June 16, 2025 • 58 mins
In this first installment of a two-part conversation, we welcome Juliana DeWillems - Certified Dog Behavior Consultant, Karen Pryor Academy faculty member, and founder of JW Dog Training - for a deeply honest and empowering discussion.
Juliana shares her unique journey into the world of animal training - from event planning at a humane society to discovering her calling through fostering rambunctious adolescent dogs. Unlike many, Juliana entered the field without first navigating aversive methods, drawn instinctively to positive reinforcement by both curiosity and compassion.
We also explore:
✅ What burnout looked and felt like for Juliana as a business owner and trainer
✅ How she reshaped her career (and life) to align with her strengths and values
✅ The emotional realities of working in a helping profession
✅ Why therapy, self-awareness, and redefining success are critical tools for sustainability
✅ The possibilities—and pitfalls—of building a digitally-based animal training business
Juliana’s insights will resonate with anyone who’s ever questioned their capacity to “do it all,” and her vulnerability provides a roadmap for building a career with more intention, peace, and joy. Whether you’re a seasoned pro or new to the field, this episode offers inspiration, validation, and hope for a thriving future.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:03):
Welcome to the Animal Training Academy podcast show.
I'm your host, Ryan Carledge, and I'm passionate
about helping you master your animal training skills
using the most positive and least intrusive approaches.
Here at ATA, we understand that navigating the
vast challenges you encounter in training requires a
(00:27):
comprehensive base of knowledge and experience.
It's common to face obstacles and rough patches
on your journey that can leave you feeling
overwhelmed and stressed.
Therefore, since 2015, we have been on a
mission to empower animal training geeks worldwide.
We've aided thousands in developing their skills, expanding
(00:51):
their knowledge, boosting their confidence, and maximizing their
positive impact on all the animal and human
learners they work with.
We are excited to do the same for
you.
Simply visit www.atamember.com, join our vibrant
(01:12):
community, and geek out with us.
And of course, in the meantime, enjoy this
free podcast episode as we explore new ways
to help you supercharge your training skills, grow
your knowledge, and build your confidence so that
you can craft a life that positively impacts
(01:32):
every learner you encounter.
But we will start today's episode where I'll
be talking to one Juliana De Willems.
Juliana is a certified dog trainer and dog
behavior consultant and the owner of JW Dog
(01:54):
Training in the Washington DC area.
She also serves as a Karen Pryor Academy
faculty member, teaching trainers about the principles of
behavior science and clicker training.
When she is not training private clients or
teaching her KPA students, Juliana works with brands
and media outlets to educate the public about
(02:15):
dog training and behavior.
Juliana is also the author of the book,
Manage It, Hacks for Improving Your Dog's Behavior.
So without further ado, it's my very great
pleasure to welcome Juliana De Willems to the
show today, who's patiently waiting by.
Juliana, thank you so much.
Ryan, thanks for having me.
(02:35):
This is great.
Well, I love these episodes, Juliana.
These episodes being ones where I finally get
to connect with a guest whom our audience
has been requesting for a while.
And to make it even better, when we
hosted your friend and co-worker, Ken Ramirez,
(03:00):
who was in our members-only area for
a webinar last month, he was tooting your
horn as well.
And so anyone Ken toots, I'm all about.
But let's dive straight into this episode, Juliana.
I was hoping that you could please take
us all back to where you first learned
about animal training, about positive reinforcement, and share
(03:23):
some stories with us from your behavior odyssey.
Definitely.
So I think like a lot of people,
my behavior journey starts quite early when I
was younger.
I went to college actually for animal science
because I've always loved animals.
I didn't want to be a vet because
I didn't want to do the schooling, but
I went through animal science and got to
(03:45):
skip all the tough stuff like the chemistry
and the bio, and instead took, I don't
know, livestock classes.
University of Maryland is a land-grant school,
so we had a really cool curriculum that
involved horses and animals, even on the University
of Maryland campus.
So I got to do a lot with
animals.
And then interestingly, right after college, I found
(04:08):
a job at the Humane Society by my
house.
And everyone said, oh my gosh, you went
into what you were doing in college, except
no, I was doing event planning and fundraising
at the Humane Society.
So I was definitely working adjacent to animals,
but my gosh, I was doing something that
I totally had never, ever done before.
(04:30):
I'd never had an internship, which is how
I got the job, like helping with events.
And suddenly I was in charge of event
planning and fundraising for this nonprofit.
But as many nonprofits go, it was a
very small organization.
And my event planning desk was directly next
to the foster desk.
So I would hear them making calls all
day long, can you foster this animal?
(04:51):
Can you help this animal?
And sure enough, at 21 years old, I
brought home my first foster dog, still living
with my parents.
And I of course had a soft spot
for the young adolescent rambunctious pit bull type
dogs that often find themselves in shelters for
a very long time.
And luckily got hooked up with the shelter
(05:12):
trainer who is a positive reinforcement care and
prior Academy graduate.
And she would help me with the dogs
I was fostering.
And every step of the way, she would
say, you have to come work for me.
Like you have an act for this.
You should really think about becoming a dog
trainer.
And I learned a lot through my foster
dogs pretty quickly.
I committed to a positive reinforcement journey.
(05:34):
Although I'm not quite sure, like I've never,
I've been a crossover trainer with horses, but
I've never taught with punishment with dogs.
And I'm not quite sure where I like
found the right path there.
I do remember, you know, watching Cesar Milan
and, and Victoria still well on TV in
high school and remember it or and thinking
(05:55):
to myself, yeah, this Victoria lady seems to
be making a lot more sense than this
guy who keeps talking about energy.
So right off the bat, probably with my
science background, I appreciated, you know, the science
-based positive reinforcement techniques.
So I stayed in development and nonprofit event
planning.
I worked for two different animal shelters for
(06:15):
about four years after college.
And then in my mid twenties, I finally
made the jump to leave the corporate world,
essentially, although obviously nonprofit, but the, the typical
like nine to five desk job world.
And I took a part-time job at
an animal shelter on the behavior team.
And then I started seeing clients part-time
and I did end up going where going
(06:35):
and working for that shelter trainer, Beth Mullen
of dog Latin dog training in the Washington
DC area.
She really took me under her wing and
gave me a job and it's been, and
that was 2014.
So 11 years, I went through KPA right
away.
Thank goodness, because that set me on the
track to really solid, you know, training mechanical
(06:56):
skills right off the bat, a pretty good
understanding about behavior.
Although a decade later, I think to myself,
wow, I really, there was a lot that
I didn't know.
But yeah, that pretty much started my career
and my love of positive reinforcement and being
in my mid twenties, living in a house
with a bunch of friends in DC, being
(07:18):
a dog trainer, it was a pretty crazy,
like I worked a lot, I played a
lot, but I got a lot of really,
really good experience being a dog trainer.
One of the main stories that I feel
like I hear on this show is that,
and yours is different.
I like different stories.
I like the same stories as well, because
I think it produces lots of podcast guests
(07:41):
for me, but also like lots of amazing
trainers.
And that story is I got a dog
and this dog had some issues and I
met a trainer and I used diversives and
it didn't work.
Then I read Don't Shoot the Dog, it
changed my life.
But you're a little bit different.
You have just gone directly, you bypassed the
(08:03):
aversive training.
And I'm the same.
And I know that I was just lucky
to connect with the right people.
And also like you, I think have some
internal dialogue going like this training doesn't feel
right.
And immediately seeing, and I think I'm not
like, I realise as I say that the
words are coming out of my mouth, like
(08:23):
that's going to sound judgmental to people who
maybe didn't see that.
I'm not saying anyone didn't see that, but
maybe the opportunities to see that just presented
themselves in different ways for me and for
you.
But then Juliana, I've always kind of felt,
and that's what I want to get your
thoughts on, I've always kind of felt, and
man, like this is a real weird thing
(08:45):
to say and it's going to sound like
wrong, but I always felt like I kind
of missed out.
Does that make sense?
Like I'm missing something.
Like I didn't, like I don't have the
appreciation, I'm not sure that's the right word,
the experience to see things as clearly maybe
(09:06):
as if I had like navigated that, those
other tools first.
Like have you ever thought that?
Yeah, you know, we don't have the perspective
of what it's like to maybe fully immerse
or try aversive tools.
Although I will say like, I definitely have
that with horses and it didn't, it actually
(09:26):
didn't click until many years into my positive
reinforcement journey.
So it's not like, oh, because I worked
this way with horses, I'm going to do
it differently with dogs.
It, again, like it actually took probably four
or five years for me to realize like,
whoa, wait a second, this is so different.
But one thing that I think about a
lot as positive reinforcement trainers, even those of
us who haven't worked with aversives, been the
ones who like deliver the unpleasant consequences or
(09:50):
use the coercion or whatever in training.
I think a lot of us, well, I'll
speak for myself, I trained this way because
I've experienced it myself.
And I think a lot of us like
find positive reinforcement training because we've been on
the other end of aversive behavior modification or
training.
And whether that is like having a really
(10:11):
bad boss or having a really bad coach,
or like maybe the way that our parents
who are doing their best tried to parent
us.
I think we're all, I think many of
us, and again, mostly only speaking for myself
here, we're drawn to positive reinforcement because we
do actually know more about coercive training and
training with punishment and corrections and aversive stimuli.
(10:35):
We're just, we just don't have as, if
we're not crossover trainers, we're not the ones
who have the experience delivering it.
So I don't know, maybe, I don't know
if that perspective of, you still, there's still
an understanding about it.
We just aren't, we just don't have as
much practice being the ones delivering it.
Thank goodness.
Yeah.
And I like how you said, I don't
(10:58):
know why I didn't click reinforcement training.
I don't know if that was an intended
pun, but I like that.
Oh, that's really funny.
Yeah.
Subconscious there.
Yeah.
And I just want to, I just, I'm
worried, Juliana, as we say this, that it's
coming across judgmental to people who didn't say
that.
So I just want to reiterate, even though
I've said it and I'm repeating myself here,
that there's zero judgment here or zero, we're
(11:20):
all just taking different paths.
But I've never really thought about that before.
So what you're saying is that potentially, potentially
that, and I have to check my understanding
here because I think you could see my
face while people listening can't see my face,
but as my wife walked in the room,
needing something from me, just then I lost
my track of thought momentarily.
But what you're saying is that maybe we
(11:40):
had experienced it rather than being the deliverer.
I hadn't thought about this before, but we've
experienced it.
Yeah, I think a lot of us are
like, we've experienced this again through like parenting
or, or, or coaching or, um, who, for
whatever reason, there's, we've, we've been on the
receiving end of, of teaching through, uh, punishment
(12:02):
or aversive consequences.
And we know we don't like it, you
know?
So I, I, I feel like many of
us can be drawn to positive reinforcement because
they think there are two camps.
There's like, I went through it.
So you go through it too.
And then there's people who are like, I
went through it.
So I want to make sure that the
beings in my life that I have influence
(12:24):
over don't have to go through it too.
We're going to jump forward, but that in
your story now, but then we're going to,
um, acknowledge that by doing that, there's a,
there's a big gap, uh, in your journey
that we haven't talked about.
So we will circle back backwards.
We're going to go forwards and then we're
going to go backwards.
So, and I've got logic in my head
as to why I'm doing this.
(12:44):
So be with me, bring us up to
speed in terms of 2025.
Tell us, tell us kind of what your
life looks like now.
Right now I run the business that I
opened actually right at the start of COVID.
So I opened, I worked for that initial,
that mentor who pulled me under her wing
in 2014.
I worked for her for six years, and
(13:06):
then I started my own company, JW dog
training in about, you know, five months after
the pandemic started.
I think we were all seeing that boom
of dog training inquiries and what a horrific
time for the world and like what a
time to be a dog trainer, a pet
professional.
And so it ended up being a really
(13:27):
great time to kind of finally jump out
on my own.
I had just gotten to the point where
I felt like I had enough interest and
experience and wanting to do things my way.
And I really, and it still very much
felt like a leap of faith.
So I started that in again, 2020, it's
been, it'll be five years in September.
(13:48):
I very quickly was able to grow a
team, which came with very much it's learning
experiences and lessons.
And I was working very, very hard as
a dog trainer through 2020.
When I was working under that other company,
because I just had to show up to
my clients and leave and I would get
paid, man, the stress of running a business.
(14:11):
So I was trying to maintain my client
load, which was already a lot and run
my business.
And I had like a major crash out,
basically at the beginning of 2021, which was
kind of the start of me slowly starting
to back away from seeing clients as frequently.
So, and that was also when I started
teaching for KPA and I maintained doing both,
(14:31):
like still having a pretty decent client load
teaching KPA until 2023, I had kind of
another crash out.
And all of these are just getting me
closer to, I think the life that I
want to live and what I want my
day-to-day to look like, which is,
I don't want to be on the road
a bunch anymore.
I don't want to feel over, I don't
want to feel too busy.
I don't want to feel overwhelmed.
(14:52):
And so I've been slowly shaping my life
to look that way.
And I'm lucky to do a lot of
work from home.
I do a lot of social media work.
I do, I have my KPA work, which
is mostly from home, except for the in
-person workshops.
I run my team that I still have.
I'm so grateful to have some incredible trainers
who work for me.
And then I see clients like two or
(15:12):
three days a week, but it's just so
much less than before.
So I'm just really throwing myself into as
much kind of virtual work as I can
as a dog trainer, and also doing my
best to tell others you can do this
too, because man, that life on the road
can be really, really challenging and lead to
burnout really quickly.
(15:33):
Right.
So my reason for asking this question is
still real, but your answer has made me
want to prioritize some other bits and pieces.
So this conversation is going to be all
over the place today, everyone.
And there is something that is front of
my mind, which is why I'm circling back
to this particular part.
(15:54):
And that is, you said you had some
major crash outs.
Now, the reason why, I haven't heard anyone
phrase it as a crash out before, but
you used the word burnout, and I think
you're kind of talking about the same thing.
And the reason it's front of mind is
we had a post in our online community
(16:15):
about this yesterday, and I went through it
myself.
I crashed out in 2020.
Potentially, there was some similar antecedents for my
crash out and your crash out.
But so I want to talk about that,
if that's okay with you.
You don't have to, you can say-
I'd love to.
No, I think we need to talk about
this and normalize it, because I think a
(16:35):
lot more of us experience than we realize.
Or when we do experience it, we're like,
what the heck is this?
Because nobody talks about it.
Well, exactly.
Exactly.
So that's great, because the post in our
online community, and gratitude to our ATA members,
the ones in our members-only Facebook group,
who jumped in there to offer support and
(16:56):
share some thoughts.
But it was exactly what you just said.
Somebody saying, what is this?
What is burnout?
How do I know?
Does it go away?
Which leans into the idea of just that
we need to normalize it more, because I'm
assuming, potentially incorrectly, but I don't think so,
(17:17):
that if one of our members is asking
that, then others are thinking that as well.
And one of the challenges that, I jumped
in and shared my thoughts, and have to
go back in later today as well.
But I'm not a mental health professional, nor
I have any certifications or qualifications in that
area.
I just had my experience.
So I speak from that.
But one thing I've realized is that a
(17:39):
pillar of my work in the animal training
industry, and our use of vocabs, is like
when we're talking about terms, there's value in
pausing and defining what we mean when we
say terms.
So we ensure that the recipient of the
conversation we're having is on the same page
as us, or at least understands what we
(18:01):
talk about.
So burnout, I think, is the same.
Burnout can mean so many different things for
so many different people.
So this kind of makes the question hard
to answer when it's posed in that way,
because it's so individualized.
But I was wondering, for you, what did
that look like?
When you say crash out, what can you
see?
Definitely, yes, I definitely mean burnout.
(18:22):
But when I think about, when I look
back at what actually happened, burnout to me,
it is a label that describes, I don't
know, what it sounds like, losing your flame,
losing your passion, losing your energy, losing your
enthusiasm.
And what I experienced was this, again, I
(18:43):
can only feel like I can explain as
a crash out, where just things really, really
started to pile up.
I had a lot of symptoms that were
really challenging.
And it basically all came to a head.
So what I was experiencing was, it was
really, really, I was really good when I
would show up to my clients.
But if I tried to do any admin
work, or anything, I remember my fingers just
(19:06):
sitting over the keys, and I just couldn't
type.
I couldn't do my work.
And for years, I could do my work,
and I was fine, and I was very
productive.
But I got to this point where I
just couldn't do the important admin tasks, which
again, this was right when I opened my
business.
So my admin tasks had increased significantly.
I just couldn't do it.
(19:27):
And it was like pulling teeth.
And it was like, which I experience now
at sometimes, like if I go too late
in the day, and I find myself really
moving slowly, or like, you know, clicking through
different tabs, or pulling up Instagram a lot.
I'm like, okay, whoa, I'm not being productive
right now.
Like, this is not, I can't keep doing
this.
But it was again, just like, really magnified
at this, it happened essentially over winter break.
(19:49):
And I had this 10 days off, which
was really good, except I had this big
commitment to do like, I had to finish
my Tag Teach course before I could start
teaching KPA.
And I had assigned myself like one day
during break to work.
And every other day, I would have off.
And I remember starting that day, and I
just like couldn't do it.
I was so overwhelmed.
And I ended up on the phone with
my mom.
And I just started crying, which was like,
(20:12):
again, not normal behavior for me.
Like, I was just so overwhelmed.
And that was a really, really big sign
to me that this is not sustainable.
This is not okay.
I can't, you know, you can't work yourself
out of that.
And what I found is when I've hit
points like that, where my burnout where I'm,
I can't show up for myself, I'm no
(20:33):
longer showing up well for clients, either.
The thought of like taking on more clients,
or like helping more people was so aversive
to me.
All of those were signs that I needed
to do significant change.
What I ended up doing was raising my
rate significantly, which at least offered me more
reinforcement for the work I was doing.
And then also cutting back on my schedule.
(20:53):
So making more money and working less surprise
that helps quite a bit.
Yeah.
So the other thing that we talked about,
well, firstly, thank you for sharing.
Secondly, sorry that you experienced that.
Thirdly, would I be correct in assuming that
now in 2025, you can reflect on that?
(21:14):
And there's positives from that in terms of
like how to navigate life?
Definitely in the sense that every time that
I've every time where I've met with so
much resistance, and so much challenge to me,
I take that as information that what I'm
doing isn't working.
And so both of my major crash outs
have resulted in me doing pretty significant pivot
(21:36):
pivots, whether it's like initially, it was just
kind of a major shift in scheduling.
And just, again, changing my rate so that
at least for the amount of work I
was doing, I felt like it was worth
it, more worth it.
And then the second one in 2023, I
was really questioning if I even wanted to
continue being a dog trainer.
(21:57):
I mean, I was at the point where
I was like, do I need to look
up how to be a real estate agent?
Then I'm like, no, I'm going to be
back at the same issue where I'm in
charge of my job.
I wanted to not have a traditional nine
to five and also not have the burden
of working for myself at the time.
But again, ultimately, when I realized how unhappy
I was, I was like, okay, I have
(22:17):
to make a change.
And every shift has, again, taken me closer
to the life I want, which is a
life of ease, a life of fulfillment, a
life of peace, and doing what I love
and not what doing what really fills my
cup and not what empties my cup all
under the hat of dog training.
(22:39):
But there are some things within dog training
that no longer serve me right now.
I might come back to them, but really
focusing on the stuff that I do like
doing.
Well, I think this is all super important
and likely relevant for the listeners.
I've had that thought and I think it's
an entrepreneurial one where a nine to five
(23:01):
sounds pretty good.
Paid sick days?
What?
Paid vacation?
Oh my gosh.
Yeah.
And if you do something that's potentially not
as emotive as caring about the experiences of
other Earthlings, then hypothetically in your mind, you're
like, well, I can leave it at the
(23:22):
door when I come home and I don't
have to worry about where my next paycheck
is coming in and I can cover all
my bills because I know what I'm going
to be earning.
But you push through that and many don't,
I think, which is sad, which is why
I'm saying it's important because we want positive
(23:44):
reinforcement trainers teaching positive reinforcement out there.
Do you have any input?
And I'll tell you why I'm asking this
question.
Firstly, obviously, because I think it's going to
be helpful for our listeners.
But secondly, recently I've done an online strength
(24:04):
finder.
Now, it's obviously subjective, right?
I can't accurately 100% describe you.
I don't think it's very scientific or anything
like that, but it was very helpful for
me.
You fill out a whole bunch of questions
and it kind of suggests what your strengths
are.
And then the idea is to lean into
that.
(24:25):
So yeah, obviously there's more ways than this,
but if we were to make it really
simplistic, we could say that there's two ways
of doing things.
You could work to improve your weaknesses or
you could play into your strengths.
And so it's helped me identify what my
strengths are and set up my life to
(24:45):
ensure that I'm leveraging them.
Because that's fresh in my mind.
It made me my ears perk up when
you talked about doing what fills your cup
and then what doesn't fill your cup.
Was there any systematic way that you kind
of worked through that?
Or was it more just based on your
emotions and kind of what you're feeling?
How did you navigate that space?
(25:07):
I love that you did that.
And I love that you are starting the
conversation that, of course, we see our learners
as individuals and we have to see ourselves
as individuals.
And where this starts is not necessarily looking
at the person next to you, your dog
training colleague and going, well, they do things
like that.
Or they do primarily private training or they
do primarily group classes.
That must be what I should be doing.
(25:27):
And seeing absolutely, yes.
What are you good at?
What do you like doing?
Because guess what?
You can stick to just those things.
For me, it was very much a lot
of self-awareness and being very tuned into
myself and really listening to myself and not
when something felt really hard or challenging or
(25:48):
draining, not being like, well, I just need
to push through.
Which actually, by the way, I did do
for a while.
I was getting to the point where I
didn't want to do as much training.
And then I saw a speaker at Clicker
Expo who was like, you can learn a
lot.
And he did this example of he's walking
in a circle and he's moving one foot.
You can learn a lot, but then you
only go one direction.
(26:09):
And you can do a lot of training
and then you only go to the other
direction.
So you need to be doing both.
You need to be learning and training.
And at that Clicker Expo two years ago,
I'm like, shoot, I really do need to
be doing more training.
Even though at this point, seeing private clients
and problem-solving with private clients is something
I found really draining.
The problem-solving piece is just, it got
(26:32):
really, really not enjoyable for me anymore.
But I started to take clients.
So again, this was 2023, pre-crash out.
I started to continue to take clients thinking
like, oh, I just need to do this
more.
I need to keep my practice up to
make sure that I still feel really competent
doing it.
And that's what it is.
And surprise, that didn't go well.
(26:52):
I was really not enjoying the clients.
They were perfectly fine people, but my heart
wasn't in it anymore.
So I had to really, really listen to
that.
And I've been in therapy for a decade
and I was talking to my therapist about
it.
I'm like, I need a business coach.
I need to talk to somebody about what
I can be doing instead of this because
(27:12):
this isn't working anymore.
And I think she very gently said to
me, okay, yes, we can look into that.
And just see what happens if you keep
exploring this here in therapy.
And sure enough, over that summer of 2023
and into 2024, yes, therapy helped me discover
a lot about myself, my identity, what felt
(27:33):
good to me, what didn't feel good to
me, what my true real goals for my
whole life and my being was, not just
my business goals.
And through that work, I started to, my
business and my personal life have slowly started
to align and not feel as much in
(27:54):
friction.
So I would really say it was just
like a lot of personal work that I
did to find out what I really wanted
my life to look like and how I
could make that happen.
I feel like everyone should be in therapy.
Yes, I definitely agree.
What a sweeping, over-generalized statement, right?
(28:14):
I know, but we're still not at the
point yet where we've like over, you know,
when nobody talks about therapy and then too
many people talk about therapy, or like too
many people go to therapy, like we're not
there yet.
So I think we can still keep pushing,
like go to therapy.
Yeah, I think it's a really interesting space.
My biggest strength, Juliana, was futuristic.
(28:35):
So it's like, I think in the future.
Fascinating.
And I told my wife about this and
she's like, because the pro of that is
like, I can leverage that now, like I
brought that idea into my consciousness.
But like, the con of that is that
it can be really overwhelming for people who
don't think like that, when like I focus
(28:56):
on that.
And like my mindset and my goals and
my work and my actions are based on
the future.
So my wife really agreed with that.
Oh my god, that's so, isn't that so
validating when you tell somebody, like when I
come home from therapy and I talk to
my wife about what we talked about, she's
like, duh.
Yeah, yeah.
(29:16):
Okay, you do see me.
Well, my first one was like competitive and
I was like, I don't agree with that
at all.
Like I was reading the thing, I was
like, no, no, that's not me.
And I said to my wife, I didn't
say that it was, she knew I was
doing a string finder thing, but I didn't
say that it was related to that.
I was like, do you think I'm competitive?
She's like, hell yes.
And I'm like, okay.
Oh, that's amazing.
So, so, so maybe I am.
(29:39):
But yeah, I think it's interesting.
One idea I came up with was just,
I find technology super interesting.
Like I love all of this AI stuff.
And I just, I've noticed that more than
anyone really that I've come across, like I'm
just fascinated by it and I use it
and I explore it.
So like doing that, it's just one action
I can take to like lean into who
(30:01):
I am.
But with regards to therapy, that's interesting.
I saw a quote from, and people are
going to love me and hate me for
this because, because rightly so there's a lot
of anxiety around it.
I think like it's, I think if it
goes the wrong way, it can be incredibly
dangerous.
And I think it already is, to be
honest with you.
Interesting.
(30:23):
But someone from Facebook, I don't know, it
was like Mark Zuckerberg.
And I know like Mark Zuckerberg, you have
great feels about that guy, but like, it
doesn't matter.
Like I'm not like advocating for the source
of this quote.
I'm just saying it was a quote.
Thank you.
And anyway, it said like in the future,
like your five biggest friends are going to
(30:43):
be AI.
And like, I know, right?
Yeah, exactly.
Bad feeling.
I think you summed up what the listeners
of this show feel.
And for me, I'm not, I'm not advocating
for it.
I'm not saying that's good.
I'm not saying it's bad.
I'm just saying like, because I've like, I'm
learning this about myself and I'm leaning into
it.
I'm exploring it more.
And I'm like, Oh, what does that mean?
Like, I think that's interesting for therapy as
(31:03):
well.
Like, and, and the role of therapists and
your access to, because one of the sticking
points, the therapy, right.
Is cost.
Yeah, it's a sticking point for everything.
There are often pay walls between us and
good resources, right.
Whether you're talking about dog training or therapy,
(31:24):
it's like, there are always going to be
accessibility issues.
And, and, you know, it speaks to like
healthcare issues in many different countries and therapy
should be much more easily accessible.
And, you know, I now feel like, I
don't know, if you have some money allocated
to put towards like your business and your
life, that might be a good place to
(31:45):
put it maybe before the, well, I don't
know, everybody's different, but for me, it was,
I'm glad I invested in myself that way
before, you know, paying for some crazy, expensive
business coach.
Yeah.
I think it's smart.
And I think it's brave.
I think, you know, I don't want to
say that too fast.
I think it's brave.
I think it's confronting.
Is it confronting?
Did you find it confronting?
(32:05):
What to be in therapy?
Yeah.
Yeah.
But like, I love that.
I love that.
Like, again, my wife says about me, she's
like, Oh, if there, if there's something to
figure out, you'll figure it out.
Like, I, I love like digging deep, figuring
out why I am the way that I
am, why I like behave the way that
I do.
(32:26):
And one might say like, why my antecedents
are the way that they are.
I, I find it so, I find it
so empowering.
And for me, the reinforcement has been so,
so reinforcing.
Like I, again, live this life that is
just so much, again, more peaceful and so
in line with what I've always wanted.
(32:47):
And so like the quote unquote result that
I've seen now, remember everyone I've been in
therapy for a decade, but it has just
been so incredibly beneficial for me and has
allowed me to live this wonderful life.
And so, yeah, I think you have to
be ready to confront hard stuff and my
gosh, what a beautiful outcome it can produce.
(33:07):
I think it's funny.
As evidenced by Juliana de Willems.
I'm just glad that you are, you know,
I think like hearing men talk about therapy
is also really important and I am the
only male at positive reinforcement events frequently.
Well, yeah.
(33:28):
So there's a lot to talk about with
that too, but it's good that, um, you
know, I'm just grateful that you've opened up
the conversation and, um, and also shared about
your strengths.
I think that is really cool.
And I find it so interesting, this idea,
because as somebody who's like worked so hard
to like live in the present, this idea
that you are so future focused, you're totally
(33:52):
right, man, that I'm like, I'm like, wait,
wait, no, I'm trying to like live in
the now not live in the, in the
who knows when.
So that's so interesting that you've learned that
about yourself and that you're able to lean
into it.
Yeah.
And I, and it energizes me.
So, you know, when you say fill your
cup, like, and then back to, uh, a
(34:13):
conversation that you'd list that we'd probably do,
but we've talked about like these podcasts we're
recording and cause for the listener, we can
see each other right now.
You guys can't cause you're just listening to
audio, but Juliana's like, why don't you stick
that on YouTube?
If that's okay to talk about a push
before we push the record.
But, um, like that, like I found in
the past that that drains me, like the
(34:35):
social media side, um, which is, I guess
something that you and I didn't talk about,
but yeah, like thinking about the future, like
it energizes me.
Um, but yeah, it can be totally overwhelming
for people because we just organize our wills
Juliana.
Cause we've got chickens in the house and
my wife's like, Oh my God, like, stop
it.
I'm like, no.
Anyway, for you, social media fills your cup.
(34:59):
Would that be correct?
Yeah.
I very surprisingly love social media.
Now this is, this is really interesting.
So I am JW dog training on Instagram
and I've grown quite a big following there
over since opening my business, um, in 2020.
And this is such an interesting kind of
(35:19):
like case study in you, you get more
of what you focus on.
So I'm very like, I'm like, I'm just
very nice, but my page is meant to
be very positive and welcoming and for better
or worse.
Like I think there's, it's important when people
are out there yelling about harmful training and
that's not what I do.
(35:41):
So I've created these really wonderful corners of
the internet.
And, uh, I get to connect with people
who love their dogs, who want to learn
more about how to help their dogs.
And so I just have really enjoyed it.
I've, it's been a really cool creative outlet
for me.
I love making videos.
I love making posts.
It, again, the reinforcement has totally been there
(36:02):
in many different ways.
Like it's cool to see your audience grow
so much.
The opportunities I've gotten from it are really
incredible.
So as of right now, it totally still
fills my cup.
And I actually just, I told myself I
would never join TikTok ever.
Like, I'm like, if I've joined TikTok, something
is wrong, but I actually joined TikTok for
a couple of months ago, like totally randomly
(36:23):
on a whim.
I'm like, let's see what happens.
And it's like also going great.
I had this idea that TikTok was like,
you know, dog talk.
Everybody talks about how problematic the dog trainers
on TikTok are, which they are a lot
of them.
Gen Z is going to grow up thinking
like all dogs have to wear prong and
shock collars.
And, but again, like I've had this really
(36:44):
pleasant experience where people are like really grateful
for my content.
They're really nice about my content.
They're not combative.
They're not mean.
Like it's just been really, really lovely.
And again, the reinforcers for the business certainly
don't hurt.
That's why I originally wanted to jump forward
in your story.
And some of the other things you talked
(37:06):
about when you were talking about that was
a couple of things.
Firstly, from one predominantly digitally based business owner
to another, I appreciate that I have to
keep my sword sharp.
That's, that's my metaphor for saying you don't
(37:26):
train.
And I know that like, I know my
sword gets blunt and I want to be
out there going to clients' houses or work
in the zoos or whatever I'm doing to
keep that sword sharp.
But you said as well, one thing you
(37:46):
wanted to communicate that I took away from
what you're saying is for the listeners of
the show, like it's possible to be a
professional animal trainer.
I mean, you and me are evidence of
that, but it's possible to be positive reinforcement
trainer and have a predominantly digital business.
Did I interpret correctly what you were saying
(38:08):
before?
I just want you to speak to that
for the listeners of the show.
I certainly think so.
I think, you know, again, COVID was a
really horrible time for a lot of people
and it showed, it thrusted us all on
the internet and it showed the effectiveness of
training online.
And I think absolutely you can start to
pivot yourself online.
(38:29):
It definitely takes a different kind of work.
Like we're all, we all know how to
like market to our local vets and, you
know, go to community events and stuff like
that.
So you do have to work very hard
to create a different type of audience and
find ways, whether it's Instagram, Facebook, or TikTok,
which they all have very different audiences and
(38:50):
different pros and cons of showing up digitally
and then converting that audience to paid clients,
whether it's like one-to-one training or,
man, there's a whole world out there of
people who sell like digital products, you know,
self-paced courses are really popular now, or
(39:11):
like hybrid courses where you set, you do,
it's like an eight week course, and then
you have X amount of seats and you
meet a few times during that process, but
a lot of it's prerecorded.
So really trying to reduce the human have
to put towards, you know, as trainers, like
are this one-to-one, like one hour
of our life is per money that, that
(39:35):
limits how much money we can make.
And so you, there are a lot of
ways, especially when you go digital to scale,
you do have to educate yourself on these
new ways of doing things.
You know, memberships are huge now, obviously, you
know, all about that.
You were there doing memberships before the rest
of the world was, but those can be
hugely beneficial.
Those can be a really great way to
make your services more accessible.
(39:55):
If you are doing primarily one-to-one
and that cost feels out of some people's
budgets, offering a lower cost membership is a
great option.
It's again, like a great way to scale.
And this is, these are just things that
I'm starting to really explore more and trying
to maximize.
And what's important is to have the mindset
that it is possible because if you tell
(40:15):
yourself, no, it's not possible.
I can only ever make money as a
dog trainer by being in people's homes or
teaching classes that, you know, the local pet
store, like you have to have the mindset
that it is possible and you will find
a way to make it work because if
you believe that you can do it, like
all the other people out there who are
doing it, whether it's dog trainers or other
professions, you will find a way to do
(40:36):
it and to make money digitally and being
online.
Do you feel passionate about this?
Like, well, the reason I ask is because
we're dog trainers or animal trainers or not
necessarily for myself and maybe for you to
listen, not necessarily dogs, but working with behavior
(40:57):
and non-human learners and human learners, obviously.
And then if you want to do that
for your life, then you need to learn
how to monetize that.
And then you said earlier, you know, obviously
with social media, there's those reinforcers for your
business.
But for me anyway, like I find it
(41:19):
interesting and see that I learn things from
10 years in business that I can share
with others that maybe help them.
And that's kind of where I get energized.
Like, is it the same for you?
Yeah, I love talking about it because I
feel like, well, one, a rising tide raises
all ships, like positive reinforcement trainers doing well
(41:42):
is good for all of us.
And I'm like, go forth and live your
best life.
Like whatever that looks like as a dog
trainer, I want us to stop being overworked.
I want us to stop being underpaid.
I want us to, you know, stop telling
ourselves that like, we have to be miserable
in order to survive in this industry.
Like, no, you can make your, you can
(42:02):
make your career look however you want.
And it might take some creativity.
It definitely will take kind of some trust
and a mindset shift, but it's totally possible.
And I, and I want to just like
yell that from the rooftops, because again, I'm
tired of seeing my friends crashing out like
I did.
And so if we can help other people
be successful and do well, we're only going
(42:24):
to be helping more and more people and
dogs and spread the word of positive reinforcement
more or less.
We forget like if the more people burn
out and leave this industry, the they're not,
they're not able to help anyone, you know?
So we have to keep people in this
industry and excited about what they're doing.
A rising, a rising tide raises all ships.
(42:46):
Is that what you're saying?
Yeah.
The rising tide raises all ships.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I mean, it's exactly what it says,
but it's like when one, when one positive,
one, when one positive reinforcement trainer does well,
like it, it helps all of us because
they're out there connecting with their clients and
their clients are saying, wow, that positive reinforcement
(43:06):
thing really worked.
And they visit with their, you know, relative
in another state and go, I did this
positive reinforcement thing.
You should find a positive reinforcement trainer.
Like it's a ripple effect.
And it, it is like the success of
one of us is the success of all
of us.
And we should all be kind of propping
each other up and helping each other be
successful.
Here at Animal Training Academy, Giuliano Ripples is
(43:28):
our word.
We have another podcast show called Ripple Makers.
So I feel like my job is done.
You mentioned ripples.
We're good.
But again, more evidence that I need to
actually share videos from this episode, Giuliano, because
I think this is the third time I've
said this.
I asked Giuliano if she was positive.
(43:50):
Ben, I don't know if you knew what
you were doing, but you were like pumping
your fist as you were talking then so
clearly.
I'm a little passionate.
But cool.
I think we'll circle back and I want
to circle back because I think many people
would look at the opportunity to co-present
frequent live sessions of Ken Ramirez as like,
(44:13):
you know, like if I do that, like
my life is complete.
Talk us through what it's like to work
with Ken and what I can only imagine
participating as you do as co-host in
or on the Life on the Ranch sessions.
(44:36):
You know, you tick like my upskilling part
of my needs to make sure I'm walking
circles in both ways to use your metaphor
from before.
It's complete.
Like, how did you land that gig?
And what's it been like?
What's that journey been like?
And tell us about Life on the Ranch,
just in case the listener of the show
(44:58):
doesn't know what I'm talking about.
Thank you.
Yeah.
Life on the Ranch is a free monthly
broadcast that Ken started in during COVID, April
2020.
He, you know, like everybody were at home,
he's like, right, guess I'll get on live.
And he did it once by himself.
And then he realized I might need some
help.
So now it's the first Thursday of every
(45:20):
month and we have different guests and it's
like the coolest thing.
And we've been going for five years crazy.
And so one thing about me in my
career is like, I've always worked really, really
hard to kind of like make myself known.
So anytime I go to Clicker Expo, I
try to introduce myself to people.
(45:41):
I used to have this thing, man, I'm
really like breaking the fourth wall here.
I used to always wear this specific shirt
the first day.
It was like this really bright blue and
it had our company logo on it, because
like, I wanted to be remembered as like
the person wearing the blue.
And so I'd always did that.
And sure enough, like when you're Kathy's today,
I was like, oh my gosh, I remember
that blue from last year.
(46:02):
And I'm like, oh, you do?
And so I, I have always made an
effort at like making sure people know who
I am.
And I also want to mention this because
I think there can be this misconception that
like, if you're good enough, people will find
you.
And of course you have to have like
the skills or whatever people are looking for.
And there's a huge piece to putting yourself
(46:22):
out there.
And I also very much do want to
acknowledge that I'm like a young white woman
who like generally meets society's beauty standards.
So I have a lot of privilege in
where I'm showing up to these spaces and
that's can't like be glazed over.
That's a really important piece to why, yes,
I knock on the door, but a lot
of the reason why people open the doors,
because again, I'm, I am very privileged.
(46:46):
So that being said, I would, I went
to live from the ranch one year and
I'm sorry, I went to the ranch with
Ken one year.
So they have classes at the ranch.
And that was the first time that I
like really got to know Ken face to
face.
We did a week class.
It was really cool at that time.
I think I wanted to become KPA faculty.
(47:07):
So again, instead of waiting around for them
to say, we're looking for faculty, I said,
are you looking for faculty?
Let me send you my resume.
I sent Ken my resume because he was
basically like, yeah, just email me your resume.
While I'm at the ranch, I sent him
my resume.
And on that has like the TV stuff
that I've done because I've, I've done a
decent amount of news stuff and pet TV
(47:30):
stuff, which again, I would like email the
stations, be like, do you want to stack
a thing on clicker training?
This will help your audience with dogs.
And so he knew I did TV stuff.
And we talked about it a little bit
that week, fast forward to when COVID started.
Clicker Expo was the weekend, everything shut down.
Clicker Expo was a big networking time for
(47:51):
me, as I've said, like it was a
time where I really wanted to put myself
in front of people who had influence to
see like what it could do for my
career.
And I had to make the decision that
Thursday I was leaving, the world was starting
to shut down.
I had to make the decision.
Am I going, am I getting on the
plane or not?
Like they might not be safe.
(48:11):
It might get canceled.
Am I going or not?
And I ultimately, ultimately made the decision not
to go, which thank goodness I did because
it did end up getting canceled.
But I was so devastated because I was
like, I missed my big networking event.
Like this is so upsetting.
And you know, this is like really it's
once a year where all these people are
in one place, seeing all my colleagues, seeing
all my training friends.
And like, I missed it.
(48:32):
This is really going to like, who knows
like what this will or won't do for
my career, but man, what a missed opportunity.
Well, like a month later, I get this
email from Ken and he says, we're doing
this live from the ranch thing.
And we realized that I need a cohost.
And I know that you've done your TV
stuff and you have some experience doing your
(48:52):
webinars and your TV stuff, which he knew
because I had sent him a resume the
summer prior.
And would you be interested in co-hosting
with me for this one episode?
Basically, he's like, we're probably going to switch
around co-hosts, but like, do you want
to do it with me this one time?
I'm like, Ken Ramirez is asking me to
co-host something.
Oh my gosh.
(49:12):
Like, of course, you know?
And that was our first, that was our
first one.
And so he started in April, but we
were doing it weekly then.
So I started the second week and the
rest is history.
It's been five years since then.
So yeah, it's an incredible, incredible opportunity.
My gosh.
Yes.
Well, I'm not, it's like so much continuing
(49:35):
education, just like slammed into this, like so
much so frequently every week that first year.
And then every month since then, and we,
it's been incredible to be able to talk
to the guests.
I've been able to improve my interview skills,
my thinking on the fly skills.
It's, it's such an incredible opportunity.
Yeah.
Well, congratulations on, I pause there for a
(49:58):
reason and I'll circle back to why soon.
Congratulations on getting that gig on five years.
That is cool.
I feel the same with hosting two webinars
a month in ATA.
Like I just, often I'm doing logistics and
helping people get in and solving challenges for
tech problems with people.
(50:19):
But like, you know, just even through like
distracted participation, like without just doing my job,
like it's just like an ever expanding knowledge
base.
Totally.
So much information.
But one thing I want to stick back
to it and that's why I pause and
I said, congratulations.
(50:39):
Is I, well first day, like I remember
back in 2010 or something, 2011, maybe I
was at San Diego Zoo and I met
some of the bird show team and they
were like, Oh yo, are you looking for
work in North America?
(51:01):
You should email this guy.
So I emailed him that night.
And then I went back to the zoo
the next day and someone was going to
take me around the park and they're like,
Oh, just wait here in the cafe with
this guy.
And the guy was like the guy that
I'd emailed and he was sat there and
I was like, Oh, Hey.
And then like, we're talking about him.
We're talking, I'm talking to him and we're
getting on his golf cart and we're driving
(51:22):
around the zoo and his wife calls who
also works at the zoo.
And she's like, Oh, we've got this awesome
resume from this guy in New Zealand.
And he, and I don't know that like
she was saying that, but all I could
hear him say was like, Oh yeah, I'm
sitting next to him right now, like driving
around San Diego Zoo.
And I was like, what is happening?
That's incredible.
And then anyway, like he rang me like
(51:42):
a week later and offered me a job
and I ended up moving to Canada for
eight months and like working in this huge
bird show over there.
But my point was like, was I lucky
or was I like, like I was in
North America.
I was at the bird show.
Like I was going home on my holiday,
like sending resumes.
Was I lucky?
I think yes.
Like what are the chances of that?
(52:03):
But like also like it's always, it's both.
It's like, yeah, you're, you're lucky.
And that luck wouldn't have happened if you
hadn't put yourself out there, which, which is
what I wanted to circle back to.
That's why I paused when I said congratulations,
because like, I don't think people do this
enough.
I agree.
Right.
They want, they want the people to come
knocking on their doors and be like, Hey,
(52:25):
you don't know me, but I just realized
how awesome you are.
And I've come here to give you an
opportunity.
Like that just doesn't happen.
Right.
Like you've got to go to the people.
You did come and knock on my door
and invite me to this awesome opportunity.
But I know exactly what you mean.
And I would argue that, that some people
(52:46):
might hear you say like, Oh, um, people
are waiting for, you know, you wait for
someone to come to you.
You're expecting somebody to come to you.
Like might think that that's like, uh, ego
or overconfident and like, Oh, well, if they
want me, they'll come find me.
But I actually think it can be totally
the opposite.
And it's like, it's our imposter syndrome.
It's our lack of confidence.
It's us thinking, no, no, no, it couldn't
(53:06):
be me.
And I'm here to tell you, it can
be you.
It can absolutely be you.
You are qualified.
You meaning whoever's listening, you're qualified.
You're an excellent trainer.
You absolutely have something to say that somebody
else hasn't said, or a different way of
saying it, you have a new perspective.
You have interesting perspectives.
Like there's so much value that you have
(53:27):
that people could find useful and helpful.
And it is absolutely worth it to put
yourself out there and it will get easier
the more you try it.
Yeah.
But like getting rejected sucks.
Yes, it does.
And like getting rejected.
Well, what do they say?
It's like a rejection is the universe's redirection.
(53:51):
So when you see rejection as like, just
like a little knock in the right direction,
and there's, I mean, I could go down
a whole rabbit hole of like, of mindset,
subconscious and mindset shifting, and really like, just
trusting that everything works out for you.
And everything that's meant to find you will
find you.
And when you have that mindset, the rejection
can be a little bit easier trusting that
(54:12):
like, okay, well, I'm not going to be
doing that.
And I got valuable information for how to
like change my pitch for next time.
Or like, I'll seek out events that are
like different types of events or like, there's
a bazillion pieces of information, valuable information you
can take from rejection, none of which being
you're not good enough.
We just got the title for this episode.
Rejection is the universe's redirection.
(54:36):
I love that.
I'm gonna write that down so I don't
forget it.
But also on that note, we love hearing
about people's behavior odysseys.
So thank you very much for sharing.
And I guess to circle back to the
metaphors we've been using, it was people knocking
on my door to say, hey, Juliana Willems
(54:58):
is awesome.
You have to reach out to her.
And it was the repetition.
It was the repetition of that that made
me do this.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
But just before we wrap up today, part
one of our conversation today, we're going to
get Juliana back, everyone, because I want to
(55:19):
talk about management.
Ken Ramirez specifically to the horn of your
new book, Management, and said that it was
a really valuable asset, a relatively new valuable
asset for people in our community to, one,
just become aware of that it exists, and
(55:39):
two, to read for many benefits, which we'll
talk about in part two.
But before we wrap up, can you just
tell everyone listening where they can go to
find out more about you, what you do,
and how they might be able to slide
into your DMs?
Come find me on Instagram.
That's usually where I am.
(55:59):
JWdogtraining.
If you are on TikTok, I'm there too,
JWdogtraining.
But that's the easiest way to access me.
You can find website and book and everything
else on social media.
Amazing.
And we will, of course, link to Juliana's
Instagram account in our show notes.
We will officially wrap up part one of
this episode here.
This has been so much fun.
(56:21):
So on behalf of myself and everyone listening,
Juliana, we really appreciate you and we really
appreciate you coming on the show with us
today.
Thank you.
Thank you, Ryan.
And thank you so much for listening as
well.
This is your host, Ryan Cartlidge, signing off
from this episode of the Animal Training Academy
(56:42):
podcast show.
We hope today's conversation inspired you and equipped
you with new tools for your trainer's toolbox.
Remember, every challenge in training is an opportunity
to learn and sharpen your animal training geekery.
Embrace the rough patches, learn from them and
(57:03):
keep improving.
And don't forget, the path to growing your
skills and expanding your knowledge continues beyond this
episode.
Visit www.atamember.com to join our supportive
membership where you will find a community of
trainers just like you.
(57:26):
Together, we're making a huge positive difference in
the lives of animal and human learners worldwide.
Until next time, keep honing your skills, stay
awesome and remember, every interaction with an animal
or human learner is your opportunity to create
ripples.
We're here cheering you on every step of
(57:50):
the way.
See you at the next episode.
Welcome to the Animal Training Academy podcast show.
I'm your host, Ryan Carledge, and I'm passionate
about helping you master your animal training skills
using the most positive and least intrusive approaches.
Here at ATA, we understand that navigating the
vast challenges you encounter in training requires a
(00:27):
comprehensive base of knowledge and experience.
It's common to face obstacles and rough patches
on your journey that can leave you feeling
overwhelmed and stressed.
Therefore, since 2015, we have been on a
mission to empower animal training geeks worldwide.
We've aided thousands in developing their skills, expanding
(00:51):
their knowledge, boosting their confidence, and maximizing their
positive impact on all the animal and human
learners they work with.
We are excited to do the same for
you.
Simply visit www.atamember.com, join our vibrant
(01:12):
community, and geek out with us.
And of course, in the meantime, enjoy this
free podcast episode as we explore new ways
to help you supercharge your training skills, grow
your knowledge, and build your confidence so that
you can craft a life that positively impacts
(01:32):
every learner you encounter.
But we will start today's episode where I'll
be talking to one Juliana De Willems.
Juliana is a certified dog trainer and dog
behavior consultant and the owner of JW Dog
(01:54):
Training in the Washington DC area.
She also serves as a Karen Pryor Academy
faculty member, teaching trainers about the principles of
behavior science and clicker training.
When she is not training private clients or
teaching her KPA students, Juliana works with brands
and media outlets to educate the public about
(02:15):
dog training and behavior.
Juliana is also the author of the book,
Manage It, Hacks for Improving Your Dog's Behavior.
So without further ado, it's my very great
pleasure to welcome Juliana De Willems to the
show today, who's patiently waiting by.
Juliana, thank you so much.
Ryan, thanks for having me.
(02:35):
This is great.
Well, I love these episodes, Juliana.
These episodes being ones where I finally get
to connect with a guest whom our audience
has been requesting for a while.
And to make it even better, when we
hosted your friend and co-worker, Ken Ramirez,
(03:00):
who was in our members-only area for
a webinar last month, he was tooting your
horn as well.
And so anyone Ken toots, I'm all about.
But let's dive straight into this episode, Juliana.
I was hoping that you could please take
us all back to where you first learned
about animal training, about positive reinforcement, and share
(03:23):
some stories with us from your behavior odyssey.
Definitely.
So I think like a lot of people,
my behavior journey starts quite early when I
was younger.
I went to college actually for animal science
because I've always loved animals.
I didn't want to be a vet because
I didn't want to do the schooling, but
I went through animal science and got to
(03:45):
skip all the tough stuff like the chemistry
and the bio, and instead took, I don't
know, livestock classes.
University of Maryland is a land-grant school,
so we had a really cool curriculum that
involved horses and animals, even on the University
of Maryland campus.
So I got to do a lot with
animals.
And then interestingly, right after college, I found
(04:08):
a job at the Humane Society by my
house.
And everyone said, oh my gosh, you went
into what you were doing in college, except
no, I was doing event planning and fundraising
at the Humane Society.
So I was definitely working adjacent to animals,
but my gosh, I was doing something that
I totally had never, ever done before.
(04:30):
I'd never had an internship, which is how
I got the job, like helping with events.
And suddenly I was in charge of event
planning and fundraising for this nonprofit.
But as many nonprofits go, it was a
very small organization.
And my event planning desk was directly next
to the foster desk.
So I would hear them making calls all
day long, can you foster this animal?
(04:51):
Can you help this animal?
And sure enough, at 21 years old, I
brought home my first foster dog, still living
with my parents.
And I of course had a soft spot
for the young adolescent rambunctious pit bull type
dogs that often find themselves in shelters for
a very long time.
And luckily got hooked up with the shelter
(05:12):
trainer who is a positive reinforcement care and
prior Academy graduate.
And she would help me with the dogs
I was fostering.
And every step of the way, she would
say, you have to come work for me.
Like you have an act for this.
You should really think about becoming a dog
trainer.
And I learned a lot through my foster
dogs pretty quickly.
I committed to a positive reinforcement journey.
(05:34):
Although I'm not quite sure, like I've never,
I've been a crossover trainer with horses, but
I've never taught with punishment with dogs.
And I'm not quite sure where I like
found the right path there.
I do remember, you know, watching Cesar Milan
and, and Victoria still well on TV in
high school and remember it or and thinking
(05:55):
to myself, yeah, this Victoria lady seems to
be making a lot more sense than this
guy who keeps talking about energy.
So right off the bat, probably with my
science background, I appreciated, you know, the science
-based positive reinforcement techniques.
So I stayed in development and nonprofit event
planning.
I worked for two different animal shelters for
(06:15):
about four years after college.
And then in my mid twenties, I finally
made the jump to leave the corporate world,
essentially, although obviously nonprofit, but the, the typical
like nine to five desk job world.
And I took a part-time job at
an animal shelter on the behavior team.
And then I started seeing clients part-time
and I did end up going where going
(06:35):
and working for that shelter trainer, Beth Mullen
of dog Latin dog training in the Washington
DC area.
She really took me under her wing and
gave me a job and it's been, and
that was 2014.
So 11 years, I went through KPA right
away.
Thank goodness, because that set me on the
track to really solid, you know, training mechanical
(06:56):
skills right off the bat, a pretty good
understanding about behavior.
Although a decade later, I think to myself,
wow, I really, there was a lot that
I didn't know.
But yeah, that pretty much started my career
and my love of positive reinforcement and being
in my mid twenties, living in a house
with a bunch of friends in DC, being
(07:18):
a dog trainer, it was a pretty crazy,
like I worked a lot, I played a
lot, but I got a lot of really,
really good experience being a dog trainer.
One of the main stories that I feel
like I hear on this show is that,
and yours is different.
I like different stories.
I like the same stories as well, because
I think it produces lots of podcast guests
(07:41):
for me, but also like lots of amazing
trainers.
And that story is I got a dog
and this dog had some issues and I
met a trainer and I used diversives and
it didn't work.
Then I read Don't Shoot the Dog, it
changed my life.
But you're a little bit different.
You have just gone directly, you bypassed the
(08:03):
aversive training.
And I'm the same.
And I know that I was just lucky
to connect with the right people.
And also like you, I think have some
internal dialogue going like this training doesn't feel
right.
And immediately seeing, and I think I'm not
like, I realise as I say that the
words are coming out of my mouth, like
(08:23):
that's going to sound judgmental to people who
maybe didn't see that.
I'm not saying anyone didn't see that, but
maybe the opportunities to see that just presented
themselves in different ways for me and for
you.
But then Juliana, I've always kind of felt,
and that's what I want to get your
thoughts on, I've always kind of felt, and
man, like this is a real weird thing
(08:45):
to say and it's going to sound like
wrong, but I always felt like I kind
of missed out.
Does that make sense?
Like I'm missing something.
Like I didn't, like I don't have the
appreciation, I'm not sure that's the right word,
the experience to see things as clearly maybe
(09:06):
as if I had like navigated that, those
other tools first.
Like have you ever thought that?
Yeah, you know, we don't have the perspective
of what it's like to maybe fully immerse
or try aversive tools.
Although I will say like, I definitely have
that with horses and it didn't, it actually
(09:26):
didn't click until many years into my positive
reinforcement journey.
So it's not like, oh, because I worked
this way with horses, I'm going to do
it differently with dogs.
It, again, like it actually took probably four
or five years for me to realize like,
whoa, wait a second, this is so different.
But one thing that I think about a
lot as positive reinforcement trainers, even those of
us who haven't worked with aversives, been the
ones who like deliver the unpleasant consequences or
(09:50):
use the coercion or whatever in training.
I think a lot of us, well, I'll
speak for myself, I trained this way because
I've experienced it myself.
And I think a lot of us like
find positive reinforcement training because we've been on
the other end of aversive behavior modification or
training.
And whether that is like having a really
(10:11):
bad boss or having a really bad coach,
or like maybe the way that our parents
who are doing their best tried to parent
us.
I think we're all, I think many of
us, and again, mostly only speaking for myself
here, we're drawn to positive reinforcement because we
do actually know more about coercive training and
training with punishment and corrections and aversive stimuli.
(10:35):
We're just, we just don't have as, if
we're not crossover trainers, we're not the ones
who have the experience delivering it.
So I don't know, maybe, I don't know
if that perspective of, you still, there's still
an understanding about it.
We just aren't, we just don't have as
much practice being the ones delivering it.
Thank goodness.
Yeah.
And I like how you said, I don't
(10:58):
know why I didn't click reinforcement training.
I don't know if that was an intended
pun, but I like that.
Oh, that's really funny.
Yeah.
Subconscious there.
Yeah.
And I just want to, I just, I'm
worried, Juliana, as we say this, that it's
coming across judgmental to people who didn't say
that.
So I just want to reiterate, even though
I've said it and I'm repeating myself here,
that there's zero judgment here or zero, we're
(11:20):
all just taking different paths.
But I've never really thought about that before.
So what you're saying is that potentially, potentially
that, and I have to check my understanding
here because I think you could see my
face while people listening can't see my face,
but as my wife walked in the room,
needing something from me, just then I lost
my track of thought momentarily.
But what you're saying is that maybe we
(11:40):
had experienced it rather than being the deliverer.
I hadn't thought about this before, but we've
experienced it.
Yeah, I think a lot of us are
like, we've experienced this again through like parenting
or, or, or coaching or, um, who, for
whatever reason, there's, we've, we've been on the
receiving end of, of teaching through, uh, punishment
(12:02):
or aversive consequences.
And we know we don't like it, you
know?
So I, I, I feel like many of
us can be drawn to positive reinforcement because
they think there are two camps.
There's like, I went through it.
So you go through it too.
And then there's people who are like, I
went through it.
So I want to make sure that the
beings in my life that I have influence
(12:24):
over don't have to go through it too.
We're going to jump forward, but that in
your story now, but then we're going to,
um, acknowledge that by doing that, there's a,
there's a big gap, uh, in your journey
that we haven't talked about.
So we will circle back backwards.
We're going to go forwards and then we're
going to go backwards.
So, and I've got logic in my head
as to why I'm doing this.
(12:44):
So be with me, bring us up to
speed in terms of 2025.
Tell us, tell us kind of what your
life looks like now.
Right now I run the business that I
opened actually right at the start of COVID.
So I opened, I worked for that initial,
that mentor who pulled me under her wing
in 2014.
I worked for her for six years, and
(13:06):
then I started my own company, JW dog
training in about, you know, five months after
the pandemic started.
I think we were all seeing that boom
of dog training inquiries and what a horrific
time for the world and like what a
time to be a dog trainer, a pet
professional.
And so it ended up being a really
(13:27):
great time to kind of finally jump out
on my own.
I had just gotten to the point where
I felt like I had enough interest and
experience and wanting to do things my way.
And I really, and it still very much
felt like a leap of faith.
So I started that in again, 2020, it's
been, it'll be five years in September.
(13:48):
I very quickly was able to grow a
team, which came with very much it's learning
experiences and lessons.
And I was working very, very hard as
a dog trainer through 2020.
When I was working under that other company,
because I just had to show up to
my clients and leave and I would get
paid, man, the stress of running a business.
(14:11):
So I was trying to maintain my client
load, which was already a lot and run
my business.
And I had like a major crash out,
basically at the beginning of 2021, which was
kind of the start of me slowly starting
to back away from seeing clients as frequently.
So, and that was also when I started
teaching for KPA and I maintained doing both,
(14:31):
like still having a pretty decent client load
teaching KPA until 2023, I had kind of
another crash out.
And all of these are just getting me
closer to, I think the life that I
want to live and what I want my
day-to-day to look like, which is,
I don't want to be on the road
a bunch anymore.
I don't want to feel over, I don't
want to feel too busy.
I don't want to feel overwhelmed.
(14:52):
And so I've been slowly shaping my life
to look that way.
And I'm lucky to do a lot of
work from home.
I do a lot of social media work.
I do, I have my KPA work, which
is mostly from home, except for the in
-person workshops.
I run my team that I still have.
I'm so grateful to have some incredible trainers
who work for me.
And then I see clients like two or
(15:12):
three days a week, but it's just so
much less than before.
So I'm just really throwing myself into as
much kind of virtual work as I can
as a dog trainer, and also doing my
best to tell others you can do this
too, because man, that life on the road
can be really, really challenging and lead to
burnout really quickly.
(15:33):
Right.
So my reason for asking this question is
still real, but your answer has made me
want to prioritize some other bits and pieces.
So this conversation is going to be all
over the place today, everyone.
And there is something that is front of
my mind, which is why I'm circling back
to this particular part.
(15:54):
And that is, you said you had some
major crash outs.
Now, the reason why, I haven't heard anyone
phrase it as a crash out before, but
you used the word burnout, and I think
you're kind of talking about the same thing.
And the reason it's front of mind is
we had a post in our online community
(16:15):
about this yesterday, and I went through it
myself.
I crashed out in 2020.
Potentially, there was some similar antecedents for my
crash out and your crash out.
But so I want to talk about that,
if that's okay with you.
You don't have to, you can say-
I'd love to.
No, I think we need to talk about
this and normalize it, because I think a
(16:35):
lot more of us experience than we realize.
Or when we do experience it, we're like,
what the heck is this?
Because nobody talks about it.
Well, exactly.
Exactly.
So that's great, because the post in our
online community, and gratitude to our ATA members,
the ones in our members-only Facebook group,
who jumped in there to offer support and
(16:56):
share some thoughts.
But it was exactly what you just said.
Somebody saying, what is this?
What is burnout?
How do I know?
Does it go away?
Which leans into the idea of just that
we need to normalize it more, because I'm
assuming, potentially incorrectly, but I don't think so,
(17:17):
that if one of our members is asking
that, then others are thinking that as well.
And one of the challenges that, I jumped
in and shared my thoughts, and have to
go back in later today as well.
But I'm not a mental health professional, nor
I have any certifications or qualifications in that
area.
I just had my experience.
So I speak from that.
But one thing I've realized is that a
(17:39):
pillar of my work in the animal training
industry, and our use of vocabs, is like
when we're talking about terms, there's value in
pausing and defining what we mean when we
say terms.
So we ensure that the recipient of the
conversation we're having is on the same page
as us, or at least understands what we
(18:01):
talk about.
So burnout, I think, is the same.
Burnout can mean so many different things for
so many different people.
So this kind of makes the question hard
to answer when it's posed in that way,
because it's so individualized.
But I was wondering, for you, what did
that look like?
When you say crash out, what can you
see?
Definitely, yes, I definitely mean burnout.
(18:22):
But when I think about, when I look
back at what actually happened, burnout to me,
it is a label that describes, I don't
know, what it sounds like, losing your flame,
losing your passion, losing your energy, losing your
enthusiasm.
And what I experienced was this, again, I
(18:43):
can only feel like I can explain as
a crash out, where just things really, really
started to pile up.
I had a lot of symptoms that were
really challenging.
And it basically all came to a head.
So what I was experiencing was, it was
really, really, I was really good when I
would show up to my clients.
But if I tried to do any admin
work, or anything, I remember my fingers just
(19:06):
sitting over the keys, and I just couldn't
type.
I couldn't do my work.
And for years, I could do my work,
and I was fine, and I was very
productive.
But I got to this point where I
just couldn't do the important admin tasks, which
again, this was right when I opened my
business.
So my admin tasks had increased significantly.
I just couldn't do it.
(19:27):
And it was like pulling teeth.
And it was like, which I experience now
at sometimes, like if I go too late
in the day, and I find myself really
moving slowly, or like, you know, clicking through
different tabs, or pulling up Instagram a lot.
I'm like, okay, whoa, I'm not being productive
right now.
Like, this is not, I can't keep doing
this.
But it was again, just like, really magnified
at this, it happened essentially over winter break.
(19:49):
And I had this 10 days off, which
was really good, except I had this big
commitment to do like, I had to finish
my Tag Teach course before I could start
teaching KPA.
And I had assigned myself like one day
during break to work.
And every other day, I would have off.
And I remember starting that day, and I
just like couldn't do it.
I was so overwhelmed.
And I ended up on the phone with
my mom.
And I just started crying, which was like,
(20:12):
again, not normal behavior for me.
Like, I was just so overwhelmed.
And that was a really, really big sign
to me that this is not sustainable.
This is not okay.
I can't, you know, you can't work yourself
out of that.
And what I found is when I've hit
points like that, where my burnout where I'm,
I can't show up for myself, I'm no
(20:33):
longer showing up well for clients, either.
The thought of like taking on more clients,
or like helping more people was so aversive
to me.
All of those were signs that I needed
to do significant change.
What I ended up doing was raising my
rate significantly, which at least offered me more
reinforcement for the work I was doing.
And then also cutting back on my schedule.
(20:53):
So making more money and working less surprise
that helps quite a bit.
Yeah.
So the other thing that we talked about,
well, firstly, thank you for sharing.
Secondly, sorry that you experienced that.
Thirdly, would I be correct in assuming that
now in 2025, you can reflect on that?
(21:14):
And there's positives from that in terms of
like how to navigate life?
Definitely in the sense that every time that
I've every time where I've met with so
much resistance, and so much challenge to me,
I take that as information that what I'm
doing isn't working.
And so both of my major crash outs
have resulted in me doing pretty significant pivot
(21:36):
pivots, whether it's like initially, it was just
kind of a major shift in scheduling.
And just, again, changing my rate so that
at least for the amount of work I
was doing, I felt like it was worth
it, more worth it.
And then the second one in 2023, I
was really questioning if I even wanted to
continue being a dog trainer.
(21:57):
I mean, I was at the point where
I was like, do I need to look
up how to be a real estate agent?
Then I'm like, no, I'm going to be
back at the same issue where I'm in
charge of my job.
I wanted to not have a traditional nine
to five and also not have the burden
of working for myself at the time.
But again, ultimately, when I realized how unhappy
I was, I was like, okay, I have
(22:17):
to make a change.
And every shift has, again, taken me closer
to the life I want, which is a
life of ease, a life of fulfillment, a
life of peace, and doing what I love
and not what doing what really fills my
cup and not what empties my cup all
under the hat of dog training.
(22:39):
But there are some things within dog training
that no longer serve me right now.
I might come back to them, but really
focusing on the stuff that I do like
doing.
Well, I think this is all super important
and likely relevant for the listeners.
I've had that thought and I think it's
an entrepreneurial one where a nine to five
(23:01):
sounds pretty good.
Paid sick days?
What?
Paid vacation?
Oh my gosh.
Yeah.
And if you do something that's potentially not
as emotive as caring about the experiences of
other Earthlings, then hypothetically in your mind, you're
like, well, I can leave it at the
(23:22):
door when I come home and I don't
have to worry about where my next paycheck
is coming in and I can cover all
my bills because I know what I'm going
to be earning.
But you push through that and many don't,
I think, which is sad, which is why
I'm saying it's important because we want positive
(23:44):
reinforcement trainers teaching positive reinforcement out there.
Do you have any input?
And I'll tell you why I'm asking this
question.
Firstly, obviously, because I think it's going to
be helpful for our listeners.
But secondly, recently I've done an online strength
(24:04):
finder.
Now, it's obviously subjective, right?
I can't accurately 100% describe you.
I don't think it's very scientific or anything
like that, but it was very helpful for
me.
You fill out a whole bunch of questions
and it kind of suggests what your strengths
are.
And then the idea is to lean into
that.
(24:25):
So yeah, obviously there's more ways than this,
but if we were to make it really
simplistic, we could say that there's two ways
of doing things.
You could work to improve your weaknesses or
you could play into your strengths.
And so it's helped me identify what my
strengths are and set up my life to
(24:45):
ensure that I'm leveraging them.
Because that's fresh in my mind.
It made me my ears perk up when
you talked about doing what fills your cup
and then what doesn't fill your cup.
Was there any systematic way that you kind
of worked through that?
Or was it more just based on your
emotions and kind of what you're feeling?
How did you navigate that space?
(25:07):
I love that you did that.
And I love that you are starting the
conversation that, of course, we see our learners
as individuals and we have to see ourselves
as individuals.
And where this starts is not necessarily looking
at the person next to you, your dog
training colleague and going, well, they do things
like that.
Or they do primarily private training or they
do primarily group classes.
That must be what I should be doing.
(25:27):
And seeing absolutely, yes.
What are you good at?
What do you like doing?
Because guess what?
You can stick to just those things.
For me, it was very much a lot
of self-awareness and being very tuned into
myself and really listening to myself and not
when something felt really hard or challenging or
(25:48):
draining, not being like, well, I just need
to push through.
Which actually, by the way, I did do
for a while.
I was getting to the point where I
didn't want to do as much training.
And then I saw a speaker at Clicker
Expo who was like, you can learn a
lot.
And he did this example of he's walking
in a circle and he's moving one foot.
You can learn a lot, but then you
only go one direction.
(26:09):
And you can do a lot of training
and then you only go to the other
direction.
So you need to be doing both.
You need to be learning and training.
And at that Clicker Expo two years ago,
I'm like, shoot, I really do need to
be doing more training.
Even though at this point, seeing private clients
and problem-solving with private clients is something
I found really draining.
The problem-solving piece is just, it got
(26:32):
really, really not enjoyable for me anymore.
But I started to take clients.
So again, this was 2023, pre-crash out.
I started to continue to take clients thinking
like, oh, I just need to do this
more.
I need to keep my practice up to
make sure that I still feel really competent
doing it.
And that's what it is.
And surprise, that didn't go well.
(26:52):
I was really not enjoying the clients.
They were perfectly fine people, but my heart
wasn't in it anymore.
So I had to really, really listen to
that.
And I've been in therapy for a decade
and I was talking to my therapist about
it.
I'm like, I need a business coach.
I need to talk to somebody about what
I can be doing instead of this because
(27:12):
this isn't working anymore.
And I think she very gently said to
me, okay, yes, we can look into that.
And just see what happens if you keep
exploring this here in therapy.
And sure enough, over that summer of 2023
and into 2024, yes, therapy helped me discover
a lot about myself, my identity, what felt
(27:33):
good to me, what didn't feel good to
me, what my true real goals for my
whole life and my being was, not just
my business goals.
And through that work, I started to, my
business and my personal life have slowly started
to align and not feel as much in
(27:54):
friction.
So I would really say it was just
like a lot of personal work that I
did to find out what I really wanted
my life to look like and how I
could make that happen.
I feel like everyone should be in therapy.
Yes, I definitely agree.
What a sweeping, over-generalized statement, right?
(28:14):
I know, but we're still not at the
point yet where we've like over, you know,
when nobody talks about therapy and then too
many people talk about therapy, or like too
many people go to therapy, like we're not
there yet.
So I think we can still keep pushing,
like go to therapy.
Yeah, I think it's a really interesting space.
My biggest strength, Juliana, was futuristic.
(28:35):
So it's like, I think in the future.
Fascinating.
And I told my wife about this and
she's like, because the pro of that is
like, I can leverage that now, like I
brought that idea into my consciousness.
But like, the con of that is that
it can be really overwhelming for people who
don't think like that, when like I focus
(28:56):
on that.
And like my mindset and my goals and
my work and my actions are based on
the future.
So my wife really agreed with that.
Oh my god, that's so, isn't that so
validating when you tell somebody, like when I
come home from therapy and I talk to
my wife about what we talked about, she's
like, duh.
Yeah, yeah.
(29:16):
Okay, you do see me.
Well, my first one was like competitive and
I was like, I don't agree with that
at all.
Like I was reading the thing, I was
like, no, no, that's not me.
And I said to my wife, I didn't
say that it was, she knew I was
doing a string finder thing, but I didn't
say that it was related to that.
I was like, do you think I'm competitive?
She's like, hell yes.
And I'm like, okay.
Oh, that's amazing.
So, so, so maybe I am.
(29:39):
But yeah, I think it's interesting.
One idea I came up with was just,
I find technology super interesting.
Like I love all of this AI stuff.
And I just, I've noticed that more than
anyone really that I've come across, like I'm
just fascinated by it and I use it
and I explore it.
So like doing that, it's just one action
I can take to like lean into who
(30:01):
I am.
But with regards to therapy, that's interesting.
I saw a quote from, and people are
going to love me and hate me for
this because, because rightly so there's a lot
of anxiety around it.
I think like it's, I think if it
goes the wrong way, it can be incredibly
dangerous.
And I think it already is, to be
honest with you.
Interesting.
(30:23):
But someone from Facebook, I don't know, it
was like Mark Zuckerberg.
And I know like Mark Zuckerberg, you have
great feels about that guy, but like, it
doesn't matter.
Like I'm not like advocating for the source
of this quote.
I'm just saying it was a quote.
Thank you.
And anyway, it said like in the future,
like your five biggest friends are going to
(30:43):
be AI.
And like, I know, right?
Yeah, exactly.
Bad feeling.
I think you summed up what the listeners
of this show feel.
And for me, I'm not, I'm not advocating
for it.
I'm not saying that's good.
I'm not saying it's bad.
I'm just saying like, because I've like, I'm
learning this about myself and I'm leaning into
it.
I'm exploring it more.
And I'm like, Oh, what does that mean?
Like, I think that's interesting for therapy as
(31:03):
well.
Like, and, and the role of therapists and
your access to, because one of the sticking
points, the therapy, right.
Is cost.
Yeah, it's a sticking point for everything.
There are often pay walls between us and
good resources, right.
Whether you're talking about dog training or therapy,
(31:24):
it's like, there are always going to be
accessibility issues.
And, and, you know, it speaks to like
healthcare issues in many different countries and therapy
should be much more easily accessible.
And, you know, I now feel like, I
don't know, if you have some money allocated
to put towards like your business and your
life, that might be a good place to
(31:45):
put it maybe before the, well, I don't
know, everybody's different, but for me, it was,
I'm glad I invested in myself that way
before, you know, paying for some crazy, expensive
business coach.
Yeah.
I think it's smart.
And I think it's brave.
I think, you know, I don't want to
say that too fast.
I think it's brave.
I think it's confronting.
Is it confronting?
Did you find it confronting?
(32:05):
What to be in therapy?
Yeah.
Yeah.
But like, I love that.
I love that.
Like, again, my wife says about me, she's
like, Oh, if there, if there's something to
figure out, you'll figure it out.
Like, I, I love like digging deep, figuring
out why I am the way that I
am, why I like behave the way that
I do.
(32:26):
And one might say like, why my antecedents
are the way that they are.
I, I find it so, I find it
so empowering.
And for me, the reinforcement has been so,
so reinforcing.
Like I, again, live this life that is
just so much, again, more peaceful and so
in line with what I've always wanted.
(32:47):
And so like the quote unquote result that
I've seen now, remember everyone I've been in
therapy for a decade, but it has just
been so incredibly beneficial for me and has
allowed me to live this wonderful life.
And so, yeah, I think you have to
be ready to confront hard stuff and my
gosh, what a beautiful outcome it can produce.
(33:07):
I think it's funny.
As evidenced by Juliana de Willems.
I'm just glad that you are, you know,
I think like hearing men talk about therapy
is also really important and I am the
only male at positive reinforcement events frequently.
Well, yeah.
(33:28):
So there's a lot to talk about with
that too, but it's good that, um, you
know, I'm just grateful that you've opened up
the conversation and, um, and also shared about
your strengths.
I think that is really cool.
And I find it so interesting, this idea,
because as somebody who's like worked so hard
to like live in the present, this idea
that you are so future focused, you're totally
(33:52):
right, man, that I'm like, I'm like, wait,
wait, no, I'm trying to like live in
the now not live in the, in the
who knows when.
So that's so interesting that you've learned that
about yourself and that you're able to lean
into it.
Yeah.
And I, and it energizes me.
So, you know, when you say fill your
cup, like, and then back to, uh, a
(34:13):
conversation that you'd list that we'd probably do,
but we've talked about like these podcasts we're
recording and cause for the listener, we can
see each other right now.
You guys can't cause you're just listening to
audio, but Juliana's like, why don't you stick
that on YouTube?
If that's okay to talk about a push
before we push the record.
But, um, like that, like I found in
the past that that drains me, like the
(34:35):
social media side, um, which is, I guess
something that you and I didn't talk about,
but yeah, like thinking about the future, like
it energizes me.
Um, but yeah, it can be totally overwhelming
for people because we just organize our wills
Juliana.
Cause we've got chickens in the house and
my wife's like, Oh my God, like, stop
it.
I'm like, no.
Anyway, for you, social media fills your cup.
(34:59):
Would that be correct?
Yeah.
I very surprisingly love social media.
Now this is, this is really interesting.
So I am JW dog training on Instagram
and I've grown quite a big following there
over since opening my business, um, in 2020.
And this is such an interesting kind of
(35:19):
like case study in you, you get more
of what you focus on.
So I'm very like, I'm like, I'm just
very nice, but my page is meant to
be very positive and welcoming and for better
or worse.
Like I think there's, it's important when people
are out there yelling about harmful training and
that's not what I do.
(35:41):
So I've created these really wonderful corners of
the internet.
And, uh, I get to connect with people
who love their dogs, who want to learn
more about how to help their dogs.
And so I just have really enjoyed it.
I've, it's been a really cool creative outlet
for me.
I love making videos.
I love making posts.
It, again, the reinforcement has totally been there
(36:02):
in many different ways.
Like it's cool to see your audience grow
so much.
The opportunities I've gotten from it are really
incredible.
So as of right now, it totally still
fills my cup.
And I actually just, I told myself I
would never join TikTok ever.
Like, I'm like, if I've joined TikTok, something
is wrong, but I actually joined TikTok for
a couple of months ago, like totally randomly
(36:23):
on a whim.
I'm like, let's see what happens.
And it's like also going great.
I had this idea that TikTok was like,
you know, dog talk.
Everybody talks about how problematic the dog trainers
on TikTok are, which they are a lot
of them.
Gen Z is going to grow up thinking
like all dogs have to wear prong and
shock collars.
And, but again, like I've had this really
(36:44):
pleasant experience where people are like really grateful
for my content.
They're really nice about my content.
They're not combative.
They're not mean.
Like it's just been really, really lovely.
And again, the reinforcers for the business certainly
don't hurt.
That's why I originally wanted to jump forward
in your story.
And some of the other things you talked
(37:06):
about when you were talking about that was
a couple of things.
Firstly, from one predominantly digitally based business owner
to another, I appreciate that I have to
keep my sword sharp.
That's, that's my metaphor for saying you don't
(37:26):
train.
And I know that like, I know my
sword gets blunt and I want to be
out there going to clients' houses or work
in the zoos or whatever I'm doing to
keep that sword sharp.
But you said as well, one thing you
(37:46):
wanted to communicate that I took away from
what you're saying is for the listeners of
the show, like it's possible to be a
professional animal trainer.
I mean, you and me are evidence of
that, but it's possible to be positive reinforcement
trainer and have a predominantly digital business.
Did I interpret correctly what you were saying
(38:08):
before?
I just want you to speak to that
for the listeners of the show.
I certainly think so.
I think, you know, again, COVID was a
really horrible time for a lot of people
and it showed, it thrusted us all on
the internet and it showed the effectiveness of
training online.
And I think absolutely you can start to
pivot yourself online.
(38:29):
It definitely takes a different kind of work.
Like we're all, we all know how to
like market to our local vets and, you
know, go to community events and stuff like
that.
So you do have to work very hard
to create a different type of audience and
find ways, whether it's Instagram, Facebook, or TikTok,
which they all have very different audiences and
(38:50):
different pros and cons of showing up digitally
and then converting that audience to paid clients,
whether it's like one-to-one training or,
man, there's a whole world out there of
people who sell like digital products, you know,
self-paced courses are really popular now, or
(39:11):
like hybrid courses where you set, you do,
it's like an eight week course, and then
you have X amount of seats and you
meet a few times during that process, but
a lot of it's prerecorded.
So really trying to reduce the human have
to put towards, you know, as trainers, like
are this one-to-one, like one hour
of our life is per money that, that
(39:35):
limits how much money we can make.
And so you, there are a lot of
ways, especially when you go digital to scale,
you do have to educate yourself on these
new ways of doing things.
You know, memberships are huge now, obviously, you
know, all about that.
You were there doing memberships before the rest
of the world was, but those can be
hugely beneficial.
Those can be a really great way to
make your services more accessible.
(39:55):
If you are doing primarily one-to-one
and that cost feels out of some people's
budgets, offering a lower cost membership is a
great option.
It's again, like a great way to scale.
And this is, these are just things that
I'm starting to really explore more and trying
to maximize.
And what's important is to have the mindset
that it is possible because if you tell
(40:15):
yourself, no, it's not possible.
I can only ever make money as a
dog trainer by being in people's homes or
teaching classes that, you know, the local pet
store, like you have to have the mindset
that it is possible and you will find
a way to make it work because if
you believe that you can do it, like
all the other people out there who are
doing it, whether it's dog trainers or other
professions, you will find a way to do
(40:36):
it and to make money digitally and being
online.
Do you feel passionate about this?
Like, well, the reason I ask is because
we're dog trainers or animal trainers or not
necessarily for myself and maybe for you to
listen, not necessarily dogs, but working with behavior
(40:57):
and non-human learners and human learners, obviously.
And then if you want to do that
for your life, then you need to learn
how to monetize that.
And then you said earlier, you know, obviously
with social media, there's those reinforcers for your
business.
But for me anyway, like I find it
(41:19):
interesting and see that I learn things from
10 years in business that I can share
with others that maybe help them.
And that's kind of where I get energized.
Like, is it the same for you?
Yeah, I love talking about it because I
feel like, well, one, a rising tide raises
all ships, like positive reinforcement trainers doing well
(41:42):
is good for all of us.
And I'm like, go forth and live your
best life.
Like whatever that looks like as a dog
trainer, I want us to stop being overworked.
I want us to stop being underpaid.
I want us to, you know, stop telling
ourselves that like, we have to be miserable
in order to survive in this industry.
Like, no, you can make your, you can
(42:02):
make your career look however you want.
And it might take some creativity.
It definitely will take kind of some trust
and a mindset shift, but it's totally possible.
And I, and I want to just like
yell that from the rooftops, because again, I'm
tired of seeing my friends crashing out like
I did.
And so if we can help other people
be successful and do well, we're only going
(42:24):
to be helping more and more people and
dogs and spread the word of positive reinforcement
more or less.
We forget like if the more people burn
out and leave this industry, the they're not,
they're not able to help anyone, you know?
So we have to keep people in this
industry and excited about what they're doing.
A rising, a rising tide raises all ships.
(42:46):
Is that what you're saying?
Yeah.
The rising tide raises all ships.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I mean, it's exactly what it says,
but it's like when one, when one positive,
one, when one positive reinforcement trainer does well,
like it, it helps all of us because
they're out there connecting with their clients and
their clients are saying, wow, that positive reinforcement
(43:06):
thing really worked.
And they visit with their, you know, relative
in another state and go, I did this
positive reinforcement thing.
You should find a positive reinforcement trainer.
Like it's a ripple effect.
And it, it is like the success of
one of us is the success of all
of us.
And we should all be kind of propping
each other up and helping each other be
successful.
Here at Animal Training Academy, Giuliano Ripples is
(43:28):
our word.
We have another podcast show called Ripple Makers.
So I feel like my job is done.
You mentioned ripples.
We're good.
But again, more evidence that I need to
actually share videos from this episode, Giuliano, because
I think this is the third time I've
said this.
I asked Giuliano if she was positive.
(43:50):
Ben, I don't know if you knew what
you were doing, but you were like pumping
your fist as you were talking then so
clearly.
I'm a little passionate.
But cool.
I think we'll circle back and I want
to circle back because I think many people
would look at the opportunity to co-present
frequent live sessions of Ken Ramirez as like,
(44:13):
you know, like if I do that, like
my life is complete.
Talk us through what it's like to work
with Ken and what I can only imagine
participating as you do as co-host in
or on the Life on the Ranch sessions.
(44:36):
You know, you tick like my upskilling part
of my needs to make sure I'm walking
circles in both ways to use your metaphor
from before.
It's complete.
Like, how did you land that gig?
And what's it been like?
What's that journey been like?
And tell us about Life on the Ranch,
just in case the listener of the show
(44:58):
doesn't know what I'm talking about.
Thank you.
Yeah.
Life on the Ranch is a free monthly
broadcast that Ken started in during COVID, April
2020.
He, you know, like everybody were at home,
he's like, right, guess I'll get on live.
And he did it once by himself.
And then he realized I might need some
help.
So now it's the first Thursday of every
(45:20):
month and we have different guests and it's
like the coolest thing.
And we've been going for five years crazy.
And so one thing about me in my
career is like, I've always worked really, really
hard to kind of like make myself known.
So anytime I go to Clicker Expo, I
try to introduce myself to people.
(45:41):
I used to have this thing, man, I'm
really like breaking the fourth wall here.
I used to always wear this specific shirt
the first day.
It was like this really bright blue and
it had our company logo on it, because
like, I wanted to be remembered as like
the person wearing the blue.
And so I'd always did that.
And sure enough, like when you're Kathy's today,
I was like, oh my gosh, I remember
that blue from last year.
(46:02):
And I'm like, oh, you do?
And so I, I have always made an
effort at like making sure people know who
I am.
And I also want to mention this because
I think there can be this misconception that
like, if you're good enough, people will find
you.
And of course you have to have like
the skills or whatever people are looking for.
And there's a huge piece to putting yourself
(46:22):
out there.
And I also very much do want to
acknowledge that I'm like a young white woman
who like generally meets society's beauty standards.
So I have a lot of privilege in
where I'm showing up to these spaces and
that's can't like be glazed over.
That's a really important piece to why, yes,
I knock on the door, but a lot
of the reason why people open the doors,
because again, I'm, I am very privileged.
(46:46):
So that being said, I would, I went
to live from the ranch one year and
I'm sorry, I went to the ranch with
Ken one year.
So they have classes at the ranch.
And that was the first time that I
like really got to know Ken face to
face.
We did a week class.
It was really cool at that time.
I think I wanted to become KPA faculty.
(47:07):
So again, instead of waiting around for them
to say, we're looking for faculty, I said,
are you looking for faculty?
Let me send you my resume.
I sent Ken my resume because he was
basically like, yeah, just email me your resume.
While I'm at the ranch, I sent him
my resume.
And on that has like the TV stuff
that I've done because I've, I've done a
decent amount of news stuff and pet TV
(47:30):
stuff, which again, I would like email the
stations, be like, do you want to stack
a thing on clicker training?
This will help your audience with dogs.
And so he knew I did TV stuff.
And we talked about it a little bit
that week, fast forward to when COVID started.
Clicker Expo was the weekend, everything shut down.
Clicker Expo was a big networking time for
(47:51):
me, as I've said, like it was a
time where I really wanted to put myself
in front of people who had influence to
see like what it could do for my
career.
And I had to make the decision that
Thursday I was leaving, the world was starting
to shut down.
I had to make the decision.
Am I going, am I getting on the
plane or not?
Like they might not be safe.
(48:11):
It might get canceled.
Am I going or not?
And I ultimately, ultimately made the decision not
to go, which thank goodness I did because
it did end up getting canceled.
But I was so devastated because I was
like, I missed my big networking event.
Like this is so upsetting.
And you know, this is like really it's
once a year where all these people are
in one place, seeing all my colleagues, seeing
all my training friends.
And like, I missed it.
(48:32):
This is really going to like, who knows
like what this will or won't do for
my career, but man, what a missed opportunity.
Well, like a month later, I get this
email from Ken and he says, we're doing
this live from the ranch thing.
And we realized that I need a cohost.
And I know that you've done your TV
stuff and you have some experience doing your
(48:52):
webinars and your TV stuff, which he knew
because I had sent him a resume the
summer prior.
And would you be interested in co-hosting
with me for this one episode?
Basically, he's like, we're probably going to switch
around co-hosts, but like, do you want
to do it with me this one time?
I'm like, Ken Ramirez is asking me to
co-host something.
Oh my gosh.
(49:12):
Like, of course, you know?
And that was our first, that was our
first one.
And so he started in April, but we
were doing it weekly then.
So I started the second week and the
rest is history.
It's been five years since then.
So yeah, it's an incredible, incredible opportunity.
My gosh.
Yes.
Well, I'm not, it's like so much continuing
(49:35):
education, just like slammed into this, like so
much so frequently every week that first year.
And then every month since then, and we,
it's been incredible to be able to talk
to the guests.
I've been able to improve my interview skills,
my thinking on the fly skills.
It's, it's such an incredible opportunity.
Yeah.
Well, congratulations on, I pause there for a
(49:58):
reason and I'll circle back to why soon.
Congratulations on getting that gig on five years.
That is cool.
I feel the same with hosting two webinars
a month in ATA.
Like I just, often I'm doing logistics and
helping people get in and solving challenges for
tech problems with people.
(50:19):
But like, you know, just even through like
distracted participation, like without just doing my job,
like it's just like an ever expanding knowledge
base.
Totally.
So much information.
But one thing I want to stick back
to it and that's why I pause and
I said, congratulations.
(50:39):
Is I, well first day, like I remember
back in 2010 or something, 2011, maybe I
was at San Diego Zoo and I met
some of the bird show team and they
were like, Oh yo, are you looking for
work in North America?
(51:01):
You should email this guy.
So I emailed him that night.
And then I went back to the zoo
the next day and someone was going to
take me around the park and they're like,
Oh, just wait here in the cafe with
this guy.
And the guy was like the guy that
I'd emailed and he was sat there and
I was like, Oh, Hey.
And then like, we're talking about him.
We're talking, I'm talking to him and we're
getting on his golf cart and we're driving
(51:22):
around the zoo and his wife calls who
also works at the zoo.
And she's like, Oh, we've got this awesome
resume from this guy in New Zealand.
And he, and I don't know that like
she was saying that, but all I could
hear him say was like, Oh yeah, I'm
sitting next to him right now, like driving
around San Diego Zoo.
And I was like, what is happening?
That's incredible.
And then anyway, like he rang me like
(51:42):
a week later and offered me a job
and I ended up moving to Canada for
eight months and like working in this huge
bird show over there.
But my point was like, was I lucky
or was I like, like I was in
North America.
I was at the bird show.
Like I was going home on my holiday,
like sending resumes.
Was I lucky?
I think yes.
Like what are the chances of that?
(52:03):
But like also like it's always, it's both.
It's like, yeah, you're, you're lucky.
And that luck wouldn't have happened if you
hadn't put yourself out there, which, which is
what I wanted to circle back to.
That's why I paused when I said congratulations,
because like, I don't think people do this
enough.
I agree.
Right.
They want, they want the people to come
knocking on their doors and be like, Hey,
(52:25):
you don't know me, but I just realized
how awesome you are.
And I've come here to give you an
opportunity.
Like that just doesn't happen.
Right.
Like you've got to go to the people.
You did come and knock on my door
and invite me to this awesome opportunity.
But I know exactly what you mean.
And I would argue that, that some people
(52:46):
might hear you say like, Oh, um, people
are waiting for, you know, you wait for
someone to come to you.
You're expecting somebody to come to you.
Like might think that that's like, uh, ego
or overconfident and like, Oh, well, if they
want me, they'll come find me.
But I actually think it can be totally
the opposite.
And it's like, it's our imposter syndrome.
It's our lack of confidence.
It's us thinking, no, no, no, it couldn't
(53:06):
be me.
And I'm here to tell you, it can
be you.
It can absolutely be you.
You are qualified.
You meaning whoever's listening, you're qualified.
You're an excellent trainer.
You absolutely have something to say that somebody
else hasn't said, or a different way of
saying it, you have a new perspective.
You have interesting perspectives.
Like there's so much value that you have
(53:27):
that people could find useful and helpful.
And it is absolutely worth it to put
yourself out there and it will get easier
the more you try it.
Yeah.
But like getting rejected sucks.
Yes, it does.
And like getting rejected.
Well, what do they say?
It's like a rejection is the universe's redirection.
(53:51):
So when you see rejection as like, just
like a little knock in the right direction,
and there's, I mean, I could go down
a whole rabbit hole of like, of mindset,
subconscious and mindset shifting, and really like, just
trusting that everything works out for you.
And everything that's meant to find you will
find you.
And when you have that mindset, the rejection
can be a little bit easier trusting that
(54:12):
like, okay, well, I'm not going to be
doing that.
And I got valuable information for how to
like change my pitch for next time.
Or like, I'll seek out events that are
like different types of events or like, there's
a bazillion pieces of information, valuable information you
can take from rejection, none of which being
you're not good enough.
We just got the title for this episode.
Rejection is the universe's redirection.
(54:36):
I love that.
I'm gonna write that down so I don't
forget it.
But also on that note, we love hearing
about people's behavior odysseys.
So thank you very much for sharing.
And I guess to circle back to the
metaphors we've been using, it was people knocking
on my door to say, hey, Juliana Willems
(54:58):
is awesome.
You have to reach out to her.
And it was the repetition.
It was the repetition of that that made
me do this.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
But just before we wrap up today, part
one of our conversation today, we're going to
get Juliana back, everyone, because I want to
(55:19):
talk about management.
Ken Ramirez specifically to the horn of your
new book, Management, and said that it was
a really valuable asset, a relatively new valuable
asset for people in our community to, one,
just become aware of that it exists, and
(55:39):
two, to read for many benefits, which we'll
talk about in part two.
But before we wrap up, can you just
tell everyone listening where they can go to
find out more about you, what you do,
and how they might be able to slide
into your DMs?
Come find me on Instagram.
That's usually where I am.
(55:59):
JWdogtraining.
If you are on TikTok, I'm there too,
JWdogtraining.
But that's the easiest way to access me.
You can find website and book and everything
else on social media.
Amazing.
And we will, of course, link to Juliana's
Instagram account in our show notes.
We will officially wrap up part one of
this episode here.
This has been so much fun.
(56:21):
So on behalf of myself and everyone listening,
Juliana, we really appreciate you and we really
appreciate you coming on the show with us
today.
Thank you.
Thank you, Ryan.
And thank you so much for listening as
well.
This is your host, Ryan Cartlidge, signing off
from this episode of the Animal Training Academy
(56:42):
podcast show.
We hope today's conversation inspired you and equipped
you with new tools for your trainer's toolbox.
Remember, every challenge in training is an opportunity
to learn and sharpen your animal training geekery.
Embrace the rough patches, learn from them and
(57:03):
keep improving.
And don't forget, the path to growing your
skills and expanding your knowledge continues beyond this
episode.
Visit www.atamember.com to join our supportive
membership where you will find a community of
trainers just like you.
(57:26):
Together, we're making a huge positive difference in
the lives of animal and human learners worldwide.
Until next time, keep honing your skills, stay
awesome and remember, every interaction with an animal
or human learner is your opportunity to create
ripples.
We're here cheering you on every step of
(57:50):
the way.
See you at the next episode.
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