August 25, 2025 • 60 mins
In this inspiring first half of a two-part conversation, we’re joined by the innovative and passionate Dr. Mari Valgma - Certified Professional Canine Fitness Trainer, creator of Movement Puzzles, and trailblazer bringing evidence-based training from Estonia to the world.
Mari’s story is anything but ordinary. From pursuing a PhD in maritime engineering in the UK to pioneering canine fitness training back home in Estonia, her journey reflects a powerful blend of problem-solving, resilience, and creativity. What started as a search to support her own dog’s joint health has grown into a global movement helping thousands of dogs gain confidence, coordination, and joy through movement-based training.
Together, we explore:
✅ How Mari’s engineering background shaped her approach to canine fitness
✅ The pivotal role her dogs played in her shift from academia to training
✅ Why fitness is foundational to both physical wellness and behavioral confidence
✅ The challenges and triumphs of building a dog training career in a small country
✅ The evolution of Movement Puzzles from sport dog fitness to a confidence-building tool for all dogs
Mari’s journey is a vivid reminder that when we follow curiosity, honor the dogs in front of us, and embrace creative problem-solving, entirely new possibilities emerge - for dogs, their people, and the wider training community. Stay tuned for part two, where we’ll dive deep into the nuts and bolts of Movement Puzzles and their transformative impact.
Links
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Website: www.themovingcanine.com
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Free two-ball game training series: available via the website
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Facebook: Mari Valgma – The Moving Canine
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Instagram: @the.moving.canine
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
Welcome to the Animal Training Academy podcast show.
I'm your host, Ryan Carledge, and I'm passionate
about helping you master your animal training skills
using the most positive and least intrusive approaches.
Here at ATA, we understand that navigating the
vast challenges you encounter in training requires a
(00:27):
comprehensive base of knowledge and experience.
It's common to face obstacles and rough patches
on your journey that can leave you feeling
overwhelmed and stressed.
Therefore, since 2015, we've been on a mission
to empower animal training geeks worldwide.
We've aided thousands in developing their skills, expanding
(00:51):
their knowledge, boosting their confidence, and maximizing their
positive impact on all the animal and human
learners they work with.
We are excited to do the same for
you.
Simply visit www.atamember.com, join our vibrant
(01:12):
community, and geek out with us.
And of course, in the meantime, enjoy this
free podcast episode as we explore new ways
to help you supercharge your training skills, grow
your knowledge, and build your confidence so that
you can craft a life that positively impacts
(01:32):
every learner you encounter.
But we will start today's episode where I'll
be talking to a Maori volgmer.
Maori is a certified professional canine fitness trainer
who is passionate about helping dog training enthusiasts
(01:52):
build their dog's confidence through movement and body
awareness.
In 2020, Maori created Movement Puzzles, initially as
a fitness tool to support working and sport
dogs with balance and coordination.
But it quickly became clear that these puzzles
offered so much more.
Handlers began noticing remarkable changes, improved confidence, reduced
(02:15):
reactivity, better focus, independent performance, and stronger obstacle
commitment.
Since then, Movement Puzzles has grown into a
thriving community of over 2000 members, all dedicated
to kind, empowering training.
Our guest's work has been featured by the
Fenzie Dog Sports Academy, Agility Nation, and numerous
(02:38):
international dog training summits.
And their true passion lies in helping dogs
feel confident, capable, and ready for anything life
throws their way.
So without further ado, it's my very great
pleasure to welcome Mari to the show today,
who is patiently waiting by, as we often
say on the show, on the other side
(02:58):
of the planet, this time in Estonia.
Mari, thank you so much for taking the
time to come and hang out with us
at Animal Training Academy.
Hi, and I'm super excited to be here.
And thank you for inviting me to be
on the show.
Oh, my absolute pleasure.
As I think I said to you when
we caught up a few weeks ago, I'm
(03:20):
not sure, I'd have to double check.
But I don't think we've had a guest
from Estonia before.
So I'm really curious.
No, we are quite rare.
Yeah, when you think about your country, and
the international reach that you've achieved, so congratulations
(03:40):
on that firstly.
But when you think about that, can you
think of other trainers in your country whom
have pushed their other personal brand or dog
training, niche product, whatever it is out into
the world?
No, not really.
There are some trainers who are known in
(04:01):
sports circles, so very focused training in sports
circles and who are known internationally.
But as I may be mistaken, but I
don't think there's anyone actively teaching in English
and providing services to the international community.
(04:22):
And is English, tell me about English in
Estonia.
Does everyone talk English?
Is English, do kids learn English in school?
Yes, yes.
As a small nation, we do speak multiple
languages, we usually speak two or three languages
at least.
Many of us speak even more.
(04:43):
So we regularly speak our neighbors languages, because
like there are lots of languages around us.
And Estonians in general, they do speak one
big language as well.
Many people speak German, Spanish, English.
How many languages do you speak?
(05:05):
Fluently, just two.
English and Estonian.
English and Estonian.
But at school, I did learn Russian.
And when I graduated from high school, then
I was pretty good in Russian as well.
But as I don't really use it daily,
then it's kind of you forget it when
you don't use it.
(05:25):
Of course.
Well, I'm curious to learn more about what
it's like to be a evidence-based positive
reinforcement, whatever you want to label yourself as
dog trainer in Estonia.
So we'll dive into that in today's episode.
I was excited today to speak to you
just because I know nothing about Estonia.
(05:47):
I know about New Zealand, I know about
the States, because I follow so many people
in the States.
But we have a few members from Estonia
in our Animal Training Academy, which is super
exciting.
But other than that, and I would guess
that for you, the listener of this show,
(06:07):
unless you're from Estonia yourself, and you're one
of those people, you probably know a little
about what's going on with our joint mission,
I'm going to say, to improve the lives
of dogs and other non-human learners and
human learners in the work that we do.
So I'm super curious to learn about that.
But before we do, let's go back, because
(06:28):
I want to know about your story, Mari.
I want to know where you started your
journey into positive reinforcement dog training.
And share some stories with us from your
behaviour odyssey, as we like to call it.
Right, so I think, or I consider myself
very lucky, because my training journey, or my
(06:48):
life with dogs actually started by first reading
the classics, like Suzanne Clothier's Bones Would Rain
From the Sky.
And Patricia McConnell's, I believe it's The Other
End of the Leash is the title of
her book.
So these are the two books that I
had read multiple times before I even got
my first dog.
(07:09):
So I had this idea of how dog
training should be and how it should look
like, and it all looked so beautiful.
And then I got my first dog, it
was, it wasn't that long ago, actually, it
was, I think it was just 12 or
13 years ago.
(07:30):
And I got my first dog, who was
then an adult dog.
And we started training together.
And I very quickly realised that when I
go to the training sessions, the local club,
then it's not all positive reinforcement based training.
But I still I was very lucky, my
first coach in the training club was like,
(07:52):
like I got the best possible start you
could ask for in the dog training world.
But then my second dog who I got
soon after, with her, I wasn't quite as
lucky because she was having some health problems.
I came to realise that she needed fitness
training to help maintain good quality life for
(08:15):
her.
And back then in Estonia, there weren't basically
any options for that.
And I felt stuck.
But it's like the one thing about me
is that I tried to find solutions for
my dog.
So the dog that is in front of
me, I tried to do the best I
can to find the solution.
(08:37):
Like even if I have to, I don't
necessarily travel to the other side of the
world.
But now with all the online services, you
can get access to the services on the
other side of the world.
And I noticed that, or I discovered that
Fancy Dog Sports Academy has pretty cool fitness
(08:57):
classes that were available online.
And I signed up for these classes, they
basically changed my life, because I became a
certified professional canine fitness trainer through Fancy Dog
Sports Academy only a few years after I
had just started with dog training or having
dogs in my life.
(09:18):
And yeah, that's how it started, how my
positive reinforcement training journey started.
So I have encountered other ways of training,
but not that much personally.
So only with respect to other people training
near me, or also, for example, when I
(09:39):
did search and rescue training, then there were
people training in alternative ways.
So we were just like training together alongside
each other.
And thinking back to when you read, I
think it's The Human End of the Leash,
(09:59):
because we're both going to get Patricia McConnell's
book title wrong.
And Susan Kofia's book.
Was this when you got your first dog?
It was before I got my first dog.
So I knew that I wanted to like,
get a dog.
Basically, I just googled in English, what are
(10:21):
the top three books that I should read
if I want to get the dog.
And these ones came up, obviously.
And I was like, oh, these are amazing.
And yeah, Susan Kofia's book is one of
my all time favorites.
It's an amazing book.
And so 13 years ago, 14 years ago,
(10:42):
so we're talking 2011 ish?
Yeah, 2012, maybe something around then.
So not that long ago.
What were you doing at that stage in
life?
Did you have a career already?
I was doing a PhD in maritime science
or maritime engineering in the UK, which is
(11:05):
probably why I ended up googling dog training
books in English.
Yeah, yeah.
So you were living in the UK at
the time?
Back then I was living in the UK.
Did you finish your PhD?
I did finish my PhD.
Yeah.
So I'm Dr. Mari Walug-Maksic.
(11:25):
Ah, I didn't know that.
So you said your research is in maritime
engineering?
Yeah.
So what does that mean?
I don't know, like if you said to
me, hey, Ryan, explain to me what a
maritime engineer was, I'd be like, I don't
know, make ships?
Yeah, it is shipbuilding.
(11:47):
But my specialty or my PhD was about
the aging of materials in seawater.
So basically, because materials don't stay 100%
full power in the seawater, then my PhD
was about investigating how they age in seawater
(12:09):
and how it affects their lifetime and what
new materials we can use that would also
meet these requirements.
But I have to admit that it's like
it was 80s ago when I did that.
And obviously things have changed a lot since
then in my life.
So I don't feel very comfortable talking about
that anymore.
(12:29):
Yeah.
So I'm assuming then that what you do
now and how you spend your days is
not what you would have envisioned when you
were studying?
Not back then, no.
But I can't say that I'm sorry how
things went.
I'm happy that I did my PhD.
(12:49):
I'm very happy that I had a chance
to live in the UK.
And I'm also very happy that I'm now
focused solely on dog training and helping dogs
and humans.
If we had said to you in 2012,
when you were reading Susan's book and Patricia's
book and doing your PhD in maritime engineering,
(13:13):
hey, Mari, where do you see yourself in
2025?
Like, what would you have said?
I probably would have said that I'm working
in some business or maybe at the university
focusing on maritime engineering or material science.
So is maritime engineering, like when you were
(13:34):
a little kid, you're like, mommy, daddy, I
want to do maritime engineering when I'm older.
Like, how does one get into maritime engineering?
Because my friends were there.
Right.
That's a valid reason.
You have your goes where your reinforcement flows,
right?
Exactly.
It was actually so when I was a
(13:57):
little kid, then I did want to go
and do a PhD in the UK.
So that was like valid.
I did it.
It's done.
But yeah, I didn't know, like in what
area.
And when I went to the university here
in Estonia, then I basically chose my specialty
based on that specialist description that if you
(14:20):
liked playing with Legos when you were a
kid, then this is the specialty for you.
And that's like, oh, there we go.
This one is for me.
And that was mechanical engineering.
And there I met my friends.
We are still good friends.
And they were like ship builders or maritime
(14:44):
engineers who are also studying together in the
mechanical engineering department.
So, yeah, we were hanging out and I
was like, I want to study maritime engineering
as well.
One reason, there's two reasons I'm asking about
this one, because I'm just genuinely curious about
something that I know nothing about.
(15:04):
And love that you wanted to do a
PhD in the UK, because that's quite an
ambitious goal.
It's quite an ambitious goal.
Yeah, especially for a kid.
I think I was eight years old when
I announced that.
Nice.
And I think that doing a PhD is
an ambitious goal, but doing a PhD, an
(15:27):
engineering PhD in another country is ambitious.
And so congratulations to you now and to
your eight year old self who fulfilled what
you said you were going to do.
But secondly, I get a lot of people,
a lot of our members, they private message
me, tell me where they're at, what their
(15:48):
goals are.
And a lot of people are in that
transitional period between figuring out how do I
make a living out of this?
How do I take this thing that's really
grabbed my attention?
They probably wouldn't have worded it like this,
but I can see that there's a lot
of red forces in this space, in this
(16:10):
dog training, animal training.
It doesn't necessarily need to be dogs in
this space for me that I'm not accessing
and making contact with in other areas of
my life.
So they're in that stage.
So I ask this because you're an example
of a radically different destination.
(16:30):
You know, you're still on the journey.
I get that.
But we're just talking about the present moment,
a very different destination than you were on
in 2011, 2012.
So what was it for you?
If you've invested the money, the sacrifices you'd
(16:51):
have to make to do your PhD, the
time, how do you reconcile in your mind?
I'm going to put that down and I'm
going to focus on dog training and make
my living and my purpose in that space.
It's a big decision, was it not?
I think that it was for my grandmother.
(17:14):
We'll get your grandmother on the show.
Because like, you know, like very many relatives
are always like worried that, oh, my goodness,
you just finished your PhD.
Are you just like throwing away your career?
And I'm like, what career?
I haven't got the career yet.
(17:34):
And all these concerns.
But for me, actually, it wasn't so much
about getting a PhD, but experiencing living in
the UK, which I which was the thing
that I actually wanted to do.
So the fact that I got the PhD
as a result, it's just like a bonus
(17:55):
for me.
But I really value the time that I
had in the UK.
And I think that I'm using everything that
I got from the UK, like being comfortable
speaking English.
Not worried about making mistakes when I'm presenting
my stuff.
All of these things, they they are still
valuable to me today in my work.
(18:18):
So I don't think that it was that
there isn't that much difference to me.
At least there isn't.
I mean, there's many people that come on
the podcast and say the fact that I
got a PhD was just a bonus.
Pretty nice bonus.
Um, no, I'm thinking as you're talking back
(18:38):
to a phone call, I remember this phone
call and it was roughly around the same
time, probably a little bit earlier, 2007, 2008
or something, my parents calling me up and
I was volunteering at a wildlife rehabilitation place,
breeding endangered wallabies in Australia.
And they're like, express similar concerns.
(19:01):
I think it's like kind of unites all
the parents and grandparents in the world.
Yeah, concerns.
And I was also thinking as I watched
my two children play relentlessly with their Duplo
Lego at the moment, oh, maybe there's some
little maritime engineers in my house.
(19:21):
You never know.
You never know.
So what was it then for you?
You got your second dog.
What issues did your second dog have?
She had hypermobility in her joints, which means
that her joints were moving a bit too
much, more than they should.
And it first started with torn cruciate ligaments
(19:45):
in both knees.
And she was less than one year old
when that happened.
So she was like, she was a puppy
when she already got the torn cruciate ligaments.
And then she got the diagnosis that most
of her joints were allowing too big range
(20:06):
of motion.
And back then, the orthopedist basically told me
that she would have so many injuries that
at the end, you will have to just
decide to let her go because of all
the injuries that she's getting.
And I would say that my big triumph
was that she passed away last summer, not
(20:29):
due to the orthopedic condition, but it was
a different reason.
But she didn't have a single injury in
10 years of her life after these cruciate
ligament tears.
And I'm very proud of that, of what
we achieved with fitness training.
You should be really proud of that.
(20:50):
What's the lesson there?
What did you do when you were told
that by your orthopedist?
I started looking for solutions.
And I can't remember how I discovered that
fitness training might be the thing.
Because back then, there was no canine fitness
training in Estonia whatsoever.
(21:11):
And I wasn't in an infosphere where I
would learn about it.
So I can't remember how did I discover
that maybe I should look for fitness training.
But somehow I did.
And when I started googling, so how can
I find some online programs, then I found
(21:33):
the programs at Fancy Dog Sports Academy.
And that's how my journey at the Fancy
Dog Sports Academy started, because I'm still an
active student in there.
I'm regularly taking their classes and I'm a
big fan.
So you weren't like, I don't accept that,
my dog's not going to have injuries.
You were more like, how can I minimize
(21:54):
the injuries this dog's going to have?
Yeah, how can I make sure that she
can live a quality life?
And how do you...
I guess I did want to avoid injuries,
but like, just to make sure that I'm
doing the best I can to make sure
that she wouldn't have all these injuries.
(22:15):
And I don't know much about hypermobility.
So is this a genetic condition?
What is it something to do with experiences
during puppyhood?
It's most likely genetic.
So it's not necessarily caused by the environment
or how the puppy is raised.
(22:36):
But to be honest, I do have very
conflicting information on that and I haven't researched
it in a while.
So I'm not sure if my information is
very up to date.
And were these torn ligaments at such an
early age, did they impact your dog's resilience,
(22:58):
your dog's confidence?
Did they have an impact?
Yes, she was an insecure dog.
And because she was lame most of her
puppyhood, then we couldn't really like go to
places or do things together.
And back then I was also, I was
actually like a novice dog person.
So I didn't know that much or that
well about things back then.
(23:18):
But as I became more aware of how
to train, how to use positive reinforcement, how
to do it well.
Then I would say that at the end
of her life, she was like a happy,
normal dog who was quite confident in most
of her daily situations and things that she
(23:40):
would encounter.
And random question, but your engineering background and
thinking about how things work and how things
are put together.
Does that give you like, when you think
about hypermobility and how dogs put together, does
your engineering background and brain kind of click?
(24:03):
It helped a lot.
Right now, I don't feel it anymore that
much.
But when I was just getting started, then
having engineering background helped me a lot to
understand how bodies work, where biggest stresses will
be.
And all of these things and how strengthening
(24:24):
the muscles around the joints will help the
dog and all these things.
So I remember that my brain went constantly
like doing these parallel lines that we're learning
about anatomy and fitness training.
And then going back to, oh, but this
links to this engineering principle, basically.
(24:44):
Because most of the engineering stuff also comes
from nature, really.
Yeah, I guess nature and anatomical features and
design of bodies from long, long time, long
periods of evolution are some of the biggest
marvels of engineering on the planet.
(25:05):
Probably, I would say so, yeah.
When you say a lot of engineering comes
from nature, what do you mean?
Wings, for example.
Wings, yeah.
Plane wings.
I remember when I was in the university,
then I was really into this thing and
(25:26):
reading different books of engineering marvels of the
nature.
So, for example, tree branches, that they have
this optimum curve when they are joining the
tree trunk so that they wouldn't break and
to make sure that stress concentrations wouldn't get
(25:52):
too high and so on.
These similar solutions now used in human-made
engineering, they follow similar principles.
As you were talking, it made me think
about gratitude.
I try to be grateful every day for
little things like my fingers, which I'm now
(26:13):
using to navigate my mouse.
Because these are the things we don't think
about.
And I've never thought about the angle of
a tree branch before.
And so that's something I'm going to be
grateful for today because the leaves go on
the trees and we need the leaves to
do their work so that we can live
on this planet.
Thank you, evolution and perfectly angled tree branches.
(26:39):
So what was it about fitness?
You went to Fensi Dog Sports.
When you say certified fitness trainer, I don't
even know enough about what that is.
Can you explain your journey?
It's basically a certificate that tells me that
I have passed, I think it was an
(27:00):
eight month long course together with the written
and practical exam.
So it's a certificate.
To show that I passed the course and
I'm certified to do canine fitness training and
(27:22):
offer services in that area.
So what is involved in having a fit
canine?
Because I'm assuming that that would cover starting
young.
What can we do for puppies?
What can we do for adolescence dogs?
What can we do for adults?
So how does it all?
Yes, so also now I've actually moved away
(27:44):
a little bit from the traditional canine fitness
training that I originally learned.
And I know that the principles in there
are also constantly evolving.
So you always discover a little bit more.
More information becomes available and then it's like
you know things that maybe weren't true five
(28:05):
or six years ago that we didn't know
about.
But the most common approach, I guess, is
strengthening workouts to make sure that the muscles
are supporting the joints, that they're supporting the
back.
And helping the canine athlete to use his
(28:29):
body in the best possible and most efficient
way.
And make sure that all the so-called
weak spots are supported so that when they
do put repetitive loads on the body, for
example, jumping in agility, which is quite repetitive
behavior, you have quite many jumps.
(28:50):
That the body is then capable of dealing
with distresses in the body and make sure
that they don't become overload injuries.
So having a fit canine or being involved
in canine fitness training, it's actually quite a
lot of work, to be honest.
It's like having a proper training routine for
(29:11):
the dog and regularly doing the exercises with
the dog.
And what's your thinking now about canine fitness?
Are you thinking about what you provide your
movement puzzles and the work that you do?
Are you wanting to help people who have
(29:36):
dogs who are doing repetitive behaviors, putting repetitive
loads on the body in terms of sport?
Or are you like dogs in general, your
dog sitting at home by your feet, your
pet dogs, they're not fit enough.
We need to make dogs more fit.
Where do you see, what's your kind of
drive and your passion and who you want
(29:57):
to help?
So when I first started with movement puzzles,
then it was mainly focused on working and
sport dogs.
Mostly because I saw with my own young
dog that he was, although he had been
doing fitness training for most of his life,
then he was struggling with specific situations like
(30:19):
tight left turns.
In sports activities or with him, we were
also involved in search and rescue training.
And there were some specific situations where I
saw that you would say that maybe that
he wasn't comfortable or confident enough in these
situations.
But for me, because I have the fitness
(30:40):
training background, for me, everything, basically every problem
links back to fitness training.
And does my dog actually have the physical
skills to do that exercise?
So for my dog, because the situations that
he was struggling with, these situations always involved
movement.
(31:01):
So they weren't like stationary positions or being
strong in specific situations or having enough power.
It was more about him struggling to coordinate
his movements while actually like in motion and
running.
Because in most work or sport situations, the
(31:23):
dogs are running and they then have to
coordinate their bodies while in motion.
And I developed movement puzzles for that purpose,
because movement puzzles, essentially, they are a pattern
exercise where the dog moves from one pole
to another.
He does it independently from the human without
any handler cues.
(31:44):
And also the dog does it on his
own initiative.
So it's not lured or forced somehow or
by taking away the dog's choice by limiting,
like creating a channel, for example.
That's not something that we do.
And I used this two-ball game pattern
that I learned from Milen Lohler at Fancy
(32:06):
Dog Sports Academy.
And I started creating these manufactured setups that
imitated what my dog was struggling with in
sport and work situations.
So I created these setups where he would
have to focus on his precise paw placement.
(32:29):
And thanks to him knowing how to move
from one pole to another, I could easily
add in movement to these exercises.
So he was essentially practicing how to coordinate
his movements while in motion.
And basically all of his problems at work
and in sport exercises disappeared.
(32:50):
And I started my first movement puzzles course
in English.
But the students started reporting back to me
that, oh, by the way, we started with
movement puzzle training.
And now I'm noticing all these other changes
in my dog, like lower reactivity, feeling more
(33:11):
confident.
Dogs were becoming more focused during training sessions,
less impulsive, making better choices while moving.
And by now, I would say that movement
puzzles, we do use it for fitness training
purposes as well, for working and sport dogs.
(33:31):
But it has actually become a confidence boosting
training tool, mostly.
So for me, confidence boosting is very closely
linked to fitness training, so I would never
separate them.
But I am very passionate about helping dogs
(33:53):
feel good in their bodies, feel confident.
And for me, this means that they are
also confident interacting with the world and exploring
more and having fun.
Just the other day, Mari, because we've got
two kids at home.
I was mentioned, I think, already in the
show, one's one year old, one's five.
(34:13):
So my ability to fit fitness into my
life is a challenge.
But last Friday, I went out and brought
a walking pad.
I don't know if you have those in
the studio.
I think they're relatively new in New Zealand.
But it's like a treadmill that goes under
your desk without arms, so you can walk
(34:34):
and work at the same time.
I'm going to try it out for the
first time today.
But I know what that, I'm very motivated
because I know that when I get fitter,
I feel that confidence.
I remember back to one of the fittest
times of my life.
(34:56):
So one of the long stretches of gym
attendance that I've managed back pre-kids, pre
-wife.
Lots of time as I stare into the
distance with great recollection of what that was
like.
And I remember just, I was working in
(35:17):
a zoo at the time.
And there's just one memory and I don't,
it's quite interesting to me how that sticks
out so prominently in my mind.
Of just climbing the steps and just doing
so with an ease that I was like,
that was noticeable.
Climbing steps isn't hard.
(35:38):
I've never found hard climbing steps, but it
was just like, I kind of floated up
these steps.
And I was like, wow, like that is
the impact of this fitness and how that
made me feel.
And I can only imagine, because that's what
we can do, that a dog would, or
any species, would experience something that shares similarities
(36:00):
with that.
What we are seeing with my students' dogs,
then I think that dogs experience something similar.
Because when people start with these exercises, they
very quickly start saying that they are actually
seeing their dog moving with a lot more
confidence.
(36:20):
From their body courage, tail courage, head held
high, not like being shy or cautious about
things.
And they say that they very quickly see
it in other situations as well, not just
when doing these exercises.
But in other training scenarios.
And I have just like a similar story
(36:42):
to yours.
I think it was last spring when I
was just doing some gardening stuff and I
wanted to go and get a tool.
But there was a small brick wall in
front of me.
And previously I would have walked around the
wall.
But because I had been doing some parkour
(37:02):
style training recently.
Then I was just like, I didn't even
think about it, I just climbed straight over
the wall.
Because I was just like, for me it
was the most obvious path to take and
I knew that I can easily do it.
But without that parkour style training, I would
have walked around the wall.
Because in my mind, even without thinking about
(37:24):
it, I would have decided that this isn't
for me.
And with our students' dogs, it also scares
me actually how many of them tell me
that when they start with these exercises.
They notice that their dogs start doing mischievous
things.
In the sense that previously they thought that
(37:46):
their dog was just being super well behaved
and polite.
By not doing certain things like getting on
the furniture.
But it came out that the dogs just
didn't know that it was physically an option
for them.
That they were capable of doing it.
And after doing this movement puzzle style training,
they start doing this.
(38:08):
What you might label mischievous, but it's actually
just a dog discovering that.
Oh my goodness, I can actually do this
and it's easy and I have the skills.
And while some of the things are maybe
something that you don't want actually your dog
to do.
Then obviously I would assume that we also
have the skills to then teach our dogs
(38:29):
not to do them in certain situations.
But it also makes me just wonder how
limited our dogs may be sometimes.
Because they just don't believe that things are
physically an option.
And it may be just like with me
with a wall that they don't even think
(38:50):
about certain things being an option for them.
And once they discover that, oh my goodness,
I can actually balance on high surfaces above
from the ground.
Oh my goodness, the world is my oyster.
I can go on exploring now.
Yeah, it opens up lots more opportunities for
(39:10):
access to reinforcement I can imagine.
Yeah, exactly.
And also like exploring and developing new skills
just through exploring and discovering things in the
nature more.
Because these same dogs, they also tend to
be very limited in their choices when they
go for walks.
That maybe they just walk on a path
(39:32):
or maybe just like behind you.
So they don't really go exploring, which means
that they won't get like full benefits of
nature exploration either.
And just something else that struck me from
what you're doing.
And I know that during this episode, you
mentioned, oh, you know, it's not that long
(39:54):
ago.
I got my dog not that long ago.
But I don't want to minimize what you've
managed to do in that time.
Oh no, I think it's pretty amazing that
it's like such a short time.
Yeah, OK, good, good.
I think sometimes it's obviously you can't see
your work from anyone's perspective and experience, but
(40:17):
your own.
But one thing that I just wanted to
hear in your words, how it was for
you putting together a training exercise that helps
your individual dog.
Great, cool.
Like I can go, OK, cool, I've got
this problem, came up with a solution.
(40:40):
So many reinforcers in there.
I think if it was me doing that,
one, just the creative process of coming up
with a solution.
I find that incredibly reinforcing.
Two, like setting it up and being like,
OK, cool, now this idea is out of
my head and it's got like some tangible
reality to it.
Three, implementing it, probably failing, I imagine, for
(41:04):
a while and figuring out what doesn't work.
And then persisting with determination through that to
get something that's actually helping your dog and
got tangible results.
And then being able to share that with
other people and help them get results through.
(41:24):
So they're basically getting the fruits of your
labor and you can nourish them.
I mean, that must be incredibly reinforcing.
And I just wanted to acknowledge that firstly
and ask you, you know, what was it
like when you realized like this thing I've
done just to help my own dog out
(41:45):
now is helping dogs all over the world?
That wasn't that straightforward, to be honest.
Because when I first started teaching movement puzzles,
then I actually stopped teaching it for a
while.
So I think that I released the first
(42:06):
course in 2020 and that was it.
It was just the first course.
And for me, it didn't really click.
I wasn't a fan.
And later I realized it was because back
then I just, for me, somehow it didn't
click as a fitness training tool.
(42:28):
Because like there are so many different elements
in fitness training.
And I somehow felt like maybe I was
minimizing the traditional canine fitness training and the
need for it.
And I didn't want to do it because
it's super important.
To do that as well.
And I still get questions from people asking
(42:50):
like, oh, then I can just skip doing
my stationary fitness exercises.
And I'm like, no, you shouldn't stop doing
them.
It doesn't replace them.
It's a different tool that you use for
different purposes.
And for me, it became important when I
(43:11):
understood that we can help dogs on so
many different levels.
That it wasn't just for working and sport
dogs.
But now we have very many dogs who
are struggling with behavioral challenges, who can't go
on walks, for example.
So many behaviors are using movement puzzles to
(43:32):
help these clients to make sure that their
dogs are still getting some movement focused exercises.
And they can do it indoors.
If they can't go outside.
And we have a lot of timid dogs
who are very cautious of exploring, who are
scared of everything new in their environment.
And they are becoming a lot more confident
(43:53):
with movement puzzles.
And I find it very rewarding helping dogs
and their humans on that level.
And that's actually why I also enjoy this
work or profession a lot more than I
enjoyed engineering.
(44:14):
Because I did work as an engineer.
But as an engineer, you work with big
industries and big businesses.
You don't see you making any impact in
individuals' lives, to be honest.
But in this area, working with dogs and
their humans, you can actually see how things
(44:38):
are making a difference for other humans and
dogs.
Because for me, it's also important to make
sure that the human part of the team
is also happier or gets a solution to
something that they have been struggling with.
So I'm not sure if I answered your
(44:58):
question here, to be honest.
I think I got carried away a little
bit.
Perfect.
My mission is done then.
Getting our guests carried away is what I'm
aiming for.
I guess you're a maritime engineer.
You don't have the captain of a ship
ringing you up and saying, Hey, Mari, that
angle that was perfectly rounded, just like a
(45:19):
tree branch.
I'm just so grateful that you designed my
ship and we're all safe.
I guess you wouldn't get that kind of...
No one thinks about that kind of stuff,
do they?
You did answer the question because I think
you gave a very human answer to the
question.
And so much as you have an idea,
I mean, you had a study of one
at one point, right?
(45:40):
You had your dog and you had your
puzzles and you had the context in which
you applied that.
Part of that context being you didn't abandon
these fitness foundational components of what you managed
to achieve with your dog.
(46:02):
And so putting that out there, this is
what I was thinking when you were saying
that.
And this is what I mean by that
very human side of things is you're vulnerable.
There's a vulnerability that comes with this.
Thou has shifted from internal, from private to
external into a space where others might judge
(46:24):
me or criticize me or I might not
communicate things properly.
They use this opportunity a lot.
Did they?
Did you face that?
What did that look like for you?
Did it look like private messages?
Mostly I get what it looks like is
people claiming me of stealing other people's work.
(46:48):
And I'm like, I only discovered that other
person's work after I had done or put
my movement buses out into the world.
And people started telling me that I'm stealing
someone's work.
Then I was like, oh, I should look
up what this other person is doing.
So, yeah, like you do get that.
Not everyone loves you, but it's like if
(47:11):
you don't annoy someone, then you're playing it
too small.
Yeah.
And that's not about you.
Exactly.
I mean, that's about so many other things
other than you.
You is the last thing that that's about.
Also, I understand that there are some cases
(47:32):
in history when someone's work has been actually
stolen and monetized by others.
So I understand that people are concerned about
it.
Yeah.
And I guess the issue there isn't that
people aren't concerned about things that warrant concern
(47:54):
or haven't got constructive feedback about your work,
my work, anyone's work.
That's not the issue that I think is
welcomed and encouraged.
It's not that that is a thing.
I think it's how that is delivered and
what the motivations and intent approach can be.
(48:19):
Because I think also in your work or
my work or anyone's work, there's a cliche
saying, is any of it really our work?
It all came from somewhere.
And secondly, it's made me think about conversion
evolution.
You can have, for example, vultures, two different
(48:40):
groups of vultures that evolved in completely different
parts of the world in isolation, but look
anatomically similar and have adaptations for the same
purpose.
Yeah, exactly.
So one vulture didn't go, oh, do you
know what the vultures in Asia are doing?
Let's steal their idea.
(49:00):
Let's lose all of our feathers from our
head so that we can remain healthy when
we stick them in carcasses.
So one thing we're getting close to the
end of this episode and to the listeners
of the show, God, I have failed at
mentioning this earlier.
We are going to talk about movement puzzles
in part two of my conversation with Mari.
So we're going to dive deep into that.
(49:23):
But before we finish up, I'm just curious
about Estonia.
So you were in the UK doing a
PhD.
You obviously have moved home.
Estonia is home now.
Yes, it is.
I'm living in Estonia.
So back when I was reading Suzanne Glothier's
(49:43):
and Patricia McConnell's books, then I was preparing
for my move back to Estonia.
So my plan was to move to Estonia
and get a dog.
What a brilliant plan.
It's just such a different part of the
world to New Zealand.
I mean, I know that the geopolitical situation
at the moment, that's quite an ex-Soviet
(50:04):
Union country and you've got probably a lot
of societal...
It's not overly comfortable.
And really sorry for everything that's going on
in that space and how that, I'm sure,
adds stress not only to the society, but
to the individual as well.
And worries that we just, in other parts
of the world, don't have to contend with.
(50:26):
But in terms of positive reinforcement dog training,
and I can imagine for you, as it
is for me, because New Zealand is not
like, you know, there's probably more people.
How many people are in Estonia?
Let's compare our countries quickly.
I may be mistaken with the exact number,
(50:46):
but I think it's 1.3 million.
Oh, you're tiny then compared to us.
I was about to say New Zealand is
so small, about 5 million people.
But you're right.
You're huge.
Well, I feel so tiny when you think
about like members of ours and cities like
LA and London, you know, and there's like
four or five times the amount of people
(51:08):
in those cities than there are in our
countries.
So being in New Zealand, though, you know,
there are oceans between me and a lot
of the friends that I've made globally in
the animal training world.
And so community is super important and the
ability to connect with mentors and other people
(51:29):
and share ideas and support each other and
brainstorm problems to solutions.
So obviously you've got that because internet and
stuff.
But you've also got the local Estonia population
and the culture of you acting as an
(51:49):
individual with a joint.
I'm going to frame it as a mission
to us, which is to improve the lives
of dogs and their human learners through ethical
evidence based practices.
But what about Estonia?
Are you connected much to the training community
(52:11):
in your local region or are you more
because for me, like Animal Training Academy is
I'm more connected off to the global community
than necessarily locally.
But what about yourself?
It's the same for me.
And actually, like before I started teaching classes
in English, I did have canine fitness training
(52:37):
practice here in Estonia.
I started, I think it was in 2017.
It was in-person canine fitness classes and
I did it full time for three years.
So that's when COVID came in 2020 and
I had to shut down.
And so I know what it's like to
(52:59):
build a business in a very small country
to a very small audience.
Because that's the truth that if you are
living in a country that doesn't have a
very big population, then that also limits your
audience size as well.
(53:20):
But obviously, like when COVID came and I
was forced to close my business, then I
wouldn't just sit around and wait.
I was just like, all right, now it's
time to start an English business, online business.
So that's what I did.
But here in Estonia, I do have some
(53:42):
very good friends who are also who you
might call positive reinforcement and force-free trainers
and evidence-based trainers.
I do collaborate with quite a few of
them.
They offer their consultations through my online platform
in English.
So they are also expanding to the English
(54:04):
speaking audience.
But to be honest, in general, I would
say that the force-free and evidence-based
training community is small in Estonia.
There are definitely people who are seeking for
their support and services, but I have a
feeling that that's very much a minority of
(54:28):
dog guardians who seek that kind of support
at this stage.
Unfortunately, and also for movement puzzles, I don't
have a big audience in Estonia.
We have a couple of students from Estonia,
but not that many.
I'm very happy that we do have these
(54:48):
couple of students.
I'm always very excited to see an Estonian
name in my audience among my students.
So thank you if you are listening.
And is dog guardianship, dog ownership, do many
people have dogs in Estonia?
Yes, I would say so.
(55:09):
Many people have dogs, but you don't often
see dogs when you're moving around.
We don't have street dogs.
In that sense, you don't see dogs, but
also it's not that common or that welcome
to go with a dog to different places.
So I would say that there are quite
(55:31):
many dogs and people have dogs, but you
don't see them that often.
Are you talking about just taking your dog
to the shop or cafe or something, or
are you talking about walking your dog?
Even walking.
Obviously, there are rush hours when you have
a dog, then you know when to go
walking and you will see lots of dogs.
(55:52):
But in general, you don't see that many
dogs around.
That was actually something that my current dog's
breeder brought out.
She's from Austria and she mentioned that when
she traveled through Estonia, then it was amazing.
She didn't see any dogs and it didn't
look like dogs were very welcome.
(56:13):
For example, you can't even go on a
beach with a dog, even when it's not
a seasonal beach time.
I hadn't thought about it, but she's right
that you don't really see dogs that often.
I have more questions, but I think in
the interest of time, we will end towards
(56:36):
wrapping up here.
Firstly, thank you for sharing some of your
behaviour odyssey with us today.
We really enjoy learning about different people and
where they're from and what their journeys have
been like.
I really appreciate that.
I was hoping you could just share with
everyone before we wrap up part one where
they can go online to find out more
(56:59):
about you, movement patterns and get in touch.
The website or the formal website is themovingcanine
.com.
You will find our free training videos in
there.
We have a two-ball game free training
series that you can sign up for and
(57:20):
you can find more information about me and
what we offer on the website.
You can also find me on Facebook and
on Instagram.
On Facebook, it's Mari Valgma, the moving canine
and Instagram is the.moving.canine or spelled
out.
That's how you can find me.
(57:40):
Amazing.
It's only in English, no Estonian, unfortunately, except
for one word, the marker word that I
use during training sessions.
It's tubli.
In Estonian, it means well done, like good
boy, basically.
Now people and my students are using it
(58:00):
all over the world, so tubli.
Love it.
We will link to all of it in
the show notes as well.
So thank you so much.
Our first ever marine engineer from Estonia for
being on our podcast.
Thank you very much, Dr. Valgma.
We really appreciate your time and coming to
(58:21):
hang out with us at Animal Training Academy
and looking forward to diving into movement puzzles
in part two.
Thank you so much for having me.
I really enjoyed our chat and I look
forward to part two.
And thank you so much for listening as
well.
This is your host, Ryan Cartlidge, signing off
(58:43):
from this episode of the Animal Training Academy
podcast show.
We hope today's conversation inspired you and equipped
you with new tools for your trainer's toolbox.
Remember, every challenge in training is an opportunity
to learn and sharpen your animal training geekery.
(59:04):
Embrace the rough patches, learn from them and
keep improving.
And don't forget, the path to growing your
skills and expanding your knowledge continues beyond this
episode.
Visit www.atamember.com to join our supportive
(59:24):
membership where you will find a community of
trainers just like you.
Together, we're making a huge positive difference in
the lives of animal and human learners worldwide.
Until next time, keep honing your skills, stay
awesome and remember every interaction with an animal
(59:46):
or human learner is your opportunity to create
ripples.
We're here cheering you on every step of
the way.
See you at the next episode.
Welcome to the Animal Training Academy podcast show.
I'm your host, Ryan Carledge, and I'm passionate
about helping you master your animal training skills
using the most positive and least intrusive approaches.
Here at ATA, we understand that navigating the
vast challenges you encounter in training requires a
(00:27):
comprehensive base of knowledge and experience.
It's common to face obstacles and rough patches
on your journey that can leave you feeling
overwhelmed and stressed.
Therefore, since 2015, we've been on a mission
to empower animal training geeks worldwide.
We've aided thousands in developing their skills, expanding
(00:51):
their knowledge, boosting their confidence, and maximizing their
positive impact on all the animal and human
learners they work with.
We are excited to do the same for
you.
Simply visit www.atamember.com, join our vibrant
(01:12):
community, and geek out with us.
And of course, in the meantime, enjoy this
free podcast episode as we explore new ways
to help you supercharge your training skills, grow
your knowledge, and build your confidence so that
you can craft a life that positively impacts
(01:32):
every learner you encounter.
But we will start today's episode where I'll
be talking to a Maori volgmer.
Maori is a certified professional canine fitness trainer
who is passionate about helping dog training enthusiasts
(01:52):
build their dog's confidence through movement and body
awareness.
In 2020, Maori created Movement Puzzles, initially as
a fitness tool to support working and sport
dogs with balance and coordination.
But it quickly became clear that these puzzles
offered so much more.
Handlers began noticing remarkable changes, improved confidence, reduced
(02:15):
reactivity, better focus, independent performance, and stronger obstacle
commitment.
Since then, Movement Puzzles has grown into a
thriving community of over 2000 members, all dedicated
to kind, empowering training.
Our guest's work has been featured by the
Fenzie Dog Sports Academy, Agility Nation, and numerous
(02:38):
international dog training summits.
And their true passion lies in helping dogs
feel confident, capable, and ready for anything life
throws their way.
So without further ado, it's my very great
pleasure to welcome Mari to the show today,
who is patiently waiting by, as we often
say on the show, on the other side
(02:58):
of the planet, this time in Estonia.
Mari, thank you so much for taking the
time to come and hang out with us
at Animal Training Academy.
Hi, and I'm super excited to be here.
And thank you for inviting me to be
on the show.
Oh, my absolute pleasure.
As I think I said to you when
we caught up a few weeks ago, I'm
(03:20):
not sure, I'd have to double check.
But I don't think we've had a guest
from Estonia before.
So I'm really curious.
No, we are quite rare.
Yeah, when you think about your country, and
the international reach that you've achieved, so congratulations
(03:40):
on that firstly.
But when you think about that, can you
think of other trainers in your country whom
have pushed their other personal brand or dog
training, niche product, whatever it is out into
the world?
No, not really.
There are some trainers who are known in
(04:01):
sports circles, so very focused training in sports
circles and who are known internationally.
But as I may be mistaken, but I
don't think there's anyone actively teaching in English
and providing services to the international community.
(04:22):
And is English, tell me about English in
Estonia.
Does everyone talk English?
Is English, do kids learn English in school?
Yes, yes.
As a small nation, we do speak multiple
languages, we usually speak two or three languages
at least.
Many of us speak even more.
(04:43):
So we regularly speak our neighbors languages, because
like there are lots of languages around us.
And Estonians in general, they do speak one
big language as well.
Many people speak German, Spanish, English.
How many languages do you speak?
(05:05):
Fluently, just two.
English and Estonian.
English and Estonian.
But at school, I did learn Russian.
And when I graduated from high school, then
I was pretty good in Russian as well.
But as I don't really use it daily,
then it's kind of you forget it when
you don't use it.
(05:25):
Of course.
Well, I'm curious to learn more about what
it's like to be a evidence-based positive
reinforcement, whatever you want to label yourself as
dog trainer in Estonia.
So we'll dive into that in today's episode.
I was excited today to speak to you
just because I know nothing about Estonia.
(05:47):
I know about New Zealand, I know about
the States, because I follow so many people
in the States.
But we have a few members from Estonia
in our Animal Training Academy, which is super
exciting.
But other than that, and I would guess
that for you, the listener of this show,
(06:07):
unless you're from Estonia yourself, and you're one
of those people, you probably know a little
about what's going on with our joint mission,
I'm going to say, to improve the lives
of dogs and other non-human learners and
human learners in the work that we do.
So I'm super curious to learn about that.
But before we do, let's go back, because
(06:28):
I want to know about your story, Mari.
I want to know where you started your
journey into positive reinforcement dog training.
And share some stories with us from your
behaviour odyssey, as we like to call it.
Right, so I think, or I consider myself
very lucky, because my training journey, or my
(06:48):
life with dogs actually started by first reading
the classics, like Suzanne Clothier's Bones Would Rain
From the Sky.
And Patricia McConnell's, I believe it's The Other
End of the Leash is the title of
her book.
So these are the two books that I
had read multiple times before I even got
my first dog.
(07:09):
So I had this idea of how dog
training should be and how it should look
like, and it all looked so beautiful.
And then I got my first dog, it
was, it wasn't that long ago, actually, it
was, I think it was just 12 or
13 years ago.
(07:30):
And I got my first dog, who was
then an adult dog.
And we started training together.
And I very quickly realised that when I
go to the training sessions, the local club,
then it's not all positive reinforcement based training.
But I still I was very lucky, my
first coach in the training club was like,
(07:52):
like I got the best possible start you
could ask for in the dog training world.
But then my second dog who I got
soon after, with her, I wasn't quite as
lucky because she was having some health problems.
I came to realise that she needed fitness
training to help maintain good quality life for
(08:15):
her.
And back then in Estonia, there weren't basically
any options for that.
And I felt stuck.
But it's like the one thing about me
is that I tried to find solutions for
my dog.
So the dog that is in front of
me, I tried to do the best I
can to find the solution.
(08:37):
Like even if I have to, I don't
necessarily travel to the other side of the
world.
But now with all the online services, you
can get access to the services on the
other side of the world.
And I noticed that, or I discovered that
Fancy Dog Sports Academy has pretty cool fitness
(08:57):
classes that were available online.
And I signed up for these classes, they
basically changed my life, because I became a
certified professional canine fitness trainer through Fancy Dog
Sports Academy only a few years after I
had just started with dog training or having
dogs in my life.
(09:18):
And yeah, that's how it started, how my
positive reinforcement training journey started.
So I have encountered other ways of training,
but not that much personally.
So only with respect to other people training
near me, or also, for example, when I
(09:39):
did search and rescue training, then there were
people training in alternative ways.
So we were just like training together alongside
each other.
And thinking back to when you read, I
think it's The Human End of the Leash,
(09:59):
because we're both going to get Patricia McConnell's
book title wrong.
And Susan Kofia's book.
Was this when you got your first dog?
It was before I got my first dog.
So I knew that I wanted to like,
get a dog.
Basically, I just googled in English, what are
(10:21):
the top three books that I should read
if I want to get the dog.
And these ones came up, obviously.
And I was like, oh, these are amazing.
And yeah, Susan Kofia's book is one of
my all time favorites.
It's an amazing book.
And so 13 years ago, 14 years ago,
(10:42):
so we're talking 2011 ish?
Yeah, 2012, maybe something around then.
So not that long ago.
What were you doing at that stage in
life?
Did you have a career already?
I was doing a PhD in maritime science
or maritime engineering in the UK, which is
(11:05):
probably why I ended up googling dog training
books in English.
Yeah, yeah.
So you were living in the UK at
the time?
Back then I was living in the UK.
Did you finish your PhD?
I did finish my PhD.
Yeah.
So I'm Dr. Mari Walug-Maksic.
(11:25):
Ah, I didn't know that.
So you said your research is in maritime
engineering?
Yeah.
So what does that mean?
I don't know, like if you said to
me, hey, Ryan, explain to me what a
maritime engineer was, I'd be like, I don't
know, make ships?
Yeah, it is shipbuilding.
(11:47):
But my specialty or my PhD was about
the aging of materials in seawater.
So basically, because materials don't stay 100%
full power in the seawater, then my PhD
was about investigating how they age in seawater
(12:09):
and how it affects their lifetime and what
new materials we can use that would also
meet these requirements.
But I have to admit that it's like
it was 80s ago when I did that.
And obviously things have changed a lot since
then in my life.
So I don't feel very comfortable talking about
that anymore.
(12:29):
Yeah.
So I'm assuming then that what you do
now and how you spend your days is
not what you would have envisioned when you
were studying?
Not back then, no.
But I can't say that I'm sorry how
things went.
I'm happy that I did my PhD.
(12:49):
I'm very happy that I had a chance
to live in the UK.
And I'm also very happy that I'm now
focused solely on dog training and helping dogs
and humans.
If we had said to you in 2012,
when you were reading Susan's book and Patricia's
book and doing your PhD in maritime engineering,
(13:13):
hey, Mari, where do you see yourself in
2025?
Like, what would you have said?
I probably would have said that I'm working
in some business or maybe at the university
focusing on maritime engineering or material science.
So is maritime engineering, like when you were
(13:34):
a little kid, you're like, mommy, daddy, I
want to do maritime engineering when I'm older.
Like, how does one get into maritime engineering?
Because my friends were there.
Right.
That's a valid reason.
You have your goes where your reinforcement flows,
right?
Exactly.
It was actually so when I was a
(13:57):
little kid, then I did want to go
and do a PhD in the UK.
So that was like valid.
I did it.
It's done.
But yeah, I didn't know, like in what
area.
And when I went to the university here
in Estonia, then I basically chose my specialty
based on that specialist description that if you
(14:20):
liked playing with Legos when you were a
kid, then this is the specialty for you.
And that's like, oh, there we go.
This one is for me.
And that was mechanical engineering.
And there I met my friends.
We are still good friends.
And they were like ship builders or maritime
(14:44):
engineers who are also studying together in the
mechanical engineering department.
So, yeah, we were hanging out and I
was like, I want to study maritime engineering
as well.
One reason, there's two reasons I'm asking about
this one, because I'm just genuinely curious about
something that I know nothing about.
(15:04):
And love that you wanted to do a
PhD in the UK, because that's quite an
ambitious goal.
It's quite an ambitious goal.
Yeah, especially for a kid.
I think I was eight years old when
I announced that.
Nice.
And I think that doing a PhD is
an ambitious goal, but doing a PhD, an
(15:27):
engineering PhD in another country is ambitious.
And so congratulations to you now and to
your eight year old self who fulfilled what
you said you were going to do.
But secondly, I get a lot of people,
a lot of our members, they private message
me, tell me where they're at, what their
(15:48):
goals are.
And a lot of people are in that
transitional period between figuring out how do I
make a living out of this?
How do I take this thing that's really
grabbed my attention?
They probably wouldn't have worded it like this,
but I can see that there's a lot
of red forces in this space, in this
(16:10):
dog training, animal training.
It doesn't necessarily need to be dogs in
this space for me that I'm not accessing
and making contact with in other areas of
my life.
So they're in that stage.
So I ask this because you're an example
of a radically different destination.
(16:30):
You know, you're still on the journey.
I get that.
But we're just talking about the present moment,
a very different destination than you were on
in 2011, 2012.
So what was it for you?
If you've invested the money, the sacrifices you'd
(16:51):
have to make to do your PhD, the
time, how do you reconcile in your mind?
I'm going to put that down and I'm
going to focus on dog training and make
my living and my purpose in that space.
It's a big decision, was it not?
I think that it was for my grandmother.
(17:14):
We'll get your grandmother on the show.
Because like, you know, like very many relatives
are always like worried that, oh, my goodness,
you just finished your PhD.
Are you just like throwing away your career?
And I'm like, what career?
I haven't got the career yet.
(17:34):
And all these concerns.
But for me, actually, it wasn't so much
about getting a PhD, but experiencing living in
the UK, which I which was the thing
that I actually wanted to do.
So the fact that I got the PhD
as a result, it's just like a bonus
(17:55):
for me.
But I really value the time that I
had in the UK.
And I think that I'm using everything that
I got from the UK, like being comfortable
speaking English.
Not worried about making mistakes when I'm presenting
my stuff.
All of these things, they they are still
valuable to me today in my work.
(18:18):
So I don't think that it was that
there isn't that much difference to me.
At least there isn't.
I mean, there's many people that come on
the podcast and say the fact that I
got a PhD was just a bonus.
Pretty nice bonus.
Um, no, I'm thinking as you're talking back
(18:38):
to a phone call, I remember this phone
call and it was roughly around the same
time, probably a little bit earlier, 2007, 2008
or something, my parents calling me up and
I was volunteering at a wildlife rehabilitation place,
breeding endangered wallabies in Australia.
And they're like, express similar concerns.
(19:01):
I think it's like kind of unites all
the parents and grandparents in the world.
Yeah, concerns.
And I was also thinking as I watched
my two children play relentlessly with their Duplo
Lego at the moment, oh, maybe there's some
little maritime engineers in my house.
(19:21):
You never know.
You never know.
So what was it then for you?
You got your second dog.
What issues did your second dog have?
She had hypermobility in her joints, which means
that her joints were moving a bit too
much, more than they should.
And it first started with torn cruciate ligaments
(19:45):
in both knees.
And she was less than one year old
when that happened.
So she was like, she was a puppy
when she already got the torn cruciate ligaments.
And then she got the diagnosis that most
of her joints were allowing too big range
(20:06):
of motion.
And back then, the orthopedist basically told me
that she would have so many injuries that
at the end, you will have to just
decide to let her go because of all
the injuries that she's getting.
And I would say that my big triumph
was that she passed away last summer, not
(20:29):
due to the orthopedic condition, but it was
a different reason.
But she didn't have a single injury in
10 years of her life after these cruciate
ligament tears.
And I'm very proud of that, of what
we achieved with fitness training.
You should be really proud of that.
(20:50):
What's the lesson there?
What did you do when you were told
that by your orthopedist?
I started looking for solutions.
And I can't remember how I discovered that
fitness training might be the thing.
Because back then, there was no canine fitness
training in Estonia whatsoever.
(21:11):
And I wasn't in an infosphere where I
would learn about it.
So I can't remember how did I discover
that maybe I should look for fitness training.
But somehow I did.
And when I started googling, so how can
I find some online programs, then I found
(21:33):
the programs at Fancy Dog Sports Academy.
And that's how my journey at the Fancy
Dog Sports Academy started, because I'm still an
active student in there.
I'm regularly taking their classes and I'm a
big fan.
So you weren't like, I don't accept that,
my dog's not going to have injuries.
You were more like, how can I minimize
(21:54):
the injuries this dog's going to have?
Yeah, how can I make sure that she
can live a quality life?
And how do you...
I guess I did want to avoid injuries,
but like, just to make sure that I'm
doing the best I can to make sure
that she wouldn't have all these injuries.
(22:15):
And I don't know much about hypermobility.
So is this a genetic condition?
What is it something to do with experiences
during puppyhood?
It's most likely genetic.
So it's not necessarily caused by the environment
or how the puppy is raised.
(22:36):
But to be honest, I do have very
conflicting information on that and I haven't researched
it in a while.
So I'm not sure if my information is
very up to date.
And were these torn ligaments at such an
early age, did they impact your dog's resilience,
(22:58):
your dog's confidence?
Did they have an impact?
Yes, she was an insecure dog.
And because she was lame most of her
puppyhood, then we couldn't really like go to
places or do things together.
And back then I was also, I was
actually like a novice dog person.
So I didn't know that much or that
well about things back then.
(23:18):
But as I became more aware of how
to train, how to use positive reinforcement, how
to do it well.
Then I would say that at the end
of her life, she was like a happy,
normal dog who was quite confident in most
of her daily situations and things that she
(23:40):
would encounter.
And random question, but your engineering background and
thinking about how things work and how things
are put together.
Does that give you like, when you think
about hypermobility and how dogs put together, does
your engineering background and brain kind of click?
(24:03):
It helped a lot.
Right now, I don't feel it anymore that
much.
But when I was just getting started, then
having engineering background helped me a lot to
understand how bodies work, where biggest stresses will
be.
And all of these things and how strengthening
(24:24):
the muscles around the joints will help the
dog and all these things.
So I remember that my brain went constantly
like doing these parallel lines that we're learning
about anatomy and fitness training.
And then going back to, oh, but this
links to this engineering principle, basically.
(24:44):
Because most of the engineering stuff also comes
from nature, really.
Yeah, I guess nature and anatomical features and
design of bodies from long, long time, long
periods of evolution are some of the biggest
marvels of engineering on the planet.
(25:05):
Probably, I would say so, yeah.
When you say a lot of engineering comes
from nature, what do you mean?
Wings, for example.
Wings, yeah.
Plane wings.
I remember when I was in the university,
then I was really into this thing and
(25:26):
reading different books of engineering marvels of the
nature.
So, for example, tree branches, that they have
this optimum curve when they are joining the
tree trunk so that they wouldn't break and
to make sure that stress concentrations wouldn't get
(25:52):
too high and so on.
These similar solutions now used in human-made
engineering, they follow similar principles.
As you were talking, it made me think
about gratitude.
I try to be grateful every day for
little things like my fingers, which I'm now
(26:13):
using to navigate my mouse.
Because these are the things we don't think
about.
And I've never thought about the angle of
a tree branch before.
And so that's something I'm going to be
grateful for today because the leaves go on
the trees and we need the leaves to
do their work so that we can live
on this planet.
Thank you, evolution and perfectly angled tree branches.
(26:39):
So what was it about fitness?
You went to Fensi Dog Sports.
When you say certified fitness trainer, I don't
even know enough about what that is.
Can you explain your journey?
It's basically a certificate that tells me that
I have passed, I think it was an
(27:00):
eight month long course together with the written
and practical exam.
So it's a certificate.
To show that I passed the course and
I'm certified to do canine fitness training and
(27:22):
offer services in that area.
So what is involved in having a fit
canine?
Because I'm assuming that that would cover starting
young.
What can we do for puppies?
What can we do for adolescence dogs?
What can we do for adults?
So how does it all?
Yes, so also now I've actually moved away
(27:44):
a little bit from the traditional canine fitness
training that I originally learned.
And I know that the principles in there
are also constantly evolving.
So you always discover a little bit more.
More information becomes available and then it's like
you know things that maybe weren't true five
(28:05):
or six years ago that we didn't know
about.
But the most common approach, I guess, is
strengthening workouts to make sure that the muscles
are supporting the joints, that they're supporting the
back.
And helping the canine athlete to use his
(28:29):
body in the best possible and most efficient
way.
And make sure that all the so-called
weak spots are supported so that when they
do put repetitive loads on the body, for
example, jumping in agility, which is quite repetitive
behavior, you have quite many jumps.
(28:50):
That the body is then capable of dealing
with distresses in the body and make sure
that they don't become overload injuries.
So having a fit canine or being involved
in canine fitness training, it's actually quite a
lot of work, to be honest.
It's like having a proper training routine for
(29:11):
the dog and regularly doing the exercises with
the dog.
And what's your thinking now about canine fitness?
Are you thinking about what you provide your
movement puzzles and the work that you do?
Are you wanting to help people who have
(29:36):
dogs who are doing repetitive behaviors, putting repetitive
loads on the body in terms of sport?
Or are you like dogs in general, your
dog sitting at home by your feet, your
pet dogs, they're not fit enough.
We need to make dogs more fit.
Where do you see, what's your kind of
drive and your passion and who you want
(29:57):
to help?
So when I first started with movement puzzles,
then it was mainly focused on working and
sport dogs.
Mostly because I saw with my own young
dog that he was, although he had been
doing fitness training for most of his life,
then he was struggling with specific situations like
(30:19):
tight left turns.
In sports activities or with him, we were
also involved in search and rescue training.
And there were some specific situations where I
saw that you would say that maybe that
he wasn't comfortable or confident enough in these
situations.
But for me, because I have the fitness
(30:40):
training background, for me, everything, basically every problem
links back to fitness training.
And does my dog actually have the physical
skills to do that exercise?
So for my dog, because the situations that
he was struggling with, these situations always involved
movement.
(31:01):
So they weren't like stationary positions or being
strong in specific situations or having enough power.
It was more about him struggling to coordinate
his movements while actually like in motion and
running.
Because in most work or sport situations, the
(31:23):
dogs are running and they then have to
coordinate their bodies while in motion.
And I developed movement puzzles for that purpose,
because movement puzzles, essentially, they are a pattern
exercise where the dog moves from one pole
to another.
He does it independently from the human without
any handler cues.
(31:44):
And also the dog does it on his
own initiative.
So it's not lured or forced somehow or
by taking away the dog's choice by limiting,
like creating a channel, for example.
That's not something that we do.
And I used this two-ball game pattern
that I learned from Milen Lohler at Fancy
(32:06):
Dog Sports Academy.
And I started creating these manufactured setups that
imitated what my dog was struggling with in
sport and work situations.
So I created these setups where he would
have to focus on his precise paw placement.
(32:29):
And thanks to him knowing how to move
from one pole to another, I could easily
add in movement to these exercises.
So he was essentially practicing how to coordinate
his movements while in motion.
And basically all of his problems at work
and in sport exercises disappeared.
(32:50):
And I started my first movement puzzles course
in English.
But the students started reporting back to me
that, oh, by the way, we started with
movement puzzle training.
And now I'm noticing all these other changes
in my dog, like lower reactivity, feeling more
(33:11):
confident.
Dogs were becoming more focused during training sessions,
less impulsive, making better choices while moving.
And by now, I would say that movement
puzzles, we do use it for fitness training
purposes as well, for working and sport dogs.
(33:31):
But it has actually become a confidence boosting
training tool, mostly.
So for me, confidence boosting is very closely
linked to fitness training, so I would never
separate them.
But I am very passionate about helping dogs
(33:53):
feel good in their bodies, feel confident.
And for me, this means that they are
also confident interacting with the world and exploring
more and having fun.
Just the other day, Mari, because we've got
two kids at home.
I was mentioned, I think, already in the
show, one's one year old, one's five.
(34:13):
So my ability to fit fitness into my
life is a challenge.
But last Friday, I went out and brought
a walking pad.
I don't know if you have those in
the studio.
I think they're relatively new in New Zealand.
But it's like a treadmill that goes under
your desk without arms, so you can walk
(34:34):
and work at the same time.
I'm going to try it out for the
first time today.
But I know what that, I'm very motivated
because I know that when I get fitter,
I feel that confidence.
I remember back to one of the fittest
times of my life.
(34:56):
So one of the long stretches of gym
attendance that I've managed back pre-kids, pre
-wife.
Lots of time as I stare into the
distance with great recollection of what that was
like.
And I remember just, I was working in
(35:17):
a zoo at the time.
And there's just one memory and I don't,
it's quite interesting to me how that sticks
out so prominently in my mind.
Of just climbing the steps and just doing
so with an ease that I was like,
that was noticeable.
Climbing steps isn't hard.
(35:38):
I've never found hard climbing steps, but it
was just like, I kind of floated up
these steps.
And I was like, wow, like that is
the impact of this fitness and how that
made me feel.
And I can only imagine, because that's what
we can do, that a dog would, or
any species, would experience something that shares similarities
(36:00):
with that.
What we are seeing with my students' dogs,
then I think that dogs experience something similar.
Because when people start with these exercises, they
very quickly start saying that they are actually
seeing their dog moving with a lot more
confidence.
(36:20):
From their body courage, tail courage, head held
high, not like being shy or cautious about
things.
And they say that they very quickly see
it in other situations as well, not just
when doing these exercises.
But in other training scenarios.
And I have just like a similar story
(36:42):
to yours.
I think it was last spring when I
was just doing some gardening stuff and I
wanted to go and get a tool.
But there was a small brick wall in
front of me.
And previously I would have walked around the
wall.
But because I had been doing some parkour
(37:02):
style training recently.
Then I was just like, I didn't even
think about it, I just climbed straight over
the wall.
Because I was just like, for me it
was the most obvious path to take and
I knew that I can easily do it.
But without that parkour style training, I would
have walked around the wall.
Because in my mind, even without thinking about
(37:24):
it, I would have decided that this isn't
for me.
And with our students' dogs, it also scares
me actually how many of them tell me
that when they start with these exercises.
They notice that their dogs start doing mischievous
things.
In the sense that previously they thought that
(37:46):
their dog was just being super well behaved
and polite.
By not doing certain things like getting on
the furniture.
But it came out that the dogs just
didn't know that it was physically an option
for them.
That they were capable of doing it.
And after doing this movement puzzle style training,
they start doing this.
(38:08):
What you might label mischievous, but it's actually
just a dog discovering that.
Oh my goodness, I can actually do this
and it's easy and I have the skills.
And while some of the things are maybe
something that you don't want actually your dog
to do.
Then obviously I would assume that we also
have the skills to then teach our dogs
(38:29):
not to do them in certain situations.
But it also makes me just wonder how
limited our dogs may be sometimes.
Because they just don't believe that things are
physically an option.
And it may be just like with me
with a wall that they don't even think
(38:50):
about certain things being an option for them.
And once they discover that, oh my goodness,
I can actually balance on high surfaces above
from the ground.
Oh my goodness, the world is my oyster.
I can go on exploring now.
Yeah, it opens up lots more opportunities for
(39:10):
access to reinforcement I can imagine.
Yeah, exactly.
And also like exploring and developing new skills
just through exploring and discovering things in the
nature more.
Because these same dogs, they also tend to
be very limited in their choices when they
go for walks.
That maybe they just walk on a path
(39:32):
or maybe just like behind you.
So they don't really go exploring, which means
that they won't get like full benefits of
nature exploration either.
And just something else that struck me from
what you're doing.
And I know that during this episode, you
mentioned, oh, you know, it's not that long
(39:54):
ago.
I got my dog not that long ago.
But I don't want to minimize what you've
managed to do in that time.
Oh no, I think it's pretty amazing that
it's like such a short time.
Yeah, OK, good, good.
I think sometimes it's obviously you can't see
your work from anyone's perspective and experience, but
(40:17):
your own.
But one thing that I just wanted to
hear in your words, how it was for
you putting together a training exercise that helps
your individual dog.
Great, cool.
Like I can go, OK, cool, I've got
this problem, came up with a solution.
(40:40):
So many reinforcers in there.
I think if it was me doing that,
one, just the creative process of coming up
with a solution.
I find that incredibly reinforcing.
Two, like setting it up and being like,
OK, cool, now this idea is out of
my head and it's got like some tangible
reality to it.
Three, implementing it, probably failing, I imagine, for
(41:04):
a while and figuring out what doesn't work.
And then persisting with determination through that to
get something that's actually helping your dog and
got tangible results.
And then being able to share that with
other people and help them get results through.
(41:24):
So they're basically getting the fruits of your
labor and you can nourish them.
I mean, that must be incredibly reinforcing.
And I just wanted to acknowledge that firstly
and ask you, you know, what was it
like when you realized like this thing I've
done just to help my own dog out
(41:45):
now is helping dogs all over the world?
That wasn't that straightforward, to be honest.
Because when I first started teaching movement puzzles,
then I actually stopped teaching it for a
while.
So I think that I released the first
(42:06):
course in 2020 and that was it.
It was just the first course.
And for me, it didn't really click.
I wasn't a fan.
And later I realized it was because back
then I just, for me, somehow it didn't
click as a fitness training tool.
(42:28):
Because like there are so many different elements
in fitness training.
And I somehow felt like maybe I was
minimizing the traditional canine fitness training and the
need for it.
And I didn't want to do it because
it's super important.
To do that as well.
And I still get questions from people asking
(42:50):
like, oh, then I can just skip doing
my stationary fitness exercises.
And I'm like, no, you shouldn't stop doing
them.
It doesn't replace them.
It's a different tool that you use for
different purposes.
And for me, it became important when I
(43:11):
understood that we can help dogs on so
many different levels.
That it wasn't just for working and sport
dogs.
But now we have very many dogs who
are struggling with behavioral challenges, who can't go
on walks, for example.
So many behaviors are using movement puzzles to
(43:32):
help these clients to make sure that their
dogs are still getting some movement focused exercises.
And they can do it indoors.
If they can't go outside.
And we have a lot of timid dogs
who are very cautious of exploring, who are
scared of everything new in their environment.
And they are becoming a lot more confident
(43:53):
with movement puzzles.
And I find it very rewarding helping dogs
and their humans on that level.
And that's actually why I also enjoy this
work or profession a lot more than I
enjoyed engineering.
(44:14):
Because I did work as an engineer.
But as an engineer, you work with big
industries and big businesses.
You don't see you making any impact in
individuals' lives, to be honest.
But in this area, working with dogs and
their humans, you can actually see how things
(44:38):
are making a difference for other humans and
dogs.
Because for me, it's also important to make
sure that the human part of the team
is also happier or gets a solution to
something that they have been struggling with.
So I'm not sure if I answered your
(44:58):
question here, to be honest.
I think I got carried away a little
bit.
Perfect.
My mission is done then.
Getting our guests carried away is what I'm
aiming for.
I guess you're a maritime engineer.
You don't have the captain of a ship
ringing you up and saying, Hey, Mari, that
angle that was perfectly rounded, just like a
(45:19):
tree branch.
I'm just so grateful that you designed my
ship and we're all safe.
I guess you wouldn't get that kind of...
No one thinks about that kind of stuff,
do they?
You did answer the question because I think
you gave a very human answer to the
question.
And so much as you have an idea,
I mean, you had a study of one
at one point, right?
(45:40):
You had your dog and you had your
puzzles and you had the context in which
you applied that.
Part of that context being you didn't abandon
these fitness foundational components of what you managed
to achieve with your dog.
(46:02):
And so putting that out there, this is
what I was thinking when you were saying
that.
And this is what I mean by that
very human side of things is you're vulnerable.
There's a vulnerability that comes with this.
Thou has shifted from internal, from private to
external into a space where others might judge
(46:24):
me or criticize me or I might not
communicate things properly.
They use this opportunity a lot.
Did they?
Did you face that?
What did that look like for you?
Did it look like private messages?
Mostly I get what it looks like is
people claiming me of stealing other people's work.
(46:48):
And I'm like, I only discovered that other
person's work after I had done or put
my movement buses out into the world.
And people started telling me that I'm stealing
someone's work.
Then I was like, oh, I should look
up what this other person is doing.
So, yeah, like you do get that.
Not everyone loves you, but it's like if
(47:11):
you don't annoy someone, then you're playing it
too small.
Yeah.
And that's not about you.
Exactly.
I mean, that's about so many other things
other than you.
You is the last thing that that's about.
Also, I understand that there are some cases
(47:32):
in history when someone's work has been actually
stolen and monetized by others.
So I understand that people are concerned about
it.
Yeah.
And I guess the issue there isn't that
people aren't concerned about things that warrant concern
(47:54):
or haven't got constructive feedback about your work,
my work, anyone's work.
That's not the issue that I think is
welcomed and encouraged.
It's not that that is a thing.
I think it's how that is delivered and
what the motivations and intent approach can be.
(48:19):
Because I think also in your work or
my work or anyone's work, there's a cliche
saying, is any of it really our work?
It all came from somewhere.
And secondly, it's made me think about conversion
evolution.
You can have, for example, vultures, two different
(48:40):
groups of vultures that evolved in completely different
parts of the world in isolation, but look
anatomically similar and have adaptations for the same
purpose.
Yeah, exactly.
So one vulture didn't go, oh, do you
know what the vultures in Asia are doing?
Let's steal their idea.
(49:00):
Let's lose all of our feathers from our
head so that we can remain healthy when
we stick them in carcasses.
So one thing we're getting close to the
end of this episode and to the listeners
of the show, God, I have failed at
mentioning this earlier.
We are going to talk about movement puzzles
in part two of my conversation with Mari.
So we're going to dive deep into that.
(49:23):
But before we finish up, I'm just curious
about Estonia.
So you were in the UK doing a
PhD.
You obviously have moved home.
Estonia is home now.
Yes, it is.
I'm living in Estonia.
So back when I was reading Suzanne Glothier's
(49:43):
and Patricia McConnell's books, then I was preparing
for my move back to Estonia.
So my plan was to move to Estonia
and get a dog.
What a brilliant plan.
It's just such a different part of the
world to New Zealand.
I mean, I know that the geopolitical situation
at the moment, that's quite an ex-Soviet
(50:04):
Union country and you've got probably a lot
of societal...
It's not overly comfortable.
And really sorry for everything that's going on
in that space and how that, I'm sure,
adds stress not only to the society, but
to the individual as well.
And worries that we just, in other parts
of the world, don't have to contend with.
(50:26):
But in terms of positive reinforcement dog training,
and I can imagine for you, as it
is for me, because New Zealand is not
like, you know, there's probably more people.
How many people are in Estonia?
Let's compare our countries quickly.
I may be mistaken with the exact number,
(50:46):
but I think it's 1.3 million.
Oh, you're tiny then compared to us.
I was about to say New Zealand is
so small, about 5 million people.
But you're right.
You're huge.
Well, I feel so tiny when you think
about like members of ours and cities like
LA and London, you know, and there's like
four or five times the amount of people
(51:08):
in those cities than there are in our
countries.
So being in New Zealand, though, you know,
there are oceans between me and a lot
of the friends that I've made globally in
the animal training world.
And so community is super important and the
ability to connect with mentors and other people
(51:29):
and share ideas and support each other and
brainstorm problems to solutions.
So obviously you've got that because internet and
stuff.
But you've also got the local Estonia population
and the culture of you acting as an
(51:49):
individual with a joint.
I'm going to frame it as a mission
to us, which is to improve the lives
of dogs and their human learners through ethical
evidence based practices.
But what about Estonia?
Are you connected much to the training community
(52:11):
in your local region or are you more
because for me, like Animal Training Academy is
I'm more connected off to the global community
than necessarily locally.
But what about yourself?
It's the same for me.
And actually, like before I started teaching classes
in English, I did have canine fitness training
(52:37):
practice here in Estonia.
I started, I think it was in 2017.
It was in-person canine fitness classes and
I did it full time for three years.
So that's when COVID came in 2020 and
I had to shut down.
And so I know what it's like to
(52:59):
build a business in a very small country
to a very small audience.
Because that's the truth that if you are
living in a country that doesn't have a
very big population, then that also limits your
audience size as well.
(53:20):
But obviously, like when COVID came and I
was forced to close my business, then I
wouldn't just sit around and wait.
I was just like, all right, now it's
time to start an English business, online business.
So that's what I did.
But here in Estonia, I do have some
(53:42):
very good friends who are also who you
might call positive reinforcement and force-free trainers
and evidence-based trainers.
I do collaborate with quite a few of
them.
They offer their consultations through my online platform
in English.
So they are also expanding to the English
(54:04):
speaking audience.
But to be honest, in general, I would
say that the force-free and evidence-based
training community is small in Estonia.
There are definitely people who are seeking for
their support and services, but I have a
feeling that that's very much a minority of
(54:28):
dog guardians who seek that kind of support
at this stage.
Unfortunately, and also for movement puzzles, I don't
have a big audience in Estonia.
We have a couple of students from Estonia,
but not that many.
I'm very happy that we do have these
(54:48):
couple of students.
I'm always very excited to see an Estonian
name in my audience among my students.
So thank you if you are listening.
And is dog guardianship, dog ownership, do many
people have dogs in Estonia?
Yes, I would say so.
(55:09):
Many people have dogs, but you don't often
see dogs when you're moving around.
We don't have street dogs.
In that sense, you don't see dogs, but
also it's not that common or that welcome
to go with a dog to different places.
So I would say that there are quite
(55:31):
many dogs and people have dogs, but you
don't see them that often.
Are you talking about just taking your dog
to the shop or cafe or something, or
are you talking about walking your dog?
Even walking.
Obviously, there are rush hours when you have
a dog, then you know when to go
walking and you will see lots of dogs.
(55:52):
But in general, you don't see that many
dogs around.
That was actually something that my current dog's
breeder brought out.
She's from Austria and she mentioned that when
she traveled through Estonia, then it was amazing.
She didn't see any dogs and it didn't
look like dogs were very welcome.
(56:13):
For example, you can't even go on a
beach with a dog, even when it's not
a seasonal beach time.
I hadn't thought about it, but she's right
that you don't really see dogs that often.
I have more questions, but I think in
the interest of time, we will end towards
(56:36):
wrapping up here.
Firstly, thank you for sharing some of your
behaviour odyssey with us today.
We really enjoy learning about different people and
where they're from and what their journeys have
been like.
I really appreciate that.
I was hoping you could just share with
everyone before we wrap up part one where
they can go online to find out more
(56:59):
about you, movement patterns and get in touch.
The website or the formal website is themovingcanine
.com.
You will find our free training videos in
there.
We have a two-ball game free training
series that you can sign up for and
(57:20):
you can find more information about me and
what we offer on the website.
You can also find me on Facebook and
on Instagram.
On Facebook, it's Mari Valgma, the moving canine
and Instagram is the.moving.canine or spelled
out.
That's how you can find me.
(57:40):
Amazing.
It's only in English, no Estonian, unfortunately, except
for one word, the marker word that I
use during training sessions.
It's tubli.
In Estonian, it means well done, like good
boy, basically.
Now people and my students are using it
(58:00):
all over the world, so tubli.
Love it.
We will link to all of it in
the show notes as well.
So thank you so much.
Our first ever marine engineer from Estonia for
being on our podcast.
Thank you very much, Dr. Valgma.
We really appreciate your time and coming to
(58:21):
hang out with us at Animal Training Academy
and looking forward to diving into movement puzzles
in part two.
Thank you so much for having me.
I really enjoyed our chat and I look
forward to part two.
And thank you so much for listening as
well.
This is your host, Ryan Cartlidge, signing off
(58:43):
from this episode of the Animal Training Academy
podcast show.
We hope today's conversation inspired you and equipped
you with new tools for your trainer's toolbox.
Remember, every challenge in training is an opportunity
to learn and sharpen your animal training geekery.
(59:04):
Embrace the rough patches, learn from them and
keep improving.
And don't forget, the path to growing your
skills and expanding your knowledge continues beyond this
episode.
Visit www.atamember.com to join our supportive
(59:24):
membership where you will find a community of
trainers just like you.
Together, we're making a huge positive difference in
the lives of animal and human learners worldwide.
Until next time, keep honing your skills, stay
awesome and remember every interaction with an animal
(59:46):
or human learner is your opportunity to create
ripples.
We're here cheering you on every step of
the way.
See you at the next episode.
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