September 8, 2025 • 65 mins
In the second half of this enlightening conversation, we’re once again joined by Dr. Mari Valgma—Certified Professional Canine Fitness Trainer, creator of Movement Puzzles, and founder of The Moving Canine.
After hearing Mari’s remarkable journey in part one, we now dive deep into the work that has touched thousands of dogs and their humans worldwide. Mari unpacks the origins and applications of Movement Puzzles, sharing how a simple idea has blossomed into a global community dedicated to canine fitness, confidence, and joy.
Together, we explore:
✅ The philosophy and structure behind Movement Puzzles
✅ How fitness training builds resilience and problem-solving skills in dogs
✅ Real-world examples of dogs gaining confidence and coordination through movement
✅ The evolution of Mari’s international community and its unexpected growth
✅ How trainers and guardians alike can use movement to enrich everyday life
Mari’s approach shows us that when we reframe fitness as play, exploration, and empowerment, we unlock not only healthier bodies but also stronger, more confident minds. This conversation will leave you inspired to think about movement as both a foundation and a gift for the dogs in your care.
Links
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Website: www.themovingcanine.com
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Free two-ball game training series: available via the website
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Facebook: Mari Valgma – The Moving Canine
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Instagram: @the.moving.canine
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
Welcome to the Animal Training Academy podcast show.
I'm your host, Ryan Carlage, and I'm passionate
about helping you master your animal training skills
using the most positive and least intrusive approaches.
Here at ATA, we understand that navigating the
vast challenges you encounter in training requires a
(00:27):
comprehensive base of knowledge and experience.
It's common to face obstacles and rough patches
on your journey that can leave you feeling
overwhelmed and stressed.
Therefore, since 2015, we've been on a mission
to empower animal training geeks worldwide.
We've aided thousands in developing their skills, expanding
(00:51):
their knowledge, boosting their confidence, and maximizing their
positive impact on all the animal and human
learners they work with.
We are excited to do the same for
you.
Simply visit www.atamember.com, join our vibrant
(01:12):
community, and geek out with us.
And of course, in the meantime, enjoy this
free podcast episode as we explore new ways
to help you supercharge your training skills, grow
your knowledge, and build your confidence so that
you can craft a life that positively impacts
(01:32):
every learner you encounter.
We'll start today's episode where I'm thrilled to
welcome back to the show for part two
of my conversation, the awesome Mari Volgma.
And if you haven't listened to the first
part of our conversation, you can find it
as the previous episode on whatever app you're
(01:55):
listening to the show on.
In that episode, we explored Mari's journey in
getting started with positive reinforcement training, what led
her to developing movement puzzles, which we're going
to unpack more in this episode today.
It's definitely worth a listen.
However, if you haven't listened to it yet,
no worries.
You are, of course, welcome to start here
with part two, where you're still going to
(02:16):
gain plenty of insights to help you grow
your skills, knowledge, and confidence in your training.
So let's dive straight in.
Mari, thanks so much for taking the time
to come and hang out with us again
at Animal Training Academy.
It's so wonderful to have you here for
part two.
Welcome back.
Thank you so much for having me here.
I'm very excited to be here and talk
more about movement puzzles.
(02:38):
Yeah, we're going to go deep on movement
puzzles today.
We covered them a little bit in part
one, but maybe we can just give the
listeners a little bit of a recap about
what movement puzzles are, why you came up
with them, and a couple of benefits, and
then we'll dive in.
(02:59):
Okay, so movement puzzles are, at their core,
pattern movement exercises where the dog moves between
one bowl to another.
So going from one bowl to the other
bowl, and then back to the first bowl.
Gradually, we add different exercises for the dog
(03:23):
to do between the two bowls.
In movement puzzles, the exercises that we add
between the bowls are generally exercises that are
targeting coordination, body awareness, perception skills for our
dogs, so that they would learn how to
(03:44):
control their movements, control their body while actually
in motion, and also develop coordination while moving.
And the dog does the exercises independently, so
we are not giving them handler cues, because
in most situations, our cues actually can be
distracting for the dog.
(04:05):
So here we want to split it up
and make sure that the dog can focus
on developing their own coordination and feeling how
their movement essentially feels like to them without
getting distracted by handler cues or thinking about
what the exercise criteria might be.
(04:26):
And the reason why I started with movement
puzzles was basically when I saw that my
dog had been doing quite stationary and foundation
fitness exercises for most of his life, but
he was struggling in certain situations where he
had to run and coordinate his movements or
(04:49):
balance in trickier situations.
So I was trying to figure out how
can I help him develop these skills separately
from the sports exercises, because in sports exercises
I would want my dog to focus on
understanding the criteria and doing the exercise basically
(05:09):
correctly based on the sports exercise criteria.
So I wanted to make sure that my
dog would know how to actually use his
body for these exercises before we actually started
doing them.
And that's how movement puzzles started.
The very first movement puzzle exercises were some
very basic setups.
(05:31):
For example, the dog moving around the cone
and there being poles placed on the ground
behind the cone so that the dog would
focus on the paw placement while in motion
during a turn.
But gradually, these exercises have grown a lot
bigger, so we can actually do a sequence
of different exercises between two poles and the
(05:53):
dog knows they basically what we do is
that we link each prop that we use
because we do use quite a lot of
props to help dogs develop coordination and balance
skills.
So the dog understands what each prop means
or what behavior is linked to it.
Is it like I should move underneath this
(06:13):
prop?
I should move around this prop?
I should move over this prop, for example.
So they see one prop, they do the
exercise instantly.
They see the next prop, they do the
exercise because it becomes quite an automatic reaction
for them at this stage.
So we can build longer sequences of these
exercises.
(06:34):
But the basic foundation is still the dog
moving from one pole to another and then
returning back to the first pole and repeating
that pattern.
And you mentioned fitness in there.
Yes.
But we talked about this in part one,
but before we get going, kind of paint
the outcome for the listener of the show
(06:57):
of engaging in movement puzzles.
So we obviously get a dog who's moving
through all of these obstacles, but who does
this dog become?
What do they build?
Confidence?
Resilience?
What are some of the main benefits you're
saying?
They build confidence in using their own bodies
in all kinds of situations.
(07:19):
And generally, I don't want to say that
we are going to build like scary setups
for the dog, but the setups that the
movement puzzles or advanced movement puzzles often become
are something that the dogs probably naturally wouldn't
choose if they first saw the setup.
So for example, we have a setup of
(07:41):
a noisy curtain.
So that's basically things that touch the dog's
body and make noise.
It was inspired by search and rescue training
with my own dog, where dogs have to
work in like in rubble searches.
They have to be able to move through
stuff that makes noise, touches their bodies.
And I wanted to make sure that my
(08:02):
dog is comfortable with it before he entered
the rubble area.
And now it has become a confidence-boosting
exercise for very many dogs.
But it's not something that many dogs would
choose naturally, that you set up a curtain
of stuff that makes noise, and the dogs
are just like, no, I'm not going to
(08:23):
do that.
But we build the setup so gradually and
so step by step that the dogs are
constantly thinking, yes, I'm in.
I want to do this.
This is fun.
And before you notice, you've managed to do
the whole noisy curtain thing and your dog
thinks that it's super fun and the coolest
exercise ever.
(08:44):
So basically, we are building the dog's trust
in their own bodies and their ability, them
knowing that whatever setup they may face, they're
like, yes, I can totally do this.
I'm happy with it.
I'm confident.
It's fine.
I don't mind things touching my body.
I don't mind things making noise around me.
(09:04):
I can just do the exercise.
I just had a thought as you were
saying that I don't mind things touching my
body, like that would bleed into, I would
guess, and you tell me, things like cooperative
care handling, because suddenly now the dog's comfortable
with things touching their hind legs and their
feet and various parts of their body.
(09:25):
And also dogs will feel a lot more
comfortable in their surroundings.
For example, in the living room where there
may be tight areas, for example, between the
coffee table and the sofa.
And if the dog happens to be cautious
of tight areas and things going against their
body, then this kind of exercises will make
the dog feel a lot more at ease
(09:47):
in these situations and also expand their world,
essentially, when they discover that, oh, actually, I'm
perfectly fine doing these exercises.
And part of the, or not just exercises,
I'm perfectly fine in these situations in general,
because these skills generalize pretty well.
(10:08):
And essentially, while I don't really talk that
much about Movement Puzzles as a fitness training
tool, we are more focused on Movement Puzzles
as a confidence boosting tool, because essentially what
we are helping dogs and humans achieve is
(10:29):
dogs feeling confident and happy in their bodies
and happy navigating the world, sport situations, whatever
they may face.
But one of the reasons why they work
and help the dogs feel more confident is
that they build these fitness skills, coordination, body
awareness.
(10:49):
So, for example, the same curtain of things
that touches the dog's body, then this is
super valuable, like touch sensory feedback for the
dog of how big their body is, actually,
where their back is.
They may not get this information from other
exercises.
For example, if we do paw target exercises,
then they understand where their paws are, but
(11:11):
not necessarily where their back is.
So, we can use these kind of setups
to help to improve body awareness and thus
also confidence.
And the dogs just knowing how big their
bodies are.
So, would you say build an appropriate perception?
Yes.
The sixth sense, I think it's called another
(11:34):
sense.
That's when little kids see ghosts, Mari.
That's what the sixth sense is.
I don't know if you've what I'm imagining
is a PVC structure with some chains and
some kitchen utensils or some random things hanging
down that the dog has to push through.
(11:54):
They feel different.
They sound different.
But for those, tell me if you're imagining
something completely different than what you set up.
And also paint a picture for the audience
in terms of what you mean when you
say curtain of things.
Oh, it's basically, it is whatever you imagine
it to be, as long as it's safe
for the dog and the dog wouldn't get
(12:15):
tangled in the stuff.
So, we don't really use anything that has
strings or things that get tangled around the
head or paws or tail.
My curtain of things is like industrial thread
spools hanging on threads.
Some people use pool noodles and mixed with
(12:38):
plastic bottles, for example, and things like that.
There are also people who have used like
plastic Easter egg like things.
So, they are like on a thread and
in a kind of a chain of them.
So, these things put together.
Obviously, we don't start with noisy things if
(12:58):
the dog happens to be noise sensitive.
So, with these dogs, we would start with
something that didn't make any sound, just like
touching the body.
And for them, we would add the noisy
parts very gradually and not that close to
the body first.
So, it is adjustable to the dog as
(13:18):
well.
But basically, the curtain of stuff is like,
as the description says, curtain of stuff.
And what are you using as your structure
to hang things?
Mine are agility jumps.
So, the curtain is basically hanging on a
pole and I use jump wings.
(13:38):
But most people create some PVC tube structure
or, for example, you can put chairs to
hold it up.
Yeah, makes sense.
But also, just a word of caution that
I do recommend people not to start with
this exercise.
Yeah, that also makes sense.
Because it sounds fun and it's super beneficial.
(14:00):
And people often want to start with it,
but it's an advanced exercise.
So, it does require quite a few prerequisite
skills first.
So, don't start with it, please.
Yeah, cool.
I hope to, maybe not right now, but
soon talk about the difference between beginner skills
and more advanced skills.
But let's go right back.
(14:20):
You mentioned the two bowl game.
Can you talk about, just revisit that, talk
about what it is, where it came from,
and why that's important to move in puzzles?
So, I learned it from Milan Lawler at
Fancy Dog Sports Academy.
And I know that there are quite a
few classes in there that teach the two
(14:42):
bowl game.
But it's essentially, it's first taught with the
bowls really close to you or even in
front of you basically next to each other.
And we use a marker word to tell
the dog that in the long run, it
becomes like, well done, you will get the
(15:03):
reward.
But at this stage, you're basically just saying
your marker word and deliver a treat in
one bowl.
Then you say your marker word and deliver
the treat in the other bowl, just for
the dog to see that, oh, there's a
pattern, we are moving from one bowl to
another.
And then you gradually start increasing the distance
between them.
And then you start adding exercises one by
(15:26):
one, so that the dog basically does the
exercise and gets a reinforcement in one bowl,
then returns to the exercise and gets reward
or reinforcement in the other bowl.
And one of the very important elements of
this exercise is that we want to build
(15:48):
that independent return to the exercise, because how
quickly the dog wants to get back to
the exercise tells a lot about their comfort
with exercise.
So we want to pay attention to that.
And if we see any hesitation from the
dog's part, or the dog thinking that, yeah,
(16:11):
this was fun, but I don't feel like
doing it anymore, or whatever they may try
to communicate to us with hesitation, then we
must listen to it and pay attention to
it and respect the dogs basically saying no.
I really love Dr. Susan Friedman's, I think
(16:34):
that she uses it in slightly different context
that respect the no shape the yes.
So that's what we want to do with
movement puzzles as well.
We always want to respect the no and
very often it starts with just like the
dog slightly hesitating before returning to the exercise
or before going towards the other bowl.
Yes, and if you haven't listened to episode
(16:55):
250 of our show, you the fantastic listener,
go back and listen to Dr. Susan Friedman
talk about that concept.
A couple of questions before we go any
deeper, just for the listeners a little bit
of context, like what's the time frame here?
Like how long have you been focused specifically
on movement puzzles?
(17:19):
I started doing them with my own dogs
during COVID.
So that was in 2020.
That's when I started experimenting with them.
I would say that I was doing them
for about a year and then took a
short break because initially it was in my
(17:42):
mind it was a fitness training tool and
I wasn't fully happy with it.
I was like, yeah, but there are like
there are other fitness training tools out there.
So it's like something is missing.
But then I started getting messages from people
who had been doing my first movement puzzles
(18:03):
course and they started saying that, hey, I
started doing movement puzzles and it's the only
thing that I changed in my dog's training
routine.
And I started noticing this, this, this, and
they like reduction in reactivity, dogs becoming less
sensitive to noises, dogs feeling more relaxed at
(18:24):
home, all these like behavioral changes.
And I was like, huh, that's super interesting.
Like, how can it be that we are
doing this like movement puzzles, pattern movement exercises,
focusing on coordination and balance skills, and people
are seeing benefits in all these different areas.
(18:44):
And that's when I actually get them interested
again in movement puzzles in the sense that
then it started clicking for me that, yes,
there is something more to it and it's
worth investigating more and see like, where can
we take this concept and how can we
help our dogs?
(19:05):
Amazing.
And just, just before we go on, just
quickly clarify, I'm calling them movement puzzles, but
we're kind of interchanging between movement puzzles and
movement patterns.
They're the same thing, just for the listener
of the show.
They are the same thing.
Yeah.
The official name is a movement puzzles, but
they like the, it is a pattern exercise
basically.
So that's where the pattern comes from.
(19:26):
Yeah.
And, and for listeners of the show, as
I start to imagine what this could look
like for them and either their dogs or
their clients, I'm assuming that in terms of
a a puzzle, a activity, a program that
you can teach to your clients, the simplicity
(19:48):
of it is, is appealing in terms of
like go from this bowl to this bowl.
I mean, that's just a task that you
can give a client that is super low
hanging fruit in terms of it's hard to
mess that up.
It's pretty easy.
And then is that kind of like an
appeal that you'll found that people have liked
(20:11):
about movement puzzles?
Yes.
And also they like that the dog is
doing it themselves.
Themselves.
Some people would like there to be always
handler cues, but like, but yeah, the movement
puzzles are not for handler cues, basically.
We are trying to remove ourselves, the handlers
(20:32):
as much as possible.
We are there to observe the dog, how
they are interacting with the setup and if
the setup needs to be adjusted based on
what the dog's choices and movement communicates.
So we are there observers, but also people
find the fact that the dog, it basically
(20:53):
looks like DIY obstacle courses, which people find
instantly attractive.
It's like doing, people like to think that
it's like doing agility in your backyard.
Well, it's not exactly agility, but people do
find it super appealing.
And also, for example, people find it similar
(21:13):
to parkour.
But just with the exception that the dog
is doing the exercises independently.
The cue is like my humans here, but
they're not doing anything.
And that's my cue to do things.
Yeah, basically.
But because also like they get the setup
instantly that it's usually there are cones because
(21:36):
we use cones, buckets are similar as like
guides through the course so that the dogs
learn to go around the cones.
And basically, I'm not sure like how familiar
you are with agility, but basically you have
like optimal approach lines to different obstacles.
So in movement puzzles, we try to use
cones to help dogs approach trickier setups or
(22:00):
like exercises where it's important that, for example,
that they turn to the exercise a few
meters earlier, not like the last minute.
So we use cones and like the contextual
cues are pretty strong for the dog, but
it's puzzle time.
Has anyone ever done it with a cat?
Yes, we have cats as well who have
(22:22):
done it.
I haven't seen advanced videos from them, but
I know that people have definitely started very
successfully with cats and horses as well.
Guinea pigs are also doing them.
All right, cat, horse and guinea pig trainers
out there, there's your challenge.
Some advanced movement puzzles.
So I'm imagining a situation with my cat,
(22:44):
Marty, who I am very intermittent with my
training because the listeners of the show, you
won't know this, but Marty and I, this
is the fourth time we've attempted to record
this episode because somebody in my house is
always sick, two young kids under the age
of six and being winter here in New
(23:07):
Zealand, that also means, Marty, that my training
is intermittent.
So I haven't done a training session with
my cat.
I'm like working on this thing with my
cat and it's like real consistent for a
while, but then like it's been about three
weeks since I did a session because I
just haven't been able to fit that in
to my day, which means that, and that's
how my training's looked for years.
(23:28):
And so I get my cat into my
office and we do like a trick behavior
for a trick title.
And I use a lot of lures and
prompts because it's like, just want to do
something quick while I've got an opportunity.
So what I've tried my cat to do
is to sit down and look at me.
All right.
And I posted this in our Facebook community
just to kind of see what ideas people
(23:49):
would come up with.
Like, Hey, I've got this learner who is
cued by me to do nothing.
Well, not nothing.
Sit and look at me.
Is it helpful for that situation?
Because people were like suggesting like 101 things
to do with a box and these kinds
of things that have had lots of interesting
discussions online about the pros and cons of
them.
(24:09):
And I'm just, that example came to my
mind as you were talking, oh, this could
be helpful for Tilo to kind of learn
to independently do things from me.
But then I'm also like, there's still props
and stuff in the environment.
So just got curious.
And also like with these setups, we want
to be very careful with how we set
(24:30):
it up because we want to make sure
that the learner is correct and they get
the reward.
And also that they wouldn't link like a
hundred different behaviors with the same scenario because
otherwise it will be very difficult for them
(24:51):
to do the exercise reliably.
And also there's a difference.
So for example, if the dog is trying
to figure out the exercise criteria, let's say
that you have like three boxes, one after
another, and the dog is supposed to like
step from one box to another, like on
top of the boxes, basically.
(25:11):
So platforms.
So they are basically like a human would
step from one rock to another, basically in
a sequence.
And if your dog is like trying to
figure out the criteria, then yes, they are
working on their coordination at the same time,
like trying to figure out how to use
their body, like, or what is required, how
(25:33):
am I supposed to move my body?
But also there's coordination linked to the fact
where the learner knows exactly what the criteria
is and then tries to, or their nervous
system tries to find out the most efficient
way to do that exercise.
So for example, instead of trying to figure
(25:53):
out, what should I do with these three
boxes?
The learner knows that I should step from
one box to another.
And then the repetitions are there for the
nervous system to figure out like, what's the
most efficient and the best way to do
it?
How will I feel most comfortable?
How can I balance?
(26:14):
Should I start with this foot or the
other foot?
And you soon see that your dog starts
developing different preferences, that while first their choices
may look a little bit like random, soon
you start seeing that they start doing, like,
getting more settled into what they've discovered about
(26:35):
the exercise.
And for those listeners, Mari was, it's evening
in Estonia and Mari was just slowly getting
darker and darker as her coordination progressed.
Thanks for turning on the light.
You know, my five-year-old Mari says
that she thinks she is an amazing scooter
rider and she wants to be a scooter
(26:57):
instructor when she grows up.
And she teaches me and my wife, like
we're really stupid.
She teaches us how to ride scooters, like
how to put our leg up properly and
stuff.
But I remember when she first got the
scooter, we went out and just brought her
and took her home, surprised her.
It was like, hey, look, here's a scooter,
let's go scootering.
And she'd get on this board and she
(27:17):
would like, it's got two wheels at the
front and one at the back.
So depending on where she puts her foot
pressure, the board will turn left or right.
Yeah.
And she'd get on and she'll just crash
into the grass on the side.
And she'd get back up and crash and
crash and crash.
And over an hour, I just saw her
crashing less and less and going straighter and
straighter because the environment, through no thought process,
(27:38):
I imagine she was about three at the
time, was just...
It's like it's the nervous system.
The nervous system.
Yeah.
So the environment's telling her nervous system, put
foot here with this amount of pressure.
So that kind of came to mind and
that process happening.
It was a very cool thing to watch.
I talk about it often, but it comes
(27:59):
to mind like that's kind of what's happening
with the dogs is like, they're not necessarily,
and I'm not saying they're not, because maybe
they are, but like, it's just, there's just
this feedback to their muscles and their foot
and their pressure, like in terms of how
to move through these puzzles.
And I think that what I've encountered a
(28:21):
lot is that people say that they want
to see their dog thinking and they don't
see, like, they are afraid that the movement
puzzles, they lose that.
And they want to see more of that,
like trial and error or the dog trying
to figure out the exercise.
But actually, these exercises are designed to be
(28:43):
so clear to the dog that the dog
doesn't have to think like, oh, what's the
criteria?
What's the criteria?
What am I supposed to do here?
It's supposed to be so clear for the
dog that they know the criteria and that
their nervous system can then start using that
environmental feedback to adjust the body and to
(29:05):
find the best solution for the dog.
And it doesn't mean that we do like
hundreds of repetitions of the same thing.
It's usually like we do very quick training
sessions and not focusing on doing like super
long sessions of the same thing.
But we also, in movement puzzles, we kind
(29:27):
of want to adjust the exercise and change
the setup very frequently to challenge the nervous
system so that it's like after every few
repetitions, when you see that your dog starts
to like settle, like your kid was starting
to like get the grip of the balance,
you start adding like smaller challenges that, for
(29:49):
example, you move the props a little bit
so that it's like slightly different and that
they have to adjust again so that they...
Basically, what we are doing is that we
are not focusing on the learner thinking.
I don't really want to say that we
are not focusing on that because like we
do want our learners to be like thinkers.
(30:11):
But the goal is that the exercise criteria
should be very clear for the learner so
that they can then focus on the nervous
system taking over and adjusting the movements and
applying that feedback that they get from the
environment in the most efficient way.
Because that's what our dogs also need to
do when doing sports.
(30:32):
Their bodies need to be like very adjustable
and make changes very quickly based on the
feedback that they get from the environment.
This is logically actually helping those people achieve
that goal when they want to see their
dogs thinking more.
So I'll throw some logic at you and
(30:53):
you can see where it lands.
But building confidence and confidence coming from dogs'
bodies becoming more skilled, influent at navigating obstacles,
having things touch them, etc.
(31:14):
That is going to then flow into sessions
where the dogs have to think more about
how to access the reinforcement because the piece
of the puzzle about can I do this
has been removed and it's kind of happening
automatically.
So it does achieve that goal.
It's just something like foundations and building blocks
(31:36):
to just build general skills before.
Yes.
And I also think that the fact that
we can't see our learners thinking doesn't mean
that they are not thinking.
Because for me, I often think about when
I think about this that we want to
(31:56):
see our dogs thinking.
The fact is that, for example, in high
school I was very good at maths.
When I had a maths test, I was
just writing.
You wouldn't see me thinking like I'm doing
any of these funny movements like chewing my
pencil or looking into the ceiling.
I was just writing very quickly.
(32:16):
While some people next to me, they were
struggling.
They were like scratching through their numbers and
then looking into a ceiling and then thinking.
And it doesn't mean that I wasn't thinking
when I was doing the maths test.
It was just that for me it was
so logical and it was so clear that
(32:37):
I could just do it, very quickly process
the information and apply it.
And I'm slightly worried that very often when
we say that we want to see our
dogs thinking, if we are accidentally kind of
like take away their logical thinking in that
(32:58):
sense, if that makes sense.
In the sense that we want them to
be like not processing information quickly, but we
want to see them processing information, which may
be the slower path, if it makes sense
what I just said.
Yeah, it makes sense to me.
The word fluency comes to mind.
(33:18):
Is it?
You had a level of fluency there that
others didn't?
Yes, you could say that.
And I think that we can also say
that about dogs.
And what I find super interesting is that
when we teach MoMA and puzzles to our
dogs, we are essentially teaching them concept.
(33:40):
We are teaching them the concept of going
between things that are like close together.
So basically forming a narrow gap, going underneath
things, going over things.
And it always amazes me that when we've
taught the skills this way, basically like concept
of going between things, going over things.
(34:01):
When I start teaching a new exercise to
my dog that requires these same skills, like
going underneath something or going between things, it
takes me usually like less than a minute
for my dog to get it, to understand
it fluently and to actually apply it even
(34:22):
at a distance from me and doing it
independently.
So I'm just thinking that basically the way
that we teach MoMA and puzzles is like
teaching our dogs the logic of doing the
exercises, and then they can just apply it
to any situation that looks familiar to them
from these concepts.
So for the person listening, how does a
(34:44):
person get started?
Grab two bowls?
That sounds like it would be a logical
step.
Can you offer any more in terms of
what equipment you might suggest people get?
How do they manufacture the first steps?
And give some examples of a puzzle for
a beginner dog.
And then just to help us contrast that,
(35:06):
give us some examples of what a puzzle
might look like for an advanced dog, or
cat, or hamster, or horse.
So with a two-bowl game, you basically
started with the bowls quite close together.
It depends very much on the dog how
far apart you put them.
So let's say that you have them on
(35:28):
your sides, essentially, or your width part.
You have treats in both hands, so this
is important.
You use both hands for a reward delivery.
And you start with your dog just like
being in front of you.
You're saying your marker word that you would
later intend to use to mean a treat
(35:51):
will be in the bowl, essentially.
You say your marker word.
Be mindful of your own mechanics, that your
hands are still when you're saying your marker
word.
And then after you've said your marker word,
a slight pause, and then you deliver a
treat in one bowl.
And then as soon as your dog finishes
eating that treat and starts lifting their head,
(36:13):
because that's the first movement that the dog
actually has to do in order to get
to the other bowl, you already say your
marker word and place the treat in the
other bowl.
And this first step, it's, I always like
to say that don't think that your dog
has to go to the other bowl on
their own.
They don't.
(36:33):
The first step is basically you creating a
pattern so that you say the marker word,
you deliver a treat as you promised in
one of the bowls.
Your dog eats the treat, lifts the head,
and you say your marker word and treat
in the other bowl, essentially.
And very quickly, dogs generally catch on.
(36:56):
They understand, this human is like moving in
a pattern.
I get treat from one bowl and then
the treat appears in the other bowl.
So usually you can start delaying your marker
word very quickly because you see your dog
looking towards the other bowl or even leaning
towards the other bowl already.
So you can gradually start delaying your marker
(37:17):
word to basically mark the first steps towards
the other bowl.
And when that happens, you can start moving
the bowl slightly further apart.
And at this stage, I wouldn't move them
further like a comfortable arm's reach because you
need to be comfortable with your own mechanics
(37:38):
as well.
And usually the first exercise that I teach
is moving around a cone or a bucket
or a flowerpot or something similar.
And you place it right in front of
you so that your dog can't move between
you and the flowerpot.
You want the flowerpot or the cone be
(37:59):
between you and your dog, definitely.
So you place it really close to you
and you basically do the same pattern just
with the prop there.
And then you gradually start either moving the
prop slightly further away from you or keep
the prop in its place and then start
moving you and the bowls back a bit
(38:20):
to increase distance because that actually keeping the
prop in place works better for many dogs.
So that's how you get started.
That's a pattern that I think we can
all understand.
And many of us listening, including myself, have
taught go around the cone.
I'm trying to think back to how I
taught it, but I wasn't using bowls like
(38:41):
that.
And I can see where that would have
added clarity, I think, to my teaching process
for my dog.
Can you also now contrast that for the
listener in terms of an advanced puzzle that
your dogs are doing?
Yes.
So one of the last puzzles that I
came up with for our students was what
(39:02):
I call the blocked exit puzzle, which means
that there were like two cardboard boxes and
there were, well, we created a curtain between
the boxes so that the dog, it wouldn't,
or it doesn't look like there's a way
through, essentially, for the dog.
But we teach it gradually.
(39:24):
And also, there are ways to create clarity
with the setup to make sure that the
dog knows that in this setup, I can
push through versus in some other situations where
it's maybe not the smartest thing to push
through.
So you create the setup to make sure
that your dog knows that in this setting,
(39:45):
it's fine to push through and things will
start moving away once you put pressure on
it.
But essentially, the dogs are like pushing through
and there are like multiple curtains in a
row so that they go through one curtain
and it still looks a little bit blocked
and then they push through another one.
(40:06):
So we are big fans of curtains, basically.
I just had this vision to draw some
parallels for the listeners if it's helpful.
But when we go to the swimming pool
and there's a giant inflatable obstacle courses, which
are like, and your child, who's never done
(40:28):
even like a basic floatie, like jumps on
it, gets past the first obstacle and then
there's like the next one immediately.
And they're doing that with no skills of
like stabilizing themselves on an inflatable surface.
Anyway, I hope that was valuable for anyone
listening.
Yeah, I just want to clarify that with
all these setups, like there are prerequisite skills
(40:49):
that we teach first to the dog.
So they never start with this like only
getting rewarded when they push through, basically.
There's no such situation because the dog would
get the reward even if they moved around
the setup.
Like if the dog tells me that, no,
I'm not going to push through this that
you just built me, they still get the
(41:10):
reward.
So the dogs are not losing out on
anything.
But because we've built these skills so gradually,
then dogs actually, even very cautious and sensitive
ones, start wanting to push through these things,
basically.
They're like, yes, I can do this.
This is fun.
Awesome.
And during this whole time, the human, their
(41:33):
role is just silent observers and letting their
dogs figure out until they get to the
behavior that they mark, which is arriving at
the bowl.
Yes.
But basically, it's also that, especially when we
talk about the advanced puzzles, then chances are
that the dog knows the criteria really well.
(41:55):
When they see a setup, they know what
it's about.
And you probably have had quite a bit
of experience of doing these basically dog's choice
based puzzles and doing them in a way
that your dog is successful.
So all of us have these moments where
our dogs do other behaviors.
(42:16):
They start going around the exercise.
They hesitate near the bowl saying that, yeah,
I'm not going through this thing because I
know this.
I have firsthand experience because I create these
exercises.
I often have this that I set up
an exercise to try it out and my
dogs tell me that, yeah, no, let's try
(42:39):
something else.
So your goal as a handler is to
observe your dog's reaction to the setup.
Usually, like at this stage, when you are
at advanced team, then it is your dog
just hesitating slightly or maybe changing their speed
while doing the exercise.
(42:59):
So your goal is to change the setup
or adjust the setup to make sure that
your dog is 100% comfortable.
And if it happens that you accidentally set
it up a little bit too difficult and
your dog tells you that, hey, this is
too hard, you make it easier and then
build it back up in more gradual steps,
(43:20):
always making sure that your dog is happy
doing the exercise.
And so the things you mentioned before we
push record today that you wanted to talk
about was the other reinforcement and you touched
on it there, but not maybe in this
frame, the other aversives that can be present
in the training situations.
And also you talked about wanting to mention
(43:43):
errorless learning in this and also reinforcing feeding
all of the things, even if we don't
get the behaviors we want.
Can you unpack some of these important principles
for our listeners?
So in movement puzzles, basically what we do
is that we reward every single repetition.
(44:04):
And by repetition, I mean even when the
dog hesitates, for example, looks at the exercise
and says that I'm not going to go
through that, they get the reward.
So basically the learners know that they can
say no and they still get the treat
(44:25):
that we are using during the training session.
And very often it makes people quite worried
because in most training scenarios, you are taught
that basically you reinforce the behaviors that you
want to see or the correct behaviors and
you don't reinforce the behaviors that are basically
(44:47):
incorrect.
In movement puzzles, I don't like to use
these words correct or incorrect because only the
learner knows what they can do with the
setup and they are the ones who have
to move through the setup.
You don't have to do it, so only
the learner can know how they feel about
the setup.
(45:08):
So people get worried that, oh, but then
if I reward every repetition, then won't my
dog be confused?
And the key thing here is that I
already touched it a little bit before, but
we want to make sure that when we
first start teaching movement puzzles, that the setups
and how we train these exercises is super
(45:32):
clear for the learner so that the risk
of the dog choosing to do something else
is very low.
So they do their correct behaviors or so
-called correct behaviors, the behaviors that we see
as the correct ones in this setting, basically.
So you build this habit or basically a
cue picture for the dog that if you
(45:53):
see these props, then this is the behavior
that we are looking for.
So the key thing is that when teaching
movement puzzles, you should really focus on basically
errorless learning to make sure that the setups
are very clear and that you can reinforce
basically everything that your dog does because everything
(46:16):
is the behavior that you are looking for.
And then once you get to more advanced
puzzles or situations where your dog hesitates, for
example, or goes around the props or things
like that, you basically know that your dog
already has an understanding of what these exercises
are about.
And usually when we talk about more advanced
(46:38):
movement puzzles teams, then when their dogs choose
to do something else during the exercise, then
it is to communicate a problem.
It's not that the dog doesn't understand the
exercise, they understand it well.
And they are just trying to say that
maybe the floor is slippery.
(46:59):
Maybe the setup is like, maybe there's something
moving that they find a little bit odd.
Maybe they are not comfortable with it.
Maybe they are getting tired.
That's a big one.
That fatigue also causes dogs to say, yeah,
I don't want to do it.
And when we remove these reasons for the
(47:19):
dog to say no, even when we're rewarded
all these other behaviors like hesitating and not
going through the exercise or moving around the
exercise, once we remove the actual cause for
the problem, they start doing the exercise perfectly
again.
So the learning is so multi-layered that
(47:43):
our dogs, we can't really think about dogs
or animals and thinking that we just need
to give them a food reward and that
will reinforce the behavior, because that may not
be the case.
Especially, for example, in movement puzzles, when we
think about the setups that they are intent
to help dogs in areas where they naturally
(48:07):
may not be super confident in, let's say,
tight spaces, that the dog isn't super comfortable
in tight areas.
And movement puzzles or movement puzzle setups, there
are specific setups that can help with that.
So it's working in an area where the
dog isn't naturally super confident in.
Then it means that there is a danger
(48:29):
that there are aversives in that setup for
the dog.
It can be that maybe the area is
too tight for the dog to start with.
It can be a slippery floor.
Slippery floors are big or slipping during the
training session is a big aversive for the
dog.
So even if they get a reward for
(48:49):
the correct behavior and they may understand what
the correct behavior was, they may not want
to repeat it because it's like, well, it
was physically really uncomfortable.
I don't want to do it again, despite
getting a reward.
So there are different elements at play, different
reinforcements.
So many dogs find moving reinforcing or stepping
(49:11):
onto things reinforcing.
So in movement puzzles, you have different reinforcements
happening depending on the individual dog, but you
can also have different aversives happening.
And you can't just think that when I
gave my dog a cookie for something, then
I rewarded the behavior because it may be
(49:32):
that at the same time you had aversives
at play that were more significant than that
treat.
I hope that I answered your question or
maybe you have some questions now.
I do, but we've only got so long.
So let's park my questions and there's always
(49:56):
opportunities for you to listen to learn more.
I'm going to show you where you can
go to do that shortly, but I thought
a nice way to wrap up would be
to talk about some case studies.
So we've talked about in this episode and
in the first part of our conversation, some
(50:16):
of the benefits of doing movement puzzles.
Am I correct?
Because it's been a few weeks since we
recorded part one, but dogs with that exhibit
behaviors that we might label as reactive, it's
been quite beneficial for and can give us
a case study of a dog that you've
(50:37):
seen go through the program and where it's
helped with challenges like that.
So like my own dog, but we actually
now have a reactivity special course as well.
Because last winter, so my own dog is
dog reactive in situations where other dogs appear
(51:01):
like in an otherwise empty area, they suddenly
appear, for example, in the forest.
And my dog, also because he has some
health condition that causes pain, then he finds
like he doesn't like other dogs.
And especially when they appear out of nowhere,
yeah, he's not a fan.
So he's quite reactive.
(51:22):
He was quite reactive in these situations.
And I started basically talking with our behaviors
that, yeah, like the training sessions, the reactivity
training sessions, maybe we can start trying like
doing movement puzzles during reactivity training sessions.
So we said that we have these setups
with trigger dogs or helper dogs.
(51:45):
And me and my dog would do a
very simple movement puzzle during the training session.
Because also like in reactivity training, very often
you don't want them to, like your dog
to do like obedience exercises or things like
that, because there may be that, especially with
dogs who want to work really hard, that
(52:06):
you're overrunning a bit like their need to
process the information or the surroundings.
But with movement puzzles, because there are no
handler cues and the dog is actually like
free to make their choices regarding the exercise,
then it's a pretty like soft exercise to
try.
And we started seeing like very fast improvements
(52:29):
in my own dog, his reactivity.
And also during our forest walks, something that
I hadn't been able to target with other
reactivity training protocols, because it's just like something
that like it's very difficult to imitate in
training situations that the dogs surprise you as
(52:50):
well when they appear.
And with movement puzzles, the behavior is set
up exercises like very mindfully adjusting the direction
of the puzzles, also the trigger dogs and
creating different situations during the setups.
And she actually ran the first movement puzzles
(53:13):
reactivity special course in March or started in
March.
And she's seeing very quick and incredible results
with her students as well, who are using
movement puzzles or these pattern exercises with helper
dogs essentially.
And so it's pretty awesome.
(53:34):
So it's not necessarily movement puzzles themselves helping
with reactivity, but using movement puzzles for reactivity
training and trigger setups basically.
It is awesome.
It is.
And if you listen to the show, I
think it's awesome too.
And you are wanting to go and learn
more and look at this reactivity course or
(53:57):
some of the other great offerings that you
have online, because you are in Estonia and
most of us aren't, and you want to
learn from Mari, or maybe you're in Estonia,
you can go visit Mari.
Where can people go online to find you,
to find movement puzzles and to learn more?
Our website is themovingcanine.com.
(54:20):
You can also find me on Instagram, the
.moving.canine, all words spelt out.
And also on Facebook, Mari Valigma, the moving
canine, so you can find us there.
Our reactivity course, if this is something that
you're specifically interested in, then this is a
brand new thing.
So we haven't really put it out so
(54:43):
widely yet, but it's like both me and
the behaviorist who is teaching this class, we
are super excited that you can actually use
this concept that I first developed for coordination
and body awareness, and now they are using
to help dogs feel more comfortable near other
(55:03):
dogs, or when they are seeing other dogs,
which is a really huge win, to be
honest.
However, it shouldn't be that surprising, because also
in humans, it's known that body awareness and
balance exercises can help with the behavior challenges.
(55:25):
I'm missing the human word for this now,
but like, for example, with like overcoming traumatic
events and things like that.
Resilience?
Maybe, but it's like basically like when people
are anxiety, basically, anxiety and past traumatic events.
So it is helpful in human therapy.
(55:47):
Therapy is the word that I was looking
for.
That's where I was landing as well.
We will link to all of this in
the show notes.
So thank you so much for sharing everything
with us today, Marty.
Sadly, that does bring us one more question
for this episode, because I love asking people
this question, and I've never asked an engineer
from Estonia before, and someone who's focused on
(56:09):
movement puzzles.
So I'm really curious, as you sit there
in Estonia and you run your business and
you engage online, like what's your vision for
the future in our evidence-based values-driven
practice?
What do you want to see happen over
the next 5-10 years in our industry?
(56:30):
Well, I would very selfishly say that I
would want to see more recognition of how
our dogs' physical well-being, and here I
don't mean just like physical health or like
our dogs seeing a vet regularly and having
like a good blood test results, but I
(56:52):
mean like good coordination, good balance, good body
awareness, because over the years I've seen how
much it affects the dog's behavior.
It's also when I started looking into this,
it's also linked to the nervous system, because
like for training coordination and balance, you are
training the nervous system, which is the same
(57:14):
one that works with behavior as well.
You also engage the same areas in the
brain, for example, coordination is processed in the
same brain areas as the ability to make
logical connections.
So I would like to see more of
that applied in all of dog training or
(57:36):
it becoming part of basically foundation training, not
just for sport dogs, because for sport dogs
it is becoming quite common that they are
doing different body awareness and coordination exercises, but
for all dogs.
And for example, in human children, proprioception is
often called a need, that the learner needs
(58:00):
proprioceptive feedback from the environment.
And for example, kids who are very boisterous
with their movements or very forceful with the
movements and run into things, they are, as
I understand it, they are often trying to
communicate their need for proprioceptive input, and they
(58:20):
really benefit from doing these exercises that focus
on applying their strength and coordinating their movements
and balancing.
And if we think about dogs, then we
have so many different games for our kids
to learn these skills, and we have very
few for our dogs.
And I think that it should become more
(58:40):
as a norm when raising dogs as family
members.
And I think that you can prevent a
lot of problems by paying attention to this
area as well, that there are like, there
are coordination, balance and proprioception needs.
(59:02):
And it's the same for humans as well.
Makes me think about, let's say we're considering
a dog who has behaviours like your dog,
Mari, that we label as reactive, and then
we're thinking about the most positive, least intrusive
intervention to help us with that challenge.
(59:24):
And we look at a tool like Susan
Freeman's hierarchy of behaviour change interventions according to
the most positive, least intrusive, effective alternative.
And then the first turn off on that
is meeting needs and wellness.
And so often I think maybe we enter
the hierarchy higher up thinking about positive reinforcement
(59:49):
and what behaviours we're going to train, but
if we can add the consideration of proprioception
and confidence that comes from being able to
move your body effectively in a variety of
different contexts, and then potentially that will serve
(01:00:14):
as a least intrusive option for many individuals.
That's exciting.
Yes.
Yes, it is.
Plus it also, it makes like all the
next steps a lot easier.
Once your dog feels super comfortable in their
body, it's like teaching other new skills will
be so much easier because otherwise your dog
(01:00:36):
has to learn how to use his body
anyway.
But then if you don't pay attention to
it separately, then your dog will have to
basically like multitask when you are trying to
teach something.
They are like trying to understand the criteria,
trying to understand how to use their body
at the same time, and it slows down
the learning.
But like, I can't remember what we were
(01:00:58):
talking about in the beginning of this podcast,
but you mentioned something similar that when your
dog is already like knows how to use
his body, then it's like you can quickly
teach the other criteria and the thinking parts
of like different exercises, because your dog doesn't
have to focus anymore on like, oh, how
(01:01:20):
am I going to solve this physically?
Because they're like, yeah, I have the solution.
Now I just have to understand what I
should be doing here.
Exactly.
Yeah.
It's like, to give an example, I was
running into some issues on my website, and
so I've been working with a developer for
six, seven months to try to figure out
(01:01:43):
what's going on.
We finally figured out it's due to one
specific page and some of the features being
used on that page and what they require
from the server, and if a visitor visits
that page, it's overwhelming the server.
So we've identified that now, but that has
been an open, like if you think about
it, like your browser, like that has been
an open tab in my mind for like
(01:02:05):
six months, you know, and every time I'm
making a business decision, like I've got six
or seven, probably more than like 60 or
70 open tabs in my mind, you know,
and my goal is always to shut down
some tabs.
Like people, when I share my browser screen
in Zoom, people are like, oh my God,
(01:02:26):
I can't believe how many tabs you have
open on your browser.
I'm like, yeah, it's kind of like my
mind.
So it's kind of like closing some tabs
down in your dog's mind to free up
some space and to create this overwhelm.
People get overwhelmed by having too many tabs
open.
Yeah, and also, for example, the clearest example
(01:02:51):
of this has been some of our students
who do nose work with their dogs, and
they say that after they started doing movement
puzzles, their dogs become a lot more efficient
in their searches, and I suspect that partly
this is because the dog is then, can
focus more on the search itself, not like
how am I going to navigate this area,
(01:03:14):
because like nose work dogs often work in
very tricky areas, and the dogs then, once
they've done movement puzzles, they can focus on
the search and following order without like thinking
that this part of the area looks dodgy.
I don't, I'm not sure I can go
in there or if I can fit there,
but after having done movement puzzles, they're like,
(01:03:34):
yeah, I can totally do this.
I'll go there to find the doors.
That makes a lot of sense.
It has been so much fun, Mari, from
myself and on behalf of everyone listening, we
really appreciate you taking the time to come
and hang out with us.
Thank you for having me.
You're very, very welcome.
Thank you so much.
(01:03:56):
And thank you so much for listening as
well.
This is your host, Ryan Cartlidge, signing off
from this episode of the Animal Training Academy
podcast show.
We hope today's conversation inspired you and equipped
you with new tools for your trainer's toolbox.
Remember, every challenge in training is an opportunity
(01:04:18):
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And don't forget, the path to growing your
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We're here cheering you on every step of
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See you at the next episode.
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to help you supercharge your training skills, grow
your knowledge, and build your confidence so that
you can craft a life that positively impacts
(01:32):
every learner you encounter.
We'll start today's episode where I'm thrilled to
welcome back to the show for part two
of my conversation, the awesome Mari Volgma.
And if you haven't listened to the first
part of our conversation, you can find it
as the previous episode on whatever app you're
(01:55):
listening to the show on.
In that episode, we explored Mari's journey in
getting started with positive reinforcement training, what led
her to developing movement puzzles, which we're going
to unpack more in this episode today.
It's definitely worth a listen.
However, if you haven't listened to it yet,
no worries.
You are, of course, welcome to start here
with part two, where you're still going to
(02:16):
gain plenty of insights to help you grow
your skills, knowledge, and confidence in your training.
So let's dive straight in.
Mari, thanks so much for taking the time
to come and hang out with us again
at Animal Training Academy.
It's so wonderful to have you here for
part two.
Welcome back.
Thank you so much for having me here.
I'm very excited to be here and talk
more about movement puzzles.
(02:38):
Yeah, we're going to go deep on movement
puzzles today.
We covered them a little bit in part
one, but maybe we can just give the
listeners a little bit of a recap about
what movement puzzles are, why you came up
with them, and a couple of benefits, and
then we'll dive in.
(02:59):
Okay, so movement puzzles are, at their core,
pattern movement exercises where the dog moves between
one bowl to another.
So going from one bowl to the other
bowl, and then back to the first bowl.
Gradually, we add different exercises for the dog
(03:23):
to do between the two bowls.
In movement puzzles, the exercises that we add
between the bowls are generally exercises that are
targeting coordination, body awareness, perception skills for our
dogs, so that they would learn how to
(03:44):
control their movements, control their body while actually
in motion, and also develop coordination while moving.
And the dog does the exercises independently, so
we are not giving them handler cues, because
in most situations, our cues actually can be
distracting for the dog.
(04:05):
So here we want to split it up
and make sure that the dog can focus
on developing their own coordination and feeling how
their movement essentially feels like to them without
getting distracted by handler cues or thinking about
what the exercise criteria might be.
(04:26):
And the reason why I started with movement
puzzles was basically when I saw that my
dog had been doing quite stationary and foundation
fitness exercises for most of his life, but
he was struggling in certain situations where he
had to run and coordinate his movements or
(04:49):
balance in trickier situations.
So I was trying to figure out how
can I help him develop these skills separately
from the sports exercises, because in sports exercises
I would want my dog to focus on
understanding the criteria and doing the exercise basically
(05:09):
correctly based on the sports exercise criteria.
So I wanted to make sure that my
dog would know how to actually use his
body for these exercises before we actually started
doing them.
And that's how movement puzzles started.
The very first movement puzzle exercises were some
very basic setups.
(05:31):
For example, the dog moving around the cone
and there being poles placed on the ground
behind the cone so that the dog would
focus on the paw placement while in motion
during a turn.
But gradually, these exercises have grown a lot
bigger, so we can actually do a sequence
of different exercises between two poles and the
(05:53):
dog knows they basically what we do is
that we link each prop that we use
because we do use quite a lot of
props to help dogs develop coordination and balance
skills.
So the dog understands what each prop means
or what behavior is linked to it.
Is it like I should move underneath this
(06:13):
prop?
I should move around this prop?
I should move over this prop, for example.
So they see one prop, they do the
exercise instantly.
They see the next prop, they do the
exercise because it becomes quite an automatic reaction
for them at this stage.
So we can build longer sequences of these
exercises.
(06:34):
But the basic foundation is still the dog
moving from one pole to another and then
returning back to the first pole and repeating
that pattern.
And you mentioned fitness in there.
Yes.
But we talked about this in part one,
but before we get going, kind of paint
the outcome for the listener of the show
(06:57):
of engaging in movement puzzles.
So we obviously get a dog who's moving
through all of these obstacles, but who does
this dog become?
What do they build?
Confidence?
Resilience?
What are some of the main benefits you're
saying?
They build confidence in using their own bodies
in all kinds of situations.
(07:19):
And generally, I don't want to say that
we are going to build like scary setups
for the dog, but the setups that the
movement puzzles or advanced movement puzzles often become
are something that the dogs probably naturally wouldn't
choose if they first saw the setup.
So for example, we have a setup of
(07:41):
a noisy curtain.
So that's basically things that touch the dog's
body and make noise.
It was inspired by search and rescue training
with my own dog, where dogs have to
work in like in rubble searches.
They have to be able to move through
stuff that makes noise, touches their bodies.
And I wanted to make sure that my
(08:02):
dog is comfortable with it before he entered
the rubble area.
And now it has become a confidence-boosting
exercise for very many dogs.
But it's not something that many dogs would
choose naturally, that you set up a curtain
of stuff that makes noise, and the dogs
are just like, no, I'm not going to
(08:23):
do that.
But we build the setup so gradually and
so step by step that the dogs are
constantly thinking, yes, I'm in.
I want to do this.
This is fun.
And before you notice, you've managed to do
the whole noisy curtain thing and your dog
thinks that it's super fun and the coolest
exercise ever.
(08:44):
So basically, we are building the dog's trust
in their own bodies and their ability, them
knowing that whatever setup they may face, they're
like, yes, I can totally do this.
I'm happy with it.
I'm confident.
It's fine.
I don't mind things touching my body.
I don't mind things making noise around me.
(09:04):
I can just do the exercise.
I just had a thought as you were
saying that I don't mind things touching my
body, like that would bleed into, I would
guess, and you tell me, things like cooperative
care handling, because suddenly now the dog's comfortable
with things touching their hind legs and their
feet and various parts of their body.
(09:25):
And also dogs will feel a lot more
comfortable in their surroundings.
For example, in the living room where there
may be tight areas, for example, between the
coffee table and the sofa.
And if the dog happens to be cautious
of tight areas and things going against their
body, then this kind of exercises will make
the dog feel a lot more at ease
(09:47):
in these situations and also expand their world,
essentially, when they discover that, oh, actually, I'm
perfectly fine doing these exercises.
And part of the, or not just exercises,
I'm perfectly fine in these situations in general,
because these skills generalize pretty well.
(10:08):
And essentially, while I don't really talk that
much about Movement Puzzles as a fitness training
tool, we are more focused on Movement Puzzles
as a confidence boosting tool, because essentially what
we are helping dogs and humans achieve is
(10:29):
dogs feeling confident and happy in their bodies
and happy navigating the world, sport situations, whatever
they may face.
But one of the reasons why they work
and help the dogs feel more confident is
that they build these fitness skills, coordination, body
awareness.
(10:49):
So, for example, the same curtain of things
that touches the dog's body, then this is
super valuable, like touch sensory feedback for the
dog of how big their body is, actually,
where their back is.
They may not get this information from other
exercises.
For example, if we do paw target exercises,
then they understand where their paws are, but
(11:11):
not necessarily where their back is.
So, we can use these kind of setups
to help to improve body awareness and thus
also confidence.
And the dogs just knowing how big their
bodies are.
So, would you say build an appropriate perception?
Yes.
The sixth sense, I think it's called another
(11:34):
sense.
That's when little kids see ghosts, Mari.
That's what the sixth sense is.
I don't know if you've what I'm imagining
is a PVC structure with some chains and
some kitchen utensils or some random things hanging
down that the dog has to push through.
(11:54):
They feel different.
They sound different.
But for those, tell me if you're imagining
something completely different than what you set up.
And also paint a picture for the audience
in terms of what you mean when you
say curtain of things.
Oh, it's basically, it is whatever you imagine
it to be, as long as it's safe
for the dog and the dog wouldn't get
(12:15):
tangled in the stuff.
So, we don't really use anything that has
strings or things that get tangled around the
head or paws or tail.
My curtain of things is like industrial thread
spools hanging on threads.
Some people use pool noodles and mixed with
(12:38):
plastic bottles, for example, and things like that.
There are also people who have used like
plastic Easter egg like things.
So, they are like on a thread and
in a kind of a chain of them.
So, these things put together.
Obviously, we don't start with noisy things if
(12:58):
the dog happens to be noise sensitive.
So, with these dogs, we would start with
something that didn't make any sound, just like
touching the body.
And for them, we would add the noisy
parts very gradually and not that close to
the body first.
So, it is adjustable to the dog as
(13:18):
well.
But basically, the curtain of stuff is like,
as the description says, curtain of stuff.
And what are you using as your structure
to hang things?
Mine are agility jumps.
So, the curtain is basically hanging on a
pole and I use jump wings.
(13:38):
But most people create some PVC tube structure
or, for example, you can put chairs to
hold it up.
Yeah, makes sense.
But also, just a word of caution that
I do recommend people not to start with
this exercise.
Yeah, that also makes sense.
Because it sounds fun and it's super beneficial.
(14:00):
And people often want to start with it,
but it's an advanced exercise.
So, it does require quite a few prerequisite
skills first.
So, don't start with it, please.
Yeah, cool.
I hope to, maybe not right now, but
soon talk about the difference between beginner skills
and more advanced skills.
But let's go right back.
(14:20):
You mentioned the two bowl game.
Can you talk about, just revisit that, talk
about what it is, where it came from,
and why that's important to move in puzzles?
So, I learned it from Milan Lawler at
Fancy Dog Sports Academy.
And I know that there are quite a
few classes in there that teach the two
(14:42):
bowl game.
But it's essentially, it's first taught with the
bowls really close to you or even in
front of you basically next to each other.
And we use a marker word to tell
the dog that in the long run, it
becomes like, well done, you will get the
(15:03):
reward.
But at this stage, you're basically just saying
your marker word and deliver a treat in
one bowl.
Then you say your marker word and deliver
the treat in the other bowl, just for
the dog to see that, oh, there's a
pattern, we are moving from one bowl to
another.
And then you gradually start increasing the distance
between them.
And then you start adding exercises one by
(15:26):
one, so that the dog basically does the
exercise and gets a reinforcement in one bowl,
then returns to the exercise and gets reward
or reinforcement in the other bowl.
And one of the very important elements of
this exercise is that we want to build
(15:48):
that independent return to the exercise, because how
quickly the dog wants to get back to
the exercise tells a lot about their comfort
with exercise.
So we want to pay attention to that.
And if we see any hesitation from the
dog's part, or the dog thinking that, yeah,
(16:11):
this was fun, but I don't feel like
doing it anymore, or whatever they may try
to communicate to us with hesitation, then we
must listen to it and pay attention to
it and respect the dogs basically saying no.
I really love Dr. Susan Friedman's, I think
(16:34):
that she uses it in slightly different context
that respect the no shape the yes.
So that's what we want to do with
movement puzzles as well.
We always want to respect the no and
very often it starts with just like the
dog slightly hesitating before returning to the exercise
or before going towards the other bowl.
Yes, and if you haven't listened to episode
(16:55):
250 of our show, you the fantastic listener,
go back and listen to Dr. Susan Friedman
talk about that concept.
A couple of questions before we go any
deeper, just for the listeners a little bit
of context, like what's the time frame here?
Like how long have you been focused specifically
on movement puzzles?
(17:19):
I started doing them with my own dogs
during COVID.
So that was in 2020.
That's when I started experimenting with them.
I would say that I was doing them
for about a year and then took a
short break because initially it was in my
(17:42):
mind it was a fitness training tool and
I wasn't fully happy with it.
I was like, yeah, but there are like
there are other fitness training tools out there.
So it's like something is missing.
But then I started getting messages from people
who had been doing my first movement puzzles
(18:03):
course and they started saying that, hey, I
started doing movement puzzles and it's the only
thing that I changed in my dog's training
routine.
And I started noticing this, this, this, and
they like reduction in reactivity, dogs becoming less
sensitive to noises, dogs feeling more relaxed at
(18:24):
home, all these like behavioral changes.
And I was like, huh, that's super interesting.
Like, how can it be that we are
doing this like movement puzzles, pattern movement exercises,
focusing on coordination and balance skills, and people
are seeing benefits in all these different areas.
(18:44):
And that's when I actually get them interested
again in movement puzzles in the sense that
then it started clicking for me that, yes,
there is something more to it and it's
worth investigating more and see like, where can
we take this concept and how can we
help our dogs?
(19:05):
Amazing.
And just, just before we go on, just
quickly clarify, I'm calling them movement puzzles, but
we're kind of interchanging between movement puzzles and
movement patterns.
They're the same thing, just for the listener
of the show.
They are the same thing.
Yeah.
The official name is a movement puzzles, but
they like the, it is a pattern exercise
basically.
So that's where the pattern comes from.
(19:26):
Yeah.
And, and for listeners of the show, as
I start to imagine what this could look
like for them and either their dogs or
their clients, I'm assuming that in terms of
a a puzzle, a activity, a program that
you can teach to your clients, the simplicity
(19:48):
of it is, is appealing in terms of
like go from this bowl to this bowl.
I mean, that's just a task that you
can give a client that is super low
hanging fruit in terms of it's hard to
mess that up.
It's pretty easy.
And then is that kind of like an
appeal that you'll found that people have liked
(20:11):
about movement puzzles?
Yes.
And also they like that the dog is
doing it themselves.
Themselves.
Some people would like there to be always
handler cues, but like, but yeah, the movement
puzzles are not for handler cues, basically.
We are trying to remove ourselves, the handlers
(20:32):
as much as possible.
We are there to observe the dog, how
they are interacting with the setup and if
the setup needs to be adjusted based on
what the dog's choices and movement communicates.
So we are there observers, but also people
find the fact that the dog, it basically
(20:53):
looks like DIY obstacle courses, which people find
instantly attractive.
It's like doing, people like to think that
it's like doing agility in your backyard.
Well, it's not exactly agility, but people do
find it super appealing.
And also, for example, people find it similar
(21:13):
to parkour.
But just with the exception that the dog
is doing the exercises independently.
The cue is like my humans here, but
they're not doing anything.
And that's my cue to do things.
Yeah, basically.
But because also like they get the setup
instantly that it's usually there are cones because
(21:36):
we use cones, buckets are similar as like
guides through the course so that the dogs
learn to go around the cones.
And basically, I'm not sure like how familiar
you are with agility, but basically you have
like optimal approach lines to different obstacles.
So in movement puzzles, we try to use
cones to help dogs approach trickier setups or
(22:00):
like exercises where it's important that, for example,
that they turn to the exercise a few
meters earlier, not like the last minute.
So we use cones and like the contextual
cues are pretty strong for the dog, but
it's puzzle time.
Has anyone ever done it with a cat?
Yes, we have cats as well who have
(22:22):
done it.
I haven't seen advanced videos from them, but
I know that people have definitely started very
successfully with cats and horses as well.
Guinea pigs are also doing them.
All right, cat, horse and guinea pig trainers
out there, there's your challenge.
Some advanced movement puzzles.
So I'm imagining a situation with my cat,
(22:44):
Marty, who I am very intermittent with my
training because the listeners of the show, you
won't know this, but Marty and I, this
is the fourth time we've attempted to record
this episode because somebody in my house is
always sick, two young kids under the age
of six and being winter here in New
(23:07):
Zealand, that also means, Marty, that my training
is intermittent.
So I haven't done a training session with
my cat.
I'm like working on this thing with my
cat and it's like real consistent for a
while, but then like it's been about three
weeks since I did a session because I
just haven't been able to fit that in
to my day, which means that, and that's
how my training's looked for years.
(23:28):
And so I get my cat into my
office and we do like a trick behavior
for a trick title.
And I use a lot of lures and
prompts because it's like, just want to do
something quick while I've got an opportunity.
So what I've tried my cat to do
is to sit down and look at me.
All right.
And I posted this in our Facebook community
just to kind of see what ideas people
(23:49):
would come up with.
Like, Hey, I've got this learner who is
cued by me to do nothing.
Well, not nothing.
Sit and look at me.
Is it helpful for that situation?
Because people were like suggesting like 101 things
to do with a box and these kinds
of things that have had lots of interesting
discussions online about the pros and cons of
them.
(24:09):
And I'm just, that example came to my
mind as you were talking, oh, this could
be helpful for Tilo to kind of learn
to independently do things from me.
But then I'm also like, there's still props
and stuff in the environment.
So just got curious.
And also like with these setups, we want
to be very careful with how we set
(24:30):
it up because we want to make sure
that the learner is correct and they get
the reward.
And also that they wouldn't link like a
hundred different behaviors with the same scenario because
otherwise it will be very difficult for them
(24:51):
to do the exercise reliably.
And also there's a difference.
So for example, if the dog is trying
to figure out the exercise criteria, let's say
that you have like three boxes, one after
another, and the dog is supposed to like
step from one box to another, like on
top of the boxes, basically.
(25:11):
So platforms.
So they are basically like a human would
step from one rock to another, basically in
a sequence.
And if your dog is like trying to
figure out the criteria, then yes, they are
working on their coordination at the same time,
like trying to figure out how to use
their body, like, or what is required, how
(25:33):
am I supposed to move my body?
But also there's coordination linked to the fact
where the learner knows exactly what the criteria
is and then tries to, or their nervous
system tries to find out the most efficient
way to do that exercise.
So for example, instead of trying to figure
(25:53):
out, what should I do with these three
boxes?
The learner knows that I should step from
one box to another.
And then the repetitions are there for the
nervous system to figure out like, what's the
most efficient and the best way to do
it?
How will I feel most comfortable?
How can I balance?
(26:14):
Should I start with this foot or the
other foot?
And you soon see that your dog starts
developing different preferences, that while first their choices
may look a little bit like random, soon
you start seeing that they start doing, like,
getting more settled into what they've discovered about
(26:35):
the exercise.
And for those listeners, Mari was, it's evening
in Estonia and Mari was just slowly getting
darker and darker as her coordination progressed.
Thanks for turning on the light.
You know, my five-year-old Mari says
that she thinks she is an amazing scooter
rider and she wants to be a scooter
(26:57):
instructor when she grows up.
And she teaches me and my wife, like
we're really stupid.
She teaches us how to ride scooters, like
how to put our leg up properly and
stuff.
But I remember when she first got the
scooter, we went out and just brought her
and took her home, surprised her.
It was like, hey, look, here's a scooter,
let's go scootering.
And she'd get on this board and she
(27:17):
would like, it's got two wheels at the
front and one at the back.
So depending on where she puts her foot
pressure, the board will turn left or right.
Yeah.
And she'd get on and she'll just crash
into the grass on the side.
And she'd get back up and crash and
crash and crash.
And over an hour, I just saw her
crashing less and less and going straighter and
straighter because the environment, through no thought process,
(27:38):
I imagine she was about three at the
time, was just...
It's like it's the nervous system.
The nervous system.
Yeah.
So the environment's telling her nervous system, put
foot here with this amount of pressure.
So that kind of came to mind and
that process happening.
It was a very cool thing to watch.
I talk about it often, but it comes
(27:59):
to mind like that's kind of what's happening
with the dogs is like, they're not necessarily,
and I'm not saying they're not, because maybe
they are, but like, it's just, there's just
this feedback to their muscles and their foot
and their pressure, like in terms of how
to move through these puzzles.
And I think that what I've encountered a
(28:21):
lot is that people say that they want
to see their dog thinking and they don't
see, like, they are afraid that the movement
puzzles, they lose that.
And they want to see more of that,
like trial and error or the dog trying
to figure out the exercise.
But actually, these exercises are designed to be
(28:43):
so clear to the dog that the dog
doesn't have to think like, oh, what's the
criteria?
What's the criteria?
What am I supposed to do here?
It's supposed to be so clear for the
dog that they know the criteria and that
their nervous system can then start using that
environmental feedback to adjust the body and to
(29:05):
find the best solution for the dog.
And it doesn't mean that we do like
hundreds of repetitions of the same thing.
It's usually like we do very quick training
sessions and not focusing on doing like super
long sessions of the same thing.
But we also, in movement puzzles, we kind
(29:27):
of want to adjust the exercise and change
the setup very frequently to challenge the nervous
system so that it's like after every few
repetitions, when you see that your dog starts
to like settle, like your kid was starting
to like get the grip of the balance,
you start adding like smaller challenges that, for
(29:49):
example, you move the props a little bit
so that it's like slightly different and that
they have to adjust again so that they...
Basically, what we are doing is that we
are not focusing on the learner thinking.
I don't really want to say that we
are not focusing on that because like we
do want our learners to be like thinkers.
(30:11):
But the goal is that the exercise criteria
should be very clear for the learner so
that they can then focus on the nervous
system taking over and adjusting the movements and
applying that feedback that they get from the
environment in the most efficient way.
Because that's what our dogs also need to
do when doing sports.
(30:32):
Their bodies need to be like very adjustable
and make changes very quickly based on the
feedback that they get from the environment.
This is logically actually helping those people achieve
that goal when they want to see their
dogs thinking more.
So I'll throw some logic at you and
(30:53):
you can see where it lands.
But building confidence and confidence coming from dogs'
bodies becoming more skilled, influent at navigating obstacles,
having things touch them, etc.
(31:14):
That is going to then flow into sessions
where the dogs have to think more about
how to access the reinforcement because the piece
of the puzzle about can I do this
has been removed and it's kind of happening
automatically.
So it does achieve that goal.
It's just something like foundations and building blocks
(31:36):
to just build general skills before.
Yes.
And I also think that the fact that
we can't see our learners thinking doesn't mean
that they are not thinking.
Because for me, I often think about when
I think about this that we want to
(31:56):
see our dogs thinking.
The fact is that, for example, in high
school I was very good at maths.
When I had a maths test, I was
just writing.
You wouldn't see me thinking like I'm doing
any of these funny movements like chewing my
pencil or looking into the ceiling.
I was just writing very quickly.
(32:16):
While some people next to me, they were
struggling.
They were like scratching through their numbers and
then looking into a ceiling and then thinking.
And it doesn't mean that I wasn't thinking
when I was doing the maths test.
It was just that for me it was
so logical and it was so clear that
(32:37):
I could just do it, very quickly process
the information and apply it.
And I'm slightly worried that very often when
we say that we want to see our
dogs thinking, if we are accidentally kind of
like take away their logical thinking in that
(32:58):
sense, if that makes sense.
In the sense that we want them to
be like not processing information quickly, but we
want to see them processing information, which may
be the slower path, if it makes sense
what I just said.
Yeah, it makes sense to me.
The word fluency comes to mind.
(33:18):
Is it?
You had a level of fluency there that
others didn't?
Yes, you could say that.
And I think that we can also say
that about dogs.
And what I find super interesting is that
when we teach MoMA and puzzles to our
dogs, we are essentially teaching them concept.
(33:40):
We are teaching them the concept of going
between things that are like close together.
So basically forming a narrow gap, going underneath
things, going over things.
And it always amazes me that when we've
taught the skills this way, basically like concept
of going between things, going over things.
(34:01):
When I start teaching a new exercise to
my dog that requires these same skills, like
going underneath something or going between things, it
takes me usually like less than a minute
for my dog to get it, to understand
it fluently and to actually apply it even
(34:22):
at a distance from me and doing it
independently.
So I'm just thinking that basically the way
that we teach MoMA and puzzles is like
teaching our dogs the logic of doing the
exercises, and then they can just apply it
to any situation that looks familiar to them
from these concepts.
So for the person listening, how does a
(34:44):
person get started?
Grab two bowls?
That sounds like it would be a logical
step.
Can you offer any more in terms of
what equipment you might suggest people get?
How do they manufacture the first steps?
And give some examples of a puzzle for
a beginner dog.
And then just to help us contrast that,
(35:06):
give us some examples of what a puzzle
might look like for an advanced dog, or
cat, or hamster, or horse.
So with a two-bowl game, you basically
started with the bowls quite close together.
It depends very much on the dog how
far apart you put them.
So let's say that you have them on
(35:28):
your sides, essentially, or your width part.
You have treats in both hands, so this
is important.
You use both hands for a reward delivery.
And you start with your dog just like
being in front of you.
You're saying your marker word that you would
later intend to use to mean a treat
(35:51):
will be in the bowl, essentially.
You say your marker word.
Be mindful of your own mechanics, that your
hands are still when you're saying your marker
word.
And then after you've said your marker word,
a slight pause, and then you deliver a
treat in one bowl.
And then as soon as your dog finishes
eating that treat and starts lifting their head,
(36:13):
because that's the first movement that the dog
actually has to do in order to get
to the other bowl, you already say your
marker word and place the treat in the
other bowl.
And this first step, it's, I always like
to say that don't think that your dog
has to go to the other bowl on
their own.
They don't.
(36:33):
The first step is basically you creating a
pattern so that you say the marker word,
you deliver a treat as you promised in
one of the bowls.
Your dog eats the treat, lifts the head,
and you say your marker word and treat
in the other bowl, essentially.
And very quickly, dogs generally catch on.
(36:56):
They understand, this human is like moving in
a pattern.
I get treat from one bowl and then
the treat appears in the other bowl.
So usually you can start delaying your marker
word very quickly because you see your dog
looking towards the other bowl or even leaning
towards the other bowl already.
So you can gradually start delaying your marker
(37:17):
word to basically mark the first steps towards
the other bowl.
And when that happens, you can start moving
the bowl slightly further apart.
And at this stage, I wouldn't move them
further like a comfortable arm's reach because you
need to be comfortable with your own mechanics
(37:38):
as well.
And usually the first exercise that I teach
is moving around a cone or a bucket
or a flowerpot or something similar.
And you place it right in front of
you so that your dog can't move between
you and the flowerpot.
You want the flowerpot or the cone be
(37:59):
between you and your dog, definitely.
So you place it really close to you
and you basically do the same pattern just
with the prop there.
And then you gradually start either moving the
prop slightly further away from you or keep
the prop in its place and then start
moving you and the bowls back a bit
(38:20):
to increase distance because that actually keeping the
prop in place works better for many dogs.
So that's how you get started.
That's a pattern that I think we can
all understand.
And many of us listening, including myself, have
taught go around the cone.
I'm trying to think back to how I
taught it, but I wasn't using bowls like
(38:41):
that.
And I can see where that would have
added clarity, I think, to my teaching process
for my dog.
Can you also now contrast that for the
listener in terms of an advanced puzzle that
your dogs are doing?
Yes.
So one of the last puzzles that I
came up with for our students was what
(39:02):
I call the blocked exit puzzle, which means
that there were like two cardboard boxes and
there were, well, we created a curtain between
the boxes so that the dog, it wouldn't,
or it doesn't look like there's a way
through, essentially, for the dog.
But we teach it gradually.
(39:24):
And also, there are ways to create clarity
with the setup to make sure that the
dog knows that in this setup, I can
push through versus in some other situations where
it's maybe not the smartest thing to push
through.
So you create the setup to make sure
that your dog knows that in this setting,
(39:45):
it's fine to push through and things will
start moving away once you put pressure on
it.
But essentially, the dogs are like pushing through
and there are like multiple curtains in a
row so that they go through one curtain
and it still looks a little bit blocked
and then they push through another one.
(40:06):
So we are big fans of curtains, basically.
I just had this vision to draw some
parallels for the listeners if it's helpful.
But when we go to the swimming pool
and there's a giant inflatable obstacle courses, which
are like, and your child, who's never done
(40:28):
even like a basic floatie, like jumps on
it, gets past the first obstacle and then
there's like the next one immediately.
And they're doing that with no skills of
like stabilizing themselves on an inflatable surface.
Anyway, I hope that was valuable for anyone
listening.
Yeah, I just want to clarify that with
all these setups, like there are prerequisite skills
(40:49):
that we teach first to the dog.
So they never start with this like only
getting rewarded when they push through, basically.
There's no such situation because the dog would
get the reward even if they moved around
the setup.
Like if the dog tells me that, no,
I'm not going to push through this that
you just built me, they still get the
(41:10):
reward.
So the dogs are not losing out on
anything.
But because we've built these skills so gradually,
then dogs actually, even very cautious and sensitive
ones, start wanting to push through these things,
basically.
They're like, yes, I can do this.
This is fun.
Awesome.
And during this whole time, the human, their
(41:33):
role is just silent observers and letting their
dogs figure out until they get to the
behavior that they mark, which is arriving at
the bowl.
Yes.
But basically, it's also that, especially when we
talk about the advanced puzzles, then chances are
that the dog knows the criteria really well.
(41:55):
When they see a setup, they know what
it's about.
And you probably have had quite a bit
of experience of doing these basically dog's choice
based puzzles and doing them in a way
that your dog is successful.
So all of us have these moments where
our dogs do other behaviors.
(42:16):
They start going around the exercise.
They hesitate near the bowl saying that, yeah,
I'm not going through this thing because I
know this.
I have firsthand experience because I create these
exercises.
I often have this that I set up
an exercise to try it out and my
dogs tell me that, yeah, no, let's try
(42:39):
something else.
So your goal as a handler is to
observe your dog's reaction to the setup.
Usually, like at this stage, when you are
at advanced team, then it is your dog
just hesitating slightly or maybe changing their speed
while doing the exercise.
(42:59):
So your goal is to change the setup
or adjust the setup to make sure that
your dog is 100% comfortable.
And if it happens that you accidentally set
it up a little bit too difficult and
your dog tells you that, hey, this is
too hard, you make it easier and then
build it back up in more gradual steps,
(43:20):
always making sure that your dog is happy
doing the exercise.
And so the things you mentioned before we
push record today that you wanted to talk
about was the other reinforcement and you touched
on it there, but not maybe in this
frame, the other aversives that can be present
in the training situations.
And also you talked about wanting to mention
(43:43):
errorless learning in this and also reinforcing feeding
all of the things, even if we don't
get the behaviors we want.
Can you unpack some of these important principles
for our listeners?
So in movement puzzles, basically what we do
is that we reward every single repetition.
(44:04):
And by repetition, I mean even when the
dog hesitates, for example, looks at the exercise
and says that I'm not going to go
through that, they get the reward.
So basically the learners know that they can
say no and they still get the treat
(44:25):
that we are using during the training session.
And very often it makes people quite worried
because in most training scenarios, you are taught
that basically you reinforce the behaviors that you
want to see or the correct behaviors and
you don't reinforce the behaviors that are basically
(44:47):
incorrect.
In movement puzzles, I don't like to use
these words correct or incorrect because only the
learner knows what they can do with the
setup and they are the ones who have
to move through the setup.
You don't have to do it, so only
the learner can know how they feel about
the setup.
(45:08):
So people get worried that, oh, but then
if I reward every repetition, then won't my
dog be confused?
And the key thing here is that I
already touched it a little bit before, but
we want to make sure that when we
first start teaching movement puzzles, that the setups
and how we train these exercises is super
(45:32):
clear for the learner so that the risk
of the dog choosing to do something else
is very low.
So they do their correct behaviors or so
-called correct behaviors, the behaviors that we see
as the correct ones in this setting, basically.
So you build this habit or basically a
cue picture for the dog that if you
(45:53):
see these props, then this is the behavior
that we are looking for.
So the key thing is that when teaching
movement puzzles, you should really focus on basically
errorless learning to make sure that the setups
are very clear and that you can reinforce
basically everything that your dog does because everything
(46:16):
is the behavior that you are looking for.
And then once you get to more advanced
puzzles or situations where your dog hesitates, for
example, or goes around the props or things
like that, you basically know that your dog
already has an understanding of what these exercises
are about.
And usually when we talk about more advanced
(46:38):
movement puzzles teams, then when their dogs choose
to do something else during the exercise, then
it is to communicate a problem.
It's not that the dog doesn't understand the
exercise, they understand it well.
And they are just trying to say that
maybe the floor is slippery.
(46:59):
Maybe the setup is like, maybe there's something
moving that they find a little bit odd.
Maybe they are not comfortable with it.
Maybe they are getting tired.
That's a big one.
That fatigue also causes dogs to say, yeah,
I don't want to do it.
And when we remove these reasons for the
(47:19):
dog to say no, even when we're rewarded
all these other behaviors like hesitating and not
going through the exercise or moving around the
exercise, once we remove the actual cause for
the problem, they start doing the exercise perfectly
again.
So the learning is so multi-layered that
(47:43):
our dogs, we can't really think about dogs
or animals and thinking that we just need
to give them a food reward and that
will reinforce the behavior, because that may not
be the case.
Especially, for example, in movement puzzles, when we
think about the setups that they are intent
to help dogs in areas where they naturally
(48:07):
may not be super confident in, let's say,
tight spaces, that the dog isn't super comfortable
in tight areas.
And movement puzzles or movement puzzle setups, there
are specific setups that can help with that.
So it's working in an area where the
dog isn't naturally super confident in.
Then it means that there is a danger
(48:29):
that there are aversives in that setup for
the dog.
It can be that maybe the area is
too tight for the dog to start with.
It can be a slippery floor.
Slippery floors are big or slipping during the
training session is a big aversive for the
dog.
So even if they get a reward for
(48:49):
the correct behavior and they may understand what
the correct behavior was, they may not want
to repeat it because it's like, well, it
was physically really uncomfortable.
I don't want to do it again, despite
getting a reward.
So there are different elements at play, different
reinforcements.
So many dogs find moving reinforcing or stepping
(49:11):
onto things reinforcing.
So in movement puzzles, you have different reinforcements
happening depending on the individual dog, but you
can also have different aversives happening.
And you can't just think that when I
gave my dog a cookie for something, then
I rewarded the behavior because it may be
(49:32):
that at the same time you had aversives
at play that were more significant than that
treat.
I hope that I answered your question or
maybe you have some questions now.
I do, but we've only got so long.
So let's park my questions and there's always
(49:56):
opportunities for you to listen to learn more.
I'm going to show you where you can
go to do that shortly, but I thought
a nice way to wrap up would be
to talk about some case studies.
So we've talked about in this episode and
in the first part of our conversation, some
(50:16):
of the benefits of doing movement puzzles.
Am I correct?
Because it's been a few weeks since we
recorded part one, but dogs with that exhibit
behaviors that we might label as reactive, it's
been quite beneficial for and can give us
a case study of a dog that you've
(50:37):
seen go through the program and where it's
helped with challenges like that.
So like my own dog, but we actually
now have a reactivity special course as well.
Because last winter, so my own dog is
dog reactive in situations where other dogs appear
(51:01):
like in an otherwise empty area, they suddenly
appear, for example, in the forest.
And my dog, also because he has some
health condition that causes pain, then he finds
like he doesn't like other dogs.
And especially when they appear out of nowhere,
yeah, he's not a fan.
So he's quite reactive.
(51:22):
He was quite reactive in these situations.
And I started basically talking with our behaviors
that, yeah, like the training sessions, the reactivity
training sessions, maybe we can start trying like
doing movement puzzles during reactivity training sessions.
So we said that we have these setups
with trigger dogs or helper dogs.
(51:45):
And me and my dog would do a
very simple movement puzzle during the training session.
Because also like in reactivity training, very often
you don't want them to, like your dog
to do like obedience exercises or things like
that, because there may be that, especially with
dogs who want to work really hard, that
(52:06):
you're overrunning a bit like their need to
process the information or the surroundings.
But with movement puzzles, because there are no
handler cues and the dog is actually like
free to make their choices regarding the exercise,
then it's a pretty like soft exercise to
try.
And we started seeing like very fast improvements
(52:29):
in my own dog, his reactivity.
And also during our forest walks, something that
I hadn't been able to target with other
reactivity training protocols, because it's just like something
that like it's very difficult to imitate in
training situations that the dogs surprise you as
(52:50):
well when they appear.
And with movement puzzles, the behavior is set
up exercises like very mindfully adjusting the direction
of the puzzles, also the trigger dogs and
creating different situations during the setups.
And she actually ran the first movement puzzles
(53:13):
reactivity special course in March or started in
March.
And she's seeing very quick and incredible results
with her students as well, who are using
movement puzzles or these pattern exercises with helper
dogs essentially.
And so it's pretty awesome.
(53:34):
So it's not necessarily movement puzzles themselves helping
with reactivity, but using movement puzzles for reactivity
training and trigger setups basically.
It is awesome.
It is.
And if you listen to the show, I
think it's awesome too.
And you are wanting to go and learn
more and look at this reactivity course or
(53:57):
some of the other great offerings that you
have online, because you are in Estonia and
most of us aren't, and you want to
learn from Mari, or maybe you're in Estonia,
you can go visit Mari.
Where can people go online to find you,
to find movement puzzles and to learn more?
Our website is themovingcanine.com.
(54:20):
You can also find me on Instagram, the
.moving.canine, all words spelt out.
And also on Facebook, Mari Valigma, the moving
canine, so you can find us there.
Our reactivity course, if this is something that
you're specifically interested in, then this is a
brand new thing.
So we haven't really put it out so
(54:43):
widely yet, but it's like both me and
the behaviorist who is teaching this class, we
are super excited that you can actually use
this concept that I first developed for coordination
and body awareness, and now they are using
to help dogs feel more comfortable near other
(55:03):
dogs, or when they are seeing other dogs,
which is a really huge win, to be
honest.
However, it shouldn't be that surprising, because also
in humans, it's known that body awareness and
balance exercises can help with the behavior challenges.
(55:25):
I'm missing the human word for this now,
but like, for example, with like overcoming traumatic
events and things like that.
Resilience?
Maybe, but it's like basically like when people
are anxiety, basically, anxiety and past traumatic events.
So it is helpful in human therapy.
(55:47):
Therapy is the word that I was looking
for.
That's where I was landing as well.
We will link to all of this in
the show notes.
So thank you so much for sharing everything
with us today, Marty.
Sadly, that does bring us one more question
for this episode, because I love asking people
this question, and I've never asked an engineer
from Estonia before, and someone who's focused on
(56:09):
movement puzzles.
So I'm really curious, as you sit there
in Estonia and you run your business and
you engage online, like what's your vision for
the future in our evidence-based values-driven
practice?
What do you want to see happen over
the next 5-10 years in our industry?
(56:30):
Well, I would very selfishly say that I
would want to see more recognition of how
our dogs' physical well-being, and here I
don't mean just like physical health or like
our dogs seeing a vet regularly and having
like a good blood test results, but I
(56:52):
mean like good coordination, good balance, good body
awareness, because over the years I've seen how
much it affects the dog's behavior.
It's also when I started looking into this,
it's also linked to the nervous system, because
like for training coordination and balance, you are
training the nervous system, which is the same
(57:14):
one that works with behavior as well.
You also engage the same areas in the
brain, for example, coordination is processed in the
same brain areas as the ability to make
logical connections.
So I would like to see more of
that applied in all of dog training or
(57:36):
it becoming part of basically foundation training, not
just for sport dogs, because for sport dogs
it is becoming quite common that they are
doing different body awareness and coordination exercises, but
for all dogs.
And for example, in human children, proprioception is
often called a need, that the learner needs
(58:00):
proprioceptive feedback from the environment.
And for example, kids who are very boisterous
with their movements or very forceful with the
movements and run into things, they are, as
I understand it, they are often trying to
communicate their need for proprioceptive input, and they
(58:20):
really benefit from doing these exercises that focus
on applying their strength and coordinating their movements
and balancing.
And if we think about dogs, then we
have so many different games for our kids
to learn these skills, and we have very
few for our dogs.
And I think that it should become more
(58:40):
as a norm when raising dogs as family
members.
And I think that you can prevent a
lot of problems by paying attention to this
area as well, that there are like, there
are coordination, balance and proprioception needs.
(59:02):
And it's the same for humans as well.
Makes me think about, let's say we're considering
a dog who has behaviours like your dog,
Mari, that we label as reactive, and then
we're thinking about the most positive, least intrusive
intervention to help us with that challenge.
(59:24):
And we look at a tool like Susan
Freeman's hierarchy of behaviour change interventions according to
the most positive, least intrusive, effective alternative.
And then the first turn off on that
is meeting needs and wellness.
And so often I think maybe we enter
the hierarchy higher up thinking about positive reinforcement
(59:49):
and what behaviours we're going to train, but
if we can add the consideration of proprioception
and confidence that comes from being able to
move your body effectively in a variety of
different contexts, and then potentially that will serve
(01:00:14):
as a least intrusive option for many individuals.
That's exciting.
Yes.
Yes, it is.
Plus it also, it makes like all the
next steps a lot easier.
Once your dog feels super comfortable in their
body, it's like teaching other new skills will
be so much easier because otherwise your dog
(01:00:36):
has to learn how to use his body
anyway.
But then if you don't pay attention to
it separately, then your dog will have to
basically like multitask when you are trying to
teach something.
They are like trying to understand the criteria,
trying to understand how to use their body
at the same time, and it slows down
the learning.
But like, I can't remember what we were
(01:00:58):
talking about in the beginning of this podcast,
but you mentioned something similar that when your
dog is already like knows how to use
his body, then it's like you can quickly
teach the other criteria and the thinking parts
of like different exercises, because your dog doesn't
have to focus anymore on like, oh, how
(01:01:20):
am I going to solve this physically?
Because they're like, yeah, I have the solution.
Now I just have to understand what I
should be doing here.
Exactly.
Yeah.
It's like, to give an example, I was
running into some issues on my website, and
so I've been working with a developer for
six, seven months to try to figure out
(01:01:43):
what's going on.
We finally figured out it's due to one
specific page and some of the features being
used on that page and what they require
from the server, and if a visitor visits
that page, it's overwhelming the server.
So we've identified that now, but that has
been an open, like if you think about
it, like your browser, like that has been
an open tab in my mind for like
(01:02:05):
six months, you know, and every time I'm
making a business decision, like I've got six
or seven, probably more than like 60 or
70 open tabs in my mind, you know,
and my goal is always to shut down
some tabs.
Like people, when I share my browser screen
in Zoom, people are like, oh my God,
(01:02:26):
I can't believe how many tabs you have
open on your browser.
I'm like, yeah, it's kind of like my
mind.
So it's kind of like closing some tabs
down in your dog's mind to free up
some space and to create this overwhelm.
People get overwhelmed by having too many tabs
open.
Yeah, and also, for example, the clearest example
(01:02:51):
of this has been some of our students
who do nose work with their dogs, and
they say that after they started doing movement
puzzles, their dogs become a lot more efficient
in their searches, and I suspect that partly
this is because the dog is then, can
focus more on the search itself, not like
how am I going to navigate this area,
(01:03:14):
because like nose work dogs often work in
very tricky areas, and the dogs then, once
they've done movement puzzles, they can focus on
the search and following order without like thinking
that this part of the area looks dodgy.
I don't, I'm not sure I can go
in there or if I can fit there,
but after having done movement puzzles, they're like,
(01:03:34):
yeah, I can totally do this.
I'll go there to find the doors.
That makes a lot of sense.
It has been so much fun, Mari, from
myself and on behalf of everyone listening, we
really appreciate you taking the time to come
and hang out with us.
Thank you for having me.
You're very, very welcome.
Thank you so much.
(01:03:56):
And thank you so much for listening as
well.
This is your host, Ryan Cartlidge, signing off
from this episode of the Animal Training Academy
podcast show.
We hope today's conversation inspired you and equipped
you with new tools for your trainer's toolbox.
Remember, every challenge in training is an opportunity
(01:04:18):
to learn and sharpen your animal training geekery.
Embrace the rough patches, learn from them and
keep improving.
And don't forget, the path to growing your
skills and expanding your knowledge continues beyond this
episode.
Visit www.atamember.com to join our supportive
(01:04:43):
membership, where you will find a community of
just like you.
Together, we're making a huge positive difference in
the lives of animal and human learners worldwide.
Until next time, keep honing your skills, stay
awesome.
And remember, every interaction with an animal or
(01:05:05):
human learner is your opportunity to create ripples.
We're here cheering you on every step of
the way.
See you at the next episode.
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