April 21, 2025 • 59 mins
In this first installment of a two-part conversation, we welcome Dr. Keira Moore—behavior analyst, dog trainer, and dedicated advocate for compassionate, ethical training. With over two decades of experience in behavior analysis and a PhD from Western New England University, Keira bridges the worlds of human and animal behavior science, applying her expertise to both dog training and consulting on anxiety and sleep-related challenges.
Keira takes us on a fascinating journey through her career, from her early love of animals and behavioral psychology studies to working with children on the autism spectrum and ultimately finding her passion in dog training. Along the way, she shares how her introduction to clicker training (involving an unexpected feline trainee!) shaped her approach to behavior modification. We also explore the core principles of radical behaviorism and how they apply across species—from humans to dogs and beyond.
What You’ll Discover in This Episode:
🐾 Keira’s unique career path from human behavior analysis to professional dog training.
🐾 How radical behaviorism shapes our understanding of learning across species.
🐾 The power of reinforcement in behavior modification—whether working with children, dogs, or even cats!
🐾 Insights into Keira’s work addressing anxiety, reactivity, and severe behavior challenges.
🐾 The science behind behavior change and how trainers can apply these principles effectively.
Why This Episode is a Must-Listen:
Keira’s extensive expertise, combined with her engaging storytelling, makes this episode a must-hear for trainers, behaviorists, and anyone fascinated by the science of learning. Whether you're new to applied behavior analysis or a seasoned trainer looking to deepen your knowledge, this episode will challenge and inspire you.
Join the Conversation:
Subscribe, share, and connect with us to explore evidence-based, ethical approaches to training. And stay tuned for Part 2, where we dive even deeper into the application of behavior analysis in animal training!
Links:
- Pet Project Website: https://linktr.ee/petprojectdogtraining
- Moore Behavior Consulting Website: https://moorebehaviorconsulting.com/
- Pet Project Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/petprojectdogtraining
- Pet Project Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCul0qh41LvTTroVZqqH-Qzw
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
Welcome to the Animal Training Academy podcast show.
I'm your host, Ryan Carledge, and I'm passionate
about helping you master your animal training skills
using the most positive and least intrusive approaches.
Here at ATA, we understand that navigating the
vast challenges you encounter in training requires a
(00:27):
comprehensive base of knowledge and experience.
It's common to face obstacles and rough patches
on your journey that can leave you feeling
overwhelmed and stressed.
Therefore, since 2015, we have been on a
mission to empower animal training geeks worldwide.
We've aided thousands in developing their skills, expanding
(00:51):
their knowledge, boosting their confidence, and maximizing their
positive impact on all the animal and human
learners they work with.
We are excited to do the same for
you.
Simply visit www.atamember.com, join our vibrant
(01:12):
community, and geek out with us.
And of course, in the meantime, enjoy this
free podcast episode as we explore new ways
to help you supercharge your training skills, grow
your knowledge, and build your confidence, so that
you can craft a life that positively impacts
(01:32):
every learner you encounter.
But we will start today's episode where we'll
be talking to one Dr. Keira Moore.
Dr. Moore is a behavior analyst and dog
trainer in the San Diego, California area in
the US.
She earned her PhD in behavior analysis in
(01:55):
2015 from Western New England University.
She's a board certified behavior analyst at the
doctoral level and a KPA CTP certified dog
trainer.
She's been working in various capacities in the
field of behavior analysis for over two decades.
Currently, she runs two businesses, Pet Project Dog
(02:17):
Training, where she specializes in working with reactivity
and separation anxiety, and Moore Behavior Consulting, where
she works with humans with sleep problems, anxiety,
and severe challenging behavior.
Keira believes in compassionate and ethical dog training,
making sure both the dogs and their humans'
needs are met.
(02:37):
She focuses on teaching good communication skills on
both ends of the leash, and is committed
to ensuring happy and healthy relationships between dogs
and their owners.
So without further ado, it's my very great
pleasure to welcome Keira to the show today,
who's patiently waiting by.
Thank you so much for taking the time
to come and hang out with us at
Animal Training Academy.
(02:57):
Thank you for having me.
I'm excited to be here.
Yeah, our mutual friend, Francesca Espinoza, kindly suggested
that you would be a great guest, and
she's one of those individuals.
And if you're listening and don't know who
we're talking about, you can find episodes of
Dr. Francesca Espinoza in our podcast catalog.
(03:20):
You're probably having to go back a couple
of months to find those, but I highly
recommend listening to those.
But she's one of those people, Keira, who,
if she suggests someone, I don't really question
it.
I just know.
Yes, she's a very smart lady.
You have to trust her.
I just know they're going to be amazing.
(03:41):
And she was recommended to me by Ava
Bertelsen.
And again, I just went, I don't have
to question or look at this person and
do my due diligence because Ava's done it
for me.
So I love the connectedness of how we
came to be sitting here together recording this
podcast episode today.
It's a surprisingly small world, even though I've
(04:03):
never met her in person.
We only interacted online.
But yeah, we're spanning the circle in the
globe here with the connections.
Yeah, well, we were lucky enough to hang
out in London last year.
But I've got amazing friends around the globe
just like that, who I've known for a
(04:25):
decade or so and have never met.
So, yeah, it is pretty amazing.
But gratitude for all of the introductions.
If you, the listener, want to introduce someone
to me, feel free to reach out.
I always enjoy meeting new people.
But let's dive straight into your story here.
I love hearing about people's behaviour odysseys, as
(04:47):
I like to call them.
And you've got a very interesting one and
you've got some great experience in various areas,
including animal training and behaviour across human learners
as well.
And you've got some great knowledge and academic
background.
So I can't wait to learn about where
you started and how you got to where
(05:07):
you are today.
Can you take us back?
Yeah.
So I have, I think, a bit of
a unique journey that brought me to where
I am right now.
And I think most of the time that
I've been on any podcast or done any
interview, we've ended up spending almost all the
time talking about my weird past and all
(05:30):
of the odd things that I've done that
have led me to where I am now.
I always knew I wanted to work with
animals from the time that I was a
young kid.
And I begged and begged and begged my
mom to let me get a dog from
the time that I could speak.
And, of course, like a lot of other
people, didn't get one.
(05:52):
Didn't have my mom wouldn't cave and wouldn't
let me have any, any dogs.
I ended up finally getting a hamster.
She relented and let me do that.
But I knew I knew I wanted to
work with animals from the time I was
young, but I didn't know what kind of
options were out there.
I think I thought veterinarian was the only
thing you could do where you worked with
(06:13):
animals.
And I knew pretty early on when I
went to college that that wasn't the career
that I wanted, that I didn't really want
to get into medicine.
And I got lucky.
I always I always say my my whole
career and kind of journey in life has
just been one lucky chance thing that happened
(06:34):
after another.
But I suppose that's how we all end
up where we end up in my undergraduate
program.
I was I was majoring in psychology and
I went to Hamilton College out in the
middle of nowhere, central New York, which happens
to also be the college of BF Skinner,
which a lot of people don't know.
(06:56):
But that's where BF Skinner went as an
undergrad.
And as such, my psychology department was was
teaching some behavioral psychology classes and they had
a rat lab class, which was, I think,
probably still to this day, one of my
favorite classes that I've ever taken.
So we got to work with rats in
(07:17):
Skinner boxes and I was not very good
at it.
The very first thing, of course, that you
do if you're working with a rat in
a Skinner box is teach them to press
the lever.
And it took me and my rat, Ralphie,
a solid week of sessions to get him
pressing the lever because I didn't understand what
(07:37):
I was doing.
But I was so interested in learning more
about it.
And I think up until that point, I
had kind of like I knew I wanted
to be in psychology, but the classes I
was taking on cognitive psychology and abnormal psychology
and counseling psychology just weren't quite speaking to
me.
(07:58):
They didn't they didn't quite match with my
worldview or what I thought I knew about
behavior.
But that class really grabbed my attention.
And I said, I love this.
I want to do more of this.
And I my my college had an internship
(08:19):
program with the New England Center for Children,
which is out in Boston.
And that's a school for children with autism.
And you could go and spend a semester
there and and work with children on the
autism spectrum.
And I wanted to do a semester abroad,
but I couldn't afford a semester abroad.
And I had never traveled internationally.
(08:40):
And so I thought, oh, this is my
chance to do a semester away.
Not quite abroad, but off campus for a
semester, do something a little bit different.
And I didn't know anything about autism, had
no idea what I was getting into.
I just thought, oh, Boston will be fun.
I'll get off campus for a semester.
And that kind of started me on my
(09:02):
journey into behavior analysis.
So I went out there and I learned
all about ABA.
I got to work with kids on the
autism spectrum and I got to take courses
in a master's program in behavior analysis.
So that's kind of that's kind of where
it all started.
While I was there at the New England
(09:22):
Center for Children, another kind of stroke of
luck.
I took a class with a woman named
Karen Gould, who happened to be a good
friend of Karen Pryor.
And Karen Pryor had recently been working at
the New England Center for Children, doing some
consultation with them.
(09:44):
And one of the books that we read
in that master's class that I was in
was Don't Shoot the Dog.
And that was my introduction to behavior analysis,
was reading that book and getting so excited
going, oh, my gosh, this is the psychology
that I've been looking for.
This is what makes sense to me and
(10:04):
this is what I want to be doing.
And you can do it with animals and
reading that book.
I'm sure a lot of your listeners are
familiar with that book.
Karen does such a great job of explaining
this works just the same way on humans
and animals.
So I thought, oh, I'm going to come
back here.
I'm going to get my master's in behavior
(10:24):
analysis and then maybe I'll work with animals.
But I didn't realize that's not quite how
that works.
I wasn't I wasn't quite in the right
field.
So I ended up going back there and
getting my master's in behavior analysis and then
my Ph.D. in behavior analysis as well.
(10:44):
And working with kids on the autism spectrum
all during that time, but always still having
this kind of smoldering thought of I like
this.
I like this career I'm in.
But boy, do I really want to be
working with animals?
And I know that all of this stuff
that I've learned applies to animals.
I'm just not sure how I how I
(11:06):
get there.
How do I make that jump into that
field?
And so that's kind of that's kind of
where the whole journey started.
While I was in while I was in
grad school, I started dabbling in clicker training
after I had had read Don't Shoot the
Dog.
I had a bunny at the time who
(11:27):
I started doing some clicker training with.
And then a year or two later, I
had a roommate that took in a feral
kitten and I was not really a cat
person.
Sorry to anybody, anybody who is more of
a dog person.
But I had said to her, we can't
keep this cat.
This cat is a kitten that was just
food obsessed, had never lived in a home
(11:48):
before.
As I'm sure you all know, cats can
open doors, they can climb on something, get
in trash cans.
This cat was destroying our house because he
was just after food all the time.
And I said, you have to get rid
of him.
We cannot keep this cat.
And then I woke up one weekend and
(12:08):
the cat was attacking me trying to steal
my breakfast.
And I had a thought of, but wait
a minute, I know how to do some
clicker training.
I wonder if I can use a little
clicker training here.
And I started shaping just four feet on
the floor.
Initially, the cat had four feet on the
floor.
I dropped him a little piece of my
breakfast.
And then that turned into shaping him to
(12:30):
move away from me.
And within a couple of minutes, I had
this little kitten sitting at my feet and
backing up all the way across the kitchen
floor until he would hit the wall on
the other side of the kitchen.
And then I tossed him a piece of
food.
And then we'd do it again.
And I'm thinking, I taught him this funny
trick, but also this is great because now
he's not climbing all over me trying to
steal my food.
(12:51):
And my roommate came home later that day
and I said, we have to keep this
cat.
We have to keep him.
I'm going to teach him tricks.
And sure enough, I did.
He was our little circus cat that did
a bunch of silly circus tricks.
And he played a piano.
And that was my intro into clicker training.
(13:12):
That was a lot.
There's still so much more, too.
Yeah, just keep sharing.
I mean, I can prompt you with some
questions.
Yeah, stop me if you have any questions
or if I'm making it difficult to follow.
Because my story, this is where the story
I think gets a little bit weird.
(13:35):
So I finished my Ph.D. in behavior
analysis and at that time was quite burnt
out.
I was working in a residential program for
kids on the autism spectrum with kids with
very severe behavior challenges.
And I had been doing that for, gosh,
(13:57):
eight years at that point while being in
school full time.
So very challenging job and then taking classes
at night and just burning the candle at
both ends.
And when I finally finished, I knew I
knew my heart was in behavior analysis, but
I also felt so incredibly burnt out on
(14:18):
what I was doing.
And I had in the middle of my
doctoral program, I had discovered flying trapeze, which
if any listeners don't know what that is,
it's the thing you see in the circus
where they're up in the air swinging on
a bar and flying through the air and
another person catches them up over the net.
(14:42):
I had discovered a school in Boston that
taught flying trapeze and they were running a
Groupon deal.
And I bought one and I went to
a class, fell in love with it and
started devoting more and more time to doing
that.
And eventually ended up becoming a flying trapeze
instructor.
And so when I got really burnt out
(15:02):
with my job, I sat down with my
boss and I said, I need to take
a break.
I need to take either a couple of
months off or I'm probably going to quit
because I'm really at a breaking point here.
And I was, again, incredibly lucky.
This was another kind of pivotal moment where
I just happened to get really lucky.
(15:23):
And my boss said, take a couple of
months off.
We'll give you a sabbatical and we'll hold
the job open for you.
But take three months off.
Go do your trapeze thing.
Do what you got to do and then
come back refreshed.
We would we'd rather keep you on and
have you be wanting to be here than
watch you walk away right now.
So I took some time off, started doing
(15:45):
flying trapeze full time and then realized that's
what I wanted to be doing.
That I was happier than I had been
in a very long time.
It was nice to not have the stress
of work and school.
And I decided not to go back to
my job.
And I decided to move out to Seattle,
Washington, and start teaching and performing flying trapeze
(16:09):
full time.
And so I kind of literally ran away
and joined the circus when I got burnt
out with my job.
As you can imagine, my family was thrilled
about that.
I got a Ph.D. and promptly quit
and joined the circus.
And I spent a few years traveling all
(16:29):
over the world.
Didn't get to New Zealand.
I got close.
I got to Australia.
But didn't quite make it all the way
out to you.
Traveled all over the world teaching and performing
and then ended up here in Southern California
just before the COVID pandemic started.
And came here in what was supposed to
(16:50):
be a temporary stint teaching at a flying
trapeze school here.
And became more permanent than we anticipated because
of the pandemic.
And during that time, I realized trapeze was
not really a sustainable life choice for me.
But I knew I still wanted to be
in behavior analysis.
But that I wanted to take a different
(17:12):
path than what I had been doing before.
So with all that extra pandemic time that
we all had, that's kind of where I
carved out my next steps.
And I started a business consulting on sleep
problems.
Which is something that I had learned how
to do during my doctoral program.
And I had been doing it sort of
(17:33):
as a kind of side hustle for a
while.
And I said, you know what?
I really enjoy this work.
I'd like to be doing that and focusing
on that more.
And I started teaching in some online master's
programs in behavior analysis.
And then eventually got a dog, finally my
first dog.
(17:54):
And she was a complete and utter disaster.
I say that in the most loving way.
But she was a rescue that came with
a ton of behavior problems.
And that ended up I think like probably
a lot of other dog trainers out there.
That was the real impetus into me becoming
a dog trainer.
(18:14):
Was that I had to learn how to
do it with my own dog.
And kind of took a deep dive and
again got super lucky.
And got connected with a lot of really
great people in the industry.
And people who are really brilliant dog trainers
that taught me everything that I know.
And I decided a couple years ago that
(18:35):
I wanted to be doing that professionally.
In addition to all the other things that
I was doing.
Because I like being really busy.
And so I went to the Karen Pryor
Academy and got my certification through them.
And then I just started my own dog
training business a little over a year ago
now.
(18:55):
That's my long journey.
Yeah, what a journey.
I mean, it would make sense.
How did you and Francesca meet?
Because she's also a behavior analyst who's doing
dog training.
Yeah, we have a ton of mutual contacts.
Through the academia world and through behavior analysis.
(19:17):
I actually don't know how we first got
connected.
I think she had written a blog about
her dog that I found somehow.
I'm not even sure how I found it.
And I sent her a message being like,
hey, I'm also a behavior analyst with a
really weird dog that I'm trying to figure
out.
And we should talk more about this.
(19:40):
And then we ended up in a short
-lived reading group together with a couple of
other people who were interested in behavior analysis
and animal training.
But I don't know how we actually first
met.
If it was through that group or just
through me seeing her blog.
But yeah, we have very similar backgrounds.
(20:00):
Her work, I think, has been, hopefully I'm
characterizing this right, but she's been mostly focused
on skill acquisition in behavior analysis and teaching
and what are the best methods of teaching
new skills.
Where my work and my experience has been
more focused on dealing with extreme challenging behavior.
(20:23):
So I think our areas of work and
our areas of knowledge and expertise complement each
other well.
And so I will often talk to her
about dog training things.
And we both come at it from a
similar understanding of behavior analysis, but slightly different
experiences in what we've specialized in.
(20:45):
I guess it must be rare to, and
I can appreciate the, and tell me if
it's the wrong word, excitement when you found
someone who you could geek out to on
the level that your knowledge and academic background
allows you to.
Exactly.
And also talk about dog training.
Yep.
I am always on the hunt for more
(21:06):
of those people.
When you have a shared language and shared
terminology and understanding, it just, it makes it
easy to have those conversations and to go
deep down rabbit holes of things that you're
interested in.
And going back, hold that thought, going back,
my mother, I feel your pain.
(21:28):
My mother did not allow me to have
a dog either.
And I was allowed a mouse.
We had mice that had to live in
our garage.
So I get that.
I also want to just spend a tiny
(21:48):
little brief moment just acknowledging and expressing gratitude
for Karen Prior and the work she's done.
And yeah, don't shoot the dog being such
a pivotal part.
It would be the most mentioned piece of
content, I think, if you were to listen
to the entire ATA podcast library, the amount
(22:10):
of times that the combination of don't shoot
the dog and a complete mess of a
dog, I think you described your dog as,
or something along those lines.
Being such important components of people's journeys.
I'm curious, a couple of years ago, as
(22:30):
a community within our membership, we all did,
not all, but those who wanted to participate
and had the resources to at the time,
did Susan Friedman's LLA together.
And then we had these group panel discussions
at the end exclusively for our members.
It only really dawned on me then, and
that was a couple of years ago, that
(22:50):
ABA and my understanding of it, which is
very different than yours and much less knowledgeable.
I do not have the academic background that
you do, but my knowledge of it, I
only just realized a couple of years ago
when I was doing this panel discussion that
it's more than just dog training or animal
training.
(23:11):
Philosophy is the wrong word, but it's just
hazy life.
It becomes all encompassing.
It's everything.
Yeah.
I don't think philosophy is the wrong word,
because I actually talk about that a lot
with my students, that radical behaviorism is the
philosophy that underlies the science of behavior analysis.
(23:35):
And I think something that I push a
lot with my graduate students who are in
an ABA program and largely working with kids
on the autism spectrum, one thing that I
really try to push with them is you
have to understand the philosophy that underlies the
(23:57):
science that we do.
Because if you do understand that, everything that
you're going to do becomes so much easier,
because you can apply that philosophy or that
kind of basis that underlies the science to
anything.
And I think that's what's allowed me to
(24:18):
move with relative ease into dog training from
a background in human work.
And I always try to be careful when
I'm comparing the two and comparing the work
I've done with humans and the work that
I'm doing now with dogs, that I'm not
comparing humans to dogs or dogs to humans,
because they're different.
(24:38):
But learning and behavior is all the same,
regardless of species.
It all works the same.
And what we know about behavior applies to
all behavior.
It doesn't matter if it's dog behavior or
human behavior or cat behavior or fish behavior.
Those principles work the same for everyone, just
like physics works the same on everyone.
(25:01):
Even if you're a dog or a human,
if you jump out of a tree, you're
going to fall.
It works the same.
So I don't think that's the wrong word,
and I think that that's a really, really
important thing for people to understand.
And one thing that I also have been
(25:22):
trying to talk to more dog trainers about,
that you can be great at what you
do without understanding it, without understanding the philosophy
of radical behaviorism or without understanding the science.
You can be a great practitioner, but I
always think for anybody, if you really understand
(25:44):
what is behind what you're doing, you're always
going to be better.
And you're always going to be able to
solve new problems, even if you don't already
have the tools in your toolbox, because you
do, if you understand the science.
And so I think that's what's helped me
a lot in making that transition, is that
(26:06):
if you understand the science, you can apply
it anywhere.
And even bigger than that, I think, like
what you were saying, the philosophy of radical
behaviorism, it is like glasses that you can't
take off once you understand that.
Once you're thinking like a behavior analyst, you
(26:27):
can't not think like a behavior analyst, unless
you're talking about your significant other.
For some reason, for me, the glasses come
off.
If I'm trying to analyze my significant other's
behavior, I can't think about it like a
behavior analyst.
The analysis goes out the window then, but
(26:48):
yeah, you kind of can't take that off.
Yeah, I was going to say that you
can't take them off.
And I was going to say, I feel
sorry for our partners.
Because they're like, stop talking about reinforcement.
What I was going to say was, so
(27:10):
it's a special connection when you find someone
who shares your academic background and has worked
across earthling species, dogs, humans, cats, fish.
And actually, before I asked what I was
about to ask, I realized that the listeners
(27:32):
of the show are at a large, a
huge, significant variety of places in their careers,
just getting started.
Some of our listeners have been training longer
than I've been alive.
Some of them have done LLA or have
done some university courses and understand applied behavior
(27:55):
analysis.
Some of them are going, what are these
people talking about?
Talking about applied behavior analysis.
But I think for everyone, if someone said
to me, hey, can you describe radical behaviorism?
I would have to stop and think, articulate
it, and then question myself, and then be
like, I need to get to a computer
or get my phone out and double check
(28:16):
what I'm listening.
So can you just, for everyone listening, when
we talk about radical behaviorism, define that for
us?
Yeah, so, okay, yeah, it is a hard
one to give a precise definition for because
it is a, I think philosophy is probably
the best word.
(28:38):
And radical behaviorism is a type of behaviorism
that was popularized by BF Skinner.
I was going to say founded by, but
that doesn't seem quite like the right word,
because there were some people that had talked
about similar things prior to Skinner.
But I think Skinner is the one that
(28:58):
best articulated it.
Before BF Skinner, there was behaviorism, but it
was a very different kind of behaviorism.
And Skinner called his radical behaviorism to differentiate,
this is radically different than the other behaviorisms
of our time.
Prior to Skinner, most behaviorism was very focused
(29:21):
just on observable behavior.
So we only look at what we can
see and what we can measure.
Skinner, what makes Skinner's radical behaviorism different is
Skinner said that's an artificial way to categorize
behavior, to say it only counts if we
can see it or if we can measure
(29:41):
it.
Because there are things that you and I
know are behavior that we can't see, that
we can't operationalize.
Like if I turn off all the lights
in this room right now, and I wave
my hands around, no one can see that.
It's still behavior.
It's exactly the same as if I do
(30:02):
it with the lights on.
It's just that the lights are off now,
so that doesn't suddenly make it not behavior.
If I say the words out loud, the
dog is brown, versus if I whisper those
words so that only I can hear it,
it's still behavior.
It's still the same behavior.
It's just changed in intensity.
(30:24):
And then if I whisper it under my
breath, or if I think it in my
head, it's still behavior.
It's still the same.
And so that's what makes radical behaviorism radical,
or radically different than other behaviorism, is that
Skinner said that just because you can't see
it or you can't observe it, doesn't make
(30:46):
it not behavior.
And he talked about the skin being an
artificial boundary, that behavior can occur inside of
the skin, just like it occurs outside of
the skin.
And that even in those cases where we
can't see it, or we can't measure it,
we still have to assume that it is
(31:07):
subject to the same laws, and it works
the same way as behavior that we can
see.
So thinking is behavior, feeling is behavior, and
we should expect that those behaviors work the
same way as behavior that we can see,
(31:28):
like speaking out loud, or behavior that we
can observe.
So that's not a great short definition of
radical behaviorism, but that's what radical behaviorism is,
or what makes it different than other behaviorisms.
And I think a lot of people have
lost that, or don't understand that, or don't
(31:49):
know that, especially, I find this a lot
in my graduate students, because they learn early
on that when we're measuring behavior, or when
we're changing behavior, we have to be able
to observe it.
We have to have inter-observer agreement.
We have to operationalize it.
(32:12):
And so then they start thinking that as
behavior analysts, we can only deal with behavior
that we can see, or we can observe,
or we can operationalize.
And then they start thinking like methodological behaviorists,
which are, that's, we kind of break behaviorism
into two main camps.
Methodological behaviorism, which is that idea that if
(32:34):
you cannot observe it, it does not count
as behavior.
And radical behaviorism, which is, it doesn't matter
if we can observe it or not, it's
still behavior, it still works the same way.
And I think a lot of people don't
realize that the behaviorism that we all, most
of us know and practice is based on
(32:54):
Skinner's radical behaviorism, and that we do indeed
consider things that we can't see, or that
we can't observe.
And we assume that they work the same
way as everything else, and that there's no
reason to think just because we can't see
it means it's an entirely different thing.
And so that's kind of, that's kind of
(33:15):
what underlies the science of behavior analysis.
And I think probably most of your listeners
are more familiar with that, and with behavior
analysis being the idea that behavior is learned,
or in some cases not.
(33:36):
There's some behavior that we come to the
world with, usually respondent behavior, but that behavior
is influenced by the environment.
And that we look at the A's, the
B's, and the C's, the antecedents, the behaviors,
and the consequences.
And that's behavior analysis.
Yeah, I would not have said that.
(33:57):
I'm curious what you would have said if
I asked you to define it.
So my understanding of it, which is very
different than that, and that's why I said
I would have immediately gone, and I've never
tried to define radical behaviorism.
So I'm loving this, because now I'm going
to be smarter after this recording today, and
(34:20):
you listeners hopefully as well.
I had this idea that a component of
it was that there wasn't, and I hesitate,
because I don't want to sound stupid here.
That free will wasn't like something that exists,
because you're literally just behaving, and you're biologically
(34:41):
incapable of doing anything other than what your
genetics, your learning history, and your current context
allow you to do.
Is there a component of it?
Sort of.
I think it is less of an important
component than a lot of people think.
And I know Skinner had some thoughts on
it, which I will not do him justice
(35:05):
if I try to recount what Skinner's thoughts
were.
I think this is something that a lot
of people, as they get into the philosophy
of radical behaviorism, start to feel weird about.
Because I think most of us grow up
with that idea of free will, and that
(35:28):
I am in charge of my behavior, and
I'm choosing to do the things that I'm
doing, and I'm in charge of my own
destiny, so to speak.
And behaviorism kind of challenges that, because we
have to always look at behavior and go,
huh, where did that come from?
But we also have the challenge of we
never really know.
(35:49):
That as behavior analysts, unless I am watching
behavior be learned from the very beginning in
a lab or in tightly controlled circumstances, I
never really know.
I can make educated guesses about what's going
on and where behavior originated from or how
(36:10):
a particular behavior was learned.
But we never really know, which is frustrating
as a behavior analyst.
But, yeah, the idea of free will doesn't
really play nicely with the idea of behavior
being a product of circumstances and of the
(36:32):
environment.
But I've come to kind of embrace that
because it kind of lets you off the
hook a little bit.
When you think about it, if you engage
in some behavior that you don't like, which
all of us do, it's a lot easier
because you're the only one that knows your
full history.
So you can look at that behavior and
(36:53):
go, oh, I can figure out how I
learned that or where that came from or
what in my environment has reinforced that.
And so for me, it's a little, it
initially, I kind of was, I think, a
little bothered by that idea of, well, does
this mean there's no free will?
And then the more I thought about it,
(37:13):
I was like, oh, I kind of like
that because it feels like it lets me
off the hook a little bit.
Like when I behave in a way that
I don't like that, I don't have to
be like, yep, I chose that.
I behaved like that on purpose.
I didn't.
My environment selected that behavior for whatever reason.
But to me, that's also the beauty of
behavior analysis is that we can also apply
(37:34):
that logic to all behavior, that we don't
ever blame the learner.
And I love my favorite quote from behavior
analysis that came from Fred Keller originally, I
think, is the learner is always right.
Meaning that there is always a reason that
a learner is engaging in behavior, even if
we don't like that behavior, even if we
(37:54):
find that behavior horrifying.
And that's kind of back to what we
were talking about before.
Once you put those glasses on, you can't
take them off.
Right.
If you understand that about behavior, that behavior
is a product of circumstances and environment, then
you have to always give the learner some
grace that their behavior is happening for a
(38:15):
reason.
I thought you were going to say the
rest is never wrong, which is the same
thing.
Yeah, I mean, right and right and wrong
is kind of arbitrary, right?
Like, that's just an assignment that we give
to behavior, but it's never wrong in the
sense of the learners doing it for a
(38:37):
reason.
It might not be behavior we like.
Even if you watched a learner in radical
behaviorism, when we're thinking through the lens of
radical behaviorism, even if you watched a learner
in a lab where you can control the
variables really well, you still wouldn't really know
because the internal behaviors are not observable or
(39:01):
measurable.
Yeah, and that's something I wrestled with a
lot in my doctoral dissertation because I studied
anxiety in children on the autism spectrum who
are nonverbal or had limited verbal behavior.
So we were specifically looking at with kids
(39:24):
on the autism spectrum, there's a very high
comorbidity rate with autism and anxiety disorders.
But it is very difficult to know if
someone has an anxiety disorder when they have
autism because most of, if you look in
the DSM, most of the diagnostic criteria for
(39:47):
anxiety disorders rely on verbal report.
And so that's how we often get to
an anxiety diagnosis because the person can verbalize
how they're feeling.
And in kids with autism that get an
anxiety diagnosis, it often comes from parent report,
which as we know is not very reliable.
(40:09):
So we were looking at how do we
know if somebody who cannot tell us how
they're feeling, how do we know if they
have anxiety and what even does that mean?
And that is an incredibly important question because
it also dictates treatment.
That if I am working with a child
(40:30):
on the autism spectrum who cannot tell me
how they're feeling, but I think that they
have anxiety, first of all, what does that
mean?
Second of all, how do we measure it?
Because third and perhaps most importantly is if
we're going to treat it, we need to
have a way of measuring whether or not
treatment's working.
(40:51):
And if the way we're measuring anxiety is
just asking someone else, how do you think
they feel?
That's not a very good way to measure,
especially when that person knows whether or not
their child is getting treatment.
So there had been, and there still is,
a lot of misunderstanding about anxiety and what
(41:11):
that is and what that means and how
to measure it and how to treat it.
Because when we don't know how to measure
it, then of course we're not going to
know if our treatments are working.
Would that be similar to diagnosing a dog
or other species with anxiety?
Yeah, it's been interesting that my work with
dogs has ended up moving in that direction
(41:33):
too.
Funny enough, I said to myself when I
started getting into dog training, I want to
do puppies and service dogs.
I don't want to deal with behavior problems.
I've been doing that my whole career.
And here we are, I currently am working
with one puppy and all the rest are
all dogs with very severe behavior problems.
(41:54):
And I can't say I'm surprised that's where
I landed, but it makes sense given my
experience and that that ends up being what
I understand the best and what I know
how to treat the best.
But yeah, it's the same.
So anxiety, I think a lot of behavior
(42:14):
analysts shy away from because it's an emotion.
And again, we've got a lot of people
that have this kind of misconception that behaviorism
only touches things that we can observe, which
anxiety often is not one of those things.
But again, going back to the radical behaviorism
ideas, Skinner was very explicit in saying emotions
(42:38):
are not anything special.
And we should not treat them as such
because anything that happens inside the skin, we
should assume is the same as things that
happen outside the skin.
So if there is behavior that I'm experiencing
or I'm engaging in that only I can
observe, it's still the same as behavior that
(42:59):
you and I can observe.
So anxiety is one of those things.
Skinner actually has this really awesome paper.
It's Estes and Skinner.
I want to say it's 1941, but I
might have the year wrong.
I'll find it.
I'll find it and I'll send it to
you so that you can link your listeners
(43:21):
to it because it is a really great
paper.
Skinner attempted to study anxiety with rats way
back when he was still doing work in
a lab and trying to figure out how
do we actually operationalize anxiety.
And he was, I think, in the paper,
if anybody's read any Skinner, it can be
(43:43):
a little bit dense and difficult to read.
And he's not always getting right to the
point and giving us nice, neat, easy to
understand definitions.
But basically what Skinner was getting at in
that paper is anxiety is behavior and it
is behavior that is caused by a specific
(44:04):
set of conditions.
And those conditions are when an aversive event
is signaled.
So the aversive event hasn't happened yet, but
it is about to happen.
And we know it's about to happen because
there's something in our environment right now that
is telling us it's going to happen.
(44:25):
So in his study, they had, I'm going
to get the details of this wrong because
I haven't read this paper in probably 10
years.
They had rats in an operant chamber, a
Skinner box, and they had some sort of
signal.
I think it was a sound that played,
a tone that played.
And these Skinner boxes, the little grates on
(44:48):
the bottom of them could be electrified.
So they could deliver shock to the feet
of the rats.
And so what they would do is they
would play a very long tone.
And then at the end of that tone,
the rats would get a shock through the
levers of the, or through the bars on
the bottom of the Skinner box.
(45:09):
Now, these rats were all trained to press
the lever in that Skinner box on, I
can't remember what the schedule of reinforcement was,
but they were pressing very steadily and very
regularly, and they were getting food for pressing
that lever.
And so they were measuring that as sort
(45:29):
of a baseline of ongoing behavior.
So the rats are steadily pressing, steadily pressing,
steadily pressing, eating their little rat pellets.
And then they'd start pairing long tone, shock
follows.
The first couple of times they played that
tone, the rat's behavior did not change.
(45:49):
They just keep doing their thing and keep
pressing and pressing, and they're ignoring the tone.
They'd get shocked and they'd kind of jump,
startle for a second.
They'd stop pressing the lever for a second,
and then they'd recover pretty quickly.
After just a couple of those pairings, when
they would play that long tone, all of
a sudden the rat would stop.
(46:10):
They'd stop pressing that lever.
Even though the tone has nothing to do
with the lever, the tone doesn't change the
schedule of reinforcement.
Food is still available.
The rat could go right on pressing and
keep getting food during that time.
But all of those rats would stop responding
during that tone.
They'd get the shock, and then they'd go
(46:30):
right back to responding.
And they'd often go back to responding even
faster, almost like they were trying to make
up for that lost time.
And so Skinner was conceptualizing that change in
behavior, that time when the rat pauses and
goes, oh crap, it's coming, that he was
saying, that's anxiety.
We can operationalize anxiety.
(46:51):
We can measure it.
And all it is is a change in
behavior when there's an upcoming aversive event signaled.
That's how I got into figuring out, okay,
we can look at it the same way.
In kids with autism who cannot tell us
how they're feeling, we can assume anxiety is
(47:15):
any change in behavior when there is something
aversive upcoming that's being signaled in their environment.
And so we ended up running a study
that was set up kind of similarly to
what Skinner did.
And I know that people are going to
be like, oh, my God, that sounds horrifying.
I promise it wasn't.
(47:36):
We went through extensive ethics reviews.
But basically what we would do is we
would find some things that our participants found
aversive in their everyday life that were reportedly
anxiety provoking.
So we would survey caregivers and say, okay,
(47:57):
you've told us such and such kid has
a lot of anxiety.
What things provoke that anxiety?
What things stress them out or make them
nervous?
And for most of these kids, it was
regular everyday things like noise, going to the
doctor or the nurse.
For one of our participants, it was restricted
(48:19):
access to condiments during lunch.
Like he had this thing where he would
want to just put tons of ketchup and
mustard on everything that he ate, and he
wasn't allowed to do that.
But then that led to all kinds of
challenging behavior leading up to lunchtime because he
was so stressed out about how much ketchup
and mustard am I going to get at
lunch today?
(48:41):
And basically what we did is we set
up a similar situation.
So we would bring these kids into our
lab, which was just a small room they'd
never been in.
We'd play with them for a little while.
We'd bring all their favorite toys.
We'd bring their favorite snacks.
We'd make it a good time.
And then we would measure ongoing behavior.
(49:04):
So we'd look at what are they doing
when they're just like hanging out in the
room?
When there's nothing going on, there's nothing aversive
signaled.
Are they moving around?
Are they engaging in stereotypic behavior like hand
flapping?
Are they talking?
Are they making noise?
Are they crying?
Are they whining?
(49:25):
And then we would have a five-minute
baseline period where me or whoever the experimenter
was would just sit in the room and
hang out with the kid.
And then we would have a one-minute
signal period where we would have a computer
that would turn on and it would show
a picture of the thing that we thought
(49:47):
provoked anxiety for them.
So like for the kid with the condiment
issue, it would be a picture of ketchup
and mustard with a big no symbol over
them.
And we would direct the kids to the
screen and say, hey, in one minute, this
thing is going to happen.
So in his case, we'd say in one
(50:07):
minute, you're going to have a snack, but
you cannot have any condiments.
For another kid, it was noise.
We'd say in one minute, I'm going to
play a loud noise.
And we'd wait one minute and we'd measure
behavior during that one-minute signal.
When the signal was up, the computer would
turn off, and then we would expose them
(50:27):
to that trigger or that thing that we
thought caused anxiety for one minute.
So like for our condiment guy, we'd give
him a bagel.
We'd have a box of condiments that was
locked up that he could see the condiments
in.
And we'd be like, oh, no, we can't
get this open.
You're going to have to have a plain
bagel.
(50:47):
For the kid with loud noise, we'd play
like a car alarm sound.
All the things that we did were, I
know when I talk about this, it sounds
like, man, that was kind of mean to
do.
But we'd expose them to the thing for
one minute.
We'd measure behavior during that minute.
(51:08):
And then we'd go to another baseline where
we would just hang out again.
And then we'd end the session again with
all their favorite things.
We'd bring in their favorite snacks, favorite toys.
We'd have a great time.
And we'd run a couple of sessions like
that with each kid.
And so what we're looking for there is,
is there a change in behavior?
We're looking at baseline rates of behavior.
(51:30):
We're looking at behavior during the signal, that
time when we're saying, hey, this thing's going
to happen.
We're looking at behavior during the actual event.
And then we're looking at how they recover
afterwards.
So we have another baseline period.
And in that way, we're saying, okay, anxiety
is that change in behavior that we see
(51:51):
during the signal.
So now we can define it.
And for most kids, anxiety looked like multiple
different things.
It wasn't just one behavior.
It was usually a cluster of different behaviors.
And we did try to measure physiological responses
as well.
But this was back in 2008.
We started that work back in 2010.
(52:11):
So we didn't really have great technology like
we do now.
If I was doing it now with all
the smart watches and rings and things like
that, we could have gotten a lot better
measures.
But we were measuring mostly outward signs of
things that we can see.
And so it's the same with dogs.
It's the same with animals.
We can look at what are the things
(52:34):
that their caregivers are reporting are causing stress
or causing anxiety.
And then we can look at what are
things in their environment that are signaling that
that thing is about to happen.
So, for example, my dog came with some
very bad dog reactivity.
One of the things that was a trigger
(52:55):
for her was hearing jingling collars or jingling
tags or jingling anything.
Because the sound of jingling tags predicts a
dog is about to come.
And so we can set up a similar
paradigm to actually measure anxiety and look at
what kinds of behavior is she engaging in
(53:16):
that would indicate to us that this is
about to be a problem.
And then how can we change that behavior?
And so in our study with the kids
on the autism spectrum, what we did after
that assessment period was we moved into treatment
where we would do exactly what we do
in dog training.
(53:37):
Basically, systematic desensitization where we go, okay, in
one minute, I'm going to play a loud
noise.
But when we started our treatment, that loud
noise initially was very, very quiet.
We played at the level that they could
handle it and that they weren't having challenging
behavior.
And we would teach them alternative behavior to
(53:58):
engage in.
So for our students, we taught them things
like squeezing a stress ball and taking deep
breaths and putting their shoulders down and sitting
back in their chair.
So we pick other behavior to teach them.
We practice it where we're dialing down the
aversive stimulus first, and we get them really
good at engaging in other behavior.
(54:20):
And then we slowly turn up the dial
on the scary thing or the anxiety-provoking
thing.
And so that's all translated really well to
the work that I'm doing now.
It's the same basic model for any problem
that's anxiety-based or fear-based.
We teach a different behavior, and then we
(54:41):
slowly turn up the dial on the scary
thing.
Well, I have so many questions, but looking
at the time, we should head towards wrapping
this up.
But if you're enjoying this, the listener, we're
going to keep geeking out with Cara on
the science in part two of our conversation,
which will be the episode that follows this.
(55:02):
And we'll also talk about how you, the
listener, can ground or build upon what you're
doing to even better ground your work in
the science.
So we will be continuing in part two.
For now, though, I want to share gratitude
to Cara for sharing.
I was hoping to talk about anxiety, and
we naturally got there without me prompting it.
(55:24):
So that was enjoyable and informative.
So thank you very much for sharing everything
about your story and ending up with radical
behaviorism and talking about anxiety.
That was amazing.
Just before we do officially wrap up, though,
can you just share with everyone listening where
they can go to find you on the
(55:46):
interwebs, find out more about you, what you're
doing, get in touch?
Yeah, so my dog training business is called
Pet Project Dog Training.
And I haven't got around to making a
real legitimate website, so I'm using a link
tree as my website still.
But if you Google Pet Project Dog Training,
(56:07):
that should be the first thing that pops
up.
And you can find me on Instagram at
Pet Project Dog Training.
That's one of my big things right now
is I'm working on just building my presence
on Instagram and social media.
And you can find me on YouTube as
well.
All of my different accounts are all linked
to each other.
So if you find one, you can find
(56:28):
them all.
And we didn't talk about sleep at all,
but my sleep consulting is More Behavior Consulting,
M-O-O-R-E, like my last
name, Behavior Consulting.
And on that, that actually has a website,
morebehaviorconsulting.com.
And on that, you can find links to
(56:48):
all of the work that I've done on
anxiety, all the work I've done on sleep.
There's a whole bunch of podcast episodes that
I've recorded on those two things with people
in the human behavior analysis community.
And so if people are interested in those
topics, that's a great place to start.
Amazing.
And we will, of course, link to all
of that in the show notes.
And I don't think anyone's ever come on
(57:10):
the podcast, Karen, and said, well, I have
a website.
It's perfect.
Nothing needs doing on it.
It's absolutely great.
And the reason I bring that up is
we had a member in our community just
this week who's just getting started and posted
a question about what to put on their
Instagram and their first post.
(57:32):
And the phrase, and I don't know who
said this, perfection is the enemy of good
enough and good enough gets results.
So I'm celebrating your Linktree account and we
will link to that and everything else you
have mentioned.
So this has been so much fun.
So from myself and on behalf of everyone
listening, we really appreciate you taking the time
(57:52):
to come and hang out with us and
looking forward to part two.
All right.
And thank you so much for listening as
well.
This is your host, Ryan Cartlidge, signing off
from this episode of the Animal Training Academy
podcast show.
We hope today's conversation inspired you and equipped
(58:14):
you with new tools for your trainer's toolbox.
Remember, every challenge in training is an opportunity
to learn and sharpen your animal training geekery.
Embrace the rough patches, learn from them and
keep improving.
And don't forget the path to growing your
skills and expanding your knowledge continues beyond this
(58:38):
episode.
Visit www.atamember.com to join our supportive
membership where you will find a community of
trainers just like you.
Together, we're making a huge positive difference in
the lives of animal and human learners worldwide.
(59:00):
Until next time, keep honing your skills.
Stay awesome.
And remember, every interaction with an animal or
human learner is your opportunity to create ripples.
We're here cheering you on every step of
the way.
See you at the next episode.
Welcome to the Animal Training Academy podcast show.
I'm your host, Ryan Carledge, and I'm passionate
about helping you master your animal training skills
using the most positive and least intrusive approaches.
Here at ATA, we understand that navigating the
vast challenges you encounter in training requires a
(00:27):
comprehensive base of knowledge and experience.
It's common to face obstacles and rough patches
on your journey that can leave you feeling
overwhelmed and stressed.
Therefore, since 2015, we have been on a
mission to empower animal training geeks worldwide.
We've aided thousands in developing their skills, expanding
(00:51):
their knowledge, boosting their confidence, and maximizing their
positive impact on all the animal and human
learners they work with.
We are excited to do the same for
you.
Simply visit www.atamember.com, join our vibrant
(01:12):
community, and geek out with us.
And of course, in the meantime, enjoy this
free podcast episode as we explore new ways
to help you supercharge your training skills, grow
your knowledge, and build your confidence, so that
you can craft a life that positively impacts
(01:32):
every learner you encounter.
But we will start today's episode where we'll
be talking to one Dr. Keira Moore.
Dr. Moore is a behavior analyst and dog
trainer in the San Diego, California area in
the US.
She earned her PhD in behavior analysis in
(01:55):
2015 from Western New England University.
She's a board certified behavior analyst at the
doctoral level and a KPA CTP certified dog
trainer.
She's been working in various capacities in the
field of behavior analysis for over two decades.
Currently, she runs two businesses, Pet Project Dog
(02:17):
Training, where she specializes in working with reactivity
and separation anxiety, and Moore Behavior Consulting, where
she works with humans with sleep problems, anxiety,
and severe challenging behavior.
Keira believes in compassionate and ethical dog training,
making sure both the dogs and their humans'
needs are met.
(02:37):
She focuses on teaching good communication skills on
both ends of the leash, and is committed
to ensuring happy and healthy relationships between dogs
and their owners.
So without further ado, it's my very great
pleasure to welcome Keira to the show today,
who's patiently waiting by.
Thank you so much for taking the time
to come and hang out with us at
Animal Training Academy.
(02:57):
Thank you for having me.
I'm excited to be here.
Yeah, our mutual friend, Francesca Espinoza, kindly suggested
that you would be a great guest, and
she's one of those individuals.
And if you're listening and don't know who
we're talking about, you can find episodes of
Dr. Francesca Espinoza in our podcast catalog.
(03:20):
You're probably having to go back a couple
of months to find those, but I highly
recommend listening to those.
But she's one of those people, Keira, who,
if she suggests someone, I don't really question
it.
I just know.
Yes, she's a very smart lady.
You have to trust her.
I just know they're going to be amazing.
(03:41):
And she was recommended to me by Ava
Bertelsen.
And again, I just went, I don't have
to question or look at this person and
do my due diligence because Ava's done it
for me.
So I love the connectedness of how we
came to be sitting here together recording this
podcast episode today.
It's a surprisingly small world, even though I've
(04:03):
never met her in person.
We only interacted online.
But yeah, we're spanning the circle in the
globe here with the connections.
Yeah, well, we were lucky enough to hang
out in London last year.
But I've got amazing friends around the globe
just like that, who I've known for a
(04:25):
decade or so and have never met.
So, yeah, it is pretty amazing.
But gratitude for all of the introductions.
If you, the listener, want to introduce someone
to me, feel free to reach out.
I always enjoy meeting new people.
But let's dive straight into your story here.
I love hearing about people's behaviour odysseys, as
(04:47):
I like to call them.
And you've got a very interesting one and
you've got some great experience in various areas,
including animal training and behaviour across human learners
as well.
And you've got some great knowledge and academic
background.
So I can't wait to learn about where
you started and how you got to where
(05:07):
you are today.
Can you take us back?
Yeah.
So I have, I think, a bit of
a unique journey that brought me to where
I am right now.
And I think most of the time that
I've been on any podcast or done any
interview, we've ended up spending almost all the
time talking about my weird past and all
(05:30):
of the odd things that I've done that
have led me to where I am now.
I always knew I wanted to work with
animals from the time that I was a
young kid.
And I begged and begged and begged my
mom to let me get a dog from
the time that I could speak.
And, of course, like a lot of other
people, didn't get one.
(05:52):
Didn't have my mom wouldn't cave and wouldn't
let me have any, any dogs.
I ended up finally getting a hamster.
She relented and let me do that.
But I knew I knew I wanted to
work with animals from the time I was
young, but I didn't know what kind of
options were out there.
I think I thought veterinarian was the only
thing you could do where you worked with
(06:13):
animals.
And I knew pretty early on when I
went to college that that wasn't the career
that I wanted, that I didn't really want
to get into medicine.
And I got lucky.
I always I always say my my whole
career and kind of journey in life has
just been one lucky chance thing that happened
(06:34):
after another.
But I suppose that's how we all end
up where we end up in my undergraduate
program.
I was I was majoring in psychology and
I went to Hamilton College out in the
middle of nowhere, central New York, which happens
to also be the college of BF Skinner,
which a lot of people don't know.
(06:56):
But that's where BF Skinner went as an
undergrad.
And as such, my psychology department was was
teaching some behavioral psychology classes and they had
a rat lab class, which was, I think,
probably still to this day, one of my
favorite classes that I've ever taken.
So we got to work with rats in
(07:17):
Skinner boxes and I was not very good
at it.
The very first thing, of course, that you
do if you're working with a rat in
a Skinner box is teach them to press
the lever.
And it took me and my rat, Ralphie,
a solid week of sessions to get him
pressing the lever because I didn't understand what
(07:37):
I was doing.
But I was so interested in learning more
about it.
And I think up until that point, I
had kind of like I knew I wanted
to be in psychology, but the classes I
was taking on cognitive psychology and abnormal psychology
and counseling psychology just weren't quite speaking to
me.
(07:58):
They didn't they didn't quite match with my
worldview or what I thought I knew about
behavior.
But that class really grabbed my attention.
And I said, I love this.
I want to do more of this.
And I my my college had an internship
(08:19):
program with the New England Center for Children,
which is out in Boston.
And that's a school for children with autism.
And you could go and spend a semester
there and and work with children on the
autism spectrum.
And I wanted to do a semester abroad,
but I couldn't afford a semester abroad.
And I had never traveled internationally.
(08:40):
And so I thought, oh, this is my
chance to do a semester away.
Not quite abroad, but off campus for a
semester, do something a little bit different.
And I didn't know anything about autism, had
no idea what I was getting into.
I just thought, oh, Boston will be fun.
I'll get off campus for a semester.
And that kind of started me on my
(09:02):
journey into behavior analysis.
So I went out there and I learned
all about ABA.
I got to work with kids on the
autism spectrum and I got to take courses
in a master's program in behavior analysis.
So that's kind of that's kind of where
it all started.
While I was there at the New England
(09:22):
Center for Children, another kind of stroke of
luck.
I took a class with a woman named
Karen Gould, who happened to be a good
friend of Karen Pryor.
And Karen Pryor had recently been working at
the New England Center for Children, doing some
consultation with them.
(09:44):
And one of the books that we read
in that master's class that I was in
was Don't Shoot the Dog.
And that was my introduction to behavior analysis,
was reading that book and getting so excited
going, oh, my gosh, this is the psychology
that I've been looking for.
This is what makes sense to me and
(10:04):
this is what I want to be doing.
And you can do it with animals and
reading that book.
I'm sure a lot of your listeners are
familiar with that book.
Karen does such a great job of explaining
this works just the same way on humans
and animals.
So I thought, oh, I'm going to come
back here.
I'm going to get my master's in behavior
(10:24):
analysis and then maybe I'll work with animals.
But I didn't realize that's not quite how
that works.
I wasn't I wasn't quite in the right
field.
So I ended up going back there and
getting my master's in behavior analysis and then
my Ph.D. in behavior analysis as well.
(10:44):
And working with kids on the autism spectrum
all during that time, but always still having
this kind of smoldering thought of I like
this.
I like this career I'm in.
But boy, do I really want to be
working with animals?
And I know that all of this stuff
that I've learned applies to animals.
I'm just not sure how I how I
(11:06):
get there.
How do I make that jump into that
field?
And so that's kind of that's kind of
where the whole journey started.
While I was in while I was in
grad school, I started dabbling in clicker training
after I had had read Don't Shoot the
Dog.
I had a bunny at the time who
(11:27):
I started doing some clicker training with.
And then a year or two later, I
had a roommate that took in a feral
kitten and I was not really a cat
person.
Sorry to anybody, anybody who is more of
a dog person.
But I had said to her, we can't
keep this cat.
This cat is a kitten that was just
food obsessed, had never lived in a home
(11:48):
before.
As I'm sure you all know, cats can
open doors, they can climb on something, get
in trash cans.
This cat was destroying our house because he
was just after food all the time.
And I said, you have to get rid
of him.
We cannot keep this cat.
And then I woke up one weekend and
(12:08):
the cat was attacking me trying to steal
my breakfast.
And I had a thought of, but wait
a minute, I know how to do some
clicker training.
I wonder if I can use a little
clicker training here.
And I started shaping just four feet on
the floor.
Initially, the cat had four feet on the
floor.
I dropped him a little piece of my
breakfast.
And then that turned into shaping him to
(12:30):
move away from me.
And within a couple of minutes, I had
this little kitten sitting at my feet and
backing up all the way across the kitchen
floor until he would hit the wall on
the other side of the kitchen.
And then I tossed him a piece of
food.
And then we'd do it again.
And I'm thinking, I taught him this funny
trick, but also this is great because now
he's not climbing all over me trying to
steal my food.
(12:51):
And my roommate came home later that day
and I said, we have to keep this
cat.
We have to keep him.
I'm going to teach him tricks.
And sure enough, I did.
He was our little circus cat that did
a bunch of silly circus tricks.
And he played a piano.
And that was my intro into clicker training.
(13:12):
That was a lot.
There's still so much more, too.
Yeah, just keep sharing.
I mean, I can prompt you with some
questions.
Yeah, stop me if you have any questions
or if I'm making it difficult to follow.
Because my story, this is where the story
I think gets a little bit weird.
(13:35):
So I finished my Ph.D. in behavior
analysis and at that time was quite burnt
out.
I was working in a residential program for
kids on the autism spectrum with kids with
very severe behavior challenges.
And I had been doing that for, gosh,
(13:57):
eight years at that point while being in
school full time.
So very challenging job and then taking classes
at night and just burning the candle at
both ends.
And when I finally finished, I knew I
knew my heart was in behavior analysis, but
I also felt so incredibly burnt out on
(14:18):
what I was doing.
And I had in the middle of my
doctoral program, I had discovered flying trapeze, which
if any listeners don't know what that is,
it's the thing you see in the circus
where they're up in the air swinging on
a bar and flying through the air and
another person catches them up over the net.
(14:42):
I had discovered a school in Boston that
taught flying trapeze and they were running a
Groupon deal.
And I bought one and I went to
a class, fell in love with it and
started devoting more and more time to doing
that.
And eventually ended up becoming a flying trapeze
instructor.
And so when I got really burnt out
(15:02):
with my job, I sat down with my
boss and I said, I need to take
a break.
I need to take either a couple of
months off or I'm probably going to quit
because I'm really at a breaking point here.
And I was, again, incredibly lucky.
This was another kind of pivotal moment where
I just happened to get really lucky.
(15:23):
And my boss said, take a couple of
months off.
We'll give you a sabbatical and we'll hold
the job open for you.
But take three months off.
Go do your trapeze thing.
Do what you got to do and then
come back refreshed.
We would we'd rather keep you on and
have you be wanting to be here than
watch you walk away right now.
So I took some time off, started doing
(15:45):
flying trapeze full time and then realized that's
what I wanted to be doing.
That I was happier than I had been
in a very long time.
It was nice to not have the stress
of work and school.
And I decided not to go back to
my job.
And I decided to move out to Seattle,
Washington, and start teaching and performing flying trapeze
(16:09):
full time.
And so I kind of literally ran away
and joined the circus when I got burnt
out with my job.
As you can imagine, my family was thrilled
about that.
I got a Ph.D. and promptly quit
and joined the circus.
And I spent a few years traveling all
(16:29):
over the world.
Didn't get to New Zealand.
I got close.
I got to Australia.
But didn't quite make it all the way
out to you.
Traveled all over the world teaching and performing
and then ended up here in Southern California
just before the COVID pandemic started.
And came here in what was supposed to
(16:50):
be a temporary stint teaching at a flying
trapeze school here.
And became more permanent than we anticipated because
of the pandemic.
And during that time, I realized trapeze was
not really a sustainable life choice for me.
But I knew I still wanted to be
in behavior analysis.
But that I wanted to take a different
(17:12):
path than what I had been doing before.
So with all that extra pandemic time that
we all had, that's kind of where I
carved out my next steps.
And I started a business consulting on sleep
problems.
Which is something that I had learned how
to do during my doctoral program.
And I had been doing it sort of
(17:33):
as a kind of side hustle for a
while.
And I said, you know what?
I really enjoy this work.
I'd like to be doing that and focusing
on that more.
And I started teaching in some online master's
programs in behavior analysis.
And then eventually got a dog, finally my
first dog.
(17:54):
And she was a complete and utter disaster.
I say that in the most loving way.
But she was a rescue that came with
a ton of behavior problems.
And that ended up I think like probably
a lot of other dog trainers out there.
That was the real impetus into me becoming
a dog trainer.
(18:14):
Was that I had to learn how to
do it with my own dog.
And kind of took a deep dive and
again got super lucky.
And got connected with a lot of really
great people in the industry.
And people who are really brilliant dog trainers
that taught me everything that I know.
And I decided a couple years ago that
(18:35):
I wanted to be doing that professionally.
In addition to all the other things that
I was doing.
Because I like being really busy.
And so I went to the Karen Pryor
Academy and got my certification through them.
And then I just started my own dog
training business a little over a year ago
now.
(18:55):
That's my long journey.
Yeah, what a journey.
I mean, it would make sense.
How did you and Francesca meet?
Because she's also a behavior analyst who's doing
dog training.
Yeah, we have a ton of mutual contacts.
Through the academia world and through behavior analysis.
(19:17):
I actually don't know how we first got
connected.
I think she had written a blog about
her dog that I found somehow.
I'm not even sure how I found it.
And I sent her a message being like,
hey, I'm also a behavior analyst with a
really weird dog that I'm trying to figure
out.
And we should talk more about this.
(19:40):
And then we ended up in a short
-lived reading group together with a couple of
other people who were interested in behavior analysis
and animal training.
But I don't know how we actually first
met.
If it was through that group or just
through me seeing her blog.
But yeah, we have very similar backgrounds.
(20:00):
Her work, I think, has been, hopefully I'm
characterizing this right, but she's been mostly focused
on skill acquisition in behavior analysis and teaching
and what are the best methods of teaching
new skills.
Where my work and my experience has been
more focused on dealing with extreme challenging behavior.
(20:23):
So I think our areas of work and
our areas of knowledge and expertise complement each
other well.
And so I will often talk to her
about dog training things.
And we both come at it from a
similar understanding of behavior analysis, but slightly different
experiences in what we've specialized in.
(20:45):
I guess it must be rare to, and
I can appreciate the, and tell me if
it's the wrong word, excitement when you found
someone who you could geek out to on
the level that your knowledge and academic background
allows you to.
Exactly.
And also talk about dog training.
Yep.
I am always on the hunt for more
(21:06):
of those people.
When you have a shared language and shared
terminology and understanding, it just, it makes it
easy to have those conversations and to go
deep down rabbit holes of things that you're
interested in.
And going back, hold that thought, going back,
my mother, I feel your pain.
(21:28):
My mother did not allow me to have
a dog either.
And I was allowed a mouse.
We had mice that had to live in
our garage.
So I get that.
I also want to just spend a tiny
(21:48):
little brief moment just acknowledging and expressing gratitude
for Karen Prior and the work she's done.
And yeah, don't shoot the dog being such
a pivotal part.
It would be the most mentioned piece of
content, I think, if you were to listen
to the entire ATA podcast library, the amount
(22:10):
of times that the combination of don't shoot
the dog and a complete mess of a
dog, I think you described your dog as,
or something along those lines.
Being such important components of people's journeys.
I'm curious, a couple of years ago, as
(22:30):
a community within our membership, we all did,
not all, but those who wanted to participate
and had the resources to at the time,
did Susan Friedman's LLA together.
And then we had these group panel discussions
at the end exclusively for our members.
It only really dawned on me then, and
that was a couple of years ago, that
(22:50):
ABA and my understanding of it, which is
very different than yours and much less knowledgeable.
I do not have the academic background that
you do, but my knowledge of it, I
only just realized a couple of years ago
when I was doing this panel discussion that
it's more than just dog training or animal
training.
(23:11):
Philosophy is the wrong word, but it's just
hazy life.
It becomes all encompassing.
It's everything.
Yeah.
I don't think philosophy is the wrong word,
because I actually talk about that a lot
with my students, that radical behaviorism is the
philosophy that underlies the science of behavior analysis.
(23:35):
And I think something that I push a
lot with my graduate students who are in
an ABA program and largely working with kids
on the autism spectrum, one thing that I
really try to push with them is you
have to understand the philosophy that underlies the
(23:57):
science that we do.
Because if you do understand that, everything that
you're going to do becomes so much easier,
because you can apply that philosophy or that
kind of basis that underlies the science to
anything.
And I think that's what's allowed me to
(24:18):
move with relative ease into dog training from
a background in human work.
And I always try to be careful when
I'm comparing the two and comparing the work
I've done with humans and the work that
I'm doing now with dogs, that I'm not
comparing humans to dogs or dogs to humans,
because they're different.
(24:38):
But learning and behavior is all the same,
regardless of species.
It all works the same.
And what we know about behavior applies to
all behavior.
It doesn't matter if it's dog behavior or
human behavior or cat behavior or fish behavior.
Those principles work the same for everyone, just
like physics works the same on everyone.
(25:01):
Even if you're a dog or a human,
if you jump out of a tree, you're
going to fall.
It works the same.
So I don't think that's the wrong word,
and I think that that's a really, really
important thing for people to understand.
And one thing that I also have been
(25:22):
trying to talk to more dog trainers about,
that you can be great at what you
do without understanding it, without understanding the philosophy
of radical behaviorism or without understanding the science.
You can be a great practitioner, but I
always think for anybody, if you really understand
(25:44):
what is behind what you're doing, you're always
going to be better.
And you're always going to be able to
solve new problems, even if you don't already
have the tools in your toolbox, because you
do, if you understand the science.
And so I think that's what's helped me
a lot in making that transition, is that
(26:06):
if you understand the science, you can apply
it anywhere.
And even bigger than that, I think, like
what you were saying, the philosophy of radical
behaviorism, it is like glasses that you can't
take off once you understand that.
Once you're thinking like a behavior analyst, you
(26:27):
can't not think like a behavior analyst, unless
you're talking about your significant other.
For some reason, for me, the glasses come
off.
If I'm trying to analyze my significant other's
behavior, I can't think about it like a
behavior analyst.
The analysis goes out the window then, but
(26:48):
yeah, you kind of can't take that off.
Yeah, I was going to say that you
can't take them off.
And I was going to say, I feel
sorry for our partners.
Because they're like, stop talking about reinforcement.
What I was going to say was, so
(27:10):
it's a special connection when you find someone
who shares your academic background and has worked
across earthling species, dogs, humans, cats, fish.
And actually, before I asked what I was
about to ask, I realized that the listeners
(27:32):
of the show are at a large, a
huge, significant variety of places in their careers,
just getting started.
Some of our listeners have been training longer
than I've been alive.
Some of them have done LLA or have
done some university courses and understand applied behavior
(27:55):
analysis.
Some of them are going, what are these
people talking about?
Talking about applied behavior analysis.
But I think for everyone, if someone said
to me, hey, can you describe radical behaviorism?
I would have to stop and think, articulate
it, and then question myself, and then be
like, I need to get to a computer
or get my phone out and double check
(28:16):
what I'm listening.
So can you just, for everyone listening, when
we talk about radical behaviorism, define that for
us?
Yeah, so, okay, yeah, it is a hard
one to give a precise definition for because
it is a, I think philosophy is probably
the best word.
(28:38):
And radical behaviorism is a type of behaviorism
that was popularized by BF Skinner.
I was going to say founded by, but
that doesn't seem quite like the right word,
because there were some people that had talked
about similar things prior to Skinner.
But I think Skinner is the one that
(28:58):
best articulated it.
Before BF Skinner, there was behaviorism, but it
was a very different kind of behaviorism.
And Skinner called his radical behaviorism to differentiate,
this is radically different than the other behaviorisms
of our time.
Prior to Skinner, most behaviorism was very focused
(29:21):
just on observable behavior.
So we only look at what we can
see and what we can measure.
Skinner, what makes Skinner's radical behaviorism different is
Skinner said that's an artificial way to categorize
behavior, to say it only counts if we
can see it or if we can measure
(29:41):
it.
Because there are things that you and I
know are behavior that we can't see, that
we can't operationalize.
Like if I turn off all the lights
in this room right now, and I wave
my hands around, no one can see that.
It's still behavior.
It's exactly the same as if I do
(30:02):
it with the lights on.
It's just that the lights are off now,
so that doesn't suddenly make it not behavior.
If I say the words out loud, the
dog is brown, versus if I whisper those
words so that only I can hear it,
it's still behavior.
It's still the same behavior.
It's just changed in intensity.
(30:24):
And then if I whisper it under my
breath, or if I think it in my
head, it's still behavior.
It's still the same.
And so that's what makes radical behaviorism radical,
or radically different than other behaviorism, is that
Skinner said that just because you can't see
it or you can't observe it, doesn't make
(30:46):
it not behavior.
And he talked about the skin being an
artificial boundary, that behavior can occur inside of
the skin, just like it occurs outside of
the skin.
And that even in those cases where we
can't see it, or we can't measure it,
we still have to assume that it is
(31:07):
subject to the same laws, and it works
the same way as behavior that we can
see.
So thinking is behavior, feeling is behavior, and
we should expect that those behaviors work the
same way as behavior that we can see,
(31:28):
like speaking out loud, or behavior that we
can observe.
So that's not a great short definition of
radical behaviorism, but that's what radical behaviorism is,
or what makes it different than other behaviorisms.
And I think a lot of people have
lost that, or don't understand that, or don't
(31:49):
know that, especially, I find this a lot
in my graduate students, because they learn early
on that when we're measuring behavior, or when
we're changing behavior, we have to be able
to observe it.
We have to have inter-observer agreement.
We have to operationalize it.
(32:12):
And so then they start thinking that as
behavior analysts, we can only deal with behavior
that we can see, or we can observe,
or we can operationalize.
And then they start thinking like methodological behaviorists,
which are, that's, we kind of break behaviorism
into two main camps.
Methodological behaviorism, which is that idea that if
(32:34):
you cannot observe it, it does not count
as behavior.
And radical behaviorism, which is, it doesn't matter
if we can observe it or not, it's
still behavior, it still works the same way.
And I think a lot of people don't
realize that the behaviorism that we all, most
of us know and practice is based on
(32:54):
Skinner's radical behaviorism, and that we do indeed
consider things that we can't see, or that
we can't observe.
And we assume that they work the same
way as everything else, and that there's no
reason to think just because we can't see
it means it's an entirely different thing.
And so that's kind of, that's kind of
(33:15):
what underlies the science of behavior analysis.
And I think probably most of your listeners
are more familiar with that, and with behavior
analysis being the idea that behavior is learned,
or in some cases not.
(33:36):
There's some behavior that we come to the
world with, usually respondent behavior, but that behavior
is influenced by the environment.
And that we look at the A's, the
B's, and the C's, the antecedents, the behaviors,
and the consequences.
And that's behavior analysis.
Yeah, I would not have said that.
(33:57):
I'm curious what you would have said if
I asked you to define it.
So my understanding of it, which is very
different than that, and that's why I said
I would have immediately gone, and I've never
tried to define radical behaviorism.
So I'm loving this, because now I'm going
to be smarter after this recording today, and
(34:20):
you listeners hopefully as well.
I had this idea that a component of
it was that there wasn't, and I hesitate,
because I don't want to sound stupid here.
That free will wasn't like something that exists,
because you're literally just behaving, and you're biologically
(34:41):
incapable of doing anything other than what your
genetics, your learning history, and your current context
allow you to do.
Is there a component of it?
Sort of.
I think it is less of an important
component than a lot of people think.
And I know Skinner had some thoughts on
it, which I will not do him justice
(35:05):
if I try to recount what Skinner's thoughts
were.
I think this is something that a lot
of people, as they get into the philosophy
of radical behaviorism, start to feel weird about.
Because I think most of us grow up
with that idea of free will, and that
(35:28):
I am in charge of my behavior, and
I'm choosing to do the things that I'm
doing, and I'm in charge of my own
destiny, so to speak.
And behaviorism kind of challenges that, because we
have to always look at behavior and go,
huh, where did that come from?
But we also have the challenge of we
never really know.
(35:49):
That as behavior analysts, unless I am watching
behavior be learned from the very beginning in
a lab or in tightly controlled circumstances, I
never really know.
I can make educated guesses about what's going
on and where behavior originated from or how
(36:10):
a particular behavior was learned.
But we never really know, which is frustrating
as a behavior analyst.
But, yeah, the idea of free will doesn't
really play nicely with the idea of behavior
being a product of circumstances and of the
(36:32):
environment.
But I've come to kind of embrace that
because it kind of lets you off the
hook a little bit.
When you think about it, if you engage
in some behavior that you don't like, which
all of us do, it's a lot easier
because you're the only one that knows your
full history.
So you can look at that behavior and
(36:53):
go, oh, I can figure out how I
learned that or where that came from or
what in my environment has reinforced that.
And so for me, it's a little, it
initially, I kind of was, I think, a
little bothered by that idea of, well, does
this mean there's no free will?
And then the more I thought about it,
(37:13):
I was like, oh, I kind of like
that because it feels like it lets me
off the hook a little bit.
Like when I behave in a way that
I don't like that, I don't have to
be like, yep, I chose that.
I behaved like that on purpose.
I didn't.
My environment selected that behavior for whatever reason.
But to me, that's also the beauty of
behavior analysis is that we can also apply
(37:34):
that logic to all behavior, that we don't
ever blame the learner.
And I love my favorite quote from behavior
analysis that came from Fred Keller originally, I
think, is the learner is always right.
Meaning that there is always a reason that
a learner is engaging in behavior, even if
we don't like that behavior, even if we
(37:54):
find that behavior horrifying.
And that's kind of back to what we
were talking about before.
Once you put those glasses on, you can't
take them off.
Right.
If you understand that about behavior, that behavior
is a product of circumstances and environment, then
you have to always give the learner some
grace that their behavior is happening for a
(38:15):
reason.
I thought you were going to say the
rest is never wrong, which is the same
thing.
Yeah, I mean, right and right and wrong
is kind of arbitrary, right?
Like, that's just an assignment that we give
to behavior, but it's never wrong in the
sense of the learners doing it for a
(38:37):
reason.
It might not be behavior we like.
Even if you watched a learner in radical
behaviorism, when we're thinking through the lens of
radical behaviorism, even if you watched a learner
in a lab where you can control the
variables really well, you still wouldn't really know
because the internal behaviors are not observable or
(39:01):
measurable.
Yeah, and that's something I wrestled with a
lot in my doctoral dissertation because I studied
anxiety in children on the autism spectrum who
are nonverbal or had limited verbal behavior.
So we were specifically looking at with kids
(39:24):
on the autism spectrum, there's a very high
comorbidity rate with autism and anxiety disorders.
But it is very difficult to know if
someone has an anxiety disorder when they have
autism because most of, if you look in
the DSM, most of the diagnostic criteria for
(39:47):
anxiety disorders rely on verbal report.
And so that's how we often get to
an anxiety diagnosis because the person can verbalize
how they're feeling.
And in kids with autism that get an
anxiety diagnosis, it often comes from parent report,
which as we know is not very reliable.
(40:09):
So we were looking at how do we
know if somebody who cannot tell us how
they're feeling, how do we know if they
have anxiety and what even does that mean?
And that is an incredibly important question because
it also dictates treatment.
That if I am working with a child
(40:30):
on the autism spectrum who cannot tell me
how they're feeling, but I think that they
have anxiety, first of all, what does that
mean?
Second of all, how do we measure it?
Because third and perhaps most importantly is if
we're going to treat it, we need to
have a way of measuring whether or not
treatment's working.
(40:51):
And if the way we're measuring anxiety is
just asking someone else, how do you think
they feel?
That's not a very good way to measure,
especially when that person knows whether or not
their child is getting treatment.
So there had been, and there still is,
a lot of misunderstanding about anxiety and what
(41:11):
that is and what that means and how
to measure it and how to treat it.
Because when we don't know how to measure
it, then of course we're not going to
know if our treatments are working.
Would that be similar to diagnosing a dog
or other species with anxiety?
Yeah, it's been interesting that my work with
dogs has ended up moving in that direction
(41:33):
too.
Funny enough, I said to myself when I
started getting into dog training, I want to
do puppies and service dogs.
I don't want to deal with behavior problems.
I've been doing that my whole career.
And here we are, I currently am working
with one puppy and all the rest are
all dogs with very severe behavior problems.
(41:54):
And I can't say I'm surprised that's where
I landed, but it makes sense given my
experience and that that ends up being what
I understand the best and what I know
how to treat the best.
But yeah, it's the same.
So anxiety, I think a lot of behavior
(42:14):
analysts shy away from because it's an emotion.
And again, we've got a lot of people
that have this kind of misconception that behaviorism
only touches things that we can observe, which
anxiety often is not one of those things.
But again, going back to the radical behaviorism
ideas, Skinner was very explicit in saying emotions
(42:38):
are not anything special.
And we should not treat them as such
because anything that happens inside the skin, we
should assume is the same as things that
happen outside the skin.
So if there is behavior that I'm experiencing
or I'm engaging in that only I can
observe, it's still the same as behavior that
(42:59):
you and I can observe.
So anxiety is one of those things.
Skinner actually has this really awesome paper.
It's Estes and Skinner.
I want to say it's 1941, but I
might have the year wrong.
I'll find it.
I'll find it and I'll send it to
you so that you can link your listeners
(43:21):
to it because it is a really great
paper.
Skinner attempted to study anxiety with rats way
back when he was still doing work in
a lab and trying to figure out how
do we actually operationalize anxiety.
And he was, I think, in the paper,
if anybody's read any Skinner, it can be
(43:43):
a little bit dense and difficult to read.
And he's not always getting right to the
point and giving us nice, neat, easy to
understand definitions.
But basically what Skinner was getting at in
that paper is anxiety is behavior and it
is behavior that is caused by a specific
(44:04):
set of conditions.
And those conditions are when an aversive event
is signaled.
So the aversive event hasn't happened yet, but
it is about to happen.
And we know it's about to happen because
there's something in our environment right now that
is telling us it's going to happen.
(44:25):
So in his study, they had, I'm going
to get the details of this wrong because
I haven't read this paper in probably 10
years.
They had rats in an operant chamber, a
Skinner box, and they had some sort of
signal.
I think it was a sound that played,
a tone that played.
And these Skinner boxes, the little grates on
(44:48):
the bottom of them could be electrified.
So they could deliver shock to the feet
of the rats.
And so what they would do is they
would play a very long tone.
And then at the end of that tone,
the rats would get a shock through the
levers of the, or through the bars on
the bottom of the Skinner box.
(45:09):
Now, these rats were all trained to press
the lever in that Skinner box on, I
can't remember what the schedule of reinforcement was,
but they were pressing very steadily and very
regularly, and they were getting food for pressing
that lever.
And so they were measuring that as sort
(45:29):
of a baseline of ongoing behavior.
So the rats are steadily pressing, steadily pressing,
steadily pressing, eating their little rat pellets.
And then they'd start pairing long tone, shock
follows.
The first couple of times they played that
tone, the rat's behavior did not change.
(45:49):
They just keep doing their thing and keep
pressing and pressing, and they're ignoring the tone.
They'd get shocked and they'd kind of jump,
startle for a second.
They'd stop pressing the lever for a second,
and then they'd recover pretty quickly.
After just a couple of those pairings, when
they would play that long tone, all of
a sudden the rat would stop.
(46:10):
They'd stop pressing that lever.
Even though the tone has nothing to do
with the lever, the tone doesn't change the
schedule of reinforcement.
Food is still available.
The rat could go right on pressing and
keep getting food during that time.
But all of those rats would stop responding
during that tone.
They'd get the shock, and then they'd go
(46:30):
right back to responding.
And they'd often go back to responding even
faster, almost like they were trying to make
up for that lost time.
And so Skinner was conceptualizing that change in
behavior, that time when the rat pauses and
goes, oh crap, it's coming, that he was
saying, that's anxiety.
We can operationalize anxiety.
(46:51):
We can measure it.
And all it is is a change in
behavior when there's an upcoming aversive event signaled.
That's how I got into figuring out, okay,
we can look at it the same way.
In kids with autism who cannot tell us
how they're feeling, we can assume anxiety is
(47:15):
any change in behavior when there is something
aversive upcoming that's being signaled in their environment.
And so we ended up running a study
that was set up kind of similarly to
what Skinner did.
And I know that people are going to
be like, oh, my God, that sounds horrifying.
I promise it wasn't.
(47:36):
We went through extensive ethics reviews.
But basically what we would do is we
would find some things that our participants found
aversive in their everyday life that were reportedly
anxiety provoking.
So we would survey caregivers and say, okay,
(47:57):
you've told us such and such kid has
a lot of anxiety.
What things provoke that anxiety?
What things stress them out or make them
nervous?
And for most of these kids, it was
regular everyday things like noise, going to the
doctor or the nurse.
For one of our participants, it was restricted
(48:19):
access to condiments during lunch.
Like he had this thing where he would
want to just put tons of ketchup and
mustard on everything that he ate, and he
wasn't allowed to do that.
But then that led to all kinds of
challenging behavior leading up to lunchtime because he
was so stressed out about how much ketchup
and mustard am I going to get at
lunch today?
(48:41):
And basically what we did is we set
up a similar situation.
So we would bring these kids into our
lab, which was just a small room they'd
never been in.
We'd play with them for a little while.
We'd bring all their favorite toys.
We'd bring their favorite snacks.
We'd make it a good time.
And then we would measure ongoing behavior.
(49:04):
So we'd look at what are they doing
when they're just like hanging out in the
room?
When there's nothing going on, there's nothing aversive
signaled.
Are they moving around?
Are they engaging in stereotypic behavior like hand
flapping?
Are they talking?
Are they making noise?
Are they crying?
Are they whining?
(49:25):
And then we would have a five-minute
baseline period where me or whoever the experimenter
was would just sit in the room and
hang out with the kid.
And then we would have a one-minute
signal period where we would have a computer
that would turn on and it would show
a picture of the thing that we thought
(49:47):
provoked anxiety for them.
So like for the kid with the condiment
issue, it would be a picture of ketchup
and mustard with a big no symbol over
them.
And we would direct the kids to the
screen and say, hey, in one minute, this
thing is going to happen.
So in his case, we'd say in one
(50:07):
minute, you're going to have a snack, but
you cannot have any condiments.
For another kid, it was noise.
We'd say in one minute, I'm going to
play a loud noise.
And we'd wait one minute and we'd measure
behavior during that one-minute signal.
When the signal was up, the computer would
turn off, and then we would expose them
(50:27):
to that trigger or that thing that we
thought caused anxiety for one minute.
So like for our condiment guy, we'd give
him a bagel.
We'd have a box of condiments that was
locked up that he could see the condiments
in.
And we'd be like, oh, no, we can't
get this open.
You're going to have to have a plain
bagel.
(50:47):
For the kid with loud noise, we'd play
like a car alarm sound.
All the things that we did were, I
know when I talk about this, it sounds
like, man, that was kind of mean to
do.
But we'd expose them to the thing for
one minute.
We'd measure behavior during that minute.
(51:08):
And then we'd go to another baseline where
we would just hang out again.
And then we'd end the session again with
all their favorite things.
We'd bring in their favorite snacks, favorite toys.
We'd have a great time.
And we'd run a couple of sessions like
that with each kid.
And so what we're looking for there is,
is there a change in behavior?
We're looking at baseline rates of behavior.
(51:30):
We're looking at behavior during the signal, that
time when we're saying, hey, this thing's going
to happen.
We're looking at behavior during the actual event.
And then we're looking at how they recover
afterwards.
So we have another baseline period.
And in that way, we're saying, okay, anxiety
is that change in behavior that we see
(51:51):
during the signal.
So now we can define it.
And for most kids, anxiety looked like multiple
different things.
It wasn't just one behavior.
It was usually a cluster of different behaviors.
And we did try to measure physiological responses
as well.
But this was back in 2008.
We started that work back in 2010.
(52:11):
So we didn't really have great technology like
we do now.
If I was doing it now with all
the smart watches and rings and things like
that, we could have gotten a lot better
measures.
But we were measuring mostly outward signs of
things that we can see.
And so it's the same with dogs.
It's the same with animals.
We can look at what are the things
(52:34):
that their caregivers are reporting are causing stress
or causing anxiety.
And then we can look at what are
things in their environment that are signaling that
that thing is about to happen.
So, for example, my dog came with some
very bad dog reactivity.
One of the things that was a trigger
(52:55):
for her was hearing jingling collars or jingling
tags or jingling anything.
Because the sound of jingling tags predicts a
dog is about to come.
And so we can set up a similar
paradigm to actually measure anxiety and look at
what kinds of behavior is she engaging in
(53:16):
that would indicate to us that this is
about to be a problem.
And then how can we change that behavior?
And so in our study with the kids
on the autism spectrum, what we did after
that assessment period was we moved into treatment
where we would do exactly what we do
in dog training.
(53:37):
Basically, systematic desensitization where we go, okay, in
one minute, I'm going to play a loud
noise.
But when we started our treatment, that loud
noise initially was very, very quiet.
We played at the level that they could
handle it and that they weren't having challenging
behavior.
And we would teach them alternative behavior to
(53:58):
engage in.
So for our students, we taught them things
like squeezing a stress ball and taking deep
breaths and putting their shoulders down and sitting
back in their chair.
So we pick other behavior to teach them.
We practice it where we're dialing down the
aversive stimulus first, and we get them really
good at engaging in other behavior.
(54:20):
And then we slowly turn up the dial
on the scary thing or the anxiety-provoking
thing.
And so that's all translated really well to
the work that I'm doing now.
It's the same basic model for any problem
that's anxiety-based or fear-based.
We teach a different behavior, and then we
(54:41):
slowly turn up the dial on the scary
thing.
Well, I have so many questions, but looking
at the time, we should head towards wrapping
this up.
But if you're enjoying this, the listener, we're
going to keep geeking out with Cara on
the science in part two of our conversation,
which will be the episode that follows this.
(55:02):
And we'll also talk about how you, the
listener, can ground or build upon what you're
doing to even better ground your work in
the science.
So we will be continuing in part two.
For now, though, I want to share gratitude
to Cara for sharing.
I was hoping to talk about anxiety, and
we naturally got there without me prompting it.
(55:24):
So that was enjoyable and informative.
So thank you very much for sharing everything
about your story and ending up with radical
behaviorism and talking about anxiety.
That was amazing.
Just before we do officially wrap up, though,
can you just share with everyone listening where
they can go to find you on the
(55:46):
interwebs, find out more about you, what you're
doing, get in touch?
Yeah, so my dog training business is called
Pet Project Dog Training.
And I haven't got around to making a
real legitimate website, so I'm using a link
tree as my website still.
But if you Google Pet Project Dog Training,
(56:07):
that should be the first thing that pops
up.
And you can find me on Instagram at
Pet Project Dog Training.
That's one of my big things right now
is I'm working on just building my presence
on Instagram and social media.
And you can find me on YouTube as
well.
All of my different accounts are all linked
to each other.
So if you find one, you can find
(56:28):
them all.
And we didn't talk about sleep at all,
but my sleep consulting is More Behavior Consulting,
M-O-O-R-E, like my last
name, Behavior Consulting.
And on that, that actually has a website,
morebehaviorconsulting.com.
And on that, you can find links to
(56:48):
all of the work that I've done on
anxiety, all the work I've done on sleep.
There's a whole bunch of podcast episodes that
I've recorded on those two things with people
in the human behavior analysis community.
And so if people are interested in those
topics, that's a great place to start.
Amazing.
And we will, of course, link to all
of that in the show notes.
And I don't think anyone's ever come on
(57:10):
the podcast, Karen, and said, well, I have
a website.
It's perfect.
Nothing needs doing on it.
It's absolutely great.
And the reason I bring that up is
we had a member in our community just
this week who's just getting started and posted
a question about what to put on their
Instagram and their first post.
(57:32):
And the phrase, and I don't know who
said this, perfection is the enemy of good
enough and good enough gets results.
So I'm celebrating your Linktree account and we
will link to that and everything else you
have mentioned.
So this has been so much fun.
So from myself and on behalf of everyone
listening, we really appreciate you taking the time
(57:52):
to come and hang out with us and
looking forward to part two.
All right.
And thank you so much for listening as
well.
This is your host, Ryan Cartlidge, signing off
from this episode of the Animal Training Academy
podcast show.
We hope today's conversation inspired you and equipped
(58:14):
you with new tools for your trainer's toolbox.
Remember, every challenge in training is an opportunity
to learn and sharpen your animal training geekery.
Embrace the rough patches, learn from them and
keep improving.
And don't forget the path to growing your
skills and expanding your knowledge continues beyond this
(58:38):
episode.
Visit www.atamember.com to join our supportive
membership where you will find a community of
trainers just like you.
Together, we're making a huge positive difference in
the lives of animal and human learners worldwide.
(59:00):
Until next time, keep honing your skills.
Stay awesome.
And remember, every interaction with an animal or
human learner is your opportunity to create ripples.
We're here cheering you on every step of
the way.
See you at the next episode.
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