence
to modify your dog's behavior.
And it will take you 24 seven.
You will have to be on 100%
(38:16):
of the time.
And it might take, I don't know how
long it could, it will likely take weeks
and we have to generalize all these different
conditions.
You'd be like, if this is the job
you want to do great.
And you, I will certainly help you do
that.
Remember, we have option A sitting here and
option C I would say is a variation
of both.
When I'm here, we can work on behavior
(38:37):
around the trash can.
When I'm not here and you're not doing
training, the trash can goes in the cupboard.
So, which I would argue, management is an
important step in any behavior modification training plan.
But so like whether the client is up
for doing it or not, I think we
need to implement it to prevent the rehearsal
of the behavior.
But I would essentially say like, all right,
(38:59):
do you want to train?
Cool.
This is what it's going to look like.
You know, I bet a weekend they'd say,
you know, the cupboard's looking pretty good by
now.
Yeah.
I mean, that's, that's kind of a, it's
got a word or got a name.
Next time you talk, I'm going to quickly
Google what their name is.
It's like when you create a, for lack
(39:20):
of a better word, argument where like it's
illogical for them to choose anything other than
the option you want to present depending on
the individual and the reinforcers for them.
Right.
And thank you for bringing up reinforcers for
them, because I think that ties into exactly
what you were saying.
(39:40):
And I quoted Dr. Susan Friedman in my
book, The Cultural Fog that people believe in
order for, I don't know, them to be
worthy dog guardians or for their dog to
be categorized as like a good dog that
they, their dog should be well-trained and
they're quote unquote well-trained and their dog
should know right from wrong.
And so they have this existing belief that
(40:02):
it is only successfully trained or properly dealt
with if they've, you know, addressed the issue
head on and that's where education can be
really valuable.
They, you know, it's only a problem for
me, if it's a problem for you, you
know, saying as the professional, I think people
find a lot of relief in hearing that
(40:22):
it's okay to just manage the behavior.
They're thinking, you know, I just walk, I
just turn around when I see a dog
and like, that really works for us, but
I know that we're avoiding the issue.
Okay.
Well, you said it works for you.
That's not a problem to me.
The, uh, I was multitasking then.
Oh, did you find the, did you find
the word?
(40:43):
I'm just going to go persuasive reasoning.
That sounds great.
Yes.
Use your persuasive reasoning.
Yeah.
That was just going to say, I think,
I think as dog trainers we get really
good at using persuasive reasoning, whatever that means.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think they're really reasonable.
I mean, we often get questions in our
(41:03):
community, like what do you say in this
situation to like here, like how I've navigated
anything else in terms of professionals working with
clients meeting the average client's expectations and where
management comes into it.
I mean, so much of our job is
expectation setting and education and, and meeting clients
(41:27):
where they are.
And so not forcing anything on them and
not saying, well, if you want me to
help your dog's reactivity, you have to stop
going on walks.
Like I think it's really important to us
to hear out client's concerns and validate their
concerns and explain to them, you know, why
actually this step would be beneficial.
Okay.
That doesn't work for you.
(41:47):
Will this work for you?
So that's going to be for anything you're
wanting to implement, but especially with management and
you know, you can try to pitch it
as like, look, you need a break from
this behavior.
Let's just try this for a month.
You know, we'll just try it for two
weeks, four weeks.
Let's reconvene at the end of that, while
we work on these other goals.
And you tell me if the management is
(42:08):
working for you or if you want to
try something else.
Do you think for that, that this changes
in different stages of people's career?
I feel like for somebody who is quite
new and I think it potentially gets lost
and what we call ourselves, like the dog
(42:29):
training industry, like you're brought in as a
trainer.
Do you think that it gets overlooked sometimes
when, when also we as trainers go on
with expectations about what we do?
I think, yeah, I think there were probably,
there was probably a lot of time where
I felt like if I was suggesting management
to a client and that was the only
(42:50):
solution we were doing, that that meant like,
I wasn't a good enough trainer.
I wasn't a an effective trainer.
Like I was cheating.
I wasn't really helping these people.
Like again, meanwhile, I'm solving their problems.
I think it can go both directions before
you kind of get more experience.
I think you can feel like, well, no,
we have to do it this way.
And so, you know, kind of my way
(43:11):
or the highway, even though we think that's
helping, that can come off really, you know,
abrasive and aversive to clients.
If we are, if we're not flexible at
all with our, with what we want our
clients to do in regards to management or
anything else.
And then it can also go like the
minute somebody gives us pushback, okay, okay.
You know, we won't do it.
We won't do it.
You're right.
Or like not even suggesting something because we
(43:34):
think it's not a good idea.
And time and experience, I think it can
address both of those as you get a
little bit more confident and comfortable in advocating
for the solutions that you recommend.
We're nearly towards the end of this episode.
There's two things I'm thinking about.
One, one is that I don't know how
(43:56):
to, whether simple is better, return to the
basics, lean on science.
Like there's, I think there's a message in
the conversation that we've managed to have today
that, and, and, and, you know, that a
book like yours can help remind us in
terms of one of the benefits of the
book.
So there's that.
And then I'm also, you know, a human
(44:18):
and I'm like, it's what I'm saying, like
super obvious.
Like if you were out there listening to
us go, duh, Ryan, like why are we
listening to you?
But I don't think it is.
But at the same time, I do think
it is.
Well, I think it's like one of those
things that it feels simple to us, or
(44:39):
it feels like it feels simple.
It might be simple.
And that's how I feel about management in
general.
And a lot of my training solutions these
days, I put something on the internet.
That's like the most basic, like if you
want your dog to do something more, give
them a treat, you know?
And people are like, Whoa, that's the best
advice I've ever heard.
You know?
So you can say something that feels so
straightforward and simple to you, but to somebody
(45:00):
else who's hearing it either for the first
time or presented that way, it is life
-changing.
It is totally like new and life-changing
information.
So I don't think we should, I think
sometimes we can feel pressed to we as
we meaning trainers to like find the next
thing or like, you know, advance this way,
(45:21):
or like find the cutting edge thing, but
there's nothing new under the sun.
So the more we can come back to
exactly like you said, the basics while really
getting thorough in our understanding of those and
our application of those, I think is really,
really beneficial.
And that's why management, while it feels like
this newer term and this newer concept, it
(45:42):
is all rooted in what we already know
about applied behavior analysis and the importance of
antecedents and manipulating antecedents to increase or decrease
the likelihood that a behavior occurs.
And it's making me think about the curse
of knowledge.
I don't know if that's accurate for this,
but if you're listening, don't know what I'm
talking about.
(46:02):
I'm talking about a phenomenon where you become
more fluent and proficient in your trade, the
skills that you have, and therefore you struggle
to see what others don't know.
And so what seems really simple to you
and you don't even think about potentially explaining
(46:23):
it is like you said, I think you
used the word revolutionary for others, but I'm
wondering if like, that's not really what I'm
talking about.
I think in terms of what this conversation
is, it's like, it's like that curse of
knowledge can make you potentially, even in yourself,
like overcomplicate things.
It makes me think about learning about degrees
(46:46):
of freedom.
So like you've got your piece of chicken
for your dog and like to give them
degrees of freedom, you know, they would have
like four different ways to earn that piece
of chicken.
And then they've got like three degrees of
freedom.
Right.
And like for the majority of us, like
we're not doing that, you know, but like
(47:07):
one way to earn the chicken when we're
doing like cooperative care or something.
But like, if you, if you hear that,
you can be like, yo, I'm a bad
trainer because I am not giving enough degrees
of freedom.
And like, maybe they're like over complication that
we get through the narratives that we hear
in a dog industry and the stories and
that constant search for shiny objects can actually
(47:29):
be detrimental to the basics.
Yeah.
I know I'm grasping for here.
I think that we forget that the simplicity
of using management sometimes.
Yeah, totally.
And I think yes, you're absolutely right.
Based on what you said, when it can
(47:50):
start to feel like if you over-complicate
it or you try to like learn all
these new things and then you're like, well,
yeah, this is, if it's just this simple
thing, is it, are you, what do you
mean that's really the answer?
You know, like, what do you mean that
that can really be the solution?
And I think that in addition to coming
(48:11):
back to the basics with the science, also
coming back to our goal of just like
helping people and dogs or helping animals, you
know, whether it's like animals in a zoo
or dogs or cats or whoever your course
is, whoever you're working with, like coming back
to your goals of helping them and their
families and their caretakers, like, great, simple to
(48:31):
me feels like a win-win.
Yeah.
Maybe we need to like separate the simplicity
of our roles, which is not obviously always
the case.
And as you see, we're not meeting needs
and it's not like there's other things to
address, but obviously clients have limited resources, money,
time, and interest in doing all of the
(48:51):
things.
So that can be challenging, I think for
people, but we need that other space where
we can get nerdy with our peers and
colleagues.
Definitely.
And that's like, I think like building our,
you're exactly right.
Like you said earlier, like building your knowledge,
you never want that to come.
Well, it, unfortunately it can inevitably come, but
losing sight of how, like, what was life
(49:13):
like before we knew about behavior, you know,
like we totally lose that perspective of being
a new learner being a, what do they,
they like call that like a beginner's mind.
Like we, we don't have, we will never
have that perspective again.
We will never not know about behavior.
And so putting ourselves in their shoes and
(49:34):
trying to appreciate their perspectives can be very
valuable when trying to mold our deep understanding
of the science and the effective interventions we
want to use.
Well, I've just learned that a beginner's mind
is a concept from Zen Buddhism, often called
Shoshin.
That refers, did you know that?
Shoshin?
(49:55):
It refers to approaching situations with an attitude
of openness, curiosity, and lack of preconceptions.
As if you were a complete beginner when
you, you're experienced.
Wow.
I love Shoshin.
Yeah.
Doesn't that sound great?
Let's call this episode like building your Shoshin.
Yep.
I'm just going to jot that down.
That pretty much brings us towards the end
(50:16):
of the podcast.
There's one last question.
I don't know if I told you this
beforehand, so if not, sorry for putting you
on the spot, but we always like to
ask our guests what they want to see
happen over the next five to 10 years
in our animal training industry.
So what would your thoughts be?
What do you want to see happen in
our industry?
I want people to continue to learn about
(50:38):
and come back to the applied behavior analysis,
quote unquote basics.
I want people to deepen their understanding of
the ABCs and use those, use that to
guide their, you can still tell stories about
what's going on, but do it from the
lens of the ABCs, please.
So I think learning more about that is
(51:00):
going to empower us to come up with
very effective, humane, kind solutions for our learners.
And the tide will raise all the ships
if we all learn that and get better
at that and get better at our practice
and become more effective in our kind interventions.
(51:20):
Yeah.
It makes me think some feedback I get
about animal training can be sometimes Juliana is
people want to see content that is not
so ABA focused, which, which I understand it.
And I guess I always in my mind
go, it's not an issue because we have
a dartboard to use Susan Friedman's metaphor of
(51:41):
behavior.
And we have all of the rings on
the dartboard.
And all of those rings are just different
sister sciences and we need the full dartboard,
but we can choose to have a bullseye.
That is in the case of our Academy
anyway, applied behavior analysis and doing ABCs.
And I feel like my knowledge on that
subject, when I look at people who listen
(52:06):
to my podcast and probably slam their forehead
into their palm and go, right, what are
you talking about when they're talking about behavior
analysis?
Cause they're like professors at university.
And I'm being arrogant thinking that universities that
apply behavior analysis at, sorry, professors of applied
behavior analysis at universities listen to this podcast,
who you are, shout out to you.
But like, yeah, we have our bullseye.
(52:28):
So I, I, I love that.
I think when we're thinking about learning and
we're thinking about behavior, that's like super important.
And obviously in saying that just, we're not
obviously taking away from all of the other
important sciences, which I think you're, you guys
have a really great bubble here, which like,
I guess that was, I don't know, maybe
I could have had a different perspective, but
(52:49):
I, like in the rest of the dog
training world, I were not as, um, I
think the industry as a whole still has
some ways to go in understanding this lens
and the benefit of this lens and the
inevitable nature of this lens.
Like you can't disconnect it from things.
And so people who are definitely in your
membership and probably listening to this podcast, get
(53:11):
it, but not everybody gets it.
And so go forth and spread the ABCs.
Please continue.
Yes.
Ripples definitely.
Well, this has been so much fun.
Can you tell people where they can go
to find your book where they can go
online to find you and get in touch?
Yeah.
Dog wise is the publisher.
So the dog wise website has the book,
manage it hacks for improving your dog's behavior.
(53:32):
You can find all my links and where
to contact me directly on Instagram, JW dog
training.
And, um, yeah, I'll see everybody online.
That's where I spend a lot of my
time.
Fantastic.
And we will of course, link to all
of that in the show notes as well.
Juliana, this has been a ton of fun.
So from myself on everyone listening, we appreciate
everything you do.
We appreciate you.
(53:52):
And we appreciate you coming on the show
today.
Thank you so much.
Thank you, Brian.
And thank you so much for listening as
well.
This is your host Ryan Cartlidge signing off
from this episode of the animal training Academy
podcast show.
We hope today's conversation inspired you and equipped
(54:13):
you with new tools for your trainer's toolbox.
Remember every challenge in training is an opportunity
to learn and sharpen your animal training geekery.
Embrace the rough patches, learn from them and
keep improving.
And don't forget the path to growing your
skills and expanding your knowledge continues beyond this
(54:36):
episode, visit www.atamember.com to join our
supportive membership where you will find a community
of trainers just like you.
Together we're making a huge positive difference in
the lives of animal and human learners worldwide.
(54:58):
Until next time, keep honing your skills, stay
awesome and remember every interaction with an animal
or human learner is your opportunity to create
ripples.
We're here cheering you on every step of
the way.
See you at the next episode.
Welcome to the Animal Training Academy podcast show.
I'm your host, Ryan Carledge, and I'm passionate
about helping you master your animal training skills
using the most positive and least intrusive approaches.
Here at ATA, we understand that navigating the
vast challenges you encounter in training requires a
(00:27):
comprehensive base of knowledge and experience.
It's common to face obstacles and rough patches
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Therefore, since 2015, we have been on a
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We've aided thousands in developing their skills, expanding
(00:51):
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We are excited to do the same for
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Simply visit www.atamember.com, join our vibrant
(01:11):
community and geek out with us.
And of course, in the meantime, enjoy this
free podcast episode as we explore new ways
to help you supercharge your training skills, grow
your knowledge and build your confidence so that
you can craft a life that positively impacts
(01:32):
every learner you encounter.
But we will get started on this episode
where I am super excited to welcome back
to the show for part two of our
conversation, the awesome Juliana de Willems.
If you haven't listened to the first part
(01:54):
of our conversation, you can find it in
the previous episode on whatever app you're listening
to the show on.
In that episode, we explored Juliana's journey in
getting started with positive reinforcement animal training and
what led her to her current work as
social media extraordinaire and co-host of Delightful
(02:17):
on the Ranch, monthly live broadcast with Kendra
Meris, amongst a whole bunch of other things.
If you haven't listened to it yet, you
are of course, welcome to just hang out
with us and start here with part two,
where you're still going to gain plenty of
insights to help you grow your skills, knowledge,
and confidence in animal training.
Juliana, welcome back.
And thanks so much for coming to hang
(02:38):
out with us again at Animal Training Academy.
Thank you, Ryan.
I'm very happy to be here again.
Well, let's dive straight into this one.
I'm excited to talk about management today.
I don't think we've done a whole podcast
episode in 260 episodes, whatever we're up to
now, specifically on management.
(03:04):
I've lent into dedicating this one to that,
because you've recently written a book recommended by
Kendra Meris called Manage It, Hacks for Improving
Your Dog's Behavior.
Tell us about this, Juliana.
How did this book come about?
This book came about because I, one, said,
(03:25):
hmm, maybe I should try writing a book.
And then I thought, what would I, what
would I write about?
And I thought, wait a second, I love
management and no one has ever written a
whole book on management before or yet.
Right.
Exactly.
When that's what, and you know, when you're
like, we haven't done a whole, that's usually
the sentiment is like, oh, we talk about
(03:46):
it or it's mentioned, but we haven't really
like done a deep dive into it.
And I, yeah, basically wrote the book that
I wanted to see in the world.
Cause I just feel really strongly it's an
excellent resource for pet parents.
And I think it's a really helpful, I
don't know, technique, whatever you want to call
it.
Hopefully we'll define it in a second for
dog trainers and pet trainers as well.
(04:07):
Yeah.
Well let's go there then, let's define management.
And it makes me curious.
Do you have different definitions of it?
If you're talking to different audiences, if you're
talking to your general, I don't like this
word, but for lack of a better word
at the moment, layman pet parent versus pet
(04:28):
professionals, do you modify the definition somewhat depending
on the audience?
For both audiences, I would say the general
definition of management is just manipulating the environment
to increase or decrease certain behaviors from occurring.
And the only way I might tweak that
for somebody who understands the science of learning
and behavior would to say, would be to
(04:49):
say using antecedent arrangement to increase or decrease
the likelihood of behaviors occurring, but antecedent arrangement
and environment are pretty interchangeable.
And so I think either definition really captures
what management is.
Yeah.
It makes me contemplate, we're not what my
definition of training for the audience of people
(05:12):
who are there specifically to learn from me
about training and a distinction I make personally,
and not saying there's any right or wrong
to anyone else, it's just differently.
I just have clarity when I'm teaching people
what I mean when I say terms.
And so training being defined in that context,
I just described as the intentional and strategic
(05:32):
setting up of antecedents and consequences to modify
behavior, which sounds really similar to what you're
saying.
Manipulating the environment to change behavior.
However, with regards to the definition you offer
pet pro professionals or animal training professionals, if
you're not working with pets is a large
focus on the antecedent component of our ABCs.
(05:55):
Yep, exactly.
Where like you mentioned training, and I think
a lot of us, especially as positive reinforcement
trainers, when I first went and started learning
about positive reinforcement, we put so much emphasis
on the C on the consequence.
And then of course, as you learn, you
realize how important the antecedent arrangement is in
influencing the behavior.
And so you learn about the importance of
(06:16):
both.
And yes, I think management essentially puts most
of the focus on changing the environment where
of course behaviors happen and then consequences happen,
but management is really increasing or decreasing the
behaviors that you're seeing through the antecedents.
And from where I'm sitting, and this is
also super helpful for professionals though, for professionals
(06:38):
working with animal training, not necessarily pets for
various reasons, because one, the listeners of the
show, our audience, we just love geeking out
about animal training too, because we can always
learn more about anything, including management.
Even if the ideas might not be new
to us, there's always such huge value in
(06:59):
my personal opinion and hearing things worded in
different ways.
And I think knowing the specific content of
resources like the one you have made gives
people doing consults, something else to reach for
and to recommend and social provide for pet
(07:19):
owners.
If they have clients that this would benefit
and like to absorb and if their clients
like to absorb information in this way, I
know not all clients like to be given
homework and handed a book and said, you
need to read this.
They'd be like, I didn't sign up for
this, but for those clients who are inclined
(07:40):
to want to learn more and would benefit
from having resources.
I know a lot of people just want
resources, like they want to be able to
lean on things.
So I think there's a huge benefit for
obviously the pet owners that the book's targeted
at, but for the reasons I've suggested and
potentially more, the book is a really great
(08:01):
resource for pet professionals as well.
Are these things that you kind of thought
about?
Do you want to add anything else to
that?
Thank you.
Yes, totally.
The book is definitely geared towards the average
person with a dog.
I think there's a huge need for the
public to learn about management and understand it.
And within the book, I was able to,
man, what a great opportunity to just like
(08:22):
put all my thoughts in one place about
what I feel about behavior and share the
science and share why management, while it does
decrease behavior, it is not the same as
punishment, which we can talk about.
And why you sort of like if you
have options between the two management can be,
you know, better for your dog or for
(08:44):
your pet.
And so I was able to educate about
the science of learning and what management is.
And I even, you know, got to sneak
in a whole chapter about like enrichment and
meeting your dog's needs.
So I really got, I packed a lot
of really helpful information.
The book is really split into two parts.
The first third is again kind of talking
about learning and dog behavior and dog needs
(09:07):
and how to approach behavior with your dog.
And then the second two thirds, second and
thirds thirds are chapter by chapter going through
different behavior challenges and explaining different management options.
So we've got like barking inside, barking on
your deck, barking at triggers on walks, chewing
(09:30):
stuff in your house, loosely walking, coming when
called we've like a miscellaneous chapter.
We have a puppy's chapter.
We have I essentially made it so that
you can educate yourself about how dogs learn
and what, how to approach their behavior.
And then if you needed to, you could
just slip flip to the chapter that you
want.
(09:50):
That would be most helpful to you.
Although I have heard of people saying they
wanted to read additional chapters to get more
ideas, but yes, it's definitely for pet guardians
and it should be a really helpful resource
for your clients.
And I think there's so much to talk
about from a behavior analysis perspective of what
exactly is management in the ABCs.
What, when we are manipulating the antecedents, what
(10:11):
exactly is happening?
So there's tons to talk about in both
directions.
Yeah.
And I feel like this is the antecedent
part is something that just yesterday, you know,
coming up to 20 years of doing this,
I was a student of, and that is
(10:33):
I've been working on a trick title, my
cat Tilo, just a novice one, but for
about five years, because sometimes I might go
three or four months before between training sessions,
just because that's what my life has looked
like with my young family.
And so anyway, I've managed to train, I
(10:54):
think three times this week, which is like
unheard of.
Crazy.
I thought I'd have a crack at training
the selfie behavior.
So that means that you kind of sit
down and the cat comes up behind you,
puts two feet on your shoulder and looks
at the camera, right?
You get a good selfie.
And I thought, okay, cool.
I will train the cat to target it's
(11:17):
two front paws to something elevated and kind
of like transfer that station to my shoulders.
Cause I just had a trial session and
the cat had no idea what I just
tried to lure it on there.
It's getting all confused and going all over
the place.
So anyway, I had a session two days
ago and the cat was putting his paws
on the station and the station was elevated
a little bit and like it was doing
reliably.
(11:38):
And then went in yesterday and the cat
kind of like just came up and like
sat down in front of the little station
instead of me.
But it just made me realize like how
reinforced that behavior is.
Like the environment for that cat is saying
what works here is sitting down in front
of dad and looking at dad.
I'm assuming cause I don't know what the
(11:59):
cat's thinking.
Cause dad's going to provide me with more
information and then I can get some like
yummy treats.
Right.
And I'm like, ah, that's my bad.
Like, you know, I've set this up so
that when we're training in my office, like
that is what the cat does.
Um, and so I'm like to use Dr.
(12:19):
Jesus Rosales Ruiz's words on fighting extinction there.
Right.
I'm saying like, don't do what works for
you.
Don't do what the environment is telling you
to do.
Do something else instead.
And like, why would the cat do that?
Right.
And that's what we mean antecedent position.
Um, all of that's a long winded way
to say, like, um, I feel that it's
(12:42):
something, as you said, we focus on the
consequence part that we just often overlook.
Um, and that, and you said it, I
think you said in your book that you
talk about meeting the dog's needs and enrichment.
Um, and so those, those parts are I
think powerful tools that we as an industry,
(13:06):
uh, can leverage more.
Uh, and so I think that bleeds into
the reason why you wrote this book.
And your thoughts kind of similar to mine
in there.
Have I kind of really long windedly summed
that up?
Well, so one, like my, when I finally
connected the dots and had this like moment
of how much they influence the environment influences
(13:27):
behavior, my head was like blown, which I
know feels like, you know, behavior analysis 101.
And I, I like sheepishly admit that this
was years and years into my career as
a dog trainer.
Like I understood, I understood like, you know,
we, I think we talk about it a
lot under the guise of like, or under
the, like set your dog up for success.
(13:49):
Like we all try to set our dogs
up for success and you set your dog
up first.
I set for success by thinking about what
can I do in this situation to help
them be successful.
And a lot of us are naturally doing
antecedent arrangement there.
And then when I really realized where the
environment and the antecedents influence behavior, because like
(14:10):
without antecedents, there is no behavior, the, you
know, that's the antecedents.
And which is, by the way, part of
management, there are many different ways to manipulate
antecedents.
And one way to one form of management
is to just eliminate the antecedent and take
it off the table.
Because if there is no antecedent slash Q,
(14:30):
there is no behavior.
But I, yeah, that, that relationship is very
empowering to understand even something as simple as
like, if you walk on one side of
the street with your dog versus the other
side of the street, you're going to get
different behavior because there are different conditions happening.
There are different antecedents, depending on where you're
walking.
(14:51):
And the actually, interestingly, the chapter that I
have about meeting needs and enrichment and stuff
like that, it was the chapter where I
was like, you can't manage your way out
of like meeting your dog's needs.
So, which I wanted to make it very
clear, like management, yes, as a bandaid for
behavior problems, in my opinion is that's not
a problem generally, but we can't like bandaid
(15:13):
a dog who is like under enriched and
unfulfilled and that type of thing.
That being said, enrichment falls under the distant
antecedent category and potentially motivating operations or abolishing
operations for behavior that can show up later
that day or in that scenario.
(15:35):
And that's helpful to understand too, which is
also something that I'm like just slowly starting
to melt into my brain.
It's one of those things, you know, you're
a drug trainer for over a decade.
You're like, I've learned so much.
And then suddenly you find yourself as a
new learner, but wow, again, how empowering it
is to understand this.
So me thinking, I'm talking about this simple
topic of management has opened up this whole
(15:57):
new world of the antecedents in the environment
and the, the power that the environment has
on behavior.
I mean, it's everything.
Maybe just quickly for those who are listening
to this.
And also for those who are, just to
be those who are listening and maybe like
(16:17):
a little bit lost because they're like, why
is he saying abolishing or what?
They know.
Like, right.
And they're like, you're not, you're not in
a space where like the majority of people
don't understand that a lot of our listeners
are quite knowledgeable, but also like there are
some who are like, I don't want to
lose.
Cause I just want to make sure that
we clearly state what we're talking about.
(16:39):
So can you just like offer a few
definitions of some of the things we talked
about there?
Like why, why can't we, in your words,
why can't we bandaid something if we're not
meeting these, like just unpacked it a little
bit.
And then I think some terms you use
here of motivating operate, operate motivating operations, abolishing
operations, like, and this I'll take some of
(16:59):
those nerdy, slightly more nerdy terms for us.
Yeah.
And please Ryan, like jump in with your
expertise on this too, because again, I'm actually
like a very new learner on a lot
of these things where like, I might've seen
the topics or like, you know, Dr. Susan
Friedman's living and learning with animals course.
(17:20):
I certainly learned it then when I took
it back in 2017 came and went in
my brain, I'll tell you what, I felt
like I had never seen that term before
when it showed up a few years later.
Um, and then taking some of my, you
know, certification exams.
Like I, once upon a time, I thought
I had a grasp on these things and
I don't.
So the first part of your question, basically,
like if you have a dog who is
(17:41):
not getting enough exercise, it's not having any
outlets to be a dog and they're like
jumping on people or they're barking out the
windows and you're wanting to manage those behaviors,
you risk not making any progress with management
or making minimal progress with management because the
real issue is like your dog just needs
more your dog.
You need, you need to figure out ways
to meet their needs a little bit better
(18:02):
through whatever variety of enrichment and exercise and
training or whatever you choose.
And that management can help a lot of
things, but not a dog who is not
having their needs met.
And so, okay, let me make sure that
I can remember these definitions correctly, correctly.
Essentially there's like this from my understanding and
(18:24):
it like pains me to think that like
if Kiki ever Kiki Ablon ever listens to
this episode, Kiki is my like Susan Friedman.
She helps me so much with my behavior
analysis stuff.
Um, anyway, I'm putting this out on the
internet.
I could be wrong and I'm okay with
that.
So, um, motivating operations are essentially something that
increases the value of the reinforcer.
(18:46):
Uh, so for example, if the dog has
not had a meal in a long time,
that is going to make the value of
the food, um, increase and in abolishing operation
is going to have the opposite effect.
So say, for example, a dog is pulling
to get to a sniff and they, you
(19:07):
let them go get the sniff and they
get a sniff at all up.
The sniff is no longer valuable.
And so they no longer behave to access
the sniff.
I see you nodding your head.
So what do you think?
Was that, was that okay?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, firstly, uh, shout out to Kiki
cause she's awesome.
Um, secondly, I think, I think what this
(19:27):
conversation's, uh, helping me appreciate is that even
as professionals, like me with my cat yesterday,
we're like, afterwards I watched my video on
my cat training and I'm like, oh yeah,
the cat did this.
I didn't actually have a plan for like,
what I was going to do.
And the cat did what I wanted, didn't
want them.
(19:47):
And of course the cat's not going to
do what I wanted them to do.
Um, cause I didn't set the environment up
well.
Um, there's all these bits and pieces where
you're like, I could just like pay loads
of money for teaching this last week.
And like, there I go during the training
session myself.
And I'm like, didn't do any of that
stuff.
Um, so thanks for your vulnerability.
Um, and then also it made me contemplate
(20:08):
on some reflections recently where I was exploring
the dynamics of my relationship with another person
and, and some of the conversations and patterns
we get into.
And then, uh, always wanting to filter things
through an ABA lens, um, had the reflection
that everyone's behavior makes sense for them.
(20:30):
Otherwise they wouldn't do it.
Right.
And the only reason they're doing is cause
there's reinforcers there, but how often I forget
that in human interactions, right?
Because we suck, like I think personally anyway,
uh, at generalizing behavior, right?
So if you're working with another human learner
and you see things differently and you're using
words to discuss your different perspectives on the
(20:52):
same item, um, and you've got certain behaviors
associated with how you choose to discuss those
things.
Um, then that all makes sense to the
individual.
And like if it was a dog, you'd
be like, yeah, that's cool.
Like let's, um, do what we do as
professionals.
But if it's a human, you're like, I'm
so emotional and that you lose that.
(21:14):
And so anyway, the thing that's making me
appreciate it is we're talking about management and
we're talking about, um, my training materials today,
we're talking about terms we use.
Like I think it's easy to forget the
simple things sometimes and the disorientation of life.
Like, have you found that?
Like I feel like that's what you were
expressing, like writing this book has helped you
(21:36):
ground yourself and get somewhat in the antecedent.
Yeah.
And I think, you know, you, you've taken
so much information.
It's like what Ken says with, um, don't
shoot the dog.
Like every time he reads it, he's like,
how did that get in there?
You know, it's this, like you, you learn
something or you hear something and then you,
and then you hear the same exact thing
(21:57):
years later, but you have so much different
experience and so much different perspective.
So it just hits different.
And it totally, it totally shows up differently.
I mean, I remember the first time, like
I heard about like pattern games with control
and leash.
And I was like, when would I ever
use that baby trainer?
Like, you know, like little did she know.
(22:17):
And then years later I see the value
and how incredible, incredibly effective they can be
and helpful.
So you just, you things click differently.
And I feel like now after a decade,
I'm slowly starting to get this clearer grasp
on behavior.
Again, thanks to my wonderful colleagues.
You know, Kiki has shaped a lot of
my learning in the last couple of years,
(22:37):
but yeah, I think that there's just a
lot of input when you first become a
trainer and things do you just, they just
don't land in your brain the same way
that they might a few years later.
Yeah.
I think that's a really great, um, addition
and things to remember as well.
Uh, and that's, I think circles back to
(22:59):
one of the benefits I said for professionals,
reading your book is it helps center us
back and the basics as well.
Maybe because like two things, uh, firstly, Juliana,
like I started animal training Academy.
And then because we focus on behavior, you
know, coming from a decade of working as
an employee in zoos to starting a business
(23:22):
that focuses on behavior for all earthlings or
predominantly non-human, but that made 80%
of our pie dog trainers.
Right.
And so in turn the dog industry, and
that was a decade ago now, and not
knowing the dog industry, I just had my
(23:42):
glasses on my, my behavior analyst classes on,
right.
I was like, what's the incident?
What's the baby?
What's the key?
I don't know any of the baggage that's
in the dog industry.
Um, you know, I'm like, Oh, was that
the right thing to say baggage?
But I think people know what I mean.
I think, I think it's so important to
realize like the relationship that humans and dogs
(24:02):
have, like we totally bring baggage to the
training.
Yeah.
And, and so like, it was a really
interesting time to have conversations with people then.
Cause I'm like, what are you talking about?
Like, like the dogs doing this observable behavior
and the presence of this antecedent for this
concept.
And like, it was very simple.
As Karen Pryor says, it's just behavior.
(24:25):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So like there's, there's that, but I think
like, then the reading the book like that
now to bring it back to the antecedents,
like, I think it can help clear some
of the fog.
Like Susan Freedman's talks about cultural fog with
regards to like a lack of knowledge, but
I think they become some fog with regards
to opinions shared on social media, uh, and
(24:48):
culture that the science gets a backseat.
Yep.
Yep.
I am.
I am eagerly, uh, nodding my head.
Yeah, totally.
Uh, we make, we love making up stories
about dogs and why they behave the way
that they do.
And I mean that even of course, like,
you know, all the pack leader nonsense, like
(25:08):
that is like the worst story, but it
goes the other direction too.
Positive reinforcement trainers love making up stories.
And that was again, another, uh, brain explosion
moment for me when I realized, Oh yeah,
they're just responding to something in the environment.
Um, and this, I guess like with your
audience, it's not controversial at all.
Like to take a, um, behavior analysis lens,
(25:31):
but for me, it's really actually helped significantly
because I spent years in my career, like
trying to follow the stories and trying to
like essentially throw the spaghetti at the wall.
But I had no idea why things worked,
how things worked.
Like I was just following these protocols or
these things that people said like would help
because of this, this and this.
And now that I've kind of come back
(25:52):
full circle to realize, yeah, you can actually
really simplify your life.
If you're simplify your work as a dog
trainer, if you're paying close attention to antecedents
and consequences, especially to antecedents, although, you know,
of course we can't forget the consequences too.
I'm not saying those aren't important, but when
we're focusing specifically on management, we're really looking
at the antecedents.
(26:12):
I personally feel like it makes life easier.
Yeah.
Makes it maybe harder in regards to engaging
in conversation.
Like harder because when people don't see things
the same way we do.
Well, like, so I was just thinking back
to, um, being at Movement Century last week
(26:33):
with the Keepers in Australia, a Zuma consultant
for those who don't know what the heck
I'm talking about right now.
Um, and being in for seven years, we've
got all this old footage and stuff that
we can use to kind of like talk
about some of the behaviors and, and hearing,
that's just one example, but the dog training
industry is the same, like hearing, Oh, this
happens because of that.
And then, uh, there was an example where
(26:55):
some parrots were screaming at someone and in
a way that was deemed undesirable.
And I was, and it was because the
uniform that the Keepers were wearing, but I
said, how do you know that?
And then we tested that.
And we sent someone walking past with a
uniform and a camera and the birds just
looked at them, didn't do anything, um, locally.
And then there was confusion and contemplation that
(27:19):
it was a specific Keepers and the uniform.
So we tested that and then it wasn't.
Um, and I, and I just, so more
challenging to engage in conversations because one, if
you don't have authority and I use that
word in terms of you're a trusted source
of reliable knowledge, right.
(27:40):
Um, and you, and you, you are able
to help someone, um, and to, you know,
well that, that, if you don't have that
and people are sharing stories and like, who
are you to like question that?
Like, do you have data to back this
up or like what Alexander Kirwan says, like
you can go to animals for answers and
humans for opinions, like, like that.
(28:02):
Oh my God, I love that.
Yeah.
Right.
So that, that, that's fair.
Like, and, and because it makes me think
to our marketing and stock trainers and we're
setting up our websites and we're all like,
yo, uh, I help you build your relationship
with your dog.
And like, people are like, I don't care.
Like I just don't want them to jump
on people when they come to my front
door.
(28:22):
Like, you know, and, and so there's two
like aspects, I think to dog trainers often
making websites.
One is like how I look to my
peers and two is like how I can
actually sell my products.
And sometimes that second one comes later.
So when I say hard, I mean like
to be a professional in this industry where
(28:43):
networking is important because that, that fog in
terms of narratives we form based on opinion
rather than data.
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
Basically we can, uh, we can find ourselves,
I don't know if in conflict is the
word, but sometimes in conflict with, again, the
stories that people tell or believe, especially when
(29:03):
talking about their dogs or dogs they work
with often or species they work with, often
they can come with beliefs and beliefs about
why things are working.
But my gosh, I love your example.
Well, my, my question is, I love asking,
how do you know, how do you know,
you know, like, and then by asking that
(29:24):
enough times or asking variations of that enough
times, we come back to the observable behavior,
which, you know, is like you said, that's
where the answers lie, not the opinions.
And I love that you were able to
test and gather, gather a little bit of
data to say, Oh, do you think that's
what's queuing the vocalizing?
Let's see, you know?
And, and I think a lot of us
(29:45):
who really just want what's best for the,
like you said, the earthlings in our life,
like we just want everybody happy.
And so, uh, we're willing to like lead
with some curiosity and help people find the
answers themselves.
And as professionals, knowing what questions to ask
is the most important part.
(30:06):
Oh, your dog jumps on people.
Okay.
Well, when do, when does the jumping start?
Is it the moment somebody walks in?
Is it, is it when somebody reaches for
your dog?
Is it when your dog hears the doorbell,
like getting to the bottom of what the
exact antecedent is, is really, really important.
And therefore knowing what questions to ask, to
get to the bottom of that can be
(30:26):
really helpful for your training plan.
And then if you're focusing on behavior change
through training, you know, also saying, okay, well,
what happens when your dog jumps up?
What, what happens the moment that those paws
go on the person?
Like what are you seeing?
So having a very clear understanding of the
science ourselves can help us guide these conversations
(30:48):
in the productive directions that we know can
be helpful.
Yeah.
Awesome.
And so what I wanted to talk about
today, as I say, like 30 minutes, was
put some perspectives on what you think professionals
and interests most need to know about management.
I thought we could just kind of rattle
through a number of those.
(31:10):
I think we're kind of like, and summarize
one or two and what we've just talked
about though.
And, what is to come back to the
science and understand management from like management and
management is a term that could be defined
an infinite number of ways.
(31:32):
But if we bring it back to the
science, we're talking about antecedents and learning histories,
understanding those things and manipulating them strategically and
intentionally to modify behavior.
Not as a, you used the word band
-aid before, which I find interesting.
And like, I get it, but I also
(31:54):
think like that, tell me what you're on.
I'll play the devil's advocate here.
I also think that's like taking away from
the importance of it.
Like if it's a band-aid, like it's
not something that we should take seriously, but
like, I think with a lot of our,
I'm playing the devil's advocate.
I'm not, I'm not criticizing it.
You know, I'm so grateful.
You're presenting this.
Because, because like, it could just be that
(32:16):
all our, all our clients need, and why
would we overcomplicate them and try to teach
them about science when they really don't care?
And we can just change an antecedent strategically
and intentionally and help them achieve their goals.
Yes.
The answer is yes.
Yes.
So I, well, I, okay.
I think one, I completely agree with you.
(32:36):
I mean, you know me, I'm like, so
pro management.
I wrote a whole book on it.
I love management.
I talk a lot in the book about
how to respond when people are like, well,
you're just avoiding the problem.
It's just a band-aid.
And like my TLDR response to that is
yeah.
And you know, like, so who cares if
(32:59):
I'm avoiding the problem, if it solves the
problem for me?
Yes.
I am preventing my dogs barking by putting
window film up.
And if the window film was down, she
would still bark, but the window film will
be up for the rest of her life.
And she'd never barks.
And that solves the problem for me with
zero effort.
So I, the book I dive into like
(33:20):
giving guardians, you know, empowering them with what
to say to like uncle Joe, the dog
trainer who says, what do you mean?
You're not going to teach her to not
like jump into the trash.
You're just going to put a lid on
it.
You're not teaching her right from wrong.
You know, I give some talking points to
that.
And I think pet professionals can take from
that as well.
And where I dive into the book of
(33:41):
different people have different opinions on management.
The only opinion that matters is yours because
then you can educate your clients about it
and you can come up with solutions that
work for everyone.
Let's talk about what some of those talking
points are, but before that, so to hold
onto that thought, cause I don't want to
talk about it, but I don't want to
lose my other thought.
And that is that it's easy to understand
(34:04):
like both sides of the coin.
Like I can, I can understand, like we
just need to put a lid on it.
Like problem solved.
I can understand the perspective, not saying there's
right or wrong.
And I really think of like, can understand
the perspective of the client.
So why you need those talking points.
And I'm grateful that we've got an opportunity
to talk about those.
Cause that sounds like it's changing perspectives.
(34:26):
That's so acknowledging that it's important.
Secondly, I find this always immense value in
comparing ourselves to dogs.
I'm trying to think about a management issue
where ourselves, where like that would be comparable
to that, where it would make more sense.
The best I've come up with in the
short period of time I've had to think
about this is just management for myself.
(34:46):
So I don't eat certain fatty foods because
they're not in my house cause I don't
buy them.
And one way I don't buy them is
I shop online for my groceries.
So I'm not even like physically in front
of the item and tempted to buy the
item.
So that's just changing my antecedents.
What's not for anyone to argue with.
(35:08):
I don't know if it's comparable to the
bin example though.
What are your thoughts?
No, so that's exactly, I completely agree with
you.
I think it is very beneficial to think
of management from our own perspectives because we
manage our own lives all the time.
We manipulate our environments to increase or decrease
certain behaviors all the time.
And I actually end the book talking about
(35:29):
this and citing a bunch of human examples
of where we manage our own lives.
An example being like, we'll put our, you
know, if you want to wake up and
do a workout early in the morning, if
you put your clothes out easy to find,
that's an environmental change and antecedent arrangement that
makes it much more likely that you're going
to wake up, grab your clothes, get dressed
and go.
(35:49):
Um, we, uh, you know, if there's traffic
on your route, you're going to choose a
different route, which is going to, well, one
change your driving behaviors, which could very easily
change other behaviors that show up your, you
know, behaviors we might label as rage.
So, um, we might pick the shortest line
(36:10):
at the grocery store because we want to,
we, what is it?
Okay.
Like, that's still an environmental change.
And this is where, when I start to
talk about this and I've really have to
think through it, um, uh, real time of
like, okay, yes, the choosing the shorter line
in the grocery store.
Well, that's technically a behavior.
(36:31):
And this, by the way, also gets complicated.
The consequence very can become antecedents for something
else.
Um, which is a management can play into
that, which I'd love to dive into too.
Um, but by choosing the shorter line, you
could like get out of the store more
quickly.
And so that's changing your environment to change
(36:53):
the behavior and then consequence outcomes.
So humans do it all the time.
I had some thoughts.
I mean, I don't know if your brain
works this way, but my brain does like
thoughts come and go so quickly.
I was like, that's why I write everything
down.
I was like, I write, I'm constantly writing
(37:13):
why people are talking and you're like, interesting.
But that's because of my brain.
Like it's very unreliable.
Um, so then talk, talk us through these,
these talking points.
So you're at your client's house and you're
like, he's like, how do I get Rover
to stop jumping in the bin?
And you're like, Hey, I noticed this cupboard's
empty.
Do you mind if I put the bed
in there and you put the bed in
(37:33):
the cupboard?
And Rovers like not jumping in the bed
anymore.
And he's like, you're not a trainer.
Give me my money back.
Like he hasn't learned what that's wrong.
Cause that's how we have to do things.
Like, what are your talking points?
I think I would present them with three
options.
One is we just manage, we put it
in the cupboard and we don't think about
(37:55):
it again.
And your problem is solved.
If you don't feel like that's adequate, your
second option is to fully train the behavior.
100% of the time you are there
ready to use your C, use your consequence
to modify your dog's behavior.
And it will take you 24 seven.
You will have to be on 100%
(38:16):
of the time.
And it might take, I don't know how
long it could, it will likely take weeks
and we have to generalize all these different
conditions.
You'd be like, if this is the job
you want to do great.
And you, I will certainly help you do
that.
Remember, we have option A sitting here and
option C I would say is a variation
of both.
When I'm here, we can work on behavior
(38:37):
around the trash can.
When I'm not here and you're not doing
training, the trash can goes in the cupboard.
So, which I would argue, management is an
important step in any behavior modification training plan.
But so like whether the client is up
for doing it or not, I think we
need to implement it to prevent the rehearsal
of the behavior.
But I would essentially say like, all right,
(38:59):
do you want to train?
Cool.
This is what it's going to look like.
You know, I bet a weekend they'd say,
you know, the cupboard's looking pretty good by
now.
Yeah.
I mean, that's, that's kind of a, it's
got a word or got a name.
Next time you talk, I'm going to quickly
Google what their name is.
It's like when you create a, for lack
(39:20):
of a better word, argument where like it's
illogical for them to choose anything other than
the option you want to present depending on
the individual and the reinforcers for them.
Right.
And thank you for bringing up reinforcers for
them, because I think that ties into exactly
what you were saying.
(39:40):
And I quoted Dr. Susan Friedman in my
book, The Cultural Fog that people believe in
order for, I don't know, them to be
worthy dog guardians or for their dog to
be categorized as like a good dog that
they, their dog should be well-trained and
they're quote unquote well-trained and their dog
should know right from wrong.
And so they have this existing belief that
(40:02):
it is only successfully trained or properly dealt
with if they've, you know, addressed the issue
head on and that's where education can be
really valuable.
They, you know, it's only a problem for
me, if it's a problem for you, you
know, saying as the professional, I think people
find a lot of relief in hearing that
(40:22):
it's okay to just manage the behavior.
They're thinking, you know, I just walk, I
just turn around when I see a dog
and like, that really works for us, but
I know that we're avoiding the issue.
Okay.
Well, you said it works for you.
That's not a problem to me.
The, uh, I was multitasking then.
Oh, did you find the, did you find
the word?
(40:43):
I'm just going to go persuasive reasoning.
That sounds great.
Yes.
Use your persuasive reasoning.
Yeah.
That was just going to say, I think,
I think as dog trainers we get really
good at using persuasive reasoning, whatever that means.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think they're really reasonable.
I mean, we often get questions in our
(41:03):
community, like what do you say in this
situation to like here, like how I've navigated
anything else in terms of professionals working with
clients meeting the average client's expectations and where
management comes into it.
I mean, so much of our job is
expectation setting and education and, and meeting clients
(41:27):
where they are.
And so not forcing anything on them and
not saying, well, if you want me to
help your dog's reactivity, you have to stop
going on walks.
Like I think it's really important to us
to hear out client's concerns and validate their
concerns and explain to them, you know, why
actually this step would be beneficial.
Okay.
That doesn't work for you.
(41:47):
Will this work for you?
So that's going to be for anything you're
wanting to implement, but especially with management and
you know, you can try to pitch it
as like, look, you need a break from
this behavior.
Let's just try this for a month.
You know, we'll just try it for two
weeks, four weeks.
Let's reconvene at the end of that, while
we work on these other goals.
And you tell me if the management is
(42:08):
working for you or if you want to
try something else.
Do you think for that, that this changes
in different stages of people's career?
I feel like for somebody who is quite
new and I think it potentially gets lost
and what we call ourselves, like the dog
(42:29):
training industry, like you're brought in as a
trainer.
Do you think that it gets overlooked sometimes
when, when also we as trainers go on
with expectations about what we do?
I think, yeah, I think there were probably,
there was probably a lot of time where
I felt like if I was suggesting management
to a client and that was the only
(42:50):
solution we were doing, that that meant like,
I wasn't a good enough trainer.
I wasn't a an effective trainer.
Like I was cheating.
I wasn't really helping these people.
Like again, meanwhile, I'm solving their problems.
I think it can go both directions before
you kind of get more experience.
I think you can feel like, well, no,
we have to do it this way.
And so, you know, kind of my way
(43:11):
or the highway, even though we think that's
helping, that can come off really, you know,
abrasive and aversive to clients.
If we are, if we're not flexible at
all with our, with what we want our
clients to do in regards to management or
anything else.
And then it can also go like the
minute somebody gives us pushback, okay, okay.
You know, we won't do it.
We won't do it.
You're right.
Or like not even suggesting something because we
(43:34):
think it's not a good idea.
And time and experience, I think it can
address both of those as you get a
little bit more confident and comfortable in advocating
for the solutions that you recommend.
We're nearly towards the end of this episode.
There's two things I'm thinking about.
One, one is that I don't know how
(43:56):
to, whether simple is better, return to the
basics, lean on science.
Like there's, I think there's a message in
the conversation that we've managed to have today
that, and, and, and, you know, that a
book like yours can help remind us in
terms of one of the benefits of the
book.
So there's that.
And then I'm also, you know, a human
(44:18):
and I'm like, it's what I'm saying, like
super obvious.
Like if you were out there listening to
us go, duh, Ryan, like why are we
listening to you?
But I don't think it is.
But at the same time, I do think
it is.
Well, I think it's like one of those
things that it feels simple to us, or
(44:39):
it feels like it feels simple.
It might be simple.
And that's how I feel about management in
general.
And a lot of my training solutions these
days, I put something on the internet.
That's like the most basic, like if you
want your dog to do something more, give
them a treat, you know?
And people are like, Whoa, that's the best
advice I've ever heard.
You know?
So you can say something that feels so
straightforward and simple to you, but to somebody
(45:00):
else who's hearing it either for the first
time or presented that way, it is life
-changing.
It is totally like new and life-changing
information.
So I don't think we should, I think
sometimes we can feel pressed to we as
we meaning trainers to like find the next
thing or like, you know, advance this way,
(45:21):
or like find the cutting edge thing, but
there's nothing new under the sun.
So the more we can come back to
exactly like you said, the basics while really
getting thorough in our understanding of those and
our application of those, I think is really,
really beneficial.
And that's why management, while it feels like
this newer term and this newer concept, it
(45:42):
is all rooted in what we already know
about applied behavior analysis and the importance of
antecedents and manipulating antecedents to increase or decrease
the likelihood that a behavior occurs.
And it's making me think about the curse
of knowledge.
I don't know if that's accurate for this,
but if you're listening, don't know what I'm
talking about.
(46:02):
I'm talking about a phenomenon where you become
more fluent and proficient in your trade, the
skills that you have, and therefore you struggle
to see what others don't know.
And so what seems really simple to you
and you don't even think about potentially explaining
(46:23):
it is like you said, I think you
used the word revolutionary for others, but I'm
wondering if like, that's not really what I'm
talking about.
I think in terms of what this conversation
is, it's like, it's like that curse of
knowledge can make you potentially, even in yourself,
like overcomplicate things.
It makes me think about learning about degrees
(46:46):
of freedom.
So like you've got your piece of chicken
for your dog and like to give them
degrees of freedom, you know, they would have
like four different ways to earn that piece
of chicken.
And then they've got like three degrees of
freedom.
Right.
And like for the majority of us, like
we're not doing that, you know, but like
(47:07):
one way to earn the chicken when we're
doing like cooperative care or something.
But like, if you, if you hear that,
you can be like, yo, I'm a bad
trainer because I am not giving enough degrees
of freedom.
And like, maybe they're like over complication that
we get through the narratives that we hear
in a dog industry and the stories and
that constant search for shiny objects can actually
(47:29):
be detrimental to the basics.
Yeah.
I know I'm grasping for here.
I think that we forget that the simplicity
of using management sometimes.
Yeah, totally.
And I think yes, you're absolutely right.
Based on what you said, when it can
(47:50):
start to feel like if you over-complicate
it or you try to like learn all
these new things and then you're like, well,
yeah, this is, if it's just this simple
thing, is it, are you, what do you
mean that's really the answer?
You know, like, what do you mean that
that can really be the solution?
And I think that in addition to coming
(48:11):
back to the basics with the science, also
coming back to our goal of just like
helping people and dogs or helping animals, you
know, whether it's like animals in a zoo
or dogs or cats or whoever your course
is, whoever you're working with, like coming back
to your goals of helping them and their
families and their caretakers, like, great, simple to
(48:31):
me feels like a win-win.
Yeah.
Maybe we need to like separate the simplicity
of our roles, which is not obviously always
the case.
And as you see, we're not meeting needs
and it's not like there's other things to
address, but obviously clients have limited resources, money,
time, and interest in doing all of the
(48:51):
things.
So that can be challenging, I think for
people, but we need that other space where
we can get nerdy with our peers and
colleagues.
Definitely.
And that's like, I think like building our,
you're exactly right.
Like you said earlier, like building your knowledge,
you never want that to come.
Well, it, unfortunately it can inevitably come, but
losing sight of how, like, what was life
(49:13):
like before we knew about behavior, you know,
like we totally lose that perspective of being
a new learner being a, what do they,
they like call that like a beginner's mind.
Like we, we don't have, we will never
have that perspective again.
We will never not know about behavior.
And so putting ourselves in their shoes and
(49:34):
trying to appreciate their perspectives can be very
valuable when trying to mold our deep understanding
of the science and the effective interventions we
want to use.
Well, I've just learned that a beginner's mind
is a concept from Zen Buddhism, often called
Shoshin.
That refers, did you know that?
Shoshin?
(49:55):
It refers to approaching situations with an attitude
of openness, curiosity, and lack of preconceptions.
As if you were a complete beginner when
you, you're experienced.
Wow.
I love Shoshin.
Yeah.
Doesn't that sound great?
Let's call this episode like building your Shoshin.
Yep.
I'm just going to jot that down.
That pretty much brings us towards the end
(50:16):
of the podcast.
There's one last question.
I don't know if I told you this
beforehand, so if not, sorry for putting you
on the spot, but we always like to
ask our guests what they want to see
happen over the next five to 10 years
in our animal training industry.
So what would your thoughts be?
What do you want to see happen in
our industry?
I want people to continue to learn about
(50:38):
and come back to the applied behavior analysis,
quote unquote basics.
I want people to deepen their understanding of
the ABCs and use those, use that to
guide their, you can still tell stories about
what's going on, but do it from the
lens of the ABCs, please.
So I think learning more about that is
(51:00):
going to empower us to come up with
very effective, humane, kind solutions for our learners.
And the tide will raise all the ships
if we all learn that and get better
at that and get better at our practice
and become more effective in our kind interventions.
(51:20):
Yeah.
It makes me think some feedback I get
about animal training can be sometimes Juliana is
people want to see content that is not
so ABA focused, which, which I understand it.
And I guess I always in my mind
go, it's not an issue because we have
a dartboard to use Susan Friedman's metaphor of
(51:41):
behavior.
And we have all of the rings on
the dartboard.
And all of those rings are just different
sister sciences and we need the full dartboard,
but we can choose to have a bullseye.
That is in the case of our Academy
anyway, applied behavior analysis and doing ABCs.
And I feel like my knowledge on that
subject, when I look at people who listen
(52:06):
to my podcast and probably slam their forehead
into their palm and go, right, what are
you talking about when they're talking about behavior
analysis?
Cause they're like professors at university.
And I'm being arrogant thinking that universities that
apply behavior analysis at, sorry, professors of applied
behavior analysis at universities listen to this podcast,
who you are, shout out to you.
But like, yeah, we have our bullseye.
(52:28):
So I, I, I love that.
I think when we're thinking about learning and
we're thinking about behavior, that's like super important.
And obviously in saying that just, we're not
obviously taking away from all of the other
important sciences, which I think you're, you guys
have a really great bubble here, which like,
I guess that was, I don't know, maybe
I could have had a different perspective, but
(52:49):
I, like in the rest of the dog
training world, I were not as, um, I
think the industry as a whole still has
some ways to go in understanding this lens
and the benefit of this lens and the
inevitable nature of this lens.
Like you can't disconnect it from things.
And so people who are definitely in your
membership and probably listening to this podcast, get
(53:11):
it, but not everybody gets it.
And so go forth and spread the ABCs.
Please continue.
Yes.
Ripples definitely.
Well, this has been so much fun.
Can you tell people where they can go
to find your book where they can go
online to find you and get in touch?
Yeah.
Dog wise is the publisher.
So the dog wise website has the book,
manage it hacks for improving your dog's behavior.
(53:32):
You can find all my links and where
to contact me directly on Instagram, JW dog
training.
And, um, yeah, I'll see everybody online.
That's where I spend a lot of my
time.
Fantastic.
And we will of course, link to all
of that in the show notes as well.
Juliana, this has been a ton of fun.
So from myself on everyone listening, we appreciate
everything you do.
We appreciate you.
(53:52):
And we appreciate you coming on the show
today.
Thank you so much.
Thank you, Brian.
And thank you so much for listening as
well.
This is your host Ryan Cartlidge signing off
from this episode of the animal training Academy
podcast show.
We hope today's conversation inspired you and equipped
(54:13):
you with new tools for your trainer's toolbox.
Remember every challenge in training is an opportunity
to learn and sharpen your animal training geekery.
Embrace the rough patches, learn from them and
keep improving.
And don't forget the path to growing your
skills and expanding your knowledge continues beyond this
(54:36):
episode, visit www.atamember.com to join our
supportive membership where you will find a community
of trainers just like you.
Together we're making a huge positive difference in
the lives of animal and human learners worldwide.
(54:58):
Until next time, keep honing your skills, stay
awesome and remember every interaction with an animal
or human learner is your opportunity to create
ripples.
We're here cheering you on every step of
the way.
See you at the next episode.
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